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IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 14:50
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7853803.stm

They've started up again because a bomb killed an Israeli soldier. Instead of investigating or finding out who exactly was responsible they just started attacking from the air again!:mad:

Sharon_14
27-01-09, 14:52
Oh well, you'll always be on their side won't you? of course they check who shot those missiles, and attack, but we warned them that if they shoot again, they will be bombed.

raiderfun
27-01-09, 14:57
:yik: :yik: :yik:

I saw this morning in the news that an Israeli died and three others were injured. They are not even sure if the bomb was programmed before or after the ceasefire. I am not shocked at all, I know that Israel is seeking the very least reason to start destroying Gaza. :rolleyes:

Sblade
27-01-09, 14:58
And Hamas uses ONU and civilians buildings....

That doesn´t quit the fact Israel used HDE explosive...

Encore
27-01-09, 14:58
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7853803.stm

They've started up again because a bomb killed an Israeli soldier. Instead of investigating or finding out who exactly was responsible they just started attacking from the air again!:mad:

Israeli investigation means bombing **** to the ground then searching the wreckage and finding the body parts of the terrorist among 100 other dead civilians: "There you go, it was him!"

Mission accomplished!

Cochrane
27-01-09, 15:02
Tragic as it is, I can't help but think "I knew it!". Now, for the countdown until Hamas starts shooting rockets again...

Peace in the area won't happen before both sides significantly reduce their default reactions to everything. In this example, use police-like forces instead of air attacks to investigate and punish the ones responsible.

IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 15:51
Oh well, you'll always be on their side won't you? of course they check who shot those missiles, and attack, but we warned them that if they shoot again, they will be bombed.

Sorry I don't think I understand what you mean.


Someone commited an act to unsettle the ceasefire. It was not necessarily Hamas, or israel. Why are there no "warnings/second chances" from your government? Why must there always be heavy retaliation?

What has your government accomplished with the bombings over the past month?

Nothing. except many thousands of dead Palestinians. So, what is the purpose?

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 16:18
Tragic as it is, I can't help but think "I knew it!". Now, for the countdown until Hamas starts shooting rockets again...

Peace in the area won't happen before both sides significantly reduce their default reactions to everything. In this example, use police-like forces instead of air attacks to investigate and punish the ones responsible.I agree.

Something that annoys me about this conflict is that many people are so biased towards Hamas and they just blindly go against Israel, because y'know it's cool to hate those Zionist warmongers :rolleyes:. Innocent people are getting killed and injured on both sides.

IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 16:34
It isn't "blind" to support those that are suffering the most. That are in need of Humanitarian aid. Yes people are dying on both sides, that doesn't justify anything and it's a justifiable arguement.

Why do/don't you support one side or the other?

(open question to everyone on this forum)

_ush2_
27-01-09, 16:39
OMG!

You know how much this ****ess me off? Really i dont hate israelis but letting people sign missiles, using children as sheilds, shooting at children....

Talk about madness! Anyway why is this whole crap happening??

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 16:43
It isn't "blind" to support those that are suffering the most. That are in need of Humanitarian aid. Yes people are dying on both sides, that doesn't justify anything and it's a justifiable arguement.

Why do/don't you support one side or the other?

(open question to everyone on this forum)You do know that Hamas are partly to blame for all these civilian casualties? Hamas are moving innocent civilians directly into the line of fire. I never said it was blind to support the Palestinians by the way, I said many people just blindly hate Israel because it seems like some sort of fad that's going round.

Geck-o-Lizard
27-01-09, 16:47
Innocent people are getting killed and injured on both sides.

That argument would be much stronger if the ratio of Israelis to Palestinians killed was a little more even than 1:100.

many people just blindly hate Israel because it seems like some sort of fad that's going round.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean the people you're talking about "blindly" follow "fads". Israel do not need any more of our support, whereas Gaza has turned into a humanitarian emergency zone with thousands of injured people in need of immediate help. It is utterly inhuman in my eyes to support Israel in what they are doing. They have absolutely no regard for innocent lives. If they did, they would not be using devastating area of effect weapons in heavily populated areas.

IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 16:47
I asked you a simple Question Tony. I'm not going to aruge with you. You aren't worth being banned for. If you cannot be civil then do not talk to me at all. Got it?


