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rowanlim
12-12-07, 11:18
Does your government provide health services to the immigrant workers?

Because I was wondering that some governments are just silly to ask foreign workers to come to the country & do low-end jobs like labourers, maids, waiters, etc; yet they are not happy to provide health care services for these people...

So what are your opinions about this? :wve:

kryptonite23
12-12-07, 11:23
Philippine Government have some health services that supports immigrant workers.
Because of that,immigrant workers stay here more longer to work.

DickDan
12-12-07, 11:27
I Don't Know <_<

Tthe Spirit
12-12-07, 11:28
I guess... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

ivannnnn
12-12-07, 11:30
I have no idea. :confused:

Never thought about that >_>

Mr.Burns
12-12-07, 11:30
Legal workers: Yes.
Illegal workers: No.

Gregori
12-12-07, 12:13
They are a bunch of ****ers, so I would have to say probably not. They feel its okay to exploit a bunch of cheap labour, give people no rights etc etc

I think healthcare in 21st Century should be a made a fundmental human right. Most people on the planet are afflicted by most of the same kinds of illnesses. You roughly know how many cancers will be diagnosed, how many heart surgeries will be needed, how many people will break a leg, get a bad virus etc etc. It would make sense for all goverments to plan for this and make available the nessicary provisions to treat all these people.

rowanlim
12-12-07, 12:40
They are a bunch of ****ers, so I would have to say probably not. They feel its okay to exploit a bunch of cheap labour, give people no rights etc etc

I think healthcare in 21st Century should be a made a fundmental human right. Most people on the planet are afflicted by most of the same kinds of illnesses. You roughly know how many cancers will be diagnosed, how many heart surgeries will be needed, how many people will break a leg, get a bad virus etc etc. It would make sense for all goverments to plan for this and make available the nessicary provisions to treat all these people.

i agree with you :)

Voni
12-12-07, 12:47
We have the NHS, so if they walked into an Accident and Emergency ward we'd have to treat them (if they were illegal, if they're legal they're fully entitled to it). If an illegal immigrant wanted to see a doctor... I don't know. You have to register with a GP and I imagine it'd be very difficult for them to do so.

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 13:53
Legal immigrants, yes, which is perfectly fine. I don't know about illegal immigrants, but I should hope they can't get access to health care.

Gregori
12-12-07, 14:43
Legal immigrants, yes, which is perfectly fine. I don't know about illegal immigrants, but I should hope they can't get access to health care.

Yeah, they clearly shoud be allowed to die in the street....

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 14:48
Yeah, they clearly shoud be allowed to die in the street....I never said they should just "die in the street". I just don't think it's fair that they should get to use the NHS like everyone else. They're not legal, so why should they be allowed to?

Betal
12-12-07, 14:51
Legal immigrants, yes, which is perfectly fine. I don't know about illegal immigrants, but I should hope they can't get access to health care.

Ditto.

Gregori
12-12-07, 14:56
I never said they should just "die in the street". I just don't think it's fair that they should get to use the NHS like everyone else. They're not legal, so why should they be allowed to?

You say they shouldn't "die in the street", yet you deny they should have any access to services that could prevent that. Thats highly contradictory.

Why should they be allowed to? Compassion and caring for others, human deceny, being a good samaritan etc etc

Quasimodo
12-12-07, 14:57
Yeah, they clearly shoud be allowed to die in the street....

To be fair, a country's infrastructure can only handle so much. It'd be great if everyone had access to health care but sadly it just doesn't work that way.

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 15:00
You say they shouldn't "die in the street", yet you deny they should have any access to services that could prevent that. Thats highly contradictory.

Why should they be allowed to? Compassion and caring for others, human deceny, being a good samaritan etc etcBut bear in mind that not every person in need of healthcare will die on the street if denied that healthcare.

I just don't see why illegal immigrants should be allowed healthcare when they haven't bothered to come here legally like other immigrants.

Gregori
12-12-07, 15:01
To be fair, a country's infrastructure can only handle so much. It'd be great if everyone had access to health care but sadly it just doesn't work that way.


So the rich get first preference, and the poor can wallow in their misery. Awesome.

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 15:03
So the rich get first preference, and the poor can wallow in their misery. Awesome.No, I think Quasimodo was talking about how legal immigrants and citizens take priority over illegal immigrants.

Capt. Murphy
12-12-07, 15:05
In some states they do. That health care has to be paid for somehow. And that takes away from others (i.e. legal residents) that need it too or more than the illegals do.

oocladableeblah
12-12-07, 15:18
I have no clue I don't really know much about the government.

