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interstellardave
01-09-08, 04:30
5 buried alive 'tradition' - Pakistani pol

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Saturday, August 30th 2008, 10:41 PM

(http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Islamabad)
ISLAMABAD (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Islamabad), Pakistan (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Pakistan) - A Pakistani lawmaker defended a decision by northwestern tribesmen to bury five women alive because they wanted to choose their own husbands, telling stunned members of Parliament to spare him their outrage.


"These are centuries-old traditions, and I will continue to defend them," Israr Ullah Zehri, who represents Baluchistan (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Balochistan) province, told The Associated Press (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/The+Associated+Press) Saturday.


"Only those who indulge in immoral acts should be afraid."


The women, three of whom were teenagers, were first shot and then thrown into a ditch.


They were still breathing as mud was shoveled over their bodies, according to media reports, which said their only "crime" was that they wished to marry men of their own choosing.


Zehri told a packed and stunned Parliament on Friday that Baluch tribal traditions helped stop obscenity and then asked fellow lawmakers to stop making such a fuss about it.


Several lawmakers stood up in protest, describing the so-called honor killings as "barbaric."


Human rights groups accused local authorities of trying to hush up the executions, which according to local media reports and activists took place a month ago in Baba Kat, a remote village in Jafferabad district.

Crayons
01-09-08, 04:33
Wtf!!!!!!! These people are not normal.
This is barbaric.

Triple Edit: This is sooooo unbelievely ridiculous, what's wrong with these people....
"These are centuries-old traditions, and I will continue to defend them"
Barbaric? Yes.

Benguitar
01-09-08, 04:42
....


I wish I was there... To say just one line to the buriers...

"Say hello to my Uzis'

Shark_Blade
01-09-08, 04:53
Apparently they prioritise traditions more than thinking things over with their brains.

findme
01-09-08, 04:54
This is barbaric.




wow havent heard that word in LONG.

Death Mask
01-09-08, 04:54
Sick.... it is truly a blessing to not live in that part of the world, sorry if I offend anyone but those people have really messed up traditions, religions and ways of living, there is this website (theync.com) where you can find these people executing innocent men & women right in front of their families and everyone else, I've seen a lot of beheading videos on that site, the other day I saw a 12 year old boy (I believe Iraqi) cutting another man's head off, and he felt no remorse doing so, it was like second nature for him, I also hear about the countless suicide attacks those people have committed.

They say that we are supposed to respect and accept everyone on Earth but as hard as I try I can't do that, and it's all because of their actions.

violentblossom
01-09-08, 05:01
yes, i am incredibly grateful to live in the country i do. America is by no means perfect, but at least i am allowed to state my opinions and such as i please.

those poor women.

i hope the men who did this can't sleep at night, though, if this is common practice, they unfortunately probably will be able to.

Draco
01-09-08, 05:50
As long as they insist on barbarism, they are not civilized.

Goose
01-09-08, 05:57
Im not sure why people are surprised about this story, this has been happening for hundreds of years, and it was happening in Afghanistan before NATO came and took the country from the Taliban.

Draco
01-09-08, 05:59
Im not sure why people are surprised about this story, this has been happening for hundreds of years, and it was happening in Afghanistan before NATO came and took the country from the Taliban.

I'm not surprised, it just goes to show civilizing someone else's world is a futile gesture.

Goose
01-09-08, 06:12
I'm not surprised, it just goes to show civilizing someone else's world is a futile gesture.

Depends how you go about it, in India, Hindus used to do somthing called Sati to widows, where they burn the widows on the same funeral pyre as there husbands. When the British empire took India they were obviously shocked by this, so to stop it happening General Napier said:

"It is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

Oddly enough that custom soon vanished.

Immortalis08
01-09-08, 06:34
Horrible. Not a good move for those men. Assuming their muslim, with ramadan quickly approaching, they may have just put their soul and social standing at stake. :pi:

Goose
01-09-08, 06:36
Horrible. Not a good move for those men. Assuming their muslim, with ramadan quickly approaching, they may have just put their soul and social standing at stake. :pi:

The entire reason they did it was for there soul and social standing.

Immortalis08
01-09-08, 06:47
Whose souls? The deceased women, or the men that committed the execution?

I might be wrong, but I thought that women were allowed to choose their husbands. I also thought the reason they did this act was due to their devotion to their tradition, but I'm somewhat perplexed. Even if its part of their tradition, wouldn't the men also be putting their eternal spirit at risk so close if not during the holy month of Quran. Would they even risk it? I thought women wouldn't get executed unless they cheated and were unfaithful. :confused:

Goose
01-09-08, 06:52
Whose souls? The deceased women, or the men that committed the execution?

I might be wrong, but I thought that women were allowed to choose their husbands. I also thought the reason they did this act was due to their devotion to their tradition, but I'm somewhat perplexed. Even if its part of their tradition, wouldn't the men also be putting their eternal spirit at risk so close if not during the holy month of Quran. Would they even risk it? I thought women wouldn't get executed unless they cheated and were unfaithful. :confused:


Tradition in the tribal areas of Pakistan and Afganistan is based on Shriah, Islamic Law, women only have half a brain in there opinions and are not allowed education, or even basic freedoms like showing there face. If they dont marry the right person they bring shame and dishonor onto families and villages, the honour system is based on the Quran.

Heres an example, not from Pakistan but Iraq of how they view honour and murder: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights

Death Mask
01-09-08, 06:59
^
I bet no woman in those countries will ever experience the great feeling of something called 'happiness'.

Immortalis08
01-09-08, 07:02
Tradition in the tribal areas of Pakistan and Afganistan is based on Shriah, Islamic Law, women only have half a brain in there opinions and are not allowed education, or even basic freedoms like showing there face. If they dont marry the right person they bring shame and dishonor onto families and villages, the honour system is based on the Quran.

Heres an example, not from Pakistan but Iraq of how they view honour and murder: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights

I see, thanks for the info. :) So basically, on top of being brutally murdered, the death of the women was considered more as doing justice and restoring honour upon their traditions. I knew there were laws such as covering the face, and showing the least amount of skin as possible, but I was unaware that they still couldn't choose their husbands.

Its their tradition and while I do respect their beliefs, I don't agree with their actions. Its sad to see human beings restricted from following their hearts and making their own decisions.

Goose
01-09-08, 07:02
^
I bet no woman in those countries will ever experience the great feeling of something called 'happiness'.

Not when your own family will kill you for using facebook!

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/04/04/saudi-woman-beaten-murdered

I see, thanks for the info. :) So basically, on top of being brutally murdered, the death of the women was considered more as doing justice and restoring honour upon their traditions. I knew there were laws such as covering the face, and showing the least amount of skin as possible, but I was unaware that they still couldn't choose their husbands.

Its their tradition and while I do respect their beliefs, I don't agree with their actions. Its sad to see human beings restricted from following their hearts and making their own decisions.


Theres no such thing as following your heart in places like that, Islam literally means 'Submission', thats everything, body and soul submitted to Allah. Things are chosen with Allah in mind, not yourself.

Immortalis08
01-09-08, 07:04
*sigh* Thats a bit exaggerated. :pi: Wouldn't doubt that its true though.

Goose
01-09-08, 07:08
*sigh* Thats a bit exaggerated. :pi: Wouldn't doubt that its true though.

