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KIKO
15-02-09, 11:31
Well this is being one of the most discussed topics on my school course this week. And I decided to post it here to know your opinion.:)

Do you consider illegal downloading a movie which you don't pay for OR do you consider selling that movie and making money out of it illegal ? Or Both ? And why ?

Do you think it matters if it's music or a movie or even a game ? Or is it all the same ?

Or if it's a cave-aged game will it still matter ?

Thank you.

Phys
15-02-09, 11:35
Well this is being one of the most discussed topics on my school course this week. And I decided to post it here to know your opinion.:)

Do you consider illegal downloading a movie which you don't pay for OR do you consider selling that movie and making money out of it illegal ? Or Both ? And why ?

Thank you.

Well both are considered illegal. The first one is more popular though :o

There has been talk about allowing the first one anyway (or was that music downloads :confused:)

So I'd say both. :)

KIKO
15-02-09, 11:42
Well both are considered illegal. The first one is more popular though :o

There has been talk about allowing the first one anyway (or was that music downloads :confused:)

So I'd say both. :)

Ah so you think it matters if it's a movie or a music ?

toxicraider
15-02-09, 11:44
I think both are illegal but the second is worse.
This is because a lot of the time people download things they wouldn't consider buying, therefore the company hasn't lost a potential customer (think very expensive software) although as music and films don't cost so much, it's better to support what you like :tmb:
selling things you stole is just not on though, neither is giving it away for free.

tomblover
15-02-09, 11:46
Both are illegal. :p

I only download things I can't find in Sweden. Whether it be an old game that's not to be found anywhere, or all episodes of Tom & Jerry. :vlol:

KIKO
15-02-09, 11:49
Both are illegal. :p

I only download things I can't find in Sweden. Whether it be an old game that's not to be found anywhere, or all episodes of Tom & Jerry. :vlol:

That is interesting too I'll edit the post. If it's an old game...

toxicraider
15-02-09, 11:50
I think it's fine to download a really old game, unless you can find a way to pay the maker for a good copy (eg psn download).

rowanlim
15-02-09, 11:52
I think both are illegal but the second is worse.
This is because a lot of the time people download things they wouldn't consider buying, therefore the company hasn't lost a potential customer (think very expensive software) although as music and films don't cost so much, it's better to support what you like :tmb:
selling things you stole is just not on though, neither is giving it away for free.

I totally agree :tmb:

george_croft
15-02-09, 12:20
I support sharing of movies and music, yes. But most of the times i like to show my support for the artist by buying the album instead.:)

Lee croft
15-02-09, 12:23
i say its all illegal

mizuno_suisei
15-02-09, 12:32
Yeah, I believe directly downloading movies/music is good being illegal, but i think Youtube for example..no. Its the youtube moderators's faults for not deleting illegal content asap and because of this, many things considered piracy etc.. are uploaded and millions of people get to see it before anything is done about it. So, I don't think it should be considered 'illegal' if you watch a pirated movie on youtube (for example, there are plenty of other tube-like sites out there) unless you are the one who uploaded it.

rickybazire
15-02-09, 12:37
Downloading music and movies I think, yeah, is illegal. If you pay for it to the right people, then obviously it isn't illegal.

I haven't downloaded any music illegally for quite a few years, and I intend to keep it that way, lol. (Have got music legally off iTunes).

irjudd
15-02-09, 13:03
I consider whatever is against the law to be illegal.

ShadyCroft
15-02-09, 13:17
They're both illegal according to the law, but I admit I do the second one a lot.

I do download from the internet via torrents, but please hear me out first before you flame me or anything.

I only download things that I know I can never find at all here, like metal music albums because we don't have a metal scene here.

As for the things I can find here I do pay for them, like movies and series, but even those in Jordan are pirated. We don't have rules against this here so its no big deal.

The only thing I buy here and pay its full price is books and novels. I do download it first from torrents to see if its good. If it is I'd DELETE it and go get the book. All my books and novels (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Dan Brown, Robert Ludlum, John Grisham, etc) are original.

irjudd
15-02-09, 13:28
They're both illegal according to the law, but I admit I do the second one a lot.

I do download from the internet via torrents, but please hear me out first before you flame me or anything.

I only download things that I know I can never find at all here, like metal music albums because we don't have a metal scene here.

As for the things I can find here I do pay for them, like movies and series, but even those in Jordan are pirated. We don't have rules against this here so its no big deal.

The only thing I buy here and pay its full price is books and novels. I do download it first from torrents to see if its good. If it is I'd DELETE it and go get the book. All my books and novels (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Dan Brown, Robert Ludlum, John Grisham, etc) are original.But I'm curious if there is some force preventing you from buying your music online, since the internet has lots of retailers that ship worldwide.

ShadyCroft
15-02-09, 13:31
I don't deal with buying through the internet. Dad doesn't approve of it, and since am not the one with a whole lotta money, credit cards and all that :ton: I can't do anything about it.

Beans-Bot
15-02-09, 14:12
The only thing I buy here and pay its full price is books and novels. I do download it first from torrents to see if its good. If it is I'd DELETE it and go get the book. All my books and novels (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Dan Brown, Robert Ludlum, John Grisham, etc) are original.

This may sound very stupid on my part, but do you have a library near you? :o

That's kinda what they're built for....

Anyway, both are illegal. Even if it doesn't seem like it, the company that makes the movie/game makes money every time a copy is bought/seen. So if you don't buy it or see it legally, there's no money to be had and you are stealing.

Of course I'm not going to get all on my soap box about it, I'm very guilty of watching pirated movies. :whi:

Endow
15-02-09, 14:21
Both are illegal. Not for long, though.

LaraCablara
15-02-09, 14:23
They are illegal, but most people don't care and do it anyway :).

Paperdoll
15-02-09, 14:24
Both are illegal. Not for long, though.

Elaborate?

raiderfun
15-02-09, 14:31
For me, the second one is illegal ;)

EgyptianSoul
15-02-09, 14:36
There are certain things that society has labeled illegal. But everyone has their own morals and can decide whether to care or not. :cool:

Endow
15-02-09, 14:41
Elaborate?

Nostradamus has spoken. Be gone. :p

I don't know, I think at some point all of this will be a bit like TV where you don't pay for access, per se. But I wasn't being awfully serious.

There are certain things that society has labeled illegal. But everyone has their own morals and can decide whether to care or not. :cool:

lol, what a cozy thought :D

Fish.
15-02-09, 15:12
From what I've been told, it's not illegal to download movies for free, it's just illegal to distribute them for profit. I could be wrong though.

TRfan23
15-02-09, 15:17
I think it's more illegal if you upload then download. If you upload then more people can download, if you just download you only have it to yourself ;)

But selling it for profit would be fraud, and yes that I think is more illegal.

I consider whatever is against the law to be illegal.

Illegal comes from law, so yeh I would say if the law says it's illegal then it's illegal.

Joely-Moley
15-02-09, 15:24
Hmm, I know both are illegal, but I admit I have downloaded a bunch of albums before. Usually, when an album I am waiting for leaks and I can’t resist.

But, I always end up buying the album anyway. I like having the C.D booklet…Yes I still use C.Ds, plus I like supporting struggling musicians as none of the bands I listen to aren't that big, and do struggle to support themselves.

I wouldn’t download a movie or a game though. A friend of mine got slapped with a 2000 fine for downloading some game.

AmericanAssassin
15-02-09, 15:25
It's all illegal and everybody should consider it so. Although, I do occasionally break the law. :whi:

Paperdoll
15-02-09, 15:25
Nostradamus has spoken. Be gone. :p

D':


I don't know, I think at some point all of this will be a bit like TV where you don't pay for access, per se. But I wasn't being awfully serious.

Fair enough :p I was just wondering if there were any developments regarding that that I wasn't aware of XD

Punaxe
15-02-09, 15:31
What's illegal is illegal. However, the fact that such a huge percentage of people today is in that sense a criminal, is a clear sign that's something's wrong with the current strategy of getting music legally.
The digital stores are a good response to that, but seem to require some more popularity.

Endow
15-02-09, 15:37
What's illegal is illegal. However, the fact that such a huge percentage of people today is in that sense a criminal, is a clear sign that's something's wrong with the current strategy of getting music legally.

Wrong, in what sense?

Angelx14
15-02-09, 15:38
Everything :mis:

Punaxe
15-02-09, 15:41
Wrong, in what sense?

Just in the sense that it moves everyone to use the illegal route, i.e. become a criminal. That's really something if you think about it.

Endow
15-02-09, 15:48
Just in the sense that it moves everyone to use the illegal route, i.e. become a criminal. That's really something if you think about it.

Hmm, I don't think it does. But it goes to show how human nature works. But like most rules, it's about fighting against nature.

I'm a criminal for not paying an artist money for his album. No one is forcing me to go the criminal way. I can always : not listen to the album. It's not a necessity like food.

Encore
15-02-09, 16:01
The digital stores are a good response to that, but seem to require some more popularity.

No way in hell I'm paying for something that's got the same quality as the files people upload on the internet for FREE. If I'm paying, I pay for the CDs (and I really do, when I like the music). There's lots of them very cheap these days anyway. But people somehow got into their heads that mp3 and the likes is the future... If you ask me, if that trend (digital stores) evolves, then we (the customers) will be losing a LOT in terms of price/quality relation, and hardly anyone seems to notice that detail.