Gregori
12-12-07, 15:38
No, I think Quasimodo was talking about how legal immigrants and citizens take priority over illegal immigrants.

Well, illegal immigrants are 99% of time poor people working in crappy jobs (if they can find one). You suggested that they should have NO access to healthcare. Therefore they are going to suffer and be miserable just trying to scrape by.

Quasimodo was suggesting it was an infrastructural problem that limited access to healthcare. My awnser to that is to change the infrastructure to a more just and decent one. A Trillion was wasted on a war in Iraq, that has brought little good to the Iraqis and killed thousands of people. That money would have been much better of spent on providing more people with healthcare. Same thing goes for the insane ammount of money that spent globally on weapons (around 800 Billion) I think there would be few people who wouldn't prefer it spent on just social causes.

rowanlim
12-12-07, 15:45
In some states they do. That health care has to be paid for somehow. And that takes away from others (i.e. legal residents) that need it too or more than the illegals do.

i totally agree. funds are limited

MiCkiZ88
12-12-07, 15:58
I think everyone gets free healthcare here. We pay insane amount of taxes to provide it. Of course you get a bill (23 or something here) for visiting the hospital. But it usually is free. Private healthcare is more expensive but it's better IMO.

Laurencarter
12-12-07, 16:04
Probably

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 16:15
Well, illegal immigrants are 99% of time poor people working in crappy jobs (if they can find one). You suggested that they should have NO access to healthcare. Therefore they are going to suffer and be miserable just trying to scrape by.

Quasimodo was suggesting it was an infrastructural problem that limited access to healthcare. My awnser to that is to change the infrastructure to a more just and decent one. A Trillion was wasted on a war in Iraq, that has brought little good to the Iraqis and killed thousands of people. That money would have been much better of spent on providing more people with healthcare. Same thing goes for the insane ammount of money that spent globally on weapons (around 800 Billion) I think there would be few people who wouldn't prefer it spent on just social causes.But remember, not all poor people are illegal immigrants.

Yet again, I fail to see why the tax payers money should help illegal immigrants who snuck across the boarder.

Quasimodo
12-12-07, 16:17
So the rich get first preference, and the poor can wallow in their misery. Awesome.

Let's put this into perspective. Yes, the United States is a wealthy country. The neighbouring countries from which a good portion of illegal immigrants arrive are actually far better off than other impoverished peoples in other parts of the world. If you believe it is the U.S.'s obligation to relieve global poverty, and that part of this obligation includes providing refuge to all the impoverished peoples that can make their way over here - then this is very unrealistic. Even at the rate people are coming into the U.S. right now, legal or no, it's barely a drop in the bucket on a global scale.

Amnesty for illegal immigration is not going to solve the problem of poverty. The issue goes much deeper than that, and it has to do with corrupt governments and the world market.

Yes it is messed up how the U.S. spends so much on military spending and relatively little on improving the livelihood of its citizens. I doubt we'll ever see the day the military has to hold bake sales to get money for basic needs. That's a whole other can of worms.

Gregori
12-12-07, 16:19
I think everyone gets free healthcare here. We pay insane amount of taxes to provide it. Of course you get a bill (23 or something here) for visiting the hospital. But it usually is free. Private healthcare is more expensive but it's better IMO.


If you can afford it.

Private healthcare allows funds that could otherwise go to making public healthcare better into rich people's bank accounts and helps make the system more unfair and unequal.

MiCkiZ88
12-12-07, 16:26
If you can afford it.

Private healthcare allows funds that could otherwise go to making public healthcare better into rich people's bank accounts and helps make the system more unfair and unequal.I'm not that rich. I'm a bloody student and I still prefer private health care (i.e private dentists) even if I have to pay 50 - 100 € more than normally. And the health care here changes throughout hospitals. I don't think there are any private hospitals here but some still are better than others. And I'd gladly go 100km's south to another hospital than to the crappy one we have here in our town. They have made so many mistakes there and the doctors like to think/play God. :o

Gregori
12-12-07, 16:34
Let's put this into perspective. Yes, the United States is a wealthy country. The neighbouring countries from which a good portion of illegal immigrants arrive are actually far better off than other impoverished peoples in other parts of the world. If you believe it is the U.S.'s obligation to relieve global poverty, and that part of this obligation includes providing refuge to all the impoverished peoples that can make their way over here - then this is very unrealistic. Even at the rate people are coming into the U.S. right now, legal or no, it's barely a drop in the bucket on a global scale.

