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tranniversary119
19-09-07, 23:21
I really do have faith there is a god. How about you? Doesn't matter what religion either. And i don't mean this to be offensive to anyone in any way. ;)
- I mean the earth was made so perfect. The planets all revolve around the "sun". Are bodies are made perfectly. Well how they work.

Izzie404
19-09-07, 23:22
:rolleyes: Does this normally happen once a month? I remember seeing at least three of these threads earlier.
I, personally, have faith in God/Christ.

RAID
19-09-07, 23:23
I do believe there's a God, but I'm not a religion obsessed.

tranniversary119
19-09-07, 23:24
:rolleyes: Does this normally happen once a month? I remember seeing at least three of these threads earlier.
I, personally, have faith in God/Christ.

Doesn't hurt to renew the topic. :)

Draco
19-09-07, 23:24
I believe that if you believe in something...it is as good as reality for you.

I personally do not believe there is a god...at least in the context one is commonly portrayed.

Mr.Burns
19-09-07, 23:24
:rolleyes: Does this normally happen once a month? I remember seeing at least three of these threads earlier.

I've only been here a year and I've lost count how many there have been.:)

I do believe in G-d, though a slightly different interpretation.

viper456
19-09-07, 23:36
Will do what I normally do with these threads..

firstly respond: No I do not 100% believe there is a god. I sometimes do wonder but most of the time I do not believe there is one. I put this down to the fact my imagination runs away with me sometimes, nothing more.

Secondly: I run away from this thread as 9 times out of 10 it turns into a grudge match :p

trXD
19-09-07, 23:44
I dont belive in god but my parents think i do;)

tranniversary119
20-09-07, 00:01
Thanks guys for your honest opinions ;) But im just wondering What do you guys think will happen when you die? :confused:

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 00:04
No, I do not believe in God, I never will believe in God, and I will not subscribe to "faith," because faith is blind.

Legends
20-09-07, 00:09
No, not in any way.

Tomb Raider Master
20-09-07, 00:15
Yes, I do believe there is a God.

Encore
20-09-07, 00:20
I believe in a superior force of nature, possibly "intelligent", that's behind the (for me obvious) rationality of the Universe; but I think it's not fully conceiavable in human terms.
I think all religions and the way people adhere to them, demonstrates humanity's need to humanize this force and try to understand it, but I am extremely suspicious of any organized religion, because it's easy to use it to control people.
I don't think we can understand how this superior force works, except maybe by studying how the Universe itself, and the human body and mind, work.
I can't see myself adhering fully to any religion, but I am very interested (academically interested, though) in the jewish Kabbalah.



... well at least I for one gave a thoughtful answer to your question. :o

Geck-o-Lizard
20-09-07, 00:23
I do not. There have been far too many deities, religions and mythologies throughout history for any of it to make more sense than Alice in Wonderland to me.

Jensie17
20-09-07, 00:32
i do not completely believe in god.

trXD
20-09-07, 00:45
Thanks guys for your honest opinions ;) But im just wondering What do you guys think will happen when you die? :confused:

I think our bodys will stop functioning and that will be that

hera7days
20-09-07, 00:47
I don't believe in any god and when I die I'll be worm food.

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 00:50
Well, actually, there is one God I do believe in...

http://www.venganza.org/him2.jpg

Indiana Croft
20-09-07, 00:58
I believe in something that is god-like, but not bible god

Tyrannosaurus
20-09-07, 00:59
Of course there is a god. The Great Tyrant Father, who has assumed the mantle of the Tetanurae, has made the Earth for the sole purpose of the coming of his son and rightful heir to the Mesozoic. Dinosaurs gladly eat all who are beneath them, and all are beneath me.

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 01:04
Of course there is a god. The Great Tyrant Father, who has assumed the mantle of the Tetanurae, has made the Earth for the sole purpose of the coming of his son and rightful heir to the Mesozoic. Dinosaurs gladly eat all who are beneath them, and all are beneath me.

So you're saying that you're the son of God?

Zac Medley
20-09-07, 01:34
The planets all revolve around the "sun".

Prove it.

And yes, I believe that the same God who created all of creation died on a cross to take away my sin, he rose from the dead, and now he has prepared a place for me in heaven. One day he's coming back to get me and take me there. His name is Jesus.

erosan
20-09-07, 01:52
i only believe there is some higher power, but no god

vespertea
20-09-07, 03:25
Yes, I believe there is a God.

Soma Holiday
20-09-07, 03:37
I don't believe in anything. I dont practice religion of any sort, but I do hope there is something after death, it would be nice.

but instead of deciding what it is based on old texts and traditions, ima simply wait and find out what it is for myself. ;)

and don't say (well she'l find out in hell) cause thats an interpretation that may or may not be true...ill just have to see.

Mad Tony
20-09-07, 06:22
I believe in God although I'm not really a strong religious person.

NightWish
20-09-07, 06:28
Honestly I am not religious - but I respect evry religion (except the ones that believe terrirism is in favor of their god). SO I dont ESACTLY believe in god but I believe that there is some higher power and that the stories of every religion and god are besad on something true.

Admles
20-09-07, 06:58
No, I don't believe in God or any other higher power. I believe the majority of religions were invented as a way to control people without having proof / explanations of what truly goes on in the universe.

Ever seen this?

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

Interesting read. Not saying I agree with it.

Anyway thats my $0.02, I will now leave this thread :D

Soma Holiday
20-09-07, 08:02
No, I don't believe in God or any other higher power. I believe the majority of religions were invented as a way to control people without having proof / explanations of what truly goes on in the universe.

Ever seen this?

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

Interesting read. Not saying I agree with it.

Anyway thats my $0.02, I will now leave this thread :D

This is incredibly interesting haha...I'll be up for hours now reading it! I love stuff like this because my mother is a devote christian and I get tired of her putting me down because my beliefs are pretty much identical to this website.

Thanx! :D

tranniversary119
20-09-07, 10:38
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
Another great read :)

disapearing-boy
20-09-07, 10:48
I believe in a superior force of nature, possibly "intelligent", that's behind the (for me obvious) rationality of the Universe; but I think it's not fully conceiavable in human terms.
I think all religions and the way people adhere to them, demonstrates humanity's need to humanize this force and try to understand it, but I am extremely suspicious of any organized religion, because it's easy to use it to control people.
I don't think we can understand how this superior force works, except maybe by studying how the Universe itself, and the human body and mind, work.
I can't see myself adhering fully to any religion, but I am very interested (academically interested, though) in the jewish Kabbalah.



... well at least I for one gave a thoughtful answer to your question. :o

We seem to share similar views... i used to be an atheist but the idea of everything happening completely randomly was too simple for me.
I believe there is a higher deity, but not one that is all powerful and vengeful as some would have you believe... if we were created then we are needed..

The universe is so complicated at a molecular level with all those quarks, electrons, leptons.. baryons and different particles and forces doing their thing that i believe God created them as a medium to act through... he builds this complicated world of rules and must work through them.. he is not magical.. he's a scientist (hence the angel Gabriel giving the 'seek knowledge' message to man) and is relatively powerless without this world he created.

I also believe that the ancient scriptures were severely edited to produce propaghanda for certain groups and any crazy who preached about God was hailed as a prophet so i don't bother with them much... they've lost their meaning in so many ways.. religion is dangerous.. there's no doubting that.. it has power... and many people want to wield that power and exert it.

What ever force lies beyond our world is beyond our comprehension.. we can't fully understand something more complicated than ourselfs 'cos we can't transend our selves..

As for the afterlife.. we can only hope but i'll just enjoy life right now for what it is and I don't need the reward of eternal life (that's a scarily long time) to do good in this world.. i'll just do it


Of course i hope i didn't offend anyone with my views.. esp the 'God is not all-powerful' part.. it's contrary to what i was brought up to believe (went to Catholic school) but nonetheless it's my believe, so don't flame me for it.. we can have a rational debate if you like.

I'm fascinated by Buddism but don't know a whole lot about it but remain curious.. Islam has a certain appeal if you really read up on it (not the sunday newspaper version of 'jiihad' scare-mongering) but it's very strict and often dominating in some peoples lives which is a turn off for me.. i'm a total liberal at heart

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 10:56
The universe is so complicated at a molecular level with all those quarks, electrons, leptons.. baryons and different particles and forces doing their thing that i believe God created them as a medium to act through... he builds this complicated world of rules and must work through them.. he is not magical.. he's a scientist (hence the angel Gabriel giving the 'seek knowledge' message to man) and is relatively powerless without this world he created.

What ever force lies beyond our world is beyond our comprehension.. we can't fully understand something more complicated than ourselfs 'cos we can't transend our selves..

Aren't those contradictory?

Lenochka
20-09-07, 10:58
I believe there is in god :)
Though I'm not a very religious person, I haven't been to church in like 8 years etc. I just think as long as you believe and have faith you will be alright :)

Ikas90
20-09-07, 11:00
Yes, I do believe in God, and I've become more religious in the past few months. I enjoy studying the bible as I find a lot of the history particularly interesting. To me, God is the creator of everything. And btw, I'm a Christian Orthodox.

I mean the earth was made so perfect. The planets all revolve around the "sun". Are bodies are made perfectly. Well how they work.

Surely, you can say that about the planets in motion, but how about the people living on the Earth today? :)

Angel_14
20-09-07, 11:00
I'm on the 'evolution' side. They tried to force me to believe in him (or her?) and I find the whole thing unbelievable.
The funny thing is that my grandmother is Christian and my other grandmother is Jewish, so they tried to force two different religions on me at once..

Quiver.
20-09-07, 11:03
I don't believe there is a god, I am not relious. I believe in Darwin and science they have better explanations for things in life then the bible does IMO.

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 11:04
Mind you I used to be a Christian until I opened up a history book and learned that the first religion started in the age of the Neanderthal, and that the migrating peoples from Eurasia took their own beliefs and religious systems with them.

That time, logic and common sense ruled out "faith."

tr.fan
20-09-07, 11:12
I beleve that there is a God !

Zac Medley
20-09-07, 11:16
I believe in Darwin and science they have better explanations for things in life then the bible does IMO.

:vlol::vlol::vlol:

Darwin died a deeply worried man. He was not convinced of anything. Least of all his own daydreams.

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 11:17
:vlol::vlol::vlol:

Darwin died a deeply worried man. He was not convinced of anything. Least of all his own daydreams.

Therefore God exists, simply because people are "convinced"?

Maybe you ought to read a bit more Darwin on WP.

disapearing-boy
20-09-07, 11:20
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
Another great read :)

interesting read...

Aren't those contradictory?

touchè...... PARANOIA.... touchè`... i guess i should elaborate...

I just gave my opinion on what I think God is.. doesn't mean i fully understand it... i mean where did he come from, what true purpose does our creation hold.. if the world dies does God die?.. are they interdependant and to what extent.

For example.. scientists know what certain parts of the brain do.... where the memories are stored, which side is creative.. which is more logical ect.. but they don't nesscessarily know how it all works.
And they can't figure out self-awareness, consciousness, dreams...

They are baffled and they'll be the first to admit that.
Again, we can't transend our own level of consciousness to know the ins and outs of how consciousness fully works..

So i can try and grasp a concept of God but the odds of me fully inderstanding it are nil to be honest.. unless God shows himself and explains everything (but even then???) it's gut instinct and reasoning combined but nothing more.

That's what I meant
I hope i clarified my point.

Zac Medley
20-09-07, 11:21
Therefore God exists, simply because people are "convinced"?

Maybe you ought to read a bit more Darwin on WP.

Darwins convictions, or lack therof, have no bearing on the existence of God. I read "The origin of Species," and I was very impressed, but it only consists of a series of anecdotal accounts about how it could be conceived that adaptation occured by natural selection.

God exists whether you believe it or not. You or I or Darwin have no power over that, no matter how strong our convictions may be.

And what is WP?

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 11:24
Darwins convictions, or lack therof, have no bearing on the existence of God. I read "The origin of Species," and I was very impressed, but it only consists of a series of anecdotal accounts about how it could be conceived that adaptation occured by natural selection.

God exists whether you believe it or not. You or I or Darwin have no power over that, no matter how strong our convictions may be.

And what is WP?

How do you know that God exists? And don't say "faith." I want "logic."

Anubis_AF
20-09-07, 11:27
Yes, I do believe in God.

But im just wondering What do you guys think will happen when you die? :confused:

Interesting question. I believe that people are judged by the their actions in this life. The truly descent ones make it to heaven. Not sure if hell exists; but perhaps a harder life than the current one for those with sins. Including the ones putting puppies in microwaves :whi:

disapearing-boy
20-09-07, 11:27
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
Another great read :)

Darwins convictions, or lack therof, have no bearing on the existence of God. I read "The origin of Species," and I was very impressed, but it only consists of a series of anecdotal accounts about how it could be conceived that adaptation occured by natural selection.

God exists whether you believe it or not. You or I or Darwin have no power over that, no matter how strong our convictions may be.

And what is WP?

I think it's Wikipedia... though it's not always a trusted source of info...

And Darwins theories are fascinating.. i agree.. and i also agree that doesn't mean there is no God. (opps.. possible double negative but i can't phrase it another way)

I saw a documentary following the history of evolution (human to be precise) and it seem so random that it was too random if you know what i mean.. like someone was pulling a few strings along the way...

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 11:29
I think it's Wikipedia... though it's not always a trusted source of info...Only in the case of vandals (a rarity, as the information gets reverted almost instantly), otherwise it's comparable to the Encyclopedia Britannica.

I saw a documentary following the history of evolution (human to be precise) and it seem so random that it was too random if you know what i mean.. like someone was pulling a few strings along the way...And the story of the Bible isn't random? It was written by a bunch of saints and prophets.

Zac Medley
20-09-07, 11:35
How do you know that God exists? And don't say "faith." I want "logic."

There is only faith. That is the whole point.

The Bible says that the truth about God is obvious to us all because we can see what he has made.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

It is obvious that God exists, you have no excuse.

There is no proof that there is anything after death, but we are all going to die. The Bible tells us about heaven, and what we have to do to go there. It also describes quite clearly the alternative - Hell.

We are told that if we believe the testimony of scripture: that Jesus Christ came into the world to save us from our sins. Faith is taking that promise at face value and living out our lives with the hope of that promise.

To live any other way is to live without hope, or the vain wish that we just become worm food and have no consciousness.

