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wantafanta
28-01-09, 01:50
...Pardon me for asking, but why can't I shake the idea that if this guy didn't have a gun lying around the house, then this would never have happened?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090127/ap_on_re_us/bodies_found

LA man upset over job kills wife, 5 kids, himself
By THOMAS WATKINS, Associated Press Writer

LOS ANGELES A man who fatally shot his wife, five young children and himself Tuesday had earlier faxed a note to a TV station claiming the couple had just been fired from their hospital jobs and together planned the killings as a final escape for the whole family.

"Why leave the children to a stranger?" Ervin Lupoe wrote, according to KABC-TV.

The station called police after receiving the fax, and a police dispatch center also received a call from a man who stated, "'I just returned home and my whole family's been shot."

Officers rushed to the home in Wilmington, a small community between the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, about 8:30 a.m., apparently within minutes of the killings. Officers could still smell the gunshot residue in the air.

Although the fax asserted that Ana Lupoe planning the killings of the whole family, police Lt. John Romero said Lupoe was the suspect. A revolver was found next to his body.

Ana Lupoe's body was found in a downstairs bedroom with the bodies of the couple's twin 2-year-old boys. The bodies of an 8-year-old girl, twin 5-year-old girls were found alongside Lupoe's in an upstairs bedroom.

It was the fifth mass death of a Southern California family by murder or suicide in a year. Police urged those facing tough economic times to get help rather than resort to violence

"Today our worst fear was realized," said Deputy Chief Kenneth Garner. "It's just not a solution. There's just so many ways you find alternatives to doing something so horrific and drastic as this."

...more...

spikejones
28-01-09, 01:53
Guns don't kill people. Bullets dont kill people.




People kill people.
If he was dead set on killing his family - he'd have done it with a steak knife.

gbetch
28-01-09, 01:59
People kill people. He could have used anything form a knife to a frozen turkey. If he really wanted to kill em he would have maneged with a gun or not,

Hairhelmet12
28-01-09, 02:01
Thats just horrible..thoughs poor kids..

Guns don't kill people. Bullets dont kill people.




People kill people.
If he was dead set on killing his family - he'd have done it with a steak knife.

umm..that makes no sence to me. the ssecond part..?

EmeraldFields
28-01-09, 02:01
Guns don't kill people. Bullets dont kill people.


People kill people.
If he was dead set on killing his family - he'd have done it with a steak knife.

Yes that statement is true, but guns cause more violence than a knife would.

I'm fine with responsible people having a gun, but there needs to be stricter laws on how to obtain a weapon, especially at gun shows.

The problem isn't the gun. We need to ways to discourage violence.

rmecpirate
28-01-09, 02:07
Seeing things like this just provides more proof that things need to be done to change not just gun laws, but also people in general.

gbetch
28-01-09, 02:08
i think more ppl should own guns.

If you knew someone had a gun would you attack them? No you wouldn't because you know that they could defend themselfs and you could very well wind up with a whole in your body.

Even if they made it hard to legally get guns, criminals would get them anyway, just in illegal ways. They don't care.

In my state you cna acctually open carry, wich means that you can have guns strapped to your thighs, Lara style.

Ward Dragon
28-01-09, 02:14
i think more ppl should own guns.

If you knew someone had a gun would you attack them? No you wouldn't because you know that they could defend themselfs and you could very well wind up with a whole in your body.

An armed society is a polite society :whi:

silver_wolf
28-01-09, 02:14
That could go the other way, though. More citizens carry guns = more criminals carrying better guns = more shootings.

gbetch
28-01-09, 02:19
a gun is a gun, its gonna do damage. if you felt you were in danger of getting shot, you would be less likely to try and attack someone. it's simple self preservation. i know i would try to steal someones bag if i knew they had a gun.

rmecpirate
28-01-09, 02:21
i think more ppl should own guns.

If you knew someone had a gun would you attack them? No you wouldn't because you know that they could defend themselfs and you could very well wind up with a whole in your body.

Even if they made it hard to legally get guns, criminals would get them anyway, just in illegal ways. They don't care.

In my state you cna acctually open carry, wich means that you can have guns strapped to your thighs, Lara style.

I get the idea there, 'you don't bring a knife to a gunfight' in a sense. And it's the same way with guns as it is with drugs, you make it more illegal (or whatever you want to say it) people are more eager to do it out of spite. But it doesn't exactly mean that we should be all carefree with guns.

And with that kind of talk, I am the official black sheep of my family, go figure, but it's true; guns are a double edged sword they can save a life but also take one.

Ward Dragon
28-01-09, 02:23
And with that kind of talk, I am the official black sheep of my family, go figure, but it's true; guns are a double edged sword they can save a life but also take one.

That's why guns (and drugs) should be legal but regulated.

gbetch
28-01-09, 02:25
that is true. but this is were my nateral selection speech comes in. it is in a rut, we ave ppl who are comiting crimes and getting off with nothing more than a slap on the wrist and a "no no no". this might teach criminals that if you try to hurt someone they will hurt you back. If some ppl die, oh well, we have to many ppl anyway.

EmeraldFields
28-01-09, 02:25
That's why guns (and drugs) should be legal but regulated.

I always knew you were smart, Ward Dragon!:tmb:

Quasimodo
28-01-09, 02:26
...Pardon me for asking, but why can't I shake the idea that if this guy didn't have a gun lying around the house, then this would never have happened?

Why can't I shake the idea that if this guy weren't ****ing nuts, then this would never have happened? :wve:

gbetch
28-01-09, 02:30
True. and if anyone tells you guns are no fun, they are lying, guns are freakin amazing!!!

silver_wolf
28-01-09, 02:32
Why can't I shake the idea that if this guy weren't ****ing nuts, then this would never have happened? :wve:
lol true.

Geck-o-Lizard
28-01-09, 02:33
Would he still have done it if all he had was a knife? It sounds like a plan of desperation, not sadism. Killing with a gun is considered quick, easy and painless; with a knife it's considered brutal and painful. Unless he really was just interested in murder, I don't think he would have decided to slash his children to ribbons if he hadn't had a gun for clean killing.

EmeraldFields
28-01-09, 02:33
True. and if anyone tells you guns are no fun, they are lying, guns are freakin amazing!!!

This statement scares the poop out of me.

rmecpirate
28-01-09, 02:35
That's why guns (and drugs) should be legal but regulated.

Precisely! but (trying not to go OT here) the problem is legalizing drugs would in turn **** off the people who wanted it legal in the first place, which is actually really dumb of them since they know that would be the case but still they go marching on their legal crusade. :rolleyes:

Quasimodo
28-01-09, 02:35
Would he still have done it if all he had was a knife? It sounds like a plan of desperation, not sadism. Killing with a gun is considered quick, easy and painless; with a knife it's considered brutal and painful.

Poisoning could also be relatively quick, easy, and painless, too.

gbetch
28-01-09, 02:36
don't worry, i'm sane...or logical anyway.

