The dust has settled a little now... [Archive]

Saphyre

30-11-08, 22:39

I have been a fan since TR II, but even so I have played TR 1 to death. I have every main TR game out there, and have played them all, and enjoyed them all, some more than others. I enjoyed AOD too, but when I found out about everyones harsh opinions about it it kinda tainted my view of the game.

Then TR legend came along, and I loved it to death, played it again and again and again. Anniversary I enjoyed and played, not a much as legend, but a lot. TheN Underworld... I love the game, but I'm just not going back to it at all, I keep trying, but within minutes of playing it I turn it off.

I think at the minute, I am growing very bored of Crystals current formula, but at the same time I just can't see how CD are going to change it at all, I just can't imagine another CD game being any other way, which is good, because if they do make drastic changes to their formula, its gonna be something I never imagined.

laralover_07

30-11-08, 22:44

Having not played Underworld yet, my view is limited...

But I would say that there's a lot more to come from CD.

In retrospect, Legend was an awesome game by a great developer, but as it was their first Raider, they didn't want to jump the gun too much.

Anniversary was a remake, so there wasn't much CD could to improve the series, they already had Story, Characters and Locations, so graphics and the links to the previous and next games were all they could do.

Underworld sort of put them back at the first hurdle, It was a new game on a next-gen wave of consoles, so they had to up the standard to please fans. Although, I would say that again, they couldn't do much more with the story. Fans who weren't amazed with legend's storyline were beginning to get tired of lara's mum and wanted the story arc over and done with.

I feel Tomb Raider 9 will be the true fresh start CD needs... They can start again and develop Lara's adventure to stand out from other third person platformers. They no longer are restricted to artistic license and they can basically do what ever they want.

To sum it up in three words, one exclamation and large punctuation; WOOP, GO CRYSTAL DYNAMICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jeffrey van oort

30-11-08, 22:50

Quasimodo

30-11-08, 23:00

The new TRs aren't as intimidating, mysterious, or challenging as the classics. I do enjoy controlling Lara with an analog stick rather than directional buttons so that was a big plus for me with Legend. I'm as enthused as ever about the series, but I think that's mostly due to participating on this forum.

Lior_K

30-11-08, 23:45

Crystal seem to be in the right direction but I don't believe they could ever deliver a game as good as the classics.

Their style of gameplay and level design is significantly different (not necessarily in a good way) and after 3 games I'm very certain the next installment will look great, play OK and last only few hours at best.

Its clearly no longer the CD who created Legacy of Kain (and personally I really hope they won't try to bring another LoK because the current developers would ruin it as well) so better expect less and hope for more.

CrazyMonkey

01-12-08, 00:05

Stosh

01-12-08, 00:06

Well, look where this is going. 8 gig for Underworld. More and more impressive
graphics and models. If they wanted to put in everything they wanted to you
would have to have a supercomputer to run it! AT LEAST give an iddy bitty
piece of it for gameplay and setup. Using regedit to fix stuff that should be in
the game already. Jeesh.

slowdiver

01-12-08, 01:37

I haven't got TR:U yet (hopefully this week, but we shall see).

I loved Legend, although there was very much a feeling that, being CD's first take on the game, they were trying to put too many ingredients in the soup, in the hope that they could gauge what current and new fans would want from a game. So for every occasion where you think "Hey, now this IS Tomb Raider" you also get an equivalent and opposite "Yeah, but this isn't what TR is all about though, is it".

Anniversary I have very mixed feelings on. My favourite TR game has always been TR1, purely because there was no precedent. Everything in that game, while not necessarily new in a general gaming context (platform games, adventure games, action games had all been done previously), was new in the way that they were all stitched together to make a complete game.

Although there were a lot of WOW moments in Anniversary, and a strong sense of seeing old friends again, there were also a few too many instances whereby the things I loved about the original game were reworked in a way that I didn't enjoy, or were left out altogether.

You had a level like Qualopec, which I felt was marvellously handled and presented, to Midas, which, ok Mr Botta, may have given us a whole statue rather than just feet, but also completely removed the whole "surely we're nearly finished by NOW" feeling that came from the original. You then had the Cistern, one of my favourite levels from TR1, reduced to basically a one-room puzzle, serving purely as a preview to Tihocan.

