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Tthe Spirit
28-01-08, 10:46
I would like to know ideas and opinions about Israeil.
Are you with or against Israeil occupation to the Sacred Land?

Begining by me.. ofcourse not.
This issue seems complex, but it needs a big miracle to free these lands.


U.S. Arab groups went to Israel’s consulate in New York to protest Israel’s blockade of Gaza.

Friday’s protest outside the offices of Israel’s consulate and U.N. mission was organized by groups including the Arab Muslim American Federation, the National Council of Arab-Americans, the Palestinian American Congress and Jews Against the Occupation.

The demonstration Friday was called to protest the tightening of Israel’s blockade of Gaza, which followed a surge in Gazan rocket attacks on Israel and has limited fuel, food aid and supplies flowing into Gaza. Responding to the blockade, Hamas this week blew up the Gaza-Egypt border, enabling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to pour into Egypt to stock up on supplies.

Ahead of the demonstration in New York, organizers announced that protesters would call for an immediate end to the “siege of Gaza,” “Israeli war crimes,” “targeted assassinations” and killings of Palestinians. The groups also said Israel should end its occupation of Palestinian territory and stand accountable for war crimes.

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/106610.html


Jews around the world are totally upset of the things Israeil do by causing total disrepution to the Jewish Religion.
Even with Arabs knowing the diference between Real Jews and Israeil, Israeil has always been the one to do whatever it wants without even anyone judging it.

Like the last time, Sharoan has been given a NOBLE PRIZE for being A PEACEFUL MAN :confused::confused:

Where do you stand?

DREWY
28-01-08, 10:52
I think they deserve a place. Where would you put them?
Or are you specifically talking of Palestine?

myrmaad
28-01-08, 10:57
I see this going nowhere but a fistfight. :hea:

Tthe Spirit
28-01-08, 11:14
I think they deserve a place. Where would you put them?
Or are you specifically talking of Palestine?

Everyone deserves a place.
no one ever kicked them away.
Each country in the world has got people from all over the world.
No one ever kicked them away.
they live togetehr normalyy because we are people, but do Israeilians have to slaughter people to take their houses???
I mean, if it was ever certain that Israeil wont go and break its promises no one would ever say no.
But its targets are pretty obvious.
And if Israeiliands deserve a place, where do you put Palestinians?
they deserve a place as well and it isnt kicking them away from their own habitat to let Israeil have one...

raiderfun
28-01-08, 11:22
We're going to have a huge debate once again :rolleyes:

As a muslim and an arab, I am 1000% against Israel's occupation to Palestine, sure every nation has its place, but going to a country and killing its population and taking their place especially with USA's help, sure i'm sorry this is totally inadmissible. :ohn:

DREWY
28-01-08, 11:23
Everyone deserves a place, but how can those countries ever be at peace?
I'm afraid I don't know enough of the situation, but if everyone stayed to their own borders it would be a start. And Israel does seem to have the numbers stacked against it in the region

raiderfun
28-01-08, 11:29
Everyone deserves a place, but how can those countries ever be at peace?
I'm afraid I don't know enough of the situation, but if everyone stayed to their own borders it would be a start. And Israel does seem to have the numbers stacked against it in the region

They will NEVER be at peace If they continue on this way.
Just look, they've been in state of war for more than 50 years and it still going, and I agree with the spirit on his first post : They need a monumental (If you want) miracle to free those lands.

myrmaad
28-01-08, 11:31
but if everyone stayed to their own borders it would be a start. Wow.

I have to go to school today, but this fragment begs for edification!

At the heart of contention is the seat of three of the world's major religions, and who controls access to it. Beyond that are major political contentions over exactly what the borders are. If Israel would agree to the original borders they were gifted with, the Palestinians would try to live with it peaceably, even though it has Never Ever been a fair situation. I'm getting upset so I'll shut up and go to school.



Israel has my full support. My friend smokes crack, she has my full support. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c117/SeaBlossom/icons/bigrolleyes-1.gif

Encore
28-01-08, 13:06
Oh boy......

rowanlim
28-01-08, 14:57
Well this issue has been a big one which has affected so many lives...