I can see myself 20 years from now being the old fart who refuses to move on from the old school CDs... :cool:

Zebra
15-02-09, 16:03
Your question doesn't make much sense to me. Both things are illegal. That is a fact. What you mean is if we consider it to be wrong.

Agent 47
15-02-09, 16:23
Well this is being one of the most discussed topics on my school course this week. And I decided to post it here to know your opinion.:)

Do you consider illegal downloading a movie which you don't pay for OR do you consider selling that movie and making money out of it illegal ? Or Both ? And why ?

Do you think it matters if it's music or a movie or even a game ? Or is it all the same ?

Or if it's a cave-aged game will it still matter ?

Thank you.

for me it's simple, if i download or copy a dvd or cd with intent to sell, that is illegal and piracy. if i find something online that interests me and i choose to listen or watch for private viewing then it's fair game. if i like what i see then i buy the product, simple as.
:D

Punaxe
15-02-09, 16:25
Hmm, I don't think it does. But it goes to show how human nature works. But like most rules, it's about fighting against nature.

I'm a criminal for not paying an artist money for his album. No one is forcing me to go the criminal way. I can always : not listen to the album. It's not a necessity like food.

My point is, that the downsides to the current legal market's offerings apparently outweigh the fact that you'll be a criminal if you get it illegally. And that, in my eyes, is a pretty heavy thing to outweigh.

No way in hell I'm paying for something that's got the same quality as the files people upload on the internet for FREE. If I'm paying, I pay for the CDs (and I really do, when I like the music). There's lots of them very cheap these days anyway. But people somehow got into their heads that mp3 and the likes is the future... If you ask me, if that trend (digital stores) evolves, then we (the customers) will be losing a LOT in terms of price/quality relation, and hardly anyone seems to notice that detail.

I can see myself 20 years from now being the old fart who refuses to move on from the old school CDs... :cool:

I too want to get it all on CD for the significant increase in quality, but as you already indicate yourself... Our attitude isn't shared by everyone :p Many people don't even hear it, even more don't care. For these people, probably the majority, the digital stores are great.

By the way, I never tested it myself, but I know at least one audiophile who uses all-digital music. According to him, high quality MP3 + extremely high quality soundcard is about the same as CD + a hifi-set.

Neteru
15-02-09, 16:37
By the way, I never tested it myself, but I know at least one audiophile who uses all-digital music. According to him, high quality MP3 + extremely high quality soundcard is about the same as CD + a hifi-set.Individual preferences. Each person is different and hears differently.

Personally, I want the full range audio with nothing lost, hence my digital collection is FLAC. As for downloading, it's a matter of individual conscience I think. I prefer to have the real thing in my hands, CD or DVD.

ShadyCroft
15-02-09, 16:38
This may sound very stupid on my part, but do you have a library near you?

Its not very stupid on your part at all, its just a lack of knowledge regarding the little country where I live.

We are about 6 million people living in Jordan, and around more than 50% percent are barely getting paid enough for everyday chores and needs.

I can't find Harry Potter in any local book store simply because we don't have a book store that sells the book cause there's no demand. English is taught at schools here and is a must, but its sort of a small percentage of citizens (like me) who make it a daily part of their lives, read English books, listen to English and wonder after English contents and series and stuff.

All the original DVDs and CDs, games, books and albums can be found in big malls in the capital Amman. We're not a primitive country, its just most Lebanese, Iraqi and Gulf investments (even foreign ones) are centered in the capital. The other cities lack those few things that satisfy us , the small percentage who take a semi-English life. My city has internet cafes, but I have internet at my home, and we do have McDonalds, BK, Kentucky, but I have a kitchen at home and we buy our needs with the pay check.

However, we don't have a library because there's no demand for English books, because more than 50% barely have enough time to read a pay when they're trying to figure out how they're gonna spend the little of their salaries in the next few days. We also don't have cinemas except in the capital, and if I wanna go watch a movie, I have to drive for an hour to get to the capital then around 15 mins through the bustling streets to get to the theater.

There's this gap between the capital and the other cities, the citizens of the capital and the citizens of the other cities, a difference between the price of a PS3 or a Prison Break DVD and the salaries we get.

Do you really think I'm going to pay 40 JDs (around 58 $) for gas to drive up to the capital and pay 6 JDs to watch a movie when I can go to a local store who deals with piracy and get it for 1 JD ?
Do you really think I'm going to go up to the mall and buy 13 episodes (half a season) of Prison Break for 60 JDs when my dad payed 40 JDs for gas yesterday, whereas I can get the whole season for a click ? (notice a full season will cost me 120 $. 4 seasons so far, that's about 480$)

Books are the only thing I gotta get original cause like I said there's no demand for them except in the capital.

I say once again, we're not poor, we're more than fine, we just barely have enough for everyday chores and needs.


Edit: I hope this post is understandable. :o Its kinda hard to explain. You need to live in a country for a while to see how it rolls.

Drone
15-02-09, 16:40
they kill millions people at war, they make them unemployed and they sue them for downloading the music ahahaha! **** you! what is more "illegal" in this world. they create a cheap entertainment, cheap music with idiotic lyrics for gray masses of dumb morons.


now about music: I will always go on gigs of musicians I love. That's the best support for the real music

ShadyCroft
15-02-09, 16:45
Hmmm, that thread just made me feel rebellious and makes me wanna go download the first episode of Dollhouse. :whi:

Oh wait ! Amazing Race season 14 is on in the US tonight... :whi:

Bobsyeruncle
15-02-09, 16:48
Your question proceeds from the premise that one's point of view has something to do with the legality or illegality of a particular action. That is not correct. An act, any act, is either legal or illegal depending on where you live and under what set of laws govern that place. Were you to be actually brought to trial under suspicion of performing an illegal act, your point of view as to whether or not a certain act was, is, isn't, or should be legal or illegal will have very little to do with whether or not you might be found guilty of that act.

Conversely, "it ain't illegal if you don't get caught." Presuming you are prepared to take the risk that you won't be caught, the next question one should then ask is "is this right or wrong?" If your opinion on that subject differs from that of the law, and you are caught, well, that's why we have legal systems with laws and punishments.

digitizedboy
15-02-09, 17:03
I dunno... I prefer to take a brisk walk or ride the bike to the video store anyway. :) Downloading movies takes the fun away from things like that.

Encore
15-02-09, 17:16
they kill millions people at war, they make them unemployed and they sue them for downloading the music ahahaha! **** you! what is more "illegal" in this world. they create a cheap entertainment, cheap music with idiotic lyrics for gray masses of dumb morons.


http://i42.************/k2olg0.jpg

Chill out O_o

Candee Sparks
15-02-09, 17:34
You live once so do what you want. I don't really see how downloading music without paying the $0.99 is a bad thing to do in this day and age. If top selling artists are complaining about their music being pirated, well they can deal with it and stop having to rely on every ounce of your music sales to survive so they can continue to live their luxurious lives as if they really deserve it because pirating is never going to stop.

Might as well live life to the fullest as if your going to die tomorrow, and if that includes a few measly music downloads just to have something pleasant to listen to on an iPod, then oh well.

KIKO
15-02-09, 17:43
I personally prefer to have the product with me than downloading stuff that in a way only exists digitally.
Most of the times, well I rarely buy DVD's because I spend so many time in the cinema or at youtube watching movies that buying DVD's just isn't worth it. :o

spikejones
15-02-09, 18:48
imo ... illegal is trying to fit an object into a space that it can not possibly fit into.
ex: definition 1. of "legal" at dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/legal):
1. permitted by law; lawful: Such acts are not legal.
definition 2. of "illegal"
2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.

In the scientific world there are many laws of geometry and physics which define mass and volume etc.. It goes without saying that item A with volume (length * width * height) of 100 cubic centimeters cannot fit into container B with volume of 50 cubic centimeters. Therefore, trying to force object A into container B - regardless of substance state (liquid, solid, gas, plasma) is an illegal act, as it is forbidden by the laws of physics.

The laws of a nation are biased in their conception and based solely upon a chosen moral set of a particular entity, be it the "majority" of society, or a dictatorial ruler.

anyhoooo.... on the subject morality and legality:
I was walking downtown looking for a job one night and stumbled across a page that was stapled to a street light pole. It was the following (copied in verbatim form a site who has the text intact):

Wednesday, July 30, 2008

Only Criminals Have the Right (http://shirq.blogspot.com/2008/07/only-criminals-have-right.html)

to speak of right and wrong

from a poster by CrimethInc. (http://crimethinc.com/)

Only Criminals Have the Right To Speak of Right and Wrong

It's convenient for those whose obedience is rewarded with financial stability and social status to moralize about submission to the law. When they insist that the established channels are always the most appropriate and effective, we have to ask: are they capable of honestly considering the alternative?

There have always been people who consider the law of the land more important than the dictates of conscience. They hanged John Brown for treason; they looked the other way as Jews were carted off to Dachau; for them, statutes and property rights are more precious than rainforests, polar icecaps, or native peoples. In abdicating the responsibility to determine right and wrong for themselves, they elevate the Nuremberg defense to a moral principle--a principle they don't shrink from forcing on others.

