View Full Version : Should CD stop listening to us fans?
Imho they do, I think it's holding them back, trying to please the fan base so often.
TR Underworld comes closest to an old school TR game as the new gameplay allows, but at the same time it doesn't allow the game to evolve the way it should as it did with Legend.
Many fans won't be happy, but let's face it, they never will be. I say forget about 'em and move on. You can never please them all. And the fans that want the old games back need to get over it or move on to something different, it’s been 5 years since the last Core game already! Let Tomb Raider finally get to the next stage, we know CD can take it there.
I'm not saying make it a completely different game (we know how that worked out with AOD, still love it though) but at least make it a truly next gen title. A new experience, something different.
I personally love Underworld, but then again, I love ALL TR games, they have taken the series out of the gutter, now it's time to take a risk and get TR back in the big league titles again.
Because I hate for TR to become just a title for the “fans.”
I can see how that would stifle their creativity if they depend too much on us to tell them how things should be.
Immortalis08
28-11-08, 21:38
As long as they hear our feedback, I think it is fine. They should not stop listening to us, but at the same time they are not going to do every single thing we tell them to. In fact, I believe the outside world of gamers are very crucial at adding innovation and re-invigorating Tomb Raider. However, my main concern is that one day they may cater to the casual gamer, and forget about us. Then, Tomb Raider will become Uncharted. That is my worry.
You see, I actually suggested the same thing in another thread and pretty much got pounced on. But I do think that they need to, not so much as not listen to us at all, but don't limit themselves entirely by what we say.
I've seen it many times, in comics and in games, where the fans think they know what they want. But sometimes the writers will come up with something that, even though it may outrage the fanbase at first, you look back and it was actually the best thing for the franchise.
They shouldn't just stop listening to us completely. There are times when the fanbase knows what it's talking about and if you don't listen, you run into trouble. But at the same time, CD has their own creative team. They were hired because they should be capable to build a game from the bottom up. It's what they do. They shouldn't be held totally to what we say...especially when on a lot of topics, one group of fans say one thing and another group says something entirely different.
In a word: No.
Just because they listen to what we say, it doesn't stifle their own creative abilities, nor limit their own imagination.
We provide the fundamentals and (usually) give suggestions towards the basics. They can do what we want and what they want. We both want TR after all.
Eddie Haskell
28-11-08, 22:40
You see, I actually suggested the same thing in another thread and pretty much got pounced on. But I do think that they need to, not so much as not listen to us at all, but don't limit themselves entirely by what we say.
I've seen it many times, in comics and in games, where the fans think they know what they want. But sometimes the writers will come up with something that, even though it may outrage the fanbase at first, you look back and it was actually the best thing for the franchise.
They shouldn't just stop listening to us completely. There are times when the fanbase knows what it's talking about and if you don't listen, you run into trouble. But at the same time, CD has their own creative team. They were hired because they should be capable to build a game from the bottom up. It's what they do. They shouldn't be held totally to what we say...especially when on a lot of topics, one group of fans say one thing and another group says something entirely different.
Think of game creation for a series like a special, old family recipe. Someone generations ago figured out the proper proportions of the ingredients to make the dish delectable and special. As the later generations tasted and enjoyed the dish, they may have expanded their tastes to other cuisines, and found the dish a bit bland. The relatives all sit down to "improve" the wonderful recipe, and bring their own notions of "taste" and gastronomical wisdom to the discussion. So, they write up a new one with all of the additional changes that the group decide will "make the special family dish modern and "better". Than they set to work cooking up this hodgepodge of ideas into the new and improved family specialty.
I think that everyone knows the outcome, as the old and wise saying spelled it out better than my drawn out story.
"Too many cooks spoil the broth..."
TRLara Croft
28-11-08, 22:47
In a word: No.
Just because they listen to what we say, it doesn't stifle their own creative abilities, nor limit their own imagination.
We provide the fundamentals and (usually) give suggestions towards the basics. They can do what we want and what they want. We both want TR after all.
I do agree with this... partly. We give suggestions, but we do so on everything. We thought Tomb Raider was becomiing to dramatic so they lessened it... what did that get us? An ending where the emotional value is sucked dry ((partly)). We wanted to get rid of white ledges, they did. Now I have problems finding even a simple ledge right in front of me. Don't get me wrong - it adds to the gameplay value - but do I really want to keep leaping into nothingness only realize that I have to jump a whole 2 inches to the left?
BUT CD can handle the game. They can do whatever they want to the franchise. Add their own ideas. We can't take away the value unless they let us. So I'm a yes and no on this.
Candee Sparks
28-11-08, 22:48
Yes they should, to an extent. No need for me to go into further detail, just that they should do their own thing but at the same time consider us. We know Tomb Raider.
They are professionals, so no I don't think they should listen to fans all the time.