Gun shots are not wuick nor painless, besides, there are plenty of ways to kill someone with a knife so it is quick.

spikejones
28-01-09, 02:55
Why can't I shake the idea that if this guy weren't ****ing nuts, then this would never have happened? :wve:
hit the nail on the head.

sure it is sad that the kids had to die, but there is now TWO less crazy idiots out running the streets. They faxed a letter saying they planned it together to "escape". The gun was only an end to a means. It was an act of maniacal desperation not to have to face problems in life. The guy could have used anything in the house to kill someone with. Anything can be used as a weapon, obviously the body included. Sure a knife it messier but is no more violent than a gun is and vice versa. Hell... I've had guns and knives waved in my direction before - and it was more so the knives than the guns.

An armed society is a polite society in the words of Ward Dragon. In the words of Connan The Cimmerian (http://conan.wikia.com/wiki/Quotes_from_Robert_E._Howard%27s_Conan_stories): "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." (The Tower of the Elephant (http://conan.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tower_of_the_Elephant))which goes back to someone else's comment about every one should have guns. I think that as a general thing, the criminals are less likely to attack people if they know everyone is packing heat - or at least have good reason to suspect as much.

Does that mean that if everyone is allowed to carry guns that the criminals are going to get the biggest baddest guns out there through illegal channels - irrelevant. It already happens. The bloods, crips, latin kings, etc.. all have illegal weapons bought on the black market.

-------

guns, while certainly lethal and having ties to crime, are not to blame. its the psyche of the criminal that fuels the crime. Guns are just a more modern weapon. Obviously there are statutes in place barring convicted felons from legally possessing a firearm - but there are ways to get ones second ammendment rights back (although it practically never happens anymore). Being a convicted felon, I can't own a firearm - but I can own a replica of one - which can be used just as easily in the commission of a crime, and if caught still land me with a charge of "armed robbery". I can also go get a crossbow, compound bow, katana, braodsword, throwing knives, ninja stars, etc.. the list goes on. Crossbows and compound bows are ranged projectile weapons and can certainly be deadly - but do not qualify as a "fire arm" as there is no explosive propulsion mechanism to them. Now a compound bow may not be easily concealed - but a crossbow certainly is.

So with all the deadly weapons at the disposal of society, why must we single out GUNs as being the bad things to let people have. Hell... I think they should make pepper spray and tasers illegal for the general public to have. It'd certainly **** me off if was trying to help some lady out and she decides to tase me because I'm wearing a hoody. Its freaking cold you crazy *****!!

EmeraldFields
28-01-09, 03:00
So with all the deadly weapons at the disposal of society, why must we single out GUNs as being the bad things to let people have. Hell... I think they should make pepper spray and tasers illegal for the general public to have. It'd certainly **** me off if was trying to help some lady out and she decides to tase me because I'm wearing a hoody. Its freaking cold you crazy *****!!

LOL! My Great Grandma sleeps with a gun and pepper spray under her bed at night and she would not be happy!:D

Shrantellatessa
28-01-09, 03:05
NRA's proud now...:pi:

spikejones
28-01-09, 03:06
^proud of whom?

rowanlim
28-01-09, 03:17
Horrible story. Seems to me people these days aren't able to control/manage their emotions better than before :(

Poor victims.

Shrantellatessa
28-01-09, 03:19
^proud of whom?

Their hobby.

spikejones
28-01-09, 03:25
not sure I follow you there. is that supposed to be sarcasm? are you implying that its the NRA's fault this happened?

Shrantellatessa
28-01-09, 03:29
not sure I follow you there. is that supposed to be sarcasm? are you implying that its the NRA's fault this happened?

No, I'm not blaming them, but fighting to keep "owning a gun" as a fundamental right does contribute indirectly to incidents like this one and the five others mentioned in the article.

Wait, are you a member of NRA?

wantafanta
28-01-09, 03:31
People kill people. He could have used anything form a knife to a frozen turkey. If he really wanted to kill em he would have maneged with a gun or not,

You know, I think you're right. Why --- just last week, 5 banks were held up in Chicago with frozen turkeys! And I read that those kids in Columbine high school who killed 17 students were planning on using baseball bats. Except all the sporting goods stores were closed. So they bought machine guns instead.

And here's an idea. We could take all the guns away from our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and give them frozen turkeys. At least they'd never go hungry. And think of the money we'd save!

But seriously, how do you explain that in the entire country of Japan, where they have the strictest gun laws in the world, there are only a handful of gun deaths per year? Are the Japanese so much more civilized than Americans?

spikejones
28-01-09, 03:45
Wait, are you a member of NRA?
hardly mademoiselle. Im one of the bad guys - well, used to be any how. I've turned over a new leaf. The part of my post above:
Being a convicted felon, I can't own a firearm - but I can own a replica of one - which can be used just as easily in the commission of a crime, and if caught still land me with a charge of "armed robbery"
is not a hypothetical. Its a true story. I had a felony conviction in 2003 for which I spent 7 months in prison. Got out... got in more trouble (and a lot of drugs) and me and a "friend" attempted to rob some people with a realistic looking CO2 pellet gun. The attempt failed and we were arrested (cuz he was an idiot and did it in a well lit, heavily surveilled parking lot). I had 2 felony charges of armed robbery hanging over my head that got dropped down to common law robbery and I spent 16 months in prison for that. I'm not arguing against gun restrictions because I'm a bad person (indeed I have turned over a new leaf) - I'm arguing against gun restrictions because I understand the criminal mind, and I am an AMERICAN.

if you ask me though. most crime is drug related. and it doesn't mean its a crime involving drug deals or what not. I mean people get doped up and do illegal stuff, or they need to break the law to support their habit. (both conditions were reasons for all my crimes). So, in that instance I disagree with Ward Dragon's statement about legalizing drugs. That's gonna lead to a lot of addicts. Its not possible to eradicate them, but I guess if you legalize the stuff - be prepared to let the fiends have some free fixes so they don't go off robbing and killing people just to get high. Call it outpatient detox I guess. Let em get good and run down then bring em in for the real detox deal - otherwise let them go ahead and die as they would otherwise. Not everyone makes it out alive - its a shame. But not everyone has what it takes to get clean.

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

all the other 12 step programs use the same steps as AA substituting only the substance in question.;)

gbetch
28-01-09, 03:50
thats just gun deaths. and the frozen turkey comment was me making a point that even without guns, ppl will get killed. if someone wants to kil anther, they will use any means nessisary.

spikejones
28-01-09, 03:52
But seriously, how do you explain that in the entire country of Japan, where they have the strictest gun laws in the world, there are only a handful of gun deaths per year? Are the Japanese so much more civilized than Americans?
what's the penalty? Death? Life in prison?

the American legal/rehabilitation system is a JOKE!!

while I am grateful that I never had the book thrown at me personally, I can tell you that the legal system gives slaps on the wrist to people (as mentioned before). Serving 15 months out of a 16 month sentence for a crime that should have gotten me about 160 months - JOKE. The prison system is just too over populated as it is to keep everyone in for the full sentence. So criminals know that if they get caught - they will only be locked down momentarily.

