View Full Version : Will core fans give up and accept CD if Underworld...
BASEnutter
04-02-08, 18:58
For absolute fans of the originals, who cannot bear to see the difference between the two developers as a good thing...
If underworld is still "tainted" in their eyes, will you give up? Will the constant legend-hating and Core Anniversary praising stop? Or will you simply retire from tomb raider?
For myself...I think I shall just have to accept the changeovers. NOTHING will stop me from being a part of tomb raider.
People don't hate Legend nor Anniversary just dislike some new features which appeared in it. I for one got too frustrated with the classics and gave up on them multiple times before completing them where as in Legend and Anniversary I enjoyed them. I knew they would be short but they were at least enjoyable and had larger replay value than any other TR's. The classics were good but my god did they make me impatient. I like the fact that CD have taken over. Core were going off rail (Demon Hunter?) and losing touch with what made Tomb Raider a good game. I defend Core a lot on the forums especially AOD as I believe it was a good game but Core were getting bored of the same game over again. It was time for change and CD have brought it. Underworld will hopefully clear away any doubt as to what CD can do and will stop all the bickering in the future.
it's still TR..deal with it..at least it's called so...sheesh :rolleyes:
Eddie Haskell
04-02-08, 19:08
Very few individuals who dislike the route that CD has chosen for the game qualify as "CORE fans". It is an inaccurate conclusion that you have drawn, that simply because one is not enamored with CD's renditions that they are automatically labeled CORE fans.
Whoa.. that if anything could start one huge war. I agree with Eddie.
I will like TRU if it is good. I will dislike it if it isn't good. Fair enough answer from an Core lover?
Veronica Ma
04-02-08, 19:14
NOTHING will stop me from being a part of tomb raider.Same here... doesn't matter who's developing it at this point... I'll be buying them all regardless. :vlol:
call me traitor but I love the enw Tomb raider games by CD, the way theyve made Lara so much more human and so much less brutal its brilliant, AoD realy ruined Core for me because of the way the bad guys didnt all seem so bad. and kurtis, he may be AMAZINGLY hot, but i feel that he wasnt necisary and he was a contributing reason 4 my dislike 4 core...along with Lara shooting the helicopter guy in TR3.
TR and TRII where amazing though(from what i can remeber because i last played the original TR when i was in Year 1) but i feel cd realy brought lara back to life :D
For absolute fans of the originals, who cannot bear to see the difference between the two developers as a good thing...
If underworld is still "tainted" in their eyes, will you give up? Will the constant legend-hating and Core Anniversary praising stop? Or will you simply retire from tomb raider?
For myself...I think I shall just have to accept the changeovers. NOTHING will stop me from being a part of tomb raider.
Flamebait much?
ccroft2003
04-02-08, 19:51
I'm a Core lover from TR1 - TR3. From TR4 onwards I lost interest. I still brought all the games but didn't complete them (apart from Chronicles). TRL didn't exactly do it for me (too easy and short) but TRA brought back some of classic TR for me but it could have gone 1 step further still in my mind... Hopefully TRU will be the TR game we've all been waiting for? in 97 when i first played TR1 i could have only dreamed of seeing Lara the way she looks in the new screens released today from TRU - they're amazing!
Very few individuals who dislike the route that CD has chosen for the game qualify as "CORE fans". It is an inaccurate conclusion that you have drawn, that simply because one is not enamored with CD's renditions that they are automatically labeled CORE fans.
Thanks, Eddie.
Whoa.. that if anything could start one huge war. I agree with Eddie.
I will like TRU if it is good. I will dislike it if it isn't good. Fair enough answer from an Core lover?
I agree.
Plus, I don't hate CD, but I would like them much better if they showed some reverence for the great work that Core did. A little respect is in order.
BASEnutter
04-02-08, 21:13
Ok just to clarify! I'm not trying to start a war and I do realise I may have used the worst choice of words ever. Very sorry, thankfully most people understood and we havn't had that. Keep talking, I like your opinions.
ajrich17901
04-02-08, 21:15
This is gonna start a flamewar i know it
To me i dont care whos making the games no more cuz no matter how bad it is ill still buy it, all u guys are like that also lmao:jmp:
To be clear, its not about giving up my devotion to the awesome classic games, its about accepting the new ones post AOD. And yes, of course I would accept TRU if I like it.
In addition, no I will never give up praising/discussing the Core Anniversary game as long as the discussion thread stays alive, and no I'll never give up hoping for a continuation of AOD. If push comes to shove, then I'll just devote myself to getting my own continuation project finished.
I'm a fan for life whether I accept the Legend style or not. (Something I'll never accept btw, I realised that recently). This is why I advocate continuing change. In the hope that this can simply become a disappointing period that will pass by and give way to something I'll be able to appreciate more.
I've already accepted the change over.
It may not seem like it, but yes I know the old days of TR are well and truly over, and now we have Neo-Tomb Raider for the next generation.
