View Full Version : Return of 'Core' Moves... One step closer to that "TR-Feel"...
fondantcookie
30-10-07, 11:57
There's no denying Anniversary was a step in the right direction to creating a superb "Tomb Raider" game (after the dismal attempt of legend).
Its a given that there are key fundamental areas of improvement (notably: large complex levels, isolation, atmosphere, challenging gameplay, longevity etc). Improvements in all these areas will bring the future games closer to the feel of the 'classics'...where you really did get immersed in the game as the explorer. Instead of being hand held down a bright linear path...
:wve:
But what about those other moves present in the originals... Some key to opening up exploration. Others simply aesthetic...
Examples include:
* Sprint (TR3-AOD)
* Swan-dive Somersaults (tap O when driving to perform a maximum of three somersaults) (TR2-TR5)
* Monkey Swing (We had 'hand-over-hand' chains/ropes in Legend, but bring back fully explorable ceiling structures) (TR3-AOD)
* Backflip to grab Ledge (AOD)
* Underwater combat (Admittedly weak in the classics, but it would be Great to yield a Harpoon once again!) (TR2-TR3)
* Climable Surfaces (not up/down simply ladders, bring back the ability to traverse side to side (maybe even AODs ridge climbing) (TR2-AOD).
* Sprint-Jump (AOD)
* Duck and Shoot (TR3-TR5)
Some of these would really benefit level design.. opening up a greater possibility of routes (ie Monkey Swing and fully explorable climing surfaces). :D
Others add very little to the overall gameplay, but would definitly make Lara feel a little more like the Lara of old... Just small aesthetics that add to Laras repertoire of signature moves... :D
In Anniversary, Crystal brought back laras original method of pulling up onto ledges (complete with strain and groans). Although being little more than eye candy, it really did give Lara that 'classic' familiarity...
:wve:
I'd love to see all of the above factors brought back... Most notably monkey swing and increased climbing ability (for their obvious impact on level design). And the swan-dive somersaults should return merely for no purpose other than entertainment...
As it stands with Legend and Anniversary, we're only really at the level of TR2 in terms of explorability with regards to level design.... As Crystal acquired the TR series, Lara actually LOST moves... :( Thus restricting exploration to levels of that when Lara first learnt how to climb in 1997. Theres no denying Monkey bars add a whole new dimension to the level...
What Key moves would you like to return? And would you also like to see some of the more 'useless' (if not visually stimulating) moves come back?
Well its not only returning the old moves... also they have to be done right. Not like a monkey/a certain prince! Lara was moving with grace before now its too weird. Cant say shes a lady! the finesse is gone
Among your suggested moves, I find the monkey swing the best to be added in in terms of usability, function, and in terms of opening more possibilites for level design. As per your suggestion, we don't monkey swing to just go cross a set monkey bar from point A to point B. Let there be climbable vegetations on the walls that grow up to the ceiling, making the normal climbing move (on the wall) transition to the monkey swing move to traverse the vegetations hanging from the ceiling. That way, we won't always have to resort to dangling ropes, pole swinging, and grapple swinging. Agreed, the three aforementioned CD Lara moves are quite useful, but when they are overused, they add to the repetitiveness rather than to the variety of the moves. So if CD does not always want to resort to the BIG JUMPS (which they should), at least ad variety to the ways by which Lara can get from point A to point B. :tmb:
Swan-dive somersaults???:confused: How come I never knew about them? And i played all the classic TRs:( Feel embarrassed...
fondantcookie
30-10-07, 12:58
:Offtopic:
Swan-dive somersaults???:confused: How come I never knew about them? And i played all the classic TRs:( Feel embarrassed...
BlackMerc. The swan dive Somersaults first appeared in TR2. And continued until TR5.
Find a HIGH platform. Swandive off, and tap circle (roll) as she dives vertically!!!
Depending on the hight of the platform you jump off, you can get a maximum of three somersaults !!!
It adds a bit of style to those classy deaths from high up !
EDIT: Notable places to perform the move are: From atop the great wall, off the REALLY high ladder in Diving area, into the gorge in Tibetan Foothills, \and Light a flare before diving off the floating islands... :D
:wve:
Its amazing how many people don't know about this move :p
EDIT 2: Heres a vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQLpRDzJS-Q
I think TRL/TRA's main problem as far as controls and level design are concerned is the lack of exploration and interaction. The missing moves you mention are just a part of it, the tip of the iceberg. I miss that feeling of being Lara and controlling her every step, the freedom to choose my own way and to go where no level designer ever expected me to go. How it's done, I don't care, but the levels have to become more like a real world with real physics (exaggerated, of course) instead of a series of platforms with beautiful, but pointless backdrops.