So now apply this logic that you want:

a) Believe the Bible, in Jesus, have everlasting life in the glory of heaven.

b) Believe in nothing, have the hope of nothing, and the very real possibility of burning in Hell for eternally.

LOGICALLY, what is the best choise? You have no proof of either, but which is the most rational decision?

disapearing-boy
20-09-07, 11:35
Only in the case of vandals (a rarity, as the information gets reverted almost instantly), otherwise it's comparable to the Encyclopedia Britannica.

And the story of the Bible isn't random? It was written by a bunch of saints and prophets.

I never said i believed in the bible.. one of my earlier posts rebuked it. I believe that life evolved... just some external deity (i'm open to all interpretations) or even aliens (lol) played a role somewhere..

Though the idea that my life is completely random is actually fascinatingly scary for me and makes it more precious and doesn't take the wonder out of the universe for me.

I'm Agnostic so i'm open to the concept that God doesn't exist.. just in this moment in time I choose to believe (albeit on my own terms) that God is real.

I don't read the bible.. i've heard enough of it in school and many people who wrote it weren't even Saints or prophets just kings who wanted to be worshiped as so and who didn't want people being more loyal to god than themselves.
It's not a historical document, fossils are.. i don't refute that.

VonCroy360
20-09-07, 12:18
No.

Thanks guys for your honest opinions ;) But im just wondering What do you guys think will happen when you die? :confused:

I believe our body just stops functioning and that's it. You don't feel anything after the moment you die.

george_croft
20-09-07, 12:24
I believe there is a light, and i do it in my own little way :)

knutroald
20-09-07, 12:26
I believe there is a light, and i do it in my own little way :)

me too

Soma Holiday
20-09-07, 12:27
My argument on this would be that claiming things like "the earth is pefect" is pointless, cause if god could make anything, why would it need a "perfect" size. Why is there any size at all? Or any planets? Why couldn't he just have a place and people that live in that place?

Plus, claiming that whether or not there's a god can be compared to whether or not there was a moon landing or that 911 was a government conspiracy is dumb because there is physical evidence that the last two are a possibility, opposed to evidence that wishes it was good.

ugh...i don't like persistence. I never try to convince people that there wrong, I just dislike the ones that are constantly speaking of how they are right.

nicola1986
20-09-07, 12:38
I think there is something though I don't really understand what, something that watches you and lifts you up when you get down and gives you strength when you need it.

I've felt this many times when I've been at my worst. Like there is something there willing me on and giving me strength. I don't understand what or who, but it's there and gives me hope.

Mona Sax
20-09-07, 14:28
Nope, sorry.
He was not convinced of anything. Least of all his own daydreams.
Daydreams? His theories are powerful and convincing enough to make sense to a whole lot of people, including most scientists. They may or may not be true, but I doubt the simple 'daydreams' of a single man would ever have that effect.
God exists whether you believe it or not. You or I or Darwin have no power over that, no matter how strong our convictions may be.
No. You believe that god exists whether we believe it or not. So far I haven't seen you prove god's existence, so treating it as an universal fact is illogical.
It is obvious that God exists, you have no excuse.
No it ain't, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people - the majority of them quite intelligent and reasonable - who don't share your faith. Besides, why should anybody need an 'excuse' for not believing in your god? I think such a statement is highly offensive since it implies that everybody else is wrong.
To live any other way is to live without hope, or the vain wish that we just become worm food and have no consciousness.
OR... people don't 'wish' (in vain, no less) for anything, but simply believe in something else than you. I could just as well say that you have the vain wish to end up in heaven - neither of us has any proof, so I won't do that. Besides, I prefer to have hope in my (very real!) life on Earth rather than an obscure afterlife I don't even know will ever come.
So now apply this logic that you want:

a) Believe the Bible, in Jesus, have everlasting life in the glory of heaven.

b) Believe in nothing, have the hope of nothing, and the very real possibility of burning in Hell for eternally.

LOGICALLY, what is the best choise? You have no proof of either, but which is the most rational decision?
I don't believe one can decide one's faith. Could you decide to believe in the ancient Roman gods, just like that, if I told you the alternative was to burn in hell for all eternity? Probably not. Even if you could, I'd prefer to believe in what I think is right and convincing, regardless of the consequences. Who's the better man - the one who follows his conscience at all times or the one who always chooses the easy way out? For me, the answer is quite clear. If your scriptures can't accept that, I guess I'll have to do without them. And honestly, I'd rather spend eternity in hell with other people who think like me than in heaven with all the guys who think their faith will undo their crimes and mistakes. Last but not least, the prospect of hell isn't all that threatening to people who don't believe in it in the first place.

Encore
20-09-07, 14:33
How do you know that God exists? And don't say "faith." I want "logic."

To ask this of a religious person is one of the most imbecile things you can do. The basic principle of most religions is that you don't need anyone to tell you that God exists, because you feel it, that's FAITH. At least that's what most religious people say to me.

To ask a religious person to not base their religion on faith, but logic, is exactly the same as asking a scientist to not base his work on logic, but faith. Get it?

Anyway I think the purpose of this thread is people explaining what they believe in, not attacking each other's beliefs. And from all people, it's those who support rationality and science that shouldn't be so intolerant. ;)

Anajrob
20-09-07, 14:39
Nope :D

KurtisLonely
20-09-07, 14:40
Nope, sorry.

Daydreams? His theories are powerful and convincing enough to make sense to a whole lot of people, including most scientists. They may or may not be true, but I doubt the simple 'daydreams' of a single man would ever have that effect.

No. You believe that god exists whether we believe it or not. So far I haven't seen you prove god's existence, so treating it as an universal fact is illogical.

No it ain't, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people - the majority of them quite intelligent and reasonable - who don't share your faith. Besides, why should anybody need an 'excuse' for not believing in your god? I think such a statement is highly offensive since it implies that everybody else is wrong.

OR... people don't 'wish' (in vain, no less) for anything, but simply believe in something else than you. I could just as well say that you have the vain wish to end up in heaven - neither of us has any proof, so I won't do that. Besides, I prefer to have hope in my (very real!) life on Earth rather than an obscure afterlife I don't even know will ever come.

I don't believe one can decide one's faith. Could you decide to believe in the ancient Roman gods, just like that, if I told you the alternative was to burn in hell for all eternity? Probably not. Even if you could, I'd prefer to believe in what I think is right and convincing, regardless of the consequences. Who's the better man - the one who follows his conscience at all times or the one who always chooses the easy way out? For me, the answer is quite clear. If your scriptures can't accept that, I guess I'll have to do without them. And honestly, I'd rather spend eternity in hell with other people who think like me than in heaven with all the guys who think their faith will undo their crimes and mistakes. Last but not least, the prospect of hell isn't all that threatening to people who don't believe in it in the first place.

I agree with you

pEhouse
20-09-07, 14:40
I don't believe in God. Life after death. Or anything like that.

I know a lot of people who use God as an excuse for things they have done.. the most recent and most stupid thing that happened was when a girl I knew cheated on her boyfriend. She told me afterwards: "I did it because God wanted me to do it!"

remote91
20-09-07, 14:48
Hmm, well personally i dont really know what to believe in :p I lack a little thing called faith

Noodleboy
20-09-07, 14:48
I don't believe in god. I believe in Darwin's theory, and no offense, but I can't believe some people don't believe in Darwin's theory.. It's such a weird thought :p

I do believe in the supernatural and all.

Dakaruch
20-09-07, 14:50
i don't believe in god, devil, heaven or hell!

for me the whole concept of religion is pointless(and don't take it offensive, this is just an oppinion, my oppinion), most of the people only believe in god, because they need to! yes they need to... it's well known that human beings need to believe that there's something that looks after them, that protects them, or some even need that concept to make the good choices in life... yes some people need god for not killing others, because they live with fear of hell!

for me god is just an escape for some people, they don't beleive in it really, they only need to believe in something...

besides that, the whole christianic religion is just a business imo... yes a business! Vatican is rich thanks to the money that people give to the church! and what do they do with it? nothing, they buy gold jewels for them, luxurious clothes and futile things like those! the Pope wears clothes that cost more than some BMW! the high priests wage is almost as high as a prime minister wage, or a president wage... they are futile imo, and the religion should not be that way...

anyone is free to beleive in what they want, i don't believe in any religion, religions are just an escape for many people, they don't really believe it ;)

Kamrusepas
20-09-07, 14:51
No.

Night Crawler
20-09-07, 14:53
Nope.

Cochrane
20-09-07, 15:01
I do not believe in any kind of god, and I don't believe in any kind of afterlife.

Zac Medley: You are getting this whole thing really wrong. Me and all the other atheists aren't the ones who need to defend their position here. You, and all the other religious people, are making the outrageous and ridiculous claims. You are the ones who say "All those things look too good to have come all by themselves, so someone has to have created this by hand". You claim that someone walked on water, and that him being nailed up made all our lifes after their natural end more pleasant.


In a way, this reminds me of something so remote to this topic that most people will probably wonder how I came up with the comparison: Apple's iPhone, and it's unlocking to work on other carriers. A large group of dedicated hackers took nearly two months to get the iPhone unlocked. The first solution required you to open the device (which is not meant to be opened except by service personell at all), cut a line on a circuit board and solder in their own switch. A final, working software unlock appeared only last week. All this for one of the mobile phone that stood most in the spotlight this year. And yet, people are looking at this whole mess and saying "Oh, it's so easy to unlock the phone. That must have been Apple's intention all along".

The morale of the story is: Just because it works does really not mean that it was ever intended.

Hybrid Soldier
20-09-07, 15:07
I do believe there's a God, but I'm not a religion obsessed.

Same here.

FourBalls
20-09-07, 15:09
No, I don't believe in God.

Mona Sax
20-09-07, 15:11
Zac Medley: You are getting this whole thing really wrong. Me and all the other atheists aren't the ones who need to defend their position here. You, and all the other religious people, are making the outrageous and ridiculous claims. You are the ones who say "All those things look too good to have come all by themselves, so someone has to have created this by hand". You claim that someone walked on water, and that him being nailed up made all our lifes after their natural end more pleasant.
To be fair, I guess to a particularly religious person, our beliefs (read, some scientific discoveries and theories) are just as outrageous and ridiculous. I think the best way to get along is to only make claims if one can actually prove them and respect other people's differing opinions. I try to never attack religions or people's beliefs - but I attack their alleged monopoly on the truth.

Encore
20-09-07, 15:17
i don't believe in god, devil, heaven or hell!

for me the whole concept of religion is pointless(and don't take it offensive, this is just an oppinion, my oppinion), most of the people only believe in god, because they need to! yes they need to... it's well known that human beings need to believe that there's something that looks after them, that protects them, or some even need that concept to make the good choices in life... yes some people need god for not killing others, because they live with fear of hell!

for me god is just an escape for some people, they don't beleive in it really, they only need to believe in something...

besides that, the whole christianic religion is just a business imo... yes a business! Vatican is rich thanks to the money that people give to the church! and what do they do with it? nothing, they buy gold jewels for them, luxurious clothes and futile things like those! the Pope wears clothes that cost more than some BMW! the high priests wage is almost as high as a prime minister wage, or a president wage... they are futile imo, and the religion should not be that way...

anyone is free to beleive in what they want, i don't believe in any religion, religions are just an escape for many people, they don't really believe it ;)

One thing is believing in a God. Another thing is believing in a particular religion. Two diferent issues..

myrmaad
20-09-07, 15:32
Don't forget that some of us believe in "intelligent design" but the idea of a man-made construct of religion dictating beliefs and practices and usurping individual power for monetary wealth and power over the masses in a kind of moral dictatorship is repulsive.

in these arms
20-09-07, 15:52
I'm Agnostic.

kooky
20-09-07, 16:00
Yes, I believe in god. :)

gotha-666
20-09-07, 16:36
i do belive in god :p buy the way im muslim :D

Rickéh
20-09-07, 16:42
No.

Cochrane
20-09-07, 16:53
To be fair, I guess to a particularly religious person, our beliefs (read, some scientific discoveries and theories) are just as outrageous and ridiculous. I think the best way to get along is to only make claims if one can actually prove them and respect other people's differing opinions. I try to never attack religions or people's beliefs - but I attack their alleged monopoly on the truth.

You're right, I just tend to get carried away when talking about this topic.

xcrushterx
20-09-07, 16:55
I'm Agnostic - I neither believe, nor disbelieve. I want there to be a god though, just so that life actually has a purpose.

tweetygwee
20-09-07, 17:29
Agnostic too. To me, science is fact, but it will never prove or disprove the existence of god. The Bible says a lot that contradicts science (but can we take those cases as symbolic instead?), and even sometimes contradicts itself. I prefer to learn what I can from any religion in order to become a better person, without actually having an opinion on whether god exists. I don't know and I don't pretend to know.

Draco
20-09-07, 17:43
There is only faith. That is the whole point.

There is only faith if you blind yourself to anything but what someone else tells you to believe.

The Bible says that the truth about God is obvious to us all because we can see what he has made.

The Bible also says to challenge god, yet somehow that only seemed to give a result in the Bible.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

And what was the original passage?

It is obvious that God exists, you have no excuse.

Odd as it might seem to you, but it tends to be the 'believers' who have to make excuses to me to defend their 'faith'.

There is no proof that there is anything after death, but we are all going to die. The Bible tells us about heaven, and what we have to do to go there. It also describes quite clearly the alternative - Hell.

Actually, Heaven and Hell only have one qualifying feature to distinguish the difference given in the Bible: You are either worshipping god for eternity, or you are without him for eternity. The second one sounds a hell of a lot better to me.

We are told that if we believe the testimony of scripture: that Jesus Christ came into the world to save us from our sins. Faith is taking that promise at face value and living out our lives with the hope of that promise.

Jesus didn't know he was the 'son of god' until he was told.

To live any other way is to live without hope, or the vain wish that we just become worm food and have no consciousness.

Who says I live without hope? While you are bowing to your great and largely insignificant baby god, I'll be living yet another life, or I may choose to simply stop existing on this plane of existence.

So now apply this logic that you want:

a) Believe the Bible, in Jesus, have everlasting life in the glory of heaven.

b) Believe in nothing, have the hope of nothing, and the very real possibility of burning in Hell for eternally.

LOGICALLY, what is the best choise? You have no proof of either, but which is the most rational decision?