Only those who are willing to break the law can be trusted to do what they truly believe is right. In stepping out of line, they prove that they are not acting solely out of cowardice, obedience, or conformity. They may make mistakes, they may have questionable motives of their own, but they never make the excuse of duty.
Might as well live life to the fullest as if your going to die tomorrow, and if that includes a few measly music downloads just to have something pleasant to listen to on an iPod, then oh well.
I don't see that as a valid argument for living life to the fullest.
Unrelated to living life to the fullest though: I say listen to radio more and a listen less to a stupid product by apple.


edit:
*thread death*

Endow
15-02-09, 21:36
My point is, that the downsides to the current legal market's offerings apparently outweigh the fact that you'll be a criminal if you get it illegally. And that, in my eyes, is a pretty heavy thing to outweigh.

That's not why people go the criminal way, imo. They do it because there's no real regulation.

You live once so do what you want. I don't really see how downloading music without paying the $0.99 is a bad thing to do in this day and age. If top selling artists are complaining about their music being pirated, well they can deal with it and stop having to rely on every ounce of your music sales to survive so they can continue to live their luxurious lives as if they really deserve it because pirating is never going to stop.

Might as well live life to the fullest as if your going to die tomorrow, and if that includes a few measly music downloads just to have something pleasant to listen to on an iPod, then oh well.

Luxurious lives? Sure, like 0.5% of musical artists.

Tonyrobinson
15-02-09, 21:47
Both are illegal however selling the movie is much worse than using it for your own entertainment purposes like most DVD disclaimers :)

TRfan23
15-02-09, 22:24
Well lol schools break laws ;) Videos\DVD's - Home use only!!!

A school isn't a home ;)

It also says not to lend... Yet teachers lend some films to students at my school lol.

Agent 47
15-02-09, 22:28
Well lol schools break laws ;) Videos\DVD's - Home use only!!!

A school isn't a home ;)

It also says not to lend... Yet teachers lend some films to students at my school lol.

that's true, i remember watching films at christmas time backstage before doing a play. E.T it was :D

Neteru
15-02-09, 22:35
that's true, i remember watching films at christmas time backstage before doing a play. E.T it was :DOMG :D I watched E.T. on pirate video way back when. Bonfire night it was, actually. Um, so it was probably 1982. ???

Agent 47
15-02-09, 22:39
OMG :D I watched E.T. on pirate video way back when. Bonfire night it was, actually. Um, so it was probably 1982. ???

the copy i watched was legal, betamax too :vlol: damn how time flies :D

Larson_1988
15-02-09, 22:41
What the heck is betamax? :confused: :vlol:

Lara.Jolie7
15-02-09, 22:42
It's all Illegal
movies, games, series, music...

But sometimes it's nice so people buy the real thing when they realy like.

I've bougth a lot of movies and series that I've donwnloaded

Also I meet left 4 dead from a ilegal download and I loved the game, now I have the legal one... Also with Team Fortress 2 and Half Life

Some prices make people search for illegal.
I only have 2 or 3 Ps2 original game...And I have like 40 downloaded game cds.
Why?
Cuz the price is very expencive, the price of 3 games for ps2 u can buy a new Ps2.... Isn't like 20, 30 dolars, is Like 200+ reais :/

I do not buy illegal music, videos and games, I download then (like a lot on this forum) and I never will sell this... Cuz this is realy bad, gain money with other guys thing, Donwload and use is 1 thing, now sell is another (both ilegal)

Also I do not say where I download those things

Agent 47
15-02-09, 22:44
What the heck is betamax? :confused: :vlol:

oh man you need a life :vlol: rival to VHS :D

Ward Dragon
15-02-09, 22:46
Hmmm, that thread just made me feel rebellious and makes me wanna go download the first episode of Dollhouse. :whi:

But you can watch it legally here (http://www.fox.com/fod/play.php?sh=dollhouse) :p

Regarding the initial question in the thread, both things are illegal.

Well lol schools break laws ;) Videos\DVD's - Home use only!!!

A school isn't a home ;)

Yup, schools break laws all the time XD They also photocopy things which say they are copyrighted and not to be reproduced.

It also says not to lend...

This I wondered about since I have noticed it on a few of my games and such. Since when is it illegal to lend or borrow media from somebody as long as no money is involved? :confused: I mean, the movie/game needs the disc to run anyway so it's not like both people are using it at once.

Angelus
15-02-09, 22:48
Hmmm, that thread just made me feel rebellious and makes me wanna go download the first episode of Dollhouse. :whi:

Oh wait ! Amazing Race season 14 is on in the US tonight... :whi:

How do you think I managed to watch it? :p

Anyway... I download albums and if I like it I'll buy the CD. I can't be bothered downloading films and burning them to DVD because it involves so much effort and time... I'd rather just buy the thing.

Larson_1988
15-02-09, 22:48
@ Mr. 47! :D

Manners young man! :ohn: :D I'm just 20 remember, :p Though i did watch E.T on VHS when i was a kid! :D

Agent 47
15-02-09, 22:51
@ Mr. 47! :D

Manners young man! :ohn: :D I'm just 20 remember, :p Though i did watch E.T on VHS when i was a kid! :D

betamax is still used in some industries over in Asia :D you have no excuses now

Larson_1988
15-02-09, 22:56
betamax is still used in some industries over in Asia :D you have no excuses now

Allright, i googled it now. :jmp: And i'll admit i've never seen a betamax tape ever. I guess we went over to VHS quickly here, long before my time. :p

Agent 47
15-02-09, 23:01
Allright, i googled it now. :jmp: And i'll admit i've never seen a betamax tape ever. I guess we went over to VHS quickly here, long before my time. :p

first VHS we got was a German brand called Telefunken. a silver top loader with black trim, large buttons, the thing was huge and heavy :vlol: it lasted ages :eek:

Neteru
15-02-09, 23:06
first VHS we got was a German brand called Telefunken. a silver top loader with black trim, large buttons, the thing was huge and heavy :vlol: it lasted ages :eek::D I remember that brand name. My first VHS recorder was a beast of a thing of similar sounding design - top loader too. God, how archaic it all seems now.

Well I have to say I do often get bemused by some of the talk about piracy and you would think it was something new. How many who are old enough had tapes made by their mates who bought a record? Most of us I would guess. And the record companies made the same kind of claims about cassette recorders when they were invented as they do now. Including claims it would bankrupt them. It's also my understanding they tried to get those banned too.

Larson_1988
15-02-09, 23:11
first VHS we got was a German brand called Telefunken. a silver top loader with black trim, large buttons, the thing was huge and heavy :vlol: it lasted ages :eek:

When was this?

And our lasted for a long time aswell, until someone (:whi:) stuffed it with sugar when he was 6. :hea:

@Net, Yeah, i think of piracy as something that started at the beginning of the millenuim and onwards, guess i was wrong. :p

Paddy
15-02-09, 23:18
See burning cds and dvds is illegal which is strange because the burners themselves are sellable.

Endow
15-02-09, 23:21
See burning cds and dvds is illegal which is strange because the burners themselves are sellable.

It's not illegal if the content of said cds/dvds is not protected by copyright.

spikejones
15-02-09, 23:23
Donwload and use is 1 thing, now sell is another (both ilegal)

Also I do not say where I download those things
so... you admit to breaking the law, but call it no big deal since you are just downloading something that someone else made a copy of? how do you draw the difference between someone providing stolen merchandise for free or for profit? In both cases the property is stolen, but you would rather take the stolen property for free than to pay for the stolen property? Or you just do not want to pay regardless of where it originates?

look at it this way... you being the downloader of stolen property are just as guilty of illegal activity as the person who stole it in order to give it to you.

Yup, schools break laws all the time XD They also photocopy things which say they are copyrighted and not to be reproduced.

well, the photocopying of materials falls generally within the fair use policy and therefore is not technically illegal. however, the exhibition of movies in classrooms seems to fall into a gray area. For one, calling it a "public broadcast" can be argued both ways as you are not opening the doors to let the general public come in to view the video. Secondly, you aren't charging for it. Thirdly, You are more than likely showing the video for some educational purpose. This can be considered to be a fair usage of copyright materials without permission of the copyright holder.

This I wondered about since I have noticed it on a few of my games and such. Since when is it illegal to lend or borrow media from somebody as long as no money is involved? :confused: I mean, the movie/game needs the disc to run anyway so it's not like both people are using it at once.cracked executables make games run without the disc. therefore - one can distribute illegally a game ISO via torrent along with the cracked executable (to deal with SECU-ROM issues), and then no one even needs a disc.
See burning cds and dvds is illegal which is strange because the burners themselves are sellable.
the sole purpose of a CD burner is not to copy a previously created work. it is legal to burn backup CD's of certain discs which have no SECU-ROM protection (windows install discs, ms office install discs for example). It is also possible to use CD and DVD burners to create your own personal works. It is not the technology itself, or even the "act of" which makes it illegal - it is the subject upon which it is carried out and the purposes for which it is being done that define whether or not it is illegal.
:D I remember that brand name. My first VHS recorder was a beast of a thing of similar sounding design - top loader too. God, how archaic it all seems now.

Well I have to say I do often get bemused by some of the talk about piracy and you would think it was something new. How many who are old enough had tapes made by their mates who bought a record? Most of us I would guess. And the record companies made the same kind of claims about cassette recorders when they were invented as they do now. Including claims it would bankrupt them. It's also my understanding they tried to get those banned too.
not to mention the fact that people can record radio broadcast freely with tapes, record television shows freely with vhs, record HD movies freely with DVR etc.. and those were the exact purposes for which those recording devices were created. no one seems to care much about that now though.