Firstly, no one has the right to wash out anyone from the West Bank. They've made their lives there, no one deserves to undergo all the fighting, the attacks, it's maddening.

Second, this is all down to religion. In any religion, one is taught not to harm/kill anyone. This is the basic principle in any religion. I only hope they get back to that.

Tthe Spirit
28-01-08, 15:02
Well this issue has been a big one which has affected so many lives...

Firstly, no one has the right to wash out anyone from the West Bank. They've made their lives there, no one deserves to undergo all the fighting, the attacks, it's maddening.

Second, this is all down to religion. In any religion, one is taught not to harm/kill anyone. This is the basic principle in any religion. I only hope they get back to that.

This is the problem.
Everyone explains Religion acording to desires knowing that Religion banned from doing things according to what you desire, but it should be according to what best suits all the population, not just locally, but internationally as well.

too bad, no one really tries to sort this out.

USA is in aid of ISRAEIL..
Arabian countries... well most of them are traitors.. they dont agree withone another..
they should all be thrown in Hell.
Sometimes i feel that nothing can ever make a solution till the globe relaly ends one day...

rowanlim
28-01-08, 15:18
This is the problem.
Everyone explains Religion acording to desires knowing that Religion banned from doing things according to what you desire, but it should be according to what best suits all the population, not just locally, but internationally as well.

too bad, no one really tries to sort this out.

USA is in aid of ISRAEIL..
Arabian countries... well most of them are traitors.. they dont agree withone another..
they should all be thrown in Hell.
Sometimes i feel that nothing can ever make a solution till the globe relaly ends one day...

I think IMO...the Jews should just GIVE IT UP. Fighting for something that's NO LONGER THEIRS is redundant, a waste of time, energy, more importantly, it's risking so many lives. Work on what they have, don't you think? *sigh*

This will never be resolved unless they strap down their passions & think of the big picture

Melonie Tomb Raider
28-01-08, 20:45
Simply stated, Israel has my full support. :)

Capt. Murphy
28-01-08, 20:54
Simply stated, Israel has my full support. :)
Here too. It's our duty as Christians to support Israel.

Don't take this personally (Tthe Spirit) but I believe Isreal was called "Palastine" by the Romans way back whenever. It was more or less an insult to the Jewish people. Therefor I don't believe in a "Palastine". It's only a title given by a 3rd -unrelated party that had no business being there in the first place (Roman invaders).

I also believe that the Muslims view the Jewish people (religion wise) as being false. They don't want to share the "Holy Land" with Jews. They want it all for themselves.

Sorry if anything I've said is offensive, but that's all I know about it... Or, have been told. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything here.:o

USP
28-01-08, 20:56
I am 100 percent against the Israeli government. They have us wrapped their finger and us to them likewise. Why are we protecting them again? They have 300 nuclear weapons, I think they can fend for themselves.
The irony, of course, being that we give 3 times the aid to the arabs, their enemies, than we do to them.


Here too. It's our duty as Christians to support Israel.
It is this type of collectivist thinking that causes these problems to begin with.

Capt. Murphy
28-01-08, 21:06
If I had a nickel for every time I read a newspaper headline about another Israeli suicide bomber.... I'd be in debt.

USP
28-01-08, 21:09
And if I had a nickel for every Iraqi civilian who has died in our "War on Terror" (1.2 million of them), I too would be in debt.
What are you trying to say? That all Israeli's are terrorists?

DREWY
28-01-08, 21:13
I think he was being sarcastic there USP :wve:

SamReeves
28-01-08, 21:13
Simply stated, Israel has my full support. :)

Ditto. I wouldn't give the Palestinians the time of day until they renounce and arrest all members of Hamas.

Mad Tony
28-01-08, 21:22
I'm with Sam and Mel, I completely support Israel

Apofiss
28-01-08, 21:24
Here too. It's our duty as Christians to support Israel.

Logic or bliss? :whi:

To put it shortly; any humane human should animadvert US+Israel for such actions, it's plain insane.

USP
28-01-08, 21:26
I'm with Sam and Mel, I completely support Israel

Why?

Melonie Tomb Raider
28-01-08, 21:27
Why?

Because he's cool like that. :cool:

Go Ben! :hug:




What are you trying to say? That all Israeli's are terrorists?