Only a typical zealot believes the choices they faced were the only ones they could have faced. Neither A nor B is something I have experienced, nor will I ever experience in any of my lives.

Lavinder
20-09-07, 17:46
I believe if there is a God, then it's a very cruel God indeed. ;)

CuteKittenlol
20-09-07, 17:47
No.

NemesisxAngelus
20-09-07, 17:49
I don't believe in god. I believe in Darwin's theory, and no offense, but I can't believe some people don't believe in Darwin's theory.. It's such a weird thought :p

I do believe in the supernatural and all.

Ditto :)

tranniversary119
20-09-07, 18:33
Well, i even myselve quiestion my faith. But i mean the way everything was made and stuff. But i also have another quiestion How could anything just be there forever from the begining??? It's so confusing if you think about it.

Ways god has been in my life and my families
My grandmother had 8 kids, 2 boys, and 6 girls. And she found out she had breast cancer and the doctors told her she wasnt going to live. And my aunts and uncles were pretty young to. My aunt prayed that my grandmother lived to her 30th birthday ( my aunts birthday) My grandmother died on my aunts 30th birthday...Tell me god wasn't invovled??
My grandmother wieghed 2 pounds when she was born and babies usually didnt live back then when they were 2 pounds. Her mom took her to a priest and he told her, " Just let her die." But she didnt want to let her die and asked the priest to pray over her. My grandmother lived.. Tell me god wasn't involved with that either??
My mom was pregnant with my sister and was at church when she i guess had a miscarriage well she was bleeding im not to sure if i know the whole story i just remember my mom coming home with blood on her. The priest prayed over her. She went to the doctors and said theres a 99.9% chance my sister wasn't going to live. What happened she lived.. ???
When i go to confession and confess all my sins i feel like a new person when i'm out.??
Okay here's another thing in our mass well it was for the youth group the preist prays over you. And people fall backwards into another persons arm only to lie on the ground. My friend who passed out to the ground said she felt so good it was insane. She said she didn't care and could still here the voices...Sounds crazy i know.
Stigmata are bodily marks, sores, or sensations of pain in locations corresponding to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus..Again another thing that people conclude is fake.

I mean the signs that god gives us. There's much more proof than scientists can give you.

Jacob x5
20-09-07, 19:01
There wasn't, isn't and won't be.

Apofiss
20-09-07, 19:17
Thread's title misleads most, it should be "do you want to believe in gods" (god/s - presumption to comfort ones self) or "do you like to think that you believe in gods"... as human is able to believe in something it can sense with eyes/ears/nose/touch, the rest goes for imagination and positive self-consolation. Tell me I'm wrong :cln:

Cochrane
20-09-07, 19:30
Thread's title misleads most, it should be "do you want to believe in gods" (god/s - presumption to comfort ones self) or "do you like to think that you believe in gods"... as human is able to believe in something it can sense with eyes/ears/nose/touch, the rest goes for imagination and positive self-consolation. Tell me I'm wrong :cln:

Huh? I guess you're wrong. According to Oxford American Dictionary (the only one installed on my computer), believe is defined as:

believe |biˈlēv|
verb [ trans. ]
1 accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of : the superintendent believed Lancaster's story | [with clause ] Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
• accept the statement of (someone) as true : he didn't believe her or didn't want to know.
• [ intrans. ] have faith, esp. religious faith : there are those on the fringes of the Church who do not really believe.
• ( believe something of someone) feel sure that (someone) is capable of a particular action : I wouldn't have believed it of Lois—what an extraordinary woman!
2 [with clause ] hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose : I believe we've already met | things were not as bad as the experts believed | humu-humu are, I believe, shrimp fritters | ( believe someone/something to be) four men were believed to be trapped.

There is nothing about perceiving with senses like seeing or hearing or smelling. It's just that someone assumes that it's true.

Or am I completely missing what you are talking about?

Joe_16
20-09-07, 19:40
Another God thread. Looks like I may have started a trend.

Mict
20-09-07, 20:03
Why these questions are always singular? If there's one god, why couldn't there be more than one?

Geck-o-Lizard
20-09-07, 20:25
Because that immediately proves half of the world's religions wrong. :tea:

da tomb raider!
20-09-07, 20:28
I believe in God, but I'm not a very religious person. :wve:

Hyper_Crazy
20-09-07, 20:28
No, I don't believe that there is a god.

scion05
20-09-07, 20:31
Nope, not at all. Waist of time and they cost lives.

( God that is :D :p :D )

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 20:32
The Bible says that the truth about God is obvious to us all because we can see what he has made.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

It is obvious that God exists, you have no excuse.

You use a Bible, a religious book, to affirm the existence of God.

Get out of this thread.

xcrushterx
20-09-07, 20:34
You use a Bible, a religious book, to affirm the existence of God.

Get out of this thread.
Agreed. A book written thousands of years ago is definetaly not enough to convince me to believe 100%.

The bible itself can be 100% false and people believe it just because it says god is real.

Encore
20-09-07, 20:47
I can't believe this discussion is happening. :vlol: Oh my god the immaturity...

Betal
20-09-07, 20:58
If I believe in a god?

One word: NO

tr_mitch
20-09-07, 21:14
Nope tbh.

Elysia
20-09-07, 21:18
'Hello? Is that the Bull Store? Can I interest you in a complete Red Rag of a thread?'

You know the old adage 'never work with animals or children?' Well, there's an internet version: 'never post about religion or politics'...

In a word - I have no idea. Depends what I'm doing. When I'm depressed - probably not. When I accidently hit my thumb with a a hammer - absolutely. As Pratchett says (paraphrased) 'it's nice to have someone to blame and someone to curse at when things go wrong...'

Bowie
20-09-07, 21:22
You know the old adage 'never work with animals or children?' Well, there's an internet version: 'never post about religion or politics'...
And more people will continue to die innocently in world wars the more we fail to learn to communicate differing points of view effectively and calmly, and to disregard such obnoxious adages.

myrmaad
20-09-07, 21:24
And more people will continue to die innocently in world wars the more we fail to learn to communicate differing points of view effectively and calmly, and to disregard such obnoxious adages.

Quite profound. Probably the wisest remark on the thread.

Archetype
20-09-07, 21:27
Yes i do,

makes the most sense to me, otherwise there wouldn't be much point in getting up every morning or even existing at all.

Elysia
20-09-07, 21:30
And more people will continue to die innocently in world wars the more we fail to learn to communicate differing points of view effectively and calmly, and to disregard such obnoxious adages.
Oh, ye of such optimism... innocents have been dying in wars since humans discovered that is was fun to hit your disagreeable cave neighbour over the head with a lump of rock. We've been doing it for thousands of years, and I can't see any evidence that the Age of Aquarius is going to be starting with aplomb any time soon and that we're going to stop. Then there's the fact that this is a Tomb Raider forum, not A NATO discussion board, and so is hardly going to change world attitudes... all that happens is that people get upset with people who have different ideas and the whole thing blows up in a horrible mess (seen it so very many times before) because, ironically enough, there is always one that can't discuss differing points of view in a calm and effective manner...

(Yes, I have very little faith in the human race as a whole. Individuals are cool, but humans just suck, really...)

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 21:32
And more people will continue to die innocently in world wars the more we fail to learn to communicate differing points of view effectively and calmly, and to disregard such obnoxious adages.

War is not the answer to anything.

Except slavery, communism, Nazism, fascism, and unfair taxation.

Edit: (prepares to be called a "conservative gun nut", a "warmonger", and "do you WANT innocent people to die?" or "what if your mother was killed in an air raid?" or "PULL THE TROOPS OUT! BRING EM HOME!")

Jacob x5
20-09-07, 21:39
The argument goes something like this:

'I refuse to prove that I exist', says God, 'for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.'
'But,' says man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
'Oh dear', says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killled on the next zebra crossing.

Douglas Adams — The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. Genius. :D

PARANOIA
20-09-07, 21:39
Douglas Adams — The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. Genius. :D

I was going to bring that up, but instead of the Babelfish, I would use duct tape. :D

Sedge
20-09-07, 21:46
Yup, I do believe in God. ^_^

But I don't get these constant debates.. O.o You believe if you feel like believing, if not then not. And if someone needs proof or something, then they just won't believe and that's it. Besides, if things were proved then they wouldn't be called beliefs anymore, so.. erm? Believing in God or gods or Santa Claus or.. or.. garden imps is a matter of believing, how you feel yourself and so on, why should everything be explained? :p No one should convert or threaten anyone, of course people can be informed so they know different kinds of religions do exist, part of general education and so.. But really, no one can be forced to believe or not to believe in things, it's everyone's own, personal choice. Not everyone needs anything like that, some do.. Eh, simple? :D

Yay yay, cliché overload day yay! :gay:

Jacob x5
20-09-07, 23:00
I was going to bring that up, but instead of the Babelfish, I would use duct tape. :D

Here's a nice video to summarize. :D

dcncPpQ8loA

tranniversary119
20-09-07, 23:13
Here's a nice video to summarize. :D

dcncPpQ8loA

:rolleyes: Very sad what the worlds come to literally.

Earthcane
21-09-07, 00:47
I really do have faith there is a god. How about you? Doesn't matter what religion either. And i don't mean this to be offensive to anyone in any way. ;)
- I mean the earth was made so perfect. The planets all revolve around the "sun". Are bodies are made perfectly. Well how they work.


Erm, does anyone here watch Heroes?



Genesis [1.01]
Mohinder: Man is a narcissistic species by nature. We have colonized the four corners of our tiny planet. But we are not the pinnacle of so-called evolution. That honor belongs to the lowly cockroach. Capable of living for months without food. Remaining alive headless for weeks at a time. Resistant to radiation. If God has indeed created Himself in His own image, then I submit to you that God is a cockroach.

Melonie Tomb Raider
21-09-07, 01:29
Of course I believe there's a God. :jmp:

Melonies Homeboy
21-09-07, 01:31
I wouldnt be with that beautiful and amazing woman above me if there wasnt. :hug:

bloodstormaoa
21-09-07, 01:36
I am agnostic :wve:

Twilight
21-09-07, 01:36
sure why not. but not the way any religion describes it.

Melonie Tomb Raider
21-09-07, 01:42
I wouldnt be with that beautiful and amazing woman above me if there wasnt. :hug:

awwwwWWWwwWwWWwwWw :hug: :hug: I love you!

2kool4u
21-09-07, 01:48
of course i believe in God im a christian.

shades
21-09-07, 02:52
Well, actually, there is one God I do believe in...

http://www.venganza.org/him2.jpg

flying spaghetti monster hahah!


Well...i could talk for days and days about this. But no, I am NOT religious.

1. God either exists or doesn't. Whatever you THINK is irrelivant when it comes to something existing or not. When you think, all you do is prove you can think.

2. the more we understand about the world, god gets smaller. as more things are answered on basis of evidence rather than faith.

3. if your religious, your almost certain share the same religion of your parents. But there are so many religions and so many gods, its purely by chance that you are born into that particular religion. And of course, you think yours is the REAL one.



There is so much bueaty in the world, the very idea of god belittles it.

shades
21-09-07, 03:05
god may very well exist, but its one you haven't even dreamed of.

Since, afterall every god humanity has ever bilieved in have been invented by humans = doesn't exist.

i think if a supernatural intelligence were to exist somehow, it would be the explinations of things that we dont yet know. this is never to say, because science can't explain something, religion can - nothing can.

For example...a supernatural creator could of started our universe. but he didn't make US. he has no connection to us. We exist because of evolution. evolution works without god. god does not interveen in our lives, when you think he does. I gotta say your deluded to the core. Things act out the way they do because of the natural dynamics of matter. Miracles are just events that have happened that are extremely improbable.

vespertea
21-09-07, 03:23
flying spaghetti monster hahah!

Reminds me of Cthulu. :vlol:


2. the more we understand about the world, god gets smaller. as more things are answered on basis of evidence rather than faith.


There is so much bueaty in the world, the very idea of god belittles it.

I disagree with these points. In the past 30 years, science has made remarkable discoveries that would seem to debunk the existence of a "god" of any kind, regarding Earth as nothing more than a "pale blue dot" (a reference to the wonderful Sagan). But in more recent years, these scientific explorations are starting to come to a halt on the basis of debunking the existence of a supreme being. Take complexity, for example. The complexity of the universe--from planetary alignment, to the moon, to the Earth, to human and animal anatomy, to atomic composition--all of it is immensely and unimaginably complex. The more we dig, the more we find. For me personally, this complexity points to the possibility of an intelligent designer instead of the result of sheer happenstance (and that's only one of several reasons why I believe there's a supreme being of some sort). So, on the contrary, the explorations of science, for me, point to God instead of the lack thereof -- at least to a degree. When science fails to fulfill philosophical "gray areas," like the origin of the universe, it illuminates the significance of these unanswerable questions. When science struggles to answer these gray areas on a natural basis, that leads to me believe that they can be answered on a supernatural basis. That's my standing.

And as for God belittling beauty, I'm in complete contrast. I had never experienced the aesthetic beauty of the world in which we live until I studied the complexities of nature and the universe. It led me to believe that these complexities are a product of design, not chance, and once I reached this point, the content of the world--all things--ignited with beauty.

1. God either exists or doesn't. Whatever you THINK is irrelivant when it comes to something existing or not. When you think, all you do is prove you can think.

I actually really like that. You're right -- God exists or he doesn't. One of the few things we can prove is simply our own consciousness. This heavily reminds me of existentialism.

Zac Medley
21-09-07, 04:48
You use a Bible, a religious book, to affirm the existence of God.

Get out of this thread.

Strange, I thought I was responding to the question you asked me:

How do you know that God exists? And don't say "faith." I want "logic."

This thread is "Do you believe there is a God," yes I do.

Get out of this thread.

If you are so intolerant of other peoples opinions why are YOU in this forum?

Nope, sorry.

Daydreams? His theories are powerful and convincing enough to make sense to a whole lot of people, including most scientists. They may or may not be true, but I doubt the simple 'daydreams' of a single man would ever have that effect.