Eddie Haskell
28-11-08, 23:06
Yes they should, to an extent. No need for me to go into further detail, just that they should do their own thing but at the same time consider us. We know Tomb Raider.
Not to be argumentative, but who are "we"? There is no monolithic fan base that speaks as one. The "we" that you speak of consistently writes up a steady drumbeat of conflicting thoughts and ideas time and time again. And in saying that "We know Tomb Raider", that is in the eye of the beholder as well. Some in here are veritable fonts of TR knowledge, spewing forth facts and figures about every game component and Lara like they were born with them. Do they "know" more than the average player?
However, any developer worth their salt would certainly like to know what their buying public likes and dislikes in their product. One can only hope as a consumer that the developer would agree with their assessment of the product and what alterations (if any) were needed over the other jillion buyers.
Candee Sparks
28-11-08, 23:26
Not to be argumentative, but who are "we"? There is no monolithic fan base that speaks as one. The "we" that you speak of consistently writes up a steady drumbeat of conflicting thoughts and ideas time and time again. And in saying that "We know Tomb Raider", that is in the eye of the beholder as well. Some in here are veritable fonts of TR knowledge, spewing forth facts and figures about every game component and Lara like they were born with them. Do they "know" more than the average player?
However, any developer worth their salt would certainly like to know what their buying public likes and dislikes in their product. One can only hope as a consumer that the developer would agree with their assessment of the product and what alterations (if any) were needed over the other jillion buyers.
"We" as in we are fans, "we" as in we know Lara more, and "we" as in post in official suggestion threads. There's absolutely no need to think of a global level when I say "we", the world is not on this forum. They look to us to get ideas to give it to the 'Tomb Raider' feel.
Lets see, dont listen to the Fans and Ignore the Fans. :pi:
Yea give us another TRL kind of Game for TRU, trust me this third Brand New Game was wortless without the Hints and the Glowing things and the
Zip/Alister in your Ears kind of thing. http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sick/sick0006.gif
In other words, Listen to the Fans Crystal. :ohn:
Eddie Haskell
28-11-08, 23:31
"We" as in we are fans, "we" as in we know Lara more, and "we" as in post in official suggestion threads. There's absolutely no need to think of a global level when I say "we", the world is not on this forum. They look to us to get ideas to give it to the 'Tomb Raider' feel.
One does not have to leave this forum to read and bear witness to the stated activities as I have described them. I was only speaking of this forum...
And by the way, I was in no way trying to be negative towards you or your post. Just trying to clarify, that is all. :D
_Awestruck_
28-11-08, 23:31
Yes but not the point where it will make us all mad. Just SOME suggestions
^^ Agreed, yes but to a certain extent.
illuminati30
29-11-08, 00:34
No because everything the fans suggested was an improvement. The game received lower ratings due to technical difficulties.
It's not just about CD listening to "the fans;" it's about how they implement the suggestions of the fans.
I think what we've seen with Underworld is that they've taken things too far to the other side. People complained about 30+ outfits, so now we get about 12. People complained about an emotional storyline, and now we don't have one at all.
CD needs to have more faith in themselves. They had a lot of good things, especially commercially, going for them in Legend and Anniversary. And while I think Underworld took some steps forward in how TRs should be in the future, it also took a lot of steps back.
I think the trick is determining what are helpful, heartfelt suggestions from people who know what they expect from the Tomb Raider franchise...and what's a kneejerk reaction from crazed fan-boys who will never be happy no matter what CD does to try and please. We seem to have plenty of both.
Ward Dragon
29-11-08, 04:57
I love Underworld (aside from a few bugs and glitches of course) so whatever they did, they should keep doing it :D
As I stated in a similar thread I think they should listen but only ideas that match well with what they are implementing into a game.
Not to be argumentative, but who are "we"? There is no monolithic fan base that speaks as one. The "we" that you speak of consistently writes up a steady drumbeat of conflicting thoughts and ideas time and time again. And in saying that "We know Tomb Raider", that is in the eye of the beholder as well. Some in here are veritable fonts of TR knowledge, spewing forth facts and figures about every game component and Lara like they were born with them. Do they "know" more than the average player?
However, any developer worth their salt would certainly like to know what their buying public likes and dislikes in their product. One can only hope as a consumer that the developer would agree with their assessment of the product and what alterations (if any) were needed over the other jillion buyers.
Thanks for all the great replies to this thread :)
And I agree, the biggest problem is that there are so many different fan opinions. So many people that scream that they know best what TR should be.
I've been a fan since the very beginning, I love both the classics and the new games, I'm not a fanboy of either CD or Core. I don't know what's best for the series all the time either. All I do know is that we are getting in the way as fans, because there are to many different opinions. CD should just trust they know enough now and continue doing with what they want to do with the franchise.
Story wise = Yes they should stop listening. Be as creative as you can and dont let the fans change the story. Fans are stubborn and they think they know what will make an amazing storyline. In fact, some dont even want a bloody storyline.