Yes, having some of these moves would sure help make the level design at least slightly more varied. I am very tired of all those stupid ledges they put in. "Okay, we need something to challenge the players in this room...I know, let's make them jump from LEDGE TO LEDGE! Yeah!"
I though these thread was about taking the old control system back, I was going to say NO!
but yes, I want these moves back, I miss the crawling.
and I would love some underwater combat, with a big harppon gun (such as TR2 renders) and maybe some UW avoiding moves
There is a delicate balance that has to be negotiated between retaining enough of the old to maintain the feel of an established series while also adding something new to keep the series from stagnating.
I would like to see more climbing type moves but not in the old monkey bar horizontal with maybe a slight slant added. I would encourage CD to take a more naturalist approach so that a climb becames a challenge and not just a walk up to the different colored wall and press the up key. Study actual climbers and then mirror the techniques that they use. Have a varied repetoire of moves (the current vertical jump, a side lunge, a slow diagonal climb, a chimney climb etc) that Lara has to use to successful climb a surface. Make Lara study the surface she has to climb to plan a route of attack. This increases the involvement in the game and the difficulty of the level.
If they want that 'TR Feel' they need to make Lara move more grace-full/agile again, more gymnast than cartoon monkey, slow her down, improve her animation and make her lifelike again.
Bring back the backflip and instant turn (rather than the pain of turning the camera 180 destroying the intimate illusion of the avatar). More importantly, the camera system should be camera locked, get that right and all the other things and moves would fall into place. There is just no other way.
I'm a little uncertain about these points. For example, the swan-dive sommersault is a move that is so extremely useless and unknown that adding it would probably go unnoticed by most of the population.
Other moves are problematic because they don't fit in with the overall design of CD's move structure. For example, a backflip to grab a ledge (wasn't that possible in TR2 or TR3 already, or am I confusing a move there?) is not necessary, or even possible to implement in a meaningful way, when Lara will always jump in the direction she's looking and turn automatically if that doesn't match.
That does not mean I don't want these moves back. I really want to have them again. What I don't want to see is them being just bolted on to a system that is, at it's core, not compatible with them (the ring menu in Anniversary is a good example for that). In my opinion, CD should rethink the overall approach to movements, and make movements to left/right sidesteps instead of making Lara turn (as an example, I'd prefer going back to the old controls completely, but that is not going to happen, as it seems).
Finally, there is a level design issue. While we all agree that longer jumps are not a bad thing, one really has to wonder whether sprint is needed. Sprinting is more or less the opposite of careful exploration, and it's addition in TR3 is mainly useful because TR2 and 3 featured areas that were completely out of scale, and far too large for Lara and her normal set of moves. In a game where corridors are narrower and areas can be smaller, but still retain the same level of interactivity, a sprint feature is not as important.
Great thread.
As for the aesthetic things - I would really prefer more camouflaged climbable walls / camouflaged overhead vines, etc...
I'm not sure the "look" button will ever make a return, but it's useful to not have all the answers/paths presented right on screen in front of Lara's nose because the solution might be directly above Lara's head / down below and only viewable from a certain position/angle etc... So something which kind of simulates that type of exploring would be good also.
I definately think there should be a holstered back-flip/side flip move. TRA could have done with a bit more in the way of dead-ends and false levers/buttons/puzzles just to throw you off the scent of the real solutions (core's TR4 had so much of this all over the place - I loved it:-0
I'd like the AoD wallclimb and associated ceiling monkey swing. I think it'd work well with the other climbing and wallrun moves used in TR:A. Both Mona and Samsdad make good points about increasing challenge and interaction in the environments.
Bring back the backflip and instant turn (rather than the pain of turning the camera 180 destroying the intimate illusion of the avatar). More importantly, the camera system should be camera locked, get that right and all the other things and moves would fall into place. There is just no other way.I must admit I did find the reverse roll useful.
I agree with everything you have said... but I would like to add one thing... FLARES! Not the ones in Legend were you throw them... I want to let Lara carry them throughout the tomb!
I am very much happy with the Crystal Dynamics controls :wve: Much better for me to play imo. And why doesn't everyone just forget about old Core Design, their never going to come back. And we cannot just expect CD to return most of the things Core used, like their voices for Lara, controls, or characters :o
fondantcookie
30-10-07, 23:53
we cannot just expect CD to return most of the things Core used, like their voices for Lara, controls, or characters :o
Maybe you should read the initial post again ...
:p
:wve:
MadCroy101
30-10-07, 23:54
There's no denying Anniversary was a step in the right direction to creating a superb "Tomb Raider" game (after the dismal attempt of legend).