I can't really say anything about TR:U yet, having only played the demo so far, but the biggest stumbling block that CD are up against, IMHO, is balancing realism with interesting level design. Contrary to the way a lot of games seem to be approached, there is absolutely no reason why you can't have something totally unreal and surreal integrated into an environment that obeys realistic rules and physics, both at the same time. TR1 worked so well because it did this, and did it frequently.

So in a nutshell, I like some of the direction that TR is now taking, and I dislike some of it. Unfortunately for CD, along with any firm creating games, this is something that they are always going to come up against.

silver_wolf

01-12-08, 01:39

I think TRU is one of the better TRs. I'm not disappointed and I have faith in CD.

krycekuva

01-12-08, 01:48

i feel like they are learning,.. slowly but learning,.. still feels like we had to take em on the hand and show em all,.. like if they woulnt know anything abot tomb raider...:(

nice that we get now better and bigger levels, but there are many things missing...

im still not getting lost. if its a jungle its still one way jungle.

the enemies dont surprise me at all. (same old boring ones, even bats and spiders are the same i the entire game.. they should mix em.. perhaps recycle some of the old ones to make it more varied,)

some places arent really that well designed. if its a lost city,.. where are the houses, the closed doors, the borcken windows, the old furniture laying around?, the secrets wall paintings, small holes to each other rooms to get only dusty. the famous unreachable secrets and completely ot of road yet sightseeing paths... (take example fro PoP... there were 1000 of doors in every level, even if they were not to be opened. but they let you feel you are in place that once was alive, and not i any level esigned for yo to beat easyly.... core did that aswell in each TR. spreading doors and windowas that werent to be opened.)

not really many levels.

as i said there were MANY MORE Stuffs in TRA and yet more i TRL. they are getting better,. but at a very low pace. yet im sure nxt time it should be almost perfect. i possitive, i am a possitive person...:D

marukisu

01-12-08, 03:00

Tomb Raider Legend- Didnt care for the level design but it was their first time so i gave them the benefit of the doubt, but the story was wack in terms of plot and tone especially in comparison to AOD.

Tomb Raider Anniversary- It was a significant improvement over Legend no doubt,but i didnt like how they messed up the story in order to fit their own continuity

Tomb Raider Underworld- I have yet to play it but i can already tell my fav levels will be Thailand and Mexico..and maybe the Medeteranean Sea. Ive seen the story though and not only was it a let down but this was their chance to redeem how they did the story with Legend and Anniversary, and they failed

On a more general note is it just me or do i think its easier to control Lara in the Classics than in Crystal's versions. Now hear me out, in the original TR's she moved like a robot no doubt but you kinda got the hang of it after a while. It made you think about where you jumped before you did it and things moved a little slower but more acurate. With Crystals the response time is much faster but at the expense of smoother animations, an autograb dependant on the camera and a heavy amount of jumpingfrom ledge to ledge gameplay. Also when you are in mid jump you can motion her from the right or the left in mid air which makes for shakey and erratic looking jumps.

As far as Crystal's games go, I really have no initiative to go back and play the game and with the newest game Underworld LACKING in extras i really dont think i will give it more than one playthrough.

Another reason i dont think i care too much for crysal's games is the story. In the classics they were simple and sweet and kept to one game(with the exception of TLR Chronicles and AOD linking to eachother). Even with those at least i had the initiative to want to know what hapened next. The whole mommy drama soap opera really killed my TR experience in terms of the story. Another thing that really ruined it was the need to link the old continuity to the new one and create this convoluted mess. Also her personality just isnt there anymore.

The final thing i think CD drops the ball on is level type and quantity. Underworld was too short and the balance in look wasnt very good. everything felt so grey and dull. Core had a thing where they used random colors within their lighting which i think gave TR a certian charm.

Isaac

01-12-08, 03:34

Another reason i dont think i care too much for crysal's games is the story. In the classics they were simple and sweet and kept to one game(with the exception of TLR Chronicles and AOD linking to eachother). Even with those at least i had the initiative to want to know what hapened next. The whole mommy drama soap opera really killed my TR experience in terms of the story. Another thing that really ruined it was the need to link the old continuity to the new one and create this convoluted mess. Also her personality just isnt there anymore.

