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laracroft8290
30-03-04, 16:59
A study of file-sharing's effects on music sales says online music trading appears to have had little part in the recent slide in CD sales.

For the study, released Monday, researchers at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina tracked music downloads over 17 weeks in 2002, matching data on file transfers with actual market performance of the songs and albums being downloaded. Even high levels of file-swapping seemed to translate into an effect on album sales that was "statistically indistinguishable from zero," they wrote.

"We find that file sharing has only had a limited effect on record sales," the study's authors wrote. "While downloads occur on a vast scale, most users are likely individuals who would not have bought the album even in the absence of file sharing."

The study, the most detailed economic modeling survey to use data obtained directly from file-sharing networks, is sure to rekindle debates over the effects of widely used software such as Kazaa or Morpheus on an ailing record business.

Big record labels have seen their sales slide precipitously in the past several years (http://news.com.com/2110-1027-5169904.html?tag=nl) , and have blamed the falling revenue in large part on rampant free music downloads online. Others have pointed to additional factors, such as lower household spending during the recession, and increased competition from other entertainment forms such as DVDs and video games, each of which have grown over the same time period.

Executives at file-sharing companies welcomed the survey, saying it should help persuade reluctant record company executives to use peer-to-peer networks as distribution channels for music "We welcome sound research into the developing peer-to-peer industry, and this study appears to have covered some interesting ground," said Nikki Hemming, chief executive officer of Kazaa parent Sharman Networks. "Consider the possibilities if the record industry actually cooperated with companies like us instead of fighting."

The study (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unc.edu%2F%7Ecigar% 2Fpapers%2FFileSharing_March2004.pdf&siteId=3&oId=2100-1027-5181562&ontId=1023&lop=nl_ex) , performed by Harvard Business School associate professor Felix Oberholzer and University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill associate professor Koleman Strumpf, used logs from two OpenNap servers in late 2002 to observe about 1.75 million downloads over their 17 week sample period.

That sample revealed interesting behavioral, as well as economic, data. Researchers found that the average user logged in only twice during that period, downloading about 17 songs. Some people vastly overshot that average, however--one user apparently logged in 71 times, downloading more than 5,000 songs.

The two professors narrowed their sample base by choosing a random sample of 500 albums from the sales charts of various music genres, and then compared the sales of these albums to the number of associated downloads.

Even in the most pessimistic version of their model, they found that it would take about 5,000 downloads to displace sales of just one physical CD, the authors wrote. Despite the huge scale of downloading worldwide, that would be only a tiny contribution to the overall slide in album sales over the past several years, they said.

Moreover, their data seemed to show that downloads could even have a slight positive effect on the sales of the top albums, the researchers said.

The study is unlikely to be the last word on the issue. Previous studies have been released showing that file sharing had both positive (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-898813.html?tag=nl) and negative effects on music sales.

The Recording Industry Association of America was quick to dismiss the results as inconsistent with earlier findings.

"Countless well-respected groups and analysts, including Edison Research, Forrester, and the University of Texas, among others, have all determined that illegal file sharing has adversely impacted the sales of CDs," RIAA spokeswoman Amy Weiss said in a statement. "Our own surveys show that those who are downloading more are buying less."

News.com (http://news.com.com/2100-1027-5181562.html?tag=cd_top)

scoobyjo19
30-03-04, 17:56
Is downloading music illegal?
Im one of those people who wouldnt buy a cd anyway but would download a few songs from it. If I wanted a whole cd, I would go and buy it. Besides, it would be the same thing as downloading a cd if you copied a cd from a friend (and I know a lot of people who do that).

NatEcho
30-03-04, 18:04
It's different laws in different countries as of now. Here for example, it has been legal up until very recently. I'm not even sure if the law has been "put forward" yet, but I think so.

I used to download singles as I consider that much like taping the song from the radio. On the off occation that a whole album managed to find it's way onto my harddrive ( http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif ) a legal (read "official release") version also found it's way onto my cd-shelf. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Phi Phi
30-03-04, 18:16
I could NOT disagree with this more.