Actually, no. He's saying Israeli's are not terrorist. He would be in debt everytime he heard of an Israeli suicide bomber because they do not exist. Instead of him receiving nickel's, he's losing them. Get it? :p

Hilarious btw. :vlol:

MiCkiZ88
28-01-08, 21:34
I've had way too many arguments with my step mom, sisters and their families about the whole situation (they are from Israel). I support them.. but I believe everyone should be allowed to live freely in their own place. But.. *sigh* It's way too complicated I'm afraid.

I'll just sit back and watch. I feel like this place is going to explode soon.

Mad Tony
28-01-08, 21:36
Because he's cool like that. :cool:

Go Ben! :hug:Lol, thanks Mel :p :hug:

Why?Because from what I've observed, some of the things the Palestinians have done are cruel to say the least.

USP
28-01-08, 21:38
Because he's cool like that. :cool:

Go Ben! :hug:
I think he can answer for himself
Actually, no. He's saying Israeli's are not terrorist. He would be in debt everytime he heard of an Israeli suicide bomber because they do not exist. Instead of him receiving nickel's, he's losing them. Get it? :p

Hilarious btw. :vlol:

I still don't see how he would be losing nickels. He simply wouldn't be receiving them at all. Are we to assume that that is his only source of revenue?

Melonie Tomb Raider
28-01-08, 21:42
I think he can answer for himself
I still don't see how he would be losing nickels. He simply wouldn't be receiving them at all. Are we to assume that that is his only source of revenue?

Well of course, technically speaking, he would have nothing, but saying you're in debt and actually losing money from it makes it funnier. Or at least I think so. :p

BTW, Ben did speak for himself, I just threw in a little support. People do that from time to time you know. ;)

USP
28-01-08, 21:46
Lol, thanks Mel :p :hug:

Because from what I've observed, some of the things the Palestinians have done are cruel to say the least.

If you want to look for a cruel government, just look towards Israel. Do you even know how many times they have invaded Lebanon?
It was Israel who we invaded Iraq for and we are about to do the same thing with Iran.
Maverick Republican presidential hopeful Ron Paul says the leaders of Israel are impelling the White House to wage war on Iran.

“The government of Israel encourages Americans to go into Iran,” Paul said Sunday on NBC’s Meet the Press.

The 10-term Texas lawmaker added that neoconservatives have also been pushing the administration into ‘bombing Iran’.

When asked what he would do as the US president ‘if Iran invaded Israel’, Paul said the illusion of the Islamic Republic’s attack on Israel is like saying, “Iran is about to invade Mars.”

The 72-year-old politician made the remarks as Israeli officials are stepping up their war rhetoric against Tehran, over its nuclear program despite the recent reports confirming the peaceful nature of the country’s activities.

Ron Paul also made it clear that he would cut the ‘billions of dollars’ in annual aid Washington provides for Israel if elected President.
When a prominent American political figure speaks boldly about Jewish-Zionist power, that's news. So the recent remarks by South Carolina's senior Senator that Iraq was invaded "to secure Israel," and that "everybody" in Washington knows it, are indeed remarkable.

Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, a Democrat who has represented his state in the US Senate since 1966, is now serving his final term in Washington. That fact may also help explain why he's now willing to defy the pro-Israel lobby and speak candidly about its power.

It began with an essay about the Iraq war that appeared in the May 6 issue of the daily Post and Courier of Charleston.

"With Iraq no threat, why invade a sovereign country?," he wrote. "The answer: President Bush's policy to secure Israel. Led by [Paul] Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and Charles Krauthammer, for years there had been a domino school of thought that the way to guarantee Israel's security is to spread democracy in the area."
The Israeli government, aside from ours, is probably the biggest group of warmongers in power today. They make the Palestinians look like angels.
They have 2-300 nukes but they are urging us to bomb Iran under the pretense that they may be building one single, solitary nuke? Why is no one talking about this?



Well of course, technically speaking, he would have nothing, but saying you're in debt and actually losing money from it makes it funnier. Or at least I think so. :p

BTW, Ben did speak for himself, I just threw in a little support. People do that from time to time you know. ;)

Cute.