Ward Dragon
28-01-09, 03:53
So, in that instance I disagree with Ward Dragon's statement about legalizing drugs. That's gonna lead to a lot of addicts. Its not possible to eradicate them, but I guess if you legalize the stuff - be prepared to let the fiends have some free fixes so they don't go off robbing and killing people just to get high.

Well, my knowledge on the subject is purely academic so I won't argue with your experience. My thinking was that if drugs were legal and regulated, then there would be less crime since there wouldn't be a black market. But I just realized that prescription drugs are legal and regulated and still on the black market, so I suppose my logic was flawed :o

LaraLuvrrr
28-01-09, 03:59
This is an example of how insane the so called "American Dream" is. When you have your job taken away from you you kill your family? I can't believe this idiot killed his family and himself over a stupid job. It goes to show you how obsessed people in this country are about money money money. And when it's taken away from you people go psycho... What a shame. I mean seriously there were so many other options the guy could have done to weather the unemployment storm without going insane. He should have at least just killed himself but I'm just shocked at how some of these people kill their kids and wives too.

knightgames
28-01-09, 04:28
...Pardon me for asking, but why can't I shake the idea that if this guy didn't have a gun lying around the house, then this would never have happened?

...


Mothers have killed their children in bath tubs. Others have driven them into lakes to let them drown and blamed someone else.

All killings like these are symptoms of a sick mind. The end to justfy their means (in this case) happened to be a gun. The children drowned in the tub are just as dead as the children in the bedrooms with gunshot wounds.

Either way it's horribly sad, and sickens me. RIP to those children.

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 06:02
Guns don't kill people. Bullets dont kill people.




People kill people.
If he was dead set on killing his family - he'd have done it with a steak knife.This :tmb:

An armed nation is a free nation.

NRA's proud now...:pi:Of course not. The NRA aren't murderers.

calico25
28-01-09, 08:42
The Brits want their guns back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTq2NEUlhDE


This is an example of how insane the so called "American Dream" is. When you have your job taken away from you you kill your family? I can't believe this idiot killed his family and himself over a stupid job. It goes to show you how obsessed people in this country are about money money money. And when it's taken away from you people go psycho... What a shame. I mean seriously there were so many other options the guy could have done to weather the unemployment storm without going insane. He should have at least just killed himself but I'm just shocked at how some of these people kill their kids and wives too.

unreal. So, people with obvious mental disorders only live in America and are made of the "American Dream". :/

Rileigh
28-01-09, 10:12
...Pardon me for asking, but why can't I shake the idea that if this guy didn't have a gun lying around the house, then this would never have happened?


It may not have.

Whatever people say about "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Well guns sure make it a hell of lot easier. There is only one possible use for a gun, and it's sickening that the means to injure and take life is so accessible and encouraged???

Besides, like that tragedy in Belgium, if the nutter has a knife, then there is more chance someone will survive.
With a gun.......

Mr.Burns
28-01-09, 10:13
I own a shotgun. Mostly for home defense but also for duck hunting (if I can find the time). I hope I never have to use it but here's a taste of what can happen here:

If someone breaks into my home, I shoot them but they survive, I can be sued by the intruder for assault/attempted murder. Even if I give them ample warning to leave the premises, called the cops and the man is armed with a gun. An unarmed man I wouldn't shoot.

So what is one to do if they have a break in? Shoot to kill. If they're dead, they can't sue you. Thus if faced with an armed intruder, I may be forced to kill to save my life and my financial life as well. Can't use a stun gun here since they're illegal. Pepper spray can be ineffective. A knife may not be effective if in the untrained hands. Run and hide? Doesn't always work if the intruder has other intentions in mind and I don't deal with what ifs.

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 10:17
for some reason I don't adhere to the silly idea of "if everyone had guns it'd be a better society".just because everyone has guns doesn't mean they cancel each other out!!it's not math people...it's society we're dealing with here...:rolleyes:

Rileigh
28-01-09, 10:22
for some reason I don't adhere to the silly idea of "if everyone had guns it'd be a better society".just because everyone has guns doesn't mean they cancel each other out!!it's not math people...it's society we're dealing with here...:rolleyes:

true.

And sad as it is, I know someone who had a complete break down when they went to university.
In America, they would have grabbed a gun, blasted half their class and finished himself off.
But here, couldn't do that, no access to a gun. Sad ending that he killed himself before he could get help, but at least there were no other physical casualties.

MrBear
28-01-09, 10:41
Killing with a gun is considered quick, easy and painless

This is why I'm against having firearms in most homes.. Too many people are given the option of the surreal killing, a killing that they perhaps cannot grasp the severity of because it's a cunning device of machinery and a projectile, and thus find it easier to commit the crime they unfortunately want to do.. It's not like every crime committed with a firearm would've taken place if they instead of a gun had a knife or similar weapons.. I don't have a problem with Americans wanting to protect themselves and their families, but it's the result of this, how arming a whole population can backfire (no pun intended), that I'm worried about..

School shootings are some of the incidents that make my stomach turn the most.. I'm just so very thankful that it hasn't happened in Denmark yet, and I pray it will end in the US too, and less accessible weapons would probably do the trick..

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 13:18
for some reason I don't adhere to the silly idea of "if everyone had guns it'd be a better society".just because everyone has guns doesn't mean they cancel each other out!!it's not math people...it's society we're dealing with here...:rolleyes:Arming everyone in society is obviously not a good idea because you'd also be giving the idiots guns as well. However, I do think it's important that law abiding citizens have access to guns. Banning guns only stops the law abiding citizens from getting them, not the criminals. Even though here in the UK we have ridiculously strict gun control laws, shootings aren't unheard of. This is why I'm a big advocate of at least arming our police officers with guns.

interstellardave
28-01-09, 13:29
There was a story just a couple days ago about a man who got into a day-care center (or something like it) and stabbed some workers and children to death. Stabbed. I did not bring up guns in that thread because it would have been tasteless... but, you see, it's the impulse to kill that kills, and a knife can be every bit as effective as a gun.

Rileigh
28-01-09, 13:57
There was a story just a couple days ago about a man who got into a day-care center (or something like it) and stabbed some workers and children to death. Stabbed. I did not bring up guns in that thread because it would have been tasteless... but, you see, it's the impulse to kill that kills, and a knife can be every bit as effective as a gun.

But had that nutter had a gun, he would have undoubtedly killed a lot more, specially the staff there.

Arming everyone in society is obviously not a good idea because you'd also be giving the idiots guns as well. However, I do think it's important that law abiding citizens have access to guns. Banning guns only stops the law abiding citizens from getting them, not the criminals. Even though here in the UK we have ridiculously strict gun control laws, shootings aren't unheard of. This is why I'm a big advocate of at least arming our police officers with guns.

Like this guy??

Encore
28-01-09, 14:06
...Pardon me for asking, but why can't I shake the idea that if this guy didn't have a gun lying around the house, then this would never have happened?


