View Full Version : White Ledges or No White Ledges
JuliannaCroft
03-12-08, 20:51
This has probably allready been posted, I am to lazy and tired to look for it!
I vote no white ledges, I like how they blend in with the environment in TRU, I know there are some players who like it or are just spoiled from having it in TRL and TRA, I wonder if there was a away to have an option to turn it on or off. I still vote no white ledges those.
No wjhite ledges...except cracks and things on natural rock,but any ledg on architecture should be climable like assasins creed;)
NO! I am not stupid!!!! :p
No wjhite ledges...except cracks and things on natural rock,but any ledg on architecture should be climable like assasins creed;)
Exactly what I was thinking, cracks makes it more difficult to see, and is more natural, and those tree trunks, small rocks and the ledges and surfaces on architecture makes you think like "I wonder if she can climb that ?" and when you play TRU you know what she is capable of grabbing but if it had this you wouldn't know what she could climb because it's so diferent making you atempt some jumps to see if she grabs something. Plus makes it somehow non-linear because it can be used as shortcut so be careful with that. :)
The main problem isn't the ledge's color, but the fact that the path is pre-determined and often, the ledges appear out of nowhere.
A good example is Midas' Palace in Anniversary. The main statue has ledges on its left, but not on its right... It's illogical...
CD has made a great job this time, the ledge seemed more natural (though I can still see some flaws : Why there's a ledge out of this wall but only there?).
CD should use more of the environments instead of manmade structures (temple's wall). A crack in a mountain, a tree, stones on a mountain... Not always brick ledges, wooden ledge.
More useless ledges would be good too, simply because it would remove this feeling of "there's a path". Instead, it would say "There's a way to get there, use what you see to get there".
This isn't the question.
NO LEDGE AT ALL ! We are in 2008 they can do so much more than to stupid ledge, be creative for exemple : shooting a tree so you can climb on it. Free-climbing, STAIRS, an hanging rope, grapple (with no ring this time).
Danny Blazy
03-12-08, 21:14
If the wall or the place where the ledge is is white, then yes. If not, then no.
NO WHITE LEDGES!!!!!!!
Underworld got it right in some places. I think it's totally lazy! They blended some ledges, but for the rest it was like, "I can't be bothered, let's just shove some more white ledges in..."
I mean come on, it's Tomb Raider...!!!!! :hea:
You can see them from the other side of the level they're so ugly. It gives you something to aim for, which is wrong. You should be stood there thinking, "Right, which way should i try next..."
not..
"Ok, there's some white ledges, i guess i need to go that way...."
;)
Fallen.Angel
03-12-08, 21:19
I love what they did with Underworld. Some were obvious, but most were blended in perfectly. :)
No more white ledges- or more specifically, no more blatantly obvious ledges! Underworld was on the right track. I'm also with you who say the ledges are overused. I don't mind some here or there, but I want some more variety! I was so happy to learn Lara could jump onto poles in Anni, and the AOD style free-climbing was brought back for TRU- keep that up! The more ways there are to get around environments, the better. :)
This isn't the question.
NO LEDGE AT ALL ! We are in 2008 they can do so much more than to stupid ledge, be creative for exemple : shooting a tree so you can climb on it. Free-climbing, STAIRS, an hanging rope, grapple (with no ring this time).
Right on! The next step besides getting rid of obvious 'interact with me!' ledges, 'free climbing' nubs, super sparkly rings, is moving beyond them completely.
We have a Huge Thread on this already and while i vote NO White LEDGES, is this really neccesary. :confused:
I must be really stupid not to notice a Giant Golden Ring. :mis:
http://i33.tinypic.com/2cwmkc2.jpg
Oh ya...Im stuck on that ledge actually,what do I do...I think I have to repel down with my grapple but where do I attach the grapple?????
Lame
Trfansince1996
03-12-08, 22:29
Lolol. No white ledges please.
I vote no. I haven't played TRU yet and the white ledges in TRA are way too easy to spot. I didn't really notice the white ledges in TRL as much.
Evilmititis
03-12-08, 23:58
the white ledges takes away the challenge and the realism to the climbing scene...
I love how she climbs in TRU, BRILLIANT!!!