Amnesty for illegal immigration is not going to solve the problem of poverty. The issue goes much deeper than that, and it has to do with corrupt governments and the world market.

Yes it is messed up how the U.S. spends so much on military spending and relatively little on improving the livelihood of its citizens. I doubt we'll ever see the day the military has to hold bake sales to get money for basic needs. That's a whole other can of worms.

Lets put into another perspective. Your whole standard of living subsidized on cheap labour/materials in foreign countries. They account for everthing from the food that you eat and drink, the clothes you wear, the car you drive, the medical instruments your doctors use etc etc Obviously their standard of living is going to be crap in these countries and they are going to jump at any opportunity to get even a decent means of living.

Its okay for you to take advantage of all these resources once those nasty immigrants keep on the right side of the border in the machilodoras and don't threaten your standard of living, whilst your societies practices and luxuries demolishes theirs.

Not many people are in favour of the idea of corporate border control (I am) but it should go hand in hand with any immigration policy if society is to be decent and fair.

Quasimodo
12-12-07, 16:45
Lets put into another perspective. Your whole standard of living subsidized on cheap labour/materials in foreign countries. They account for everthing from the food that you eat and drink, the clothes you wear, the car you drive, the medical instruments your doctors use etc etc Obviously their standard of living is going to be crap in these countries and they are going to jump at any opportunity to get even a decent means of living.

Its okay for you to take advantage of all these resources once those nasty immigrants keep on the right side of the border in the machilodoras and don't threaten your standard of living, whilst your societies practices and luxuries demolishes theirs.

Not many people are in favour of the idea of corporate border control (I am) but it should go hand in hand with any immigration policy if society is to be decent and fair.

Why, that's exactly what I meant. You're a mind reader! In fact, I'm careful not to park near any bushes because there might illegal immigrants waiting to jump me and steal my job :eek: I sure can't get enough of these cheap foreign-made goodies, though!

Any role the average American citizen has in the in the impoverishment of other peoples is indirect at best. It's more the fault of other entities.

Gregori
12-12-07, 16:51
Any role the average American citizen has in the in the impoverishment of other peoples is indirect at best. It's more the fault of other entities.

Bull****

Everbody in the western nations shares responsibilty for the impoverishment of other people's. Just look at where goods are made, and how much the people get paid. Its quite enlightening.

Quasimodo
12-12-07, 17:02
"Excuse me, could you point me to the aisle of exclusively American-made goods?"

rowanlim
12-12-07, 17:08
I just wanted to know the government's stand on healthcare subsidies & immigrants in other countries :o

I don't really like the attitude of the government (& people) in some countries where the citizens think that working as labourers or maids is beneath them, so they pull in immigrants (illegal & legal), then the government is reluctant to subsidise healthcare for immigrants, they blame immigrants for crime etc...just felt like voicing how unfair it is :(

Gregori
12-12-07, 17:14
I just wanted to know the government's stand on healthcare subsidies & immigrants in other countries :o

I don't really like the attitude of the government (& people) in some countries where the citizens think that working as labourers or maids is beneath them, so they pull in immigrants (illegal & legal), then the government is reluctant to subsidise healthcare for immigrants, they blame immigrants for crime etc...just felt like voicing how unfair it is :(

And it is unfair. Its part of the whole funky global system of human exploitation that works an awesome hypocritcal principles that put immigrants up against the wall.

rowanlim
12-12-07, 17:20
And it is unfair. Its part of the whole funky global system of human exploitation that works an awesome hypocritcal principles that put immigrants up against the wall.

yes I just feel so disappointed sigh :p

it depends on the situation i suppose...sometimes the immigrants are "troublesome", otherwise they deserve some respect & compassion :(

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 17:52
Bull****

Everbody in the western nations shares responsibilty for the impoverishment of other people's. Just look at where goods are made, and how much the people get paid. Its quite enlightening.And why exactly is it our fault?

Geck-o-Lizard
12-12-07, 18:39
And why exactly is it our fault?

Because we're the ones exploiting them?

That's like stealing a car and saying "hey, why do you have a problem with this? My feet were sore!"

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 19:22
Because we're the ones exploiting them?Not really. It's not like we kidnap them and bring them here to work for low pay.

Geck-o-Lizard
12-12-07, 21:19
They have no real alternatives, and we take advantage of this to insane lengths. That's what exploitation is.

