View Full Version : Bring back the FEAR! (and Immersion)
I'd love TR to unashamedly go back to its roots of fear, survival, immersion and even horror
Let's really crank up the scariness level.
TRA gave it a go but it held back on blood and realism. The game featured loads and loads of cutscene introductions for anything potentially scary too, instead just let horrendous creatures jump out at you from random corners.
My point is this: less cut scenes, make ICs playable and increase the fear/realism.
Here's a scenario which explains what I'm trying to suggest for the next TR game:
Lara (the player) is walking through an Avalonian temple. The gentle sound of the bell tolling from the belfry above is accompanied by the occasional cawing sound from the crows sitting on the rafters.
Everything looks so perfect and still...just like the perfect tale you'd read about avalon.
Lara (the player) calmly proceeds to approach the altar on which the item sits shrouded in iridescent light. This is what Lara (the player) had been searching for to proceed to the next part of level all this time. Its so close. Its within reach and just as you pick up the item -
BAM!
Suddenly multitudes of disfigured monsters, oozing black slime smash their way through the stained glass windows. Lara (the player) has to think fast. The monsters continue to approach with the intent to devour, their eyes glow red from their mass of black slimy and matted fur.
There are pistols at her (the players) disposal and with at least 20 of these things, the chances of fighting them all and surviving the battle are nil.
Then she (the player) spots the route of salvation. Climbing up onto the altar itself she makes a huge leap of faith and grabs one handed onto one of the temple rafters.
The monsters look around for their escaped prey. It seems as if Lara is safe. But if she makes any noise, they'll know of her presence...
She creeps and shimmies along the rafters...if she can just make it to entrance without making any noise she can slip out unscathed.
The avalonian predators continue to search for their meat but it is proving fruitless.
Lara (the player) is now within distance of the entrance when the rafter Lara (the player) are shimmying along, snaps and brings Lara (the player) crashing to the ground.
The temple falls silent and then a moment later the foundations of the building begin to shake...monsters all turn to Lara's direction and give chase and rubble begins to fall from ceiling. That rafter was one of the temple's main supports!
Sprinting to the entrance, Lara (the player) bolts through the open door and continues running. A huge unearthly scream resounds from the temple and as Lara turns around to look behind her, the temple is a crumpled heap of rubble.
~
Please note that all of what you've read above would/could be playable
I know I'm not much of a fanfiction writer but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm trying to put across with this short story. In Anniversary, there wasn't usually an option to escape and even if Lara got killed, the death felt completely sanitised thereby removing any fear of death one would usually have.
The survival/horror element whereby the player felt as if they were the ones hanging by their fingertips to stay alive against the odds like the story described above hasn't been with TR games since TR4.
And also, note the randomness of events with the rafter unexpectedly snapping off and all the monsters being killed at once as the temple roof falls in and crushes them.
I think this would make a good introduction to Avalon - that feeling of perfectness, prettiness and awe suddenly being replace by shock, fear and bewilderment followed by relief and a feeling of satisfaction as you overcome the odds to stay alive.
One last thing, I've made a point of saying "Lara (the player)" because it seems that more and more, that the developers and only consider how Lara would react and what Lara would do. (Interactive cutscenes epitomise that feeling of only Lara being the one that is clinging onto life).
Well, that's all from me, hopefully I've made a decent case for bringing back the spine tingling fear and immersion that seems to have been missing for so long and with next gen approaching - this could become a reality.
lara_fanatic
26-06-07, 14:45
Wow! I can just see myself playing that part. And yes I would be scared. I like how in all the other tomb raiders...animals and stuff would pop out at you and make you jump..enough to almost drop the controller like me. But yes I agree with you and I hope that CD does bring that back.
Laras Backpack
26-06-07, 14:47
I really don't know what to add except ITA! :tmb: :tmb:
I totally agree that a tense gameplay experience has been in TRs 1-4 to some degree and that even without the blood, impailing or with the death blackouts the game can still have that tension and sense of fear. Additionaly, I also agree that these scenarios can be 100% playable and if done well could really elevate TR as a leading brand name in action adventure again.
lara_fanatic
26-06-07, 14:57
I'd love TR to unashamedly go back to its roots of fear, survival, immersion and even horror
Let's really crank up the scariness level.