Evilmititis
04-12-08, 00:01
We have a Huge Thread on this already and while i vote NO White LEDGES, is this really neccesary. :confused:
I must be really stupid not to notice a Giant Golden Ring. :mis:
http://i33.tinypic.com/2cwmkc2.jpg
hahaha, I love that!!!
it's kinda funny, if you think about it....
a tricky means of climbing, having to discover what you can actually do, and they flop that in there...
I'm not against it or criticizing it, it's funny!
Love it!
:vlol::ton:
Evilmititis
04-12-08, 00:04
Right on! The next step besides getting rid of obvious 'interact with me!' ledges, 'free climbing' nubs, super sparkly rings, is moving beyond them completely.
Climbing is FUN!
Tomb Raider has always climbed...
you can improve it, make it much more challenging and interesting (w/e)
and you can add some new twists, like the shooting trees down, (not just using the environment, but shifting it...).
although, you must keep some of the traditional climbing...
in some way!
:confused:
I'd have to say no to white ledges...to a point. Even in the original Tomb Raider, it didn't take much more than a passing glance at the surrounding environment to know what walls could be caught on to and shimmeyed (how ever that's spelled). And there is something about knowing what to do next in a game without having to die half a dozen times just to find out were to go next.
At the same time, there doesn't need to be anything so glaringly obvious as a shiney white ledge. I think TRU did it right. Ledges and handholds can be seen. You not left wonder "now what." But it is more blended into the background. It looks beleivable that a ruin may actually look like that. I like what they did with that this time.
tranniversary119
04-12-08, 02:51
Here we go again :rolleyes: Ledges in Underworld were PERFECT..no need to continue the GROWL.
No. There were still ledges where a crack would suffice and ledges that were not possible to grab for no good reason. Although what I call the ledge and pole revenge level (tower in Jan Mayen Island) was fun.
ledge and pole revenge level
lol i love that name XD
No white ledges. Better yet, no ledges at all. Only wall climbing in the future. Ledge hopping is an overused old gen mechanic.
I think the way ledges have been treated in UW is good. Its still mostly obvious that you can jump here or there, but some "ledges" are fake... so you blindly jump and Lara falls...and dies. That happened to me a few times, like that hammer-swing-on-bridge part of Valhalla, I expected the bottom metal part of the swinging hammers to be "ledges"..., at the first Calendar in Mexico, I assumed the side of the platform to be "ledges" because it looked like it was, but no...
The balance is therefore good, IMO
No white ledges! Underworld was really good at some place but most of the time they were visible. But in a quite good way though. Way better than anniversary! Yay! :D
IF ledges then NO white ones. But I'd prefer tree branches and other natural stuff!! :D
No white ledges. Better yet, no ledges at all. Only wall climbing in the future. Ledge hopping is an overused old gen mechanic.
I agree. Although there can be some ledges at places where they actually fit (where they're part of the architecture for example).
I don't mind the ledges, but why does it have to be the only signal for a climbable surface that there is? Hello, us players are completely capable of spotting a difference in elevation that Lara is able to overcome, without a white stripe on the top of it. As in make everything climbable. All those knee-height things that you can't get Lara on in any way are lame beyond anyone's compheresion, and I don't understand how anyone's right mind allows them to create such at all. One prime example would be the raised corner of a low stone wall formation in Thailand's first tiger area.
Then there are those spots where you're first not supposed to get, and when you do, you either run into some invisible walls, or Lara will float well above the textures or something else just as sensible. Such as the gates of Xibalba. Solve one calendar, get down there and try to jump onto the raised part of the ball court (swan dive from a slight distance should do it), and what do you know? While a wall won't block Lara from getting on top at first, one will come and block her from walking all around on it.
I ask you... Wtf is an invisible wall doing there. Who exactly put it there? I mean, they HAVE to be placed, and manually, right? They don't just appear...
Why can't texturing and collision match? You know, like they do in real life.
Here we go again :rolleyes: Ledges in Underworld were PERFECT..no need to continue the GROWL.
So you say there weren't any white ledges? I don't mean to insult you but...than you either haven't played the game or have a serious problem with your eyes. I suggest to go to the doctor.
I'll also have to add, it's not just about white. It can basically be any colour that contrasts from the rest of the structure well enough. But if it must be there, the non-white choice is obviously better, as it's usually more believable.
