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Angeldice
02-09-03, 22:56
OH NO...DONT PANIC EVERYONE. Well if any of you have AOL on the news page it has an article about an asteriod (3rd the size of the one that killed the dinosaurs) could hit earth at year 2014. This is too soon. This asteriod is powerful enough to wipe out an entire contenent. OMG! But there is a SLIM chance the it will hit so it says and its travellin at 20 miles per second. Has anyone seen it yet. I bet this is like last weeks news.

TRChik
02-09-03, 23:03
thats old news. its most likely not going to hit.

i heard that about 7 months ago.

gonga
02-09-03, 23:38
As time goes on we'll be able to better resolve its trajectory. Odds of significant impacts are very low, but we need to map these things. One reason is that if an asteroid that hasn't been mapped approaches from the direction of the Sun we'll never see it coming at all.

Melonie Tomb Raider
02-09-03, 23:45
We'll be ok, God's protecting us. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Oh, and I disagree with the asteroid killing the Dinosaur stuff. But that's my oppinion, and I totally think it's ok if you disagree. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

gonga
02-09-03, 23:55
We now have verified evidence (verified in science-speak means confirmed by every scientist who's done significant investigation of it) that a major asteroid impact ocurred at Chicxulub, Mexico at the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary (65,000,000 ybp - exactly when they became extinct). The only thing being debated anymore by experts is whether the impact was sufficient in itself to cause the second-largest extinction event in Earth history (second only to the Permian-Triassic event).

neil4768
03-09-03, 00:00
Evening Gonga what is the Permian-Triassic event only can find that it happened 350 milion years ago was it another comet strike?

neil4768
03-09-03, 00:02
sorry typo 250 million years ago

croft28
03-09-03, 00:45
Isnt it a scientific fact that an asterioid killed the Dino's?

Melonie Tomb Raider
03-09-03, 02:48
no it's not a fact, they have no proof. I believe that the flood killed them. People are finding fish foscils on top of mountains and stuff, there is no other explanation for that. How else would fish have been able to get on mountains like that? The flood, that's the explanation. Like I said before, it's ok if you disagree and I don't wanna argue. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Draco
03-09-03, 03:06
Wasn't the flood that Permian-Triassic event?

Steven B
03-09-03, 07:41
I hope it doesn't hit Earth! :eek:

BunnyGirl
03-09-03, 07:50
I've heard on the news channel, that it's going to reach us on March 21st 2014. But isn't it a little too soon to give an exact date like that?

gonga
03-09-03, 10:08
Originally posted by neil4768:
Evening Gonga what is the Permian-Triassic event only can find that it happened 350 milion years ago was it another comet strike?The Permian-Triassic event, which is also the boundary between the Paleozoic and Mesozoic Eras, was the largest extinction event in Earth history. Keep in mind though that during early Earth history, the inner planets were being constantly bombarded by asteroids and especially planetary fragments, so the upper 1/3 or so of the ocean was being continually vaporized. That is why deep sea vents are the subject of so much attention these days - they were the only place protected by early Earth conditions. But I digress...

To the best of my knowledge, it is not known what caused the P-T extinction, because there just isn't much evidence. However, unlike the K-T event, the P-T event wiped out a large majority of Earth species (all were marine except very primitive land plants). However, the calamitous nature of the extinction suggests impact.

The K-T event, in contrast, is represented by lots of evidence. The crater itself (it dates precisely to K-T, its structure indicates the impact came from the south and spread ejecta over N. America), the iridium layer (a layer of a rare, meteor-impact-dust element which is found everywhere on Earth precisely at the KT boundary), the balls of volcanic glass which are found only at the KT boundary and cover all of N. America at that layer, the global nature of the event, etc.

The highest mountain on Earth, Mt. Everest, at 5 miles high, is constructed of marine fossill-bearing rock. Fossils do not simply rest on its top...they reside within the entire mountain. It is a very simple and clear example of uplift of a marine sedimentary rock. When you look at the geology of the Himalaya region as a whole, all the evidences (seds, accretion, metamorphism, thrust faulting, etc.), which would take many lifetimes for an individual to investigate, tell a tale of the collision of continental plates. Since no sea floor was involved (unusual - this was a continent-continent collision), no subduction occured, and so the only place the rock had to go was...up!

The hypothesis of an Earth-wide flood is not supported by geological evidence. From an empirical standpoint, global flooding is an absurd hypothesis, since there has never been anywhere near enough water for it to occur. If all the glacial ice were to melt, sea level would rise less than 100 meters. At no time in the past 2 billion years would the continents have been entirely below sea-level. In fact, we have lots of evidence of continual erosion (erosion happens above sea level where gravity moves water) throughout Earth history.

People have a right to their beliefs. I have no desire or right to deny them. However, it is my philosophy that religious belief and empirical observation are not mutually exclusive! In fact, it is essential to psychological health to reconcile our beliefs with our observations of reality. Our belief systems should dovetail with our study of Nature - God's creation. We need to focus on where our belief systems agree with our observations. That is a positive step toward understanding! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Draco
03-09-03, 10:18
Hehe, like the flood thing...

It may have happened, but a bunch of animals and humans on a boat aren't going to see every nautical mile of the surface in 80 days...

And then there is the whole space for all the animals twp by two thing. About the only part that makes sense of that is the heavy inbreeding of Cheetas...hehe

NatEcho
03-09-03, 10:49
Seems like there's alot of knowledge behind all these screenies, huh?! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Nice to know you're surrounded be intellegent people! :D

DragonDan
03-09-03, 16:14
We humans were seeded by space aliens long ago, and our other-worldly friends will take us all home in their big space cruisers if that asteroid impact is imminent.