Which part is exadurated? The facebook part of the Islam meaning submission?

I think people in Turkey have it best. There a little more liberal.

Immortalis08
01-09-08, 07:16
Which part is exadurated? The facebook part of the Islam meaning submission?

I think people in Turkey have it best. There a little more liberal.

The facebook part. ;) As I have stated previously, people will always have their beliefs. I for one, would never be part of that (no offense anyone:) ) But of course, not everyone has the luxury of choosing their religion or place of birth I suppose. I just don't believe that anyone has a right to brutally kill others, religiously or otherwise. But ultimately its their way of serving their god.

ivannnnn
01-09-08, 07:19
^ I'm so grateful not live in a Islamic country. My country is the largest Muslim in the world though it's not a religious country. It's not as liberal as Turkey, here is equal.

About the news, hmm...I'm still looking for the answer. I bet that murder is in the name of religion. Poor them, I'm 100% sure that Islam is the best, but the followers are not that good. :rolleyes:

Goose
01-09-08, 07:21
The facebook part. ;) As I have stated previously, people will always have their beliefs. I for one, would never be part of that (no offense anyone:) ) But of course, not everyone has the luxury of choosing their religion or place of birth I suppose. I just don't believe that anyone has a right to brutally kill others, religiously or otherwise. But ultimately its their way of serving their god.

Unfortunatly its not exadurated, Saudi clerics believe facebook to be a serious problem in SA, theres been alot of hype about it bringing evil western values to the youth over there and infecting them to some degree, which is why it happened.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1583420/Saudi-woman-killed-for-chatting-on-Facebook.html

^ I'm so grateful not live in a Islamic country. My country is the largest Muslim in the world though it's not a religious country. It's not as liberal as Turkey, here is equal.

About the news, hmm...I'm still looking for the answer. I bet that murder is in the name of religion. Poor them, I'm 100% sure that Islam is the best, but the followers are not that good. :rolleyes:

Islam is very similar to Christianity, but its interpritations and some countries refusal to move away from the middle ages create a gulf between them.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 07:44
And people wonder why I say religion is the root of all evil lol

I like that quote about what the British did in India, very good spin lol, kinda tit for tat. Maybe Nato needs to do that? Not that they would ever have the guts to really but we can hope.

I'm all for respecting other peoples cultures but honestly, newsflash: its not 1200AD anymore (no offense intended :)). The Chinese had similar rituals when it comes to honoring the family and such, however they have managed to keep these traditions through less brutal punishments.

I remember at school at one of those year level 'bonding' days (if you dont know what that is consider yourself lucky), so many kids would get up and say how they had left Islam for Christianity because it was too archaic. One of my friends on my hockey team at the time even said she left because she was ashamed to be linked to it (which sounded a bit extreme but then I've never been Islamic). We get alot of Islam people immigrate (some actually flee) here, particularly women who want an education, and to be able to work and such.

Surely the leaders of these countries could see what it is doing to them? If so many people are leaving how can they not see the need for change?

Goose
01-09-08, 07:55
Its odd how they claim Jesus to be a prophet, and that all prophets are perfect the way Allah is, yet they ignore one of his main stories and its teaching.

"whoevers sinless can throw the first stone"

As if the people who buried these women are perfect humans.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 08:06
Its odd how they claim Jesus to be a prophet, and that all prophets are perfect the way Allah is, yet they ignore one of his main stories and its teaching.

"whoevers sinless can throw the first stone"

As if the people who buried these women are perfect humans.

Thats very true. But I find most religions to have loopholes and contradictions like that. Its why I choose not to have one.

rickybazire
01-09-08, 08:24
It may be their religion and that's how it goes. But still, it is completely barbaric. How can things like this happen?!?!

Lemmie
01-09-08, 08:29
^
I bet no woman in those countries will ever experience the great feeling of something called 'happiness'.

I think that's probably an assumption too far.

I am sickened by this attack on these women, and by this politician's callous stance on the matter. Especially as these women (and girls) only wanted to pursue a dream of having an equal partnership with a husband that they could choose.

But we can't forget that we too come from barbarian pasts (Not to say the people who committed this crime are barbarians, they are merely barbarous). Someone said something about the civilising effect of the British on the Indian custom of sati. Maybe that's true, but we Brits used to cut off people's heads and throw them at the enemy! And that wasn't just when we were tribesmen fighting against a Roman invasion millenia ago - this was in the 13th century!

And even in the 20th century 'civilised' Western powers have been less than fair in their treatment to supposedly 'conquered' peoples. Look at British actions in India which led to the Mutiny of the 1850s. Look at what happened a hundred years later in Algeria between the Algerians and France.

Humans are extremely good at barbarism. That's why crimes of hate and violence towards others has endured for so long in our history.

Goose
01-09-08, 09:00
I think that's probably an assumption too far.

I am sickened by this attack on these women, and by this politician's callous stance on the matter. Especially as these women (and girls) only wanted to pursue a dream of having an equal partnership with a husband that they could choose.

But we can't forget that we too come from barbarian pasts (Not to say the people who committed this crime are barbarians, they are merely barbarous). Someone said something about the civilising effect of the British on the Indian custom of sati. Maybe that's true, but we Brits used to cut off people's heads and throw them at the enemy! And that wasn't just when we were tribesmen fighting against a Roman invasion millenia ago - this was in the 13th century!

And even in the 20th century 'civilised' Western powers have been less than fair in their treatment to supposedly 'conquered' peoples. Look at British actions in India which led to the Mutiny of the 1850s. Look at what happened a hundred years later in Algeria between the Algerians and France.

Humans are extremely good at barbarism. That's why crimes of hate and violence towards others has endured for so long in our history.

The mutiny in India is abit different from this. The British East India company had an Army that were treated well considering there background, the British took great pains to see that there religious and traditional needs were met.

The reason they went to war was that they believed the Christians were about to convert them, which created mass histeria, then the last straw was when the british re-armed them with a new type of rifle that required the top of each cartridge to be bitten off, as it was covered in fabric, but the Hindus believed that the fabric was being held in place by cow fat, the muslims believed it to be pig fat, which neither are allowed to eat. That was literally the reasons they began to mutiny, not because of the tyranical victorian rule.

Infact, given the chance, no doubt many indians would rather be in british employ with barrack acomodations and food then what they have now.

The key difference is that was over 100 years ago, not last week.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 09:12
Infact, given the chance, no doubt many indians would rather be in british employ with barrack acomodations and food then what they have now.

Asked them did you?

The key difference is that was over 100 years ago, not last week.

That's true, my point was that every human society has gone through barbaric and violent periods of their history - and are still capable of committing atrocities despite their civilised exteriors.

But I am not willing to see every person in Baluchistan (or even, as some people think) Pakistan and Afghanistan to be tarred with the same brush as these criminal individuals. No doubt there are committed people working to change attitudes and make sure that these practices are thought about and consigned to our history, not our future.

There are probably many good and beautiful things about these people's culture. But often we can only see the bad.

Wana b like Lara
01-09-08, 09:25
OMG!! :eek: WTF?! :mad: Women don't have rights?! That's sexism!! :yik:

Goose
01-09-08, 09:30
Asked them did you?