Tomb Raider Legend- Didnt care for the level design but it was their first time so i gave them the benefit of the doubt, but the story was wack in terms of plot and tone especially in comparison to AOD.

Somehow contradictory in what your says : You criticize CD for its story, stating that the story was short, simple, and kept in one game in the classics but yet, you praise AoD for its complex story (which was also meant to be a trilogy)...

Just needed to point that out :)

Quasimodo

01-12-08, 04:02

marukisu

01-12-08, 04:53

Somehow contradictory in what your says : You criticize CD for its story, stating that the story was short, simple, and kept in one game in the classics but yet, you praise AoD for its complex story (which was also meant to be a trilogy)...

Just needed to point that out :)

I could have sworn i said that Core' were short and simple and not linking together from sequel to sequel with the exception ot TLR-AOD. And i dont remeber praising AOD for being complex. I think i praised the plot/premise and the tone of the story rather than its complexity.

What i was trying to get at that i didnt like Crystal doing is rewriting the bio, when they simply could have overlooked AOD and made a game like TR 1-3 which had a plot about an artifact and the story was specific to that game.

Im all for trilogies and what such have you however Crystal failed to deliever on their plot and ****ed up the continuity of old TR's. But i see what youre saying abouyt how i contradicted myself. I typed alot and let out a massive brain vent but i never meant to make it sound as though if im opposed to sequels or trilogies. Im saying that Crystal didnt need to do that because their story wasnt epic enough to warrant that.

Serval Boy

01-12-08, 06:14

I really enjoy the direction my favorite franshise has gone and will be on board for future games. The only shortcoming I can think of that could influence my continuation of following Lara's adventures is my recent realization that there is a shortage of random deadly traps in the hallways.

Anarae

01-12-08, 06:26

Classive lover here. Now, I'm optimistic. I've been a fan since I was 9, my best friend introduced me and I loved it at first play (TR1). Since then I've been very pleased with the franchise until Legend, in which I adamantly feel was the worst Tomb Raider I have ever played. Anniversary didn't impress me either, so much that I never bothered to complete it.

I was rather down about the franchise and direction until I got my hands on Underworld. It was a delight to play and restored my trust in Crystal Dynamics.

Core will always be a legend to me and under no circumstances will I ever forget their work. They were the right devs for the job and to date, I think they always will be.

Though, I am pleased with Crystal D and their vision for Underworld (half because it was fantastic, half because I wanted that bleeding mother story overwith!). Mostly thanks to Eric Lindstrom and his vision.

Of course there's something missing and that's maturity. This isn't Crystal D's fault by any means. It's that damn T rating. :mis: You think Lara would let me borrow that hammah? I'll send that T rating to hell.

Lior_K

01-12-08, 09:58

Dont blame the devs. Blame Eidos and the Teen rating. Kinda hard to take any game seriously with that rating. CD used to always make M rated games with awesome stories.

Teen rating is just one factor...the fact they cannot make a long game on their own (that is without basing it on an already existing game...which BTW they made shorter as well) - is simply something to blame only the developers for. While I agree that Eidos could have/most likely rushed them but considering they were working on TRU since Legend and then even delayed it for 5 months (original release date was supposed to be June 2008) there is no excuse for 8 levels when only two of them are truly complex and the rest are pretty short.

na_th_an

01-12-08, 15:37

Count me as:

- Classics lover. Core was just ace.
- Expansions lover. People at Eidos did an awesome job with UB, GM and LA.
- AOD lover. Core almost did an awesome work, it was just a matter of "bad management".
- Legend lover. Fresh air. Too much shooting and too short, but very fun to play.
- Anniversary lover. Superb remake. As fun as Legend, as interesting as the classics.
- Underworld lover. Awesomeness.

Upon that, I'm quite happy with Crystal Dynamics. I'm looking after their next release!

Kiss-Bite

01-12-08, 15:55

I love Tomb Raider, but the TR that captured my heart has been gone for a long time. CD are talanted & they did an amazing job with the Legacy of Kain series. I was so very hyped for TRL & TRA, which I did enjoy & then TRU, again I enjoyed.