Angeldice
03-09-03, 19:52
The chances are 1 to 909,000

Stephen Trent
03-09-03, 20:32
Originally posted by DragonDan:
We humans were seeded by space aliens long ago, and our other-worldly friends will take us all home in their big space cruisers if that asteroid impact is imminent.lol i hope so http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

fishlikelong
03-09-03, 20:42
I hope It doesn't hit. I am really scared now. If it is on a collision course with earth I hope they do something to stop it, a bit like in armogeddon but obviously that is a film so it may not work. I heard that there is more chance of that rock hitting earth than winning the lottery.

Draco
03-09-03, 20:44
Originally posted by fishlikelong:
I hope It doesn't hit. I am really scared now. If it is on a collision course with earth I hope they do something to stop it, a bit like in armogeddon but obviously that is a film so it may not work. I heard that there is more chance of that rock hitting earth than winning the lottery.I'll make you a deal, if that rock hits this planet, I'll play every jackpot over a million USD net and dispense it to the members of this forum...

gonga
03-09-03, 20:45
Originally posted by DragonDan:
We humans were seeded by space aliens long ago, and our other-worldly friends will take us all home in their big space cruisers if that asteroid impact is imminent.Perhaps the greatest astronomer of our time, Carl Sagan, was a proponent of "panspermia," or the hypothesis that life came from "seeds" brought by meteors. This is an area of great study and debate. There is no question that meteors often contain organic compounds, and these compounds have been found deep within the rock, so they were not picked up in the atmosphere. Also, very curious formations have been found within the rocks, which appear to be fossils. The photos are very convincing! However, it is not agreed whether these formations really are fossils.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1070000/images/_1070229_mars300a.jpg

gonga
03-09-03, 20:54
Originally posted by fishlikelong:
I hope It doesn't hit. I am really scared now. If it is on a collision course with earth I hope they do something to stop it, a bit like in armogeddon but obviously that is a film so it may not work. I heard that there is more chance of that rock hitting earth than winning the lottery.Firstly, keep in mind that the last extinction-causing impact was 65,000,000 years ago! Early mammals were cowering under logs to stay out of the way of the reptiles! These events are now very rare. Natural selection operates on a universal scale - planets that were "just right" in terms of size, location and orbital eccentricity have survived, others didn't. The longer time goes on, the fewer impacts occur, because likely impacts have largely already played out.

I didn't see the movie, but blowing them to bits is not generally considered a good idea. According to experts I have read, landing a vehicle and thrusting the asteroid slightly off course, if done early, could easily change the orbital trajectory dramatically. We've already landed probes on asteroids (college students did it).

Draco
03-09-03, 20:54
Originally posted by gonga:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DragonDan:
We humans were seeded by space aliens long ago, and our other-worldly friends will take us all home in their big space cruisers if that asteroid impact is imminent.Perhaps the greatest astronomer of our time, Carl Sagan, was a proponent of "panspermia," or the hypothesis that life came from "seeds" brought by meteors. This is an area of great study and debate. There is no question that meteors often contain organic compounds, and these compounds have been found deep within the rock, so they were not picked up in the atmosphere. Also, very curious formations have been found within the rocks, which appear to be fossils. The photos are very convincing! However, it is not agreed whether these formations really are fossils.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1070000/images/_1070229_mars300a.jpg</font>[/QUOTE]I theorized not long ago that the Atlantians were colonists from another world. Now how they connect to the Mayans I know not. For all I know, they are one and the same...

Stephen Trent
03-09-03, 20:58
Originally posted by Draco:

qb]I'll make you a deal, if that rock hits this planet, I'll play every jackpot over a million USD net and dispense it to the members of this forum...[/QB][/QUOTE]

i hope thats not an empty promise :D

fishlikelong
03-09-03, 20:59
You said it's rare and i know it's rare but it can still happen.

Draco
03-09-03, 21:01
Originally posted by Stephen Trent:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:

qb]I'll make you a deal, if that rock hits this planet, I'll play every jackpot over a million USD net and dispense it to the members of this forum...</font>[/QUOTE]i hope thats not an empty promise :D [/QB][/QUOTE]

Me too, cuz a hole in the planet will hurt my long term plans...

Stephen Trent
03-09-03, 21:01
ill never try to quote again :(

Simraider
03-09-03, 21:02
its not goin 2 happen.

they r just tryin 2 scare ppl. hey mayb its bush's xcuse 4 repealin all the environment laws 'cos there wont b an environment in 10 yrs time! just as mad as any other of his reasons!

Draco
03-09-03, 21:05
Originally posted by Simraider:
its not goin 2 happen.

they r just tryin 2 scare ppl. hey mayb its bush's xcuse 4 repealin all the environment laws 'cos there wont b an environment in 10 yrs time! just as mad as any other of his reasons!Actually, this was news before Bushy was President...

Some time in 1998 I think...I'll have to check...

John Falstaff
03-09-03, 21:08
Hi all,

Well if it hits it hits. If there's a man (or woman) with a plan that's different. But otherwise (shrugs).

Gonga, your post reminds me of what anthropologists call 'secondary elaboration' or what I prefer to call (with regard to cosmology) 'displacement explanation'. We can't explain life on earth, so we place its origin elsewhere. Why should we be able to explain it?

I am not worried about an imponderable past which - whatever the truth about it - we cannot alter. The future - except for low probability events - is in OUR hands. It is up to us to make the future. Human ability to louse up the future, to me, is far more probable:relevant than any asteroid hit.

P.S. Don't forget the black helicopters that may be coming!

;)

Draco
03-09-03, 21:11
Fight the Future

Stephen Trent
03-09-03, 21:16
Originally posted by Draco:
Fight the FutureTo much X files for u mate :D

gonga
03-09-03, 21:27
Originally posted by John Falstaff:
Hi all,

Well if it hits it hits. If there's a man (or woman) with a plan that's different. But otherwise (shrugs).

Gonga, your post reminds me of what anthropologists call 'secondary elaboration' or what I prefer to call (with regard to cosmology) 'displacement explanation'. We can't explain life on earth, so we place its origin elsewhere. Why should we be able to explain it?

