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Tenac
27-08-08, 13:35
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20080827/twl-miliband-warning-on-new-cold-war-3fd0ae9.html

Russia threatens to attack sites in poland...hands up, who thinks Russia is going to start world war 3?

Wana b like Lara
27-08-08, 13:38
No! I don't! :mad: And i really doubt it's going to be a World War 3 if a war at all!

Tenac
27-08-08, 13:49
No! I don't! :mad: And i really doubt it's going to be a World War 3 if a war at all!

"Mr Medvedev said the deployment of an anti-missile system close to Russian borders "will, of course, create additional tensions".

He said: "We will have to react somehow, to react, of course, in a military way."

dunno they sound a tad upset

toxicraider
27-08-08, 13:51
No! I don't! :mad: And i really doubt it's going to be a World War 3 if a war at all!

If there was a war I think it would be pretty big, considering essential considering nato is most of Europe and US and canada, and China and iran are allies with Russia, i don't really want to find out though.

interstellardave
27-08-08, 14:04
Why doesn't Russia just work on their own missile defense system if they are so insecure about being unprotected while others supposedly are?

violentblossom
27-08-08, 14:09
If there was a war I think it would be pretty big, considering essential considering nato is most of Europe and US and canada, and China and iran are allies with Russia, i don't really want to find out though.

same here.

i'd hate to find out what China, Russia, and Iran have up their sleeves in these instances.

America (and i am American, btw) seems a little cocky sometimes when dealing with certain other countries.. i really hope nothing huge comes out of this stuff going on right now.

toxicraider
27-08-08, 14:14
same here.

i'd hate to find out what China, Russia, and Iran have up their sleeves in these instances.

America (and i am American, btw) seems a little cocky sometimes when dealing with certain other countries.. i really hope nothing huge comes out of this stuff going on right now.

Well being so powerful i guess it's almost a responsibility to take part in world affairs, but yh, also the UK and other countries always follow and it annoys many people here (i think). :)

Mad Tony
27-08-08, 14:18
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago.

There will not be World War 3 or anything like that. People are just taking this out of proportion as usual.

toxicraider
27-08-08, 14:29
There was a thread about this a few weeks ago.

There will not be World War 3 or anything like that. People are just taking this out of proportion as usual.

I'm not saying there will be, just if there was a theoretical war, it would be big.

Goose
27-08-08, 14:50
I'm not saying there will be, just if there was a theoretical war, it would be big.

Depends how you define warfare. At the moment we have almost all the countries in Nato fighting in Afghanistan, against Jihadis from all over the world, along with Russia invading and occupying Chechnya and claiming its part of the 'global war on terror', i think were in a pretty much state of world war now, just not on the level of the previous two.

toxicraider
27-08-08, 14:58
Depends how you define warfare. At the moment we have almost all the countries in Nato fighting in Afghanistan, against Jihadis from all over the world, along with Russia invading and occupying Chechnya and claiming its part of the 'global war on terror', i think were in a pretty much state of world war now, just not on the level of the previous two.

That's true, but I don't personally consider it as a full war, perhaps merely because they aren't on home soil.

violentblossom
27-08-08, 15:01
Well being so powerful i guess it's almost a responsibility to take part in world affairs, but yh, also the UK and other countries always follow and it annoys many people here (i think). :)

Absolutely. I'm glad that we render aid and whatnot as much as we do, and i'm glad we aren't a countries that is stepped on by anyone.. but being so out there and up in everyone's face is something that could really be our downfall.

Russia and China's power frightens me.

Mad Tony
27-08-08, 15:08
That's true, but I don't personally consider it as a full war, perhaps merely because they aren't on home soil.Going by that logic, World War II would not have been a full war for anybody outside the fighting zones (which were mainly Europe and the pacific) since it wasn't on their home soil.

Depends how you define warfare. At the moment we have almost all the countries in Nato fighting in Afghanistan, against Jihadis from all over the world, along with Russia invading and occupying Chechnya and claiming its part of the 'global war on terror', i think were in a pretty much state of world war now, just not on the level of the previous two.I agree. I think the main difference here is that what we (NATO) are fighting against is mainly just terrorist organizations and extremists, not entire countries like WWI and WWII.

toxicraider
27-08-08, 15:11
Going by that logic, World War II would not have been a full war for anybody outside the fighting zones (which were mainly Europe and the pacific) since it wasn't on their home soil.

I agree. I think the main difference here is that what we (NATO) are fighting against is mainly just terrorist organizations and extremists, not entire countries like WWI and WWII.