Tombreaper
16-02-09, 00:19
Being a President of a country, Chairman/CEO of a bank etc.

spikejones
16-02-09, 00:30
can you expound upon that statement tombreaper?
I simply do not understand why you would choose to call being one in of those positions to be illegal. it seems a simply illogical statement considering that the governing bodies that they are, define what is legal and illegal.

if you mean to say that you despise people in those positions of power - why then did you not say so?

I am confused to say the least.

Mr.Burns
16-02-09, 00:54
Individual preferences. Each person is different and hears differently.

Personally, I want the full range audio with nothing lost, hence my digital collection is FLAC. As for downloading, it's a matter of individual conscience I think. I prefer to have the real thing in my hands, CD or DVD.

Ditto on the physical ownership. Anything downloaded that violates the respective copyright laws is illegal in my mind.

irjudd
16-02-09, 00:56
I hope Justin doesn't get a tempting offer from the RIAA or MPAA for the IP's of all the people here confessing to piracy :whi:

spikejones
16-02-09, 00:58
pirates of silicone valley (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/) :D
where would we be without them?

voltz
16-02-09, 01:07
I hope Justin doesn't get a tempting offer from the RIAA or MPAA for the IP's of all the people here confessing to piracy :whi:

Considering how bad the record companies are drying out, I wouldn't put it past them.

Tombreaper
16-02-09, 01:09
can you expound upon that statement tombreaper?
I simply do not understand why you would choose to call being one in of those positions to be illegal. it seems a simply illogical statement considering that the governing bodies that they are, define what is legal and illegal.

if you mean to say that you despise people in those positions of power - why then did you not say so?

I am confused to say the least.

It's 2009 already, and it's still a big mess in the world.

I blame those who are in charge, like Presidents and CEO's of large companies.

Time to declare these people illegal and put them all in jail because they took and still take away our right to be happy with no worries about losing jobs or having enough money to pay our bills and buy food.

And I want VHS back to be the leading standard in recording and watching movies instead of DVD or Blu-ray.

voltz
16-02-09, 01:12
And I want VHS back to be the leading standard

EWW, Betamax is the king baby!! :ton:

Tombreaper
16-02-09, 01:16
EWW, Betamax is the king baby!! :ton:

Betamax has a better resolution, yeah, I know, but VHS has better magnetic particles.

spikejones
16-02-09, 01:17
It's 2009 already, and it's still a big mess in the world.

I blame those who are in charge, like Presidents and CEO's of large companies.

Time to declare these people illegal and put them all in jail because they took and still take away our right to be happy with no worries about losing jobs or having enough money to pay our bills and buy food.


start a revolution then, but bear in mind that you would be viewed as a terrorist or unpatriotic or whatever you may call it. simply because those in places of power and wealth are financially secure and can call all the shots, while the lowly people like us are expected to lay subservient to their every whim. perhaps you should read my first post in this thread.


And I want VHS back to be the leading standard in recording and watching movies instead of DVD or Blu-ray.
do you mean as professionally produced by the companies who sell those films? or do you mean as an in home device? If you are speaking of the latter, it is simply a matter of getting a VCR and tapes. You aren't beholden to use a DVD or Blu-ray player by any means what soever. If you mean the former, then that won't happen. Technology is not going to step backwards to a crappier format.

voltz
16-02-09, 01:37
Betamax has a better resolution, yeah, I know, but VHS has better magnetic particles.

True but it really bothers me with VHS in the long run, the quality seems to degrade on a per play basis and next thing you know you have to get another tape. I really think the day and age for this material is almost done because of this.

aileenwuornos
16-02-09, 01:38
Like everything I do. I figure it's only illegal if you get caught. :ton:

voltz
16-02-09, 01:39
Technology is not going to step backwards to a crappier format.

Crappier formats with all their rewinding and scanlines and parts wearing down and tracking issues....

Like everything I do. I figure it's only illegal if you get caught. :ton:

LOL!!

I'M CALLING THE COPS!

digitizedboy
16-02-09, 01:42
I hope Justin doesn't get a tempting offer from the RIAA or MPAA for the IP's of all the people here confessing to piracy :whi:

Then he would need evidence. lol

voltz
16-02-09, 01:54
What? WHAT!??

aileenwuornos
16-02-09, 02:26
Crappier formats with all their rewinding and scanlines and parts wearing down and tracking issues....



LOL!!

I'M CALLING THE COPS!

Hahahahahh noooo anything but the po-po. I really hate the police.

spikejones
16-02-09, 02:51
^why is that? they're just people doing their jobs. if you don't break the law... you don't have to worry about them.:confused:

voltz
16-02-09, 03:15
^why is that? They're just people doing their jobs. If you don't break the law... You don't have to worry about them.:confused:

Eat!
Drink!
Spend!!

Obey....obey......obey!!!

aileenwuornos
16-02-09, 03:28
Eat!
Drink!
Spend!!

Obey....obey......obey!!!

Hahah I love that movie. It was so scary. Like Network.

And I don't like them because all of my experiences with them have been negative (please bear in mind I have never been "busted" for anything, ever), but you do have to worry about them - because they (and their decisions) effect way too much of my (and others) personal lives. I should also add that this is in Western Australia only that I'm talking about, I'm not overly familiar with police in other places but I would imagine it would be fairly similar. In fact, I'm going to wiki that **** now.

spikejones
16-02-09, 03:47
Eat!
Drink!
Spend!!

Obey....obey......obey!!!
only prison guards are like that, but then again - once you break the law and get arrested, you have signed away your rights as a citizen. you become property of the state and must do as they say. in essence.... you are quite literally a "slave to the system".

Ikas90
16-02-09, 08:59
What's not illegal?

I think sharing movies is fine. Lending a movie to a friend should not be illegal. What I think is illegal is to distribute movies that are not yours for your own benefit.

Agent 47
16-02-09, 11:12
As this thread is about legality, here's a story from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7892073.stm :D

Larson_1988
16-02-09, 11:16
Yep, i read that earlier today! 14 million Swedish kronor is a lot!! :eek:

Ward Dragon
16-02-09, 15:39
well, the photocopying of materials falls generally within the fair use policy and therefore is not technically illegal. however, the exhibition of movies in classrooms seems to fall into a gray area. For one, calling it a "public broadcast" can be argued both ways as you are not opening the doors to let the general public come in to view the video. Secondly, you aren't charging for it. Thirdly, You are more than likely showing the video for some educational purpose. This can be considered to be a fair usage of copyright materials without permission of the copyright holder.

I've had teachers give us (the class) photocopied materials and tell us not to tell anybody that they had photocopied it, so I assumed it was illegal (or at least the teacher thought it was).

cracked executables make games run without the disc. therefore - one can distribute illegally a game ISO via torrent along with the cracked executable (to deal with SECU-ROM issues), and then no one even needs a disc.

Well obviously downloading a cracked game is illegal. I was talking about lending someone the actual physical disc for them to watch or play at their house with no cracks or anything of the like involved. I've noticed that some game discs say not to lend them, but how can it possibly be illegal to lend or borrow discs? For that matter, are libraries now illegal? I've taken discs out of libraries which say not to lend them either. I had assumed it meant not to rent it for money but now I'm not so sure :confused:

Rai
16-02-09, 15:45
I've had teachers give us (the class) photocopied materials and tell us not to tell anybody that they had photocopied it, so I assumed it was illegal (or at least the teacher thought it was).



Well obviously downloading a cracked game is illegal. I was talking about lending someone the actual physical disc for them to watch or play at their house with no cracks or anything of the like involved. I've noticed that some game discs say not to lend them, but how can it possibly be illegal to lend or borrow discs? For that matter, are libraries now illegal? I've taken discs out of libraries which say not to lend them either. I had assumed it meant not to rent it for money but now I'm not so sure :confused:

Most libraries or schools will have had some kind of permission to lend out books/videos/CDs etc. Schools,I think can make copies for educational reasons and libraries will have the local council's permission probably. I don't know how it all works exactly, but I don't think they have to apply for each individual item, but they are covered legally generally.

IceColdLaraCroft
16-02-09, 15:59
I think there are gray areas.

I teach and in my presentations I find photos from Google and use them to show people where things are. They aren't MY photos and I have no copyright/ownership rights, so it is stealing, but it is also for educational purposes.

I think if you video/record a movie/music that should be prosecutable. If you take something from someone else then it's debateable how much you knew from where the source was and if that person did/didn't have permission to distribute that material.

Things like unreleased songs I don't think should have any legal consequences because they were never going to be released commerically. I don't think it's wrong to share songs with your friends as long as you aren't sending 4 or 5 albums at a time.

I do think that people should be fined but I think $10,000-$100,000 is excessive for individuals.

If you make something accessible, easy and cheap people will play along. If you continue to increase prices, restrictions and say "you can only play this song with this player on this device" people are going to be bitter. Especially if you have to buy the same song for different devices.

Or worse...you can't buy them in different countries and there's no intention of a company releasing a song/movie in your country, how else are you going to see/hear it unless someone gives it to you?

kooky
16-02-09, 16:01
It is illegal to download movies, software for ex. Adobe, games etc. from the web for free, if you caught by someone seeing you do it, they can report you & you also get sued from the Publisher of the movie, software, game etc.

