View Full Version : Grapple - Manual Aim
Just like in Tenchu. For those who haven't played Tenchu:
Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj_nlPW2eF0) for the video.
Ignore the super-man flying thing. This will allow us to decide where, when and how to use it. It should also be attachable to anything. Not just rings, or metallic objects, but also, poles (yes the ones we swing on too), tree branches, edges, etc...
The way it was in Legend/Anniversary felt like the game decided where and how to use it. It didn't make sense how she detached it, retrieved it and threw it again in mid air (when swinging from one ring to another)
It could be used for swinging, getting to high places by walking upwards on the walls (up sailing or whatever you call it), along with other uses.
Thoughts.
Thats exactly how the Grapple should work, thats what i want.
That'd would be a nice idea but the game would loose its realism . :p
But there's something that should be improved in grappling , you said it RAID in your post , it is the way she detaches it : it is so unrealistic ! The action happens quickly and we do not know how she does . So in general, a new use of the grapple would be great but please keep its realism.
I always use maual aim for the grapple anyway. Pressing a button and having to automatically attach to a target is lazy.
I hope we have to do it manually this time, but I highly suspect it'll work exactly the same way it did in legend and TR:A.
http://i16.tinypic.com/8axmzhc.png
This screenshot to me, suggests it'll be the same as legend.
Why?
The camera angle for a start. It'll probably be a matter of 'Enter room, see sparkle/grapple prompt, press button, auto-attach'.
Riv - you can't tell anything about a camera from screenshots as the developers will have a manual camera they can set to ANY position they want to get the screenshot they want. A lot of Legend and Anniversary screenshots came from a camera position the developers manually set up.
But I hope it is sort of like Tenchu though. I like being able to grapple pretty much anything I want :).
I hope we have to do it manually this time, but I highly suspect it'll work exactly the same way it did in legend and TR:A.
http://i16.tinypic.com/8axmzhc.png
This screenshot to me, suggests it'll be the same as legend.
Why?
The camera angle for a start. It'll probably be a matter of 'Enter room, see sparkle/grapple prompt, press button, auto-attach'.
Hmm. Same here. Just the fact that there are obvious targets (such as the one shown in the picture) makes me think that there are only certain places where you can use the grapple successfully. However, that doesn't eliminate the possibility that we can still use manual-aim. In Anniversary and Legend (PS2), if you press the right (if my memory serves me correct) analogue stick, the camera will shift to an over-the-shoulder view (like in RE4). From there, there was a white reticule showing where you can target your guns. I think this simple camera system can work in employing manual aim for the grapple. The only problem is the actual amount of interactivity there is for using the grapple.
That's true Ding, I forgot about that.
Well I still think it'll be the same as legend - because that way it's used in a fast-paced-exciting way. Run, jump, grapple, swing; instead of: Run, stop. Look around for grapple point, aim grapple, throw it, jump, swing.
I prefer the second myself, but I get the feeling Crystal feel a moment like the above spoils gameplay by bringing all the running and hopping to a halt. Personally I see it as something that draws me more into the game world, because I'm having to actually search for something manually and therefore I'm exploring that little bit more.
That's true Ding, I forgot about that.
Well I still think it'll be the same as legend - because that way it's used in a fast-paced-exciting way. Run, jump, grapple, swing; instead of: Run, stop. Look around for grapple point, aim grapple, throw it, jump, swing.
I prefer the second myself, but I get the feeling Crystal feel a moment like the above spoils gameplay by bringing all the running and hopping to a halt. Personally I see it as something that draws me more into the game world, because I'm having to actually search for something manually and therefore I'm exploring that little bit more.
Agreed.
By holding square (PS3) or whatever key the grapple will have, the camera could go in first person view with that cross-hair in the middle to show where the grapple will attach and once you let go square, Lara throws it.
To implement this for swinging, Lara could throw and attach the grapple in the method mentioned above, and while it's attached and she's still holding on to it, the player could make her run off the edge, and then she starts to swings normally.
but if using grapple aim would be manual game can be very frustrating. For example without auto grapple aim you'd never ever had passed that place in atlantis where were poles and hooks
but if using grapple aim would be manual game can be very frustrating. For example without auto grapple aim you'd never ever had passed that place in atlantis where were poles and hooks
All the more reason. Avoiding overusing and nonsense throwing in mid air without aiming. As if that level was fun anyway...Where's the fun in the game attaching it for you...We're suppose to be in control of Lara, so Crystal, let us be in control.