Earthcane
28-01-08, 21:49
I've had way too many arguments with my step mom, sisters and their families about the whole situation (they are from Israel). I support them.. but I believe everyone should be allowed to live freely in their own place. But.. *sigh* It's way too complicated I'm afraid.

I'll just sit back and watch. I feel like this place is going to explode soon.
* Runs from explosions*

:p

I'm sitting on the fence for this one. It's a tough call, and politics gives me headaches :o

Melonie Tomb Raider
28-01-08, 21:52
Cute.

Yes, I thought so too. :D

SamReeves
28-01-08, 21:56
Yes, I thought so too. :D

Me three. :D

USP I'd suggest changing the channel from Al-Jazeera. :whi:

USP
28-01-08, 21:58
I'd suggest not watching the news at all and actually go read the bills being passed in the senate.

DREWY
28-01-08, 21:59
But.. *sigh* It's way too complicated I'm afraid.

I'll just sit back and watch. I feel like this place is going to explode soon.

* Runs from explosions*

:p

I'm sitting on the fence for this one. It's a tough call, and politics gives me headaches :o


I'll join you on the fence. (In my bomb disposal uniform)

Apofiss
28-01-08, 22:03
Neutral position... to calm both sides ;]

A little history lesson. (back in 1947?) US occupaied Palestine, okay it wasn't officially a country yet, so it's a fairly good excuse to occupy Palestinian lands. So they brutally came in and made their 51st state aka Israel. So Palestinian people had no choise but to defend... and till this day US/Israel is forcing them.

Normally it counts as merciless action, but by our time standarts it's called a good business. I wouldn't blame American people as they aren't really aware of their Lords' actions... plus the good life circs makes people think less, it is only humane and normal; I presume I wouldn't care either.

USP, it's not worth it, US and it's 51st state (aka Israel) is too powerful. But not to worry, few know the real facts. ;)

USP
28-01-08, 22:04
http://presscue.com/node/41856
Go read the liberman kyl amendment while you are at it.


Neutral position... to calm both sides ;]

A little history lesson. (back in 1947?) US occupaied Palestine, okay it wasn't officially a country yet, so it's a fairly good excuse to occupy Palestinian lands. So they brutally came in and made their 51st state aka Israel. So Palestinian people had no choise but to defend... and till this day US/Israel is forcing them.

Normally it counts as merciless action, but by our time standarts it's called a good business. I wouldn't blame American people as they aren't really aware of their lords actions... plus the good life circs makes people think less, it is only humane and normal; I presume I wouldn't care either.

USP, it's not worth it, US and it's 51st state (aka Israel) is too powerful. But not to worry, few know the real facts. ;)
That is precisely why I am worried. We keep electing these warmonger imperialists (everytime I see an Obama speech and the people going crazy I vomit a little) and most people don't realize it.

Cochrane
28-01-08, 22:15
First I'd like to address the point that's been raised: "Noone has kicked them away". Untrue. Plain and simple not true. I won't go into detail here, as anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about is not fit to discuss this issue anyway.

Now, as for my opinion: The Palestine and Israel area has had a hugely convoluted history in the past, with lots of unfairness done on all sides. What's done is done, and Israel is an internationally recognized state, so it has the right to stay there, in the borders accepted by the international community. End of discussion.

The second part of the deal is of course the relations between Israel and the palestine people. I do believe that Israel does not have the right to build settlements there, or a wall, especially when it goes further than the borders of 1967, which are the ones that are still the only internationally recognized ones. Also consider the military raids, which are often out of proportion compared to their cause. However, I'm just as opposed to Palestine terrorists killing or trying to kill Israel civilians, by suicide bombings or homemade rockets.

In my opinion, this is not an issue that is resolved by finding out who is wrong and right. A solution can only appear if all parties involved calm down, agree to work peacefully together and are willing to make concessions. As an example, take the illegal settlements in the West Bank. Evacuating them is not a realistic option. But what if they were placed under joint control of Israel and Palestine? Something like that would allow either side to keep their face and hopefully bring peace.

Anyone who completely supports only one side is not helping towards a peaceful solution.