I am not worried about an imponderable past which - whatever the truth about it - we cannot alter. The future - except for low probability events - is in OUR hands. It is up to us to make the future. Human ability to louse up the future, to me, is far more probable:relevant than any asteroid hit.

P.S. Don't forget the black helicopters that may be coming!

;)

gonga
03-09-03, 21:37
Sorry about the above inadvertent post!

John, I was only referring to Carl Sagan's research, but I can assure you he was not grabbing at straws. He was considered by many to be the most important astronomer of his time, for many reasons. There are a LOT of astronomers who continue to research his hypothesis because it could very easily be correct. In any event, I hope that people find his ideas interesting.

On your second point, I am simply in agreement! However, there is in fact much to study with regard to early Earth history, and I think it is not as imponderable as many probably think... ;)

By the way, the photograph is of a Martian meteor.

gonga
03-09-03, 21:50
I must mention that there are many areas of study regarding the origin of life. Perhaps the most exciting area now is the deep sea vents. Four billion years ago, Earth was being regularly scorched and vaporized. The only place where life could survive (and we have fossils of single-cell organisms dating back that far) was the deep sea vents, where life was independent of solar energy and fed on Earth's heat. These vents contain a virtually infinite range of temperature zones and every imaginable mineral and organic ingredient. They are factories of life. And we now know with a high degree of certainty that they harbor Earth's oldest genetic strains. That's one reason why so much attention is being paid there. They are the biological news stories of the future. Just as we can glimpse the early Universe in a telescope, someday we may be able to glimpse life's beginnings in a microscope.

John Falstaff
03-09-03, 22:15
Hi Gonga,

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Carl Sagan? I've known serious, and critical, students of Astronomy, from this side or the herring pond, vitually spit at his name! I'm not that bothered myself. I can see nothing wrong with research or speculation (if one could divorce the two) about the origin of the universe, life, humans etc:.

But I do wonder how much the 'big' cosmological questions just serve to distract us from the (vicious?) reality that is going on now, and the prospect of a better world?

The only real issue I have with your post is that you seem to say that the imponderable, about the past, is not so. ie: that a final truth about it can be revealed/discovered. I am sceptical. All cultures/ societies have had explanations as to the nature of the world. But historically, the questions, and assumptions have changed. In western society we have seen a shift from the axiomatic belief in God, and attendent spirits, as explanations to an axiomatic belief in 'science', atomic and sub atomic particles etc:. In the end of the day these explanatory elements are all transcendential entities. I have little doubt that in five hundred years time our notions of explanation shall be deemed risable and primative. 'Western' perceptions of the truth are themselves, I would suggest,are also contingent and transientory.

I do not mean to offend, but I have srong practical reasons for arguing as I do.

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

gonga
03-09-03, 22:31
No offense John...I tend to agree with most of your gist. Perhaps the SETI project and other Sagan legacies are more positively viewed here in the "far west."

Science is not concerned with truth. There is no proof. Science really is one gigantic process of elimination, ever ammassing a greater view of Nature. Nothing is absolute, everything, even observations, are questioned. That is not speculation, which is not based on evidence (Aristotle would roll over in his grave with Plato laughing); neither is science a belief system, although anything can be made one. It is simply the methods of investigation and validation. Science is a mere human endeavor! But yes, I do probably disagree in that I think there is much more to study, learn and understand about the past, and I do believe it all has important implications for the future.

I think my pet peeve, John, may be that I live in a scientifically illiterate society and I'm a science teacher! Anyway, it's a pleasure to chat with you and I thank you for reading. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

John Falstaff
03-09-03, 23:29
Gonga,

We can, of course, agree to disagree on this. No problem. You mention both Plato and Aristotle, but neither of their philosphies about 'nature' could be disassociated from their views on society. 'Man is a political animal'. but there have been many scientists, and epistemolgists since then!

The view that 'science' is but a system or method of investigation and validation is prosaic and does not match their (scientists) reality. The methods are not agreed. Most research 'scientists' that I have spoken to have stated that their 'results' have not derived from method but a mixture of accident and intuition. This does not mean that their results are 'wrong', only that they have been the result of contingency, not some sacred method. Nearly everyone I have spoken to 'admits' that the methodology is written up after the fact, it (method) is not the driving force in reality.

Even more important, IMHO, is the need to recognise the political economy of research. Funding gets given to those doing research that suit those giving the research money. Indeed in the UK, since 'Thatcher's' time we've seen that 'research has been commissioned to show X'. This still goes on.

A friend of mine, who believed much as you seem to, that 'science' is a neutral method, within six-months of starting his PhD , in Physiology, was so bitter about the 'real' nature of 'science'. He had to junk more than 50 percent of his research findings, because they were totally against current orthodoxy. To have published, or tried to, would have totally destroyed him as a researcher and a scientist.

Sorry to go on about this, but I'm willing 'in private' to explain my vehemence on this issue.

gonga
04-09-03, 00:51
No John, that won't be necessary! I understand those points and I agree. I too have an extensive backgroud as a life-long scientist and I can confirm the majority of your points! As I said, science being a human endeavor has all the faults of the scientists who practice it. Science involves many methods, often involving considerable ingenuity. But in my country's anti-intellectual and irrational culture, I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water!

John Falstaff
04-09-03, 01:24
OK Gonga,

I suppose I want to get some things off my chest. You don't deserve the earful I need to unleash. (I may well do it in public - in my own time.)

When you talk about an anti-intellectual, and an irrational culture, I can understand. Knee jerk reactions about evolution, political events and, can I say it, a pitiful understanding of the (foriegn) world. Yes, we must try and keep reason. If we abandon reason, and honesty, we are no longer serious. But remember,the Neo-right do not have a monopoly of power, or ideas. Many of us believe in the power of reason, logic and thought. We do not have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

gonga
04-09-03, 23:25
I love this forum! I can see that this topic strikes a personal chord with you, and so of course you have much to say. One thing that's tough about forums in general though, is it can take a frustrating while to begin to really understand another's point of view. I do prefer live interaction complete with facial expressions! I want you to know that I understand and agree with your points, the only difference I see is the resulting slant, and of course, it's my job to help kids discover Nature, which I love deeply, through science, so...