However, all three CD TR games lacked a certain magic & it being missing the third time round doesn't reassure me. I've kind of just excepted now that the special thing that made me love TR will probbably never return. Of course I'll sill enjoy & will be interested in where the series goes. As time moves on & the more CD TR games are released gaining new fans all the time, the classic magic will be more & more a distant memory.

laralover_07

01-12-08, 16:15

As I've said before, we sshould wait until after TR9 before we judge CD on their ability to make TR games.

-Legend, was their first game, so they didn't want to do too much to change the series. A new story that wasn't to everyone's taste was the main problem...

-Anniversary was a remake so they couldn't do much here either. It was still a great game that captured the charm and scale of the original.

-Underworld was a mix. It was challenging as it was CD's first step on a new console. It was also a continuation of Legend which wasn't everyone's favourite game.

We should wait until TR9 because it's still truly CD's first chance to really do their own thing. The past 3 games have had something to core. The first game after Core went downhill, The remake of a Core game, the sequel to the first game after core went downhill. TR9 will be a fresh start because CD now have a taste of Next-gen and a chance to create a whole new, epic story.

Great work CD, keep it up.

Megalith

01-12-08, 17:46

First of all,i haven't played Underworld yet so feel free to disregard my opinion if you want.
I've been playing Tomb Raider games since 1998 and it was once my favourite series side by side with games like Final Fantasy,Resident Evil,Silent Hill,and many other "heavy weight" titles.Many of my gaming buddies thought the same about the game.
We all thought that Tomb Raider was a unique title,It had a very British look that made it stood out from many other games of its time,and that it was quite hard but very rewarding once you got accustomed to control Lara and find your way through hostile environments without the helping hand of the developers to guide your steps.It was just you (Lara),your skills,your mind,and your experience of having played previous levels or previous games.Lara responded accurately to your actions and there was a very prominent logic for all her actions.You had to walk her to the edge of a platform,made her do a small jump backwards and she was ready to perform a lengthy jump.There was nothing left on chance,the player was completely responsible of his actions.
Lara herself was cold,ruthless,with a delicate sense of humour,and who was always in control of her feelings (most of the times.)You would never see her cry,or getting very angry at any circumstance.There was always the cold logic of a woman who grew up with the upper classes of her country.As much as she wanted to "escape" from those surroundings,her background was always apparent in her personality.It was as if there was a wall between Lara and the player that made her look distant and mysterious but also left enough space in her character to be filled by the player's imagination.

When Crystal took over,the franchise had already seen its way 2 times in Hollywood.Eidos was facing dire financial problems and after the flop that was AoD they consciously chose to re-introduce the franchise including both gameplay and characters.TRLegend was as if Eidos told Crystal to forget about the gameplay in the classics,to base their visual library more in the movies than in previous games,and also completely redesign Lara's personality in order to appeal to more people who were now more able to identify themselves through a more human (but low/middle class) Lara.The new gameplay elements made it also more accessible to a wide range of people of all ages and skills.Hardcore was no more an option,they had to go casual if they wanted to reach their sales targets.

Now the truth is video games changed a lot since 1996.Today if a game has beautiful graphics is is enough to make the players and the critics to forget about gameplay problems,bugs and controls.More and more people today play their games as if they were interactive movies.
One of the main differences with today's games versus the older,is that today developers try to make you care or identify with their characters through plot and character development,when the games of a decade ago managed to make you care through gameplay.

I don't think the "magic" of the older games will ever return (at least for me.)The only way for that to happen,is if only they return to the older gameplay design and manage somehow to make the player be completely in control of Lara's actions by bringing back a somehow improved grid system.For some this may feel "restricted" but giving restrictions to any game (rules) is what makes it exciting.Also i think for the game to regain its Britishness that made it popular in the 90's,it has to return to a British developer studio and act as if the "trip to Hollywood" never happened.
But i know that the chances for all these to happen are almost zero so i'm quite prepared for the actual future of the franchise.
I have very low expectations about Underworld and the upcoming TR games so i know that in the end i'll enjoy them (just like i did Legend and Anniversary) but i don't believe that i will have the series side by side with the best of its contemporary competitors as i did 10 years ago.:(

Reggie

03-12-08, 11:09

First of all,i haven't played Underworld yet so feel free to disregard my opinion if you want.

...