Darwin's work, and I read "The Origin of Species," I don't need Wikipedia to tell me what someone else thinks he wrote, is fascinating in many regards, but it is not scientific. He was an astute observer of the natural world and was able to IMAGINE a process by which natural selection causes adaptation and speciation. The reasoning is flawless - in his imaginary system. The major problem is that the process of evolution hangs upon one simple assumption: that the earth is millions of years old. Most scientists interpret the physical evidence on earth as supporting this ASSUMPTION. I believe that the very same evidence supports the Biblical account of the earth being about 6,000 years old (btw: I have a Master's degree in paleobotany and I have seen a good sized amount of the evidence).

Which is it? You have to use faith no matter which one you choose, "science," or the Bible.

You're right, I just tend to get carried away when talking about this topic.

My opinion does not count any more than anybody else's does, but this happens to me too.

vespertea
21-09-07, 05:03
Agreed. A book written thousands of years ago is definetaly not enough to convince me to believe 100%.

The bible itself can be 100% false and people believe it just because it says god is real.

Yes, the Bible is a religious book making all these claims about God, sovereignty, heaven, hell, sin, etc. But it serves as a highly accurate historical document. Its recounting of historical events is spot-on and precise in all of its dates and events, even though it's a thousand years old and liable for mistranslation. It's not just a bunch of laws and claims about spirituality, so it shouldn't be trudged upon as just that.

Which is why this...
You use a Bible, a religious book, to affirm the existence of God.

Get out of this thread.
...seems out of line, because it's defining the entire Bible as entirely religious, when it actually contains a plethora of historical precision. No offense to you at all, Paranoia.

kryptonite23
21-09-07, 05:05
I belive that there is only one God. :)

domina
21-09-07, 05:17
Yup, I do believe in God. ^_^

But I don't get these constant debates.. O.o You believe if you feel like believing, if not then not. And if someone needs proof or something, then they just won't believe and that's it. Besides, if things were proved then they wouldn't be called beliefs anymore, so.. erm? Believing in God or gods or Santa Claus or.. or.. garden imps is a matter of believing, how you feel yourself and so on, why should everything be explained? :p No one should convert or threaten anyone, of course people can be informed so they know different kinds of religions do exist, part of general education and so.. But really, no one can be forced to believe or not to believe in things, it's everyone's own, personal choice. Not everyone needs anything like that, some do.. Eh, simple? :D

Yay yay, cliché overload day yay! :gay:


I feel the same way about the religious debates. It just boggles my mind that folks argue over something that they will never convince the other side of, whether it's because there is no solid proof one way or the other, or because people are going to believe what they're going to believe. It'd be so cool if people could just be satisfied with their religious convictions without bashing others. Not that it will ever happen, but it would be pretty rad.

Dark Lugia 2
21-09-07, 05:23
I belive, i'm religious too :)
imo, the worlds too complicated and everything that lives in it, not to be made in the first place, we has like so many bones, and they're all in the right places, that fascinates me on it's own alot :8}
why do you's have to argue? just listen and hush up? belive what you want, if your gonna answer back then your just as bad. :\

Bowie
21-09-07, 06:46
I belive, i'm religious too :)
imo, the worlds too complicated and everything that lives in it, not to be made in the first place, we has like so many bones, and they're all in the right places, that fascinates me on it's own alot :8}
Yes, but wouldn't the creator be even MORE complicated than the universe? If something was able to create the universe, that being must be incredibly, incredibly intelligent. For example, can we complicated humans create anything that functions in a more complicated way than ourselves? (Or in other words, what is more impressive: a human being or an aeroplane?)

Richard Dawkins, who -- yes, I know -- unfortunately sometimes comes off a bit grumpy at the way atheists are scorned, is a major proponent of this logic: that why arbitrarily draw the line of existential precedence after one creator? Why not a creator of a creator? Why not stop at ten "Godly ancestors"? It all seems redundant to me.

Why not the universe be all there is?

Bowie
21-09-07, 07:03
Yes i do,

makes the most sense to me, otherwise there wouldn't be much point in getting up every morning or even existing at all.
I believe the opposite. There isn't much point in getting up every morning if you think half the world is evil. Whereas I love getting up and knowing deep down how amazing the universe is, how great life REALLY is, underneath it all, and respecting the creation, which is the only purpose for it that I can discern.

If God does arbitrarily exist, then I think God IS the universe, and I respect and adore it, and the universe will appreciate me back without having to go to lame church. I mean, the universe IS church, for me. I am eagerly embracing it every minute of every day.

It just so happens that in doing so, I follow the two most important commandments of the Bible (love "God" and your neighbour with all your heart). How blasphemous of me! :p

vespertea
21-09-07, 07:10
I believe the opposite. There isn't much point in getting up every morning if you think half the world is evil. Whereas I love getting up and knowing deep down how amazing the universe is, how great life REALLY is, underneath it all, and respecting the creation, which is the only purpose for it that I can discern.

If God does arbitrarily exist, then I think God IS the universe, and I respect and adore it, and the universe will appreciate me back without having to go to lame church. I mean, the universe IS church, for me. I am eagerly embracing it every minute of every day.

It just so happens that in doing so, I follow the two most important commandments of the Bible (love "God" and your neighbour with all your heart). How blasphemous of me! :p

That's a unique way to look at it. What a twist. :rolleyes:

Jonnipants
21-09-07, 07:43
I don't believe in a God and I'm totally unreligious.

Mona Sax
21-09-07, 09:41
Most scientists interpret the physical evidence on earth as supporting this ASSUMPTION. I believe that the very same evidence supports the Biblical account of the earth being about 6,000 years old (btw: I have a Master's degree in paleobotany and I have seen a good sized amount of the evidence).
Of course it's an assumtion, but it's one that's supported by scientific discoveries. While methods like carbon dating aren't 100% accurate, we know for a fact that the earth is much older than 6,000 years. We know the half-life periods of the known elements. We know that our own species is older than 6,000 years (homo sapiens exists since around 40,000 years), and we also know we didn't always look the way we looked now. Being a paleobotanist, you got to know that plants mutate and change (read, evolve) to adapt to their environment. The only way to match that evidence with the bible's accounts is to either see the latter's version as a metaphor or to claim that god, for whatever reason, manipulated the evidence to look much older than it actually is. Honestly, that doesn't make much sense. Even if it were true, it contradicts mankind's known and documented history. For example, the Egyptian culture can be traced back to 5500 BC (5500 + 2000 = 7500. Huh? :confused:), to the predynastic Badari era. The first pharaoh was Narmer, around 3100 BC. You're basically suggesting that the rise and fall of the dinosaurs as well as the emergence and extinction of our predecessors and countless other species happened right before those cultures' eyes - and yet they failed to mention any of that. How does any of that support the biblical account?

disapearing-boy
21-09-07, 10:07
Oh dear... this could start getting out of hand....

Many atheists are giving out about certain religious among us saying 'God is real' like it's fact and responding with 'no one can know that for sure'.. or 'prove it'....

Yet there are countless atheists here saying 'God isn't real' like it's fact...


Both sides are going no where....

Please (which ever side your on) just try to say 'I believe..' or 'in my opinion'.. just to be curtuous & respectful. Otherwise i think a mod should consider closing this unless we can all get along.

The point of this thread is to state what you believe... i don't remember the topic starter saying 'argue ad nauseam about your conflicting beliefs'.

I wonder if any one left reading here is doing so to to open their mind.. we're all just fighting back at this stage... no one is going to change anyones mind about a core belief of theirs... your just fanning the flames of an already blistering inferno.


The major problem is that the process of evolution hangs upon one simple assumption: that the earth is millions of years old. Most scientists interpret the physical evidence on earth as supporting this ASSUMPTION. I believe that the very same evidence supports the Biblical account of the earth being about 6,000 years old (btw: I have a Master's degree in paleobotany and I have seen a good sized amount of the evidence).

My opinion does not count any more than anybody else's does, but this happens to me too.

I'm wondering how you use the evidence of earth being millions of years old to say it's not?? please post a link or suggest a book or something.. i would really like to read this 'asumption' of yours.. i sincerely doubt i'll believe a word of it( I do believe in God however..).. but i'll let you try and convince me, because as you said.. you opinion counts as much as everyone elses.

Andariel
21-09-07, 10:07
no.

what made "god"?...

:rolleyes:

tranniversary119
21-09-07, 10:37
The world is evil not half it but all of it. If there was no god existence is pretty pointless.. Not to mention what else could have created the universe..

no.

what made "god"?...

:rolleyes:

That's a mystery to mankind. Well what made the universe..?

Geck-o-Lizard
21-09-07, 10:45
Please (which ever side your on) just try to say 'I believe..' or 'in my opinion'.. just to be curtuous & respectful. Otherwise i think a mod should consider closing this unless we can all get along.

There's nothing wrong with people expressing a difference of opinion, regardless of the words they choose to use. If you feel someone is behaving way out of line, use the Report Post button to flag their post for a mod to check. Please leave it to us to consider when a thread needs to be locked.

Cochrane
21-09-07, 11:48
Please (which ever side your on) just try to say 'I believe..' or 'in my opinion'.. just to be curtuous & respectful. Otherwise i think a mod should consider closing this unless we can all get along.

The point of this thread is to state what you believe... i don't remember the topic starter saying 'argue ad nauseam about your conflicting beliefs'.

I readily admit to being too aggressive in threads like these whenever they come around. Still, I think every thread should be a discussion of some sort. I cannot see a good reason for a thread where everyone just states something and then nobody discusses the issue.

The world is evil not half it but all of it. If there was no god existence is pretty pointless.. Not to mention what else could have created the universe..

I think life without a god isn't pointless at all. If there is no heavenly plan to guide me, then I am free to use my own will and abilities in a way I feel is beneficial, and can do (within reason) what I want to. If one took religion to the most extreme and said the purpose of life was, just to go to either heaven or hell (I know you didn't say that), then life itself would be pointless and could be replaced by a single divine coin being tossed.

_Lam
21-09-07, 12:19
I do not believe in God. And I think than when I will die, it will be exactly like before I came alive when I was a baby : Nothing, you don't remember.

Delakandak
21-09-07, 12:29
That is God..not god..there are gods and there is a God..

Cochrane
21-09-07, 13:29
That is God..not god..there are gods and there is a God..

What's the difference?

Geck-o-Lizard
21-09-07, 13:36
Self-importance.

Delakandak
21-09-07, 13:38
What's the difference?

There is only one God. but there are many gods..God is the most powerful and all knowing..the other gods..well people think they are channels to God..but i dont think gods are of importance..

Zac Medley
21-09-07, 14:29
Of course it's an assumtion, ...

... You're basically suggesting that the rise and fall of the dinosaurs as well as the emergence and extinction of our predecessors and countless other species happened right before those cultures' eyes - and yet they failed to mention any of that. How does any of that support the biblical account?

You have great faith, Mona. But is there any point in arguing over it? You have strong convictions and so do I - there's nothing wrong with that. I could respond at great length and address every one of your points but would it just make you angry?

In the Bible, Job Chapter 40 describes behemoth, an animal that sounds like a brontosaurus to me. It was written at about the time that the patriarch Abraham lived. As for scientific evidence that humans and dinosaurs co-existed, or that the dinosaurs were destroyed by the great flood of Noah, it is so great I don't even know where to start. I posted some time back some of the assumptions that uderpin radioisotope dating - I'll try and find it.

But is there any point? I'm weary and have no desire to a war with you. You can believe whatever you want, I don't have a problem with that.


I'm wondering how you use the evidence of earth being millions of years old to say it's not?? please post a link or suggest a book or something.. i would really like to read this 'asumption' of yours.. i sincerely doubt i'll believe a word of it( I do believe in God however..).. but i'll let you try and convince me, because as you said.. you opinion counts as much as everyone elses.

I don't think I'm up for that right now. What you don't know about me is that I'm a pretty burned out old hack who is tired of fighting. It took 38 years for me to come to solidify my convictions as I have done, and it has been hard fighting every step of the way. Modding AOD outfits is where I'm at until I can generate that old zeal and energy I once had.

The only evidence I accept as proof that the earth is billions of year old is the weariness in my bones, because most of the time I feel like I'm about 4,5 million year old.

kryptonite23
21-09-07, 14:30
Self-importance.

Not by themsleves it is selfish it ius by group-importance.

Mona Sax
21-09-07, 14:41
You have great faith, Mona.
No I don't. I just believe in what I think is probable, and if someone comes up with more convincing answers, I have no problems adapting to that. I don't think we ever stop learning, and thinking we've found the one truth would be the first step towards ignorance. If a question hasn't been answered with sufficient, reasonable evidence (like how Earth came into existence, for example, what lies beyond the universe or what comes after death), I prefer to not believe in anything at all. That doesn't mean I don't like to think about those problems, tough.
In the Bible, Job Chapter 40 describes behemoth, an animal that sounds like a brontosaurus to me. It was written at about the time that the patriarch Abraham lived. As for scientific evidence that humans and dinosaurs co-existed, or that the dinosaurs were destroyed by the great flood of Noah, it is so great I don't even know where to start. I posted some time back some of the assumptions that uderpin radioisotope dating - I'll try and find it.
Lots of stories have dragons and monsters and stuff - does that mean they all describe dinosaurs? And just imagine the impression dinos must've made on people - why would no believable historic sources mention them? Please do look for evidence that the dinosaurs drowned in Noah's flood, I'd really like to see that.

Inkheart
21-09-07, 14:47
Nope, I don't believe in God, and I can't understand how people can believe in the Bible when it's been proved it was made up by the Emporer Constantine as a way of avoiding mass war. To quote Leigh Teabing: 'Jesus was mortal one day and devine the next!'

I think that when you die, as disappointing as it may seem, nothing happens. Your conscience doesn't exist, if you will.

I leave you with a final quote from my good friend Leonardo Da Vinci: 'Oh wretched mortals, open your eyes!'

Zac Medley
21-09-07, 14:50
Lots of stories have dragons and monsters and stuff - does that mean they all describe dinosaurs? And just imagine the impression dinos must've left on people - why would no believable historic sources mention them? Please do look for evidence that the dinosaurs drowned in Noah's flood, I'd really like to see that.

OK, but be patient with me please, I go pretty slow these days. A remarkable source of information on the paradox that exist in the fossil record can be found in the work of Immanuel Velikovski, in particular the book called "Earth in Upheaval." He doesn't align himself with any particular belief system, but he pulls together a vast amount of information on many different locations where large numbers of fossils are found. He is very careful in looking at the environment of deposition in each case, and it reveals that what you may hear from the paleontologists/geologists is only part of the story.