And now that we've had this discussion, let me just say that while I have had the direct benefit of a more positive experience, I also have witnessed first hand all those negative aspects you have expressed. They are very real and very important!

And now about those Beatles... ;)

John Falstaff
04-09-03, 23:36
Hi Gonga,

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

I must say I'd rather have a personal chord strike me, than an asteroid!

;)

gonga
05-09-03, 00:05
How about this one?
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/music2.gif

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 01:25
Well, I guess I am the only one here who believes in the flood huh? hehe. That's ok. I don't see why scientist make up all this junk if they don't have to, it's crazy.

Draco
05-09-03, 02:24
So you think all scientists do is make stuff up?

Why would they do that?

Rommie
05-09-03, 02:34
I don't think people would study for years on end for science degrees if it was all made up. ;)

Draco
05-09-03, 02:44
Originally posted by Rommie:
I don't think people would study for years on end for science degrees if it was all made up. ;) Hehe, what about theology degrees?

Rommie
05-09-03, 02:51
Originally posted by Draco:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rommie:
I don't think people would study for years on end for science degrees if it was all made up. ;) Hehe, what about theology degrees?</font>[/QUOTE]http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 03:23
Well, I think they made it up. They'd have to make it up unless it was in the Bible. They are just contradicting the Bible with all their false theories. But like I said before, it's my oppinion, doesn't have to be yours too. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif I am not being rude btw, just thought I'd explain how I felt,. I don't mind you saying how you feel, but as long as this doesn't turn into an argument. I don't wanna get banned for a week, and I don't want any of you to either. hehe. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Draco
05-09-03, 09:10
We can have a civil discussion as long as everyone keeps their heads...

I'm just trying to figure out how it is that a book only a few thousand years old can answer all the questions dating back millions and even billions of years...

Colin125
05-09-03, 09:22
Hey Everyone

Just watch Armageddon, that will make you feel better. :D

stevefox
05-09-03, 09:52
hi everyone
if this comet is travelling at 20 miles per second and won't get here for about 11 years then it's still 7 billion miles away...and i don't think you can say that it can hit a moving target at that sort of range....it's more likely that ELVIS will ride into town on SHERGAR !!!!!

Loki
05-09-03, 09:53
hehe,
maybe some nice artifact gets unearthed... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Kid Vicious
05-09-03, 10:48
LOL i saw this in a movie once.. there was this comet or zumthin.. and umm.. yea they shot zum rockets or ..zumthin ( http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif ) at it.. AND JUSTICE SERVED!! LOOOL
kID vICIOUS

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 13:56
I'm just trying to figure out how it is that a book only a few thousand years old can answer all the questions dating back millions and even billions of years... That's a very good question, and I can answer it too. The Bible says the world is only thousands of years old ( Not sure how many thousand), not millions. So if the Bible went along with the, " Our world is billions of years old" theory, then it would be contradicting itself when it talks about how God created every thing thousands of years ago and not billions. In my oppinion, this world is thousands of years old not billions. I'd sure like to see how earth would look if it were a billion years old. It wouldn't look that good, I can tell you that right now. Billions of years?! That's a LONG time to hold up this well. To me, the theory of our world being billions of years old sounds crazy and insubstancial http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif hehe. But, that's just my oppinion though. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Draco
05-09-03, 14:13
Actually, the bible says nothing on how long ago the universe was formed... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Stephen Trent
05-09-03, 14:15
Originally posted by Draco:
Actually, the bible says nothing on how long ago the universe was formed... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Doesnt it state that when god was making everything in Genisis he made the sky (which could mean the universe)

perhaps http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Draco
05-09-03, 14:17
Originally posted by Stephen Trent:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
Actually, the bible says nothing on how long ago the universe was formed... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Doesnt it state that when god was making everything in Genisis he made the sky (which could mean the universe)

perhaps http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Something like that, but not how long ago nor in what timeframe...

Capt. Murphy
05-09-03, 14:40
Actually it has been figured (going by the Bible) that the Earth is around 6,000 yrs old. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif It does have something to do with: God made the heavens and earth (and everything else) for 6 days and rested on the 7th. So it's almost like we're in getting up to the start of that 7,000th year. And remember - God rested on the 7th day. 7,000th year... Maybe Melonie can elaborate from here. ;) I'm just saying I agree that the earth isn't millions or billions of years old. As for an Asteroid hitting the earth... Who knows? Only time will tell.

I bet we agree on evolution too. :D But that's another topic. Another time maybe. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/sleepy.gif

Draco
05-09-03, 14:43
The Jewish religion is about 5000 years old...

We have civilizations that died before you say the universe was created...

robrt
05-09-03, 15:20
It's only another shot...
several of those big stones are in a near orbit, but we don't care about wich of them that could smash earth in 2030or in 2014 or whenever.

The big risk was not much time ago when an a big asteroid passed about 600,000 - 400,000 kilometers from earth and nobody saw it before...