Hamas isn't responsible for Israel firing rockets at a UN school or destroying aid supplies.

raiderfun
27-01-09, 16:54
You do know that Hamas are partly to blame for all these civilian casualties? Hamas are moving innocent civilians directly into the line of fire. I never said it was blind to support the Palestinians by the way, I said many people just blindly hate Israel because it seems like some sort of fad that's going round.

Israel doesn't seem like a sort of fad, it is a horrible fad !

And how can you say that some people are going blindly against Israel ? How can someone support all these attacks ? How can someone encourage Israel ? I support Hamas because they have the right to defend themselves, although, I do not agree with them at 100%. As I said, Israel is looking for the smallest non justified reason to attack Palestine.

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 16:56
That argument would be much stronger if the ratio of Israelis to Palestinians killed was a little more even than 1:100.The only reason why that is is because Hamas don't have very advanced weapons. If Hamas had the same military capabilities as Israel, they would've murdered every Israeli down to the last child.

I asked you a simple Question Tony. I'm not going to aruge with you. You aren't worth being banned for. If you cannot be civil then do not talk to me at all. Got it?


Hamas isn't responsible for Israel firing rockets at a UN school or destroying aid supplies.Which question was that? The confusing one where you contradicted yourself?

How am I not being civil? :confused:

@Badr: You do know Hamas are a terrorist organization?

I think defending your homeland from bomb and rocket attacks is a good enough reason. Admittedly Israel aren't doing a very good job of targeting Hamas, but that's partly because Hamas are moving innocent people into the firing line.

Geck-o-Lizard
27-01-09, 16:58
Hamas are idiots. They don't need our support any more than Israel does. It was their provocative (if nearly harmless) rockets that started this fighting.

The only reason why that is is because Hamas don't have very advanced weapons. If Hamas had the same military capabilities as Israel, they would've murdered every Israeli down to the last child.
What makes you so sure of this? What makes you so sure that isn't Israel's intention? For someone who hates generalisations, you make a lot of your own.

We armed Israel. That's the only reason they're more powerful than Hamas. Had we armed Hamas instead, I think we would be seeing this exact same situation, only in reverse.

@Badr: You do know Hamas are a terrorist organization?
No they're not. Hamas are a political and paramilitary group who were ELECTED into power by the Palestinians.

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 17:03
Hamas are idiots. They don't need our support any more than Israel does. It was their provocative (if nearly harmless) rockets that started this fighting.


What makes you so sure of this? What makes you so sure that isn't Israel's intention? For someone who hates generalisations, you make a lot of your own.

We armed Israel. That's the only reason they're more powerful than Hamas. Had we armed Hamas instead, I think we would be seeing this exact same situation, only in reverse.Do you not think that if Hamas had more destructive weapons then they would use them against Israel? The rocket attacks were completely unprovoked.

If Israel did want to completely destroy the Gaza strip then they would've done it already. They do have nuclear weapons after all.

Hamas are a terrorist organization according to Canada, the United States and the EU. Look at the Nazis, they were elected but would you not class them as terrorists?

Geck-o-Lizard
27-01-09, 17:20
Do you not think that if Hamas had more destructive weapons then they would use them against Israel?

Of course they would. But if they had more powerful weapons, this would be a war, not a one-sided massacre.

Hamas are a terrorist organization according to Canada, the United States and the EU. Look at the Nazis, they were elected but would you not class them as terrorists?

Absolutely not. "Terrorism" is not a catch-all word for any militaristic organisation who opposes us. The word is completely meaningless now that it gets applied to anyone holding a gun we didn't authorise.

The term "terrorism" is utterly ridiculous today.

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 17:28
Of course they would. But if they had more powerful weapons, this would be a war, not a one-sided massacre.



Absolutely not. "Terrorism" is not a catch-all word for any militaristic organisation who opposes us. The word is completely meaningless now that it gets applied to anyone holding a gun we didn't authorise.

The term "terrorism" is utterly ridiculous today.It's not a one-sided massacre. Just because Israel have a vastly superior military doesn't mean it's not a war.

Definition of terrorism

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/terrorism

Sounds like Hamas to me.

Archetype
27-01-09, 17:41
Israel doesn't seem like a sort of fad, it is a horrible fad !



Thought you got past this sort of stuff? :/

Geck-o-Lizard
27-01-09, 17:57
Just because Israel have a vastly superior military doesn't mean it's not a war.
Sounds like Hamas to me.
Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence

If Israel are at war with Hamas then it's soldiers fighting soldiers and terrorism doesn't factor into it anywhere. If Hamas are "terrorists" then they are not soldiers and it's not legally a war. Being the officially elected government of Palestine, Hamas ARE soldiers, so can't have committed terrorism in their rockets against Israel. If you argue that governments can commit terrorism against other nations, please allow me to direct your attention to the Bush administration.