That's true, my point was that every human society has gone through barbaric and violent periods of their history - and are still capable of committing atrocities despite their civilised exteriors.

But I am not willing to see every person in Baluchistan (or even, as some people think) Pakistan and Afghanistan to be tarred with the same brush as these criminal individuals. No doubt there are committed people working to change attitudes and make sure that these practices are thought about and consigned to our history, not our future.

There are probably many good and beautiful things about these people's culture. But often we can only see the bad.

Im sure there were good and beutiful things about the Moors murderers to, but i cant help looking at the bad.

No-ones saying all muslims are like that, but there is alot of fundamentalism going on.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 09:36
Im sure there were good and beutiful things about the Moors murderers to, but i cant help looking at the bad.

Possibly there was, but that's a different situation. The murders of those children weren't committed to defend a cultural idea; it was the mental illness of the perpetrators and presumably their history that drove them to commit such a crime.

Anyway, let's not bring in serial killing of minors to the general mix of honour killings we already have in this discussion. :(

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 09:42
That's true, my point was that every human society has gone through barbaric and violent periods of their history - and are still capable of committing atrocities despite their civilised exteriors.

Even so, while the Romans, Greeks, Hitites, Saxons, Chinese, Maori, and the list goes on, went through their barbaric days, the rest of the world was going through them too. I guess you could go as far as saying it was the norm. The majority didn't see it as strange or taboo to burn heretics at the steak, and go out to battle, slaughtering eachother on a day to day basis, raping, pilliaging, and plundering, to do this not only for their god, but for their own honour, and for the honour of the empire. The thing with it now is that there are people who have come beyond that point, even if others haven't.

Now days it is not acceptable in christian countries to burn 'heretics' at the steak as it was in the middle ages, the maori no longer practise cannibalism, and the Chinese no longer punish family members for dishonoring their father. It has to do with moving along with the rest of the world, and in this case, these particular policy makers have failed to do so.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 09:53
But torture still exists in various countries as a means of extracting evidence - even in the USA. Pillage, rape and plunder was going on in Yugoslavia a mere ten years ago. Religious violence continued to be a problem in Northern Ireland throughout the latter part of the 20th century, and even today it remains an issue.

You're right, many societies like the ones you mention have overcome barbarous aspects of their religions and culture. And that's to be recognised, of course it should. But others, far more 'civilised' that Pakistan and many less so, still continue to perpetrate crimes.

The world is less violent than it was even one hundred years ago. But although we've got better in many senses it's still not ideal. Slavery is no longer a highlighted issue, but racism and racist killings are. Religious zealotry is still a problem, particularly in the Middle East between all different kinds of religions. Homophobia, hatred of the disabled and bigotry are still common problems in many countries.

I'm not saying there's no hope for humanity. Perhaps one day we will be able to live without hate occurring between one human and another for a stupid reason. I just don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

nickless
01-09-08, 09:54
Sick.... it is truly a blessing to not live in that part of the world,

well i totaly agree.
this....this is....i dunno what to say.monsters?no-worse.
i respect different cultures,but that part of the culture i don't get.the total disrespect for women.
and 3 of them were teenagers?
..................

Goose
01-09-08, 09:56
Possibly there was, but that's a different situation. The murders of those children weren't committed to defend a cultural idea; it was the mental illness of the perpetrators and presumably their history that drove them to commit such a crime.

Anyway, let's not bring in serial killing of minors to the general mix of honour killings we already have in this discussion. :(

So if they had done it in the name of the lord it would'nt be as bad?

Murder is murder, no matter how you portray it. These women were innocent, like those children.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 09:58
So if they had done it in the name of the lord it would'nt be as bad?

Murder is murder, no matter how you portray it. These women were innocent, like those children.

It would certainly not have been better!

It's just that the two situations can't be compared because the people that did what they did, did not do it for the same reasons!

Don't think for a minute that I imagine one murder is any better than another!

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 10:07
I'm not saying there's no hope for humanity. Perhaps one day we will be able to live without hate occurring between one human and another for a stupid reason. I just don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

I'm glad to see you are far more optimistic than myself! :) its a tough job but its good to know somebody's up to it!

My hope for humanity died aloooong time ago unfortunately :(. I guess my point was before that yes while the US use torture as an extraction technique, and Holy war still goes strong in Northern Ireland and the Middle East, the people of the world dont condone it for the most part, like they would have done in Roman times or during the Crusades.

It is also a little sad that the men dont realise that they cant keep the women like this for much longer with the way that the rest of the world is progressing with womens rights. One day they might just go too far and then realise that unfortunately, without enough women, their entire culture will die out. Obviously the entire race wont die but possibly that one village, or province...its biological, men cant bear children, no children, no future, no more.

This thread is getting pretty deep!

Lemmie
01-09-08, 10:10
This thread is getting pretty deep!

Yes, I know! From my perspective, not a good way to start a Monday morning!:o

Goose
01-09-08, 10:10
I'm glad to see you are far more optimistic than myself! :) its a tough job but its good to know somebody's up to it!

My hope for humanity died aloooong time ago unfortunately :(. I guess my point was before that yes while the US use torture as an extraction technique, and Holy war still goes strong in Northern Ireland and the Middle East, the people of the world dont condone it for the most part, like they would have done in Roman times or during the Crusades.

It is also a little sad that the men dont realise that they cant keep the women like this for much longer with the way that the rest of the world is progressing with womens rights. One day they might just go too far and then realise that unfortunately, without enough women, their entire culture will die out. Obviously the entire race wont die but possibly that one village, or province...its biological, men cant bear children, no children, no future, no more.

This thread is getting pretty deep!

"Holy war still goes strong in Northern Ireland and the Middle East, the people of the world dont condone it for the most part, like they would have done in Roman times or during the Crusades."

But people do condone it, people look at northern ireland and say "the only problem there is the british army" They say the same about us in the Middle east, to most, if we leave these places alone everything will be nice and happy.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 10:12
They say the same about us in the Middle east, to most, if we leave these places alone everything will be nice and happy.

And that's the same problem with people who say that all Muslims want to repress their women and wreck holy war on infidels. Both statements are just not true.

Goose
01-09-08, 10:14
And that's the same problem with people who say that all Muslims want to repress their women and wreck holy war on infidels. Both statements are just not true.

Iv said a few times that not all muslims are wahabis or fundamentalists. But it doesnt change the fact that if we leave the middle east they will kill each other in the name of Sunni or shi'ite islam.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 10:18
Iv said a few times that not all muslims are wahabis or fundamentalists. But it doesnt change the fact that if we leave the middle east they will kill each other in the name of Sunni or shi'ite islam.

I didn't say that you think that all Muslims are fundamentalists.

I'm just saying that the two extremes of the argument ie "Muslims are all evil and should be controlled by us civilised Westerners or they will terrorise us." and "The problems in Iraq/Afghanistan and so on are the fault of the invading armies and so withdrawal will solve all the problems." are both equally false.

Goose
01-09-08, 10:20
I didn't say that you think that all Muslims are fundamentalists.

I'm just saying that the two extremes of the argument ie "Muslims are all evil and should be controlled by us civilised Westerners or they will terrorise us." and "The problems in Iraq/Afghanistan and so on are the fault of the invading armies and so withdrawal will solve all the problems." are both equally false.