I doubt I'll ever stop praising what I like though, whether it be the old TRs, or those Wispa chocolate bars which used to exist, came back for a bit, now seem to have disappeared again. *Cries*
^I've noticed. And when I read your posts, I often yearn that my mind would allow me also to accept these changes on a genuine and fundamental level where I feel the same enthusiasm for the Crystal games as Core's.
I mean, whenever I hear from a crystal employee (on extremely rare occasions) I'm like - oh well that's nice. But whenever I've received contact or spoken to a Core design member I've felt truly honoured. Like they're some kind of gods responsible for enriching my life in some way!
I really am a fan in the truest sense of the word only its just for Core's games unfortunately.
I mean, I don't want to complain, I don't want to feel disappointed but as long as I'm a fan I'll always have that little reminder telling me: the things you loved will never return again in TR.
And after realising I never ever have the desire to complete Legend again or Anniversary which hasn't been completed at all, I know that I'll never come to accept things as they are now. I can only hope the series evolves once more. There are obviously more than two paths TR can take surely?
This is the only hope I cling to now. If TRU is more of the same I'll obviously be disappointed. :(
If Underworld cuts the mustard, then I will love it and welcome it with open arms. If it doesn't, I will lament that TR just doesn't do it for me anymore and then continue playing the classics and TRLE to my little heart's content.
I have no problem with CD as a developer - they made the LoK games, which I love - just that so far, they haven't exactly blown me away with their version of TR... but that doesn't mean I'm about the throw the dollies from the pram quite yet and stomp off in a sulk. As much as I love the old Core games, those days are gone. Yes, I'll voice my opinion... but I will do so as objectively as I can, just like I did with Anniversary and Legend (I stay away from spoiler material so I can play games in blissful ignorance as to locations, expectations etc and just judge it on what it does for me. Basically, if CD can pull off an entire game like their version of SFF, I will be jumping for joy! If not... well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it!)
I think CD is doing an excellent job, and should contine to do so with Underworld, but LENGTH is definately something they need to work on.
Same here... doesn't matter who's developing it at this point... I'll be buying them all regardless. :vlol:
Same.
silver_wolf
04-02-08, 22:01
It'll never stop because you can't satisfy everyone. There will always be someone out there who will refuse to like anything CD spits out.
It'll never stop because you can't satisfy everyone. There will always be someone out there who will refuse to like anything CD spits out.
You make it sound like a choice. Read my post, this isn't about refusing something for the sake of it, its something I can't if I don't like something.
I may not be speaking for all disatisfied fans but I certainly can speak for myself when I say I wish I could join this party you guys have been having since TRL but I'm not able to join it. Not until something gives and if not well I'll always be devoted to the classics come what may.
silver_wolf
04-02-08, 22:16
I'm not specifically talking about you. In some people's case it is a choice, they don't even give the games a chance. As soon as they see one thing they don't like they refuse to learn more about the game, let alone play it before passing judgement.
da tomb raider!
04-02-08, 22:17
If Underworld cuts the mustard, then I will love it and welcome it with open arms. If it doesn't, I will lament that TR just doesn't do it for me anymore and then continue playing the classics and TRLE to my little heart's content.
I agree, more or less.
EgyptianSoul
04-02-08, 22:30
From the mouth of a Core lover...
This is Crystals third try on a Tomb Raider game. They're still rookies, we'll see can they make TR the way it should be. They make mistakes and are learning. It's only fair to give them a chance. Althoug I think the best TR games were made back in the 90's by Core yes, I'll wait and see what can these new guys do.
BASEnutter
04-02-08, 22:30
OOooook I can see some hearty discussion coming up, which is all good, and I agree with Reggie, the classics are the beginning...its what i grew up on, every game I buy now HAS to compare to TR, every girl I look at HAS to compare to Lara, else I find myself not attracted.
Elysia I do like the way you think aswell, its a very good point, although LE for me is taking so long just to do one level...and its not even that good.
Ps. In case it gets out of hand, how do i tell a mod to close the thread?
I don't really mind who develops TR: Core, CD or Mushy Pea Productions, as long as they give us a good game. Then again, that in itself is subjective. Personally I did not like Legend (for quite a variety of reasons), thought that TRA was a step in the right direction and hope that TRU will be a game where I can loose myself in the game play once again.
(fingers crossed)
OOooook I can see some hearty discussion coming up, which is all good, and I agree with Reggie, the classics are the beginning...its what i grew up on, every game I buy now HAS to compare to TR, every girl I look at HAS to compare to Lara, else I find myself not attracted.
Elysia I do like the way you think aswell, its a very good point, although LE for me is taking so long just to do one level...and its not even that good.
Ps. In case it gets out of hand, how do i tell a mod to close the thread?
You can PM a mod of this forum. Fingers crossed this thread will stay constructive. It could be a great oppurtunity for people here to understand others on the opposite ends of the opinion spectrum and find some middle ground. That middle ground potentially being this thread. :tmb:
I don't think you should ever "tell a mod" to close a thread. Sometimes great discussions can get a little bit heated. Instead you use the little Yield sign with the exclamation point that's down at the bottom of each poster's profile to report any post that you think crosses the line. Then leave it to the mods.
