View Full Version : Attention CD: NEW ENGINE!!
silver_wolf
26-11-08, 23:06
Hi CD, I don't know if you remember this, but a while before TRU came out you mentioned something called a "completely new engine". What happened? Don't get me wrong, I loved TRU...for what it was. And by that I mean I loved it because I think it's the best TR game possible with the Legend engine. But, guys, seriously. You need to step it up. Make a new engine. The old "ledge-hopping" isn't going to fly for very long, even if it is interspersed with "free-climbing" and such. Again, you did a very good job on TRU with what you had, but now you need something different. Some areas you should focus on with a new engine:
1. Platforming
The ledge-hopping is a past-gen mechanic. TRA managed to get away with it, but it really shouldn't have been in TRU. Should you make a new engine (and you should), replace the ledge-hopping with true free-climbing (if you can; I don't know the whole legality of that stuff). Not only would it make platforming a lot more fun, it would offer much more interesting and better level design. For example, you could have Lara outside a huge ancient temple. The only way in is through an opening in the roof. With free-climbing, players could use the natural architecture and decay of the temple to navigate it. But there should also be lots of little side openings in the temple to explore. Also, implement nature in moving around. Someone here came up with a cool drawing for a tree in a level and detailed how it could be climbed,i.e, branches replacing the convenient swing-pole. And if you're worried about people getting stuck, here's a simple solution: besides the optional hints and player tailoring (which were great), players could press a button that would direct their attention towards the correct path, by a simple turn of Lara's head and focus of the camera.
2. Combat
Really, now. After the first two games getting docked for bad combat, why did it show up in TRU? Granted, it worked ok with the non-human enemies, but combat sucked against humans. Completely re-work it. Either use the same mechanics as Uncharted and Gears of War, or make something original. But don't amke it full of human enemies again, at least have it evenly balanced, if not then make them mostly non-human. Also, spend more time on melee attacks. Really develop it into a full hand-to-hand combat system with combos and stuff, so we can get Lara into some cool fisticuffs. And when it comes to bosses, it'd be nice to have one or two. Just don't restrict us in an arena. The end part of TRU was great, just let us do some fighting with all that climbing.
3. Level Design/Atmosphere
You did great with this in TRU, now expand on it. Make the levels bigger and even more open, with more paths to choose from. Don't be afraid to make the player afraid; let loose with the puzzles and traps. Make puzzles not only huge, but complex and clever. Make traps really devious; blend them into the environment so the player is forced to make a split-second decision that could mean life or death. And bring back some of the old traps as well as the new ones. Collapsing floors, rolling boulders, spike walls and ceilings. Also, make adrenaline moments optional. Let us turn them off to get the full effect.
Tomb_of_Darkns
26-11-08, 23:20
AGREED!! 1000000000% thats what we (well mostly all of us here at TRF) want...or need. lol but i agree we need a new engine.
i think quasi said something about using real-time physics for EVERYTHING. she said that if we throw a grenade at a building, the buildings walls should blow up along with it. that is what i love, also it can give us more paths to choose from.
anyways great post :tmb:
i think free-climbing doen't really work for tomb raider. for example look at assasins creed. it is just to easy to get somewhere(or they have to use it in another way)
i agree with some of what i read,.. except for the ledges one... people should realize that ledges DO exist... and they exist even if we (most of you but not me) dont like them. crystals shouldnt take the ledges out of the game just because to some players it just doesnt feel right. on the contrary, if it doesnt feel right in order to keep everyone happy they should implement other movements instead. if lara manage to get a higher ammount of moves, ledge jumping wouldnt be so frecuent, and the platforming would feel much more varied...
but please crystal... dont take any more moves out. keep working on new ones instead.