Ahh, i see, but Oman, UAE, Turkey and many others seem to get on with things like we do without burning to many women or throwing homosexuals off cliffs. Its not difficult.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 10:22
Iv said a few times that not all muslims are wahabis or fundamentalists. But it doesnt change the fact that if we leave the middle east they will kill each other in the name of Sunni or shi'ite islam.

I'm gonna go out on a very long white ledge here, and say.....and hopefully this wont sound barbaric or offend anyone because I certainly dont mean it to be, but could it be possible that maybe that is what needs to happen *cowers in fear of being hated upon*?

Maybe if you do eliminate your opposition, and have control of what you believe to be your 'holy land' or whatever, it might bring a peace to that land, and everyone may live happily ever after....hopefully.

The only thing the rest of the world would have to worry about would be other countries invading....yeah.....it was a pretty big white ledge.....as I said.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 10:24
There are probably reasons for that such as the fact that Turkey has always been apart from the general Muslim community because of it's proximity to Europe. They've been influenced to a certain extent by modern European politics - and they're trying to join the EU.

If I were a cynic, I'd say that the UAE are trying to minimise honour killings, beheadings and so on to encourage Western investment. Not that these events would put some investors off by any means.

Maybe if you do eliminate your opposition, and have control of what you believe to be your 'holy land' or whatever, it might bring a peace to that land, and everyone may live happily ever after....hopefully.

But any culture that exterminates its opposition in order to reach a Golden Age of Enlightenment and Prosperity doesn't have a moral right to it.

After all, it's what Hitler was trying to achieve.

No need to cower though, lots of possible angles need to be looked at.

Goose
01-09-08, 10:25
I'm gonna go out on a very long white ledge here, and say.....and hopefully this wont sound barbaric or offend anyone because I certainly dont mean it to be, but could it be possible that maybe that is what needs to happen *cowers in fear of being hated upon*?

Maybe if you do eliminate your opposition, and have control of what you believe to be your 'holy land' or whatever, it might bring a peace to that land, and everyone may live happily ever after....hopefully.

The only thing the rest of the world would have to worry about would be other countries invading....yeah.....it was a pretty big white ledge.....as I said.

Yea but then Israel would own the middle east in a couple of years, if it wasnt for the UN they would own Egypt, Jorden and Syria along with Lebanon and Gaza today. Infact they could have twice over.

There are probably reasons for that such as the fact that Turkey has always been apart from the general Muslim community because of it's proximity to Europe. They've been influenced to a certain extent by modern European politics - and they're trying to join the EU.

If I were a cynic, I'd say that the UAE are trying to minimise honour killings, beheadings and so on to encourage Western investment. Not that these events would put some investors off by any means.

If they minimise it for a few decades then it will disapear, it must have happened in England at some point to get rid of it.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 10:27
Yea but then Israel would own the middle east in a couple of years, if it wasnt for the UN they would own Egypt, Jorden and Syria along with Lebanon and Gaza today. Infact they could have twice over.

True, but if it wasnt for the UN, if the Israeli's did own all that land, would it be better or worse? Like, there is no way for us to know unless it happens, but I cant help but wonder...

Lemmie
01-09-08, 10:30
Yea but then Israel would own the middle east in a couple of years, if it wasnt for the UN they would own Egypt, Jorden and Syria along with Lebanon and Gaza today. Infact they could have twice over.

They wouldn't have a right to any more than Israel, Palestine and Gaza. That's apparently all they claim. If they got it the international community would have to disallow any further gains they wanted.

If they minimise it for a few decades then it will disapear, it must have happened in England at some point to get rid of it.

It's still not the right way to deal with the problem.

EDIT: When I said 'minimise' it, I meant that the authorities don't condone or support it - but neither do they enact laws against it.

Goose
01-09-08, 10:37
They wouldn't have a right to any more than Israel, Palestine and Gaza. That's apparently all they claim. If they got it the international community would have to disallow any further gains they wanted.

They could have all they wanted if we left them to it like nefertiti was saying.

Yea in reality they already own what they should have. They dont want Palistine, back before the Caliphate Palistine was where it is today, except it was called Philistine.

Tthe Spirit
01-09-08, 10:44
This is so... yes, barabric is the perfect word...

Stupid people...

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 10:49
I wonder if the UN will step in, in this case....crimes agains humanity or something? They probably cant but it would be good to see if they could.

Goose
01-09-08, 10:58
I wonder if the UN will step in, in this case....crimes agains humanity or something? They probably cant but it would be good to see if they could.

Pakistan doesnt own the border regions where this thing is casual, in 2001-2 they actually made a full scale invasion against the tribes there as part of the Coalition effort in Afghanistan. But they were beaten, and ended up using American money to pay off the Taliban and other tribes and organisations there. Which is where the story of "America funded the Taliban" came from.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 11:07
Pakistan doesnt own the border regions where this thing is casual, in 2001-2 they actually made a full scale invasion against the tribes there as part of the Coalition effort in Afghanistan. But they were beaten, and ended up using American money to pay off the Taliban and other tribes and organisations there. Which is where the story of "America funded the Taliban" came from.


Oh true! Your a wealth of knowledge now arent you! :) What do they feed you kids in the UK!

I dno...maybe there needs to be like...5 laws that apply to the world regardless of culture, governance, military power and what not...like murder is justifiable only where self defence can be proven beyond reasonable doubt. It could be punished in a way that would be most feared by that culture or something, like in Australia you'd just have to say do it and we'll kill ya and nobody would want to roll that dice, but maybe for cultures where it is seen as a good thing for their honour or something to have done what they did, force them to do something that causes them to then dishonour their god themselves, they'd suffer the same way their vic did, but just in a different way, possible worse. Use peoples beliefs against them (actually that sounds really cruel reading it back...but it might work on some level I guess)

Goose
01-09-08, 11:12
Oh true! Your a wealth of knowledge now arent you! :) What do they feed you kids in the UK!

I dno...maybe there needs to be like...5 laws that apply to the world regardless of culture, governance, military power and what not...like murder is justifiable only where self defence can be proven beyond reasonable doubt. It could be punished in a way that would be most feared by that culture or something, like in Australia you'd just have to say do it and we'll kill ya and nobody would want to roll that dice, but maybe for cultures where it is seen as a good thing for their honour or something to have done what they did, force them to do something that causes them to then dishonour their god themselves, they'd suffer the same way their vic did, but just in a different way, possible worse. Use peoples beliefs against them (actually that sounds really cruel reading it back...but it might work on some level I guess)

I dont know much at all, its just current affairs i suppose.

I do believe that having an over all set of rules would help, but we have that in the EU to a degree. Not everyone wants that, which is the problem.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 11:17
I dont know much at all, its just current affairs i suppose.

I do believe that having an over all set of rules would help, but we have that in the EU to a degree. Not everyone wants that, which is the problem.

We dont get great current affairs coverage here, half the stories in my RSS from news.com.au are about some dumb poptart is on drugs lol:rolleyes:.

Then again, not everyone wants the guy that ends up being PM but they have to take it if their the minority. Put it to a vote of the UN reps. Id love to be able to say put it to a vote of everyone in the world but in light of what this thread is about that clearly wouldnt work :(

remote91
01-09-08, 11:38
That truly is awful. Hopefully the men that did this will die in an even worse way and will go on to spend the rest of the afterlife in hell.