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 15:25
Forum Raider
Member # 6176
posted 05. September 2003 15:40
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Actually it has been figured (going by the Bible) that the Earth is around 6,000 yrs old. It does have something to do with: God made the heavens and earth (and everything else) for 6 days and rested on the 7th. So it's almost like we're in getting up to the start of that 7,000th year. And remember - God rested on the 7th day. 7,000th year... Maybe Melonie can elaborate from here. I'm just saying I agree that the earth isn't millions or billions of years old
Yeah, I agree on that. And Draco, it says God created the heavens and the earth, which would mean the universe. And as far as that, " civilizations died before the universe was created" theory can't be true, because it would be impossible for that to happen before the world was created. Would you like to tell us which civilizations these are? And as far as my theory goes, we have found and are finding artifacts from the Bible times. If our world was billions of years old those artifacts would never have lasted this long. Not even close. I still have a lot more to study on this topic, so I should be able to explain more, but I'm only 16 and I have a lot more studying ahead of me. But I have learned about both theories. I learned about the one I agree with, which is in the Bible, and I also learned the theory I disagree with, which I learned in school. To me, the evolution theory is insubstantial. We are humans not apes, and we didn't come from apes. My question is this, if things evolved then, why aren't they evolving now? Scientist have yet to elaborate on that question. And to all of you who believe in evolution, I'm not trying to be rude or shove my oppinions down your throats, so please don't take it that way. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . I bet we agree on evolution too. But that's another topic. Another time maybe. Were you talking to me or some one else when you wrote that? I'm not sure, hehe. But if you were talking to me, then that's so cool! Not many people agree with me. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Trinity34
05-09-03, 15:32
Originally posted by Melonie Tomb Raider:
Well, I think they made it up. They'd have to make it up unless it was in the Bible. They are just contradicting the Bible with all their false theories.Melonie, have you ever heard of Theological Evolution? Its a combination of both ideals, God created man but then he evolved. And as far as God creating man, I think its more of man's spirit being in the "likeness of God" not man's actual physical appearance.

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 15:41
Well, I have mixed feelings on the fact of whether or not we were made like God in spirit or in body. I don't think we evolved though, I think we are the same was God made us, except maybe Adam and Eve didn't have belly buttons since they were just created and didn't need them for eating since they never were in a mother's womb. Other than the belly button thing, I think that humans did not evolve.

universaldave
05-09-03, 15:53
Artifacts from biblical times are not billions of years old, of course, that's why we're finding them so easily, but that doesn't mean the world isn't billions of years old. The bible never explicitely states any kind of time frame before the creation of Man so the age of the earth cannot be determined using the lineages listed in the bible or any other such information. Evolution follows the same path as the biblical creation story; ie. Man came last in the chain of events. Close study of the bible and the theory of Evolution reveals the very real possibility that they are not necessarily contradictory but can indeed support one another. I also agree that we contain the essence of God but not the appearance; God cannot be limited to one appearance/form!

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 16:50
God created man in only a matter of day(s) after He created the other stuff, not billions of years. When God created apes he did not call them man. God gave man charge over the animals, we are not animals.

Draco
05-09-03, 17:15
What about dinosaurs?

And dragons for that matter?

universaldave
05-09-03, 17:19
Originally posted by Melonie Tomb Raider:
God created man in only a matter of day(s) after He created the other stuff, not billions of years. When God created apes he did not call them man. God gave man charge over the animals, we are not animals.The bible cannot be taken literally with respect to every statement made in it. There are numerous contradictions in the text if you believe it to all be literal. Keep in mind the bible you're (and almost all of us are) reading has been translated and re-translated (and, yes, edited and re-edited) over the past couple thousand years. This affects our interpretation of it, unless we're reading from the original texts! This is an incontrivertable fact. With that in mind, the bible must be read with an open, but analytical mind.
Other ancient texts such as the dead sea scrolls, the apocrypha, and others I cannot remember the names of right now, help illuminate the meaning of the biblical text and place it into better context. By the way, no-one said Man and Apes are the same, or that Man is the same as the animals. Man is similar to animals (apes among them) but the differences are both obvious and subtle... Evolution is a theory that accounts for that, but no-where at all does Evolution deny the existence of a Creator, and neither do I! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 18:07
Well, as far as the Bible being translated a lot, it was not changed, just made easier to understand. What about dinosaurs?

And dragons for that matter? The Bible refers to an animal called the leviathon which I think was a dragon. Any way, they are extinkt. The flood did not kill all the dinosaurs because some were on the ark. SOme argue and say the ark was not big enough to hold dinosaurs, but the Bible tells the measurements of the ark, and it indeed was big enough to hold dinosaurs. But, after the flood was over and all the animals were released, the dinosaurse just died off. Just like Do Do birds. We didn't have abig asteroid killing them, just like we didn't have an asteroid killing the dinosaurs. They just died off in my oppinion. And there are still many animals we have not discovered I am sure. Like in the ocean, we can't look through the entire ocean, so we aren't gunna know every creature that lives there, so if we find something new that doesn't mean it's a newly "evolved" creature. It just means we haven't discovered it yet. ANd there are a lot of places that people haven't steped foot on, like some places in Canada. There are places in Canada people have never been because of the weather I assume. So it would be so cool to see it, what if there were some undiscovered creatures there or something? That is so fascinating to think about. haha.

universaldave
05-09-03, 18:22
Ever heard the expression "lost in the translation"? Truer words have never been spoken. Plus, it has been outright edited... there are different versions of the bible out right now, many of which have certain books that aren't in the others. Then there's the book of Mormon! There are no easy answers regarding religion, Melonie...
As for dinosaurs on the ark, I'll let someone else take that... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 18:26
I'm not mormon, I htink the book of mormon is false, in my oppinion. I am a Protistant Christian, and I believe in the Bible, and what it says is true whether you like it or not.

universaldave
05-09-03, 18:34
Hey, don't get all upset! I'm not mormon either (though I will not bash them--nor do they deny the text of the old or new testaments by the way), and I don't disbelieve in the bible by any means (where have I said that?). Many protestants like yourself would interpret things quite differently, so why become angry? Are we not all seeking further enlightenment through polite discussion? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 19:22
I think you misunderstood me, I'm not angry at all. I enjoy hearing other people oppinions. No hard feelings at all. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif

Capt. Murphy
05-09-03, 19:28
Wow! We have a very healthy discussion going on here. It's nice to see it hasn't gotten ugly (Like some other forum I know of). But anyway...