Well its magnetic so its not going to attach to most things anyway, and we could always use manual aim if we wanted to.
All the more reason. Avoiding overusing and nonsense throwing in mid air without aiming. As if that level was fun anyway...Where's the fun in the game attaching it for you...We're suppose to be in control of Lara, so Crystal, let us be in control.
Yeah you are right. Not only it would make the game more fun, but it will mean that there will be less grapple ring. I really like the grapple, I think it just need some improvement and that we should use it less.
I really don't want the game to depend on throwing grapple in the nick of the time and in the needed place. If the camera will suck as it suckd in TRA the using of manual aimed grapple would be very hard and frustrating don't you think?
I really don't want the game to depend on throwing grapple in the nick of the time and in the needed place. If the camera will suck as it suckd in TRA the using of manual aimed grapple would be very hard and frustrating don't you think?
Have you watched the video in the first post? Go ahead, it's only 40 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj_nlPW2eF0
The game would go in first person so camera isn't an issue. And about what you said about Atlantis, would could also throw it while hanging on a ledge, just as much as we'll be able to shoot.
I like this idea, it would be great indeed. :tmb:
Yeah, instead of it being kind of automatic, we should decide where to use it or not.
:wve:
I think I prefer not being able to grapple everywhere. It'd require some seriously intricate level design to stop a "use-anywhere" grapple from making most levels a complete walk in the park.
I'd like non-obvious grapple points and also points that sometimes don't do anything for you... they're dead-ends. (Same with the swingy bars. They shouldn't always be a path leading somewhere...)
I prefer manual aim, because auto-aim gives away the grapple positions. But...there are times when you need the auto-aim like the wallruns and grapple sequences.
Tthe Spirit
16-12-07, 17:35
Just like in Tenchu. For those who haven't played Tenchu:
Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj_nlPW2eF0) for the video.
Ignore the super-man flying thing. This will allow us to decide where, when and how to use it. It should also be attachable to anything. Not just rings, or metallic objects, but also, poles (yes the ones we swing on too), tree branches, edges, etc...
The way it was in Legend/Anniversary felt like the game decided where and how to use it. It didn't make sense how she detached it, retrieved it and threw it again in mid air (when swinging from one ring to another)
It could be used for swinging, getting to high places by walking upwards on the walls (up sailing or whatever you call it), along with other uses.
Thoughts.
Well this is exactly how we want it.
But i am just so worried.
In one of the screenshots, the grapple hook is attached to those rings from TRA.
And it is very obvious.
They must fix this.
Havent they read any of our complains???? :yik:
The camera angle for a start. It'll probably be a matter of 'Enter room, see sparkle/grapple prompt, press button, auto-attach'.Ugh! I'm not bothered about the grapple usage. But I'm annoyed like hell of the camera angle! It's way too far and gives away everything! Please. I beg of you Crystal. Remove the camera damn angles that give away everything. :o The camera affects the atmosphere as well.
Anyway. I'd love if the grapple would be like RAID suggested.
I think I prefer not being able to grapple everywhere. It'd require some seriously intricate level design to stop a "use-anywhere" grapple from making most levels a complete walk in the park.
I'd like non-obvious grapple points and also points that sometimes don't do anything for you... they're dead-ends. (Same with the swingy bars. They shouldn't always be a path leading somewhere...)
In fact, don't think if it as attaching it anywhere you like. Think of it as multiple grapple points, that blend it. Tree branches, poles that can used for swinging as well, edges to get to really high places, etc...
I agree it would make the game way too easy. I'm not expecting it attach on a plain wall. But if you look at Tenchu, the grapple in that game allows you to access everywhere in the level, and also multi-le ways to reach a point.
If the level are open as the PLAY Mag said, then this would make a great addition to the game. Only if there's Manual Aim with it, otherwise it'd be pointless.
Ward Dragon
16-12-07, 19:27
I like the idea of the grapple being able to attach to certain types of surfaces. If the engine is using anything like the AC one, then maybe it could allow the grapple to attach to any pillar/pole within a certain diameter range, plus any rough surface with rocks that stick up more than a certain number of inches. That way the grapple wouldn't be terribly overpowered, but it wouldn't feel restricted either.
