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Woop Legend!
26-10-07, 10:03
I loved the fly by camera's in tomb raider 1 - 6, where they show a room, or they quickly show where a door opened. However, less is more.

In Anniversary The Final Conflict, you pull a switch and it shows a fly by sequence of one door closing, another opening. Do we really need that? I think it detaches the player more so from the game. Spoon feeds them everything.

I loved reading a walk through and seeing things like 'ignore this door, you won't go in until later' and then later on saying 'you remember this door? It is now open.' TRA and TRL didn't have that kinda feel with any of that. I mean I liked the fly bys in St Francis Folly, but there should be doors at the beginning of the level that we just walk past. Half an hour later we pull a switch and you hear a door openning in the distance. Then it is up to you to find out where the hell you go.

Things like that add to the Tomb Raider feel. Anyone agree?

fondantcookie
26-10-07, 10:10
Sweeping cameras were used very much in the classics to add to the feel of the room. Give you a sense of scale, beauty and intrigue. Show you the new surroundings you've entered, but without giving away too much of wha you need to do.

In contrast, the camera angles Crystal give us seem to be for a different reason. The are use soley to spoon feed us and tell us EXACTLY where to go/what to do.

A perect example is in Ghana. In the room with the flood gate. It shows us the gate, then the chains, then the pully system, then the lever... Rididculous. Talk about patronising. Heck, it even PAUSES on each of the for key sections just incase you happened to not otice the already unbelievably simple puzzle ahead...

I wish they would give us sweeping cameras like the classics. Moving from side to side, giving an overall picture of the room... Accompanied with beautiful music...

Grrrr...

Crystal. Re-play the classics yeh?

Laras Backpack
26-10-07, 10:15
I agree Cookie! :tmb: I've been replaying Legend and the handholding with regards to camera angles really distracts and removes me from the game. It really irritated me more than I expect. It's usually unnecessary and defeats the purpose of exploring for your self!

Woop Legend!
26-10-07, 10:19
It annoys the hell out of me. Like in the Lost Valley in TRA, Lara runs down a corridor, the camera pans up to show a grapple point.

WHAT!

We are supposed to do that ourselves!

Alex Fly
26-10-07, 10:20
I think they aren't necessary.

kacpy
26-10-07, 12:44
Uh, I'd rather have no camera room flybys at all. Stick to Lara POV. :)

In TR1 we only had uh 2 zoom-outs (I'm probably lying cause I only remember the Sphinx one)? And even then we were fully in control of Lara from what I remember. (I don't remember much from TR2&3 camera work so...) TR4+ on the other hand took the camera room flybys to the extremes.

As for pull-lever&camera-show-door, I don't really know...

I mean, in TR2+ a lever and THE door were often FAR FAR FAR FAR (FAR) away from eachother and not what would seem part of the same puzzle. On the other hand in TR1+AOD+TRL+A everything had its place (or so I thought), so I guess you could ditch camera flybys completely.

RAID
26-10-07, 12:48
I remember one from AOD in Tomb Of Ancients, where the camera showed the player the place from top to bottom, without giving any hints.

In TRL/TRA however it was awful. It's practically a built in walkthru of the level. They show you every single ledge, pole etc... in the order you're suppose to "interact" with.

I would like them to use the fly by camera only when entering a huge area, like the Tomb Of Ancients level in AOD. Just to show off the beauty of the place a bit and nothing more.

Zebra
26-10-07, 12:54
It annoys the hell out of me. Like in the Lost Valley in TRA, Lara runs down a corridor, the camera pans up to show a grapple point.

WHAT!

We are supposed to do that ourselves!

Where in the lost valley is that :confused:?

MrBear
26-10-07, 14:31
Things like that add to the Tomb Raider feel. Anyone agree?

Whole-heartedly!

I won't repeat the wise words by fondant cookie, but simply remind everyone of the very beginning of TR4 (the main game, not the training levels).. I can even hear the eerie music in my ears, it was creepy and the sense of darkness and isolation was present before you even took the first step! that's how it ought to be, if you ask me... or, as said above, to show off :D but hinting is a big NO NO!

it suddenly dawned on me that there are so many seemingly small things in the classics that we need to have back, and this is something we can all agree upon (I would be shocked otherwise!), so CD, there's no excuse for leaving hints by fly-by camera off ;)

edit: Zebra, I think he was referring to when you were crossing the river to get to the second cog :)

rowanlim
26-10-07, 16:29
I loved the fly by camera's in tomb raider 1 - 6, where they show a room, or they quickly show where a door opened. However, less is more.

In Anniversary The Final Conflict, you pull a switch and it shows a fly by sequence of one door closing, another opening. Do we really need that? I think it detaches the player more so from the game. Spoon feeds them everything.

I loved reading a walk through and seeing things like 'ignore this door, you won't go in until later' and then later on saying 'you remember this door? It is now open.' TRA and TRL didn't have that kinda feel with any of that. I mean I liked the fly bys in St Francis Folly, but there should be doors at the beginning of the level that we just walk past. Half an hour later we pull a switch and you hear a door openning in the distance. Then it is up to you to find out where the hell you go.

Things like that add to the Tomb Raider feel. Anyone agree?

:tmb: i liked it
it gav a brief (BARELY) of things to come, churns the excitement for the next step we take in the game...very exciting :D

Woop Legend!
26-10-07, 18:17
Where in the lost valley is that :confused:?