Very few individuals who dislike the route that CD has chosen for the game qualify as "CORE fans". It is an inaccurate conclusion that you have drawn, that simply because one is not enamored with CD's renditions that they are automatically labeled CORE fans.
Nail. Head.
Again. :tmb:
I'm a core fan (I'm old enough to start playing TR when it was originally released), but still, I love the new episodes, as long as I have a stride in the jungle (or whatever) alongside Lara. And so far, she always managed to convince me. :D
I'm fearing the day she couldn't anymore, but this time is not yet to come. :ton:
oocladableeblah
04-02-08, 23:13
I have accepted the changes. I like the classics more, but they're over. I never hated cds trs or lara's I just didn't like them as much as the classics.
I don't think you should ever "tell a mod" to close a thread. Sometimes great discussions can get a little bit heated. Instead you use the little Yield sign with the exclamation point that's down at the bottom of each poster's profile to report any post that you think crosses the line. Then leave it to the mods.
Nothing wrong with it getting heated but as someone who's been a member here when this place quite literally turned into a warzone following Legend and the TR:AE cancellation a few months later, I can see why someone would like to have their thread closed to avoid things decending into unconstructive farce. Debate and reasoning is fine, mudslinging, generalisations and aimless rants are not IMO. And it can be upsetting if your intentions are to avoid that when making a thread.
Eddie Haskell
04-02-08, 23:29
Nothing wrong with it getting heated but as someone who's been a member here when this place quite literally turned into a warzone following Legend and the TR:AE cancellation a few months later, I can see why someone would like to have their thread closed to avoid things decending into unconstructive farce. Debate and reasoning is fine, mudslinging, generalisations and aimless rants are not IMO. And it can be upsetting if your intentions are to avoid that when making a thread.
Agreed. Although these types of threads tend to expose the imbeciles and the prejudiced (along with the rational and the intelligent). So in this regard they are beneficial. Those who expose themselves negatively in this way should be forced to have some type of identifying symbol under their avatar. ;)
If TR:U is a great game I'll play it and enjoy it. If it's a great TR game I'll be ecstatic.
If it's not a great TR game then I'll probably still stay around to discuss on here where I think they could do better. Unless I totally lose interest. We'll see.
But I'm not going to stop praising the old TRs no matter how the new TR games develop because the old one's were special. They weren't run-of-the-mill gaming and I had some of my best adventure moments ever in those games. I'll always be fond of them and I'll always think that developers can learn gaming principles from their designs, if they would look beyond a superficial analysis - grid, tank, blocky graphics, tombs. I've yet to experience the immersion I had with these games elsewhere and until I do, they'll remain the best games I've ever played.
Agreed. Although these types of threads tend to expose the imbeciles and the prejudiced (along with the rational and the intelligent). So in this regard they are beneficial. Those who expose themselves negatively in this way should be forced to have some type of identifying symbol under their avatar. ;)
you've got to be kidding me.
anyone rational and intelligent would take one look at the first post and leave ... consider yourselves trolled.
you've got to be kidding me.
anyone rational and intelligent would take one look at the first post and leave ... consider yourselves trolled.
You've got to be kidding me.
I've already outlined the potential use of this thread:
It could be a great oppurtunity for people here to understand others on the opposite ends of the opinion spectrum and find some middle ground. That middle ground potentially being this thread. :tmb:And you consider me a mug for believing that? I don't see why.
If CD can finally produce a game that has the qualities of the classics, then I have no problem giving them their due, praising their work, etc. So far, that hasn't happened. That's not to say that some of their work on TR has not been great, but the final overall package on both Legend and TRA failed deliver the package that most fans that have played all the games expect. Immersion, challenge, focus on historical adventure, atmosphere, everyone knows the list....
I yearn for their success in this regard, don't think I don't.
_Awestruck_
05-02-08, 00:23
Tomb raider is tomb raider. People who say "This is no longer lara" or "They're taking her landmark features away" I'm guessing are 'core fans'. I think CD has done a fair job with the game and has made Lara realistic is SO many ways, let alone up to date with her clothing and gear. I think TRU will impress us all. Really, I do. If they're releasing it nearly 7 months later than TRL+A have been released then it damn well better be a good game. If you guys have doubts the game will bad, then they should just release the game in June. Then it will be terrible.
EDIT: I dont think you guys got my name. I'm Brandon. ;P
Ward Dragon
05-02-08, 00:36
If Underworld cuts the mustard, then I will love it and welcome it with open arms. If it doesn't, I will lament that TR just doesn't do it for me anymore and then continue playing the classics and TRLE to my little heart's content.
I have no problem with CD as a developer - they made the LoK games, which I love - just that so far, they haven't exactly blown me away with their version of TR... but that doesn't mean I'm about the throw the dollies from the pram quite yet and stomp off in a sulk. As much as I love the old Core games, those days are gone. Yes, I'll voice my opinion... but I will do so as objectively as I can, just like I did with Anniversary and Legend (I stay away from spoiler material so I can play games in blissful ignorance as to locations, expectations etc and just judge it on what it does for me. Basically, if CD can pull off an entire game like their version of SFF, I will be jumping for joy! If not... well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it!)