TRfan23
01-09-08, 11:43
So the Pakistan tradition still goes on? I can't believe people are even like this to one another :mad:
It's sick, just like I recall someone else on another thread about 2 months ago saying. "We are one race, the Human Race" It's like people hate their own race\species!

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 11:48
So the Pakistan tradition still goes on? I can't believe people are even like this to one another :mad:
It's sick, just like I recall someone else on another thread about 2 months ago saying. "We are one race, the Human Race" It's like people hate their own race\species!

Its so disturbing isnt it!

I mean other species of animals kill their own in the name of continuing their seed, for territory, and they have just as complex a social structure as we do, but still humans think that they are so much better and more civilized than all other animals. This clearly just continues to prove that we are not.

Elysia
01-09-08, 12:09
So the Pakistan tradition still goes on?
I do think it is important to say that, whilst this is indeed appalling and should never have happened, it's not a 'Pakistani tradition'. It is something that has happened in a small tribe, not the middle of Karachi, and I would imagine that there are just as many Pakistanis as appalled by this as we are. Saying this is a Pakistani tradition is rather like saying wife beating once you come home from the pub is a British tradition - it happens (far more than it should), but it is a small minority that do it.

Drone
01-09-08, 12:43
So the Pakistan tradition still goes on? I can't believe people are even like this to one another :mad:

it's just a bunch of sick people. Neither of 3 monotheistic religions have such a stupid tradition.

TRfan23
01-09-08, 12:46
it's just a bunch of sick people. Neither of 3 monotheistic religions have such a stupid tradition.

Ah so the religions have nothing to do with these sick things?
I thought they were, it looks like they use religion as an excuss for this though! :mad:

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 12:50
I thought they were, it looks like they use religion as an excuss for this though! :mad:

It really wouldnt surprise me, I mean, people use religion as an excuse for lots of things, a day off work here and there, getting out of something that could in some arse about way be seen to conflict with their religion, its just usually theyre small insignificant things....not something as brutal as taking the life of an innocent human being...or 5.

And like it has been said before, not all muslims are like this, its just a bad few tarnishing the reputation of the masses. It makes me quite sad in that sense too.

Drone
01-09-08, 12:50
Ah so the religions have nothing to do with these sick things?
I thought they were, it looks like they use religion as an excuss for this though! :mad:

nope. religion had nothing to do with that. maybe they invented this stupid tradition and said that it's their religion and people who didn't know believed that.

Drone
01-09-08, 12:53
And like it has been said before, not all muslims are like this, its just a bad few tarnishing the reputation of the masses. It makes me quite sad in that sense too.

it has nothing to do with Islam. According to Islam woman can get married (if she wants) after her hasband died. Woman is not the thing. She is free to decide

Goose
01-09-08, 12:58
nope. religion had nothing to do with that. maybe they invented this stupid tradition and said that it's their religion and people who didn't know believed that.

This is partly about religion, its part of there kismat, females are born inferior and under males control, they have 'brains half the size of men', they take it very seriously, in court, if a woman wants to testify, she needs to bring another witness with her, as only two women can match the testimony of one man. Which is why its such an offence to go against them.

Drone
01-09-08, 13:00
This is partly about religion, its part of there kismat, females are born inferior and under males control......

it's not an actual religion. it's a cult. There are cultists in any religon and they do horrible things

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 13:02
it has nothing to do with Islam. According to Islam woman can get married (if she wants) after her hasband died. Woman is not the thing. She is free to decide

Yeah but to the best of my knowledge she cannot decide to whom she is remarried, which was the issue here.

And besides these were mostly young women, and it would have been, I'm assuming, their first marriage.

But still I highly doubt religion really was the driver here. More likely money, since although it is technically illegal, middle eastern countries still offer a dowry along with a daughters hand in marriage, so if someone isn't going to end up getting the money/land/livestock/etc. they were promised when the girl was 3 years old, they're not going to be happy, plus it makes the family look untrustworthy and unable to keep their word.

I still think its sad they are using religion/cultural tradition as an excuse to do such a vicious thing.

Goose
01-09-08, 13:03
it's not an actual religion. it's a cult. There are cultists in any religon and they do horrible things

Its actually a part of Islam not just tribal traditions, which is why men may practice polygamy, women may not, men may wear what they like, women may not, men may 'lightly beat' there wives, women may not beat there husbands.

Ever heard of 72 virgin boys waiting to serve female martyrs in heaven? Of course not, women are made to serve men. Even christians believed that a few hundred years ago. The men who did it didnt think of Allah as they did, but thats there excuse, and they always have a quote to back it up.

Its just that these places need to embrace technology and social advancement like other muslim nations have, otherwise they should be prepared for some form of retribution for actions like this.

TRfan23
01-09-08, 13:05
it's not an actual religion. it's a cult. There are cultists in any religon and they do horrible things

Ah you posted it for me ;)

Anything that involves Murder, and abuse etc. That involves a large crowd, and they say it's a religion.

It's a cult!

rowanlim
01-09-08, 13:06
That's just so cruel. People need to understand that times have changed, what worked then no longer works now.

Andariel
01-09-08, 13:17
That's so terrible. I feel so sorry for them. Fanatics like this really are going too far.

Goose
01-09-08, 13:20
That's so terrible. I feel so sorry for them. Fanatics like this really are going too far.

It would be interesting to take a look at crime rates in those regions though. Would there be any? Would there be more?

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 13:24
It would be interesting to take a look at crime rates in those regions though. Would there be any? Would there be more?

Would they even be classed as crimes to them?

Goose
01-09-08, 13:28
Would they even be classed as crimes to them?

Yea i guess there idea of crime is different from ours. I guess there whole life-style is, thats why they managed to fight off the Pakistani army. They want to stay as they are.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 13:35
Yea i guess there idea of crime is different from ours. I guess there whole life-style is, thats why they managed to fight off the Pakistani army. They want to stay as they are.

True, but unfortunately one day they will have to come to the sad realisation that we dont always get what we want. To quote Bob Dylan: the times they are a changin'... wont happen in my lifetime but what goes around comes around.

Shrantellatessa
01-09-08, 13:37
Before someone starts, PLEASE know that this is NOT Islam and has NOTHING to do with it, thanks.

Goose
01-09-08, 13:52
Before someone starts, PLEASE know that this is NOT Islam and has NOTHING to do with it, thanks.

Out of interest, what are pakistani tribal traditions based on?

And why did the man in this other story who killed his daughter for falling in love with a christian not give her a burial:

"Her shrouded corpse was then tossed into a makeshift grave without ceremony as her uncles spat on it in disgust."

"'Death was the least she deserved,' said Abdel-Qader. 'I don't regret it. I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,' he said."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights

It seems to be religious, but a warped interpritation of it, one that belongs hundreds of years ago.

Lara Croft!
01-09-08, 13:57
Feminist movements need to start moving fast there... How sad and outrageous.

Goose
01-09-08, 13:59
Feminist movements need to start moving fast there... How sad and outrageous.

I say its up to the pakistani government to stop acting like they dont own these regions, and get a military and police presence there. There country is effectivly disowning them.