A suicidal person will always find ways to do what he wants. Obviously I support strict control of gun ownership, I just thought I'd point that out.

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 14:07
Like this guy??That guy was obviously not in a stable state of mind. This is what background checks are for.

interstellardave
28-01-09, 14:13
But had that nutter had a gun, he would have undoubtedly killed a lot more, specially the staff there.

Not necessarily... people that get shot just don't die automatically. You still have to shoot straight and hit the right places. It's easier with a knife because it's up close and personal.

Besides, I don't like how people break this down into a numbers game... that's pretty crass too. The numbers game also suggests that if someone breaks into your home with a gun your best chance of surviving is to have a gun yourself--at least then the invader has to decide whether he wants to chance it. If you have nothing and he has a gun, you're S.O.L. Criminals who are confronted forcefully typically flee... and it happens all the time, that's just not news.

Rileigh
28-01-09, 14:15
^^ So would you shoot someone?? If you had a gun, and someone broke into your home and had a firearm. Safe to assume they aren't there to welcome you to the neighbourhood with a card and some flowers.

That guy was obviously not in a stable state of mind. This is what background checks are for.

Then why did he have a gun??

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 14:25
Then why did he have a gun??Maybe the guy who sold him the gun sold it to him when he shouldn't have, or maybe this guy got the gun illegally. This is the thing, we don't know enough about this to go around making assumptions.

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 14:25
That guy was obviously not in a stable state of mind. This is what background checks are for.

what the hell would a background check accomplish?what about those who don't have a criminal record,but are psychos in disguise?hell,maybe not even an examination from a psychiatrist isn't enough...some psychos know how to hide themselves well!!:pi:

Rileigh
28-01-09, 14:28
Maybe the guy who sold him the gun sold it to him when he shouldn't have, or maybe this guy got the gun illegally. This is the thing, we don't know enough about this to go around making assumptions.

Well damn. It's not like some one buying alcohol underage or sneaking into a club, it's a gun. Guns are created to kill. You shouldn't be able to just go out and buy one.

"Oh I'm sorry, he looked like a regular customer, how was I supposed to know he would go psycho and murder his family"

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 14:30
what the hell would a background check accomplish?what about those who don't have a criminal record,but are psychos in disguise?hell,maybe not even an examination from a psychiatrist isn't enough...some psychos know how to hide themselves well!!:pi:People with history of mental illnesses aren't allowed to buy guns I think.

Well damn. It's not like some one buying alcohol underage or sneaking into a club, it's a gun. Guns are created to kill. You shouldn't be able to just go out and buy one.

"Oh I'm sorry, he looked like a regular customer, how was I supposed to know he would go psycho and murder his family"That's why there are background checks.

interstellardave
28-01-09, 14:30
The guy just snapped, that's all. That's why he could just as easily have killed his wife and child with a knife... how hard would that have really been?

As for would I shoot someone? Well, I don't have a gun, actually... but I support the right to own a gun. I have an alarm system and live in a very good, stable neighborhood though. I feel pretty safe in my home. If I lived in a bad area I'd see about getting a gun... and, yes, I would shoot if my, and my wifes', lives were threatened. Why wouldn't anyone? No-one else is going to protect you; the police aren't there...

What would you do?

Rileigh
28-01-09, 14:39
There were five children, dunno how old though, but if he had a knife the chances that one of them could have given him the slip were signifcantly higher.

Well, I'd freak out, because there wouldn't be a gun in my house. I've had a knife waved in front of me before, and that was freaky, but it hasn't made me think "should carry a weapon round with me just in case".

Besides, the laws here don't keep you safe. You could have been protecting youself or family, but you'd still end up in jail.


That's why there are background checks.

But here we're going in circles.
If there are background checks, how did he get hold of a gun??

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 14:42
People with history of mental illnesses aren't allowed to buy guns I think.

well,this guy didn't have a history of mental illnesses.this is my whole point here.:pi:

If he DID have a history,then why they gave him a gun?obviously there would be something wrong with the system if they were giving guns to psychos..


EDIT:

There were five children, dunno how old though, but if he had a knife the chances that one of them could have given him the slip were signifcantly higher.

yes,exactly!!I was gonna say that,bravo..:tmb:

I can see many psychos being put off of the idea of using a knife,it's too risky..

Draco
28-01-09, 14:42
...Pardon me for asking, but why can't I shake the idea that if this guy didn't have a gun lying around the house, then this would never have happened?

Because in at some point in your life you abandoned reality and choose propogandality.

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 14:46
But here we're going in circles.
If there are background checks, how did he get hold of a gun??I just gave you reasons. As I said, we don't know enough about the situation so we can't just jump to conclusions.

Encore
28-01-09, 14:48
The guy just snapped, that's all. That's why he could just as easily have killed his wife and child with a knife... how hard would that have really been?

As for would I shoot someone? Well, I don't have a gun, actually... but I support the right to own a gun. I have an alarm system and live in a very good, stable neighborhood though. I feel pretty safe in my home. If I lived in a bad area I'd see about getting a gun... and, yes, I would shoot if my, and my wifes', lives were threatened. Why wouldn't anyone? No-one else is going to protect you; the police aren't there...

What would you do?

That's the whole point, there are billions of possible scenarios, and things aren't that straightforward... I don't have anything against a normal person having a small weapon in their home just in case, because they live in a dangerous area, etc. I do have something against a system that allows kids and gangsters and lunatics to easily get hold of weapons. I mean, we're always talking about the dangers that suposedly make it OK for you to own a gun and protect yourself, but what about that guy who shot someone in the movies the other day - what about the danger posed to me, of being shot by a lunatic while watching a movie just because he has easy access to guns???

interstellardave
28-01-09, 14:54
That's the whole point, there are billions of possible scenarios, and things aren't that straightforward... I don't have anything against a normal person having a small weapon in their home just in case, because they live in a dangerous area, etc. I do have something against a system that allows kids and gangsters and lunatics to easily get hold of weapons. I mean, we're always talking about the dangers that suposedly make it OK for you to own a gun and protect yourself, but what about that guy who shot someone in the movies the other day - what about the danger posed to me, of being shot by a lunatic while watching a movie just because he has easy access to guns???

Then you have to get rid of guns altogether... otherwise people can get them; criminals will always get them. Hey, if we can rid the world of ALL weapons you won't see me complaining... but that's not going to happen.

People ignore the harder solution 'cause they don't want to think about it.... what makes people kill? What about society makes people feel hopeless, feel the need to turn to crime or kill themselves and others in despair?

THAT'S the real issue, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Our modern society has not lived up the the promise of being "civilized" and of promoting Mans' highest values. The overmedication of the general populace is a big part of all this too. I have to wonder what medications he was on? No-one will want that to be part of the story, though.

Encore
28-01-09, 14:58
Then you have to get rid of guns altogether... otherwise people can get them; criminals will always get them. Hey, if we can rid the world of ALL weapons you won't see me complaining... but that's not going to happen.

People ignore the harder solution 'cause they don't want to think about it.... what makes people kill? What about society makes people feel hopeless, feel the need to turn to crime or kill themselves and others in despair?