Haven't played Underworld yet either (will be getting TRU and a PS3 for Xmas though) but I have to say that's a brilliant post because I can identify with everything you're saying there including how the changes are more noticable to someone like me and you who put such a high value on the old style of gameplay but recognising at the same time that this is not going return in current climate and with same developer.

TRF

03-12-08, 11:15

You know...
I don't care about anything..

I've been fan since TRII... I've wanted to play TRI, but we had no sound back then, so i returned it.. Never played the Original TRI, but loved every other game..

Even TRAOD... Which many of us don't... :p

Legend, AMAZING game... Replay Value is amazing.
Anniversay: AMAZING game... Replay value is amazing.
Underworld: AMAZING game... Replay Value is quite low, but still play it for the 2nd time.

I don't care who makes the new TR game.. As long as there is going to be a TR9 and a very good game aswell... TRU like, but longer, harder and Epic

Godlikesweeper

03-12-08, 11:20

I don't think the "magic" of the older games will ever return (at least for me.)The only way for that to happen,is if only they return to the older gameplay design and manage somehow to make the player be completely in control of Lara's actions by bringing back a somehow improved grid system.For some this may feel "restricted" but giving restrictions to any game (rules) is what makes it exciting.Also i think for the game to regain its Britishness that made it popular in the 90's,it has to return to a British developer studio and act as if the "trip to Hollywood" never happened.
But i know that the chances for all these to happen are almost zero so i'm quite prepared for the actual future of the franchise.
I have very low expectations about Underworld and the upcoming TR games so i know that in the end i'll enjoy them (just like i did Legend and Anniversary) but i don't believe that i will have the series side by side with the best of its contemporary competitors as i did 10 years ago.:(

Exactly!I agree 100%!:)

illuminati30

03-12-08, 11:20

I still like Cores games, and CD have a 66% success rate for me personally in that i have enjoyed 2/3 of their games. I would like the next game to be a bit more polished though. The frame rate issues on the PS3 in the Mexico level, when you ride the bike fast are unacceptable. The replay level option is also not there, and the lack of trophies is a let down.

Tomb of Legends

03-12-08, 11:41

Ive finished the game, it was reletively bug free. The camera and answer free ending is what annoyed me, oh aswell as insane ammounts of clipping, and I forgot another one..Framerate. Pathetic, Mexico was hard to play.

Now Im in Tresure Hunt mode, and the bugs our out like a Bug to a Light, pun intended. The PLS dies all the time, and wont turn back on. So far, thats it. But Im sure it will get worse.

I have a good ability to look past games faults, Im more of a Story person. So TRU still gets a 9.8/10 from me. Its no doubt the best since TR2, the hardest since TR3 or 4 and the buggiest since AOD. It seems every time TR jumps to a new gen..it succumbs to bugs..but you've gotta expect that in some way.

The dust has settled, now I want ANSWERS for TRL and TRA and a damn patch. The lack of extras and basics annoy me too, like Level replay and cinamatic replay. And is it so hard to produce a Replay all option in this day and age?

*laralover*

03-12-08, 13:45

Well im a Classic girl :p I like all of the games though but i prefer the Classics than Crystal Dynamics ones...TRL i was so excited to play and i did enjoy playing it at first until i noticed how easy,linear and annoying the game was and i cant forget the end of the game...that has to be the worst feeling ever i remember just thinking "WHAT THATS IT?! :o" :vlol: I wasnt really bothered about TRA then it came out i bought it anyways :p and i actually really enjoyed it apart from it being a horrible remake of my favourite game :mad: I was 50/50 about TRU but after playing it im happy and i know CD really know how to make a TR game its just each game has somthing missing...Too short? Not enough puzzles? Story feels rushed? Bugs and Glitches galore? TRL was missing alot...TRA had the whole TR feeling but it didnt have variety in the actual gameplay and the levels that were rushed ruined it. TRU has the TR feeling and good gameplay but it was sort of short and buggy arg :o All i can say is im pretty confident the next TR will be good but it will be missing somthing and our days of awesome TR's are long past :(

Braider

03-12-08, 14:17

I have played all the TR games (many times) and I still believe that CD are very close to perfection. TRU had a great story, but I miss the collectables that unlock outfits and other extras.

I overcame the replay problem by saving at the start of each level, this means that in addition to Treasure hunt mode I can replay any level as Full Game.