Shrantellatessa
01-09-08, 14:03
Out of interest, what are pakistani tribal traditions based on?

And why did the man in this other story who killed his daughter for falling in love with a christian not give her a burial:

"Her shrouded corpse was then tossed into a makeshift grave without ceremony as her uncles spat on it in disgust."

"'Death was the least she deserved,' said Abdel-Qader. 'I don't regret it. I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,' he said."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights

It seems to be religious, but a warped interpritation of it, one that belongs hundreds of years ago.

I'm a Muslim girl, and I know, by Quran and Prophet Muhammed teachings and common sense, that God gave me the right to choose my husband, and my consent is needed to get married. And if this is not respected, it is because some people think they have the right to oblige to marry whom they want; it means that they have a problem, NOT Islam.

There are rules, but people either respect them or not, and the same goes with Islamic rules.

Ciao :wve:

dcw123
01-09-08, 14:10
I know its 'dis-honest' to those families, coz thats what they believe...
BUT that doesn't make it right:(
Being buried alive is possibly the worst thing to ever happen to anyone...:mad:

Goose
01-09-08, 14:32
I'm a Muslim girl, and I know, by Quran and Prophet Muhammed teachings and common sense, that God gave me the right to choose my husband, and my consent is needed to get married. And if this is not respected, it is because some people think they have the right to oblige to marry whom they want; it means that they have a problem, NOT Islam.

There are rules, but people either respect them or not, and the same goes with Islamic rules.

Ciao :wve:

Its a tough concept to make sense of, look a suicide bombings in Iraq against muslims by other muslims, they claim there doing it in the name of Islam, does that not make it Islamic extremsim? Its based on there religous principles, even if there misunderstood.

I mean those Mormons in Texas who molestered girls were christians and did it through a form of christianity, so its linked to that religion, the same as the dad i mentioned before, like he said 'what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,'.

violentblossom
01-09-08, 14:34
Its a tough concept, look a suicide bombings in Iraq against muslims by other muslims, they claim there doing it in the name of Islam, does that not make it Islamic extremsim, its based on there religous principles.

I mean those Mormons in Texas who molestered girls were christians and did it through a form of christianity, the same as the dad i mentioned before, like he said what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,'.

if you are NOT a part of that religion, then you can't speak for it. Shantellaressa is, and obviously knows what she's talking about.

don't rope in a whole religion with a few bad seeds.

Lenochka
01-09-08, 14:35
Thats disgusting...
Though its no surprise, some people in this world don't know how to get with the times and let go of there crazy ass traditions.

Goose
01-09-08, 14:36
if you are NOT a part of that religion, then you can't speak for it. Shantellaressa is, and obviously knows what she's talking about.

don't rope in a whole religion with a few bad seeds.

I oppologise if im offending anyone, it seemed like somthing worth debating. Ill leave it at that.

violentblossom
01-09-08, 14:51
I oppologise if im offending anyone, it seemed like somthing worth debating. Ill leave it at that.

it is something worth debating, definately.

i think that alot of people use religions as excuses, and are not actually following any kind of religious sect. take for instance, cult leaders who say it is okay to rape young girls in the name of God. well, anyone who knows anything about Christianity or Catholism knows that's b.s.. just a sick excuse that is used to blindside clueless and lost people.

i'm not offended, just wary of arguments.

Goose
01-09-08, 15:01
it is something worth debating, definately.

i think that alot of people use religions as excuses, and are not actually following any kind of religious sect. take for instance, cult leaders who say it is okay to rape young girls in the name of God. well, anyone who knows anything about Christianity or Catholism knows that's b.s.. just a sick excuse that is used to blindside clueless and lost people.

i'm not offended, just wary of arguments.

Thats what i ment by tough concept, for me anyway. Because Catholic priests who have molesterd young boys, they have been ordained, so they must be christian, they give service. So it is a crime that is heavly involved with christianity, the same as those mormons.

To say there it has nothing to to with christianity, as much as i would like to believe that, doesnt fit well with the stories.

I suppose its easy to get into arguments about religion if your not carefull, your right. Its tough to see someones posture or attitude over the internet!

Melonie Tomb Raider
01-09-08, 16:04
:eek: This is terrible! :(

Shrantellatessa
01-09-08, 16:57
if you are NOT a part of that religion, then you can't speak for it. Shantellaressa is, and obviously knows what she's talking about.

don't rope in a whole religion with a few bad seeds.

Thank you :hug:

I oppologise if im offending anyone, it seemed like somthing worth debating. Ill leave it at that.

Same here.

badboy70
01-09-08, 17:11
And the point of burying them alive is ... ?

I hope they'll soon realist there's no point in doing that.

interstellardave
01-09-08, 17:24
The other outrageous part of this, besides the killings themselves, is that a Pakistani official stood up in Parliament and defended it--even ridiculing those who tried to make an issue of it!

That makes this an institutional problem, not just the fault of a "few crazies" or whatever we want to call them. If they get away with this then it's the entire nation of Pakistan that has failed.

violentblossom
01-09-08, 17:42
The other outrageous part of this, besides the killings themselves, is that a Pakistani official stood up in Parliament and defended it--even ridiculing those who tried to make an issue of it!

That makes this an institutional problem, not just the fault of a "few crazies" or whatever we want to call them. If they get away with this then it's the entire nation of Pakistan that has failed.

yes.

it really saddens me to hear about how women are still treated like dirt in so many places.. i know these men have mothers. do they not respect them, eiether?

screw bad traditions. it was once tradition to ride horses everywhere, but we now have cars. it was once tradition to hunt and farm for all our food needs, and now we have stores. i see that these new things have been adapted over there, why not women's rights?? chauvenism at its best with these bad seeds on yonder.

it makes me sad that there are not enough people standing up for those things over there. i really thought Benazir Bhutto was going to change everything.

Goose
01-09-08, 17:55
yes.

it really saddens me to hear about how women are still treated like dirt in so many places.. i know these men have mothers. do they not respect them, eiether?

screw bad traditions. it was once tradition to ride horses everywhere, but we now have cars. it was once tradition to hunt and farm for all our food needs, and now we have stores. i see that these new things have been adapted over there, why not women's rights?? chauvenism at its best with these bad seeds on yonder.

it makes me sad that there are not enough people standing up for those things over there. i really thought Benazir Bhutto was going to change everything.

Oddly enough, people were saying that she was murdered by an American Death ray that blew up her car: http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/pakistan_bhutto_ppp_laser_killed_bhutto.htm

violentblossom
01-09-08, 18:10
Oddly enough, people were saying that she was murdered by an American Death ray that blew up her car: http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/pakistan_bhutto_ppp_laser_killed_bhutto.htm

why on earth would America want her dead? Pakistan's leader CLEARLY didn't like her. when interviewed about her death, he basically said she had it coming.

i watched the video, so i don't believe this. she was clearly shot, with a gun held by hand in the crowd..

RIP.

i will look at this link anyway, though.

EDIT: of course a Pakistani journalist would say this. it is clearly propaganda to draw attention away from the Pakistani government.

Lara's home
01-09-08, 18:11
I'm disgusted.

Goose
01-09-08, 18:17
why on earth would America want her dead? Pakistan's leader CLEARLY didn't like her. when interviewed about her death, he basically said she had it coming.

i watched the video, so i don't believe this. she was clearly shot, with a gun held by hand in the crowd..