About things other than ledges, the free-climbing walls that have these larger-than-Lara's tits sticking out of them, well uhh... Yay. It just gets harder not to notice, plus it looks really out of place. The wall could just look worn down for a sleeker indication of "grab this". Like... Cracks! Something that should be used far more instead of ledges as well.
Crack is the new tits?
Lara-Thomas
04-12-08, 13:37
Ledges is Underworld were fairly un-noticeable towards the begining but then towrds the end , they become more viewable.
So I prefer no ledges tbh , makes it harder :)
Eddie Haskell
04-12-08, 13:44
I'll also have to add, it's not just about white. It can basically be any colour that contrasts from the rest of the structure well enough. But if it must be there, the non-white choice is obviously better, as it's usually more believable.
About things other than ledges, the free-climbing walls that have these larger-than-Lara's tits sticking out of them, well uhh... Yay. It just gets harder not to notice, plus it looks really out of place. The wall could just look worn down for a sleeker indication of "grab this". Like... Cracks! Something that should be used far more instead of ledges as well.
Crack is the new tits?
Precisely. A white ledge on a white wall is not highlighted. The proper term should be highlighted ledge, as this is the reason for the obviously contrasting visual.
In my opinion, they should simply create an environment made up of all things potentially climbable. The only obstacle to climbing/jumping any of it at all are the limits of Lara's athleticism and tools. Someone mentioned the grapple should be a real tool, and of course it should be. It should be able to adhere to almost any surface, allowing you the gamer to experiment with it at will to find the right angle or explore many areas. Certainly there would be areas that would make this type of exploration prohibitive (slick walls/ceilings, loose material, etc), but making it a real tool would go a long way towards real control.
I don't mind the ledges, but why does it have to be the only signal for a climbable surface that there is? Hello, us players are completely capable of spotting a difference in elevation that Lara is able to overcome, without a white stripe on the top of it. As in make everything climbable. All those knee-height things that you can't get Lara on in any way are lame beyond anyone's compheresion, and I don't understand how anyone's right mind allows them to create such at all. One prime example would be the raised corner of a low stone wall formation in Thailand's first tiger area.
Then there are those spots where you're first not supposed to get, and when you do, you either run into some invisible walls, or Lara will float well above the textures or something else just as sensible. Such as the gates of Xibalba. Solve one calendar, get down there and try to jump onto the raised part of the ball court (swan dive from a slight distance should do it), and what do you know? While a wall won't block Lara from getting on top at first, one will come and block her from walking all around on it.
I ask you... Wtf is an invisible wall doing there. Who exactly put it there? I mean, they HAVE to be placed, and manually, right? They don't just appear...
Why can't texturing and collision match? You know, like they do in real life.
I think you expressed it in a very harsh way, but I agree with your sentiment. Perfect ledges - more specifically, brightly marked ones - are, if not a necessity, at least a consequence of the player's interaction with the game world being severely limited. Lara can only climb a fraction of the surfaces, leges and angles she should be physically able to, so if you, as a developer, want to 'save' players from endless trial and error, you have to hint at the 'right' path more or less obviously. Invisible walls are very similar - sometimes they're flashing neon signs saying 'there's nothing here!', sometimes they're substitutes for the artificial, insurmountable level borders of old (because let's be honest, a truly open world is impossible - personally I find visible, physical borders less distracting than invisible ones, though. Yes, they obviously look less realistic than a seemingly endless world, but nothing kills the suspension of disbelief like virtually running into a game engine's limits).
I realize that it was much easier to allow free-climbing in a grid-based environment than it is in a more natural, more random one. It will have to be the way to go in the future, though - with graphics getting more and more realistic, the platform-based gameplay starts to stick out like a sore thumb. I think the current TRL gameplay formula couldn't be done much better than in TRU, though.
navinloveslara
04-12-08, 13:51
I love what they did with Underworld. Some were obvious, but most were blended in perfectly. :)
Agreed, they should keep on that route, but also make the climbing environment much more natural.
lara_fanatic
04-12-08, 16:19
Have you noticed in TRA and TRU pretty much all the ledges ledges are always jutting out in that rectangular shape?? Kinda like a right angle. Even though they were supposedly less visible in TRU (don't have game yet) I still noticed they had that same design and were still slightly noticable. So..it kind of makes sense to say that if a ledge doesnt have that design then Lara can't grab it?
What do you all think? Should CD stop making every single legde with that rectangular shape and change the style for some of them?
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