I have written a large body of work on this subject and been beaten down time and time again, so I have some wounds that need healing before I can get back into this at full speed.

Mona Sax
21-09-07, 15:00
Velikovski had some great ideas, and IMO he did the right thing by trying to find a balance between his religion and science. However, his theories often directly contradict generally accepted sources and archeologic discoveries. He also based his work too much on stories and legends instead of serious accounts, so the scientific foundation is quite shaky. It's a bit like trying to prove Santa Claus' existence by pointing out that the character appears in several countries' folklore.

Zac Medley
21-09-07, 15:16
Velikovski had some great ideas, and IMO he did the right thing by trying to find a balance between his religion and science. However, his theories often directly contradict generally accepted sources and archeologic discoveries. He also based his work too much on stories and legends instead of serious accounts, so the scientific foundation is quite shaky. It's a bit like trying to prove Santa Clause's existence by pointing out that the character appears in several countries' folklore.

That's very true. He was typically Darwinian in his presentation of "data," in an enthusiastic rush of unscientific annecdotal accounts.

OK, here's another one:

J. Laurence Kulp, Science magazine Volume 133, 14 April 1961. "The Geological Time Scale."

When I was a graduate student this article was presented as one of the first ones to attempt to apply radioisotopic dating data to the geological time scale.

To set the scene a little, the geological time scale is the sequence of geolocical ages, like Silurean, Devonian, Carboniferous etc. that was established based on the fossil record. This system of dating is RELATIVE. There are no actual dates at all, it is based on the preconceived notion that we evolved from primordial ooze. The fossils are "dated," only by their state of relative biological complexity, and this is used as a guide to estimate the "age," of the parent rock in which they were found.

When radioisotope dating techniques were developed it was seen as an opportunity to get actual, ABSOLUTE, ages for the fossils. IF evolution is true, and IF the relativistic scheme of the geological time scale reflect the reality, then it SHOULD be possible to get radioisotope dates from the fossils that corroborate the fossil record - right?

The problem I have with this paper, is the method of selecting the data that was included in generating the result. More than half of the samples taken were excluded. The only data that was allowed to be considered in the final analysis, was the data that fit the scientists preconceived idea about what the result should be. It was rigged. If all radioisotope data was included the result would be no result, because you have samples that are dated Devonian in the relative geological time scale coming out with dates in the Quaternary period.

This type of work, which is generated by people who have there own convictions that they are attempting to prove, is labeled as scientific, glossed over in the media as being fact, and consumed en-mass as proof that the earth is billions of years old.

Anyone who CHOOSES to accept the scientific theory of evolution is making a leap of faith. The problem is, they don't see it that way.

Geck-o-Lizard
21-09-07, 15:21
Not by themsleves it is selfish it ius by group-importance.

It's a "my God is real, your god is fake" issue. A capital letter is a mark of respect. A lack of capitalisation is a mark of disrespect.

Mona Sax
21-09-07, 15:45
@ Zac: I partly agree, so far there are no absolutely exact methods, and looking at the various fossils is like looking at a series of snapshots, not a movie. However, the differences in time between the 'photographs' (differences between fossils of the same or similar species, rock layers, atomic decay etc.) can be estimated, and the number of steps is known. We also know that natural mutations are a fact. As for what happened between the snapshots, there are several possibilities. Personally I think a constant progress is more likely than the alternative - a god basically creating countless sketches and immediately throwing them away to create new ones. It also doesn't match the usual claim that man has been around since day 7 - unless you believe that evolution is a reality that was only started by god (which, I might add, doesn't contradict the bible at all - as far as I can remember, it never states that everything still looks and works exactly the same as the day it was created).

Still, even if you consider those possibilities to integrate the bible's version into modern science, the differences between the timelines is way too big. It's very well possible that Earth isn't 4.5 billion years old, that's just an educated guess. However, if it actually were 6,000 years old, so many experts would be so far off that I think a mistake on that scale would be very, very improbable. If my calculations are correct, the current scientific estimate would be 99.9998667% off.

Zac Medley
21-09-07, 15:52
@Mona: I wish that you and I could have a cup of coffee together and watch the world go by while we have this conversation.

I have to go now, though (grocery shopping).

Peace, sister :)

Mona Sax
21-09-07, 15:53
That is God..not god..there are gods and there is a God..

There is only one God. but there are many gods..God is the most powerful and all knowing..the other gods..well people think they are channels to God..but i dont think gods are of importance..
Until somebody - anybody - convinces me that their god (and only theirs!) is real, I'll keep referring to 'god/gods'. I don't see any reason to differentiate between the various religions.

@ Zac: Yeah, anytime. Might be a problem as long as you're stuck in that 'Louvre Gallery air conditioning duct', though. :p

gotha-666
21-09-07, 16:58
Why these questions are always singular? If there's one god, why couldn't there be more than one?

and just imagine this, when we came 2 earth, it was like completely done, who made it?? GOD !!, who created us !? GOD !! who will let us die in any second?? GOD !! who would judge u and let u go 2 hell or heaven?? GOD !! so thats the whole thing.

myrmaad
21-09-07, 17:11
Until somebody - anybody - convinces me that their god (and only theirs!) is real, I'll keep referring to 'god/gods'. I don't see any reason to differentiate between the various religions.


Regardless of popular opinion, the major world religions all pray to the same God, as they all believe in the same God who Abraham prayed to, and made covenant with, and all four religions have direct descent from Abraham.

A reference to this can be read here (http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i7816.html); but it is not the only reference available, it's just a decent-enough explanation that is easy to understand for those not familiar with the accuracy and fact of what I'm telling you.


I really think this is an important point to make, and those who do not acknowledge the accuracy of this point are not worth arguing with because it is simply a historical fact.

Do not make the mistake that I'm saying that the God of Abraham is the one true creator, or that the God of Abraham is the only God or anything else. My faith is my own business, and I'll stay out of yours.

I'm simply concerned with the facts of the origin of the competing religions, in this post. I believe it is an important distinction to make regarding the warring factions.

Elysia
21-09-07, 17:26
*Chips is very quickly* All I can say is that as someone who has a degree in Palaeobiology and Evolution, near enough all science is observational and there is A LOT more evidence regarding evolution that just Darwinism (most of it doesn't make the 'popular' science media since it is very tedious, much like most science in all honesty) and what many people chose to cite when arguing against it (outdated ideas that most Geologists and Palaeontologists have now disproven / don't believe anymore), but it did convince me that there is a hell of a lot more evidence out there for a scientific basis for the origin of life etc than some old dude sitting on a cloud creating everything out of clay (which, when is all is said and done, is just a sedimentary rock made from the fine particles of other rocks eroded that have eroded over time and been redeposited in a calm water environment).

If anyone here has ever been in a quarry in the pouring rain and split open a rock that contains a fossil that no human has ever seen (as are all fossils; each one is unique) of an animal that died over 450 million years ago (perfectly preserved Ordovician Trilobite larger than my hand, if anyone is curious), or been let loose upon a (welsh, in our case) mountainside to look for orgainic remains in a previously believed-to-be-fossil-free (no one had the time to really search until we, the first ever completely dedicated to Palaeo degree course came along - in the past, Palaeos tended to study Biology and Geology exclusively and then specialse later) Cambrian outcrop and actually find things , you will know the thrill of discovery like no other and ultimately respect nature for the massive force that it is - for me, the argument is solved. God is in our heads; created out of a need to exaplain, govern and have mastery over something even larger, more awesome and more mysterious than anything we could ever imagine m- nature itself.

myrmaad
21-09-07, 17:30
*Chips is very quickly* All I can say is that as someone who has a degree in Palaeobiology and Evolution, near enough all science is observational and there is A LOT more evidence regarding evolution that just Darwinism (most of it doesn't make the 'popular' science media since it is very tedious, much like most science in all honesty) and what many people chose to cite when arguing against it (outdated ideas that most Geologists and Palaeontologists have now disproven / don't believe anymore), but it did convince me that there is a hell of a lot more evidence out there for a scientific basis for the origin of life etc than some old dude sitting on a cloud creating everything out of clay (which, when is all is said and done, is just a sedimentary rock made from the fine particles of other rocks eroded that have eroded over time and been redeposited in a calm water environment).

If anyone here has ever been in a quarry in the pouring rain and split open a rock that contains a fossil that no human has ever seen (as are all fossils; each one is unique) of an animal that died over 450 million years ago (perfectly preserved Ordovician Trilobite larger than my hand, if anyone is curious), or been let loose upon a (welsh, in our case) mountainside to look for orgainic remains in a previously believed-to-be-fossil-free (no one had the time to really search until we, the first ever completely dedicated to Palaeo degree course came along - in the past, Palaeos tended to study Biology and Geology exclusively and then specialse later) Cambrian outcrop and actually find things , you will know the thrill of discovery like no other and ultimately respect nature for the massive force that it is - for me, the argument is solved. God is in our heads; created out of a need to exaplain, govern and have mastery over something even larger, more awesome and more mysterious than anything we could ever imagine m- nature itself.

Some of us might have a real problem that the "Divine Creator" is an old man in a cloud.

I might better characterize God as a "Divine Creative Force" - the origin of the big bang, and the dark matter that is the connective tissue of the universe.

But that's just the ramblings of an obsessive mind.

Elysia
21-09-07, 17:45
Some of us might have a real problem that the "Divine Creator" is an old man in a cloud.

I might better characterize God as a "Divine Creative Force" - the origin of the big bang, and the dark matter that is the connective tissue of the universe.

But that's just the ramblings of an obsessive mind.
Actually, and rather ironically, I don't have much of a problem with that - except I call the 'Divine Creative Force' by a much simpler name - Nature.

What I have a problem with is being told I am a bad person because I don't believe in paying lip service to what is essentially someone's Imaginary Friend, and that so many evil things that go on in the world are simply because people can't agree who has the best Imaginary Friend. If there is a Divine Creator of all things out there that follows what most people believe in (all that 'God is Love' stuff), then I think that His / Her / It is going to be a mite ****ed off that His / Her / Its creations have been torturing, raping and murdering each other in their millions simply because they can't agree on their own perspective of what His / Her / It is. So, why hasn't it stopped? Either His / Her / It doesn't care - and if that is the case, then why is His / Her / It worthy of our adoration? - or (and I suspect this is possibly the truth), it's all something made up by imaginative humans as a way of coping with what is a complex and sometimes baffling world. It's much easier to say 'This force that we can't see did it' than 'I don't know'. Which then makes me wonder if the concept of God was actually forged by the conceit and pride of man than anything else.

myrmaad
21-09-07, 17:59
If there is a Divine Creator of all things out there that follows what most people believe in (all that 'God is Love' stuff), then I think that His / Her / It is going to be a mite ****ed off that His / Her / Its creations have been torturing, raping and murdering each other in their millions simply because they can't agree on their own perspective of what His / Her / It is. So, why hasn't it stopped?

You enjoy science, might I suggest you might enjoy some of the following books:
-Elegant Universe - Brian Greene
-The Fabric of The Universe - Brian Greene
-The Secret Life of Plants - Byrd & White

I will answer your question from my perspective. Your mileage may vary.

A hard look at hard science is revealing what mystics have always known: we are all connected.

Although I don't take revelatory writings as literal, I will note the important passage that states that man is created in God's image.

God is foremost a creator in the most literal sense of the meaning, and if we are made in that image, we can understand why we have free will -- TO CREATE OUR OWN DESTINIES.

So, no, no one is going to save us from ourselves.

The power (scientifically being observed in certain medical studies) of prayer, is that we are connecting in with the divine network. (As Namaste means "the god in me greets the god in you") Cliche as it sounds, like it or not, astronomers are figuring out that we are all literally connected by dark matter.


Pretty tough for us to understand while we trapped in these crappy physical bodies.

Those who believe you die and that's it. Think about this scientific fact: energy can not be created nor destroyed, it can only be transformed.

Geck-o-Lizard
21-09-07, 18:02
when we came 2 earth, it was like completely done

"Done"? In what way is the Earth "done"?

who created us !?

Why must there be a "who"?

who will let us die in any second??

We're not in constant danger of spontaneously dropping dead at any moment.

who would judge u and let u go 2 hell or heaven??

And if we don't believe there is anything after death?

Elysia
21-09-07, 18:17
You enjoy science, might I suggest you might enjoy some of the following books:
-Elegant Universe - Brian Greene
-The Fabric of The Universe - Brian Greene
-The Secret Life of Plants - Byrd & White

I will answer your question from my perspective. Your mileage may vary.

A hard look at hard science is revealing what mystics have always known: we are all connected.

Although I don't take revelatory writings as literal, I will note the important passage that states that man is created in God's image.

God is foremost a creator in the most literal sense of the meaning, and if we are made in that image, we can understand why we have free will -- TO CREATE OUR OWN DESTINIES.

So, no, no one is going to save us from ourselves.

The power (scientifically being observed in certain medical studies) of prayer, is that we are connecting in with the divine network. (As Namaste means "the god in me greets the god in you") Cliche as it sounds, like it or not, astronomers are figuring out that we are all literally connected by dark matter.


Pretty tough for us to understand while we trapped in these crappy physical bodies.
Thanks for the recommendations ;).

I am actually interested in theology and the like - it interests me with regards to how it impacts human behaviour. It really is simply a case of what you believe - one man's miracle is another's coincidence, just as the power of prayer is able to heal to some via divine energies to somem where to others is is (the no less wondrous) ability for the mind to triumph over the physical ('mind over matter').

Saying that, this whole 'made in God's image'... sorry, that I can't square with. I studied palaeoanthropology (although I claim to be no expert!) as part of my degree, and can see exactly how we are primates, not some magical, favoured son (or daughter) of a Divine Creator. One of the first things I was taught is that the whole thing about the missing link is that there actually isn't one - the fossil record from early primates (Australopithecus afarensis ('Lucy') and the like) to Homo sapiens is actually quite clear - tangled (there were a lot of evolutionary dead ends), but clear. The evolution of the upright walking position, the moving of the spinal column from the back of the skull to underneath and the subsequent larger cranial capacity and larger brain accounts for our differences with other members of the Animal Kingdom. Our intelligence (or ruthlessness... it has been theorised that the Neanderthal were wiped out because H sapien was simply more aggressive. N. actually had a larger brain capacity than we do (although, granted, that is no indication of a higher state of intelligence, but at the same time, it isn't a huge leap of reason to argue that they weren't stupid by any stretch...) is the key to our survival - and our intelligence is also the key to our arrogance, creating a scenario in which we are not the same as the other animals - indeed, there are some people who still get offended if you say that the human race was descended form a common ancestor as other apes (note I did not say 'monkeys'. We did not descend from monkeys - just as the crocodiles and dinosaurs have a common archosaur ancestor, we have a common primate ancestor), but I actually think it's grossly arrogant to assume otherwise. I personally am honoured to be part of such a grand scheme, to be honest! :) I have a huge respect for Nature.

deepbluesea
21-09-07, 18:28
I don't beleive in god but I do believe in nature and the spirit of life (who I like to think of as female) (mother figure) But I won't go too much into it as its personal and I'd like to keep it that way

myrmaad
21-09-07, 18:31
I think I did a poor job of demonstrating what I believe.