About the 6,000 year thing. It's supposed to be like this. Every 2,000 yrs a Big event is supposed to happen. From the creation to the flood is around 2K yrs, from the Flood to the Birth of Christ is another 2K yrs, And here we are already up to 2003. That's over 6,000 years. But now you have to ask the question; Is our calander correct? Who knows. Some would say that after 9-11 is the beginning of the "tribulation" as well as other things. Like a prophesy about the fall of Babylon (Iraq). But I think the trib. isn't here yet. It will be much much worse that anything we imagined. That is if (some of us) are still here. ;) But the key is to endure. At all costs. Even if Meteorites from space come crashing down. Sorry for "Preaching". And about evolution. I have a question. If evolution were true - which came first. The man or the woman? What about the simplest of life forms. Bacteria. These have stayed the same for ages. Yet how did they evolve? A micro-organism can't survive without even one of its few 'systems'. Like a tail. Now did a small tail evolve a body and the body evolve another system (i.e. Digestive.) Digestive is not an accurate word since it is more developed/complex than a simple bacteria's "system". But surely you see what I'm getting at.

I hope this 'Religious discussion' doesn't get this topic closed. :(

@Melonie: Yes, I was talking about you... Agreeing. You might want to research a guy called Carl Baugh. Perhaps you've heard of him. He's got some interesting theories on the history of the Earth, the flood, etc. Although some of his ideas seem way out there. But they're still neat. And -garnertedarmstrong.org- has some good booklets you can read about evolution. But some of the things he says - I don't agree with. But I would suggest you check it out. It's very interesting. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

universaldave
05-09-03, 19:33
Originally posted by Melonie Tomb Raider:
I think you misunderstood me, I'm not angry at all. I enjoy hearing other people oppinions. No hard feelings at all. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif That makes me feel great! I only seek to learn more all the time, and I've done a lot of reading (much more to do too)! I only hope to promote that kind of inquisitiveness in others too! I'm glad you don't harbor bad feelings towards me, 'cause I don't feel them towards you either! Gotta go for today... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-09-03, 19:41
ttyl dave http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif

About the 6,000 year thing. It's supposed to be like this. Every 2,000 yrs a Big event is supposed to happen. From the creation to the flood is around 2K yrs, from the Flood to the Birth of Christ is another 2K yrs, And here we are already up to 2003. That's over 6,000 years. But now you have to ask the question; Is our calander correct? Who knows. Some would say that after 9-11 is the beginning of the "tribulation" as well as other things. Like a prophesy about the fall of Babylon (Iraq). But I think the trib. isn't here yet. It will be much much worse that anything we imagined. That is if (some of us) are still here. But the key is to endure. At all costs. Even if Meteorites from space come crashing down. Sorry for "Preaching". And about evolution. I have a question. If evolution were true - which came first. The man or the woman? What about the simplest of life forms. Bacteria. These have stayed the same for ages. Yet how did they evolve? A micro-organism can't survive without even one of its few 'systems'. Like a tail. Now did a small tail evolve a body and the body evolve another system (i.e. Digestive.) Digestive is not an accurate word since it is more developed/complex than a simple bacteria's "system". But surely you see what I'm getting at.
Wow that was great, you seem very intellegent. I agree with what you said. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Draco
05-09-03, 19:52
The ark was not large enough to accomodate all species of animals...

Not to mention it dun provide for the species that exist nowhere near that part of the world...

As for which civilization existed more than 6000 years ago, this is one of them: Click Here (http://www.hinduism.org.za/oldest.htm#NASA%20Images%20Discover%20Ancient%20Br idge%20Between%20India%20&%20Sri%20Lanka)

Capt. Murphy
05-09-03, 20:19
I wonder if Scientists have proven that Radiocarbon dating actually works? It doesn't work on living things. I read somewhere that some scientists did a radiocarbon dating test on a living clam or oyster (can't remember which exactly). And it had a Radiocarbon date of over 5 million years old. So how do they know for certain that it works on non-living things? i.e. Artifacts, fossils, etc. :confused: I can't explaing it perfectly but maybe this will help (http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-189.htm) .

It looks like there is a similar story to the one I mentioned. About fresh-water clams. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif I think what they're saying is - Radiocarbon dating isn't perfect. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/silent.gif

Draco
05-09-03, 22:14
Carbon dating is possibly corrupted in this application, but there are other ways to do it...

gonga
06-09-03, 00:07
I think it's incorrect to tell people that their religion is wrong. Religion cannot be "argued," because it is not rational. There is no evidence of so much in the Bible, so there isn't even a place to begin the argument. Your religion is a belief. That belief is based on revealed truth, not observation, not evidence. And religion is supported by your faith, not by rational or reasoned discourse. Many people who say they don't "believe" in evolution, as if it were something to believe in, which it's not, reveal ignorance of the evidence. I do not belive in evolution. I simply recognize it as the best rational explanation of the evidence. My mind could change tomorrow, but only if there were a better theory, which there isn't. The theory of evolution does explain the evidence, and does so without contradiction. Now to argue against that rationally, you first have to spend your lifetime, as I have, studying the evidence with an open mind.

Everyone has a right to their beliefs, but please don't tell scientists they are wrong, then argue your point "scientifically," only to show how little you know of your own planet. That is nothing to be proud of. I spent nine years of my life studying the history of the Earth on my own dime, out of respect, love, and awe of God's creation, even before I began my own research and professional scientific career. Do you really think you are familiar with the evidence?

To begin your exploration of your planet, go to my web site here (http://danling.com/earthling) and click on Earthlinks | Geology. That'd be a start. Just one of those links - "Evolution Controversy," will show you the current state of the "controversy" (there is none among paleontologists).

gonga
06-09-03, 02:30
Originally posted by Draco:
The ark was not large enough to accomodate all species of animals...

Not to mention it dun provide for the species that exist nowhere near that part of the world...

As for which civilization existed more than 6000 years ago, this is one of them: Click Here (http://www.hinduism.org.za/oldest.htm#NASA%20Images%20Discover%20Ancient%20Br idge%20Between%20India%20&%20Sri%20Lanka)The land sat image of that bridge is fantastic Draco! What a cool article!