My point is that generally, a war occurs where two sides are able to fight each other. In this case, there's little actual fighting going on. Israel are attacking Gaza from the air in perfect safety, and as many civilians as enemy fighters are dying because of it.

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 18:00
But you've got to remember that Hamas are firing rockets and planting bombs in Israel. Yeah, they may not be effective but that still doesn't make a difference. The two sides were fighting each other on the streets just a couple of weeks ago and now they're back to using other forms of combat (rockets, air strikes etc).

Forwen
27-01-09, 18:00
Hamas are idiots. They don't need our support any more than Israel does. It was their provocative (if nearly harmless) rockets that started this fighting.


Actually they're very cunning. They need Palestinian deaths to confirm their reason for existing.

Gregori
27-01-09, 18:02
Like Siding with Goliath.... or in Modern Terms... Supporting Mike Tyson in a fight against a 2 Year old...

Geck-o-Lizard
27-01-09, 18:13
But you've got to remember that Hamas are firing rockets and planting bombs in Israel.

Acts of war, not terrorism.

IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 19:35
Why do/don't you support one side or the other?
(open question to everyone on this forum)

That was the question.


Which question was that? The confusing one where you contradicted yourself?How am I not being civil? :confused:

And THAT's why you're not being civil. Instead of saying "i'm sorry could you repeat the question" or "i didn't notice it what was it" you make an insulting comment.

raiderfun
27-01-09, 20:17
@Badr: You do know Hamas are a terrorist organization?

I think defending your homeland from bomb and rocket attacks is a good enough reason. Admittedly Israel aren't doing a very good job of targeting Hamas, but that's partly because Hamas are moving innocent people into the firing line.

Hamas Terrorist ? To few countries only, mainly North America. Let me ask you something, but before you answer my question, try to be as neutral as you can, why would people consider Hamas as terrorist while not Israel ? Isn't this discrimination ? Why do some governments accuse Hamas, that is only a team to protect the country and that is very weak, as terrorist and not Israel that was established randomly and that kills thousands of innocent people ?

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 20:30
Hamas Terrorist ? To few countries only, mainly North America. Let me ask you something, but before you answer my question, try to be as neutral as you can, why would people consider Hamas as terrorist while not Israel ? Isn't this discrimination ? Why do some governments accuse Hamas, that is only a team to protect the country and that is very weak, as terrorist and not Israel that was established randomly and that kills thousands of innocent people ?Actually, Hamas are considered a terrorist organization by quite a few countries. The European Union is pretty big you know.

Hamas are considered a terrorist group because they are responsible for terrorist attacks (such as suicide bombings) upon Israel civilians.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-05.htm#P735_169095

Badr, could you please be a bit more neutral yourself? You're telling me to be neutral but your statement right there was extremely biased against Israel and in favor of Hamas.


And THAT's why you're not being civil. Instead of saying "i'm sorry could you repeat the question" or "i didn't notice it what was it" you make an insulting comment.I think you're taking my comment as an insult when it certainly wasn't meant that way. I found it contradictory and confusing because you put do and don't in the same sentence. It's my fault that I didn't understand the question but you shouldn't accuse me of not being civil when my comment obviously wasn't an insult.

Shrantellatessa
27-01-09, 20:36
There's nothing I can add that'd be different than what I said before on this subject.

Kittypower
27-01-09, 20:37
There's nothing I can add that'd be different than what I said before on this subject.

I agree, i dont know if i would add much to this heated debate.

raiderfun
27-01-09, 20:46
Actually, Hamas are considered a terrorist organization by quite a few countries. The European Union is pretty big you know.

Hamas are considered a terrorist group because they are responsible for terrorist attacks (such as suicide bombings) upon Israel civilians.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-05.htm#P735_169095

Badr, could you please be a bit more neutral yourself? You're telling me to be neutral but your statement right there was extremely biased against Israel and in favor of Hamas. .

Ben, here you are trying to avoid my question, let me ask you again : don't you think that lauching missiles, throwing bombs from the air, using marine machines, using illegal weapons, commiting genocide, killing innocent civilians is not considered as "terrorist" , whereas, lauching useless missiles to Israel is considered as terrorist act ? Answer me honestly.