However, from the grapple screenshot, I think it the grapple attaches to rings like in TRA. I could live with this as long as the rings aren't very obvious or out-of-place, and as long as the game doesn't automatically tell me whenever there's a grapple ring. I don't want on-screen hints or automatic camera angles to tell me where to go :)
Edit: I just realized something. If the new engine can really do physics, then it ought to be able to tell if the grapple can hold on. For example, say Lara grapples a rock at the top of a cliff so that she can climb up. The engine should be able to calculate the weight of the rock versus Lara's weight as she's climbing, so if we don't pick a big enough rock it could fall down on us :mis: I'm probably just getting my hopes up, though.
i really hope it'll be the way it was in that vid that was posted. it felt more realistic, and like i was grappling something if it went into First Person View, then u press the grapple to go wherever u targetted. in TR7/TRA it felt so restricted and kiddy.
in TR7/TRA it felt so restricted and kiddy.
Not only that, but if for instance a ring wasn't obvious (none of them weren't obvious, but still, let's pretend), and the player doesn't know what to do, he smashes a couple of buttons, and hits the grapple key, so Lara automatically detects it and attaches it, thus, the game giving away the solution :/
So depressing and disappointing.
I hope we have to do it manually this time, but I highly suspect it'll work exactly the same way it did in legend and TR:A.
http://i16.tinypic.com/8axmzhc.png
This screenshot to me, suggests it'll be the same as legend.
Why?
The camera angle for a start. It'll probably be a matter of 'Enter room, see sparkle/grapple prompt, press button, auto-attach'.
As far as i am aware theres no `sparkle` effect to go `oi look at me` anymore :)
As far as i am aware theres no `sparkle` effect to go `oi look at me` anymore :)
Any chance of manual aim like in the video?
It could be done, since the game is still in the making and has plenty of months ahead of it.
As far as i am aware theres no `sparkle` effect to go `oi look at me` anymore :)Well that's good. But it would be better if there wouldn't be any obvious rings. Just that lara could use the grapple on cracks on the walls or ledges.
That's true Ding, I forgot about that.
Well I still think it'll be the same as legend - because that way it's used in a fast-paced-exciting way. Run, jump, grapple, swing; instead of: Run, stop. Look around for grapple point, aim grapple, throw it, jump, swing.
I prefer the second myself, but I get the feeling Crystal feel a moment like the above spoils gameplay by bringing all the running and hopping to a halt. Personally I see it as something that draws me more into the game world, because I'm having to actually search for something manually and therefore I'm exploring that little bit more.
LMAO :vlol:
i like ur first idea but imagine ur running and u jump off and u release the grapple and then u didnt know that it was kinda slippery or somethin and then lara falls into the spike pit :jmp:
Sonic_Eclipse
17-12-07, 13:48
I'm not to sure if a manual grapple would work right. Imagine you're running away from something and you're coming up to a point where you gotta jump but the gap is too big for Lara to jump, so you'll have to jump and use the grapple. If you have something coming at you from behind, theres no time for manual aim. Really the only solution to the grapple is to make the grapple points less obvious.
I'm not to sure if a manual grapple would work right. Imagine you're running away from something and you're coming up to a point where you gotta jump but the gap is too big for Lara to jump, so you'll have to jump and use the grapple. If you have something coming at you from behind, theres no time for manual aim. Really the only solution to the grapple is to make the grapple points less obvious.
concur. Also manual grap. would be very hard on keyboard. Maybe on joypad it's ok but not on the keyboard
I'm not to sure if a manual grapple would work right. Imagine you're running away from something and you're coming up to a point where you gotta jump but the gap is too big for Lara to jump, so you'll have to jump and use the grapple. If you have something coming at you from behind, theres no time for manual aim. Really the only solution to the grapple is to make the grapple points less obvious.
There in lies the realism and challenge. It shouldn't work like:
run
jump
throw grapple without aiming, hoping it attaches
detach it in mid-air
retrieve it in a second
use the throw of faith again, to attach to another grapple point
it doesn't make sense. Not only she doesn't aim, but by the time she detaches it in mid air, she would hit the ground before even retrieving it, let alone throwing it again.