Xian Priestess
26-11-08, 23:32
What a fantastic post. May I sign your petition to CD, Silver Wolf? I agree with everything you've said, and I've been 'raiding' since 1996. I especially like the free-climbing possibilities you mention - that would be great. The first thing we all do when we load up a new TR game is look up and around for somewhere to climb. Usually an obvious ledge sticks out. It would be great if we had to explore every little chink or crag to see if she could use it. I can imagine that this alone would add a couple of hours to a game.
As for combat, I think that the old classic had just the right blend of adventure/fighting. And I never thought I'd actually miss combat, but in TRU I did. Getting past the baddies - whether human or animal/mythical - was an essential part of the game for me. I don't want enemies around every corner and after every trap, but I do want some - and I want them to leap out at me unexpectedly to scare the heck out of me. (Anyone remember that Dino Crisis game? There was a fantastic moment in that when the T Rex broke through the window) Lara should have lots of combos to defeat different types of enemies - I'm sure it couldn't be hard to do if the engine is changed.
And although I never thought I'd say it, I actually enjoyed the big four bosses in TRA. I don't simply want a shoot-em-up type of boss; rather, a strategy to defeat them (like the Centaurs in TRA) or Natla at the end of TRU. That way, we are using our brains as well as our fingers.
As for puzzles - Love taking ages to figure these out. I agree with Silver Wolf again here - make them even more complex. Make us scratch our heads for ages. OK, so we fit four things into four slots - but then add another dimension - perhaps a cryptic message that she has to decipher or something.
Not being very technically minded, I wonder if the player tailoring could make puzzles actually harder or easier? Not sure if this is possible, but it would be an added bonus for me.
silver_wolf
26-11-08, 23:40
i agree with some of what i read,.. except for the ledges one... people should realize that ledges DO exist... and they exist even if we (most of you but not me) dont like them. crystals shouldnt take the ledges out of the game just because to some players it just doesnt feel right. on the contrary, if it doesnt feel right in order to keep everyone happy they should implement other movements instead. if lara manage to get a higher ammount of moves, ledge jumping wouldnt be so frecuent, and the platforming would feel much more varied...
but please crystal... dont take any more moves out. keep working on new ones instead.
yeah, you're probably right about the ledges. But CD should find a way to use them so that the levels don't feel so restricted, and again, implement them so they don't look out of place.
NateBrooks
26-11-08, 23:41
Hi CD, I don't know if you remember this, but a while before TRU came out you mentioned something called a "completely new engine". What happened? Don't get me wrong, I loved TRU...for what it was. And by that I mean I loved it because I think it's the best TR game possible with the Legend engine. But, guys, seriously. You need to step it up. Make a new engine. The old "ledge-hopping" isn't going to fly for very long, even if it is interspersed with "free-climbing" and such. Again, you did a very good job on TRU with what you had, but now you need something different. Some areas you should focus on with a new engine:
1. Platforming
The ledge-hopping is a past-gen mechanic. TRA managed to get away with it, but it really shouldn't have been in TRU. Should you make a new engine (and you should), replace the ledge-hopping with true free-climbing (if you can; I don't know the whole legality of that stuff). Not only would it make platforming a lot more fun, it would offer much more interesting and better level design. For example, you could have Lara outside a huge ancient temple. The only way in is through an opening in the roof. With free-climbing, players could use the natural architecture and decay of the temple to navigate it. But there should also be lots of little side openings in the temple to explore. Also, implement nature in moving around. Someone here came up with a cool drawing for a tree in a level and detailed how it could be climbed,i.e, branches replacing the convenient swing-pole. And if you're worried about people getting stuck, here's a simple solution: besides the optional hints and player tailoring (which were great), players could press a button that would direct their attention towards the correct path, by a simple turn of Lara's head and focus of the camera.
2. Combat
Really, now. After the first two games getting docked for bad combat, why did it show up in TRU? Granted, it worked ok with the non-human enemies, but combat sucked against humans. Completely re-work it. Either use the same mechanics as Uncharted and Gears of War, or make something original. But don't amke it full of human enemies again, at least have it evenly balanced, if not then make them mostly non-human. Also, spend more time on melee attacks. Really develop it into a full hand-to-hand combat system with combos and stuff, so we can get Lara into some cool fisticuffs. And when it comes to bosses, it'd be nice to have one or two. Just don't restrict us in an arena. The end part of TRU was great, just let us do some fighting with all that climbing.