THAT'S the real issue, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Our modern society has not lived up the the promise of being "civilized" and of promoting Mans' highest values. The overmedication of the general populace is a big part of all this too. I have to wonder what medications he was on? No-one will want that to be part of the story, though.

Sounds to me like you turned utopian in the blink of an eye. :p First you say it's impossible to get rid of guns but then you say the solution is removing the human trait of violence altogether... :p Well, people have been killing each other long before the modern society appeared so... This is a little too generic and from a society building, lawmaking point of view, it's completely unhelpful.

A tighter control on guns means less guns around. Less is better. That's all. Of course it doesn't eliminate all of them.. It just makes it easier to control them.

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 15:02
I think cracking down on illegal arms dealing is what the US government needs to work on. After all, most criminals get their guns illegally.

interstellardave
28-01-09, 15:08
Sounds to me like you turned utopian in the blink of an eye. :p First you say it's impossible to get rid of guns but then you say the solution is removing the human trait of violence altogether... :p Well, people have been killing each other long before the modern society appeared so... This is a little too generic and from a society building, lawmaking point of view, it's completely unhelpful.

A tighter control on guns means less guns around. Less is better. That's all. Of course it doesn't eliminate all of them.. It just makes it easier to control them.

I didn't say totally remove it from the human psyche... what I said, and I think it's demonstrable, is that modern society, as stressful as it is (far more so than a primitive culture) and the use of psychiatric drugs, and all the other environmental influences we are exposed to cause more people to do these things when they otherwise would not.

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 15:19
I think cracking down on illegal arms dealing is what the US government needs to work on. After all, most criminals get their guns illegally.

yes.finally you say something that makes sense:p

ok people....I really want you to start thinking about criminals and what kind of crimes they actually do.criminals are (mostly) embroiled in either gang wars or robbing places/banks.criminals have guns to either go rob a place or go shoot someone that actually ALREADY has an illegal gun/is a criminal (member of opposing gang,for example).

Now,let's say you give a gun to a law-abiding citizen.Is that citizen gonna go take his gun and warn the criminals to stop their crimes?hell no.said law-abiding citizen would just have it for him/herself....

what I'm trying to say is that giving guns to law-abiding citizens doesn't fix the problem that I mentioned above...

Draco
28-01-09, 15:20
yes.finally you say something that makes sense:p

ok people....I really want you to start thinking about criminals and what kind of crimes they actually do.criminals are (mostly) embroiled in either gang wars or robbing places/banks.criminals have guns to either go rob a place or go shoot someone that actually ALREADY has an illegal gun/is a criminal (member of opposing gang,for example).

Now,let's say you give a gun to a law-abiding citizen.Is that citizen gonna go take his gun and warn the criminals to stop their crimes?hell no.said law-abiding citizen would just have it for him/herself....

what I'm trying to say is that giving guns to law-abiding citizens doesn't fix the problem that I mentioned above...

What makes you so sure of that?

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 15:24
I'm not suggesting that law-abiding citizens are given firearms, I'm just saying that they should have access to them. And yes, a law-abiding citizen could help solve the situation. If there's an armed bank robbery taking place and several customers and/or staff at the bank are armed then the situation could be easily diffused without anyone besides the robbers getting hurt.

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 15:31
What makes you so sure of that?

oh,I'm pretty sure.....no logical law-abiding citizen wouldn't stick his nose where it doesn't belong,unless said person had a deathwish...

citizens aren't police!!

Twilight
28-01-09, 15:35
more mentally unstable people doing crazy things in the news. :rolleyes:

if the guy was so dead set on killing, he could have used a knife, pen, or even his hands to kill.

interstellardave
28-01-09, 15:36
It's true that most people want a gun for self-defense because law enforcement--and the criminal justice system as a whole--is viewed for what it is: a joke. For whatever reason, and they are many, criminals either just aren't caught, or are caught and let go with just a slap on the wrist. Police time is wasted on too many things that they shouldn't have to spend time on, too--like consensual crimes; what a joke that whole catagory of "crime" is!

AmericanAssassin
28-01-09, 15:36
I will own a gun. If an intruder enters my home, I will intend to kill them. I'm not going to pay for their stupidity, and I'm certainly not going to let them kill me...

Draco
28-01-09, 15:38
oh,I'm pretty sure.....no logical law-abiding citizen wouldn't stick his nose where it doesn't belong,unless said person had a deathwish...

citizens aren't police!!

So you are now saying they would be good for the whole?

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 15:46
So you are now saying they would be good for the whole?

who?criminals?I'm not saying they are good...what I'm trying to say is that police should do a better job at getting the illegal arms off the streets and that giving law-abiding citizens guns wouldn't bring the crime rate down much...instead we;ll be having more psychos running around killing their families and more shool shootings..

even a normal person can snap in the heat of the moment and kill someone...

Eddie Haskell
28-01-09, 15:46
A completely armed society is the nightmare scenario for the police and law enforcement in general. Every disturbance and every call would be treated much differently and far more violently. We would need RoboCop to deal with this kind of society. The wild west days should be long gone.

And here (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2172423/posts) is a look into what it may look like.

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 15:56
A completely armed society is the nightmare scenario for the police and law enforcement in general. Every disturbance and every call would be treated much differently and far more violently. We would need RoboCop to deal with this kind of society. The wild west days should be long gone.

And here (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2172423/posts) is a look into what it may look like.You do know that these kinds of incidents are extremely rare?

Rileigh
28-01-09, 15:57
Okay okay. Say it's fine to have a gun for self defence purposes and that it will deter any possible intruders if they think "Ah, this person has a gun, skip their house, won't bother them, coz I could end up getting shot." Which, okay. Unless they shot you first, it'd be a one way ticket to the nick.

What about when some dad loses it and shoots his family dead.
He could have used a knife, he could have drugged them all, could have set fire to the house. But even so, each of these ways leaves the chance that one of those kids could have gotten out, could have gotten away.

Maybe he wasn't that dead set on killing them. Perhaps the reason he decided to kill them all was because there was a handy gun just right for the job whereas if there hadn't been, he would have killed himself, perhaps attacked his kids and wife, maybe killed some of them... whatever.

Point is, he used a gun.

If it were a knife attack, would the subject of guns be brought up?? Because we all know guns are really only good for one thing.



even a normal person can snap in the heat of the moment and kill someone...


yes, and someone who is not well trained could be startled and far too trigger friendly at an oncoming threat because in a state of panic, it's fight or flight.

Eddie Haskell
28-01-09, 16:05
You do know that these kinds of incidents are extremely rare?

I take it you did not get the point. Most large population centers have laws against citizens packing pieces, but in the scenario like a modern day return to the "wild west days", incidents like this one would be commonplace. Situations that would simply result in a physical confrontation or simply shouting could easily result in a shootout. More guns is not the answer. Arming everyone is a recipe for anarchy and a step back for civilization.