Sonic_Eclipse
17-12-07, 13:56
And besides, when you're playing a Spider-Man game, you don't manually aim your webbing. I mean that would really take the fun out of swinging around the city as Spider-Man. Adding realism to games is cool, but you gotta remember its a game.
Ok, maybe Spider-Man was a bad example, but you get my point.
And besides, when you're playing a Spider-Man game, you don't manually aim your webbing. I mean that would really take the fun out of swinging around the city as Spider-Man.
Ok, maybe Spider-Man was a bad example, but you get my point.
But spider-man's webs attach to anything, and he doesn't retrieve them ;)
Not to mention his spider sense so he doesn't need to aim.
EDIT: Spider-man is a perfect example of how Lara was in TRL/TRA and how she shouldn't be in future TRs.
Theres always a balancing act to be done with controls and the like (not just on about grapple) Some users want it 1 way, whilst the others want it exactly opposite to that. We cant do both, well in theory we cant do both
Theres always a balancing act to be done with controls and the like (not just on about grapple) Some users want it 1 way, whilst the others want it exactly opposite to that. We cant do both, well in theory we cant do both
Yes, and that's the problem. It seems to me that Eidos wants to please old fans and new fans, and it sorts of mashes together... badly.
I don't want to have a grapple that automatically attaches itself. I'd like to guess where the grapple should go, manually aim at the target and be wrong. I want to feel lost again, not like in Legend where it's literally "Go this way --->".
Necromanser
17-12-07, 14:26
Just like in Tenchu. For those who haven't played Tenchu:
Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj_nlPW2eF0) for the video.
Ignore the super-man flying thing. This will allow us to decide where, when and how to use it. It should also be attachable to anything. Not just rings, or metallic objects, but also, poles (yes the ones we swing on too), tree branches, edges, etc...
The way it was in Legend/Anniversary felt like the game decided where and how to use it. It didn't make sense how she detached it, retrieved it and threw it again in mid air (when swinging from one ring to another)
It could be used for swinging, getting to high places by walking upwards on the walls (up sailing or whatever you call it), along with other uses.
Thoughts.
A very nice addition to the game IMO,sounds like the barnacle claw in HL:OF(Used to have tonnes of fun with it).
Yes, and that's the problem. It seems to me that Eidos wants to please old fans and new fans, and it sorts of mashes together... badly.
I don't want to have a grapple that automatically attaches itself. I'd like to guess where the grapple should go, manually aim at the target and be wrong. I want to feel lost again, not like in Legend where it's literally "Go this way --->".
Proves me point more :)
You want it so its totally manual. Imagine how the guy coding it feels, wanting to make it work as best as possible for everyone. It aint easy. Lets hope the coding Santa is good to that poor guy this year :)
Proves me point more :)
You want it so its totally manual. Imagine how the guy coding it feels, wanting to make it work as best as possible for everyone. It aint easy. Lets hope the coding Santa is good to that poor guy this year :)
They implemented manual aiming with the guns as well. Why not the grapple? I'm sure that Crystal Dynamics is capable of this and more as developers and programmers.
the only problem I have with them is the gameplay style (obvious overused white ledges, auto grappling, etc...)
They implemented manual aiming with the guns as well. Why not the grapple? I'm sure that Crystal Dynamics is capable of this and more as developers and programmers.
the only problem I have with them is the gameplay style (obvious overused white ledges, auto grappling, etc...)
Yeh putting them in wouldnt be a problem in theory, but surely if totally manual wouldnt u spend half the time throwing the grapple at every bit of wall trying to find one bit where it connects.
you say NOW that you wouldnt mind that and its fine, but after you've played it i bet you wouldnt like it being totally manual with no clue where you can and cannot use it.
Yuna´s Wish
17-12-07, 15:50
i bet you wouldnt like it being totally manual with no clue where you can and cannot use it.
Believe me, he WOULD and I WOULD :D
Yeh putting them in wouldnt be a problem in theory, but surely if totally manual wouldnt u spend half the time throwing the grapple at every bit of wall trying to find one bit where it connects.
That's the beauty of it. It's part of the fun to get stuck and find your own way, not beating the game in 2 days. It's also much more satisfying.
you say NOW that you wouldnt mind that and its fine, but after you've played it i bet you wouldnt like it being totally manual with no clue where you can and cannot use it.
If that were true, I would prefer TRL and TRA over the classics, because they (TRL/A) showed us the way.