TRA gave it a go but it held back on blood and realism. The game featured loads and loads of cutscene introductions for anything potentially scary too, instead just let horrendous creatures jump out at you from random corners.
My point is this: less cut scenes, make ICs playable and increase the fear/realism.
Here's a scenario which explains what I'm trying to suggest for the next TR game:
Lara (the player) is walking through an Avalonian temple. The gentle sound of the bell tolling from the belfry above is accompanied by the occasional cawing sound from the crows sitting on the rafters.
Every looks so perfect and still...just like the perfect tale you'd read about avalon.
Lara (the player) calmly proceeds to approach the altar on which the item sits shrouded in iridescent light. This is what Lara (the player) had been searching for to proceed to the next part of level all this time. Its so close. Its within reach and just as you pick up the item -
BAM!
Suddenly multitudes of disfigured monsters, oozing black slime smash their way through the stained glass windows. Lara (the player) has to think fast. The monsters continue to approach with the intent to devour, their eyes glow red from their mass of black slimy and matted fur.
There are pistols at her (the players) disposal and with at least 20 of these things, the chances of fighting them all and surviving the battle are nil.
Then she (the player) spots the route of salvation. Climbing up onto the altar itself she makes a huge leap of faith and grabs one handed onto one of the temple rafters.
The monsters look around for their escaped prey. It seems as if Lara is safe. But if she makes any noise, they'll know of her presence...
She creeps and shimmies along the rafters...if she can just make it to entrance without making any noise she can slip out unscathed.
The avalonian predators continue to search for their meat but it is proving fruitless but suddenly.
Lara (the player) is now within distance of the entrance when the rafter Lara (the player) are shimmying along, snaps and brings Lara (the player) crashing to the ground.
The temple falls silent and then a moment later the foundations of the building begin to shake...monsters all turn to Lara's direction and give chase and rubble begins to fall from ceiling. That rafter was one of the temple's main supports!
Sprinting to the entrance, Lara (the player) bolts through the open door and continues running. A huge unearthly scream resounds from the temple and as Lara turns around to look behind her, the temple is a crumpled heap of rubble.
~
Please note that all of what you've read above would/could be playable
I know I'm not much of a fanfiction writer but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm trying to put across with this short story. In Anniversary, there wasn't usually an option to escape and even if Lara got killed, the death felt completely sanitised thereby removing any fear of death one would usually have.
The survival/horror element whereby the player felt as if they were the ones hanging by their fingertips to stay alive against the odds like the story described above hasn't been with TR games since TR4.
And also, note the randomness of events with the rafter unexpectedly snapping off and all the monsters being killed at once as the temple roof falls in and crushes them.
I think this would make a good introduction to Avalon - that feeling of perfectness, prettiness and awe suddenly being replace by shock, fear and bewilderment followed by relief and a feeling of satisfaction as you overcome the odds to stay alive.
One last thing, I've made a point of saying "Lara (the player)" because it seems that more and more, that the developers and only consider how Lara would react and what Lara would do. (Interactive cutscenes epitomise that feeling of only Lara being the one that is clinging onto life).
Well, that's all from me, hopefully I've made a decent case for bringing back the spine tingling fear and immersion that seems to have been missing for so long and with next gen approaching - this could become a reality.
What if they took out IC's all together?
ICs are a unnatural barrier between the player and the enviroment.
They break suspension of disbelief and don't belong in Tomb Raider.
When I see IC's in a game, I just think AI and gameplay desing have failed. THe developer could create the gamplay mechanics to make it possible in game. TR should be completely in real time (except FMVs/Cutscenes) ICs are a step backward for gaming imo. Half Life 1/2 showed how to do a game without them.
Good AI and Good Gameplay/Physics/Controls are the cure to IC's. I don't like when stuff is canned and preset, it end supension of disbelief.
Lara's interaction with the enviroment should be real time and physical. I should be able to literally feel it!!