CD need to look at difficulty, and danger, during the game I failed to find any Relics(first play) so Lara's life bar did not increase, however not once did I use all the medipacks in some levels I still had 12 at the end. I remember in some of the classics I had to back track to find medipacks to be able to continue the game!!!

All in all well done CD I loved TRU and with a few changes TR9 could be Amazing!!!

Kiss-Bite

03-12-08, 14:23

CD need to look at difficulty, and danger, during the game I failed to find any Relics(first play) so Lara's life bar did not increase, however not once did I use all the medipacks in some levels I still had 12 at the end. I remember in some of the classics I had to back track to find medipacks to be able to continue the game!!!

All in all well done CD I loved TRU and with a few changes TR9 could be Amazing!!!

The same, I hardly used any medipacks during TRU because I rarely needed to.:( In the classic TR games I used to search out every medipack to collect because I knew soon enough I was going to need them!:D

frodrigues

03-12-08, 14:32

I enjoyed AOD too, but when I found out about everyones harsh opinions about it it kinda tainted my view of the game.

Then TR legend came along, and I loved it to death, played it again and again and again. Anniversary I enjoyed and played, not a much as legend, but a lot.

Are you and me the same person? :p

tranniversary119

03-12-08, 15:08

Why does it seem after every game people say, Wait for the next game to judge CD? How many chances do they get? I do think they did it with Underworld though. But there's ALOT of room for improvement.

dream raider

03-12-08, 15:31

Something is missing...

shadow_boy

03-12-08, 15:38

I think CD is doing a tremendous job, they still have to improve on some things though.
Looking at the bright side I can't stop thinking how much they listened to us and how much the game has evolved from legend to TRU (I'm beginning the manor still, I didn't expect Thailand to be the way it was, I loved it. the part after the demo is great, lots of places to get lost and the music... great) and that is something Core didn't do, whether they didn't have the resources to do so or the time or even the will, the point is that even though their games had that TR feeling all their games pretty much were the same. and they proved that they weren't really good with keeping up with new technology, they probably never had the time to adapt to it and learn it and AOD was the result of that (still quite enjoyable game, inspite its flaws).
I for one am really happy with TRU and with CD as the new developers. I'm not quite as happy with Eidos as publisher though. Shame that's the one thing that cannot change.
Thank you CD for TRU it's a great TR game, maybe not the best game out there in shelves but still pretty damn good. Seeing how reviewers are saying legend was better makes me think how strange the franchise is. it definitely isn't for the masses, it's a hardcore franchise therefore not many things can be changed to the formula which means all tomb raiders need to have a very similar feel to them which to a casual gamer would feel like more of the same old thing. this only proves why now that CD has made a TR more in form for the fans casual gamers such as reviewers don't quite like it while fans are liking it a lot.

They should have had more time to develope it though, it should have been longer and they should have develope more the areas we have. the ship, for instance, was great but it was way too short, manor... same thing. Thailand... great but make you want even more. only complain... the underworld, there was nothing to do there.
Boss fights should be back. they have to improve the combat system for the next game. I guess they didn't include boss fights so that they didn't have to spend more time on those and focus on the looks of the game. Bring them back and improve upon them and other generic enemies, that's the one thing that a tomb raider game can be changed without altering the feel of the game.
level design and sound effects... keep them just like in mexico and thailand.
replay value, give us a reason to play again. having great gameplay is one thing but if we can get something else makes it even better.
if you want us to replay an area like in the mediterranean then make it feel different, change from day to night, make it rain, add more enemies, destroy the area and make us solve another puzzle to get out. make the area feel new again. and if we want to replay the level give us the two options: treasure hunt and full replay (everything is back the way it was the fist time we played it).
saving system. it is much better than in legend and anniversary, still... is it too much to ask for a quick manual save and load? (F5 anf F6) like in the old games and that we can load the game in the exact place we saved) Checkpoints are fine but you can either give us the option to choose between checkpoints of manual save at the begining of the game or use both in the game but ask what to load when we die: the last checkpoint or one of our manual saves.
Player tailoring was a great idea, keep it and the save system would be one more option to be included there.
and finally the use of vehicles, I loved having the option to play with different vehicles in tomb raider games. bring them back and I mean THEM, not only the bike. They are more enjoyable when you have an area that is open ended, sort of a sandbox area. more like GTA or Assassins or the new prince of persia but on the ground thing. you can go by foot or use vehicles to go to places of the area you are in. whether it's land, water or the air. bring variety to the game with the use of vehicles.
ohand stop introducing enemies with cutscenes, make them appear out of nowhere bring that creepy feel to the games. specially with bosses.
custcenes are great and in tomb raider games they always felt like a reward after playing but don't include thing that could have been done by us when playing and also give us the option to replay the cutscenes from the main menu.