Jerico is the oldest known agrarian site, at 12,000 years bp. It is the first place we see cultivation, shell trading, and the first evidence of animal domestication - the dog, which truly is man's best friend.

gonga
06-09-03, 02:41
Radiometric dating is ungodly precise. But in the case of Carbon-14, which is used to date only organic remains of less than 50,000 years, dating of the older materials can be problematic. The reason is that the levels of background CO2 have varied over time and in different paleoenvironments, such that the ratio between the radioactive isotope and daughter product is affected. Uranium isotope has a similar problem due to background Pb. However, we have correlated other dating means to establish a "curve" which can be applied to the ratios, similar to the way a percent deviation can be applied to make an accurate reading with an imprecise instrument.

Dendrochronology, or tree-rings, can be used to adjust the radio-carbon readings, which permits C-14 dates to correlate well with stratigraphic data. Still, carbon-dating is the most difficult means of radiometric dating. Unfortunately, it is the isotope that covers the span of Homo sapiens.

groovy_nub
06-09-03, 02:44
Woa, I can see this conversation is not for me-leaving now!

~Kasia http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/cutie.gif

gonga
06-09-03, 02:48
I should like to note, however, potassium argon, which can give very precise dates under the right circumstances, is what covers the range of the early Hominids. For example, hominid remains uncovered within volcanic ash deposits greater than one million years old can be dated with accuracy.

Gothic_Muff
06-09-03, 02:51
Wow, I really need to get out of Harrison or watch the news. I never even heard about the asteroid http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/yikes.gif

gonga
06-09-03, 03:13
No need to panic. Here's some reassuring mainstream information from the JPL Near-Earth Asteroid Tracking team. It's a little dated - the estimated numbers of near-Earth asteroids have since been halved, so the estimates should be varied accordingly.

JPL NEAT (http://neat.jpl.nasa.gov/neofaq.html)

Zoe_Brooks
06-09-03, 05:07
man a lot of this is ****. Here is what I believe ( WHich is true, duh). A big asteroid hit the earth, and the organisms from that is what made animals and humans. Yes I seperated the human part from the animals, we are NOT animals and we did not come from one either. well, at least I didn't, maybe you came from an ape, but definately not me!

Draco
06-09-03, 06:17
Hehe, it isn't that easy...

Everything is true, because somebody believes it...

A god created the universe because people believe one did...

The universe created itself because people believe it did...

Truth is relative...

There are no absolutes in truth...

So everyone is right...

I am right when I say the dragons settled this world long before the Atlantians...

Mel is right when she says the bible is correct down to the letter...

The belief is the truth...

And the faith is in the belief that is the truth...

Faith is believing you are right...

Geck-o-Lizard
06-09-03, 11:23
In that case, we live in the Matrix because I believe we do... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

Well we could! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Zoe_Brooks
06-09-03, 13:45
draco, hat is the biggest load of bull cr@p I have ever heard. So, you think if some one " believes" something it automatically makes it real? Ok, I "believe" that you will grow another head on your shoulder, does that mean it will really happen? Uh, of course not. WHat are you ignorant?

gonga
06-09-03, 13:59
Hi Geck-o! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

gonga
06-09-03, 14:01
I have no religious beliefs. My perception and understanding of the world is based on continual re-examination and refinement of information that I glean from a global network of expertise. I do not consider anything absolute, and am very happy to alter my conceptual framework of the Universe if it is the best explanation of the observations and evidence. In other words, I have open eyes and an open mind. Should I apologize?

And that's the difference between me and fundamentalists. We all are pragmatists...in that we do believe our observations are real. Is your beige keyboard real? Of course it is. If someone said "it's green" you'd think "what makes you say that?" In other words, "what's your evidence that it's green?" It's just that I acknowledge this, whereas many fundamentalists deny themselves their own observations (or are happy not to make them) and insist their literal interpretation of the book is correct, and their eyes, ears, fingers, noses and tongues are not. The reason scientists do not think that dinosaurs rode in a boat is that there is no evidence of this. Should we apologize for being rational? Of course it's possible that it did happen, just as anything is possible. And I have no desire or reason to go around insisting that those beliefs are wrong. But when they start to talk scientific "evidence," that's different.

Never once in my life have I attempted to tell them that they are wrong in their beliefs. Never have I tried to "argue" that their system is incorrect (what would be the point?). But if they insist on passing off misinformation as though they were familiar with the evidence, which they obviously are not, this is morally wrong folks!

It is just as pointless for a scientifically illiterate person to argue with a scientist about evolution, as it is for me to tell him or her that their beliefs are wrong, as though I fully understand those beliefs and am in a position to judge them, which I am not and have no desire to.

gonga
06-09-03, 14:40
Originally posted by Zoe_Brooks:
man a lot of this is ****. Here is what I believe ( WHich is true, duh). A big asteroid hit the earth, and the organisms from that is what made animals and humans. Yes I seperated the human part from the animals, we are NOT animals and we did not come from one either. well, at least I didn't, maybe you came from an ape, but definately not me!You belive in a controversial but very plausible hypothesis called panspermia.

ANIMAL: "A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure."

All the hominids share these characteristics with the animal kingdom. The only way we are not animals if if you change the definition of the term. Which you have not.

There isn't a paleontologist alive who ever said that we evolved from apes. Neither has there ever been a "missing link." Your family, the hominids, appear to share a common ancestor with the great apes, called Dryopithicine, which pre-dates both apes and hominids.

If you ever take philosophy 101, you'll see that Draco simply stated the well-known concept of belief systems. If you believe it, it is real to you. You don't actually believe he has another head on his shoulder, so your statement was disingenuous and therefore irrelevant. If you DID believe it, you wouldn't say "of course not," now would you?

Is the pot calling the kettle black? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/mischievous.gif

gonga
06-09-03, 15:24
Probably the best-known philosophy embodying the belief-system concept is existentialism. There's a great existentialist site here (http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/).