Selling "Bootlegged" Movies, software, games etc. on DVDs or CDs is just as bad, if you tried to sell one on the streets to someones who knows this kind of stuff is illegal, they would try report you at the city's police department & you're sentenced to prison for a decade.

spikejones
16-02-09, 17:33
As this thread is about legality, here's a story from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7892073.stm :D
nothing new... see: the pirate bay / legal
I've had teachers give us (the class) photocopied materials and tell us not to tell anybody that they had photocopied it, so I assumed it was illegal (or at least the teacher thought it was).

some of it may have been. Not saying that all educational materials used will fall under fair use, but generally they will. Then again, you have a point there. The teacher may think they are breaking the law.
you can see here if you so desire to learn a bit more about fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html


Well obviously downloading a cracked game is illegal. I was talking about lending someone the actual physical disc for them to watch or play at their house with no cracks or anything of the like involved. I've noticed that some game discs say not to lend them, but how can it possibly be illegal to lend or borrow discs? For that matter, are libraries now illegal? I've taken discs out of libraries which say not to lend them either. I had assumed it meant not to rent it for money but now I'm not so sure :confused:yes, but distributing an ISO is much the same as handing over a single physical disc. It doesn't take much for a determined person to google for crack and get what they need. So in effect, the simple act of lending a disc is going to open the door to potential piracy. I mean... consider the possibility that your friend looses the disc or breaks it, but you still want to play your game. Are you really going to go out and buy a new disc? What if they cannot be persuaded to return the disc or buy you a new one? This has actually happened to me before...


I think if you video/record a movie/music that should be prosecutable. If you take something from someone else then it's debateable how much you knew from where the source was and if that person did/didn't have permission to distribute that material.

Afaik doing this for your own personal use is legal, so long as you own the original disc. There may be exceptions though. For instance, ripping a DVD to your computer may be illegal. But... ripping an audio CD to your computer is perfectly legal. And so is the subsequent transferring of said files to your Ipod, Zune, Sansa MP3 player, Cell Phone etc...

If you make something accessible, easy and cheap people will play along. If you continue to increase prices, restrictions and say "you can only play this song with this player on this device" people are going to be bitter. Especially if you have to buy the same song for different devices.
CD's are dirt cheap and less cost than buying from Itunes or other online stores. That's why I never got into the whole buying DRM protected media online craze. Besides, you are in no way shape or form beholden to purchase the song three times to transfer it to three different computers. That only happens if you purchase stuff from iTunes or Verizon and restricted to their own DRM rules that are only used to gain them more money, and not the artist. If you refer back above - ripping your own CDs to MP3 and adding them to your iTunes or Windows Media library and then transferring them to another device is perfectly legal. Otherwise, don't you think iTunes would have built in a file signing checker to block the transfer of non iTunes bought media?

Or worse...you can't buy them in different countries and there's no intention of a company releasing a song/movie in your country, how else are you going to see/hear it unless someone gives it to you?personally, being not the world news watcher - I don't see this happening. I don't really see that as a valid argument as the majority of the world doesn't pay attention to artists in other countries. And I'm sure you can find it on Ebay.

Ward Dragon
16-02-09, 23:13
some of it may have been. Not saying that all educational materials used will fall under fair use, but generally they will. Then again, you have a point there. The teacher may think they are breaking the law.
you can see here if you so desire to learn a bit more about fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Okay, thanks. I'll look into that :)

yes, but distributing an ISO is much the same as handing over a single physical disc. It doesn't take much for a determined person to google for crack and get what they need. So in effect, the simple act of lending a disc is going to open the door to potential piracy. I mean... consider the possibility that your friend looses the disc or breaks it, but you still want to play your game. Are you really going to go out and buy a new disc? What if they cannot be persuaded to return the disc or buy you a new one? This has actually happened to me before...

But assuming that neither party does anything with ISO's or cracks, how can it be illegal to borrow a game from a friend? Is it illegal to borrow a book? :confused:

spikejones
17-02-09, 02:26
But assuming that neither party does anything with ISO's or cracks, how can it be illegal to borrow a game from a friend? Is it illegal to borrow a book? :confused:
Hey... I don't write the rules. But you may want to look at it this way. It is quicker, easier, and cheaper to copy a digital format than it is to copy a paper product. Sure it may take a bit for the first hacker to make a crack for a game, but once it gets put online - it is instantaneously available for the world to download. On the other hand, lets look at copying a book. Without destructing the original work by tearing apart the binding, the only convenient way to copy a book is to stand at the copy machine and copy each and every page, 2 at a time. Depending upon the size of the book, this can be pretty damn expensive. Not everyone has a copy machine or all in one at their home - and even if they did, they have to pay for the paper and ink they will be using to print. If you go to any public printing facility, you pay about 10 cents a page (multiplied by 200) you are paying 20 dollars to copy a book. Might as well just buy it in that case ;)

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 02:50
Hey... I don't write the rules. But you may want to look at it this way. It is quicker, easier, and cheaper to copy a digital format than it is to copy a paper product. Sure it may take a bit for the first hacker to make a crack for a game, but once it gets put online - it is instantaneously available for the world to download.

My problem with this argument is that your explanation for the illegality of borrowing games hinges upon doing something else illegal (downloading a crack). What if someone just honestly borrows a game, plays it with the disc in the drive, and then gives it back when they are finished? If it becomes illegal to borrow a game just because someone might do something else that is already illegal, then why are people allowed to check out games from libraries or rent them from stores?

Incidentally, I don't like this shift towards DLC type stuff. It's designed so that it can't be rented or borrowed and there's no way to buy it used. I'm sure the game companies would love to make it so that every single person has to pay full price for everything, but I suspect that will end up hurting sales in the long run because most games aren't worth full price so people will stop buying them if they can't get a discount.

On the other hand, lets look at copying a book. Without destructing the original work by tearing apart the binding, the only convenient way to copy a book is to stand at the copy machine and copy each and every page, 2 at a time. Depending upon the size of the book, this can be pretty damn expensive. Not everyone has a copy machine or all in one at their home - and even if they did, they have to pay for the paper and ink they will be using to print. If you go to any public printing facility, you pay about 10 cents a page (multiplied by 200) you are paying 20 dollars to copy a book. Might as well just buy it in that case ;)

You're missing my point. I don't copy games that I borrow. I just play them and then give them back. Same thing with books. Either way, the media gets played/read once and then returned. If it's illegal for one, then it should be illegal for the other as well, right? I think it's ridiculous for either to be illegal and I don't think they are illegal either.

spikejones
17-02-09, 03:31
I wasn't implying that were doing illegal activities. I was presenting a logical scenario. But I guess it comes down to whether the corporations agree with the statement:

"Most people would steal if they knew they could get away with it"

My presentation was based solely upon how easily a digital product can be reproduced and spread around the globe, whereas a paper product is not so easily done. True the material will be played or read or watched either way whether it is lent legally or otherwise, but one could argue that the rate at which digital piracy spreads materials illegal is far in excess of lending a book to one person and then another and then another and then another. Eventually, one of those friends waiting to get their hands on the book will eventually go buy it most likely. Stores are able to rent movies and games because they have a license to do so, part of the revenue from that rental goes to producers and in turn very minimal amount of royalties will go to the artists portrayed therein. Libraries are allowed to do so for free as they are an educational facility and are usually run by a state, local, or federal government.

In fact, not sure if the library here in Raleigh does it, or the one in your area does it, but the library in High Point actually lends DVD's - feature films, educational films, documentaries, television series' etc.. and you can rent up to 10 of them at time and keep them for whole week.

---

I understand your point that what is good for the goose ought to be good for the gander though.

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 03:44
My presentation was based solely upon how easily a digital product can be reproduced and spread around the globe, whereas a paper product is not so easily done.

That's what doesn't make sense to me. If someone was going to illegally download the game, then they'd just do it instead of bothering to borrow the physical disc from a friend.

If I buy a game disc or DVD, that's an object that I own and I should be allowed to lend it to a friend since I cannot access the intellectual property without the disc anyway, so only one person is using it at a time.

In fact, not sure if the library here in Raleigh does it, or the one in your area does it, but the library in High Point actually lends DVD's - feature films, educational films, documentaries, television series' etc.. and you can rent up to 10 of them at time and keep them for whole week.

My library system is fantastic. They've got tons of DVD's and videogames on all platforms :D I actually first noticed the "Do not lend" warning on a few games I borrowed from the library.

I understand your point that what is good for the goose ought to be good for the gander though.

Right :)

I know some game EULA's say not to lend/borrow games, but I don't think a lot of the stuff in EULA's is entirely legal itself, much less legally binding. The last I heard, consumers have the right to make backup copies of discs (which some EULA's even acknowledge despite having anti-copying software in place) but it's also illegal to circumvent the somewhat illegal anti-copying software so it's a frigging mess and I just don't want to bother figuring it out. I'll stick to taking good care of my original discs and occasionally buying a game I like twice if I find it really cheap (I've literally bought five copies of Blood Omen 2 and I still own three XD The other two were gifts -- is that illegal too now? :rolleyes:)

Edit: I've been searching Google trying to find a clear answer to whether or not it's illegal to lend/borrow games. I can't get a straight answer to this question :confused: I did find a thing about Sony wanting it to be illegal to buy/sell used games, but I guess that didn't pan out since Gamestop definitely sells used PS3 games.

spikejones
17-02-09, 04:05
That's what doesn't make sense to me. If someone was going to illegally download the game, then they'd just do it instead of bothering to borrow the physical disc from a friend.