I wish I could be neutral but the circumstances don't allow me, I really do not see any reason to support Israel.

Mad Tony
27-01-09, 20:54
Ben, here you are trying to avoid my question, let me ask you again : don't you think that lauching missiles, throwing bombs from the air, using marine machines, using illegal weapons, commiting genocide, killing innocent civilians is not considered as "terrorist" , whereas, lauching useless missiles to Israel is considered as terrorist act ? Answer me honestly.

I wish I could be neutral but the circumstances don't allow me, I really do not see any reason to support Israel.Israel aren't committing genocide. The Israeli attacks are acts of war, not terrorist attacks. As I said, Israel should be doing a better job at targeting Hamas but by that same token Hamas shouldn't be putting civilians in the firing line.

What do you mean, the circumstances don't allow you to? You don't have to support Israel to be neutral. In fact, supporting Israel wouldn't be neutral at all. It'd just be nice if you could show at least a bit of neutrality, since you're asking others to do the same.

Thorir
27-01-09, 21:02
It's unbelievable this sort of things happen in this day and age.

Some people obviously don't want peace.
Get rid of those people. People who want war should never have political power.

raiderfun
27-01-09, 21:12
It's unbelievable this sort of things happen in this day and age.

Some people obviously don't want peace.
Get rid of those people. People who want war should never have political power.

I agree here :tmb: But it's not only a question of not wanting peace only, it's a matter of fair solution ;)

Kittypower
27-01-09, 21:16
I agree here :tmb: But it's not only a question of not wanting peace only, it's a matter of fair solution ;)

and fair varies from person to person.

IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 21:17
and fair varies from person to person.

Genocide and ethnic cleansing isn't "fair"

neither is bombing someone's home and then bulldozing so they cannot collect anything from their lives.

Ilie_Fusarau
27-01-09, 21:25
^:tmb:!

Kittypower
27-01-09, 21:31
Genocide and ethnic cleansing isn't "fair"

neither is bombing someone's home and then bulldozing so they cannot collect anything from their lives.

It is far from genocide, there not rounding people up and putting them into camps. And your second statement has no factual basis. Also, we arent getting anywhere. We are just using the same arguments we were using last time. Its back and forth.

IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 21:40
It is far from genocide, there not rounding people up and putting them into camps. And your second statement has no factual basis. Also, we arent getting anywhere. We are just using the same arguments we were using last time. Its back and forth.

they're isolating them into provinces and cutting them off from international aid/assistance. they can't import/export anything and have to obey the laws of a country they aren't apart of. No electricty, No water, and lack of medical supplies.

My second statement does have factual basis:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7852218.stm

Kittypower
27-01-09, 21:52
they're isolating them into provinces and cutting them off from international aid/assistance. they can't import/export anything and have to obey the laws of a country they aren't apart of. No electricty, No water, and lack of medical supplies.

My second statement does have factual basis:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7852218.stm

as i said before, we are going back and forth and i will stop here.

IceColdLaraCroft
27-01-09, 21:59
:wve:

Thorir
27-01-09, 22:10
Why don't the Israeli people want peace?

Honestly. They are ruled by democracy. Why do they bomb Palestinia?

Do Israel really support this?
On TV we of course only see people who heartily support demolition of the Palistine.

I was particularty shocked by a young girl, around 24-26 who wanted every Palistian to be killed. She said she wanted the city and the people demolished. She later said "no, don't send that!"

She really seemed like a normal, European girl.

Israel is weird.

Aethists ftw.

raiderfun
27-01-09, 22:26
Why don't the Israeli people want peace?

Honestly. They are ruled by democracy. Why do they bomb Palestinia?

Do Israel really support this?
On TV we of course only see people who heartily support demolition of the Palistine.

I was particularty shocked by a young girl, around 24-26 who wanted every Palistian to be killed. She said she wanted the city and the people demolished. She later said "no, don't send that!"

She really seemed like a normal, European girl.

Israel is weird.

Aethists ftw.

You have yourself answered your question earlier, the government is always zionist and is not for peace sadly. And concerning democracy, they can call themselves whatever they want in order to impress the world, but they are not worth of that name and I can give a lot of proofs if you want.

Which TV channel are you watching ? You're from GB, right ?