The studies on prayer were on "group prayer" and changing odds of a third party outcome.

I have studied Linguistics which overlaps quite a bit with your paleoanthropology, in fact I have been encouraged to study anthro in my master's since it's one of my main loves, but I'm trying for a Juris Doctor instead.

Anyway, I have no argument with your description of the process, but I only get stuck on the area of whether the rotation of the head over the shoulders and the small mouth/teeth/and flexible tongue was an accident of evolution or some sort of fate.

I admit I do not know the answer. On the other hand, the ecstacy of prayer is quite fulfilling, comforting, and strength-giving for me no matter what the reason.

Minty Mouth
21-09-07, 18:43
I dont know if this has been posted yet, but I dont have time to search through every page inn the thread. I just thought I should share it:

J6b_vVNP4nM

Reggie
21-09-07, 18:44
Just thought I'd pop in and say that as someone who likes to ponder stuff like this with an open mind; I'm enjoying reading the posts so far. Especially Elysia's and Myrmaad's posts.

The only thing I actually worship, if you will is the wonder of nature - the incomprehensible forces that somehow keep it all going and hold it together and of course, the wonder of life itself...

Such a vast subject I don't think we will ever completely understand.

deepbluesea
21-09-07, 18:52
Since the purpose of life is to reproduce and bring up the young, and teach them to carry on for suvival of the species (any of them) I say bring on the love.

Elysia
21-09-07, 18:53
I think I did a poor job of demonstrating what I believe.

The studies on prayer were on "group prayer" and changing odds of a third party outcome.

I have studied Linguistics which overlaps quite a bit with your paleoanthropology, in fact I have been encouraged to study anthro in my master's since it's one of my main loves, but I'm trying for a Juris Doctor instead.

Anyway, I have no argument with your description of the process, but I only get stuck on the area of whether the rotation of the head over the shoulders and the small mouth/teeth/and flexible tongue was an accident of evolution or some sort of fate.

I admit I do not know the answer. On the other hand, the ecstacy of prayer is quite fulfilling, comforting, and strength-giving for me no matter what the reason.
:) Ahhh - yes, I see what you mean. I am quite a keen Fortean, and so read quite a lot on such phenomenon, and it is truly fascinating. There are a lot of things we don't yet understand about ourselves, and whether what 'faith' (for the lack of a better word) is capable of and whether is is an internal or external force is still a matter of some debate. Chaos Magic is something I am hugely interested in - that there are spheres of existence beyond our own that impact upon ours in ways we do not yet understand - and is why I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist. In some matters, I think that the concept of God is outmoded and anachronistic (the 'Father Figure who will come down and give you a good hiding if you do something wrong' theory of God), but there is much that happens that we simply cannot explain away readily - now, whether this is evidence of God, magic, alternative universes or powers human's have that we don't know how to harness yet, I do not know, but I do not refute that they are there! There is more to life than just the visible and observable, that much I personally think is true.

Not to get bogged down in semantics, but evolution is a fluid process - many people view it as being like stop - motion claymation, but it is much more seemless. Nine times out of ten, things evolve for another reason and then are further adapted for another use (which turns out to be the primary use). Our greater intelligence explains a lot about our physiology; we had the means to use tools, and therefore our need for innate tools (teeth and claws) was diminished; our stereoscopic vision has been further enhanced by our colour perception (our eyesight is often believed to be poor, but it is actually good; it's our other senses that are poor! Humans can see better than a lot of other animals), but because we have sacrificed speed to our larger brains, we need a way to survey for danger, explaining head rotation.

Prayer / meditation is hugely fulfilling. I don't pray as such, but I do meditate, and that gives me a sense of spiritual peace. The biggest mistake a lot of 'religious' people make is that those of us who do not believe in 'God' have no spiritual side, but a lot of us do - we just access it differently, through a different medium (which then lends the question 'why?'. Is it simply a human need? Or is it something external that does impact upon us? Is that what 'God' is? I have no idea, but that makes more sense to me than a formed conciousness 'making' us from nothing).

Greenkey2
21-09-07, 18:54
Since the purpose of life is to reproduce and bring up the young, and teach them to carry on for suvival of the species (any of them) I say bring on the love.


:tmb: I used to know a suitably hippy smilie that would be perfect to use here, but i seem to have lost it :(

deepbluesea
21-09-07, 18:55
:tmb: I used to know a suitably hippy smilie that would be perfect to use here, but i seem to have lost it :(

free love dude. But seriously, I'm happy in this knowledge

Thorir
21-09-07, 18:55
**** no! :D

If there is a God, I shall do everything to defy him! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/evilgrin/evilgrin0007.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)

Elysia
21-09-07, 18:57
Just thought I'd pop in and say that as someone who likes to ponder stuff like this with an open mind; I'm enjoying reading the posts so far. Especially Elysia's and Myrmaad's posts.

The only thing I actually worship, if you will is the wonder of nature - the incomprehensible forces that somehow keep it all going and hold it together and of course, the wonder of life itself...

Such a vast subject I don't think we will ever completely understand.
:tmb: Agreed. I personally think that God is just another label for nature - we personify it to better identify with it, but it is still nature. :)

deepbluesea
21-09-07, 18:59
:tmb: Agreed. I personally think that God is just another label for nature - we personify it to better identify with it, but it is still nature. :)

Agreed 100%. Nature is well nature we find we need a father figure to look up to and forgive us for the things we feel we have done wrong. Guilt is easier if you believe you will be forgiven, Although I believe there is nothing that needs forgiving if you forgive yourself. And life is easier to deal with if theres something better after

Reggie
21-09-07, 19:00
:tmb: Agreed. I personally think that God is just another label for nature - we personify it to better identify with it, but it is still nature. :)

I really identify with you Elysia! Its comforting to know I'm not the only one who thinks in this way about "God" as an agnostic.
I also want to point out your idea of different spheres of existance beyond our own. I believe that to be true but not in the sense of heaven and hell. Its quite hard for me to actually describe how I feel on the subject, but you've done a good job of doing that for me which, like I said before, is a relief.

myrmaad
21-09-07, 19:07
Thanks for the recommendations ;).

I am actually interested in theology and the like - it interests me with regards to how it impacts human behaviour. It really is simply a case of what you believe - one man's miracle is another's coincidence, just as the power of prayer is able to heal to some via divine energies to somem where to others is is (the no less wondrous) ability for the mind to triumph over the physical ('mind over matter').

Saying that, this whole 'made in God's image'... sorry, that I can't square with. I studied palaeoanthropology (although I claim to be no expert!) as part of my degree, and can see exactly how we are primates, not some magical, favoured son (or daughter) of a Divine Creator. One of the first things I was taught is that the whole thing about the missing link is that there actually isn't one - the fossil record from early primates (Australopithecus afarensis ('Lucy') and the like) to Homo sapiens is actually quite clear - tangled (there were a lot of evolutionary dead ends), but clear. The evolution of the upright walking position, the moving of the spinal column from the back of the skull to underneath and the subsequent larger cranial capacity and larger brain accounts for our differences with other members of the Animal Kingdom. Our intelligence (or ruthlessness... it has been theorised that the Neanderthal were wiped out because H sapien was simply more aggressive. N. actually had a larger brain capacity than we do (although, granted, that is no indication of a higher state of intelligence, but at the same time, it isn't a huge leap of reason to argue that they weren't stupid by any stretch...) is the key to our survival - and our intelligence is also the key to our arrogance, creating a scenario in which we are not the same as the other animals - indeed, there are some people who still get offended if you say that the human race was descended form a common ancestor as other apes (note I did not say 'monkeys'. We did not descend from monkeys - just as the crocodiles and dinosaurs have a common archosaur ancestor, we have a common primate ancestor), but I actually think it's grossly arrogant to assume otherwise. I personally am honoured to be part of such a grand scheme, to be honest! :) I have a huge respect for Nature.

Just wanted to clarify something on re-reading your post, if you'll pardon me.

The important lynchpin of my own thought process is that the divine creative force is not some old man or woman on high somewhere, handing down pronouncements.

I think that an understanding of anthropology is helpful with this part of my thought process (see Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches (the Riddles of Culture)- by Marvin Harris). Man uses symbology to explain, to communicate, to teach, to survive. The letters and words you are reading are a symbology called the alphabet that symbolizes another symbology, the "english language".

When I say "God" I refer not to some old man handing out fates, but the symbology of creation in which I assume an intelligent design.

So the idea that we are "chosen" over each other or creatures is an alien concept in my own version of transcendent divinity. More probably our physical bodies are an accident. Our life force/spiritual nature is another matter, in my view.

myrmaad
21-09-07, 19:15
:) Ahhh - yes, I see what you mean. I am quite a keen Fortean, and so read quite a lot on such phenomenon, and it is truly fascinating. There are a lot of things we don't yet understand about ourselves, and whether what 'faith' (for the lack of a better word) is capable of and whether is is an internal or external force is still a matter of some debate. Chaos Magic is something I am hugely interested in - that there are spheres of existence beyond our own that impact upon ours in ways we do not yet understand - and is why I am an Agnostic, not an Atheist. In some matters, I think that the concept of God is outmoded and anachronistic (the 'Father Figure who will come down and give you a good hiding if you do something wrong' theory of God), but there is much that happens that we simply cannot explain away readily - now, whether this is evidence of God, magic, alternative universes or powers human's have that we don't know how to harness yet, I do not know, but I do not refute that they are there! There is more to life than just the visible and observable, that much I personally think is true.

Not to get bogged down in semantics, but evolution is a fluid process - many people view it as being like stop - motion claymation, but it is much more seemless. Nine times out of ten, things evolve for another reason and then are further adapted for another use (which turns out to be the primary use). Our greater intelligence explains a lot about our physiology; we had the means to use tools, and therefore our need for innate tools (teeth and claws) was diminished; our stereoscopic vision has been further enhanced by our colour perception (our eyesight is often believed to be poor, but it is actually good; it's our other senses that are poor! Humans can see better than a lot of other animals), but because we have sacrificed speed to our larger brains, we need a way to survey for danger, explaining head rotation.

Prayer / meditation is hugely fulfilling. I don't pray as such, but I do meditate, and that gives me a sense of spiritual peace. The biggest mistake a lot of 'religious' people make is that those of us who do not believe in 'God' have no spiritual side, but a lot of us do - we just access it differently, through a different medium (which then lends the question 'why?'. Is it simply a human need? Or is it something external that does impact upon us? Is that what 'God' is? I have no idea, but that makes more sense to me than a formed conciousness 'making' us from nothing).

I wrote my previous post before I saw this one.

In some ways you've described well things I tried to explain in that post.

Whacko that I am, I actually believe it is arrogant to think we are the only accidental life in the universe.

I have had a certain spiritual experience that made me aware that life on the physical plane is quite "artificial" for lack of a better term.

And make no mistake many people in my own family think I'm the devil, because although I've read the bible many times I do not take it as the literal word of God, and even converted to Judaism in protest. That's why I really do hesitate to share of any of this, and by the way, I can not seem to find a meaningful difference between meditation and prayer, personally.

Sorry for the double post but I felt sure that someone else would have replied in the time it took me to respond to the latter post.

Elysia
21-09-07, 19:23
Just wanted to clarify something on re-reading your post, if you'll pardon me.

The important lynchpin of my own thought process is that the divine creative force is not some old man or woman on high somewhere, handing down pronouncements.

I think that an understanding of anthropology is helpful with this part of my thought process (see Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches (the Riddles of Culture)- by Marvin Harris). Man uses symbology to explain, to communicate, to teach, to survive. The letters and words you are reading are a symbology called the alphabet that symbolizes another symbology, the "english language".

When I say "God" I refer not to some old man handing out fates, but the symbology of creation in which I assume an intelligent design.

So the idea that we are "chosen" over each other or creatures is an alien concept in my own version of transcendent divinity. More probably our physical bodies are an accident. Our life force/spiritual nature is another matter, in my view.
Interesting views - although I have to admit that I do see humans is essentially animals; intellgent animals, yes, but still animals. Our primary driving forces are still the same as everything else on this planet - to reproduce and survive. Most of our behaviours can be traced back to a primitive need to propogate and survive - we still have our 'fight or flight' instincts, we still allow our sexual urges to largely control our lives, we still have an overwhelming instinct to protect our genetic lines (our 'loved ones') and a huge pack / herding instinct as well - we are, when all is said and done (and as I have said before), animals. Saying that, however, to put it crudely 'weird **** does happen' - how that all fits in, I don't know (if I did, I wouldn't be here, I'd be sitting on a mountain with lots of adoring acolytes! :D) - but there is some argument as to whether that is from an external or internal source, and this is where the line blurs a bit...

When you say 'Intelligent Design', are you referring to the theory or your actual personal belief? Because I have to admit, I've read some ID stuff (mainly articles rather than books) that I found highly contentious and that a lot of the 'evidence' was manipulated to fit the theory (which, in it's defense, makes it similar to most scientific theory... :p), and that is is really just belief wrapped up in scientific words.

myrmaad
21-09-07, 19:31
When you say 'Intelligent Design', are you referring to the theory or your actual personal belief? Because I have to admit, I've read some ID stuff (mainly articles rather than books) that I found highly contentious and that a lot of the 'evidence' was manipulated to fit the theory (which, in it's defense, makes it similar to most scientific theory... :p), and that is is really just belief wrapped up in scientific words.

I find that the current "theory" has very little to do with the original concept of Intelligent Design, so no I do not mean the version that has been manipulated by xtians trying to get a foothold into school system in order to nullify the separation of church and state.