Rileigh
28-01-09, 16:07
I take it you did not get the point. Most large population centers have laws against citizens packing pieces, but in the scenario like a modern day return to the "wild west days", incidents like this one would be commonplace. Situations that would simply result in a physical confrontation or simply shouting could easily result in a shootout. More guns is not the answer. Arming everyone is a recipe for anarchy and a step back for civilization.

Especially as knife crimes are on the rise (well, they are here, dunno bout other places) and with those kind of irresponsible idiots, the last thing you want to do is say "here, have a gun"

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 16:09
What about when some dad loses it and shoots his family dead.
He could have used a knife, he could have drugged them all, could have set fire to the house. But even so, each of these ways leaves the chance that one of those kids could have gotten out, could have gotten away.So? There's a chance that one of the kids could've gotten away or survived if the man was using a gun. What you're doing here is just speculating.

I take it you did not get the point. Most large population centers have laws against citizens packing pieces, but in the scenario like a modern day return to the "wild west days", incidents like this one would be commonplace. Situations that would simply result in a physical confrontation or simply shouting could easily result in a shootout. More guns is not the answer. Arming everyone is a recipe for anarchy and a step back for civilization.Who here said everyone should be armed?

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 16:14
Who here said everyone should be armed?

and exactly who should be armed?how can one say with certainty that person A won't go crazy and kill someone??

Rileigh
28-01-09, 16:15
So? There's a chance that one of the kids could've gotten away or survived if the man was using a gun. What you're doing here is just speculating.


Do you not know how a gun works??

Do you not understand that with a knife you run to one person, stab, run to the next, stab

Whereas a gun you stand in the door way, *bang bang bang*

He has a knife, kids running away, he has to chase them

He has a gun, kids running away *bang*

interstellardave
28-01-09, 16:15
Especially as knife crimes are on the rise (well, they are here, dunno bout other places) and with those kind of irresponsible idiots, the last thing you want to do is say "here, have a gun"

Knife crimes are on the rise perhaps because of gun control measures? But I daresay it doesn't make you feel better to be killed by a knife... or wounded by one. I must also keep reminding you that most gunshot victims don't die. If those kids died it's because they were close and taken off guard--and they could have been victims of a knife under those conditions as well. Besides, even if a guy kills 2 people with a knife where he might have killed 4 with a gun, it's still not good.

That's why concentrating on guns only goes so far--and completely ignores the real issue, as I've been saying. Society itself is dysfunctional--it's creating killers. Yeah, killing has always been done... but normal people just "snapping" and killing for no apparent reason whatsoever? That hasn't been so common throughout history as it is now.

That needs to be looked at seriously. Instead of guns (or in addition to guns) physciatric drugs should be looked at. Their overuse, their side-effects, etc. Steps should be taken to heal society in general so that more families stay together... there are numerous things wrong with modern society that don't have to be that way, or don't have to be nearly as bad as they are.

Eddie Haskell
28-01-09, 16:16
So? There's a chance that one of the kids could've gotten away or survived if the man was using a gun. What you're doing here is just speculating.

Who here said everyone should be armed?

You responded to my post addressing that issue. Maybe you did not read it correctly?

Mad Tony
28-01-09, 16:18
and exactly who should be armed?how can one say with certainty that person A won't go crazy and kill someone??Law abiding citizens should have access to firearms for self-defense.

Do you not know how a gun works??

Do you not understand that with a knife you run to one person, stab, run to the next, stab

Whereas a gun you stand in the door way, *bang bang bang*

He has a knife, kids running away, he has to chase them

He has a gun, kids running away *bang*

Knife crimes are on the rise perhaps because of gun control measures? But I daresay it doesn't make you feel better to be killed by a knife... or wounded by one. I must also keep reminding you that most gunshot victims don't die. If those kids died it's because they were close and taken off guard--and they could have been victims of a knife under those conditions as well. Besides, even if a guy kills 2 people with a knife where he might have killed 4 with a gun, it's still not good.

That's why concentrating on guns only goes so far--and completely ignores the real issue, as I've been saying. Society itself is dysfunctional--it's creating killers. Yeah, killing has always been done... but normal people just "snapping" and killing for no apparent reason whatsoever? That hasn't been so common throughout history as it is now.

That needs to be looked at seriously. Instead of guns (or in addition to guns) physciatric drugs should be looked at. Their overuse, their side-effects, etc. Steps should be taken to heal society in general so that more families stay together... there are numerous things wrong with modern society that don't have to be that way, or don't have to be nearly as bad as they are.This :tmb:

Rileigh
28-01-09, 16:23
Knife crimes are on the rise perhaps because of gun control measures? But I daresay it doesn't make you feel better to be killed by a knife... or wounded. If a guy kills 2 people with a knife where he might have killed 4 with a gun, it's still not good.

That's why concentrating on guns only goes so far--and completely ignores the real issue, as I've been saying. Society itself is dysfunctional--it's creating killers. Yeah, killing has always been done... but normal people just "snapping" and killing for no apparent reason whatsoever? That hasn't been so common throughout history as it is now.

That needs to be looked at seriously. Instead of guns (or in addition to guns) physciatric drugs should be looked at. Their overuse, their side-effects, etc. Steps should be taken to heal society in general so that more families stay together... there are numerous things wrong with modern society that don't have to be that way, or don't have to be nearly as bad as they are.

It's not good, no. But two steps from hell better!!
Oh yes, the whole logic and psychology behind it would be fascinating. Perhaps until the real problem is understood, we should stop arming this dysfunctional society with such dangerous weapons.;)

The rise in knife crime is not because of gun control measures, they're just *******s who don't care for the consequences. It's "cool" to get in a drunk fight and stick a knife in someone. This confusion between fear and respect amongst the "lesser acheivers"


TBH, living in a society such as the one you have just described knowing that anyone down my street could have a gun is simply terrifying.

Eddie Haskell
28-01-09, 16:25
Law abiding citizens should have access to firearms for self-defense.



This :tmb:

Everyone is law abiding until they commit a crime. And most violent crimes are crimes of passion, done at the spur of the moment and without much thought. Anyone can become a killer if the right environment presents itself. Making it easier and more efficient to kill is only going to make these moments more and more deadly.

Attacking or killing someone is a lot easier using a gun than a knife, I can tell you from first hand experience. Not only are you close enough to smell the person and look into his eyes, you have to use the weapon effectively and with a lot of power. Now with the gun it is simple, efficient and impersonal. In other words, a lot easier, cleaner and even more deadly.

Draco
28-01-09, 16:26
Why is a gun terrifying? If anything I'd get more worked up about things I see in other cars on the road.

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 16:27
That's why concentrating on guns only goes so far--and completely ignores the real issue, as I've been saying. Society itself is dysfunctional--it's creating killers. Yeah, killing has always been done... but normal people just "snapping" and killing for no apparent reason whatsoever? That hasn't been so common throughout history as it is now.

That needs to be looked at seriously. Instead of guns (or in addition to guns) physciatric drugs should be looked at. Their overuse, their side-effects, etc. Steps should be taken to heal society in general so that more families stay together... there are numerous things wrong with modern society that don't have to be that way, or don't have to be nearly as bad as they are.