Would you then see the fighting between Russia and georgia a war? what about between Israel and Lebanon last year? I find it hard to define myself.

but being so out there and up in everyone's face is something that could really be our downfall.

Russia and China's power frightens me.

I do have to agree with that, but Russia isn't really gaining much power (yet at least) but china could become a concern.

Mad Tony
27-08-08, 15:17
Would you then see the fighting between Russia and georgia a war? what about between Israel and Lebanon last year? I find it hard to define myself.


I do have to agree with that, but Russia isn't really gaining much power (yet at least) but china could become a concern.No, but a lot of countries in the world are fighting against something in one way or another. NATO and various other countries are fighting the war against terror, George are fighting Russia etc etc.

To be honest, I'm already concerned about China. They have a rather poor human rights record. I'm not saying this is the Chinese people's fault, rather it's the fault of the communist dictators in charge.

Catapharact
27-08-08, 15:19
No, but a lot of countries in the world are fighting against something in one way or another. NATO and various other countries are fighting the war against terror, George are fighting Russia etc etc.

To be honest, I'm already concerned about China. They have a rather poor human rights record. I'm not saying this is the Chinese people's fault, rather it's the fault of the communist dictators in charge.

Oh really? And what pray tell under the legislature would define the Iraq fiasco as Terror? Because as I see it Iraq had no involvement with any Terrorist organizations. Heck, Saddam wouldn't let anyone else challenge his seat of power.

toxicraider
27-08-08, 15:22
Oh really? And what pray tell under the legislature would define the Iraq fiasco as Terror? Because as I see it Iraq had no involvement with any Terrorist organizations. Heck, Saddam wouldn't let anyone else challenge his seat of power.

Exactly, i thought the main reason for the invasion was because of the 'nuclear weapons' posessed, also fueled by terrorism which tbh had little to do with Iraq, and if anything has been fueled by the war.


To be honest, I'm already concerned about China. They have a rather poor human rights record. I'm not saying this is the Chinese people's fault, rather it's the fault of the communist dictators in charge.

Yh i know, but it's not a threat to us (that sounded very harsh), not yet at least, but it is our concern for the wellbeing of the innocent people of china.

interstellardave
27-08-08, 15:28
Yh i know, but it's not a threat to us (that sounded very harsh), not yet at least, but it is our concern for the wellbeing of the innocent people of china.

China is already a threat to just about everyone... they just aren't doing much sabre-rattling at this point. They have, however, positioned themselves very well both economically and militarily. They control the Panama canal, for instance... to say that that is a strategic advantage over the US is an understatement.

Mad Tony
27-08-08, 15:30
Exactly, i thought the main reason for the invasion was because of the 'nuclear weapons' posessed, also fueled by terrorism which tbh had little to do with Iraq, and if anything has been fueled by the war.Actually, nobody said anything about nuclear weapons. You're thinking of the WMDs

Oh really? And what pray tell under the legislature would define the Iraq fiasco as Terror? Because as I see it Iraq had no involvement with any Terrorist organizations. Heck, Saddam wouldn't let anyone else challenge his seat of power.http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/iraqi-documents-show-al-qaeda-ties/

I also read in the 9/11 commission report that Iraq helped harbor members of Al-Qaeda.

Catapharact
27-08-08, 15:32
China is already a threat to just about everyone... they just aren't doing much sabre-rattling at this point. They have, however, positioned themselves very well both economically and militarily. They control the Panama canal, for instance... to say that that is a strategic advantage over the US is an understatement.

... All done so perfectly legaly might I add. The land around the area was legally bought and has been under rightful control. Should I automatically assume that forigen investors in the US for instance are a threat? Because right now, its them along with small businesses that are keeping the U.S. economic boat from sinking.

Catapharact
27-08-08, 15:34
Actually, nobody said anything about nuclear weapons. You're thinking of the WMDs

http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/iraqi-documents-show-al-qaeda-ties/

I also read in the 9/11 commission report that Iraq helped harbor members of Al-Qaeda.

And how much faith do you think I am going to put into that source when the 9/11 report actually CONTRADICTED that. In simple terms, it gave no evidence of Al-Qaidea presence in the region and in no way accounted for traning camps, etc. Giving me that source is like saying that I am to belive the words of Al-Jazera.

So either you read the wrong documents or you haven't read it.

Mad Tony
27-08-08, 15:35
So either you read the wrong documents or you haven't read it.Trust me, I've read it and it did mention something about Iraq harboring members of Al-Qaeda.

Catapharact
27-08-08, 15:36
Trust me, I've read it and it did mention something about Iraq harboring members of Al-Qaeda.