Apofiss
28-01-08, 22:17
It's a complicated worldwide system they control. Most people never will relize nor they should as humanity tends towards umm... inhuman "end" (lol not an actual end tho). Well what can you do about it... must enjoy the present, right? :D

BTW, USP, you are from US? If so, in your place, I wouldn't be so sad about it considering the fairytale quality life US people get. ;)

The Great Chi
28-01-08, 22:22
I do not ever see a solution that will sort this out :(

USP
28-01-08, 22:24
I agree with what you said except the part about joint control. How long do you think that would last? People would end up banding together again, like they always have, towards their fight for self-determination.
Imagine if instead of winning the Revolution, we simply decided that the USA would be under joint control of the US and Britain. People would be going nuts, smashing windows and setting themselves on fire.





BTW, USP, you are from US? If so, in your place, I wouldn't be so sad about it considering the fairytale quality life US people get. ;)

Yes, which is dissolving rapidly, especially since my great-great-grandkids are up to their neck in debt. They owe the government money before they are even born.
To get out of this 73 trillion dollar debt (including entitlements) we would have to raise taxes 104 percent.
Don't even get me started about the constitutionality of 95 percent of the bills passed.

Gabi
28-01-08, 22:53
USP, please use the edit function instead of double posting.
Thank you :)

USP
28-01-08, 23:31
Sorry, they were posting too quickly.
Although it looks like I have you to do it for me

amiro1989
28-01-08, 23:43
Everybody should stay in their own territory.

"I'm a Christian and I think all muslims should die..."
"I'm a muslim and I think all christians should die..."

^ I'm over-exagerating, but if we look at some of your posts, that's what we can understand... It's not a matter of ethnicity or belief, it's a matter of deductive reasoning. :tea:

Apofiss
28-01-08, 23:53
@amiro1989, easy there. You misunderstand USP's thought. Read post #34, #35. Thanks.

Gregori
29-01-08, 01:14
I would support the State of Israel no more than I would support the racist leaders of South Africa or Nazi Germany. Anybody here actually supporting this racist state's actions is being totally absurd. You wouldn't support the things Israel does if they were happening in your own country.

It should not be wiped out but it needs to be forced to come to a peaceful agreement on borders with its neighbours, probably withdrawing to its 1967 borders. The building of illegal settlements has to stop.

rowanlim
29-01-08, 01:30
I would support the State of Israel no more than I would support the racist leaders of South Africa or Nazi Germany. Anybody here actually supporting this racist state's actions is being totally absurd. You wouldn't support the things Israel does if they were happening in your own country.

It should not be wiped out but it needs to be forced to come to a peaceful agreement on borders with its neighbours, probably withdrawing to its 1967 borders. The building of illegal settlements has to stop.

Totally agree with you. I'm abit lost as to what was going on there, asked a couple of pals but it was confusing. All in all, they should stop with the killings, its doing no good to either side

USP
29-01-08, 02:07
I would support the State of Israel no more than I would support the racist leaders of South Africa or Nazi Germany. Anybody here actually supporting this racist state's actions is being totally absurd. You wouldn't support the things Israel does if they were happening in your own country.

It should not be wiped out but it needs to be forced to come to a peaceful agreement on borders with its neighbours, probably withdrawing to its 1967 borders. The building of illegal settlements has to stop.
Hello! Thank you!

Gregori
29-01-08, 02:21
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BE7095BF-0E93-4AAB-A2CA-42B17264D16A.htm

SamReeves
29-01-08, 02:26
You guys sure love Al-Jazeera. :whi:

Gregori
29-01-08, 02:27
You guys sure love Al-Jazeera. :whi:

Whats that even supposed to mean?

Mr.Burns
29-01-08, 02:28
This is one topic I will not express an opinion on other than this: Given the violent history of that particular chunk of land, I doubt peace would be possible.

Capt. Murphy
29-01-08, 02:30
Somebody set me straight here. Please?

1. Which group wants the complete evacuation of the other group from the holy land and is willing to kill said group to have it all to themselves?

2. And which group is willing to share said holy land with the other as long as it is peaceful?

Or am I completely off ^here?