Elysia
21-09-07, 19:33
I wrote my previous post before I saw this one.

In some ways you've described well things I tried to explain in that post.

Whacko that I am, I actually believe it is arrogant to think we are the only accidental life in the universe.

I have had a certain spiritual experience that made me aware that life on the physical plane is quite "artificial" for lack of a better term.

And make no mistake many people in my own family think I'm the devil, because although I've read the bible many times I do not take it as the literal word of God, and even converted to Judaism in protest. That's why I really do hesitate to share of any of this, and by the way, I can not seem to find a meaningful difference between meditation and prayer, personally.

Sorry for the double post but I felt sure that someone else would have replied in the time it took me to respond to the latter post.
I totally believe that there is intelligent life out there. I cannot believe that we are the only ones in this vast universe, and one of the things that drove my interest in palaeontology and evolution was a) mysterious stuff RULES and b) by understanding how it happened on our planet, maybe we can begin to understand how it might happen elsewhere. It's almost a comfort.

:) Thanks for sharing! :hug: I tend to get jumped on by the 'You don't blindly follow the word of God! Blasphemer!' crowd and get pigeonholed as an atheist a lot, when I am far from that. I use what I learned (quite a few years ago now, I have to admit...:o) to help me give an informed opinion of some of life's greater mysteries, and it's truth to say that I have more of a problem with organised religion and being told I'm a bad person for having a differing opinion than 'God' Him / Her / Itself. To kind of contradict myself (:o) - yes, I believe we are all animals, but at the same time, where does our drive to create art and beauty come from? That isn't for survival... some might argue that it could be a form of sexual display, but drawing really satisfies something deep within me that I can't truly explain. And, well, I don't think I want to explain it, either... if we knew all the answers, life would be very boring (and probably meaningless). :)

Elysia
21-09-07, 19:38
I find that the current "theory" has very little to do with the original concept of Intelligent Design, so no I do not mean the version that has been manipulated by xtians trying to get a foothold into school system in order to nullify the separation of church and state.
*Phew*! Got to say - I am relieved at that. The ID theory that they have tried to shoehorn into American schools is rather worrying (and riddled with inconsistencies, conjecture and sometimes, actual fabrication) - whether you believe or not, to completely forbid the teaching of something (as they forbid evolution) and present another theory as 'fact' so that people cannot make their own, informed choices is, as far as I see it, unforgivable.

You know - this is what I love. We came from different angles, but essentially meet in the middle when it comes to ideals. If only we could all leave the emotional name calling out of it, I think the vast majority of people would discover that actually, even though we express it in different ways and give it different labels, we all want the same thing - comfort that there is more to our lives than simply living and dying.

(sorry about double post too! :o)

myrmaad
21-09-07, 19:39
:hug: I quite agree! Darn, it really felt good to get all this off my chest for once!

Elysia
21-09-07, 19:56
:hug: I quite agree! Darn, it really felt good to get all this off my chest for once!
:hug: It also feels very good to be able to discuss things like this in a rational manner, where even if both parties don't agree completely 100%, still respect the other's views and are willing to see both sides! Thank you!

myrmaad and Elysia: solving theological problems since 2007.... :D

myrmaad
21-09-07, 20:14
:vlol:

Now that's settled can't we all just get along?

PARANOIA
21-09-07, 21:55
I'm really getting sick of God. I wish He would just go away, He's really not that great.

Deepthought
21-09-07, 22:04
I don't believe in god, but unlike a lot of people, I don't force my ethics upon others.

raiderfun
21-09-07, 22:07
Yes , of course I do , there is only one God : ALLAH . :)

myrmaad
21-09-07, 22:17
I'm really getting sick of God. I wish He would just go away, He's really not that great.


I'm sure it's mutual.

Mona Sax
22-09-07, 09:15
To kind of contradict myself (:o) - yes, I believe we are all animals, but at the same time, where does our drive to create art and beauty come from? That isn't for survival... some might argue that it could be a form of sexual display, but drawing really satisfies something deep within me that I can't truly explain.
I think there are various aspects of art, which are connected - creation, expression and self-fulfillment. Creation can be seen as a form of reproduction. Like actual procreation, it's a bit like leaving a footprint behind, like giving a part of yourself. I see the other two are more like a form of communication, with others as well as yourself, about who you are and how you see the world. Maybe it's indirectly connected to survival (expression as a social function), maybe it's something entirely different.

kill bill
22-09-07, 09:16
No, I do not believe in God, I never will believe in God, and I will not subscribe to "faith," because faith is blind.

I don't think you will see heven after putting ones life in a microwave:whi::rolleyes:

kooky
22-09-07, 14:36
I'm really getting sick of God. I wish He would just go away, He's really not that great.

OK, so you are saying that you want everyone in the world to be Atheist? It is not going to happen, God Cares for his people, he is a loving God, not a hating God. Of Course God is great. in TR: Legend, Lara Said "There is a God.". :)

PARANOIA
22-09-07, 14:41
I don't think you will see heven after putting ones life in a microwave:whi::rolleyes:

No, I don't suppose so, but that's life. If I go to Hell I'll be sure to bring a shotgun.

I'm sure it's mutual.

Well, not everybody needs God. I hope He doesn't take it personally.

OK, so you are saying that you want everyone in the world to be Atheist?

No, quite the opposite. I'm just making it quite clear that I don't need His advice or guidance.

Admles
23-09-07, 08:21
Also, in addition to not believing in any form of god / higher power, I'll be raising any children I have to not believe either.

Laurencarter
23-09-07, 10:28
Everyone around me is telling me that there is a God but I'm in the process of making my mind up about if I believe or not

gotha-666
23-09-07, 11:49
Yes , of course I do , there is only one God : ALLAH . :)

thats right ;) ALLAH is the only god :D im muslim too :p

xcrushterx
23-09-07, 11:52
One thing that has always nit-picked me for ages is this:

If god is so all-powerful, why does he need or want us to worship him so much? How big headed is that?

Cochrane
23-09-07, 13:02
One thing that has always nit-picked me for ages is this:

If god is so all-powerful, why does he need or want us to worship him so much? How big headed is that?

As far as I know, this question is blasphemous, since God is so more powerful and important than we are, that we cannot measure His will using our experiences and moral values. So if He tells us to worship Him, it's not bigheaded, it's something He just does and we better comply. Or something like that.

The other explanation is that in the past, deities were worshipped because you hope for their help, i.e. you tried to barter with them by giving them attention and sacrifices in return for potential services (like stop the rain or bring more rain or cure a disease, anything). This practice was continued and promoted when religion became institutionalized, partly because that was the job of such institutionalized religion, partly because the ones who claimed they knew what the gods wanted used the worship as their form of influence, and, through sacrifices and donations, as income. But that answer is obviously wrong, as it doesn't mention how great God is.

Nannonxyay
23-09-07, 13:02
Nope. :wve:

vespertea
23-09-07, 14:59
Also, in addition to not believing in any form of god / higher power, I'll be raising any children I have to not believe either.

Or you could, you know, let them decide what they want to believe on their own. Otherwise you're no better than the strong active Christian family who teach their kids there's a God right off the bat.

As far as I know, this question is blasphemous, since God is so more powerful and important than we are, that we cannot measure His will using our experiences and moral values. So if He tells us to worship Him, it's not bigheaded, it's something He just does and we better comply. Or something like that.

I don't think it's blasphemous to ask that question; it's honest and valid. But something tells me that's not the right answer. Let me rephrase it: He doesn't need humans to worship him. He doesn't need us at all. He just wants to have a relationship with us, and I guess praise and worship is one way to keep that relationship in line.

ivannnnn
24-09-07, 05:48
I do 100%. Debating about it would never finish but God reveal himself at you. Seeing is believing

The Great Chi
25-09-07, 15:26
Lets turn this question the other way first...
Do you believe that there is a Devil, or evil in this world ?

The answer to evil is yes.. just look at wars, famine, plagues, down through the ages.

There is always some person / tribe / empire / country, that wants what another has, its the really bad side of human nature :mad:

So with evil is there a counterbalence of good, well if there was not, then this world would by now be one giant hell everywhere.

Having been on earth long enough to see a lot of good in people as well as bad or downright evil, I believe there is a strength required to be good, and people have to be taught to be good from being young, so thats where man made religions come in, to teach goodness.

There is also the bad side of religion, like the cause of wars, but we will not dwell on that here.

I honestly believe there is life after death, but as for there being a specific god(s) according to religious beliefs, I could not answer that. I just think its not as simple as that.

We will find out eventually, even if it takes to beyond our last breath :D

Admles
25-09-07, 18:22
I don't believe in the Devil / Satan / Lucifer.

There's enough bad people in the world as it is, bad people of ALL races / cultures / faiths.

They do their share well enough without there being a source of all evil.

shades
08-10-07, 14:49
Reminds me of Cthulu. :vlol:




I disagree with these points. In the past 30 years, science has made remarkable discoveries that would seem to debunk the existence of a "god" of any kind, regarding Earth as nothing more than a "pale blue dot" (a reference to the wonderful Sagan). But in more recent years, these scientific explorations are starting to come to a halt on the basis of debunking the existence of a supreme being. Take complexity, for example. The complexity of the universe--from planetary alignment, to the moon, to the Earth, to human and animal anatomy, to atomic composition--all of it is immensely and unimaginably complex. The more we dig, the more we find. For me personally, this complexity points to the possibility of an intelligent designer instead of the result of sheer happenstance (and that's only one of several reasons why I believe there's a supreme being of some sort). So, on the contrary, the explorations of science, for me, point to God instead of the lack thereof -- at least to a degree. When science fails to fulfill philosophical "gray areas," like the origin of the universe, it illuminates the significance of these unanswerable questions. When science struggles to answer these gray areas on a natural basis, that leads to me believe that they can be answered on a supernatural basis. That's my standing.

And as for God belittling beauty, I'm in complete contrast. I had never experienced the aesthetic beauty of the world in which we live until I studied the complexities of nature and the universe. It led me to believe that these complexities are a product of design, not chance, and once I reached this point, the content of the world--all things--ignited with beauty.



I actually really like that. You're right -- God exists or he doesn't. One of the few things we can prove is simply our own consciousness. This heavily reminds me of existentialism.



Yes. The world is amazingly complex. But to assign something of a complex nature under the creation of something infinitely more complex. that just raises the improbability factor through the roof. It doesn't answer the question. It only raises many, many more.

Life = biology = evolution = us

I feel the same way about the religious debates. It just boggles my mind that folks argue over something that they will never convince the other side of, whether it's because there is no solid proof one way or the other, or because people are going to believe what they're going to believe. It'd be so cool if people could just be satisfied with their religious convictions without bashing others. Not that it will ever happen, but it would be pretty rad.

I was brought up catholic. And i was religious. Thankfuly i read the book" The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It cleared my head. I suggest everyone (esspecially religious people) do the same.

I imagine some people won't. They will be far to brainwashed and won't even listen to an argument which might possibly debunk their bilief. If you a secure about what you bilieve, reading the book will perhaps strengthen your faith.

I challenge any religiously inclined person to buy "The God Delusion" and read it with an open mind.

thats right ;) ALLAH is the only god :D im muslim too :p

well thank goodness I live in a relatively small house.

Does it not disturb you that people of your faith kill for what they bilieve in. They kill in the name of your faith. That would send shivers down my spine.

peffect
08-10-07, 15:04
I was brought up catholic. And i was religious. Thankfuly i read the book" The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It cleared my head. I suggest everyone (esspecially religious people) do the same.

I imagine some people won't. They will be far to brainwashed and won't even listen to an argument which might possibly debunk their bilief. If you a secure about what you bilieve, reading the book will perhaps strengthen your faith.

I challenge any religiously inclined person to buy "The God Delusion" and read it with an open mind.

Take a look at Bible, Qur'an and Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. ;)

shades
08-10-07, 15:07
Take a look at Bible, Qur'an and Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. ;)

i know about it. what a load of metabollocks haha

nothing in the bible, Qur'an or ANY other old historic text of some kind can explain anything about human life on a biological scale. The people of that time had NO idea how old the earth was. detecting Radioactive decay was not a known method back then to work out how old the earth was (among other methods).

To claim the earth is 4 thousand years old purely on the basis that YOU BILIEVE IT. Is mind boggling. thats not even half a blink when it comes to the age of our planet.

peffect
08-10-07, 15:11
i know about it. what a load of metabollocks haha

Did you read it?

Benguitar
08-10-07, 15:12
No, I do not believe in God, I never will believe in God, and I will not subscribe to "faith," because faith is blind.

(well have fun in hell) :(

I know there is a God, so I believe. And I am Christian. :)

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 15:16
I can say I don't believe in the existence of a God, like I do in most of these threads, but I think it's important to point out that the reason I don't believe in the existence of a god isn't because I have evidence that there isn't one, but because I don't have evidence that there is.

Geck-o-Lizard
08-10-07, 15:21
(well have fun in hell) :(

Very open-minded of you there.

I've already posted in this thread back when it was fresh, but I'll post again... I do not believe in God. And I find it indescribably maddening that anyone should see fit to say things like "well have fun in Hell" to people who do not share their view of reality.

And Shades, don't multi-post. Use the Edit button.

peffect
08-10-07, 15:27
Very open-minded of you there.

I've already posted in this thread back when it was fresh, but I'll post again... I do not believe in God. And I find it indescribably maddening that anyone should see fit to say things like "well have fun in Hell" to people who do not share their view of reality.

Do you think people who don't believe in God will care about Hell/Heaven (Paradise,) and find people saying that they're going to Hell, "Indescribably maddening"?

I you want my opinion, I don't.

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 15:30
It is possible to believe in the Heaven and Hell concept without believing in a God. But no, it doesn't bother me when people say I'm going to Hell, mostly because more often than not they're talking out their arse. :p

Geck-o-Lizard
08-10-07, 15:31
It's the declaration that I'm going to be punished for not believing what someone else does that infuriates me. If you reckon I'm going to Hell for not subscribing to your religion, kindly keep it to yourself.

Rivendell
08-10-07, 15:33
Gah Jacob.. You just reminded me of a time about 4/5 years ago when one of my best mates (a Jehovah's Witness) was crying onto my shoulder about "how terrible it it is that God is going to destroy you when Armageddon comes."