^I agree with that,BUT...until we reach a point where humans are more mentally stable,we should outlaw guns..

Law abiding citizens should have access to firearms for self-defense.



This :tmb:

well,the guy that WF mentioned in the first post was law-abiding,right?so...we're running around in circles here...

Rileigh
28-01-09, 16:30
^^only because some can't let go of the idea that gun ownerhship amongst the average citizen is a terrible idea.

Why is a gun terrifying? If anything I'd get more worked up about things I see in other cars on the road.

Because a car was not created as a killing machine. It was meant for transportation.

Doesn't stop there being irresponsible drivers on the road, no, but the same can be said for anything and everything.

A gun however was created for the sole purpose of injuring and killing.

Now with the gun it is simple, efficient and impersonal. In other words, a lot easier, cleaner and even more deadly.

Law abiding citizens should have access to firearms for self-defense.


The problem is that so many people pass as law abiding citizens, and the more firearms you get out there, the easier it is for one to fall into the wrong hands.


This :tmb:

that's not really an answer.

spikejones
28-01-09, 16:33
If there are background checks, how did he get hold of a gun??
AFAIK the only requirements to owning a gun is not to have a felony conviction. Not sure about psychological issues. Although there has been talk about legislation to keep disabled war veterans from owning a gun, and I'm not sure if they are talking about physically disabled or people with PTSD. So.. they have cool down periods last I heard so that someone doesnt get ****ed off one day and decide to buy a gun at the local shop then turn around and kill the ******* that ****ed them off. BUT.. if you already own a gun - that process is useless. And people will always get stuff on the black market if not available legally.

THAT'S the real issue, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Our modern society has not lived up the the promise of being "civilized" and of promoting Mans' highest values. The overmedication of the general populace is a big part of all this too. I have to wonder what medications he was on? No-one will want that to be part of the story, though.
well, we havent lived up to "civilization" because civilization is unnatural. barbarism is the natural course of humanity. But yeah... availability of having weapons at the store does not make it more likely that crimes (murder or whatever) will happen. Its in the mind of the criminal. Whatever the criminal mind can encompass will happen. It may be robbing a bank with a piece of paper (note) and nothing else. Or it may be flying a jet into a building.
Do you not know how a gun works??

Do you not understand that with a knife you run to one person, stab, run to the next, stab

Whereas a gun you stand in the door way, *bang bang bang*

He has a knife, kids running away, he has to chase them

He has a gun, kids running away *bang*
so just becuase someone has a gun they automatically will hit everything they aim at? One man shooting at 6 people implies either:

A) he was a really good, fast shot
B) the kids were restrained to keep from moving
C) the kids wanted to die and didnt run

I guarantee you that in reality 1 man of average skill shooting at 6 people there is a great chance that 5 people who dont want to get shot will get out alive.

Rileigh
28-01-09, 16:41
so just becuase someone has a gun they automatically will hit everything they aim at? One man shooting at 6 people implies either:

A) he was a really good, fast shot
B) the kids were restrained to keep from moving
C) the kids wanted to die and didnt run

I guarantee you that in reality 1 man of average skill shooting at 6 people there is a great chance that 5 people who dont want to get shot will get out alive.

I've fired a gun before at a funny church event. Air rifle. There were about 20 targets in total. Standing from one position, it really wasn't hard to hit, except for the long range targets that were 100+ meters away or something.
Even my brother could hit the targets. And so could the guy's (who brought the air rifle) 7 yr old son.

That's why I hate guns. There is no actual skill involved. The kids were ages 2, was it 4 or 5?? and 8. Not such hard targets....

interstellardave
28-01-09, 16:44
I've fired a gun before at a funny church event. Air rifle. There were about 20 targets in total. Standing from one position, it really wasn't hard to hit, except for the long range targets that were 100+ meters away or something.
Even my brother could hit the targets. And so could the guy's (who brought the air rifle) 7 yr old son.

That's why I hate guns. There is no actual skill involved. The kids were ages 2, was it 4 or 5?? and 8. Not such hard targets....

Those targets weren't moving... that's why he said the kids may have been restrained... or simply asleep. Or just frozen in fear. All of which supports the knife-would-be-just-as-effective stance. It's not easy to hit moving targets with a gun, or stationary targets when you are moving. Videogames make it seem commonplace but, if you want to hit what you are shooting at reliably both you and the target should be stationary.

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 16:52
^ I don't really think the real issue here is whether it's easier to use a knife or to use a gun,but most people would be more confident in using a gun and completely putt off on using a knife (because they might think something can go wrong with a knife)

Rileigh
28-01-09, 16:53
Those targets weren't moving... that's why he said the kids may have been restrained... or simply asleep. Or just frozen in fear. All of which supports the knife-would-be-just-as-effective stance. It's not easy to hit moving targets with a gun, or stationary targets when you are moving. Videogames make it seem commonplace but, if you want to hit what you are shooting at reliably both you and the target should be stationary.

Who said the targets weren't moving?? It's harder to hit a moving target, but one that is not moving so fast can take a shot or two to get used to where you need to aim. A 3-D thinker is more likely to hit a moving target the first time because they instinctively know to allow for movement, also, anyone with half a brain should be able to figure it out anyway.
And besides, if you miss, you aren't carrying a musket. It isn't going to take a minute to reload.

So what if a knife would have been just as effective in this case? Does that justify having a gun??
"Give them a gun, why not. If we didn't he would just use a knife."
Because that helps matters, it really does.
There are still going to be wrong hands that may not be so lethal otherwise.

Besides, whatever you say, here there may be knife crimes, but it is mostly "troubled youths" to put it as nicely as possible which is a problem in most countries....possibly. They all have some kind of gangs or something.
Not a recently sacked father coming home and murdering his family.

The main point is, a seven year old could go on a killing spree with a gun it is that deadly and easy to use.

spikejones
28-01-09, 17:01
you also fail to see the fact that an air rifle is not a true representation of what it is like to fire a real gun. I've fired a twelve gauge rifle before at the state fair turkey shoot - and there's a few things you actually have to think about in order to actually hit what you are aiming at. Mainly you have to account for the kick-back. Being a kid and not so strong as the more seasoned shooter's - I knew from being talked throught the process of shooting the gun that it was going to kick. I also knew that I was most likely not going to be able to keep the barrel down as effectively - so I aimed low. and WON against seasoned shooters.

heres an example of what happens when you dont account for kick back:
cjMADPkivxM

If I'm not mistaken, thats actually a video of one of our own forum member's girl friend.;)

CerebralAssassin
28-01-09, 17:10
ok,this is REALLY getting freaky here...ok so let's assume that it's easier to kill with a knife than a gun.Then,why the HELL is it necessary to buy a gun in the first place?why do say you feel safer with a gun?wouldn't a knife just do the trick?!?:hea::hea::hea::hea:

knightgames
28-01-09, 17:16
This wasn't a gun crime per say. These kids would have died by another means if firearms weren't available.