3. Level Design/Atmosphere
You did great with this in TRU, now expand on it. Make the levels bigger and even more open, with more paths to choose from. Don't be afraid to make the player afraid; let loose with the puzzles and traps. Make puzzles not only huge, but complex and clever. Make traps really devious; blend them into the environment so the player is forced to make a split-second decision that could mean life or death. And bring back some of the old traps as well as the new ones. Collapsing floors, rolling boulders, spike walls and ceilings. Also, make adrenaline moments optional. Let us turn them off to get the full effect.
Underworld was made on a completely new engine.
I provided a link below. :)
http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/tomb_raider_underworld/preview-745.html
silver_wolf
26-11-08, 23:43
bull crap. Maybe when it comes to graphics and level size, but that's about it.
tranniversary119
26-11-08, 23:43
Underworld was made on a completely new engine.
I provided a link below. :)
http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/tomb_raider_underworld/preview-745.html
Nope..it's an updated Anniversary/Legend engine..
Underworld was made on a completely new engine.
I provided a link below. :)
http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/tomb_raider_underworld/preview-745.html
No, it wasn't, they kept saying it was until I believe Erik let it slip that it was just an updated Legend engine, which you can completely tell from the way it plays.
NateBrooks
26-11-08, 23:48
Nope..it's an updated Anniversary/Legend engine..
No, it wasn't, they kept saying it was until I believe Erik let it slip that it was just an updated Legend engine, which you can completely tell from the way it plays.
No Proof, No Truth!
It has long been known Underworld was created on a brand new engine.
If you guys think otherwise, prove it to me.
Anniversary was created on a updated Legend engine, but not Underworld.
silver_wolf
26-11-08, 23:51
It has long been known Underworld was created on a brand new engine.
Wrong, it has been long known that TRU was made on the old-but-updated engine. CD people have said it themselves. Why do you think it's so much like the others?
Ledges and free climbing have nothing to do with the engine used anyway, that is a problem with game play and level design. It was the graphics engine that was new in Underworld, basic engine is still the same one Crystal Dynamics has been perfecting for a while now. It seems fine to me, graphics seemed fine it is the level design that could still improve, and actually making the environment more interactable, l am sick of invisible walls there there is no reason to have one. And honestly if the QA is that bad maybe it is time they got some decent beta testers the only bugs l want to see in TR9 are the ones l can shoot!
NateBrooks
26-11-08, 23:59
Wrong, it has been long known that TRU was made on the old-but-updated engine. CD people have said it themselves. Why do you think it's so much like the others?
No.
Click on the link in my other post.
It says so....
But if you don't believe it, give me some evident to support what you're saying.
coolaideonfire
27-11-08, 00:01
They definitely need to do something radical with the next game. TRU was hyped up beyond belief and had so many expectations to live up to but in the end it just felt half baked and rushed. I'm not saying it was a terrible game, it wasn't, it was quite enjoyable a la Legend - but definitely not the product they were describing several months ago.
No Proof, No Truth!
It has long been known Underworld was created on a brand new engine.
If you guys think otherwise, prove it to me.
Anniversary was created on a updated Legend engine, but not Underworld.
Proof?
Play the interior section of Bolivia in TRL on Next Gen. and then play the interior section of the Mediterranean Sea level in TRU - the similarity graphics-wise is obvious.
coolaideonfire
27-11-08, 00:06
I think it's obvious Underworld wasn't based on a completely new engine, but rather an updated version of the old one. Playing Underworld I felt as though I was playing Legend.
Great suggestions silver_wolf, 100% agreed! :tmb:
No.
Click on the link in my other post.
It says so....
