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Cochrane
06-11-07, 20:01
A lot of people see many limitations of current Tomb Raider games (Legend, Anniversary) as hardware limitations and assume that they will be removed when the franchise will be completely based on modern systems (i.e. PS3 being the main development target). I think those people will be disappointed by Tomb Raider 8, because they have unrealistic expectations.

First of all, many issues are design decision, not hardware issues. For example, both Angel of Darkness and Legend target the PlayStation 2, but Angel of Darkness has free acrobatics, as opposed to Legend, where you are often limited to specific ledges and points. This is not a hardware issue, obviously, but a design decision.

Finally, the points that are real hardware issues won't be fixed, really. The main problem with all new consoles is that they are very lacking in RAM. It's more than the old generation, but compared to PCs, it's still very lacking. The total free-roaming world that so many want to see in TR8 isn't going to be much easier on the PS3 than it is on the PS2, especially when you consider that graphics and physics are expected to scale up as well.

So what I'd like to say is, in short: There is no guarantee that the PS3 will bring any significant improvements over what is available at the moment.

Chiki Mina
06-11-07, 20:32
Is that a speculation or a fact?

AODdigger
06-11-07, 20:50
Right... I won't comment... You're obviously not familiar with some things so am.. I'll keep my tongue behind my teeth... :pi:

Chiki Mina
06-11-07, 20:52
Who are you talking to? Cochrane or me?

Tihocan9
06-11-07, 21:50
Right... I won't comment... You're obviously not familiar with some things so am.. I'll keep my tongue behind my teeth... :pi:

What? That is what a forum is for discussing things and if you are just gonna post that, then why post?

Anyway, I have played it on the Playstation my whole life so I haven't played TR in NG yet so all I really want is it to have a engine/level design like Legend and Anniversary but in next Gen and with enhanced graphics, but really as long as it is fun to play I wont care.

raiderfun
06-11-07, 22:03
A lot of people see many limitations of current Tomb Raider games (Legend, Anniversary) as hardware limitations and assume that they will be removed when the franchise will be completely based on modern systems (i.e. PS3 being the main development target). I think those people will be disappointed by Tomb Raider 8, because they have unrealistic expectations.

First of all, many issues are design decision, not hardware issues. For example, both Angel of Darkness and Legend target the PlayStation 2, but Angel of Darkness has free acrobatics, as opposed to Legend, where you are often limited to specific ledges and points. This is not a hardware issue, obviously, but a design decision.

Finally, the points that are real hardware issues won't be fixed, really. The main problem with all new consoles is that they are very lacking in RAM. It's more than the old generation, but compared to PCs, it's still very lacking. The total free-roaming world that so many want to see in TR8 isn't going to be much easier on the PS3 than it is on the PS2, especially when you consider that graphics and physics are expected to scale up as well.

So what I'd like to say is, in short: There is no guarantee that the PS3 will bring any significant improvements over what is available at the moment.

Improvements will be seen on PC instead of consoles, because everytime new PC hardware gets released, but concerning the consoles it stays the same, for example for the PS3 : 256 Mb of RAM DDR3 and GeForce 7950 GT.
But I bet the last games that would be released on PS3 are going to be great graphically, just compare TRAOD (2003) and TRA (2007) , the difference between these two is quite noticeable . Even for PS1, the difference between TR1 (1996) and TRC (2000) was huge, the first one was so pixelled and eye-hurting , but for chronicles it was better and at least and fortunately they've changed Lara's breast :D
So in general, don't be so desperate if you see that TR8 used bad engine in graphics, TR9 could have impressive ones, who know ! ;)

Limblifter
06-11-07, 22:09
Cochrane's completely right. It doesn't all come down to hardware. Design is a huge part. Moving to the PS3 is going to make some differences, some huge differences, but some some things come down to the creative direction.