These were deeply disturbed individuals who (to them) lost all they had and couldn't come up with a better solution to correct their predicament. That's all it was. Horrible? yes. Frightening that someone can lose it like this? yes. A murder caused by guns? no

Guns have absolutely nothing to do with this suicide. The man was intent on doing what he did regardless of the means. The gun was a method of convenience only. Make no mistake, the family was dead the moment they came up with the idea.



Oh, and guns are already getting into the wrong hands. THOSE are the folks causing murder and mayhem. Where I live there were about 55 shootings of which a good portion died last year in the local big city. Almost all were innercity youth who gang banged for territory or revenge. Not one of them were legal gun owners. Many of the victims were caught in the crossfire of these hoodlums.

Show me where responsible card carrying legal gun owners have commited such acts. (barring mental illness or collapse) The overwhelming majority understand the responsabilty of owning a gun. They take care to lock it safely. They keep it away from kids. They register the firearm.

There are exceptions. It's the few stories like the one we're disscussing now that make the responsible ones look bad. (not negating the heinousness of the attack) The vast majority are law abiding responsible folks who take owning a gun very serious.

I myself do not own a gun, and never will.


http://richardgarnerlib.blogspot.com/2007/05/facts-about-guns-and-violence.html

interstellardave
28-01-09, 17:16
Okay, if I had a gun I wouldn't kill anyone with it, instead of possibly in self defense. The gun would be a non-lethal object otherwise... I can assure you, short of self defense, that gun wouldn't harm a fly... because I haven't even HIT another person in anger since I was a child--and that was forced upon me.

But, you say, I can't be trusted... I may snap and kill people with that gun! So you take my gun to render me harmless--when I haven't even done anything wrong yet!

Still, the main issue remains... I may snap at any moment. My wife is alone in the house with me--she's clearly not safe. I could kill her easily in her sleep with ANY object, even a pillow.

Perhaps, for my wifes' safety, I should be locked up now?

If that sounds snide, it is... it's also a perfect representation of anti-gun thinking. People are assumed to be a risk before they are. Where does it stop? You tell me, 'cause I just logically showed that I could snap at any time and my wifes' life could be taken without any problem whatsoever... even without a gun.

You either trust people, until they are proven to be a problem, or you don't. If you don't you simply can't stop at guns. If you do then you can let them own a gun at home... IF they snap and kill their family, then, it's a tragedy for sure. But it shouldn't take someones' ability to defend themselves and their family away--and guns are used to equalize the weak and the strong. That's why they are important in a world where criminals are allowed to run free.

ok,this is REALLY getting freaky here...ok so let's assume that it's easier to kill with a knife than a gun.Then,why the HELL is it necessary to buy a gun in the first place?why do say you feel safer with a gun?wouldn't a knife just do the trick?!?:hea::hea::hea::hea:

This was a guy killing his little kids. He is strong, they are weak. He could have used anything but he used a gun.

He could also have possibly used that gun to stop criminals in his home threatening those very same children... where he may be outnumbered and they may be bigger than him. In such a situation a knife would be next to useless. And IF THAT had happened, would there be an anti-gun thread about it? No, because those things do happen but they aren't popular stories to run.... the media is all anti-gun. Anything positive about guns will be ignored.

spikejones
28-01-09, 17:30
ok,this is REALLY getting freaky here...ok so let's assume that it's easier to kill with a knife than a gun.Then,why the HELL is it necessary to buy a gun in the first place?why do say you feel safer with a gun?wouldn't a knife just do the trick?!?:hea::hea::hea::hea:
because people see a gun as making them all powerful, perhaps making up for what they lack between their legs. Not all people are like that - but some people view it as a phallic extension. Indeed if things were different and people starting commiting crimes with a crossbow - the world would scream "make those things illegal" or if people started running around with katanas and robbing/killing people - the world will scream "make those things illegal" Its just that a gun is more modern - but those aforementioned weapons have one sole purpose - to take a life. Yet no one screams about them ;)

calico25
29-01-09, 00:23
the person that said shooting a gun involves no skill is just dead wrong...especially when comparing it to an air gun.

I am a gun owner (a 12 gauge shotgun, and 2 handguns in a pistol and revolver) and I think it should be the right of every responsible and law abiding citizen to be able to own a firearm.

Taking the guns away from citizens does nothing at all to deter gun crimes. The criminals would still easily get their guns from the black market and violent crimes will increase-just as they did in the UK when the gun ban was initiated.

Where as in the States, violent crimes actually dropped in percentage when the ban on assault rifles and certain other restrictions (extended magazines and certain ammo bans) were done away with in 2004.

Here in Houston, we have had a huge problem with the Hurricane Katrina victims who never left to go back to New Orleans. Houston has been stuck with their gangs and it has not been pretty with huge increase in the crime rate with violent crimes. It got to the point where there were at least reports of a half dozen home invasions a night with half of them ending violently for the home owner. Every few days you would hear a story of the home owner defending themselves successfully. The story of the single mother who fought off 4 intruders with her shotgun and killing 3 of them was good to hear because she was an easy target and would have been a victim if she were not allowed to defend herself.

The police in Houston are spread thin and resorted to a "mobile" command center to move all over the city because of all the violent crimes so citizens being able to defend themselves with a fire arm is one way to make up for the lack of a police presence.

I originally bought my first guns because I lived on the outskirts of a bad neighborhood when in college and we used to get thugs wearing masks banging on our door at all hours of the night. They would quickly leave as soon as their knocks were answered with the racking of a shotgun behind the door.

I have actually had a home break in- Which I posted about after it happened on this very forum a couple years ago- where I called 911, grabbed my semi automatic .40, and went downstairs to confront the intruders. They were my neighbors kids and friends ages 17-20 and the sight of my gun about made them **** themselves as they dropped to the floor. I was fortunate that just the sight of the gun scared them into submission and that they were just looking to steal some booze. However, 2 of them were armed with knives and I am not sure what would have happened if I had not been armed. They might have seen their superior numbers as an advantage to assault me and get away...who knows.

I am afraid that the Obama administration will have their way really soon and institute the same bans as the Clinton administration. The new idea of having all ammunition stamped with serial numbers to be tracked is just ridiculous. Ammunition is already very expensive because of the rising cost of the raw materials and for the fact that the US is toiled in war which obviously get priority of ammo availability. Stamping ammo will raise the cost considerably more as well as cripple the hand loading market and ammo industry as well...costing more jobs.

I am in favor of stricter gun control laws and nationwide laws instead of state to state variations. I do think there should be a waiting period before being allowed to take possession of the gun as well as a thorough background check that includes a buyers mental and medical records. A check into a buyers mental background is already in place but it is not very thorough. I know these laws would cripple gun shows and restrict private sales, but I think it must be done. I would never buy a gun from a gun show anyway and I were to deal privately, I would go through a dealer who charges a small fee to perform the background check for the transaction.

The Great Chi
29-01-09, 00:56
And here ends 'Another day in the US of A' thread :D