RIP.

i will look at this link anyway, though.

EDIT: of course a Pakistani journalist would say this. it is clearly propaganda to draw attention away from the Pakistani government.

Yea, but her vehicle did explode, was she shot aswell?

violentblossom
01-09-08, 18:23
Yea, but her vehicle did explode, was she shot aswell?

no, her vehicle did not explode, i believe a nearby bus did shortly after she was shot.

the gunshot and a piece of shrapnel going through her neck were the said causes of death.

here is the video that shows what happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4NTABbKXSM&feature=related

Goose
01-09-08, 18:30
no, her vehicle did not explode, i believe a nearby bus did shortly after she was shot.

the gunshot and a piece of shrapnel going through her neck were the said causes of death.

here is the video that shows what happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4NTABbKXSM&feature=related

Thanks for that, how can that lead anyone to think it was a death laser!? I dont think anyone even has one?

Very Sad though, she could have bought alot of change. RIP.

TRhalloween
01-09-08, 18:33
This is the first time I've heard of this. It's really disgusting.

violentblossom
01-09-08, 18:35
Thanks for that, how can that lead anyone to think it was a death laser!? I dont think anyone even has one?

Very Sad though, she could have bought alot of change. RIP.

you're welcome :).

and that's what made me laugh, lol, what on EARTH is a death laser, exactly??

i totally think Pakistan's president was behind it. the things he said about it were completely remorseless, and really suspicious.

she was another woman who wanted change, like the girls this thread is about, and that brought her alot of enemies. she was, in my opinion, Pakistan's Martin Luther King Jr.

the world.. is in a sad state. i only wish more could be done about it.

xxitsxnadyaxx
01-09-08, 18:36
yes, i am incredibly grateful to live in the country i do. America is by no means perfect, but at least i am allowed to state my opinions and such as i please.

those poor women.

i hope the men who did this can't sleep at night, though, if this is common practice, they unfortunately probably will be able to.

ditto O_O

Little-Lara
01-09-08, 18:36
That's 'male dominant' societies for ya! They'll pay ANY price to have males get what & who they want.

And they laugh at the word barbarianism, and they'll twist words on any religious text to suit their own personal needs.

silver_wolf
01-09-08, 19:52
That's 'male dominant' societies for ya! They'll pay ANY price to have males get what & who they want.

And they laugh at the word barbarianism, and they'll twist words on any religious text to suit their own personal needs.
here we go. let's not go blaming every male on earth for one culture's twisted traditions. thank god for civilization, though.

Little-Lara
01-09-08, 20:43
here we go. let's not go blaming every male on earth for one culture's twisted traditions. thank god for civilization, though.

OH no no. Of course I'm not blaming every male. :confused: I'm sorry you got that impression, that's not what i meant AT ALL.

I quoted "male dominant" societies to specify ONLY those societies. :o

violentblossom
01-09-08, 20:50
OH no no. Of course I'm not blaming every male. :confused: I'm sorry you got that impression, that's not what i meant AT ALL.

I quoted "male dominant" societies to specify ONLY those societies. :o

i know what you meant. :tmb:

Little-Lara
01-09-08, 20:58
i know what you meant. :tmb:

Thanks so much. :hug: I hope no one here has to fear of their words being misinterpreted. :o

Mad Tony
01-09-08, 21:15
Aren't most societies male dominant though? :confused:
Unless of course we both have a different defintion of what a male dominant society is. To me, a male dominant society is one where most of the top positions are held by males.

Geck-o-Lizard
01-09-08, 21:23
Wikipedia has a pretty good article on matriarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy) (female-dominant society)

jackles
01-09-08, 21:29
Wikipedia has a pretty good article on matriarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy) (female-dominant society)


Slightly off topic..I did a course some years ago with a professor who worked at the British Museum and she firmly believed that most pre historic societies were matriarchal and it was only when men realised the part he had to play in conception that the roles were reversed and women were 'put in place' so as to speak.


on topic...yes such things are offensive to the 'modern' world and in some feudal societies things still carry on as if we are in the dark ages. Honour killing exists today within the uk. So do girls having arranged marriages.

Little-Lara
01-09-08, 21:36
Aren't most societies male dominant though? :confused:
Unless of course we both have a different defintion of what a male dominant society is. To me, a male dominant society is one where most of the top positions are held by males.

:o I have a lot of faith in your idea of a male dominant society. To me, a male dominant society is one that punishes and hits and maims women who want the basic simple things to live their lives and raise their kids.


You have brought up a very interesting point Tony. And to some parts of the world, your idea of 'male dominance' is paradise. I could go on, but it would go nowhere.

violentblossom
01-09-08, 21:37
Aren't most societies male dominant though? :confused:
Unless of course we both have a different defintion of what a male dominant society is. To me, a male dominant society is one where most of the top positions are held by males.

agreed.

were talking about Pakistan.

what is "honour killing", Jackles?

Geck-o-Lizard
01-09-08, 21:39
Slightly off topic..I did a course some years ago with a professor who worked at the British Museum and she firmly believed that most pre historic societies were matriarchal and it was only when men realised the part he had to play in conception that the roles were reversed and women were 'put in place' so as to speak.

Yes, that's what I believe too. :)

The dominant sex has a lot to do with the society's main religion. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are extremely male oriented because when these religions were created, societies were generally tribal/nomadic and their survival relied on men who were able to fight to protect the tribe. Women couldn't fight if they were put against another tribe's warriors, so they existed to produce sons who would protect the tribe in the future, to produce daughters who would produce more sons, and to look after all the tedium of living so the men could go out and hit each other with sticks. Now we've grown up but we haven't yet dropped this men-are-better-because-they're-stronger attitude.

Older and less war-oriented religions such as Pagan religions put greater emphasis on women because of their ability to give birth. In societies that weren't constantly under threat of being attacked by other tribes, being a good warrior wouldn't have been as important as producing new life to replenish the tribe. And of course at that time, it seems that guys weren't aware they had a part in making babies. :p

Mad Tony
01-09-08, 21:42
:o I have a lot of faith in your idea of a male dominant society. To me, a male dominant society is one that punishes and hits and maims women who want the basic simple things to live their lives and raise their kids.


You have brought up a very interesting point Tony. And to some parts of the world, your idea of 'male dominance' is paradise. I could go on, but it would go nowhere.I would call them extreme or strict male dominant societies, which aren't good at all.

jackles
01-09-08, 21:45
agreed.

were talking about Pakistan.

what is "honour killing", Jackles?

A killing done often by family members to protect the honour of their family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonour_2.shtml


When such things are investigated it is often hard for 'westerners' to understand because we are brought up to expect a certain freedom. In the uk it can be harder for children who have to walk both paths so as to speak...the 'at school/work western' path and the 'at home/family traditional ' path.


Re: Matriarchy It was farming societies that made the link. Prior to that children were children of the mother. It was only when farmers realised the need to have male and female animals that things changed.

Mad Tony
01-09-08, 21:46
I can't believe it's even accepted in some cultures to just murder people like that.

Geck-o-Lizard
01-09-08, 21:49
On the other hand, I wonder which of our practises they might see as barbaric or outrageous, that we take for granted...