Draco
30-03-04, 18:41
The issue isn't the people who eventually buy the CD, it's thoes who have 2000 songs and only 1 or 2 CDs...

laracroft8290
30-03-04, 19:13
I download to listen then to buy. If I like something other than the artists single(s) then I'll buy the cd.

Miss60
30-03-04, 19:20
Originally posted by laracroft8290:
I download to listen then to buy. If I like something other than the artists single(s) then I'll buy the cd.I fully agree http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif And also to get a hold of older songs and artists/songs that are not available in stores

andromeda_eats
30-03-04, 23:27
Thanks LC8290. I love the music sharing industry. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

gonga
30-03-04, 23:32
Back in the good 'ol daze I used to walk into a record store and listen to whatever I wanted. Most of the record stores had listening rooms and headphone booths. So you could sample a record before you bought it. I think online music sales could be bolstered by that sort of model, except that listening to streaming, compressed audio samples over a dial up connection sux. So I think the industry needs broadband - and I mean broader than cable or ADSL today. Then the old model could really sell audio, by both CD and download.

And the local college radio stations used to play very diverse, esoteric stuff. I used to DJ a fusion show and my station director used to let us do whatever we wanted. I used to do showcases of artists and let people call in, so people could really get to know particular artists by listening to a good hour or more of my show. Fortunately, such college stations still exist, but not as many as before it seems.

laracroft8290
31-03-04, 00:03
Originally posted by gonga:
Back in the good 'ol daze I used to walk into a record store and listen to whatever I wanted. Most of the record stores had listening rooms and headphone booths. So you could sample a record before you bought it. I think online music sales could be bolstered by that sort of model, except that listening to streaming, compressed audio samples over a dial up connection sux. So I think the industry needs broadband - and I mean broader than cable or ADSL today. Then the old model could really sell audio, by both CD and download.

And the local college radio stations used to play very diverse, esoteric stuff. I used to DJ a fusion show and my station director used to let us do whatever we wanted. I used to do showcases of artists and let people call in, so people could really get to know particular artists by listening to a good hour or more of my show. Fortunately, such college stations still exist, but not as many as before it seems.Excellent point http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif File traders have wanted this for years. Then if we liked the audio we could download lossless cd quality audio @ $0.50-0.70USD/track. That would be nice http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif The reason they haven't done this is because there's no money in it, by the time you find the servers and the bandiwdth to provide the stuff you'd have to charge a large sum of money to download. Look @ iTunes as an example ;)

[ 31. March 2004, 01:05: Message edited by: laracroft8290 ]

bumb1ebee
31-03-04, 04:02
Illegal downloading is illegal for a reason (in the US, anyway). It's copyrighted property, no one has the right to take it without permission. I don't think the argument that "it doesn't hurt CD sells" is relevant. Here in the U.S. we try to protect private property through copyright laws and whatnot, it's like a fundamental right. If you make an exception, especially for something as large as the music industry, then I believe the right to private property will lose its validity over time.

laracroft8290
31-03-04, 05:25
Yes it is wrong to download, but it's also not right to keep cd prices inflated for no reason. If all CDs were 9.99USD/each across the board I would buy, no questions asked. But they aren't. Only CDs from super new artists/independents or CDs that have been out forever are priced that low.

Miss60
31-03-04, 07:06
18-20 USD is the common price for cd's in Norway :rolleyes:

laracroft8290
31-03-04, 16:42
Originally posted by Marianne:
18-20 USD is the common price for cd's in Norway :rolleyes: Depends on where you buy them here, they usually start at 13.99+tax unless you find them on sale

Draco
31-03-04, 19:01
Price is a stupid reason for stealing something instead...

Ferrarris are too expensive, so Ima go steal one...

Miss60
31-03-04, 19:05
Music filesharing is not exactly what I'd consider stealing

Draco
31-03-04, 19:24
Does the creator make any money?

laracroft8290
31-03-04, 19:27
Originally posted by Draco:
Does the creator make any money?From cd sales? Not really...they get a percentage of the sales. Most of their money comes from signing contracts. CD sale money usually goes back the publisher for whatever they want to do with it.