It may seem strange to you, but up until recently - I had never heard of a torrent site. I never even googled for downloads of anything. If I ever did, I figured it would all be a bunch of viruses - and many people may be in the same ignorant situation themselves. Or they may be kids whose parents would see this "illegal application" on the computer and destroy it. There's all kinds of reasons why a person would rather get the disc from a friend rather than download it. They may simply not have a fast enough connection to download a full DVD. Or may not have a DVD burner, and don't know about image mounting software to use in place of that. Not everyone knows about the different ways of pirating stuff, and wouldn't know where to start looking.

If I buy a game disc or DVD, that's an object that I own and I should be allowed to lend it to a friend since I cannot access the intellectual property without the disc anyway, so only one person is using it at a time.
again, I hear you there. if you are an honest person then you have a right to feel that way. But the masses of registered members at Demonoid.com scream otherwise. At the risk of breaking T&C, but simply to point out how rampant it is... if you go to google and do an "im feeling lucky" search on the term aXXo, you will see what the hype is all about.

My library system is fantastic. They've got tons of DVD's and videogames on all platforms :D I actually first noticed the "Do not lend" warning on a few games I borrowed from the library.
That's awesome:tmb: mine didn't have games. Now I feel deprived :(


Right :)
:D

Obviously giving a game as a gift is not illegal if it has not been opened yet. But I understand your cynicism about it all. As for the Gamestop issue, I don't have a clue if any of the proceeds go to the manufacturers or producers of the games. I never really considered that to be honest. But that is where I go for all my limited collection of X-Box games. Never sold anything to them though. Cheap *******s... and why would I want store credit to buy something to play on a system you're not giving me enough money to buy?:rolleyes:

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 04:19
It may seem strange to you, but up until recently - I had never heard of a torrent site.

I hadn't either until I joined this forum XD I'm rather ignorant about the mechanics of piracy. All I'm saying is that if there's absolutely no piracy or copying of discs involved, then I think it is legal to lend/borrow games and DVD's.

That's awesome:tmb: mine didn't have games. Now I feel deprived :(

Aww, I didn't mean to burst your bubble :o I guess I didn't realize how lucky I am to have such an awesome library.

Obviously giving a game as a gift is not illegal if it has not been opened yet.

They were indeed open since I bought them used. Besides, even buying new games, they come opened since ****ing Gamestop opens everything and hides the discs behind the counter (they screwed me out of a bonus disc once :hea: Now I triple check everything before I buy it). Although actually now that I think about it, the last few new games I got were still cellophane wrapped and had the discs inside, so maybe they stopped doing that :yah:

But I understand your cynicism about it all. As for the Gamestop issue, I don't have a clue if any of the proceeds go to the manufacturers or producers of the games. I never really considered that to be honest. But that is where I go for all my limited collection of X-Box games. Never sold anything to them though. Cheap *******s... and why would I want store credit to buy something to play on a system you're not giving me enough money to buy?:rolleyes:

Indeed. I buy a lot of used games since I'm catching up on oldies that can't be found new anyway (I figure I'd rather get 10-15 old games than one new game for the same price). However, I'd never sell the games back since I tend to horde everything and besides they really rip you off with the sell-back prices (kind of like college bookstores :hea:).

spikejones
17-02-09, 04:31
I hadn't either until I joined this forum XD I'm rather ignorant about the mechanics of piracy. All I'm saying is that if there's absolutely no piracy or copying of discs involved, then I think it is legal to lend/borrow games and DVD's.

and so now we have come full circle haven't we?
It now gets relegated to an issue of morality it seems. Personally, I see nothing wrong with lending a disc to one person. And I see nothing wrong with having that disc lent to you. The simple act of lending in itself shouldn't be illegal. The only thing that should be illegal is to crack it or otherwise reproduce those materials when you were not the one who purchased it originally. I see nothing wrong with making backup discs of my own software that i have bought - even if it is NOT a part of the EULA. But I guess the corporate whore mongers have it up their ass that lending and copying leads to piracy and as such they will label those acts themselves to be a crime.

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 04:55
And I see nothing wrong with having that disc lent to you. The simple act of lending in itself shouldn't be illegal. The only thing that should be illegal is to crack it or otherwise reproduce those materials when you were not the one who purchased it originally. I see nothing wrong with making backup discs of my own software that i have bought - even if it is NOT a part of the EULA.

This is basically what I have been saying :) As far as I am aware, it is not illegal to lend/borrow media as long as no piracy is involved and no one is making money off it. I also am pretty sure that it's legal to make backup copies of discs, but I didn't think it was legal to circumvent copy protection (even if the copy protection is of questionable legality itself).

But I guess the corporate whore mongers have it up their ass that lending and copying leads to piracy and as such they will label those acts themselves to be a crime.

Well yeah, companies want to make as much money as possible and they'll say whatever they think will achieve that. They can put whatever they want in the EULA, but that doesn't make it legally binding. According to the American Bar Association, "many legal experts doubt the legality of some license limitations." (source (http://www.abanet.org/publiced/practical/software_limitations.html)) They also say we "probably (http://www.abanet.org/publiced/practical/software_backups.html)" have the right to make backup copies in case the original disc gets damaged. If an association with over 400,000 lawyers doesn't even know the answer to what is legal, how is the average citizen supposed to figure it out? :vlol:

spikejones
17-02-09, 05:08
This is basically what I have been saying :) As far as I am aware, it is not illegal to lend/borrow media as long as no piracy is involved and no one is making money off it. I also am pretty sure that it's legal to make backup copies of discs, but I didn't think it was legal to circumvent copy protection (even if the copy protection is of questionable legality itself).



Well yeah, companies want to make as much money as possible and they'll say whatever they think will achieve that. They can put whatever they want in the EULA, but that doesn't make it legally binding. According to the American Bar Association, "many legal experts doubt the legality of some license limitations." (source (http://www.abanet.org/publiced/practical/software_limitations.html)) They also say we "probably (http://www.abanet.org/publiced/practical/software_backups.html)" have the right to make backup copies in case the original disc gets damaged. If an association with over 400,000 lawyers doesn't even know the answer to what is legal, how is the average citizen supposed to figure it out? :vlol:
perhaps a better question would be... what constitutes a legal contract? I know that judges have made rulings based upon a verbal contract to which both parties admitted to having been made, and sometimes even if only one party admitted (usually this happens when the opposite side has been caught previously in a lie). And then there are written contracts such as an apartment lease which dictate the rules regarding that arrangement. This can be viewed as the EULA for an apartment. However, the terms of the "EULA" are made available to the lessee before he signs it and pays any money. So in drawing a parallel, the EULA for a piece of software may be viewed as a digital contract between the lessor and lessee (producer and user). However, the terms of the EULA are not made easily and readily available to the end user UNTIL said user has paid for and opened the package, and inserted the installation disc into their computer. According to the EULA, if you do not agree to the terms set forth, you must cancel the installation of the software. BUT, the retailers of said software package will NOT refund the software purchase once the package has been opened - as this leads to piracy. So... in my eyes, the EULA holds no weight against any law as the terms therein are not made clear until after the producer already has your money in their pockets, and then says "oh and by the way.... no refunds."

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 05:44
perhaps a better question would be... what constitutes a legal contract? I know that judges have made rulings based upon a verbal contract to which both parties admitted to having been made, and sometimes even if only one party admitted (usually this happens when the opposite side has been caught previously in a lie). And then there are written contracts such as an apartment lease which dictate the rules regarding that arrangement. This can be viewed as the EULA for an apartment. However, the terms of the "EULA" are made available to the lessee before he signs it and pays any money. So in drawing a parallel, the EULA for a piece of software may be viewed as a digital contract between the lessor and lessee (producer and user). However, the terms of the EULA are not made easily and readily available to the end user UNTIL said user has paid for and opened the package, and inserted the installation disc into their computer. According to the EULA, if you do not agree to the terms set forth, you must cancel the installation of the software. BUT, the retailers of said software package will NOT refund the software purchase once the package has been opened - as this leads to piracy. So... in my eyes, the EULA holds no weight against any law as the terms therein are not made clear until after the producer already has your money in their pockets, and then says "oh and by the way.... no refunds."

Yes, exactly. Besides, a contract which has an illegal requirement is not legally enforceable. For example, Sony's DRM (http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/sony.shtm) on their music CD's was considered illegal by the Federal Trade Commission and they ended up settling without answering the question in court. The reasons given for why the DRM was illegal sound identical to complaints about Securom, Starforce, and other game DRM programs.

“Installations of secret software that create security risks are intrusive and unlawful,” said FTC Chairman Deborah Platt Majoras. “Consumers’ computers belong to them, and companies must adequately disclose unexpected limitations on the customary use of their products so consumers can make informed decisions regarding whether to purchase and install that content.”

spikejones
17-02-09, 05:58
Yes, exactly. Besides, a contract which has an illegal requirement is not legally enforceable. For example, Sony's DRM (http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/sony.shtm) on their music CD's was considered illegal by the Federal Trade Commission and they ended up settling without answering the question in court. The reasons given for why the DRM was illegal sound identical to complaints about Securom, Starforce, and other game DRM programs.
interesting, never heard of that one. but I guess I wouldn't know since I likely don't listen to any groups that they produce. That is pretty shady practice though. Its good that they got taken to court over it.