Money's a huge thing, too. But that's for another thread.

gtkilla
06-11-07, 22:39
Improvements will be seen on PC instead of consoles, because everytime new PC hardware gets released, but concerning the consoles it stays the same, for example for the PS3 : 256 Mb of RAM DDR3 and GeForce 7950 GT.
But I bet the last games that would be released on PS3 are going to be great graphically, just compare TRAOD (2003) and TRA (2007) , the difference between these two is quite noticeable . Even for PS1, the difference between TR1 (1996) and TRC (2000) was huge, the first one was so pixelled and eye-hurting , but for chronicles it was better and at least and fortunately they've changed Lara's breast :D
So in general, don't be so desperate if you see that TR8 used bad engine in graphics, TR9 could have impressive ones, who know ! ;)

I think the OP's referring to improvements in gameplay rather than the graphics.

But anyway, I think it has more to do with the engine, not hardware. Crystal's current engine used in TR:A and TR:L is obviously not suited for TR. That's why they've developed a new engine for TR8(CDC), let's just hope that it brings in all the great features from past games and some new ones too. :tmb: Cochrane still makes a great point, though. People who think TR8 is going to be a masterpiece just because it's on PS3 need a reality check.

KIKO
06-11-07, 22:45
All i know is that we have to wait and see what happens. :)

Cochrane
07-11-07, 05:15
I think the OP's referring to improvements in gameplay rather than the graphics.

But anyway, I think it has more to do with the engine, not hardware. Crystal's current engine used in TR:A and TR:L is obviously not suited for TR. That's why they've developed a new engine for TR8(CDC), let's just hope that it brings in all the great features from past games and some new ones too. :tmb: Cochrane still makes a great point, though. People who think TR8 is going to be a masterpiece just because it's on PS3 need a reality check.

Right, that's my point. Of course Tomb Raider on PS3 will look better. But will it really be much longer, or have more interactivity? Maybe, but that it is on PS3 is not a guarantee for that.

Orionvalentine
07-11-07, 08:17
Right, that's my point. Of course Tomb Raider on PS3 will look better. But will it really be much longer, or have more interactivity? Maybe, but that it is on PS3 is not a guarantee for that.

I think with a new system developers try to do their best, whilst trying to use the hardware as best they can. The PS3 and XBOX 360 will most likely be a 'safe' game with good graphics, much like Legend in some ways. I believe people need to be baited into a franchise with new things, but a bit of familiarity. It may just be another short, sharp, thrill-ride with bells on it, but people will still buy into the franchise anyway.

Michiel
07-11-07, 09:16
But anyway, I think it has more to do with the engine, not hardware.
It depends on both engine and hardware. An engine using an advanched physics system and complex AI requires a lot of CPU power. If you want to make a fully interactive and non-linear level, it requires lots of calculations. Enemies should not be activated using fixed trigger points (like in all TR games so far), but should instead live there react to what they hear/see.

Some games already require dual core processors to play it at the highest settings. Within a few years games proberly even start to require quad core CPU to handle all physics and dynamic enviroments. This also requires a more advanched GPU, static enviroments are much faster to draw then dynamic enviroments. They can't be optimized by pre-rendering shadows and grouping big parts together.

It does depend on the engine, but the engine depends on the hardware. CPU power will become very important when games will be more advanched. For PS3 and XBox 360 they are proberly limited to already outdated hardware for the next 5 years.

raiderfun
07-11-07, 11:43
It depends on both engine and hardware. An engine using an advanched physics system and complex AI requires a lot of CPU power. If you want to make a fully interactive and non-linear level, it requires lots of calculations. Enemies should not be activated using fixed trigger points (like in all TR games so far), but should instead live there react to what they hear/see.

Some games already require dual core processors to play it at the highest settings. Within a few years games proberly even start to require quad core CPU to handle all physics and dynamic enviroments. This also requires a more advanched GPU, static enviroments are much faster to draw then dynamic enviroments. They can't be optimized by pre-rendering shadows and grouping big parts together.

It does depend on the engine, but the engine depends on the hardware. CPU power will become very important when games will be more advanched. For PS3 and XBox 360 they are proberly limited to already outdated hardware for the next 5 years.