Draco, I think you said you were somewhat of an existentialist once didn't you? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

gonga
06-09-03, 15:52
Capt. Murphy, Mel, et al.,

Please do not take offense! I hope you always feel welcome here! I would feel very bad if I made you feel reluctant to be yourself and make posts here. I fully support your rights to your beliefs and I will back you up on it! Your religious freedoms are just as important to me as they are to you.

Although it's true...if you start talking evidence, you will have grabbed this bear by the tail again...HeHe! ;)

gonga
06-09-03, 16:12
By the way Capt. Murphy, your posts seem very measured, reasonable, and civil. This is much appreciated. I apologize if I seem a bit emotionally charged about my posts, but I am a life-long naturalist and geologist, and I feel strongly about the role of teachers in a democracy.

"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
Sir William Beveridge, British economist

"The genius of democracies is seen not only in the great number of new words introduced but even more in the new ideas they express."
Alexis de Tocqueville, French social philosopher

"No amount of charters, direct primaries, or short ballots will make a democracy out of an illiterate people."
Walter Lippmann, U.S. journalist

John Falstaff
06-09-03, 16:21
Of course there is always George Bernard Shaw's view:-

'The man who listens to Reason is lost: Reason enslaves all whose minds are not strong enough to master her.'

;)

On the other hand he also said:-

'Every man over forty is a scoundrel.'

:(

gonga
06-09-03, 16:26
Mornin' John! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Here I am hard at work... ;)

You sometimes sound a tad existential yourself...?

John Falstaff
06-09-03, 16:40
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Gonga,

To an extent it depends on the mood of the moment. Currently solipism is the mood of the moment. (Sheesh, talking to myself again.)

:confused:

gonga
06-09-03, 16:47
Don't worry John, I really do exist too! I'm listening! :D

John Falstaff
06-09-03, 17:17
Nepotism is good too!

(Sings - badly out of key)

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/shout.gif 'I get by with a little help from my friends, gonna try witha little help from my friends ....')

Webhed
06-09-03, 18:41
Hi eerybody! Man - you go away for a few days, and look at the conversation you miss out on! It's really good to see that no one has been offended and the Mods haven't closed it down!

There's an old story, which I believe and it's this: If you place 100 monkeys in a room, all banging away on typewriters, the chances of them turning out a Shakespeare sonnet would be comparable to the chances of a mondless single cell, climbing out of the mud, growing arms, legs and a brain, putting on a suit, grabbing his briefcase and going to work...

Webhed
06-09-03, 18:43
Oh, man - I made a typo! I wish we could edit our posts!!!

tippucat
06-09-03, 20:11
Hiya Webhead. Variation on a theme would be 100 monkeys..100 years..piano..Beethoven's 5th.

Actually, you described my past boss. Did you know him or was that a wild stab in the dark! ;)

Webhed
07-09-03, 01:35
Hi TC! I think I work for your boss' brother!

gonga
10-09-03, 10:15
In case you haven't heard, we have refined the trajectory of asteroid 2003 QQ47 and determined it has a zero probability of an Earth collision in 2014.

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/09/05/asteroid.miss/index.html)

Angeldice
10-09-03, 19:22
And now a Volcano! What next? Killer Mouse mats?

universaldave
10-09-03, 19:58
I was just getting ready to type a different message than this one when all of a sudden my mouse mat attacked me! Really! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif

Angeldice
10-09-03, 20:07
Originally posted by universaldave:
I was just getting ready to type a different message than this one when all of a sudden my mouse mat attacked me! Really! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif Your house, ok now thats weird, what next, talking floppy diskes that eat you.

universaldave
10-09-03, 20:13
Originally posted by Serpent_Angel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by universaldave:
I was just getting ready to type a different message than this one when all of a sudden my mouse mat attacked me! Really! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif Your house, ok now thats weird, what next, talking floppy diskes that eat you.</font>[/QUOTE]"House?" No, I said Mouse Mat... just playing off what you said prior to that...!

neil4768
10-09-03, 20:14
Originally posted by Serpent_Angel:
And now a Volcano! What next? Killer Mouse mats?there been around for ages!

BBC 20th Oct 2000
Greenpeace has recalled promotional mouse mats after it discovered they may contain a fungus from the Brazilian Amazon that could cause an allergic reaction.
An estimated 500 mouse mats were sent out in May this year by the environmental pressure group to boost the profile of its campaign to protect the Amazon.

After parts of the mats started to discolour, the organisation sent them away from testing and found there were fungus spores in the water used to make the rubber in the mats.

The charity says there is a "remote" chance that the fungus might spread and cause an allergic reaction if people have sensitive skin.

Greenpeace's media director, Blake Lee-Harwood, said: "The chance of the mats causing an allergic reaction is extremely remote, but we have decided to err on the side of safety.

"We first noticed something was up when the mats started to discolour in small patches. We wondered what the spots were and sent a mat for external assessment.

"We expect industry and commerce to operate to the highest standards, so we can't operate to lower ones.

"The charity is currently working with the University of Brasilia Lateq Laboratory and our own laboratory at the University of Exeter on a further refinement in the production process which should solve the problem."

No risk to public

The water used for the rubber in the mouse mats came from the Jurua area of Brazil.

The charity has not analysed what species the fungus is but has narrowed it down to a number of potential families it might belong to.

The mouse mats were not put on sale to the public.

Most were sent out to organisations as part of a promotion and a small number were sent to internet cafes to see if they wanted to make an order.

Greenpeace said it has the names and addresses of all the people who they sent the mats to and has written to them asking for them back.

"When we have fine tuned the production process so this doesn't happen again we will send new mouse mats out," said Mr Lee-Harwood.

Angeldice
10-09-03, 20:15
Originally posted by universaldave:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Serpent_Angel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by universaldave:
I was just getting ready to type a different message than this one when all of a sudden my mouse mat attacked me! Really! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif Your house, ok now thats weird, what next, talking floppy diskes that eat you.</font>[/QUOTE]"House?" No, I said Mouse Mat... just playing off what you said prior to that...!</font>[/QUOTE]Oops. its cuz am a little tired. Well ok...