The part where Lara climbs the waterfall, shoots the bridge to enable herself to swing across on a pole. She then runs through a small cave and approaches the wooden platform but above it is the grapple ring. And the camera points upwards

domina
26-10-07, 18:21
I've actually always found those annoying, both in the originals and in Crystal Dynamics' games. They were used a little more purposefully and more sporadic in the older games, but a lot of times I'd just get frustrated because I just want to explore on my own.

gtkilla
26-10-07, 18:48
I remember one from AOD in Tomb Of Ancients, where the camera showed the player the place from top to bottom, without giving any hints.

In TRL/TRA however it was awful. It's practically a built in walkthru of the level. They show you every single ledge, pole etc... in the order you're suppose to "interact" with.

I would like them to use the fly by camera only when entering a huge area, like the Tomb Of Ancients level in AOD. Just to show off the beauty of the place a bit and nothing more.

:tmb: They're nice to show off the beauty of the environments, but they're really annoying, IMO. That one in ToA in AoD is terrible, btw. I love diving off the top, but I hate having to watch that 20 second fly-by everytime! :hea: They should at least allow us to skip them like the cutscenes.

Bustus
26-10-07, 19:13
Indeed...

Classics:
Here, have a quick look at this huge area. Enjoying the view? Good, 'cause you're gonna explore the heck outta it. Now get going.

CD:
Ok, here's what you do, first you go over here and then jump to this platform over here. See that grapple ring up there? You're supposed to use your grapple on it. The grapple, you know, right? Good. You then grab this ledge and shimmy towards the left (that's the same way as the camera is panning now) and drop down to this other platform that you clearly see now. Ok, now, there are another series of ledges here. You know, white ones, like the one you just dropped from. They're very easy to see. Have a good look at it, then shimmy the same way as the camera is moving, jump up, shimmy around the corner and then climb up into this passageway here. There you go! Want a treat?

Woop Legend!
26-10-07, 19:14
^ down to a T really :D

MiCkiZ88
26-10-07, 20:23
I HATE(!) the legend & anniversary camera system. Not only the camera fly bys that show where you need to go but the camera that switches position to show the route to a lever or key or something. It was really annoying when I wanted to control the camera and have it behind lara all the time.

Imo, the further the camera is from her the cheaper it makes the game feel. Camera angles from far above are ****ty. It feels better imo, when the camera is behind her and doesn't give away everything from the levels. You have to look for yourself, just like a tomb raider would! Having the camera just behind her and not being able to see behind the corners raises up tension and fear factor. Also the camera in anniversary was extremely BOUNCY. Go to a small cavern or tunnel and the camera will zoom everywhere!

Er.. ditch the fly by's that show the routes where you need to go. Give back the fly by's that show the large open area and play some impressive chanting music.

RAID
26-10-07, 20:43
I hate having to watch that 20 second fly-by everytime! :hea: They should at least allow us to skip them like the cutscenes.

Very true. I'd like that very much. :tmb:

MrBear
26-10-07, 21:34
Having the camera just behind her and not being able to see behind the corners raises up tension and fear factor.

I hadn't thought about that aspect! Good point :tmb:

TombRaider#1fan
26-10-07, 21:44
I liked the little cutscenes in TRA and Legend.:) Not too many though, they didn't need one for example when Lara in TRA opened the door to The Lost Valley level. But otherwise I liked them.;)

And they should let you skip them because they get annoying when you replay.

Ward Dragon
26-10-07, 23:18
I definitely prefer the fly-by's from the classics. They would show off the beauty and scale of the environment without giving anything away. Also, when the camera did show us a door after pulling a switch, it was because the door was very far away so they at least showed us which one we were looking for (but not where to find it). And, most importantly, these fly-by's could be skipped by pressing the "look" button (there were some exceptions, but they all should have been skippable in my opinion).

I really dislike the camera fly-by's in Legend and TRA. They don't just show off a room, they detail what I have to do in it by focusing on the route I need to take. In addition, when I pull a switch, it cuts away to a camera fly-by of what the switch did every single time with no way to skip it, even though it affected something that was right next to me. The most annoying example is the switch in Egypt which moves the statues out into the middle of the room (the one where I have to jump across the tops of the statues on the platforms they are holding). Every single goddamned time I had to retry that thing, I'd pull the switch and then lose precious seconds watching the damned statues move when I could be getting into position to jump across them. The worst part is that the fly-by didn't always leave the camera in the same place (and never somewhere convenient) so I would either die because I wasn't expecting what the camera did, or I'd waste too much time adjusting it because the run was timed. It was so much better in the classics where I'd just pull the switch, tap "look", and then go to it without intervention from the camera.

That one in ToA in AoD is terrible, btw. I love diving off the top, but I hate having to watch that 20 second fly-by everytime! :hea: They should at least allow us to skip them like the cutscenes.

I can't remember that one clearly. Did the game prevent you from saving after the fly-by?

gtkilla
27-10-07, 00:03
I can't remember that one clearly. Did the game prevent you from saving after the fly-by?

On PS2, you're limited to 8 saves which I've already used up on other parts of the game that I like to replay. I didn't wanna get rid of any of my other saves, plus it feels like a waste saving right at the very beginning of a level just to kill Lara.

Jin Uzuki
27-10-07, 05:15
Fly-bys must be for showcasing the level design, not for showing how to go about it. :)