Agreed !
In the futur, there will be many games that will need a quad core unfortunately, and this is why those Quad Core, especially the Core 2 Extreme series are relatively expensive now . :(
Games do need CPU power, but what they need the most is definitely the GPUs , because nowadays games depend more on the graphics card to get a higher FSB than the CPUs, but as I mentionned just above the CPU plays a very important role :)

fondantcookie
07-11-07, 12:17
Im no tech-boffin... and i have very little knowlege of computers/graphics/hardware etc...

But the way I view the situation is this...

Including beautiful graphics/realistic physics takes its toll on the system (high CPU usage???). And as such sacrifices must be made elsewhere... Examples include having smaller areas and levels, and larger loading times to combat the high energy use of the graphics/physics...

Choosing to focus more on gameplay than graphics/physics could allow for much wider open spaces (and hence larger levels), as there is less power being used to produce the graphics/physics and more (CPU Power???) available for large rooms...

Now as I said i'm no Computer Science student... And i'm definitly not using the right terminology...

But i wish future TR games would be less demanding in terms of graphics. This would give the developers more 'power/memory/whatever' to create huge expansive levels like those in the classics...

TRs 1-5 were never particularly 'beautiful'... There were games out at the time with much nicer graphics (Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Tekken etc). And the classic raiders had large flowing levels.... AS soon as TR went next gen (ie PS2 era), there was a greater emphasis on graphics, and as such the level design suffered... (slowdown, smaller compact levels, larger loading times)...

Again, sorry for my use of incorrect terminology... But i really wish companies would realise that graphics/physics aren't EVERYTHING... Heck, i'd be happy with if TR8 looked like a glossed version of the original if it actually FELT like TR and had mind-blowing expansive environments....

:wve:

Cochrane
07-11-07, 14:24
I completely agree with you here. More power should be used for better gameplay, not (only) for better graphics.

Note: Do not care about terminology. I am a computer science student, but I still understand just fine what you are talking about. Just don't use more specific terms than you actually know, because otherwise people might fool you into thinking a WOM (write-only memory) is a great idea and then they'll laugh at you.

Samsdad
07-11-07, 18:30
I agree with Cookie. I am currently playing HL2 and continually marveling at what a great game it is and still they put it and episode 1 and episode 2 and protal and a fifth game all one one DVD and still the graphics were not bad at all.

Ward Dragon
07-11-07, 18:42
@Cochrane and fondantcookie, I agree completely. I've always felt that the limitations in Legend and TRA were intentional design decisions. Even with more powerful PC's and consoles, the next game will still be limited if Crystal chooses to do the same thing.

I agree with Cookie. I am currently playing HL2 and continually marveling at what a great game it is and still they put it and episode 1 and episode 2 and protal and a fifth game all one one DVD and still the graphics were not bad at all.

Is this the Orange Box? My brother is going to get that soon :D

Samsdad
07-11-07, 19:47
The orange box it is!! HL will always be one of my all time favorites.

Carol H
11-11-07, 16:52
But i wish future TR games would be less demanding in terms of graphics. This would give the developers more 'power/memory/whatever' to create huge expansive levels like those in the classics...

TRs 1-5 were never particularly 'beautiful'... There were games out at the time with much nicer graphics (Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Tekken etc). And the classic raiders had large flowing levels.... AS soon as TR went next gen (ie PS2 era), there was a greater emphasis on graphics, and as such the level design suffered... (slowdown, smaller compact levels, larger loading times)...

Again, sorry for my use of incorrect terminology... But i really wish companies would realise that graphics/physics aren't EVERYTHING... Heck, i'd be happy with if TR8 looked like a glossed version of the original if it actually FELT like TR and had mind-blowing expansive environments....

:wve:

I agree! I wish CD would finally take the emphasis off the pretty graphics and put it on great, non-linear, exploring friendly levels. Just look at TRA for example - it is the most beautiful TR game to date, yet the gameplay (linearity of levels, invisible walls, short levels, easy solutions etc.) is what ruined it for most of the old TR fans, including myself. I very much hope that CD will step back for a second and look at the way they're doing things, read the feedback from the old fans as well and reconsider the route they will take with TR8 (whatever it may be).