No disrespect intended jay, but you clearly don't know me. I know what I like, and trust me, I want this :D. Most fans know what they want, and it's not what the developers think that the fans want.
Believe me, he WOULD and I WOULD :D
:D:D
That's the beauty of it. It's part of the fun to get stuck and find your own way, not beating the game in 2 days. It's also much more satisfying.
If that were true, I would prefer TRL and TRA over the classics, because they (TRL/A) showed us the way.
No disrespect intended jay, but you clearly don't know me. I know what I like, and trust me, I want this :D. Most fans know what they want, and it's not what the developers think that the fans want.
:D:D
Pretty much argued my case for me. :tmb:
I try and read as many of peoples posts as possible, but yeh yah right i couldnt possibly know exactly what everyone likes/wants.
However remember tho that the number of people who play TR (any version) compared to the number who play and post on forums about it would be massive (ie a vast majority of the players would never post on a forum, or even know a forum exists, or even know what a forum IS - scary but true)
Not saying ya not wrong, believe me i have a wish list for our games too ;) but we cant all have our wishes listened to.
I try and read as many of peoples posts as possible, but yeh yah right i couldnt possibly know exactly what everyone likes/wants.
However remember tho that the number of people who play TR (any version) compared to the number who play and post on forums about it would be massive (ie a vast majority of the players would never post on a forum, or even know a forum exists, or even know what a forum IS - scary but true)
Not saying ya not wrong, believe me i have a wish list for our games too ;) but we cant all have our wishes listened to.
I'm well aware of that, but this feature would give the game more interactivity, something which both Legend & Anniversary lacked in. I want to feel that I'm attaching the grapple, and that I figured out where I could attach it to. In Legend it was pretty obvious where to use the grapple, and when it wasn't all you had to do was press a button and it would attach itself to a nearby object that the grapple could attach to.
I'm well aware of that, but this feature would give the game more interactivity, something which both Legend & Anniversary lacked in.
and we're aware of that.. ;)
and we're aware of that.. ;)
I added to my post just after you replied. It explains what I wanted to say more.
I do agree with you, its a great tool that could be implemented in a much better way :)
As far as i am aware theres no `sparkle` effect to go `oi look at me` anymore :)
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/159/hurraysb8.gif
I do agree with you, its a great tool that could be implemented in a much better way :)
perhaps there is balm in gilead ...hmmm.
PirateRose
17-12-07, 18:14
Screw that. I don't want to spend ten minutes trying to aim right and grapple. That sounds extremely boring and frustrating. I like my games to be difficult, but this sounds like trying to stick a thread through the tiny needle hole so I can sew a hole in my shirt. It's pointless and I might as well buy a new shirt, save myself the time and move on to something interesting.
As I recall in the Legend and Aniversary, there were times where I'd hit the grapple button, and it would miss, and Lara would fall to her death.
If you guys want manual grappling so bad, you'd think you'd want manual aim as well. TR has had automatic aiming since day one, aside a few sniping guns but you couldn't move around while doing that.
I'd rather Crystal D improve the puzzles, environment, and baddies to frustrate me, then put in pointless manual aiming. At the very least, they should make it an option so I don't have to deal with having to manually aim a stupid grapple.
Screw that. I don't want to spend ten minutes trying to aim right and grapple. That sounds extremely boring and frustrating. I like my games to be difficult, but this sounds like trying to stick a thread through the tiny needle hole so I can sew a hole in my shirt. It's pointless and I might as well buy a new shirt, save myself the time and move on to something interesting.
As I recall in the Legend and Aniversary, there were times where I'd hit the grapple button, and it would miss, and Lara would fall to her death.
If you guys want manual grappling so bad, you'd think you'd want manual aim as well. TR has had automatic aiming since day one, aside a few sniping guns but you couldn't move around while doing that.
I'd rather Crystal D improve the puzzles, environment, and baddies to frustrate me, then put in pointless manual aiming. At the very least, they should make it an option so I don't have to deal with having to manually aim a stupid grapple.
what was that snippet from the article about some people finding faster ways to get through the level than others?
here,...
let's not be silly...
there can be a manual or automatic option for the grapple.
there can be an option for blood/no blood
there can be an option for obvious ledges on normal mode and hidden ledges on hard mode
everyone's happy :ton:
i don't see why CD is perfectly aware that tomb raider players are all in disagreement and then they don't make all these "controversial" features optional.
don't try to mash them together, just give people a choice. you'd be amazed how giddy people are simply for being given a choice, let-alone the ability to make their personal gaming experience perfect for them.