Bowie
29-01-08, 02:31
Ironically, Jesus' most important lesson -- "love your neighbor as yourself" -- is being practiced the least throughout the very "Holy Land" in which the message, and its messenger, were borne.

Gregori
29-01-08, 02:35
This is one topic I will not express an opinion on other than this: Given the violent history of that particular chunk of land, I doubt peace would be possible.

Peace is always possible. Only 60 years ago, Europeans had just come out centuries of kicking the living **** out of each other, now they're unified.

To solve alot of the problems on that chunk of land, you have to look at the causes. Most of the surrounding states in the region agree on a two-state solution , they have done so for decades.

Gregori
29-01-08, 02:36
Somebody set me straight here. Please?

1. Which group wants the complete evacuation of the other group from the holy land and is willing to kill said group to have it all to themselves?

2. And which group is willing to share said holy land with the other as long as it is peaceful?

Or am I completely off ^here?

You're complete off..

How can the Holy Land be "shared" if one group, the Israelis insist in building illegal settlements and bulldozing over people's houses whilst their in them?

USP
29-01-08, 02:58
You guys sure love Al-Jazeera. :whi:

That comment wasn't funny the first time. I already responded to it by saying I don't watch TV news. Or pay any attention to MSM at all.

Bowie
29-01-08, 03:49
That comment wasn't funny the first time. I already responded to it by saying I don't watch TV news. Or pay any attention to MSM at all.
Unfortunately, USP, there's a mentality where if you're not ultra-patriotic, you must be in bed with the enemy. If you question the behaviour of the Israeli Government and its partner-in-crime the USA, you must be a Jew-hating Al-Jazeera-mongering propagandist.

Gregori
29-01-08, 04:08
Unfortunately, USP, there's a mentality where if you're not ultra-patriotic, you must be in bed with the enemy. If you question the behaviour of the Israeli Government and its partner-in-crime the USA, you must be a Jew-hating Al-Jazeera-mongering propagandist.

The funny thing is that Al-Jazeera is not much different from any other news companies in the world. There is this wacky perception that its a pro-terrorist super biased channel. Anybody who actually reads its coverage online knows better.

SamReeves
29-01-08, 04:12
:vlol: Oh boy! Al-Jazeera is about as honest as a used car salesman. :whi:

Gregori
29-01-08, 04:15
:vlol: Oh boy! Al-Jazeera is about as honest as a used car salesman. :whi:

The old saying is right,

Ignorance is Bliss!!

It would be interesting if you could point to an example of Al Jazzera being outright dishonest..

SamReeves
29-01-08, 04:20
Indeed. Have fun with the news. :wve:

DREWY
29-01-08, 04:21
I suppose it depends on which side of the fence you are to what you belive.

I did note though:

Israeli, Palestinian unity

The Israeli and Palestinian peace activists first arrived at the Erez crossing in a convoy of about 100 cars and 20 buses that wound its way from Israel's main cities to the border on Saturday.

Gregori
29-01-08, 04:28
Ofcourse. They are many people in Israel who are against the occupation and actions of the Israeli goverment. What they're doing in Gaza is just causing endless suffering for innocent civillians, collective punishment because the palestinians voted the wrong way in a democratic election.

Cochrane
29-01-08, 06:58
I agree with what you said except the part about joint control. How long do you think that would last? People would end up banding together again, like they always have, towards their fight for self-determination.

That's always the risk, isn't it? But joint administration is better than what either side gets at the moment, so I'd say "Why not try it?". Do you have a better solution? Keep in mind that just saying "Israel must leave", both at all or only retreat fully to the borders of 1967, is missing reality. It won't happen. So to have a solution, you must find something else.

Imagine if instead of winning the Revolution, we simply decided that the USA would be under joint control of the US and Britain. People would be going nuts, smashing windows and setting themselves on fire.

That comparison is flawed, because the issue at hand was different in practically every respect. But even if: Would what you say really have happened? During the revolution, there were quite a few voices that were for staying within the British Empire, but giving more control to the colonies. That's similar to what Canada did, and you'll notice that Canada got it's eventual independence without a bloody civil war. I'm not saying that anyone has done right or wrong historically, but it seems to me that things like these can work out if you really want them to.