Conclusion: Report and I quote:

Overall it said that "more weight was placed on the intelligence than it could bear", and that judgements had stretched available intelligence "to the outer limits".

In simple terms, the intellegence community screwed up bad.

Mad Tony
27-08-08, 15:37
Maybe it was Pakistan I was thinking about.

interstellardave
27-08-08, 15:38
... All done so perfectly legaly might I add. The land around the area was legally bought and has been under rightful control. Should I automatically assume that forigen investors in the US for instance are a treat? Because right now, its them along with small businesses that are keeping the U.S. economic boat from sinking.

Never said it wasn't legal... but it remains a threat should war ever break out w/China. I think people are naive to separate so-called "private" chinese enterprise from the Chinese government... I think that line is very blurry if there even is one!

And foreign investors are a threat because, if they are so important to the US economy, and I think you are right, then they hold a great power in their hands. A rug that can pulled out from under us at any point.

The way I see it the US will be a 2nd rate world power in 20 years, maybe less. China will be the top dog sooner rather than later, unless something unforseen occurs.

Catapharact
27-08-08, 15:42
Never said it wasn't legal... but it remains a threat should war ever break out w/China. I think people are naive to separate so-called "private" chinese enterprise from the Chinese government... I think that line is very blurry if there even is one!

And foreign investors are a threat because, if they are so important to the US economy, and I think you are right, then they hold a great power in their hands. A rug that can pulled out from under us at any point.

The way I see it the US will be a 2nd rate world power in 20 years, maybe less. China will be the top dog sooner rather than later, unless something unforseen occurs.

Well then IMO they are following upon the economic ideals that U.S. set out and has ever been following. If they do stretch far ahead of the world, it only tells me that under competitve nature of global enterprises, China won fair and square. So its down to natural selection then (and this should please all the Darwinians out there.) If the U.S. wants to compete, think its high time they do so in terms of quality since quantity happens to be China's stronghold now.

interstellardave
27-08-08, 15:47
@ Cat:

Standing above it all and looking downward, it's just another cycle of human history. Empires rise and fall, and that happens more quickly these days than it used to. The US has lost focus, has lost the drive that made it great. There are so many reasons for this that they can't be listed. It's just true. China just happens to be rising to fill the void with their strange brand of state-controlled capitalism combined with a tremendous number of unskilled and semi-silled laborers to drive it forward. Militarily they have made great strides as well... and manpower still hasn't been rendered useless on the battlefield, so they have that advantage in any conflict, save all out nuclear war.

I'm reminded of the fact that McArthur wanted approval for 20 sites in China to be nuked during the Korean war... I wonder what in hell the world would be like now if that had happened!

toxicraider
27-08-08, 15:47
Never said it wasn't legal... but it remains a threat should war ever break out w/China. I think people are naive to separate so-called "private" chinese enterprise from the Chinese government... I think that line is very blurry if there even is one!

And foreign investors are a threat because, if they are so important to the US economy, and I think you are right, then they hold a great power in their hands. A rug that can pulled out from under us at any point.

The way I see it the US will be a 2nd rate world power in 20 years, maybe less. China will be the top dog sooner rather than later, unless something unforseen occurs.

Yes, if anything happened, china could cease exports and we would be in bid trouble. Britain and France had control over the Suez canal, right next to Italian controlled Abyssinia and had the ability to cut off all trade and exports, but didn't because it risked their own economic stability, would that matter as much to China?

also considering nuclear weapons have the ability to destroy thousands, possibly millions, they are WMDs, but i don't think it was specified what type of WMDs iraq was supposed to possess, but i suppose it could have been entirely chemical.

Well then IMO they are following upon the economic ideals that U.S. set out and has ever been following. If they do stretch far ahead of the world, it only tells me that under competitve nature of global enterprises, China won fair and square. So its down to natural selection then (and this should please all the Darwinians out there.) If the U.S. wants to compete, think its high time they do so in terms of quality since quantity happens to be China's stronghold now.

It's true, America used to be much further ahead of the rest of the world, but due to cheap production abroad, china's economy is booming thanks to production, not necessarily all America's fault, also Europe as a whole to the same, if not a greater extent, but also not entirely the governments fault, the individual manufactures do wish to cut costs, but yes it could have been controlled better.

Catapharact
27-08-08, 15:57
Standing above it all and looking downward, it's just another cycle of human history. Empires rise and fall, and that happens more quickly these days than it used to. The US has lost focus, has lost the drive that made it great. There are so many reasons for this that they can't be listed. It's just true. China just happens to be rising to fill the void with their strange brand of state-controlled capitalism combined with a tremendous number of unskilled and semi-silled laborers to drive it forward. Militarily they have made great strides as well... and manpower still hasn't been rendered useless on the battlefield, so they have that advantage in any conflict, save all out nuclear war.