Didn't know quite what to say to her in that state other than "...It's ok... There there.."

Geck-o-Lizard
08-10-07, 15:34
Oh my. :vlol: :vlol: :vlol:

Joe_16
08-10-07, 15:37
I started a thread like this a few months back, and everything kicked off.

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 15:44
Gah Jacob.. You just reminded me of a time about 4/5 years ago when one of my best mates (a Jehovah's Witness) was crying onto my shoulder about "how terrible it it is that God is going to destroy you when Armageddon comes."

Didn't know quite what to say to her in that state other than "...It's ok... There there.."

:vlol: "Oh, I'm so sorry that you're going to die!"

"Oh, right. I see." What the hell do you say to that? :vlol:

peffect
08-10-07, 15:47
It is possible to believe in the Heaven and Hell concept without believing in a God.
I don't think so.
Heaven (good), Hell (bad) and there must be who will decide that good people go to Heaven, and bad people, to Hell; and put each one in the right place.
I, personally, don't think, sinners/guilty people, will have the same ending as the, good/innocent people.
I also don't think people who are, doing bad things/killing people, will end up as every other human. There MUST be who punish them for the evil things they've done.
But no, it doesn't bother me when people say I'm going to Hell, mostly because more often than not they're talking out their arse. :p
Right. I also don't think it's that shocking to hear that someone is going to Hell as long as they don't believe in the whole thing.

Nathan0107
08-10-07, 15:48
No i dont believe in God!
but i do believe in Jesus lol

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 15:52
I don't think so.

I do.

Geck-o-Lizard
08-10-07, 15:53
I also don't think people who are, doing bad things/killing people, will end up as every other human. There MUST be who punish them for the evil things they've done.

Why MUST there be?

shades
08-10-07, 15:55
I don't think so.
Heaven (good), Hell (bad) and there must be who will decide that good people go to Heaven, and bad people, to Hell; and put each one in the right place.
I, personally, don't think, sinners/guilty people, will have the same ending as the, good/innocent people.
I also don't think people who are, doing bad things/killing people, will end up as every other human. There MUST be who punish them for the evil things they've done.

Right. I also don't think it's that shocking to hear that someone is going to Hell as long as they don't believe in the whole thing.

why MUST they?

What i see is. When a person dies, they rot into the coffin walls. sounds awfuly negative, but it is being absolutely realistic with no fairy tales attached.

danitiwa
08-10-07, 15:56
Why MUST there be?

Yeah, you know life isn't fair right? :p It's only realism.

Oh well. :wve:

Dakaruch
08-10-07, 15:57
i don't beleive in god, and honestly... i don't care what you say when i say that hell/heaven is a misconception! in fact that hell/heaven concept in religion point of view is just a way to incentivate people to do good so that they don't go to hell, but is that conception right? i don't think so, honestly if you want to do good things it should be by your own will, not because of being afraid of going to a place in where "you will suffer forever"! that is all wrong...

you will go to "heaven"-as a state of mind-when you feel truly fullfiled, or you will suffer in "hell"-again as a state of mind-if you do awfull things and you continue to do those without regret...

imo Heaven/Hell are so overrated... :wve:

shades
08-10-07, 15:57
Yeah, you know life isn't fair right? :p It's only realism.

Oh well. :wve:

life isn't fair? how much do you WANT from life?? Life is all we have, make the most of it.

Being good to avoid punishment is not being moral at all. It is like saying, "I dont steal because i might get caught".

But in reality, I'm a moral person and would never steal from a shop even if i knew i wouldn't get caught. I'm not good to get a reward...i'm good because other people are humans too. And you have to realise that their feelings and emotions are equaly important to them as your's are to you. I think this is the core to any moral framework.

george_croft
08-10-07, 15:57
Just as i've said before in this thread, I do believe in a light. But since we're moving into the subject of heaven and hell, I have to say that I do not believe in hell.

According to religion, everyone who sins or don't believe in god (the god that is described in the books), will go to hell. If god is so good and pure love, how the **** would he send a 8 year old atheist boy who died in, oh lets say cancer, to hell? Someone who's been brought up with a certain view of religion, someone innocent who's done no harm.

Just an example of how dumb i think the concept off "Hell" is.:wve:

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 15:58
Buddhism is the best religon. If you get it right, you go to the wonderful land of eternal bliss. If you get it wrong, try again! :D

All right, that is a gross simplification. :p

Benguitar
08-10-07, 16:00
I can say I don't believe in the existence of a God, like I do in most of these threads, but I think it's important to point out that the reason I don't believe in the existence of a god isn't because I have evidence that there isn't one, but because I don't have evidence that there is.


NO OFFENSE but I am curious what "evidence" do you have to prove there is no God?

And believe means to trust with out evidence or proof.:)

peffect
08-10-07, 16:00
I do.
Mind share one or two of the things you're basing your opinion on?

Why MUST there be?

Because Hell is made for "bad people" and Heaven, for "good ones".
If there is no God, then nobody will feel obliged to go to Hell...
... And my mind isn't able to picture crimes happening at Heaven! :vlol:

Benguitar
08-10-07, 16:03
Buddhism is the best religon. If you get it right, you go to the wonderful land of eternal bliss. If you get it wrong, try again! :D

All right, that is a gross simplification. :p

You will get Heaven if you accept Jesus in to your heart which shall give you eternal bliss.... You don't need to try to get in to Heaven you just do or do not. It is called free will.

I am not trying to start a religious war here though.

danitiwa
08-10-07, 16:04
life isn't fair? how much do you WANT from life?? Life is all we have, make the most of it.

I didn't say I wanted anything, I was just agreeing with Grace. :wve: I meant that there doesn't have to be punishment for all bad. It's a pretty cruel world.

Angelus
08-10-07, 16:18
Gah Jacob.. You just reminded me of a time about 4/5 years ago when one of my best mates (a Jehovah's Witness) was crying onto my shoulder about "how terrible it it is that God is going to destroy you when Armageddon comes."

Didn't know quite what to say to her in that state other than "...It's ok... There there.."

Lmao! :vlol:

"It's okay... maybe Satan will like you".

EDIT: One thing I cannot stand if one person shoving their beliefs down your throat.

danitiwa
08-10-07, 16:20
Gah Jacob.. You just reminded me of a time about 4/5 years ago when one of my best mates (a Jehovah's Witness) was crying onto my shoulder about "how terrible it it is that God is going to destroy you when Armageddon comes."

Didn't know quite what to say to her in that state other than "...It's ok... There there.."

:vlol::vlol: :vlol: :D

EDIT: One thing I cannot stand if one person shoving their beliefs down your throat.

Isn't that how all conflict starts? Wars, TRF, school, EVERY where. One person beleives one thing and the other something else, and in a few moments were all bombing each other cause we don't think the same.:rolleyes:

Stig911
08-10-07, 16:22
I belive in a type of God, but not God.

My God is like, all the ancient Egyptian Gods, mixed together, in a way.

So like, one God, with many different forms...

Does this make sence?

Benguitar
08-10-07, 16:29
Nope not to me. It sounds like you are making up a false God to beleave in. (NO OFFENCE)

just not my choice.

Angelus
08-10-07, 16:31
Isn't that how all conflict starts? Wars, TRF, school, EVERY where. One person beleives one thing and the other something else, and in a few moments were all bombing each other cause we don't think the same.:rolleyes:

Yes, but some can accept the opinions of others, but when it cmes to religion it's total chaos.

I belive in a type of God, but not God.

My God is like, all the ancient Egyptian Gods, mixed together, in a way.

So like, one God, with many different forms...

Does this make sence?

If it does to you then that's all that matters. :tmb: It's what you believe.

shades
08-10-07, 16:33
I didn't say I wanted anything, I was just agreeing with Grace. :wve: I meant that there doesn't have to be punishment for all bad. It's a pretty cruel world.

ooh right

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 16:35
Nope not to me. It sounds like you are making up a false God to beleave in. (NO OFFENCE)

just not my choice.

:rolleyeyes: That's ridiculous. I could say that I think you're believing in a false God. Of course I don't believe in the existence of a God so I think that people who think that God exists are, in my opinion, not correct. My opinion may be wrong, so I say 'each to their own' and let them get on with it. You should respect peoples', including Stig911's, beliefs.

Stig911
08-10-07, 16:38
Im not making up a false god.

Thats how i believe the ancient egyptian gods were.

Just my belief.

I dont ask any other people to believe in it.

I cant ever know until i die if my god exists.

shades
08-10-07, 16:40
Im not making up a false god.

Thats how i believe the ancient egyptian gods were.

Just my belief.

I dont ask any other people to believe in it.

I cant ever know until i die if my god exists.

what if i were to tell you that the egyptian god were as false as a flying spaghetti monster?

and i'm genuinly curious, what is so appealing about those gods to you?

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 16:41
The ancient Egyptians were, considering they were around about 5000 years ago, very clever. They had many Gods, but I think the main God they worshipped was the sun, which I think is very justified for many reasons. You can see it, for a start — it's up there in the sky, so it's existence can't, for them, be denied. The other important thing is that it brings them light, heat, and it enables their crops to grow so they can live. It's perfectly sensible, without any scientific knowledge at all, to think of it as a God.

Rivendell
08-10-07, 16:42
what if i were to tell you that the egyptian god were as false as a flying spaghetti monster?


Dont diss the Noodly Appendage. :mad:

Benguitar
08-10-07, 16:42
Hmm well this thread will get very big very very fast. Well EVERYONE is allowed to have their own opinions. So I don't really care what people say it is their opinion and I have my own. So POST AWAY everyone.

shades
08-10-07, 16:43
The ancient Egyptians were, considering they were around about 5000 years ago, very clever. They had many Gods, but I think the main God they worshipped was the sun, which I think is very justified for many reasons. You can see it, for a start — it's up there in the sky, so it's existence can't, for them, be denied. The other important thing is that it brings them light, heat, and it enables their crops to grow so they can live. It's perfectly sensible, without any scientific knowledge at all, to think of it as a God.

but now we know the sun is just a giant ball of burning gas. I can see exactly how they thought the sun was a god. I would have thought the same at the time no doubt.

but the fact is, the sun is not a god.

danitiwa
08-10-07, 16:44
Dont diss the Noodly Appendage. :mad:

Yes, he watches all. :pi: >.>

<.<
http://www.rhodes.edu/biology/hill/hill/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg

shades
08-10-07, 16:45
Yes, he watches all. :pi: >.>

<.<
http://www.rhodes.edu/biology/hill/hill/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg

aah so he IS a man. With oversized cojones.

Rivendell
08-10-07, 16:49
I highly recommend this book:

http://www.play.com/Books/Books/4-/1010867/The-Gospel-of-the-Flying-Spaghetti-Monster/Product.html

:D

Geck-o-Lizard
08-10-07, 16:49
It sounds like you are making up a false God to beleave in.

In my own honest belief, and with absolutely no offense or disrespect intended to anyone here, the Christian/Islamic/Judaic/etc. God(s) are entirely man-made, so the only difference between Stig and yourself is that he believes his own God whilst you believe someone else's.

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 16:50
but now we know the sun is just a giant ball of burning gas. I can see exactly how they thought the sun was a god. I would have thought the same at the time no doubt.

but the fact is, the sun is not a god.

No, the sun is only a ball of burning gas. We know that now, but like you said, I would be happy to accept that it was a God back then, based on the information I would have had.

Stig911
08-10-07, 16:51
The ancient Egyptians were, considering they were around about 5000 years ago, very clever. They had many Gods, but I think the main God they worshipped was the sun, which I think is very justified for many reasons. You can see it, for a start — it's up there in the sky, so it's existence can't, for them, be denied. The other important thing is that it brings them light, heat, and it enables their crops to grow so they can live. It's perfectly sensible, without any scientific knowledge at all, to think of it as a God.

Part my answer exactly.

But i believe there all forms of one main god.
This is why they appear to me.
Its difficult to explain.

Jacob x5
08-10-07, 16:52
"We apoligise for the inconvenience".

:ton:

Stig911
08-10-07, 16:56
I guess everyone just has their own oppinion.

EVeryone will believe what they want to believe.

People wont change my beliefs, and i woudlnt want to change theirs.

shades
08-10-07, 16:57
No, the sun is only a ball of burning gas. We know that now, but like you said, I would be happy to accept that it was a God back then, based on the information I would have had.

yeah, but my argument was. No matter how much you bilieve in something doesn't make it true.

Which could be said for the many contradicting religions out there. They all bilieve just as strongly as everyone else that their god exists.

Stig911
08-10-07, 17:13
Nothing in this world is true.

People have beliefs to make them feel safe and comfortable, and to have something stable in their life.

danitiwa
08-10-07, 17:23
aah so he IS a man. With oversized cojones.

:vlol:

Homg Chris. :vlol: *Goes to buy book* Mom, Dad, I have chosen a religion; Spagetthism. :vlol:

interstellardave
08-10-07, 17:31
yeah, but my argument was. No matter how much you bilieve in something doesn't make it true.

Which could be said for the many contradicting religions out there. They all bilieve just as strongly as everyone else that their god exists.

If you read enough, you see that there are many similarities between most religions... you have to get past centuries of misguided "teachings" and "interpretations" to see that though. Oft-times you can read religious texts and understand the meaning quite clearly--only to have someone "more knowledgable" than you tell you that it means something totally different! Usually I don't trust their "interpretation"... I trust my inner understanding. ;)

shades
08-10-07, 17:40
If you read enough, you see that there are many similarities between most religions... you have to get past centuries of misguided "teachings" and "interpretations" to see that though. Oft-times you can read religious texts and understand the meaning quite clearly--only to have someone "more knowledgable" than you tell you that it means something totally different! Usually I don't trust their "interpretation"... I trust my inner understanding. ;)

thats why religion survives. because people of great faith disregard evidence. this can be harmful when it really matters.

Veronica Ma
08-10-07, 17:45
thats why religion survives. because people of great faith disregard evidence. this can be harmful when it really matters.And exactly what evidence can one possibly produce to prove there is or isn't an afterlife?

abc123
08-10-07, 17:51
Of course theres a god in my opinion, how did we evolve so perfectly, how did the universe appear out of nothing, why do billions of people beleive in god, how did people produce such propaganda on such a massive scale, what is a miracle, what is a ghost, what is a UFO, what is the aflterife?

That is my opinion, respect it and I'll respect yours.