NightWish
12-12-07, 21:32
Probably... I have no idea

Gregori
12-12-07, 22:35
And why exactly is it our fault?

Nearly every item that you but, every little luxury you have was gained by expoiting people in poorer countries by taking advantage of crap wages, crap working conditions/regulations and cheap materials.

I mean nearly everything. This includes the clothes you were, the food you eat, the things you buy for your kitchen, the toys you buy for your kids etc etc THe list is endless. The obvious result of this unfair trade is that people in those countries are going to be worse off and will want to travel to other countries were they have any chance of making a slightly better life for themselves.

This is all our faults!

If you want to do something about it, I would suggest pay a little more and buy fairtrade.

Quasimodo
12-12-07, 22:37
They have no real alternatives, and we take advantage of this to insane lengths. That's what exploitation is.

Well, most people buy stuff at the supermarket and don't think much about where it's from, they're just looking at the price. There's not enough American-made (Or U.K.-made, I'd imagine) products out there to replace all of the goods on the shelves made in China, India, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, etc. that we need. I've no doubt Americans would buy exclusively American if they could; America has become almost exclusively a service industry.

When companies are looking for wholesale suppliers/factories, they'll seek out the cheapest there is, and many countries know this and those wholesalers and factory owners will offer them the most competitive price, no matter the cost to their workers.

What can average-joe consumer do? He can write his representatives and his senators (and receive a form letter response), he can join an interest group or donate money to charities that benefit factory workers, but that all gets drowned out by business interests. Corporations almost always have more influence in lobbying government to make the changes necessary to help factory workers than average Joe and friends ever could, but why would they do that? It'd be a conflict of interests. Someone mentioned instituting corporate borders- could be a place to start in solving the problem.

Mad Tony
12-12-07, 22:40
Nearly every item that you but, every little luxury you have was gained by expoiting people in poorer countries by taking advantage of crap wages, crap working conditions/regulations and cheap materials.

I mean nearly everything. This includes the clothes you were, the food you eat, the things you buy for your kitchen, the toys you buy for your kids etc etc THe list is endless. The obvious result of this unfair trade is that people in those countries are going to be worse off and will want to travel to other countries were they have any chance of making a slightly better life for themselves.

This is all our faults!

If you want to do something about it, I would suggest pay a little more and buy fairtrade.Are you saying that it is the western world's fault that there is so much poverty in the world?

Gregori
12-12-07, 22:49
Well, most people buy stuff at the supermarket and don't think much about where it's from, they're just looking at the price. There's not enough American-made (Or U.K.-made, I'd imagine) products out there to replace all of the goods on the shelves made in China, India, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, etc. that we need. I've no doubt Americans would buy exclusively American if they could; America has become almost exclusively a service industry.

When companies are looking for wholesale suppliers/factories, they'll seek out the cheapest there is, and many countries know this and those wholesalers and factory owners will offer them the most competitive price, no matter the cost to their workers.

What can average-joe consumer do? He can write his representatives and his senators (and receive a form letter response), he can join an interest group or donate money to charities that benefit factory workers, but that all gets drowned out by business interests. Corporations almost always have more influence in lobbying government to make the changes necessary to help factory workers than average Joe and friends ever could, but why would they do that? It'd be a conflict of interests. Someone mentioned instituting corporate borders- could be a place to start in solving the problem.

There is many fairtrade proiducts that can be bought today.

I'm not suggesting that people only "buy american" either, thats not feasible and will probably make the situation with immigration much worse. The people in these countries need to be paid a fair price for their goods and services so they can have a decent standard of life. If they don't, they are going to be miserable and want to emmigrate.

The problems in todays world stem from the fact that corporations are allowed act across mutilple nations, where as the laws of nation states apply to only that state. This keeps people divided and unable to act against powerful corparations. Thats how the corporations and political business interests want to keep it. There is also the problem of the IMF, WTO and the World Bank which derail the econonmies of the developing nations by promising funds if the sell their infrastructure to western business interests.

Gregori
12-12-07, 22:51
Are you saying that it is the western world's fault that there is so much poverty in the world?

Absolutely. They are a big part of the problem. You and me are both a big part of the problem.

Why is this idea so shocking to you?

Quasimodo
12-12-07, 23:03
Absolutely. They are a big part of the problem. You and me are both a big part of the problem.

Why is this idea so shocking to you?

OK then. It definitely couldn't be any fault of the human rights situations in those countries...