Nausinous

03-12-08, 15:45

Crystal have delivered 3 games that we played, analysed and had many a good discussion about. But what TR now?

How do you feel about TR now compared to how you used to feel before? Are you more enthused than ever, or, mindful that the new direction is maybe not for you..?

Be honest. After TR:U are your hopes for TR realised or are you thinking - still - something is missing? Or conversely are you thinking now - Core who?

Classic lovers, Legend lovers, Anniversary lovers - give your views.

:)

I have played and completed all three of Crystal Dynamic's Tomb Raiders, I can say that I have played all of Core Design's Tomb Raiders but I can't say I've completed all of them because some were more challenging than others. The classics were consistent and challenging, something I found lacking from Crystal Dynamic's approach to the games. I played the game on the Master Survilasist and found a distinct lack of challenge and realism. Tomb Raider has always been a blend of a fantasy world with the world we live in, you find elements of each world in every level. Medipacks were a realistic way to heal yourself, random pots of fluid scattered around the level are not. Hand crafted animations looked graceful and motion captured animations look ugly and unrealistic. I just want to mention that I have actually gone out of my way and recorded myself climbing on buildings just like Lara Croft does in Underworld and when you compare me to Hiedi Moneymaker, the term motion capture seems as if it must of meant something completely different to Crystal Dynamics. Crystal make Tomb Raider less of an immersive experience and more of a ... 'Dip your toes in because we haven't made a pool, we've made a puddle.' If Tomb Raider wants to be a stark contrast to the rest of the crowd they have to do something completely different or find a trend they can follow.

If anyone wishes to debate the finer points of what a Tomb Raider should be and what Crystal thinks a Tomb Raider should be I'll be posting a more thorough, analytical review somewhere in the future. For now, I've just ranted in the worst grammaticaly structured way possible to outline the points that make this Tomb Raider fail.

Eddie Haskell

03-12-08, 15:48

I think CD is doing a tremendous job, they still have to improve on some things though.
Looking at the bright side I can't stop thinking how much they listened to us and how much the game has evolved from legend to TRU (I'm beginning the manor still, I didn't expect Thailand to be the way it was, I loved it. the part after the demo is great, lots of places to get lost and the music... great) and that is something Core didn't do, whether they didn't have the resources to do so or the time or even the will, the point is that even though their games had that TR feeling all their games pretty much were the same. and they proved that they weren't really good with keeping up with new technology, they probably never had the time to adapt to it and learn it and AOD was the result of that (still quite enjoyable game, inspite its flaws).
I for one am really happy with TRU and with CD as the new developers. I'm not quite as happy with Eidos as publisher though. Shame that's the one thing that cannot change.
Thank you CD for TRU it's a great TR game, maybe not the best game out there in shelves but still pretty damn good. Seeing how reviewers are saying legend was better makes me think how strange the franchise is. it definitely isn't for the masses, it's a hardcore franchise therefore not many things can be changed to the formula which means all tomb raiders need to have a very similar feel to them which to a casual gamer would feel like more of the same old thing. this only proves why now that CD has made a TR more in form for the fans casual gamers such as reviewers don't quite like it while fans are liking it a lot.