As another example, take Quebec. That's a part of france right in the middle of Canada, but thanks to a well established federalized control system, it works out just fine. And even if Quebec secedes from Canada (which has been an issue several times), we can assume that it'll happen peacefully, because both sides have been treating each other with respect. Joint control does not have to be a permanent solution, but it would be a good step towards peace, and all else follows from that.

SamReeves: Al Jazeera's english website is actually very interesting. I'm not saying that they are completely unbiased, but it looks to me like they are trying. If you're interested on another take on all the issues, I'd suggest adding it to your RSS reader along with all the other news sources you have, just for comparison.

Gregori
29-01-08, 07:05
I don't see a peaceful solution as being possible or realistic as along as the Israelis have the exclusive support of the world biggest millitary superpower. They will continue the policy of rejectionism of a settlement aswell and dissolving the Palestinian state with inpunity. The US Veto power in the security council doesn't help.

Cochrane
29-01-08, 07:19
I wouldn't make too much of the US support. It gives them an advantage, sure, but the palestine terrorists still manage to be a pain in Israel's butt. I'd rather say that peace won't happen until both sides want peace. If they do, then I'm certain Israel will start adhering to international law sooner or later, without anyone forcing them. And if both sides (or to be more precise, their political leaders) don't want peace, then there's not much one can do anyway.

Gregori
29-01-08, 07:27
Its a massive advantage

The Israeli state would probably collapse without US economic and millitary aid.
If you read about the history of the amount of bills sent through the UN that where vetoed in favour of Israel by the US.

Nobody is forcing Israel to do anything which is why they act with impunity, building illegal settlements and rejecting international law. It works for their goals, so why would they stop?

rowanlim
29-01-08, 07:44
Its a massive advantage

The Israeli state would probably collapse without US economic and millitary aid.
If you read about the history of the amount of bills sent through the UN that where vetoed in favour of Israel by the US.

Nobody is forcing Israel to do anything which is why they act with impunity, building illegal settlements and rejecting international law. It works for their goals, so why would they stop?

True. I guess it'll never end unless US truly practises the democracy it preaches. UN veto? That's like against the principles of democracy right? :(

ivannnnn
29-01-08, 08:12
I see Israeli is way too cruel. Can't you live in peace at the same place like I do live in plurallistic state? Islam, Christianity and Jewish this time can't live peacefully like in khaliffah era?

Cochrane
29-01-08, 08:54
Its a massive advantage

The Israeli state would probably collapse without US economic and millitary aid.
If you read about the history of the amount of bills sent through the UN that where vetoed in favour of Israel by the US.

Nobody is forcing Israel to do anything which is why they act with impunity, building illegal settlements and rejecting international law. It works for their goals, so why would they stop?

Well does it work for their goals? As far as I can see, Israeli citizens' lifes are threatened by rockets and suicide bombers every day, and practically all of Israel's neighbors hate the country. This cannot be useful for their goals. I just hope they realize that one day as well.

USP
29-01-08, 19:28
That's always the risk, isn't it? But joint administration is better than what either side gets at the moment, so I'd say "Why not try it?". Do you have a better solution? Keep in mind that just saying "Israel must leave", both at all or only retreat fully to the borders of 1967, is missing reality. It won't happen. So to have a solution, you must find something else.
I have a solution for America, its called stop giving them aid. Honestly, why are we their *****? Let them sort out their own borders. Why aren't we in Kosovo trying to help them while we're at it?


That comparison is flawed, because the issue at hand was different in practically every respect. But even if: Would what you say really have happened? During the revolution, there were quite a few voices that were for staying within the British Empire, but giving more control to the colonies. That's similar to what Canada did, and you'll notice that Canada got it's eventual independence without a bloody civil war. I'm not saying that anyone has done right or wrong historically, but it seems to me that things like these can work out if you really want them to.

As another example, take Quebec. That's a part of france right in the middle of Canada, but thanks to a well established federalized control system, it works out just fine. And even if Quebec secedes from Canada (which has been an issue several times), we can assume that it'll happen peacefully, because both sides have been treating each other with respect.
Can we? Look at our own "Civil War". Lincoln didn't grant the South their right to secede and took us to war over it.
Joint control does not have to be a permanent solution, but it would be a good step towards peace, and all else follows from that.