But if you don't believe it, give me some evident to support what you're saying.
They officially said it was just Legend engine but with some improvements. The game is almost identical to the last two.
The link you provided proves nothing, as that article was written in February when they started showing the game and throwing lies at us about great features that would never be part of the final game, and one of them was the brand new engine.
konichi-wa
27-11-08, 00:57
No, I clearly remembered they said it was made on a new engine. Just because its a new engine doesn't mean it would be a noticeably different engine. And it looks wayy different than legend on the 360
Tomb_of_Darkns
27-11-08, 01:01
No, I clearly remembered they said it was made on a new engine. Just because its a new engine doesn't mean it would be a noticeably different engine. And it looks wayy different than legend on the 360
if you look back at one of the interviews eric slipped on saying it was a much improved legend engine and then he kept saying it in other things. i don't have the video or article sorry. the gameplay like aussie stated is the same engine, but added moves to it, the graphics engine is the new part ;)
konichi-wa
27-11-08, 03:30
if you look back at one of the interviews eric slipped on saying it was a much improved legend engine and then he kept saying it in other things. i don't have the video or article sorry. the gameplay like aussie stated is the same engine, but added moves to it, the graphics engine is the new part ;)
ohh oops, okay aha, thank you for clearing that up for m.:)
_Awestruck_
27-11-08, 04:46
You people are killing me.
I saw a video of Eric letting it slip that it IS NOT a new engine. It's an E3 interview that's probably all over Youtube. Gah you read one link it's automatically right.
But Silver Wolf, yeah I agree with everything you said. NEW ENGINE FTW.
Candee Sparks
27-11-08, 05:43
No Proof, No Truth!
It has long been known Underworld was created on a brand new engine.
If you guys think otherwise, prove it to me.
Anniversary was created on a updated Legend engine, but not Underworld.
Proof? Perhaps opening your eyes will suffice?
Or perhaps you should look at gameplay all the way back from Legacy of Kain before they switched over to Tomb Raider and you will see just what we all talk about when we say it's been the same for as far back as we can remember. I do believe this is a brand new engine BUT, it shows very little difference in comparison to what they've previously done with past games they've developed with everything having to do with game mechanics, engines, and the gameplay.
The look and feel of this engine they've been updating and reinventing goes way back and I couldn't agree more with the idea of ditching it. Were now 3 titles in to the new Lara saga and all that has occurred is simply improvement.
Couldn't agree with you more Silvaaaa! ;)
navinloveslara
27-11-08, 06:28
Complete free-climbing would be awesome. It would allow CD to make much more dynamic and challenging environments, that really stimulate us into thinking. Besides, with all the free-climbing, we could go anywhere, anyhow, and this would really open up a more interactive world for us to play with in TR.
I think this is the right way to go:tmb:. Maybe not take out ledges 100%, but have a lot more free-climbing, and have agents blended into the environment. In Underworld, you could clearly see where you could free-climb, where you couldn't. Yes, it worked well this time, but it should really be opened up and be made more open-ended the next time round.
Look at Assasin's Creed, yes, it might have been too easy to get anywhere, but it really blended in free-climbing agents into the environment, and that's how the whole system of free-climbing should be. Just imagine, Lara climbing up a temple wall, nearing a hole where she can climb in, and then the area above collapses, thus making her look around for another way up and around, maybe grabbing a vine and swinging around the corner.
Free-climbing would really open up the world, I hope to see it in greater play in future:).
silver_wolf
27-11-08, 13:45
Couldn't agree with you more Silvaaaa! ;)
Thanks, Candeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee;) (hah, I win)
No Proof, No Truth!
Same to you!
Anyone can see that this isn't a new engine, rather an upgraded Legend one. Unless, of course, they are severely visually challenged or blinded by pre-release bull and hype.