Sara Croft
26-06-07, 15:24
YES!:tmb:
NOTHING is like running in fear.. I really miss that and hope for it to return! :]
I agree that we should be able to experience most crucial moments by ourselves again instead of just having them shown to us (this includes ICs - despite allowing some kind of interaction, they still break the bond between Lara and the player. I never feel like I'm the one in danger, I just want to get it over with so I can regain control).
As for the fear aspect, I don't know. I would've liked most enemies to be 'introduced' in normal gameplay as well, just attacking you out of a dark corner or something, but overall I think TRA had a good level of creepiness. Let's not forget this isn't Resident Evil, but a shock moment every now and then is a good way to keep the players on the edge of their seats.
I think there was too much natural light in TRA (almost every room had direct sunlight). I would prefer adventuring deep underground :)
Also: this kind of checkpoint systems take away much from the fear factor. "I've died-so what? :) fast reload and now i would know what should i had prepared for"
Fear must persue Lara (the player) all the way through corridors and chambers. And I think battue with some monsters is cool stuff. When Lara is running the creatures must follow her and if she makes a wrong move they must jump over her back and tear her apart. But she should be able to accidently change the direction of the pursuit, so she can mixed them up.
She must have the ability to hide and to attack unnoticed - stealth. If she makes it too loud or at too lighten spot she should attract the attention of the whole pack and strategy will be ruined, causing her to suffer :mis:.
The opponents should dash from dark corners and niches and the music at this exact moment should go - BOOM. The music is the one shaking.
When hurting Lara must groan in Pain - Crying as in Tartarus, making the player do anything not to hear that again!!!!! :mis:
That would cause less desire of deaths!!! HAHAHAHAHA
so the surprises would be more!!!!
ThomasCroft
26-06-07, 18:28
Wait wait wait. I love Splinter Cell (even though Conviction looks crap but still) and I love Tomb Raider. SC should stay SC and TR should stay TR. What I am saying is, don't include stealth UNLESS it is optional like in TRAOD.
Back on topic, I also agree with you guys; ICs destroy atmosphere and break my immersion in the game. They're like little breaks from the game, and certainly destroy the fear factor.
Can any of us truly say we were terrified like in TR1 when the T-Rex appeared in TRA?
Can any of us truly say we were terrified like in TR1 when the T-Rex appeared in TRA?
No, but i wouldnt had been terrified if it appears on the other way either So i prefer the cutscene version because this way i could see the fear at Lara's face :)
Just thought I'd add (if I haven't already) that I think that TRA was a step in the right direction. The game nailed most of the aspects that I love about TR. This is actually the one subject (and perhaps tightening up Lara's movement so it feels less flimsy) that I feel needs looking at for the next game.
Avalon has so much potential for real "out-there" moments and the unexpected, I think. :)
Fantastic, really fantastic :tmb:
I was on the edge of my seat throughout your example Tom, and I really hope they can conjour up something even half as exciting as that in the future :tmb:
I like it best when I am bimbling along and some toothy beastie jumps out at me!
I didnt like the IC's as invariably an interactive one popped up after a hard bit where I was having a little rest or a drink and suddenly had to jump up and press buttons!!
:cln::cln:
I don't know, lol. If a future TR was as scary as TRII (:yik:) I don't know if I could play it!!!! SSSCCCAAARRRY! :vlol:
I agree ramp up the fear please.
Definitely I think IC are a second rate experience compared to "living" it yourself through real time interaction with the virtual world. Instead of thinking - "Omg panic! There's a stomping T. rex behind me, argh - what do I do, where shall I go, have I enough bullets..." The encounter is changed to a mini-game segment with a trick (but enjoyable) move to beat it.
It's not really about imagining yourself facing a terrifying beast, it's about how to solve a semi-puzzle fight out scenerio that is blatanty artificial. I'm not saying it isn't enjoyable, but it's less real, less immersive, more "sonic beating the end level robot-boss" kind of play, than attempting to simulate a genuine experience in order to create an emotional response.
I also miss the little touches they used to have in some games, that added so much.