In addition to restricting the use of the CDs on computers using the Windows Operating System, the software, which was concealed from consumers, created security vulnerabilities that could allow hackers and other third parties to gain access to consumers’ computers.

apparently the DRM software was only windows based though - so if you had Linux or MAC, it would not have been able to install. However, it is interesting how they were able to slip a ghost installation in there. Would you not see an "autorun" file on the disc if you went to explore it? Or is this to say that the DRM was embedded into the actual files themselves? It made it sound as though it was a spyware application though.

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 06:05
interesting, never heard of that one. but I guess I wouldn't know since I likely don't listen to any groups that they produce. That is pretty shady practice though. Its good that they got taken to court over it.

Indeed. I wish they hadn't settled though. I want a court case to set a clear precedent over whether or not this DRM stuff is legal.

apparently the DRM software was only windows based though - so if you had Linux or MAC, it would not have been able to install. However, it is interesting how they were able to slip a ghost installation in there. Would you not see an "autorun" file on the disc if you went to explore it? Or is this to say that the DRM was embedded into the actual files themselves? It made it sound as though it was a spyware application though.

I don't listen to that much music and all the CD's I own are by other people (not Sony) so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of this. From what I read, it was genuine spyware in that it was recording customer habits for use in targeting ads to them. Apparently Sony also made a USB flashdrive (http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/29/sony-rootkit-security-tech-cx_ag_0829spyware.html) that secretly installed a rootkit on the user's PC. Sony has absolutely no respect for consumer rights.

Edit: Oh, that article says that the CD DRM also installed an invisible rootkit.

spikejones
17-02-09, 17:54
yeah... I noticed that last night, but had to get offline. That's pretty crazy. I can't believe they are still in business. They should stick to just making televisions. Makes me skeptical of getting a Vaio. For all we know, those things may have some sort of rootkit or unadvertised GPS tracking device in them. Seriously, companies that breach trust like that should be punished with more than just a slap on the wrist. They should be forbidden to produce anything else for a computer.

Reggie
17-02-09, 18:01
There is no point of view when it comes to the law. You break the law and get caught? then prepare to face the consequences. What we want the law to be is only wishful thinking and I think most of us would naturally say here that piracy laws should be relaxed so we can make our youtube vids and share music/films/games in peace and harmony. Unfortunately for us, there's a more powerful group of corporates who will ensure that piracy laws, if anything will become further tightened in the future. So what you consider illegal in this argument all hangs on what you would gain from either scenario.

spikejones
17-02-09, 18:18
money is power so they say.

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 18:25
Unfortunately for us, there's a more powerful group of corporates who will ensure that piracy laws, if anything will become further tightened in the future.

Good. They'll get too greedy and take it to the point where Congress realizes what a mess DRM is and then they will not be allowed to have any anti-piracy protection at all. That's how the phone company lost their monopoly on telephone service. They forbid anyone from using any device with the phone that they did not make. Congress asked them if that included people with hearing impairments using hearing aids and they said yes, so Congress had enough and now the phone company no longer has any control over who makes phones.

spikejones
17-02-09, 19:16
personally, I think the public should rally to have vague, convoluted, out of the ordinary EULA restrictions to be stricken from existence. Anything that is out of the ordinary should be clearly stated on the front of the box so that the customer is aware of it (like the ruling in the Sony CD case). And furthermore, those EULA's should not need to be agreed to to before installing it. There should just be a clearly stated law that covers what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Securom and other DRM protections should be removed in order to allow the consumer to conveniently make a backup copy for personal use.

Ward Dragon
17-02-09, 20:39
personally, I think the public should rally to have vague, convoluted, out of the ordinary EULA restrictions to be stricken from existence. Anything that is out of the ordinary should be clearly stated on the front of the box so that the customer is aware of it (like the ruling in the Sony CD case). And furthermore, those EULA's should not need to be agreed to to before installing it. There should just be a clearly stated law that covers what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Securom and other DRM protections should be removed in order to allow the consumer to conveniently make a backup copy for personal use.

I wholeheartedly agree :tmb:

MattTR
17-02-09, 22:14
Legal = Age 18 (in America!)

:p

Carbonek_0051
17-02-09, 22:16
Legal = Age 18 (in America!)

:p

:confused:

What does that have to do with the topic?

Angelus
17-02-09, 22:18
:confused:

What does that have to do with the topic?

"What is illegal from your point of view?"

Althought he did say legal and not illegal.

*Shrug*

Carbonek_0051
17-02-09, 22:20
"What is illegal from your point of view?"

Althought he did say legal and not illegal.

*Shrug*

What does age have to do with downloading stuff though?

Meh whatev I guess.:p

MattTR
17-02-09, 22:23
"What is illegal from your point of view?"

Althought he did say legal and not illegal.

*Shrug*

:confused:

What does that have to do with the topic?

Darn it, that's what I get for misreading the title and skimming through the post.. :(

Alright, illegal to me..

That would be downloading, then re-selling, or perhaps downloading a thousand songs instead of a few single ones you can't find, there's a huge difference. :o

What does age have to do with downloading stuff though?

Meh whatev I guess.:p

Has a lot to do with Xbox live apparently.. :pi: :mad:

Anyways, see above. :hug:

ggctuk
17-02-09, 22:30
I don't know, I think at some point all of this will be a bit like TV where you don't pay for access, per se.

It's illegal to have a TV in the UK without purchasing a TV liscence, which funds the BBC, which I never watch, but they don't care.

spikejones
17-02-09, 22:33
illegal is posting in a thread without reading the post that asks the question, and only providing a vague answer to the title itself.

ggctuk
17-02-09, 22:39
illegal is posting in a thread without reading the post that asks the question, and only providing a vague answer to the title itself.

I was simply clearing up a misconception.

I download a few Japanese Albums, only because you CANNOT get them in any country aside from Japan. When I go there one day, I'll buy them for myself. But I absolutely disagree with posting/selling movies without permission. It's ddifferent in some circumstances (IE LucasFilm has become very relaxed about it as long as you don't use the whole movie), but generally I agree with the law in this case - they deserve to be paid for their work.

spikejones
17-02-09, 23:03
^ I was actually NOT referring to you;)
Legal = Age 18 (in America!)

:p
But you're argument makes it no less illegal to do what you have done. I can see you stating that you ought to be allowed to do it, but it still does not make it legal to do so. If you agree that the artists deserve to be paid for their work, why then do you not seek out a legal form of buying the download or having it shipped to your address? I am quite certain that those opportunities are available regardless of whether the physical media is sold at stores in your country.

name a record and I shall see if it can be purchased online ;)

MattTR
17-02-09, 23:05
I was actually referring to you;)

But you're argument makes it no less illegal to do what you have done. I can see you stating that you ought to be allowed to do it, but it still does not make it legal to do so. If you agree that the artists deserve to be paid for their work, why then do you not seek out a legal form of buying the download or having it shipped to your address? I am quite certain that those opportunities are available regardless of whether the physical media is sold at stores in your country.

name a record and I shall see if it can be purchased online ;)

Well that wasn't the point I was trying to make, there's those who download a few single songs, and there's those who download hundreds of songs, they're both illegal acts, yes, but the person downloading the hundreds is just being plain selfish, I know a lot of people who do it though, and I mean a lot. :(

Larson_1988
17-02-09, 23:08
name a record and I shall see if it can be purchased online ;)

Allright, :D Information Society! ;)

Jo269976
17-02-09, 23:08
Well that wasn't the point I was trying to make, there's those who download a few single songs, and there's those who download hundreds of songs, they're both illegal acts, yes, but the person downloading the hundreds is just being plain selfish, I know a lot of people who do it though, and I mean a lot. :(

The problem is because we can, the temptation gets the better of people who don't want their pockets to be lighter.

However I think the extent that Youtube is being censored is rediculous, I can understand the reason behind it, but it's introducing people to the artist, not to mention someone has to fire up their internet browser if they want to hear it for free, it's not portable.

spikejones
17-02-09, 23:10
a crime is a crime is a crime is a crime though.
people tend not to look at it that way, however if you believe in the doctrine set forth in the Bible, a sin is a sin. Murder is no greater a sin than stealing a stick of bubble gum.

irjudd
17-02-09, 23:12
People will pirate what's easy to pirate. Back in the day it was cassette tapes. Today it's super easy to pirate everything.

TRfan23
17-02-09, 23:14
I'm not sure of this myself but, would it be illegal if you had a copy of a game or song. But it broke by accident, and you downloaded a free copy off the Internet, yes it was an illegal version off the net. But would this still be considered illegal?

People will pirate what's easy to pirate. Back in the day it was cassette tapes. Today it's super easy to pirate everything.

Yeh and it's because it's mostly digital!

spikejones
17-02-09, 23:26
^thats the point I was making to Ward Dragon the other day. And I agree. I was just whacking the guy on the head who said "yeah it's illegal but I do it because.... [insert invalid reason here]"

as for the issue you present. it is questionable. one could argue that you are allowed to have a backup copy incase the orginal media breaks in some way or another - and with the secu rom protection they put on the game discs, this becomes a gray area. It is like you are allowed to, but the game developers do not want you to. Some will say that it is okay to do that if and only if you have the original disc in hand. I agree with that sentiment. But I may as well make the backup myself when I first get it, rather than risk downloading a virus. ;)

Allright, :D Information Society! ;)
try searching here: http://www.apple.com/itunes/
or see here: http://www.mp3sale.ru/artist.php?ms_artistid=5375
or here: http://www.informationsociety.us/insoc-shop/
or here: http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.asp?qsrch=A&WRD=information+society
or here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_dmusic_0_4?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-music&field-keywords=information+society&sprefix=info
I see a few of their albums in there.
The problem is because we can, the temptation gets the better of people who don't want their pockets to be lighter.