Raider_of_tombs
27-11-08, 13:59
Completely agree! Let's see less obvious ledges, instead of them being smooth, make them rough meaning that lara can traverse on ANY ledge. This would give a whole new dimention to the game opeing up new posibilities. Of course the can be some obvious ledges where it makes architectual sence. like in Thiland there was a climbing section after you find the mirrors The ledges looked right in that section, as if they had been part of the structure, but due to trees and general time lapsing they had broken and moved apart. In fact most of thiland was simpling stunning :tmb:
And as for the poles there should be more added to make them look less convenient, even if the others lead to absoutly no where they should be made to look like they were part of the structure more than a random pole. Why was it originally there? Maybe as part of the celing. I also like the idea of using tree branches instead of poles. It would provide a more organic feel (same as the les obvious ledges).
Other than that, lets see more of the free climbing! Add free climbing areas that lead to nowhere to get us looking everywhere. ;)
YEP!!! i loved how u said about plat forming! but i didnt like the free climbing thing!!! maybe to a temple yes but in a jungle or mountain we could mountain climb. and as i said in many threads before we could have a mountain level! where we have to climb a mountain to get to the next part of the game!!!:ton::ton: and in combat! in tru i hate how she adrenaline jumps the mercs and the animals!!! it sucks only the adrenaline with the traps and dangers is very nice! but how lara adrenaline jumped the enemies it was not good!!! i hated it! please fix it! i loved how u made the game non linear!!! but dont make the next game dark!!!!! change it maybe something new!! but i liked the mommy and daddy thing!! there was no reason for lara first searching for excalibur but then, there was a reason!! i liked that but CD please take this into consideration!!! MAKE A LEVEL WHERE WE HAVE TO CLIMB A MOUNTAIN!!!!;););)
AmericanAssassin
27-11-08, 19:36
I don't think a completely new engine is necessary, but a lot of modifications need to be made to the TRU engine. The controls need to be more responsive, the camera needs to be managable (the TRU one was the worst in gaming history, IMO), and the combat needs to be viewable (I couldn't see anything with that camera)! The blood was awesome. Yay! However, I want to have to work for that blood. The enemy AI was terrible. Worse than AOD's. Please make the enemies difficult next time.
Last, but not least, I want an option for manual aiming. I would looooove that! :mis:
Anyone can see that this isn't a new engine, rather an upgraded Legend one. Unless, of course, they are severely visually challenged or blinded by pre-release bull and hype. Yeah, it's a pimped up, but old engine. And that only.
Godlikesweeper
27-11-08, 19:48
Well,I like this engine.But,its getting old.3 games so far.Yes,its time for a new one,but only because we need something fresh!Lara needs to control differently in the next game,that is getting old too.Give us the option to control in the old fashion way!:)
tombraiderluka
27-11-08, 19:52
This engine's great, just needs some retouching that's all :)
Well,I like this engine.But,its getting old.3 games so far.Yes,its time for a new one,but only because we need something fresh!Lara needs to control differently in the next game,that is getting old too.Give us the option to control in the old fashion way!:)
Yes! Make the controls a mix of AoD's (I'm talking about controls. Not responsibility) and TRU's. I'd prefer to just keep AoD's with some changes. But I guess that would be too outdated for a modern game.
ya....CD should make a new engine or license some other engine from an already successful game. with current TRL engine, for Lara to go anywhere, we just have to navigate side-to-side along walls and the space between walls (ground i.e., ) never gets used. and thats just stupid and repetitive.
New engine ? It should first be in terms of graphics ;)
New engine ? It should first be in terms of graphics ;)
Nah, gameplay mechanics over graphics any day :p
I wholeheartedly agree about, in particular, the boulders.. Bring Back Boulders! (oh no, someone's gonna acronymicalise that one into a thread too :o)
ya....CD should make a new engine or license some other engine from an already successful game. with current TRL engine, for Lara to go anywhere, we just have to navigate side-to-side along walls and the space between walls (ground i.e., ) never gets used. and thats just stupid and repetitive.
lol
That has nothing to do with the engine :p.
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