I'm reminded of the fact that McArthur wanted approval for 20 sites in China to be nuked during the Korean war... I wonder what in hell the world would be like now if that had happened!


The focus IMO has shifted to unecessary and costly mistakes Dave; And the current administration and many like it others in the past (democrats and onwards) aren't any different. Just take into account the current housing market crisis in the U.S. I can verily tell you that a good trained economist would have disbanded against letting lones out on little to no collateral; Yet the Administraion approved it. Well... Now the company needs to be bailed out (and IMO its gonna be ANOTHER big mistake to do just that.)

And people usually scoff at bookies. Well, they could have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble.

interstellardave
27-08-08, 16:03
The focus IMO has shifted to unecessary and costly mistakes Dave; And the current administration and many like it others in the past (democrats and onwards) aren't any different. Just take into account the current housing market crisis in the U.S. I can verily tell you that a good trained economist would have disbanded against letting lones out on little to no collateral; Yet the Administraion approved it. Well... Now the company needs to be bailed out (and IMO its gonna be ANOTHER big mistake to do just that.)

And people usually scoff at bookies. Well, they could have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble.

Oh man, just thinking about the problems in the US economy gives me a headache--and a stomach ache! Maybe the Hadron collider will solve all our problems with that theoretical black hole, huh?! :p

SamReeves
27-08-08, 16:34
China is already a threat to just about everyone... they just aren't doing much sabre-rattling at this point. They have, however, positioned themselves very well both economically and militarily. They control the Panama canal, for instance... to say that that is a strategic advantage over the US is an understatement.

The Chinese are currently in a nuke sub bulding race with the U.S. Navy. They are looking to rattle their sabers in the Pacific shipping lanes.

Never said it wasn't legal... but it remains a threat should war ever break out w/China. I think people are naive to separate so-called "private" chinese enterprise from the Chinese government... I think that line is very blurry if there even is one!

That's why I am a huge advocate of re-arming the Japanese. They are a pretty solid U.S. ally, they still dislike the Chinese, and would make a big impact in being a deterrent in the Pacific.

interstellardave
27-08-08, 16:39
That's why I am a huge advocate of re-arming the Japanese. They are a pretty solid U.S. ally, they still dislike the Chinese, and would make a big impact in being a deterrent in the Pacific.

Agreed... Japan has always had good reason to fear China... and it might be possible (although I don't know for sure) that resentment over Japans' atrocities in China during WW2 still exists in the Chinese mind. We should let Japan arms themselves again... they certainly have the economic power to do so.

Catapharact
27-08-08, 16:40
Agreed... Japan has always had good reason to fear China... and it might be possible (although I don't know for sure) that resentment over Japans' atrocities in China during WW2 still exists in the Chinese mind. We should let Japan arms themselves again... they certainly have the economic power to do so.

Only to hammer them down again if they gain key ecomonic and military power? Keep in mind that China's main investors were big U.S. corporations; and their management system were taught to key corporate hieararchs which now run some of the more astute companies there. Japan would be no different.

toxicraider
27-08-08, 16:43
Agreed... Japan has always had good reason to fear China... and it might be possible (although I don't know for sure) that resentment over Japans' atrocities in China during WW2 still exists in the Chinese mind. We should let Japan arms themselves again... they certainly have the economic power to do so.

Yes there are, some of my chinese friends have grandparents that deeply resent Japan, and I think it's clear that Japan is really more in favour of Usa and Europe now so I agree.

^^ that's true, but why exactly did the US allow the growth of China, which they resented for so long, and remains communist to this day?

Mad Tony
27-08-08, 16:45
Why aren't Japan already re-armed? They should be.

toxicraider
27-08-08, 16:45
Why aren't Japan already re-armed? They should be.

Germany is, why not Japan? Japan was afterall pretty much led by military leaders at the time and since then the government has dramatically changed.

That's why I am a huge advocate of re-arming the Japanese. They are a pretty solid U.S. ally, they still dislike the Chinese, and would make a big impact in being a deterrent in the Pacific.

agreed

Angelx14
27-08-08, 16:50
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20080827/twl-miliband-warning-on-new-cold-war-3fd0ae9.html

Russia threatens to attack sites in poland...hands up, who thinks Russia is going to start world war 3?

Well, not with Poland, but yes, I do believe they will start one eventually, but they wouldn't win.