Thorir
27-01-09, 22:44
I'm from Norway. We have many Muslims here from around the world.
It feels sad to be from a free European country, yet the Israeli ambassy is protected by snipers and armed guards here.

You can't freely demonstrate. If you do, you risk being arrested.
A huge number of teenagers under 16 will have a criminal record because of this peace demonstration.

It is to be noted that a HUGE part of Norwegian demonstration are by minors who cannot be arested, yet have no political power.

Kittypower
27-01-09, 23:59
You have yourself answered your question earlier, the government is always zionist and is not for peace sadly. And concerning democracy, they can call themselves whatever they want in order to impress the world, but they are not worth of that name and I can give a lot of proofs if you want.

Which TV channel are you watching ? You're from GB, right ?

keep telling your self that.

Geck-o-Lizard
28-01-09, 00:55
Israel aren't committing genocide. The Israeli attacks are acts of war, not terrorist attacks.

"Acts of war" when they're on our side. "Acts of terrorism" when they're our enemy. Hence why the term makes my ears bleed.

The only real difference between terrorism and war, in fact, is that terrorism is done by the people and war by the government. "Terrorism" is the personalisation of war.

M.A.
28-01-09, 03:46
Just heard on the radio that Israel is prohibiting the Humanatarian Aid from entering Gaza. My heart is burning. If only I can go there... :mad:

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 06:09
Why don't the Israeli people want peace?

Honestly. They are ruled by democracy. Why do they bomb Palestinia?

Do Israel really support this?
On TV we of course only see people who heartily support demolition of the Palistine.

I was particularty shocked by a young girl, around 24-26 who wanted every Palistian to be killed. She said she wanted the city and the people demolished. She later said "no, don't send that!"

She really seemed like a normal, European girl.

Israel is weird.

Aethists ftw.Just because Israel is a democracy doesn't mean the government are gonna listen to the majority of their people. How do you know that the majority of the Israeli people don't want peace? Have you been round and asked every one yourself?

As it happens there are Israeli's who want peace.

http://news.antiwar.com/2008/12/27/protests-across-israel-in-wake-of-gaza-attack/

Do you not think that there aren't Palestianians out there who want Israel to be destroyed. I'm not saying all Palestinians think this but there certainly are ones that do. This is a war. People on both sides want to see the other one totally obliterated.

What do you mean by ahteists FTW? Do you think that atheists are somehow superior to religious people?

Ward Dragon
28-01-09, 07:33
Like Siding with Goliath....

Interesting analogy considering that David was an Israeli.

In any case, I truly do not understand why Palestinians keep attacking Israel considering the near certainty that Israel will win any military conflict between them. Given Israel's vast military superiority, the fact that Palestine still exists is proof to me that Israel wants peace. They could have destroyed Palestine many times over by now if they really wanted to. So if all Israel wants right now is for Palestinians to stop firing missiles and planting explosives in Israeli territory, why don't they do it? It seems like a reasonable request, and as people here keep insisting, the attacks are "useless" anyway and only provoke an overreaction from Israel. So, what is the point of continuing to attack Israel if the attacks consistently do very little damage and result in Israel counterattacking? I think the first step towards peace would be for Hamas to stop posturing or threatening Israel.

MrBear
28-01-09, 10:06
Interesting analogy considering that David was an Israeli.

Hehe, hadn't thought about that :p

But as to the question you're asking: the reason you have trouble understanding Hamas is Reason itself.. If they took a reasonable approach to their status quo, then yes, they'd probably stop firing rockets into Israel; but when religion (although I'm not one of those, who think religion should never have been) and some sort of pride or nationalism or whatever, I guess, when they are taken into the equation the motives for the actions of Hamas are not reasonable.. But then again, so many things aren't reasonable because of various factors..

I guess you'll just have to be content with the inexistence of reason in what Hamas is doing :)

You might say it's purely the principle of fighting Israel that is their motive.. At least that's how I've understood the situation..

Bobsyeruncle
28-01-09, 11:00
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206

Geck-o-Lizard
28-01-09, 11:20
What do you mean by ahteists FTW? Do you think that atheists are somehow superior to religious people?

He was pointing out the fact that Israel and Palestine are at war because of their religions. The muslims and jews both feel religiously entitled to the land Israel currently sits on. Atheists don't have that problem.

raiderfun
28-01-09, 12:09
I'm from Norway. We have many Muslims here from around the world.
It feels sad to be from a free European country, yet the Israeli ambassy is protected by snipers and armed guards here.