Perfectly said :tmb:
I will always like what I like about TR1-6 (and dislike what I dislike about them) regardless of the new games. I know Crystal is capable of delivering a game I love (they've already done it several times with the LoK series). I really don't like Lara in Legend and Anniversary because she is portrayed as someone who doesn't understand herself and can't fully control herself. However, Underworld Lara looks a lot more mature and self-assured, so I'm hoping her personality will be good again. I hated the headset in Legend because it totally destroyed the atmosphere and immersion for me. Anniversary got rid of it, and although it's supposed to be back in Underworld I am hoping that all of the random dialogue will be optional so I can turn it off without losing actual story-based information. The levels in Legend were extremely simple without any real puzzles. Anniversary was much better in this regard, and the magazines give the impression that Underworld will be better still. Lara's moves in Legend were extremely limited because she lost all of her classic abilities (except for the pole stuff) and gained only a grapple and the ability to ledge-hop (which were all overused due to lack of other possible moves). Anniversary gave her a few brand new moves to add a little variety, and now Underworld will hopefully return the classic abilities, including free-climbing. Plus I hated the unreliable nature of the controls and the way the camera had a mind of its own in Legend and TRA. Since Underworld is on a new engine, I'm hoping that the camera and controls will behave much better.
So long story short, I was extremely disappointed with Legend itself (even moreso when I compare it to TR1-6 or the LoK Series and see what could have been). TRA was a good game in its own right, and a definite improvement over Legend, but felt a little lacking due to how the levels were cut down and condensed from their TR1 counterparts (possibly due to time constraints -- I remember an interview in which a Crystal guy said they were spending extra time on The Folly, and it really shows because that's the level that stands out as the most faithful and complex in the game). Now the magazines are saying everything I want to hear about Underworld concerning exploration, interactivity, etc. so I am hopeful that Underworld will be a game I can enjoy completely without any reservations :)
If Underworld fixes most of the problems that Core and themselves make then the war will stop. Of corse there will be the basc knit picing but still it will all fade away because they did a good job.
navinloveslara
05-02-08, 02:39
For myself...I think I shall just have to accept the changeovers. NOTHING will stop me from being a part of tomb raider.
I'm with you on this one.
TR has been a part of my life for over 10 years, and I'm not going to give it up because the company who revived her still hasn't gotten it 100% right. I loved Legend and Anniversary, so I'm willing to let CD take the time to make Lara theirs and provide a great gaming experience. Legend and Anniversary were great, for me, so I love CD, and I love the fact that they're helming Underworld. I'll look over small mistakes and wait for them to be addressed in the next game.;)
Legend was great, Anniversary was better still, and Underworld's going to be awesome, following what all the magazines have been saying. They're saying everything I want and like to hear. So, I'm extremely positive right now. Only time will tell, though, once we have the game in our hands, then will we only know for sure.
However, I think the demo should give us a great slice of what to expect. That's why I always played the Legend and Anniversary demos over and over, to see what new stuff was coming.
From the looks of it, it's going to be awesome.:jmp:
BASEnutter
05-02-08, 07:57
However, I think the demo should give us a great slice of what to expect. That's why I always played the Legend and Anniversary demos over and over, to see what new stuff was coming.
From the looks of it, it's going to be awesome.:jmp:
Mmm....I'll probably be needing a new computer for it though...
On other notes, what about TR 1-5 was it that people find higher than CD games?
I personally feel that I can only compare AOD to legend and Anni because the engine was so limited in the first games...flipmaps to flood a room for example.
In AOD the legend was much more highly evolved, unfortunately with its bugs and awful combat system, and Legend was even better yet...exept for being incredulously short and simple.
But what made such a simple set of games so much better?
kryptonite23
05-02-08, 08:31
I am a core fan but I will not give up :)
For myself...I think I shall just have to accept the changeovers. NOTHING will stop me from being a part of tomb raider.
Even if the thing you're a part of is TR NO MORE? :mis:
Very few individuals who dislike the route that CD has chosen for the game qualify as "CORE fans". It is an inaccurate conclusion that you have drawn, that simply because one is not enamored with CD's renditions that they are automatically labeled CORE fans.
Pin-pointed :tmb:
As for myself, I'll stick to Classics then and pray for some custom Classics-oriented game or find time to make myself :)
On other notes, what about TR 1-5 was it that people find higher than CD games?
I personally feel that I can only compare AOD to legend and Anni because the engine was so limited in the first games...flipmaps to flood a room for example.
But what made such a simple set of games so much better?
You know... People buy games not only for engine :p
Simply... ATTITUDE! (In other words: Lara IS NOT Barbie). Over...
I don't really care if Core or CD is handling the games, as long as they are playable, I only love TR because it's TR & of Lara....I'll whine if the game sucks, but that won't stop me from buying the next TR game :tmb: :wve:
now let me put it in the way i think about it:
CD have one year to do what core had two years, then three, which is create the greatest TR ever.
so i can't judge now i'll have to wait and see.