I remember in TR4 hearing that bull for the first time in the Tomb of Semerkhet rattling the doors and headbutting things out of sight... terrifying!!!!
And seeing the gooey thick red blood turning to sand as they entombed Set under all those spikes... And wondering who it was and what was going on.
And pulling a bloody corpse off a grate as part of a puzzle... :eek:
...
...
I miss things like that too.
These touches weren't necessarily terrifyingly scary, but they added to the ambience and tension generally. TR seemed much maturer in some ways before. Now it's very "emotional" but hardly feels adult to me. It looks more realistic yet feels more cartoon... in some ways.
I loved the TR:AE exciting ICs, hope they continue in LegendII
I agree ramp up the fear please.
Definitely I think IC are a second rate experience compared to "living" it yourself through real time interaction with the virtual world. Instead of thinking - "Omg panic! There's a stomping T. rex behind me, argh - what do I do, where shall I go, have I enough bullets..." The encounter is changed to a mini-game segment with a trick (but enjoyable) move to beat it.
It's not really about imagining yourself facing a terrifying beast, it's about how to solve a semi-puzzle fight out scenerio that is blatanty artificial. I'm not saying it isn't enjoyable, but it's less real, less immersive, more "sonic beating the end level robot-boss" kind of play, than attempting to simulate a genuine experience in order to create an emotional response.
I also miss the little touches they used to have in some games, that added so much.
I remember in TR4 hearing that bull for the first time in the Tomb of Semerkhet rattling the doors and headbutting things out of sight... terrifying!!!!
And seeing the gooey thick red blood turning to sand as they entombed Set under all those spikes... And wondering who it was and what was going on.
And pulling a bloody corpse off a grate as part of a puzzle... :eek:
...
...
I miss things like that too.
These touches weren't necessarily terrifyingly scary, but they added to the ambience and tension generally. TR seemed much maturer in some ways before. Now it's very "emotional" but hardly feels adult to me. It looks more realistic yet feels more cartoon... in some ways.
I generally agree with all of that!
There was something that felt alot more Epic, Mature and Serious about old TRs. I didn't need lots of cheesy dialogue.
They were more like a blockbuster movie or adult sci-fi. Legend/TRA feel a bit more like a cheapy melodramatic TV series (Buffy, Charmed, Stargate, Relic Hunter etc etc)
There should be no barrier between the player and interacting with the enviroment. Thats fine with bosses in a cartooney platformer but it seriously takes away from the experience in a game like Tomb Raider. IC's are just boring, break the suspension of disbelief and take control of Lara away from the player.
I prefer a 'take the gloves off' approach to gaming!
Fantastic, really fantastic :tmb:
I was on the edge of my seat throughout your example Tom, and I really hope they can conjour up something even half as exciting as that in the future :tmb:
Wow, thanks! I really wasn't expecting any feedback as positive as that.
I agree ramp up the fear please.
Definitely I think IC are a second rate experience compared to "living" it yourself through real time interaction with the virtual world. Instead of thinking - "Omg panic! There's a stomping T. rex behind me, argh - what do I do, where shall I go, have I enough bullets..." The encounter is changed to a mini-game segment with a trick (but enjoyable) move to beat it.
It's not really about imagining yourself facing a terrifying beast, it's about how to solve a semi-puzzle fight out scenerio that is blatanty artificial. I'm not saying it isn't enjoyable, but it's less real, less immersive, more "sonic beating the end level robot-boss" kind of play, than attempting to simulate a genuine experience in order to create an emotional response.
I also miss the little touches they used to have in some games, that added so much.
I remember in TR4 hearing that bull for the first time in the Tomb of Semerkhet rattling the doors and headbutting things out of sight... terrifying!!!!
And seeing the gooey thick red blood turning to sand as they entombed Set under all those spikes... And wondering who it was and what was going on.
And pulling a bloody corpse off a grate as part of a puzzle... :eek:
...
...
I miss things like that too.
These touches weren't necessarily terrifyingly scary, but they added to the ambience and tension generally. TR seemed much maturer in some ways before. Now it's very "emotional" but hardly feels adult to me. It looks more realistic yet feels more cartoon... in some ways.