If you guys want manual grappling so bad, you'd think you'd want manual aim as well. TR has had automatic aiming since day one, aside a few sniping guns but you couldn't move around while doing that.
Auto-aiming is one thing. It's been with Tomb Raider since day one. Auto-aiming is needed in TR, moving, jumping, dodging and all that while shooting. It'd be impossible to do so without auto-aim.
But gear is different.
It's like the PLS. You have a button to activate it, but can only do so in dark areas, otherwise it won't work.
Or perhaps the binoculars from Legend. Auto-RAD mode, but use the Binoculars whenever you want...feels kinda like missing half the gear's purpose. Or having the binoculars auto-zooming in on important object and auto-zooming out when not looking at them.
Auto-aiming is one thing. It's been with Tomb Raider since day one. Auto-aiming is needed in TR, moving, jumping, dodging and all that while shooting. It'd be impossible to do so without auto-aim.
Why is there manual-aim in the Wii version of TR:A, then? :whi:
Why is there manual-aim in the Wii version of TR:A, then? :whi:
Surely you can't do what you can do with the Wiimote, with a PS3 controller.
^ Yes, you can. That's what the right analog stick is for. ;)
^ Yes, you can. That's what the right analog stick is for. ;)
I don't think it will be as good though. Think about it. It's like using the computer cursor with a gamepad instead of the mouse. I don't have that kinda patience...:p
Ward Dragon
17-12-07, 23:14
^ Yes, you can. That's what the right analog stick is for. ;)
But then both thumbs are on the sticks, so how do you jump or dodge? (I think those functions are mapped to the triangle,X,O,square pad but I haven't played Legend or TRA on PS2 so I'm not sure) In any case, I absolutely hate aiming cursors with the analogue sticks. I'll be playing on PC anyway, so maybe it would be better with the mouse, but I still prefer auto-aim for the guns.
I don't think it will be as good though. Think about it. It's like using the computer cursor with a gamepad instead of the mouse. I don't have that kinda patience...:p
Sure it will. Tons of 3rd person games with lots of acrobatics have manual-aim and they all manage to score great reviews among critics and gamers. I think TR should adapt a manual-aim combat system for TR:U, it's more important than the grapple, IMO. Plus, I think the possibility for a manual-aim grapple would be higher if we were getting combat with manual-aim . :whi:
Dual-aiming would just make the current system worse, IMO.
But then both thumbs are on the sticks, so how do you jump or dodge? (I think those functions are mapped to the triangle,X,O,square pad but I haven't played Legend or TRA on PS2 so I'm not sure) In any case, I absolutely hate aiming cursors with the analogue sticks. I'll be playing on PC anyway, so maybe it would be better with the mouse, but I still prefer auto-aim for the guns.
Manual-aim isn't completely manual. In most games, once you have the crosshair set on a target, it stays aimed at the target unless you move it or if it moves out of your range. You wouldn't have to keep your thumb on the analog stick 24/7.
Besides, it's unclear if TR:U will be using Legend or Anniversary's combat. In Legend, you can't shoot during jumps or rolls. So, you wouldn't need to worry about aiming if you're trying to jump or dodge.
MillenniumMan12
17-12-07, 23:34
You can use the grapple in manual aim with the pistol manual aim and then pressing the grapple button :D
As for me, automatic seems a lot better. Manual would take too long and be frustrating after a while. Besides, jumping and manual grappling something to swing from would be impossible. If i do it manually, i just use manual aim.
Sure it will. Tons of 3rd person games with lots of acrobatics have manual-aim and they all manage to score great reviews among critics and gamers. I think TR should adapt a manual-aim combat system for TR:U, it's more important than the grapple, IMO. Plus, I think the possibility for a manual-aim grapple would be higher if we were getting combat with manual-aim . :whi:
Dual-aiming would just make the current system worse, IMO.
I guess that the best way to please everyone is to have options. :)
oocladableeblah
17-12-07, 23:57
I personally don't care whether it's manual or not just as long as it's not obvious.
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