Gameplay wise = 50/50. Implement something new to make the game.. well.. new. Listen to the fans to a certain level when it comes to criticism about something done poorly or things missing from the game. Dont take things out for the fans, or if you do, make them optional for those who liked those features. :)
Game graphics/art/style wise = Yes. I want them to be as creative as possible.
Should CD stop listening to us fans?
Of course not.
It's what made Underworld such a good game, and more importantly, a good Tomb raider. When they didn't have any kind of feedback, we got Legend. Do you really want to go back to THAT?
Of course not.
It's what made Underworld such a good game, and more importantly, a good Tomb raider. When they didn't have any kind of feedback, we got Legend. Do you really want to go back to THAT?
I LOVE Legend, I don't want another one because obviously it wasn't perfect (too easy and short) but the expierence was something that was finally new after 6(!) games. So that would be kinda yes then. Because without that much feedback they seemed to be much more creative ;)
Because without that much feedback they seemed to be much more creative ;)
What was so creative about Legend? The controls were great after AOD, but that's about it. There was no innovation in it.
I dont think People get when they are saying I Love TRL.
Do you Love the Shiny Ledges and Hints.
Do you Love the Obvious things shown tio you.
Do you Love the Headset with someone talking in your Ears constintly.
Do you Love feeling Stupid and asking yourself why Core Design never went this way. :o:p
Carbonek_0051
29-11-08, 11:22
I dont think People get when they are saying I Love TRL.
Do you Love the Shiny Ledges and Hints.
Do you Love the Obvious things shown tio you.
Do you Love the Headset with someone talking in your Ears constintly.
Do you Love feeling Stupid and asking yourself why Core Design never went this way. :o:p
-_- Yes cause that's exactly why I love TRL. I loved TRL due to it's replay value, voice-acting, cutscenes, story, score, and it was just a fun all around game. You assume that's why people like TRL.
:rolleyes:
On-Topic: Yes when it comes to story and art wise, let them be creative. Yes and no when when it come to gameplay, mayeb let them take Suggestions but also do their own thing I know what CD are capable of. :)
I dont think People get when they are saying I Love TRL.
Do you Love the Shiny Ledges and Hints.
Do you Love the Obvious things shown tio you.
Do you Love the Headset with someone talking in your Ears constintly.
Do you Love feeling Stupid and asking yourself why Core Design never went this way. :o:p
I love the game, I don't need to explain why, as I said, the game is not perfect as you so clearly point out. But it was the best TR expierence I had since I can't even remember when it was I had so much fun playing a TR game. That's good enough for me.
No because everything the fans suggested was an improvement. The game received lower ratings due to technical difficulties.
Agreed :) They do need to listen to us sometimes, but still, some people will never be satisfied.:o
Eddie Haskell
29-11-08, 14:32
Agreed :) They do need to listen to us sometimes, but still, some people will never be satisfied.:o
Why do they have to listen to "us"? Because they made changes that altered something that "we" liked? Or that they did not change something? Think about it, it is deeper and much more complex (on many levels) than you might initially imagine.
When Colonel Sanders created his secret recipe for Kentucky Fried Chicken, I am certain that after many billions of chickens eaten that no one would ever think of changing that delicious formula. That is how I feel about the game. Change for changes sake is silly, and simply because new games come on the scene with new formulas, added attractions and spiced up gimmicks doesn't mean that a solid, fun and (in my opinion) perfect game system needs to change along with them. Certainly a game must keep up with any technological (software and hardware) advancements that come along, but the game play and game system? Why tinker with a successful system that identifies with the game and character? The reasons are simple...critics, the "keep up with the Jones'" aspect and the corporate need to justify ones job.
I know that I will never again see this series done in a style that I like, and I am not bitter about it at all. I am glad that many are loving the new games, and that now even RAID is on board. It's kudos to the team at CD for finding a way to attract RAID, and kudos to RAID for proving his open mind. :)
I think CD will stop listening from now on actually. The made two easy and boring games which "everyone" seemed to love. The reviews and the ratings were good and it sold great.
Now they made a game that even core fans like, but the "legend fans" don't. It finally felt like a classic Tomb Raider.
But it doesn't sell good and the reviews are bad because it's "too hard and non linear". That's what most people want as I understand, a short 4 hour game with lots of emotion and a hollywood story. Oh and lots of costumes and ooh maybe we could do Lara's hair and make-up in TR9! Because if they would have chosen to keep the game going in the direction Legend was, that's exactly what we would have gotten.
I loved Underworld but that doesn't matter does it? It's not about what "the fans want". Forget about us, we only kept the series alive for 10 years. Now there are legend fanboys-girls. That are ready to bail and not buy the game just because a cutscene wasn't like they had hoped or lara doesn't have 50 outfits.
Well it's up to them of course. But money is all it comes down to. So the game that sold best is probably the type of game we'll get next.
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