It's the little barbs like that one thrown out that raise my hackles. But it only shows how uninformed people are. Games 1 through 5 Core never had the luxury of a year to work on a single game. Why do you think they were getting so burnt out? Their schedule and the pressure on them was ridiculous, and they had a crew of about 5 people to boot.
An objective study of Angel of Darkness shows that because of excessive oversight/interference, they ended up only having an actual 3 months to work on the game proper. FACTS.
now let me put it in the way i think about it:
CD have one year to do what core had two years, then three, which is create the greatest TR ever.
Sorry, but totally wrong... as stated above.
I'm slightly philosphical over the whole issue, there is certainly more to this than just the games themselves. I think more than a few veteran raiders look back on the older games through rose-tinted glasses, resenting changes and deviation while exonerating the older games, excusing flaws that would be spotlighted if they appeared in a CD game.
I can certainly understand this, its easy to see parallels with the split Star Wars fans arguing over Jar-Jar or Han shooting first or whatever.
I doubt the TR fans will ever be truly united behind a new game however, to my mind the 'old lara' was too blurry an image for people to unite behind 'in depth'. If you just look at the games themselves we really dont get to know her in any real sense. Its a good way to draw people to a charachter as it allows people to interpret lara to their own satisfaction - critics blankly label her as a walking male fantasy while fans promote the image of her as strong-willed and driven. Either way, she never really said much and it was left to out-of-game content and the players themselves to fill in more of the blanks.
But as we saw with AOD and now Legend onwards, people become more divided as the storytellers behind the Lady are able to create a tale or develop charachter in a much more detailed way, and as the blur comes into focus people dont always like what they see.
When pushed for a quick answer TR2 is listed as my favourity game of all time, but I tend to find my tastes are very progressive. I cant help but marvel at new, shiny progress. I watched Star Wars as a kid, but I cant help but prefer the new films, its a similar story with Tomb Raider, Red Dwarf and Zeus-knows how many other francises split by classic-vs-modern fans.
I just hope people are able to respect the tastes of others regardless of how this new games turns out. :)
*With tongue firmly in cheek* of course the simple option would have been to include the options to shoot Kurtis and/or throw the headset over a cliff...
now let me put it in the way i think about it:
CD have one year to do what core had two years, then three, which is create the greatest TR ever.
so i can't judge now i'll have to wait and see.
Oh, brainstorm! Good point, genius. Except, Tomb Raider I was designed by six people. SIX. Compare that to the staff that Crystal Dynamics has working on the game right now. See where this is going?
Tthe Spirit
05-02-08, 14:46
I am a core fan and i like classics very very much.
ut i really feel the new |TR are better...
more fun and more enjoyable during gameplay.
Just some much more difficult puzzles is enogh o make the game superlative :D :D
Core fans,or Core Cultists will never fall to the Dark Side!Or should I say Pink Side!:D:p
Join the Pink Side!We have cookies!:mis:
My opinion is that only some of them will give up,but only if TRU will be an amazing game,and not just an amazing TR game.:)
What am I supposed to be giving up? Loving the classic games?
I've got news for you. I won't. Just like I've been in love with one man for 26 years now.
He doesn't looks as hot now as he did back then, but I still love him just as much, if not more. Sure I've seen "shiny new models" but they don't tempt me because I know how great the experience has been over all these years with the guy who I originally fell for.
When I play the classic games, I *never* think, darn I wish this game was made by Crystal, it would look so much better.
And I never look at my husband who I've loved since he had the best head of hair in the hemisphere, and think damn I wish I had a guy with more hair. You know what I mean. When you fall for something that is GREAT, you don't abandon it because it becomes a classic. Unless you're really shallow.
Personally at this point i feel as though if its not about what company was better than who. I think we just want a developer who can make a good game that answers all the prblems the series has had over the years. I dont care who des it whether it be Core, Rebellion, Crystal Dynamics or even Ubisoft, somene just has to get the job done.
I am having trouble accepting CD's TR's. They are no where as challenging or immense as core's games were. Looks mean nothing to me if the game is too simple and that's what CD's TR's feel like so far, way too simple. :ohn: Will I quit them? Hard to say, depends on how bad CD disappoints me... :whi:
Looks mean nothing to me if the game is too simple
That's what I was trying to get across, poorly I s'pose. I want to recapture the magic.
To do that I only need to pop in a classic game. Only problem is, I've played all those.
I guess it's time to start playing LE versions.
But all I have to do to recapture the magic of discovery with my classic husband is go out on a date. I'm still hoping I'll get a good date out of CD.
I'm not a Core fan or a CD fan.
I'm a TR fan.;)
Eddie Haskell
05-02-08, 18:19
I'm not a Core fan or a CD fan.