Its a given that there are key fundamental areas of improvement (notably: large complex levels, isolation, atmosphere, challenging gameplay, longevity etc). Improvements in all these areas will bring the future games closer to the feel of the 'classics'...where you really did get immersed in the game as the explorer. Instead of being hand held down a bright linear path...
:wve:
But what about those other moves present in the originals... Some key to opening up exploration. Others simply aesthetic...
Examples include:
* Sprint (TR3-AOD)
* Swan-dive Somersaults (tap O when driving to perform a maximum of three somersaults) (TR2-TR5)
* Monkey Swing (We had 'hand-over-hand' chains/ropes in Legend, but bring back fully explorable ceiling structures) (TR3-AOD)
* Backflip to grab Ledge (AOD)
* Underwater combat (Admittedly weak in the classics, but it would be Great to yield a Harpoon once again!) (TR2-TR3)
* Climable Surfaces (not up/down simply ladders, bring back the ability to traverse side to side (maybe even AODs ridge climbing) (TR2-AOD).
* Sprint-Jump (AOD)
* Duck and Shoot (TR3-TR5)
Some of these would really benefit level design.. opening up a greater possibility of routes (ie Monkey Swing and fully explorable climing surfaces). :D
Others add very little to the overall gameplay, but would definitly make Lara feel a little more like the Lara of old... Just small aesthetics that add to Laras repertoire of signature moves... :D
In Anniversary, Crystal brought back laras original method of pulling up onto ledges (complete with strain and groans). Although being little more than eye candy, it really did give Lara that 'classic' familiarity...
:wve:
I'd love to see all of the above factors brought back... Most notably monkey swing and increased climbing ability (for their obvious impact on level design). And the swan-dive somersaults should return merely for no purpose other than entertainment...
As it stands with Legend and Anniversary, we're only really at the level of TR2 in terms of explorability with regards to level design.... As Crystal acquired the TR series, Lara actually LOST moves... :( Thus restricting exploration to levels of that when Lara first learnt how to climb in 1997. Theres no denying Monkey bars add a whole new dimension to the level...
What Key moves would you like to return? And would you also like to see some of the more 'useless' (if not visually stimulating) moves come back?
I agree with all of this, but don't you want the vertical pole swing? I have always loved that from TR5, it was better back then than in Legend or in anniversary. And i am being completely honest about that:D IMO
Maybe you should read the initial post again ...
:p
:wve:
What do you mean.. I said controls.
:confused: ^ Exactly, this thread is about moves and animations. Nothing to do with controls.
And Samsdad, I love this:
I would like to see more climbing type moves but not in the old monkey bar horizontal with maybe a slight slant added. I would encourage CD to take a more naturalist approach so that a climb becames a challenge and not just a walk up to the different colored wall and press the up key. Study actual climbers and then mirror the techniques that they use. Have a varied repetoire of moves (the current vertical jump, a side lunge, a slow diagonal climb, a chimney climb etc) that Lara has to use to successful climb a surface. Make Lara study the surface she has to climb to plan a route of attack. This increases the involvement in the game and the difficulty of the level.
Well, to me, moves and controls are the same thing.
I guess I didn't word it right
Shame on me :smk::rolleyes:
I meant to say controls as in "Controlling her different moves"
TombRaider#1fan
31-10-07, 00:52
"Backflip to grab Ledge (AOD)"
You can do that? :confused::D
Anyway I didn't notice the somersault-swandive either, so some of these moves are not that useful if added now as some of you said. I agree the sprint, reverse roll, and well.. most of them are acually good, but the new ones are just as useful IMO.:p
I want the sprint-jump back from AOD, it was fun to do.:)
"Backflip to grab Ledge (AOD)"
You can do that? :confused::D
Anyway I didn't notice the somersault-swandive either, so some of these moves are not that useful if added now as some of you said. I agree the sprint, reverse roll, and well.. most of them are acually good, but the new ones are just as useful IMO.:p
I want the sprint-jump back from AOD, it was fun to do.:)
Yep, interesting move it really is... you can also front roll off ducking areas in TR5 and AoD!
"Backflip to grab Ledge (AOD)"
You can do that? :confused::D
I loved that move. But I hated how she did everything in Slow Motion in AoD
tranniversary119
31-10-07, 02:44
The new controls are just fine thank you.
I want the back-flip-roll more than anything else :) I love that move and I always found it very useful. CD gave an alternative with simply pressing back to make her face the opposite direction - But that isn't the same and I prefer the back-flip-roll back, even if it takes more time to perform. Pressing back should make Lara step back, not reverse.
The new controls are just fine thank you.
Moves, not controls.
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