You can't freely demonstrate. If you do, you risk being arrested.
A huge number of teenagers under 16 will have a criminal record because of this peace demonstration.

It is to be noted that a HUGE part of Norwegian demonstration are by minors who cannot be arested, yet have no political power.

Is this new ? Maybe it is a new law because of what happened last time in Oslo. Or has it been always the same ?

And as far as I know, Norway has many muslims, and its citizens are well aware of the situation in Gaza.

Just heard on the radio that Israel is prohibiting the Humanatarian Aid from entering Gaza. My heart is burning. If only I can go there... :mad:

They have also destroyed those tunnels from Egypt to Gaza. They're the gendarm of Palestine :rolleyes:

Just because Israel is a democracy doesn't mean the government are gonna listen to the majority of their people. How do you know that the majority of the Israeli people don't want peace? Have you been round and asked every one yourself?

As it happens there are Israeli's who want peace.

http://news.antiwar.com/2008/12/27/protests-across-israel-in-wake-of-gaza-attack/

Do you not think that there aren't Palestianians out there who want Israel to be destroyed. I'm not saying all Palestinians think this but there certainly are ones that do. This is a war. People on both sides want to see the other one totally obliterated.


Many Israelis want peace in fact, but they don't have the freeedom of speech, Israel's authorities/government is tough. And if some Palestinians want Israel to be destroyed, they have their reasons, well, imagine yourself on their same situation : you live peacefully, one day some troops attack you, steals your lands under the pretext that it was theirs, establish their homes on them, attack you, kill you, do countless horribles acts to you, and it's been the same for 60 years. Won't you wish the same for them, if not the worse ? Furthermore, US and EU consider Hamas as terrorist. How fair !

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 13:23
He was pointing out the fact that Israel and Palestine are at war because of their religions. The muslims and jews both feel religiously entitled to the land Israel currently sits on. Atheists don't have that problem.Religion is only the excuse these people use to justify war. It all comes down to land in the end.

Encore
28-01-09, 13:27
He was pointing out the fact that Israel and Palestine are at war because of their religions. The muslims and jews both feel religiously entitled to the land Israel currently sits on. Atheists don't have that problem.

No... They have others. The Terror period of the French Revolution was undertaken in the name of anti-religious concepts of the State. The Nazis were not religious in ideology. And communists are atheists, yet look at Cambodja or Stalin's Russia for examples of their "peacefulness". There are many forms of blind faith other than organized religion.

Furthermore I don't think the issue in the Middle East is exclusively religious anyway, it's primarily a "living space" issue.

Cochrane
28-01-09, 14:07
Interesting analogy considering that David was an Israeli.

In any case, I truly do not understand why Palestinians keep attacking Israel considering the near certainty that Israel will win any military conflict between them. Given Israel's vast military superiority, the fact that Palestine still exists is proof to me that Israel wants peace. They could have destroyed Palestine many times over by now if they really wanted to. So if all Israel wants right now is for Palestinians to stop firing missiles and planting explosives in Israeli territory, why don't they do it? It seems like a reasonable request, and as people here keep insisting, the attacks are "useless" anyway and only provoke an overreaction from Israel. So, what is the point of continuing to attack Israel if the attacks consistently do very little damage and result in Israel counterattacking? I think the first step towards peace would be for Hamas to stop posturing or threatening Israel.

Actually, it's pretty easy to understand. What else is Hamas going to do if not attack Israel? Govern the Gaza strip? They are horribly failing at that. As long as they can blame Israel for that, however, they can stay in power. If there was peace in the region, then Hamas would consist entirely out of the wrong people to keep law and order.

Encore
28-01-09, 14:10
Actually, it's pretty easy to understand. What else is Hamas going to do if not attack Israel? Govern the Gaza strip? They are horribly failing at that. As long as they can blame Israel for that, however, they can stay in power. If there was peace in the region, then Hamas would consist entirely out of the wrong people to keep law and order.

But then again, who on earth could possibly govern a country under these circunstances.. Governing pressuposes independence.

Cochrane
28-01-09, 14:13
But then again, who on earth could possibly govern a country under these circunstances.. Governing pressuposes independence.

I guess it's a vicious cycle of sorts... But it is a system that currently works for them. Not for the majority of people in the Gaza strip, obviously, but it seems like there is no large movement asking the ones in power to step down there.