Draco
31-03-04, 19:33
Originally posted by laracroft8290:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
Does the creator make any money?From cd sales? Not really...they get a percentage of the sales. Most of their money comes from signing contracts. CD sale money usually goes back the publisher for whatever they want to do with it.</font>[/QUOTE]So by downloading music you are only taking money from the record label...

I happen to know an artist that seems to think things like KaZaa are taking money out of her pocket, so what do you say to that?

laracroft8290
31-03-04, 19:39
Independent labels/artists would suffer yes. I've never downloaded a song by anyone of the independent persuasion because I usually buy their cds to give them a chance.

As far as mainstream pop artists...do you honestly believe that they are suffering that much? Multi-Million dollar homes, outfits that cost more than my car, cars that cost more than the average person's home?

Draco
31-03-04, 19:45
Originally posted by laracroft8290:
Independent labels/artists would suffer yes. I've never downloaded a song by anyone of the independent persuasion because I usually buy their cds to give them a chance.You maybe, and Im sure there are quite a few who are likeminded, but you are in the minority there, most P2P ppl only want something for nothing, whether it be games, music, movies, or even books (the ones not published on the net)...

laracroft8290
31-03-04, 19:46
And I'm not saying that music downloading is neither right or wrong. I'm just saying that the prices they charge for CDs is more than what they should be. Maybe the music industry itself is seeing a trend that people don't want to buy cds anymore because they don't want to pay the prices or they'd rather just have the digital file to listen to because it's more convenient.

The music industry doesn't want to change to a digital cd environment because it would cost them more money...I have a theory that if the major record labels started offering lossless music online for a low fee they would see a tremendous change in the way people buy music; (this is not the case with iTunes because it is still lossy, not as bad as mp3 but not near cd quality)

[ 31. March 2004, 20:48: Message edited by: laracroft8290 ]

laracroft8290
31-03-04, 19:49
Originally posted by Draco:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by laracroft8290:
Independent labels/artists would suffer yes. I've never downloaded a song by anyone of the independent persuasion because I usually buy their cds to give them a chance.You maybe, and Im sure there are quite a few who are likeminded, but you are in the minority there, most P2P ppl only want something for nothing, whether it be games, music, movies, or even books (the ones not published on the net)...</font>[/QUOTE]Excellent point. There are many people out there that have pirated movies, programs, books, games, everything, but have the publishers or retailers ever offered to download such material for a reasonable fee?

The only problem is such things except for maybe the books and movies is that the bandwidth requirements for each side would be out of this world resulting in larger costs. It wouldn't be economical for the business to do this so they don't, and people continue to pirate.

It's a nasty cycle, that's never really going to end. It will continue to perpetuate itself from now to eternity. The power to change is in the hands of the industry itself, they can either break the cycle with something innovative or they can perpetuate by refusing to change.

[ 31. March 2004, 20:54: Message edited by: laracroft8290 ]

Draco
31-03-04, 19:56
Originally posted by laracroft8290:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by laracroft8290:
Independent labels/artists would suffer yes. I've never downloaded a song by anyone of the independent persuasion because I usually buy their cds to give them a chance.You maybe, and Im sure there are quite a few who are likeminded, but you are in the minority there, most P2P ppl only want something for nothing, whether it be games, music, movies, or even books (the ones not published on the net)...</font>[/QUOTE]Excellent point. There are many people out there that have pirated movies, programs, books, games, everything, but have the publishers or retailers ever offered to download such material for a reasonable fee?

The only problem is such things except for maybe the books and movies is that the bandwidth requirements for each side would be out of this world resulting in larger costs. It wouldn't be economical for the business to do this so they don't, and people continue to pirate.

It's a nasty cycle, that's never really going to end. It will continue to perpetuate itself from now to eternity. The power to change is in the hands of the industry itself, they can either break the cycle with something innovative or they can perpetuate by refusing to change.</font>[/QUOTE]That would make the publishers and the retailers obsolete...