SamReeves: Al Jazeera's english website is actually very interesting. I'm not saying that they are completely unbiased, but it looks to me like they are trying. If you're interested on another take on all the issues, I'd suggest adding it to your RSS reader along with all the other news sources you have, just for comparison.
In France we only got CNN International, BBC, and Al Jazeera. There is practically no difference in the 3 stations. Reeves sounds biased because of the name.

Not 100 percent sure about Kosovo. Its definitely under UN control, I don't know the extent of our involvement.

myrmaad
29-01-08, 19:39
As far as I can see, Israeli citizens' lifes are threatened by rockets and suicide bombers every day, and practically all of Israel's neighbors hate the country.

The Palestinians' lives are likewise threatened every day, and made miserable by, for one example, lack of access to hospitals in their own territories because of roadblocks and checkpoints.

Do you have access to the Documentary channel on Cable?

In my small neighborhood everyone liked everyone else and we all got along except for one bad neighbor. What a jerk he was, a bully, always showing off his stupid crap that no one else even gave a crap about, badmouthing other neighbors.. When we first moved in, he told me one day that the neighbor on the other side of me is a jerk.. Turned out, we found out soon enough, he was the one who was a jerk. Just think how much worse we would have hated him if he threatened us all the time, made it difficult for us to access our own property, squatted on our land, destroyed our belongings, destroyed our property, and destroyed our means of making a living, and threatened to get his big bully friend to intimidate us, as well as all of his other bad neighbor behavior.

If all your neighbors hate you, it's probably a personal problem.

Reggie
29-01-08, 20:42
The old saying is right,

Ignorance is Bliss!!

It would be interesting if you could point to an example of Al Jazzera being outright dishonest..

Agreed. I'd trust Al-Jazeera over the other news stations any day. Simply because they don't dress it all up, sensationalise it and provide extensive coverage on total non-issues as opposed to the things that actually matter in the world.

As for the subject of Israel itself, I won't comment but instead I will read what's being said because I don't know enough about it to not be talking out my arse when discussing it.

amiro1989
30-01-08, 03:42
@amiro1989, easy there. You misunderstand USP's thought. Read post #34, #35. Thanks.

Don't worry, I wasn't mad, I was sarcastic actually

Gregori
30-01-08, 04:37
Well does it work for their goals? As far as I can see, Israeli citizens' lifes are threatened by rockets and suicide bombers every day, and practically all of Israel's neighbors hate the country. This cannot be useful for their goals. I just hope they realize that one day as well.

It works for their goals because they want to take over the whole region (even control the Litani river). Building more and more illegal settlements on occupied territory. These policies obviously are going to put Israeli's lives in danger. Its not a matter of Israel simple trying to defend innocent citizens from the evil terrorists, but everybody keeps picking on it. Its the sole millitary super power in the region, the only nuclear power in the region. It has attacked every single country it has borders with and stolen their territory.

I think Caligula once said "Let them hate me as long as they fear me"

That would be a very accurate reflection of Israel's postion in that region.


Agreed. I'd trust Al-Jazeera over the other news stations any day. Simply because they don't dress it all up, sensationalise it and provide extensive coverage on total non-issues as opposed to the things that actually matter in the world.

As for the subject of Israel itself, I won't comment but instead I will read what's being said because I don't know enough about it to not be talking out my arse when discussing it.

Its not so much that they're unbiased (They cover the news from a more middle eastern perspective)

It just that they're not the big evil terrorist mongorers that everybody makes them out to be. Far from it. People who espouse those opinions are uniformed and don't actually watch or read Al Jazeera. Their coverage is fairly similar to most other news stations. I wouldn't see much difference between Al Jazeera and BBC news. They would be described by many as 'moderate'.


The Palestinians' lives are likewise threatened every day, and made miserable by, for one example, lack of access to hospitals in their own territories because of roadblocks and checkpoints.


Throughout the conflict, a disproportionate amount of palestinian civilains have been killed, way more than Israeli citizens. The casualties from the war in Lebanon 2 years ago illustrates that pretty well. The news doesn't like to report on the disproportionate nature of the conflicts.