Encore
28-01-09, 14:37
It's because there's no real alternative now. The world has allowed the PLO to be overrun by the Hamas, and like it or not the PLO was the closest thing to a power structure capable of ruling side by side with Israel.

Geck-o-Lizard
28-01-09, 14:52
Furthermore I don't think the issue in the Middle East is exclusively religious anyway, it's primarily a "living space" issue.

The Israel/Palestine issue IS religious, not just about living space. They both believe they're spiritually entitled to the land of Jerusalem. That's why they can't compromise.

Encore
28-01-09, 14:53
The Israel/Palestine issue IS religious, not just about living space. They both believe they're spiritually entitled to the land of Jerusalem. That's why they can't compromise.

Sorry but that's way too naive for me. You should seperate the real issues from the excuses used by war mongers to rally people to their cause.

Cochrane
28-01-09, 14:59
The Israel/Palestine issue IS religious, not just about living space. They both believe they're spiritually entitled to the land of Jerusalem. That's why they can't compromise.

Christians also used to believe they are spiritually entitled to the land, which is what the crusades were all about. Yet these days, there is no christian third party in the area.

Religion can be used as a way of enforcing cultural identity, a tool for creating a sense of "us vs. them". In that way, it certainly has a part in that issue. However, I think it's wrong to think that this is the only or main motivation for the problems there.

Angelx14
28-01-09, 15:01
:rolleyes:

Kittypower
28-01-09, 15:40
Many Israelis want peace in fact, but they don't have the freeedom of speech, Israel's authorities/government is tough. And if some Palestinians want Israel to be destroyed, they have their reasons, well, imagine yourself on their same situation : you live peacefully, one day some troops attack you, steals your lands under the pretext that it was theirs, establish their homes on them, attack you, kill you, do countless horribles acts to you, and it's been the same for 60 years. Won't you wish the same for them, if not the worse ? Furthermore, US and EU consider Hamas as terrorist. How fair !

you have no idea what your talking about, its a democracy with freedom of speech.

Israel is a representative democracy with a parliamentary system and universal suffrage. The Prime Minister serves as head of government and the Knesset serves as Israel's legislative body. In terms of nominal gross domestic product, the nation's economy is estimated as being the 44th-largest in the world. Israel ranks highest among Middle Eastern countries on the bases of human development, freedom of the press, and economic competitiveness. Jerusalem is the country's capital, seat of government, and largest city, while Israel's main financial center is Tel Aviv.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Catapharact
28-01-09, 15:59
the nation's economy is estimated as being the 44th-largest in the world.

Which would place U.A.E's, Bahrain's and Saudi Arabia's Economic standings over it. Nice try Kitty but Wiki articles are about as viable as a cow dung. Why? Anyone can write on them.

Israel ranks highest among Middle Eastern countries on the bases of human development, freedom of the press
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Both of which can be brought under question. Jerusalem Post is about as free and unbiased as Al-Jazeera. Furthermore there is proof that most Israeli intelligence documents are usually fudged. Heck Israel's own ministires are under scrutiny from its own citizens over it.

EDIT:

However, I think it's wrong to think that this is the only or main motivation for the problems there.

Because there is indeed more to it then religion. The two major factors in the Mid East conflcit are Land and Water. The Gaza refugees are worried that their given properties would overtime be claimed and taken over by Israeli settlements which BTW were being demolished under Ariel Sharn's supervision until his death. The Israeli Hardliners obviously couldn't stand it and with Olmert in power, that possibility went right out the door.

Furthermore, the conflict with the Golan Heights revolves around the water reservoir there which BTW has been tapped so deeply by Israel that sea water is now flooding in and contaminating the fresh water reserves. Obviously, Syria is ****ed over that.

Kittypower
28-01-09, 16:47
Which would place U.A.E's, Bahrain's and Saudi Arabia's Economic standings over it. Nice try Kitty but Wiki articles are about as viable as a cow dung. Why? Anyone can write on them.



Both of which can be brought under question. Jerusalem Post is about as free and unbiased as Al-Jazeera. Furthermore there is proof that most Israeli intelligence documents are usually fudged. Heck Israel's own ministires are under scrutiny from its own citizens over it.





you are right but the Israel article is protected which means only high level editors can post on it. And all facts on there articles are sourced.
As for you second points, the same thing can be argued about the new york post or time magazine. All magazines, newspapers and tv networks have spins to them. And i dought you have significant proof to "most Israeli intelligence documents are usually fudged".