I'm a TR fan.;)
You could have fooled me...;)
littlepenguin
05-02-08, 18:20
Core fans,or Core Cultists will never fall to the Dark Side!Or should I say Pink Side!:D:p
Join the Pink Side!We have cookies!:mis:
*snoring*
mmmm.... COOKIES! :eek: did someone say cookies :pi:
suspicious looking lot aren't you :pi:
if there are any, i'm very tempted :mis:
it's PINK! even better :yah:
yes, i am converted. though unfortunately some never will, :rolleyes: how can you pass up the colour pink and cookies!! its just madness
seriously, CD are a good change. when i first heard the franchise was moving, from Core to CD, i was concerned as it could have gone either way. that said it can still go 'bottoms up' for CD! i am optimistic about tru not matter what anyone says to me :ton:
CD's tr games are as good as the old school classics, we will never forget Core they made tr and CD will continue the legacy. Core won't get the tr franchise back, so we should accept CD or stop playing TR.
what happens if Eidos move it again, will 'we' (generalisation) do this again?
I'm not a Core fan or a CD fan.
I'm a TR fan.;)
Oh give me a break. We're all TR fans here it just so happens that some TR fans can't help but enjoy Core's TRs more than CDs and vice versa.
Because of this there are divisions, therefore debate occurs on these forums.
Oh give me a break. We're all TR fans here it just so happens that some TR fans can't help but enjoy Core's TRs more than CDs and vice versa.
Because of this there are divisions, therefore debate occurs on these forums.
I accept peoples opinions.
But for me Tomb Raider is Tomb Raider. It doesn't matter who makes them. I will always enjoy them.
Same here and I more than the average person realises that a name means nothing. Zilch. I too have no issue about who makes, my issue is in how its made and more importantly whether I happen to like it totally regardless of any influence.
I like CD's games! :D (Note how I said games, not TR games, because none of CD's "TR" games have impressed me yet. Yet.) I'll accept the changes, but I'm almost affirmative I'll always love Core.
It's the little barbs like that one thrown out that raise my hackles. But it only shows how uninformed people are. Games 1 through 5 Core never had the luxury of a year to work on a single game. Why do you think they were getting so burnt out? Their schedule and the pressure on them was ridiculous, and they had a crew of about 5 people to boot.
An objective study of Angel of Darkness shows that because of excessive oversight/interference, they ended up only having an actual 3 months to work on the game proper. FACTS.I didn't know this as fact but I can believe it. Even a cursory glance at what Core were up against shows they didn't have ANYTHING LIKE the resources they needed OR the resources Crystal have had since.
I get fed up of all the little digs that go Core's way too, especially that one about how they wrecked the franchise.
Which change are we really talking about here? The change of the studio or the change of the game type? I have accepted the change of the studio (even though I would really love to see them make a TR game or a spin off someday), but I have not accepted the change for the more hollywood like games. TRU seems different though. More mature, darker and more like an TR game.
Third time's the charm.
And I personally hate how Core fans are not supposed to say anything bad about CD, but the ones who oppose the criticism are bashing Core.
People seem to forget, core CREATED, INVENTED the series... :ohn:
GodOfLight
05-02-08, 18:47
i as a Core fan will never give up simply because CD trashed and changed Lara's original bio. If they would now go and trash and change the lame new bio they created for Lara, then i would forgive them :D but of course, they wont do that i think.
If they really wanted to go back to the roots after the AOD-let-down they would have taken us back to sorting out the TR4 Egypt story ;)
Eddie Haskell
05-02-08, 19:15
People seem to forget, core CREATED, INVENTED the series... :ohn:
After a reading and digesting all of the comments since I have been here I see this issue as such:
1) There are those few who like everything (yes, everything) about the old games. These individuals find it almost impossible to accept CD's renditions simply because things were changed; AoD's direction was not followed, Lara was transformed, the controls and camera were altered, moves and movements were copied from other games, the game was "Hollywoodized", and for a handful of other reasons. These gamers are bitter and upset, and shout out and take relish in all flaws (in their eyes) that CD's game bring forth. Certainly some of these people can be swayed by important changes that swing back towards the old games. But many will never be satisfied and will fight to the bitter end for the old ways. These are the so-called CORE fans. they most likely will not buy the new game, but may for the fact of simply "owning all of the games".
2) There are also individuals who can accept many of the changes but find one or two that are unacceptable and therefore compromise the entire game. They pine for a return of a particular aspect of the game, whether that is her personality, looks, actions (movements), story, etc. These players will most likely purchase the game, but will still protest mightily against the altered attribute that they dislike in the new game on this forum and elsewhere.
3) There are also gamers who are ambivalent to all of this drama. They may have positions on these controversial issues, but love Lara and the concept of the game and will buy irregardless of anything.
4) There are those who did not like many aspects of the old games. These players may have had trouble with the old controls, or they might not like the direction and changes that AoD brought, or a number of other reasons. The players who "endured" the old games find that CD's games are better suited to their playing style, or simply prefer the way that CD has "improved" the game (on whatever level). But many of these players (if not most) see the value in the old games and show respect to those aspects that they liked. And utter disdain for those that they do not.