You've nailed it there with how I feel about this aspect of TR :tmb:
i dont agree whit less cutscenes, i like them, i like to watch the historry, very better tham the old games whem you just play and dont get what is going on... if you dont want to see it just skip...
and i agree what you said about fear and she on altar and bam! i like this
this is a good thing in the old game, and should be back..
What I would like is just small little thing like stone falling and scary noise. TRA was very a good improvement compared to Legend but we need to cut those cinematic like the T-Rex. It would be much scary if the T-Rex would come out of a waterfall instead of a cutscene. ;)
Lam, i like the cutscenes, the t-rex too, is so jurassic park...
but i agree whit you!
it token the felling of "AHHHHH HOLY SH** A T-REX MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNN"
the cutscenes make less surprise, before you already know that something is going to happen.. whitout them you are just exploring..
i also think the monsters first entry could perfectly be playable, and later on,.. like in tr1, a cutscene showing what are the mosnters about... i do like cutscenes... i dont wantem gone... but you are all right,.. they should add some more fear factor to the game... it lacks of it...
well.. thinking about t-rex
that should be...
you are in lost valley.. so... BUM, BUM, the earth shakes, and you se the monster roar into your face... well.. every player would be spoked whit this.. so after that you run from t-rex or become food.. and a lot of velociraptors run whit you.. its not a cutscene... so when you back to the place that you slide.. the cutscene starts like was in tra..
that would keep the cutscenes and make fear!
silver_wolf
27-06-07, 07:31
Make TR the ultimate combination between TR/Silent Hill!!!! That would be my dream come true. Dammit,CD,SCARE ME!!!
donttouchmyuzis
27-06-07, 22:21
I don't like the playable scenes myself. With the T-Rex and Larson, I kinda felt like...wow, they're playing for me...I mean, I wanted to beat up Larson myself! And a cut-scene is so rewarding after the player has done all the work themselves. Like, you almost get killed by Larson, but finally he falls and the cut-scene starts...I love that feeling of "shew, it's over--I rock!"
TRA did have its scary moments, but the cutscenes did take away some potential for ultimate fear. Imagine how that part with Qualopec could had been, had we actually been playing. If we took the scion ourselves, and Qualopec started rising...then for us to run out of the room and the rubble to fall after us, blocking him in. And while your running back down the passage, you can hear him trying to break the obstruction down, like that bull in LR...
Honestly the scene itself scared me enough, but if that had happened, I really would have been running!
I don't think TR's induced fear is about horror and,sincerely,I don't think that's TR. Disfigured monsters,etc are,in my opinion,a cheap, un-creative and easy way to provoke not fear,but strong scares. It means nothing.
TR hits our nerves because it deals with the fear of the unknown,with the feeling of loneliness in the middle of a place that might be ultra calm,but that you don't know. It doesn't matter if the enemies are natural or not,it matters you know you can only count with yourself ( and Zip and Alistar :D).But even in such moments,you're surrounded by beauty,by positive things: you're not there to pass the entire game scared of your shadow,but exploring,admiring the sets: Lara is an explorer,after all.
Ugly monsters emerging in Avalon not only is out of context ( ghostly warriors, faeries,etc are much more according to the myth)as, in my opinion, fails to add something to TR.
well the t-rex ic is fine, just scrull the fear, but is fine..
but i hate so much the larsons death...
I don't think TR's induced fear is about horror and,sincerely,I don't think that's TR. Disfigured monsters,etc are,in my opinion,a cheap, un-creative and easy way to provoke not fear,but strong scares. It means nothing.
TR hits our nerves because it deals with the fear of the unknown,with the feeling of loneliness in the middle of a place that might be ultra calm,but that you don't know. It doesn't matter if the enemies are natural or not,it matters you know you can only count with yourself ( and Zip and Alistar :D).But even in such moments,you're surrounded by beauty,by positive things: you're not there to pass the entire game scared of your shadow,but exploring,admiring the sets: Lara is an explorer,after all.