I'm curious, where's the fair trade label on these products?

Gregori
12-12-07, 23:06
OK then. It definitely couldn't be any fault of the human rights situations in those countries...

I'm not disputing thats a part of the problem either, but we in the west are super exploiting that human rights situation.

Geck-o-Lizard
12-12-07, 23:13
Are you saying that it is the western world's fault that there is so much poverty in the world?

The western world holds the vast majority of the world's money. That cash wasn't gained through fair play.

Mr.Burns
12-12-07, 23:20
Thus is the result of a "survival of the fittest" mentality that has permeated the western world.

Twilight
12-12-07, 23:23
well in the corrupted gov. system of the western world, the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. its a bit complicated. everyone should have the right for a chance, sometimes being an illegal immigrant is the only way. but its not helping the ones that are already there. the money that the rich has just sits there while the poor work hours just to get a peice. but do they care? no. without the poverty, people wouldnt desperatly need money, they wouldnt do jobs that no one wants to do, and the cycle breaks. pretty disgusting, it needs to be fixed. both the american and latino presidents arent do much to help.

Mad Tony
13-12-07, 07:21
OK then. It definitely couldn't be any fault of the human rights situations in those countries...I feel the same. A large part of it is down to the extremely corrupt governments these countries have.
A lot of people also seem to be in poverty because of civil wars, which again isn't down to us.

Gregori
13-12-07, 23:16
I feel the same. A large part of it is down to the extremely corrupt governments these countries have.
A lot of people also seem to be in poverty because of civil wars, which again isn't down to us.

Thats convenient to believe. "its not our problem" etc etc

Unfortunately, thats not the reality of it. Western nations have been happy to prop up and support corrupt dictatorships and exploit the situation of these regimes all in the name of profit, power and control. We've also been happy to assasinate members of movements that are trying to make the situation better and aid terrorism in those countries.

We should also take into consideration the actions of the world bank, WTO and IMF. Those organisation ask developing nation to drop trade barriers and sell of public assets to western coporations in return for loans to develop. These just help rape the country economically, making people more poor. Joseph Stiglitz, former head of the World Bank wrote a whole book about it Globalisation and it's Discontents

While we shout the ideals about fair trade, the EU and the US still maintain massive trade barriers to stop products from the developing world competing with us in key sectors like farming and agriculture.

Do you know what one of the first things that were done when Iraq was conquered in 2003. It economic policies were turned on their head to suit western buisness interests. The CPA changed everything from taxing, tariffs and quotas to Iraqi patent law. This was done all by decree of Paul Bremer, not in a democratic way. The national banks were sold off to foreign owners etc etc

Quasimodo
13-12-07, 23:50
While it's true that the U.S. has helped some shifty people in power, I still don't see how you can place that much blame on average Western citizens who really can't do much about that.

Mad Tony
13-12-07, 23:52
While it's true that the U.S. has helped some shifty people in power, I still don't see how you can place that much blame on average Western citizens who really can't do much about that.Yes, indeed. And don't blame the citizens of other western countries either.

Gregori, what have you got against western nations? Why are you putting most of the blame on all of the citizens of western countries? Have you even looked at how corrupt and oppressive some governments are?

rowanlim
15-12-07, 06:15
Thats convenient to believe. "its not our problem" etc etc

Unfortunately, thats not the reality of it. Western nations have been happy to prop up and support corrupt dictatorships and exploit the situation of these regimes all in the name of profit, power and control. We've also been happy to assasinate members of movements that are trying to make the situation better and aid terrorism in those countries.

We should also take into consideration the actions of the world bank, WTO and IMF. Those organisation ask developing nation to drop trade barriers and sell of public assets to western coporations in return for loans to develop. These just help rape the country economically, making people more poor. Joseph Stiglitz, former head of the World Bank wrote a whole book about it Globalisation and it's Discontents

While we shout the ideals about fair trade, the EU and the US still maintain massive trade barriers to stop products from the developing world competing with us in key sectors like farming and agriculture.

Do you know what one of the first things that were done when Iraq was conquered in 2003. It economic policies were turned on their head to suit western buisness interests. The CPA changed everything from taxing, tariffs and quotas to Iraqi patent law. This was done all by decree of Paul Bremer, not in a democratic way. The national banks were sold off to foreign owners etc etc

Governments comprise people. People tend to be selfish & idiotic at times. it's a part of life. it's just too bad that innocent people are affected by the selfish thoughts/acts of a stranger