5) There are players who love everything that CD has done to the game and Lara. For the fans who played the old games (at least one of them), they find this new version infinitely better on all counts. For those who are new to the series and have played only CD's versions they do not know any better. Some of the former group go out of their way to bad mouth the old games at every opportunity. I'm sure that most of them perceive the criticisms of the new games from the "old schoolers" as highly negative and that they can possibly sabotage (alter) the new games when someone from CD or EIDOS reads them. So they fight fire with fire, although sometimes they use napalm when a lighted match will do.
I should also mention that there are subcategories as well. But I haven't the time or the patience to type any more. Where do you fit in? :)
littlepenguin
05-02-08, 19:32
good points Eddie :tmb: at first read, i'm a #3
I'm starting to think I'm a mild no.1 so I think that everything has something slightly wrong with it compared to the old 'uns but it can be easily remedied so that I become far more appreciative of it. So I'm a blur between no.1 and 2 I guess.
FTR I hate labels though. I am who I am and if I don't happen to like the newer games there's nothing I can do about but hope I like the ones that come in the future. Simple as that.
Nice post Eddie. It's either 1 or 2 for me, but I can't say for sure. I will buy the game though.
I'm a 1 or 2 I think... :P
I'm a huge fan from the old games and have played every TR game to date. I really liked the classic games, but change is inevitable in the gaming industry and this will always upset some people. I enjoy playing the new games, and think they're good for next-gen games, but I never experienced the same thrill as with the classics. We'll just have to except that things are not gonna change back to the old way anytime soon, although I'd really like know what the core version of TRA would've been like. If you enjoy the classic games that much, do like me and play them again and again on your PC, PSone or PSP or whatever. If you're a programmer, there are other possibilities as well, but I can't tell you anything more about that.............yet:)
Im a person who is between numbers 2-4
Nice post Eddie. It's either 1 or 2 for me, but I can't say for sure. I will buy the game though.
You managed to sum my rambling nicely! :tmb:
(Your avatar is hot btw. :p)
You managed to sum my rambling nicely! :tmb:
(Your avatar is hot btw. :p)I like to keep it simple and clean. Though I hate one liner/one sentence replies. :o It's hard to say why I really love Core so much.. perhaps the games TR - TRIV (TRC was too short and AoD had it's flaws) were just perfect. The atmosphere, the level design, the characters, the story.. there are just way too many factors and I can't say that I'm that impressed by Crystal yet. They did do an wonderful job with St. Francis Folly though, so they have done something right!
And thank you. :D
Sometimes its the best way.
And again you hit the nail on the head on two accounts. Firstly, in regards the more overall critcism of Crystal rather than any one thing being severely lacking (maybe more obviously lacking but not necessarily severely lacking) is something I can totally identify with. Then with St. Francis' Folly I felt more in line with #2 because the only gripes I then had were with some small things like flimsiness of control and that's something I can live with if TRU emulates that level and manages to recapture why I liked it.
Luka_Aveiro
05-02-08, 21:33
I think it´s very clear why Core had to go and why CD had to come in. It would be so difficult to tell a dev team that makes great games for years to make a selling game than to tell a fresh team to make a selling game.
The whole thing is, TR games are now made with one thing on purpose: cash.
I have realized that there are "fashion" games, games that you must have or else you are not on vogue; these games are major franchises like PES, FIFA, Need For Speed, CallofDuty, AoE, and TR is one of them. So, the trick is to go for the wider audience as possible.
The classics were intended to be Art, and thats what they were. The new ones are entertaining games. And they do it quite well.
I believe it's like drinking a very good whine vs drinking a nice flavoured juice.
BTW, according to Eddie´s "labeling" i believe i'm a 2 :)
littlepenguin
05-02-08, 21:54
i think its like Cadburys vs Galaxy
Eddie Haskell
05-02-08, 22:13
I think it´s very clear why Core had to go and why CD had to come in. It would be so difficult to tell a dev team that makes great games for years to make a selling game than to tell a fresh team to make a selling game.
The whole thing is, TR games are now made with one thing on purpose: cash.
I have realized that there are "fashion" games, games that you must have or else you are not on vogue; these games are major franchises like PES, FIFA, Need For Speed, CallofDuty, AoE, and TR is one of them. So, the trick is to go for the wider audience as possible.
The classics were intended to be Art, and thats what they were. The new ones are entertaining games. And they do it quite well.
I believe it's like drinking a very good whine vs drinking a nice flavoured juice.
BTW, according to Eddie´s "labeling" i believe i'm a 2 :)
Although I do not entirely agree with your assessment (money vs art), I will post this for your perusal, right from the manual included in a superb game that I am replaying right now:
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii298/eddie-haskell/arxfatalisword.jpg
Good summary, Eddie. I'm #3 definitely!
BASEnutter
05-02-08, 22:14
i think its like Cadburys vs Galaxy
no, no no no, dont even start that one. Its tesco value chocolate all the way! With biscuits in is even better :tmb:
littlepenguin
05-02-08, 22:17
Although I do not entirely agree with your assessment (money vs art), I will post this for your perusal, right from the manual included in a superb game that I am replaying right now:
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii298/eddie-haskell/arxfatalisword.jpg
good point to make something well you must have passion for what you do
no, no no no, dont even start that one. Its tesco value chocolate all the way! With biscuits in is even better :tmb:
:ohn: sainbury's organic!!!