Ugly monsters emerging in Avalon not only is out of context ( ghostly warriors, faeries,etc are much more according to the myth)as, in my opinion, fails to add something to TR.
I understand the points you make but it feels as if you're main gripe with the proposal I made was more about my choice of the enemies that Lara had to face. To be honest, that was the last thing I had considered - I just wrote that whole scenario out without prior consideration.
The issue I had at mind is how can Crystal put both the player and Lara in a scenario which may well have been an IC but can instead be a fully playable yet an exciting and cinematic experience. Note also that I did at least try to emphasise the beauty and awe that surrounded the temple Lara was in. Up until that point Lara had been exploring a place which seemed relatively safe.
Just to be clear, my intention was not to propose that Tomb Raider goes entirely into the horror genre but it is clear that if you look back on games such as TR1, TR2, TR3, TR4, TR5 and AOD, Horror elements were present at certain times during the game.
Examples:
TR1: Atlantis - pulsating walls, skinless mutants, those unearthly screeches I mentioned and of course creatures waiting for you just around the corner...
TR2: So many jumpy moments and situations which induce fear.
Tibet had that infamous Yeti room where you were in complete darkness and all that you could hear were the screams of yetis. Cut to turning on the lights and they're all rampaging towards you!
Who could forget the spider cave in Temple of Xian?
And also what about floating islands? that fantasy element which made anything seem possible. Just that very concept made me wonder what was going to happen next.
And finally Home Sweet Home. Racing to the gun cupboard to pick up as much ammunition as possible before the mafia reaches your bedroom to take the dagger from you. The shear sense of panick and vulnerability of being in your own home and unarmed/with very limited items really came across I think.
TR3: Plenty of jump out of your seat moments but not so much in the way of scenarios like TR2. I found the Antarctica levels with those mutants a bit creepy and also when you enter that temple room in India with Randy and Rory's bodies both suspended in the air bloody and slashed up.
TR4: My memory is hazier in this game but still I remember the clearly the strong elements of fantasy. The bull that chases you, the skeletons that come alive at random moments, those floaty fireball things that chase you around (oh and those scarab beetles!). There's a lot of being chased around in this game, I think :p
The TR-ish elements were also very strong in this game which heightened any potential sense of fear.
TR5: This game had a few standout moments.
The 3 headed dragon, The laser eyed thing (:o) and those giant hammer wielding people (:o) were all fantasy elements that represented meeting the unexpected.
But I think the levels which everyone will remember in TRC is the Ireland levels. Unarmed, chased by demented demon babies who made a horrendous noise and coming across the undead (the man hanging on the tree comes to mind) featured strongly.
TR:AOD: This game made more of an apparant effort to bring up darker and more disturbing themes but was still not really that much scarier than the TRs that came before it (I believe this was to make the game a T rated game). A murder scene plays out before your eyes and the next few levels have the player on the run from the police. The cautiousness associated with avoiding the police gradually turns to fear as Lara and Kurtis go further into this world of the occult and nephilim. Mutations walk the hallways, undead creatures lurk in Tombs and the ongoing story itself of the monstrum killing people off adds to it.
However, despite this game borderlining the horror genre, this is also the first TR game that seems to feel as if all the best potential jump-out-of-your-seat moments were carried out through cutscenes. I just think something was a bit off but still I think this game is worthy of a mention when it comes to horror elements.
TR:Legend: This game really went all out...to be family friendly. The flashback level did at least see a return to the (semi)playable scenario of Lara trying to escape fluffy. The headed monster in the England levels (and the england levels themselves) was somewhat more tense than previous levels but overall, even the most hardened fans of TR:Legend can surely admit that the game was missing any form of tense, let alone fearful atmosphere.
TR:Anniversary: A return to form of sorts that sees the elements described from TR1 duplicated here...however those elements are evidently watered down. Thankfully, the atmosphere is still there with the fabulous soundtrack. However, this game also seems to be the least immersive when it comes to "scenarios". Most of the potentially exciting scenarios of the game are played out via interactive cutscenes which felt like a cop-out.
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