They should have had more time to develope it though, it should have been longer and they should have develope more the areas we have. the ship, for instance, was great but it was way too short, manor... same thing. Thailand... great but make you want even more. only complain... the underworld, there was nothing to do there.
Boss fights should be back. they have to improve the combat system for the next game. I guess they didn't include boss fights so that they didn't have to spend more time on those and focus on the looks of the game. Bring them back and improve upon them and other generic enemies, that's the one thing that a tomb raider game can be changed without altering the feel of the game.
level design and sound effects... keep them just like in mexico and thailand.
replay value, give us a reason to play again. having great gameplay is one thing but if we can get something else makes it even better.
if you want us to replay an area like in the mediterranean then make it feel different, change from day to night, make it rain, add more enemies, destroy the area and make us solve another puzzle to get out. make the area feel new again. and if we want to replay the level give us the two options: treasure hunt and full replay (everything is back the way it was the fist time we played it).
saving system. it is much better than in legend and anniversary, still... is it too much to ask for a quick manual save and load? (F5 anf F6) like in the old games and that we can load the game in the exact place we saved) Checkpoints are fine but you can either give us the option to choose between checkpoints of manual save at the begining of the game or use both in the game but ask what to load when we die: the last checkpoint or one of our manual saves.
Player tailoring was a great idea, keep it and the save system would be one more option to be included there.

Excellent post. Lots of good points and ideas. :)

The underlined above (that you put very well) is the problem that EIDOS faces. It is my contention that they truly believe that they can make nearly everyone a Tomb Raider gamer; if they can find the perfect, happy medium that they believe exists. I believe that if such a state exists (and it doesn't), it would be a game of such underwhelming simplicity and overwhelming visuals that one would be better suited watching a dvd movie.

Tomb Raider was supposed to be a challenging, dangerous, precise, skillful game. The reason that many did not play it was for those reasons. It is also the reason that many DID play it.

MMAN

03-12-08, 15:48

After playing Underworld I'm a little confused; I blamed it all on Eidos before, and, while that's probably true for stuff like the lack and polish and removal (or never added, as the case probably is) of extra content from Legend and Anniversary. But there also seemed a general lack of ambition in various areas, with stuff like most of the Underworlds being little more than grey and blue stone chambers despite all the talk about things getting overworldly and all the massive potential the myths involved have, and time constraints don't really explain those to the degree it is in the game. Plus there's generally stupid design choices that could be resolved easily (like the way the your health regenerates after dying when the easy solution would be to only make that happen if you die multiple times, maybe changed by difficulty). It's a leap from Legend and probably Anniversary (still haven't decided that yet) but like Anniversary it feels like it could have been so much more.

Guess the truly fresh start the next game provides is the last chance for them to prove they can evolve.

Gomes

03-12-08, 15:56

The original Tomb Raider was unique as a game back in the day. Now there's tons of adventure and action games in the third person. So I wouldn't compare.

I loved Underworld, I think they are on the right track in terms of gameplay. They surely learned a lot and glitches aside, they did a beautiful job. Nostalgia aside for the first three oldies, I think it's the best Tomb Raider so far. I got really immersed and even felt vertigo.

Things I loved and are to keep and improve:

- No headset. Lara saying "Thanks Zip, I take it from here." Next game, Zip gets fired. No need to actually shoot him, though!
- The beautiful levels. Having to explore natural scenario before reaching the ruins. Make them bigger. Tomb Raider is exploration problem solving.
- Mechanical puzzles! The swinging hammers! The vertigo! Lara actually carrying things from one place to the other. Lara holding blocks in a logical manner. I loved it. Keep it up.
- Turning off hints and icons.
- Choice of clothing before the level starts. More clothes next time, dependent on the treasures you find the level before.
- Using the artifacts you find. More!
- Tranquilizer gun. A keeper, so we don't feel bad about killing those near extinction tigers. It could have a bit more amunition, the enemies could have stayed knocked for much longer and the combat music should stop looping.
- Ledges were less obvious. Make it even more so, I still saw the addiction wasn't completely cured.

The "ahem" bits:

- Repeated boat level? What was that about?!
- Glithy camera. Let the player turn with the mouse and zoom into Lara. Have the camera go back to a good default position where you can see where you are going when you let go of the mouse. Sometimes this almost happened but it didn't quite work?
- The way her legs swim underwater. It didn't feel right. Did anyone else notice this?
- Lara should climb anything that looks climbable even if it doesn't get her anywhere. Because it's fun.
- Drama. Too much. To give Lara hope she could find her mother for that? Come on, that was too evil. From now on, let the study of the myth and the collection of the artifact be Lara's goal. Make that interesting in itself. She can save the world as a side effect, but she doesn't need someone specific to save or avenge or whatever.