Edit: or do you want to fight with biscuits? :mis:
Luka_Aveiro
05-02-08, 22:21
good point to make something well you must have passion for what you do
Don't know if Eddie was meaning he considers passion a fundamental aspect to be part of making a game, but it's quite the fundamental of making art.
Eddie Haskell
05-02-08, 22:23
Don't know if Eddie was meaning he considers passion a fundamental aspect to be part of making a game, but it's quite the base of making art.
Both. If your goal is simply to make the most money, than your passion is all into that. An artist who simply paints for profit ought to simply paint houses.
I'm somewhere between 1 and 2.
littlepenguin
05-02-08, 22:28
a game is never made for one or the other it is made for both. though getting the balance right for your target audience can be very hard
Both. If your goal is simply to make the most money, than your passion is all into that. An artist who simply paints for profit ought to simply paint houses.
very true eddie,
art that has no passion, is a blank canvas
Luka_Aveiro
05-02-08, 22:33
Both. If your goal is simply to make the most money, than your passion is all into that. An artist who simply paints for profit ought to simply paint houses.
IMHO, if the classics are Art, they HAD to be done with passion (seems to me they were).
The new ones are ok for gaming, but i believe that's it.
Eddie Haskell
05-02-08, 22:37
IMHO, if the classics are Art, they HAD to be done with passion (seems to me they were).
The new ones are ok for gaming, but i believe that's it.
I think initially the classics were (no doubt about that), but when a corporation sees a cash cow they milk it like there's no tomorrow. So the seeking of ever increasing profits can have an effect, and many times severely and negatively alter the product and bring forth the wrath of it's buyers.
littlepenguin
05-02-08, 22:41
passion is pride/love for your work. if you don't love your art work or what you do, then you won't do it.
without 'passion' trl won't have been made. CD i'm sure take pride in their work, therefore have used both art and money to create it. without any of the artists working within any games developer you would not get a single game. well you might but no-one would buy them.
at the end of the day they are a business and to sell, they must include both, it just depends upon how much.
Luka_Aveiro
05-02-08, 23:12
I think initially the classics were (no doubt about that), but when a corporation sees a cash cow they milk it like there's no tomorrow. So the seeking of ever increasing profits can have an effect, and many times severely and negatively alter the product and bring forth the wrath of it's buyers.
I believe that happened as soon as great part of the fans started playing AOD.
passion is pride/love for your work. if you don't love your art work or what you do, then you won't do it.
without 'passion' trl won't have been made. CD i'm sure take pride in their work, therefore have used both art and money to create it. without any of the artists working within any games developer you would not get a single game. well you might but no-one would buy them.
at the end of the day they are a business and to sell, they must include both, it just depends upon how much.
TBH, Anniversary gave me hope CD could really make a TR game worth of being comparable to any of the classics, I don't know if Underworld is that game (hope it is).
I believe they can pull something magnificent off. I hope they believe it to.
littlepenguin
05-02-08, 23:29
i'm hoping too. but thats what most of us are doing.
I have to say i think the whole 'cash-cow' influence started way, way before AOD. TR was never slated within the industry as a being a premier game during development, it was a suprise success. Now I can understand the dev-team retaining enthusiasm up to a point but Eidos clearly wanted to capitalize on the success of TR immediately. Thats how the decline started - trying to put out a game a year to keep profits up, rather than worrying about artistic/creative progress.
I dont begrudge it, I do like the old games but the series might have enjoyed more artistic prestige if they had take the Valve/Half-life approach. As TR fans we might like all the old games, but theres no denying that the franchise was getting stale in the eyes of the vast majority of gamers and reviewers out there who, while they may enjoy a good raid, arent 'fans' to any extent.
Thats where CD really earns my respect, it might not be classic TR but at least it is TR. Better that than obscurity in my eyes.
I am a Core fan, but I have already accepted the change Tomb Raider has gone through with Crystal Dynamics. Legend was already enough to please me. Haven't gone onto Anniversary yet, but Underworld looks promising enough. I do hope they are taking account of what the fans are asking for, though.
TrKing_Rulz
06-02-08, 18:11
Core made a great game, I played, CD made a great game, I played.
IT'S THE THOUGHT THAT COUNTS! :vlol:
IT'S THE THOUGHT THAT COUNTS! :vlol:
Not really, if you don't cough up the goods and get it right, the thought means nothing but an idle promise someone tried and failed, miserably at that! :ohn:
I enjoy Core and CD probably just as much...with the exception of TR4, I loved all of the games, even AOD...each has its own personality, and once again, besides 4, none of the games have been a disappointment to me.
Luka_Aveiro
07-02-08, 02:03
I enjoy Core and CD probably just as much...with the exception of TR4, I loved all of the games, even AOD...each has its own personality, and once again, besides 4, none of the games have been a disappointment to me.
TR4 was a disappointment to you??? It was the best TR for me. :ton:
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