Lemmie
01-09-08, 21:49
If we're talking about the roles which men and women played in religions, and how of course that has shaped society, it's important to note that many of the cults and pagan religions included a lot of bloody human sacrifice, ritual mutilation and so forth.

A good balance would have been Saxon Christianity. Before the Norman conquest, women had a much better sense of equality than we've seen until the last few centuries. They could own property, inherit lands and titles, maintain estates and divorce their husbands. Of course, equality only really meant anything if you were wealthy. If you were poor then you were a landlord's (or landlady's) property anyway.

What's weird is that with the amount of strong female leaders that the British Isles has produced, equality for women was still relatively slow in coming. But then I suppose they were royalty, and considered themselves closer to God than humanity.

silver_wolf
01-09-08, 21:49
OH no no. Of course I'm not blaming every male. :confused: I'm sorry you got that impression, that's not what i meant AT ALL.

I quoted "male dominant" societies to specify ONLY those societies. :o
ok. my mistake.:)

Little-Lara
01-09-08, 21:50
Such nice words Gecko, enough to fill any soul with hope.

Fair enough Tony, "extreme strict male dominant" will be the term.

How sad it this: were sitting here trying to figure out the correct terms while innocent teenagers are dying cause they tried to avoid being forcefully married to some creepy old men. :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

violentblossom
01-09-08, 21:52
agreed.

were talking about Pakistan.

what is "honour killing", Jackles?

A killing done often by family members to protect the honour of their family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonour_2.shtml


When such things are investigated it is often hard for 'westerners' to understand because we are brought up to expect a certain freedom. In the uk it can be harder for children who have to walk both paths so as to speak...the 'at school/work western' path and the 'at home/family traditional ' path.




WOW. i can't believe i hadn't heard of that yet... i'm not all that suprised, though.

terribly sad. i can see why people from those cultures would be afraid of missteps.

Geck-o-Lizard
01-09-08, 21:53
If we're talking about the roles which men and women played in religions, and how of course that has shaped society, it's important to note that many of the cults and pagan religions included a lot of bloody human sacrifice, ritual mutilation and so forth.

Many of these things were carried into the patriarchal modern religions, then removed from general practice when people stopped finding them useful. Leviticus is a whole section of the Bible dedicated to making sure you know how to do your sacrifices properly. :whi:

The ritual mutilation is continued today in many religions in the form of male and female circumcision too.

violentblossom
01-09-08, 21:54
On the other hand, I wonder which of our practises they might see as barbaric or outrageous, that we take for granted...

our eating cows for instance, and our dress.

i can't see these people playing Tomb Raider... "a woman who dresses sexy and kills men?! EGAD!"

Lemmie
01-09-08, 21:55
Many of these things were carried into the patriarchal modern religions, then removed from general practice when people stopped finding them useful. Leviticus is a whole section of the Bible dedicated to making sure you know how to do your sacrifices properly. :whi:

The ritual mutilation is continued today in many religions in the form of circumcision too.

Oh yes that's true.

Well, Christianity didn't ever practice much human sacrifice. Castration was more their area.

Geck-o-Lizard
01-09-08, 21:58
Also, matriarchal religions tend to worship nature and natural gods; patriarchal religions tend to worship humans and gods that take the form of men. Not as a rule, just an observation.

jackles
01-09-08, 21:58
Castration wasn't a part of Christainity but it was part of a godess worship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele


In fact thats why Christians arent circumcised. It was meant to have more universal appeal to those who wished to convert.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 22:02
Castration wasn't a part of Christainity but it was part of a godess worship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele


Yes, it originated among the cult of Cybele from the near East.

However, Christian choir boys in Italy were castrated to preserve their high voices, so beautiful in church choirs. It spread to France and Germany, and by the time of the 17th century, castrati were used in opera as female characters.

The last castrato died in the Vatican in 1922.

jackles
01-09-08, 22:06
I think you will find it was just to maintain their voices and coincidental that they were christian. I take your point that they were used in choirs but this was a regional thing effectively. Not a full blown 'every choir boy must have it done'.

Lemmie
01-09-08, 22:07
I think you will find it was just to maintain their voices and coincidental that they were christian.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. But it was done by the church in order to have beautiful choirs.

Anyway, that's not the issue.

How strange that this topic can so easily be side-tracked.

Little-Lara
01-09-08, 22:09
I think you will find it was just to maintain their voices and coincidental that they were christian. I take your point that they were used in choirs but this was a regional thing effectively. Not a full blown 'every choir boy must have it done'.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. But it was done by the church in order to have beautiful choirs.

...

Wow, :eek: we learn so much here.

jackles
01-09-08, 22:11
Too many topics to talk about. :)


back on track....


I think fear breeds this sort of fanaticism.. for instance the fear that the modern world will corrupt. Especially as in some cultures women are represented as being tthe 'more dangerous' of the species.

Nefertiti_89
01-09-08, 23:58
But they are only the more dangerous through the eyes of men (which i guess can be true I mean look at what AnnE Boyeln made Henry the VIII do)

But they can only hold out the modern world for so long, especially if its just one bunch of nutbags and a barbaric politician (which hopefully thats all it is).
I mean if they wanna kick it old school, fine, but they need to be made to realise that it is not the dominant custom of the country anymore, and therefore they will be bought to justice in line with the new dominant customs of the country. Those other politicians need to wake up and see that that guy is ONE guy and there's probably at least 50 of them, and that there is power in numbers so they need to use it, even if force is necessary. Once the nutters in that village see it will not be tolerated, and even those in high places are not exempt from new custom law, they might get the message.

Dark Lugia 2
02-09-08, 00:08
Urgh, this is disgusting. i think it isnt due to religion, but cruel and barbaric traditions, y'know - men more important type. I feel sorry for everyone whos subjected to this =(

Edit: Right on Shrantell and violentblossom :D

thecentaur
02-09-08, 00:39
this is outrageous! :cen: why on earth would any human being do that to another human? that's just cruel and heartless to say the least!

...

violentblossom
02-09-08, 00:42
Urgh, this is disgusting. i think it isnt due to religion, but cruel and barbaric traditions, y'know - men more important type. I feel sorry for everyone whos subjected to this =(

Edit: Right on Shrantell and violentblossom :D

:hug:

Little-Lara
02-09-08, 01:14
Urgh, this is disgusting. i think it isnt due to religion, but cruel and barbaric traditions, y'know - men more important type. I feel sorry for everyone whos subjected to this =(

....

Yup, that's true, it was on the news. Its some tribes people supposedly who did this, I guess independent from everyone else. :confused: Not sure 100% though.

Goose
02-09-08, 06:34
Yup, that's true, it was on the news. Its some tribes people supposedly who did this, I guess independent from everyone else. :confused: Not sure 100% though.

Yes they are independant, they have PT, political territory and TT, which is Tribal Territory, these are the same people who are fighting in Afghanistan against the coalition forces, and they are also the people who invaded afghanistan around 1994 and forced Taliban rule over the country.

Its a very serious problem, Pakistan isnt strong enough to deal with it, and refuses to let the West deal with it, so were left at a stale-mate with these regions. As long as they exist there will be war in Afghanistan, and the Taliban will have a place to hide everytime we beat them to within an inch of there life.