However I think the extent that Youtube is being censored is rediculous, I can understand the reason behind it, but it's introducing people to the artist, not to mention someone has to fire up their internet browser if they want to hear it for free, it's not portable.
do not the radio and (oldschool) MTV/MTV2/The Box/Pandora/Spotify/all the music channels on digital cable do the same? Those places have a license to broadcast the copyrighted materials. we don't. not unless we ask for and receive their permission.

Larson_1988
17-02-09, 23:31
I was just giving you an example spikejones, :) They even sell it in Norwegian stores. :]

And Spotify has started to remove many albums from their servers because the music companies/artist has either regretted or never allowed it in the first place.

spikejones
17-02-09, 23:34
i wouldn't know anything about spotify other than a picture anyhow. I can't use it here. But we have pandora. I merely mentioned those two sites to show that you can quite certainly get exposed to new music online for free. as per why a band would regret the decision to use that service, it is beyond me. logic states that you can't get spotify or pandora while cruising in the car without having a laptop and a cellular broadband package... so its not like that website's service will be taking away your entire market.

Larson_1988
17-02-09, 23:37
Not neccesarily true. I know people who have misused the service and found a way to save the music on the computer, so it might just be that they want to prevent. It's the same with Warner doing all the fuzz on Youtube nowadays.

spikejones
17-02-09, 23:55
Not neccesarily true. I know people who have misused the service and found a way to save the music on the computer, so it might just be that they want to prevent. It's the same with Warner doing all the fuzz on Youtube nowadays.
well, this can be analagous with recording FM radio can it not?
with pandora at least, it is more of a radio station that plays music tailored to your taste, but no way to specifically say "i want to hear this song right now". so it may take a long time to record the full new album, as they stagger the playing of those dramatically. spotify may be different though. however, it seems to have some gray area in there as well to whether or not it is illegal to record something that is being streamed to you for free.

like I mentioned before, you can do it with AM/FM radio, you can do it with televsion shows (both with VCR and DVR) so its almost ridiculous for the music labels to get their own special set of rules concerning streaming digital music.

Larson_1988
17-02-09, 23:58
Of course, music piracy has existed for a long time come to think of it. :p

And as you say, TV shows. Heck, i even have a DVD recorder, though i don't use it to record TV shows but rather console footage. :)

spikejones
18-02-09, 00:07
never had a DVD burner of any sort. never was interested in it or had a need for it. but then I found out you had to have one to use windows 7 beta. and apparently there is no way to convert DVD ISO to multiple CD ISOs. bah humbug.

Larson_1988
18-02-09, 00:09
Why isn't that possible?

spikejones
18-02-09, 00:20
not found a way to do it for one.. and for two, the boot info would have to be replicated on all the discs most likely. or so it would seem.

any how, I've been doing some search on lawguru regarding the legality of recording streamed music, and according to one lawyer it depends upon the T&C of that service. See here: http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/message.php?i=557529486&view=a

It depends on the terms by which mp3.com distributes the music. While I have not visited their site, there are probably terms to which you agreed prior to being able to download. Read those terms. In a practical sense, your chances of being sued for copyright infringement for music which you download for personal use only is very small. The targets for those suits are those who download then sell bootleg copies. Notwithstanding the copyright laws and the announcements, thousands will record the Super Bowl. They will not get in trouble unless they try to sell the copies which they have made.


and one on downloading television series using "morpheus". while they both agree that it is infringement of copyright laws, one states that you won't get charged with any crime unless you turn around and try to sell it.
http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/message.php?i=414709866&view=a

It is about the same as taping a show on a VTR, however, it is a technical violation of the copywrite laws. It is not likely that any individual would be prosecuted, unless you made additional copies and sold them to others. Then you are a candidate for prosecution.

Larson_1988
18-02-09, 00:23
And that goes down to it all really, making profit on pirated stuff that one hasn't made or have permission to sell.

voltz
18-02-09, 01:38
try searching here: http://www.apple.com/itunes/
or see here: http://www.mp3sale.ru/artist.php?ms_artistid=5375
or here: http://www.informationsociety.us/insoc-shop/
or here: http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.asp?qsrch=A&WRD=information+society
or here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_dmusic_0_4?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-music&field-keywords=information+society&sprefix=info


I keep thinking ebay and a few pawn shops as I've been able to get some really good albums on the cheap. They don't pay royalties to the labels (or RIAA for that matter), but thats the point and keeps the ballpark in our favor.

spikejones
18-02-09, 01:41
I keep thinking ebay and a few pawn shops as I've been able to get some really good albums on the cheap. They don't pay royalties to the labels (or RIAA for that matter), but thats the point and keeps the ballpark in our favor.
you know.. if you're gonna buy it from someone who isn't giving the proceeds of the sale to the artists or labels, you may as well steal it.

voltz
18-02-09, 01:50
you know.. if you're gonna buy it from someone who isn't giving the proceeds of the sale to the artists or labels, you may as well steal it.

Well if I'm stealing it you may as well join those figureheads and see about making new law amendments or ways to stifle our freedom of use as far as how we're allowed to enjoy media. This whole thread has you aiming in that direction anyway.

tomkat
18-02-09, 07:22
Its illegal if you steal it -
Buying it legally is the best option, but i understand where people are coming from, some people dont have access to a creditcard, and cant buy online, and some people just dont trust in the security of the sites to buy from.
ALso... my sister and I have a rapidshare account we keep alive to get the latest series and stuff from the US as they come out there. In a way its also 'piracy' but the shows we watch dont get shown here on local crap tv. No DVDs get released etc. ANd we're not going to pay any HUGE fees to import a DVD series from overseas.

Its all relative... if you can afford to buy something legally, you have to do so.
If a product you desire is being made difficult for you to own "legally", go ahead and resort to the means you deem neccessary to get it, as long as you dont use it as an excuse or make any profits from it.

spikejones
18-02-09, 16:09
Well if I'm stealing it you may as well join those figureheads and see about making new law amendments or ways to stifle our freedom of use as far as how we're allowed to enjoy media. This whole thread has you aiming in that direction anyway.
no... this whole thread has me logically arguing both sides of the coin ;)
I think you missed a few posts where I argued in the other direction.

irjudd
18-02-09, 16:13
So you're arguing with yourself then. :tmb:

spikejones
18-02-09, 16:33
indeed ;)
it is always good to be able to see both sides of the story in my opinion. I just didn't see how it made sense to say "I only buy from places that don't give royalties to the ones who made it, because thats the point and keeps the ballpark in our favor". Because then you are just giving your money to someone who doesn't deserve it as much as the ones who made it for your enjoyment. So if you are going to be depriving those people of their compensation are you not then stealing anyhow? You may as well steal for free in that case.

But here's the flipside to that very coin. Automobile manufacturers and car dealerships are entitled to their compensation for providing you with a means of transportation. Not considering insurance regulations, you are allowed under law to loan your car to another person. As well you are allowed to sell your used car in a private sale. That money does not go towards compensating the manufacturers (directly) nor to the car dealership. However, this is all perfectly legal under the letter of the law, and no one seems to have any great issues with this.

So it all comes down to your own personal views on whether your actions are right or wrong. The post to which I replied, and noted as the former situation within this post implies nefarious motives and knowledge that it could be done in more "correct" manner.

am I looking down on anyone? hardly! who am I to tell someone not to do something? I quite simply weigh both sides of the equation, perhaps to point out a factor that has been overlooked by the other.

irjudd
18-02-09, 16:37
Perhaps in the end, it is best to pay close attention to what acts get smacked down and what does not, to determine what you will and will not do.

I don't pirate music, but is it because I don't want to get the RIAA hammer launched at me, or because my conscience says it's stealing and therefore wrong? Does the reason matter?

Ah yes, morals and the law.

jaywalker
18-02-09, 16:49
Well this is being one of the most discussed topics on my school course this week. And I decided to post it here to know your opinion.:)

Do you consider illegal downloading a movie which you don't pay for OR do you consider selling that movie and making money out of it illegal ? Or Both ? And why ?

Do you think it matters if it's music or a movie or even a game ? Or is it all the same ?

Or if it's a cave-aged game will it still matter ?

Thank you.

Both are illegal for a reason.. Therefore people doing it are committing an illegal act punishable by the law in most countries.

Doesnt matter if a game, movie, or music.. the fact its illegal tells you ALL you need to know..

Larapink
18-02-09, 17:24
Well this is being one of the most discussed topics on my school course this week. And I decided to post it here to know your opinion.:)

Do you consider illegal downloading a movie which you don't pay for OR do you consider selling that movie and making money out of it illegal ? Or Both ? And why ?

Do you think it matters if it's music or a movie or even a game ? Or is it all the same ?

Or if it's a cave-aged game will it still matter ?

Thank you.
Yeah all of that is illegal, and so it seems over here atleast in the UK we are going to have a new tax over the internet because of all this pirating. That's everyone, here. :(

Lara.Jolie7
19-02-09, 05:14
so... you admit to breaking the law, but call it no big deal since you are just downloading something that someone else made a copy of? how do you draw the difference between someone providing stolen merchandise for free or for profit? In both cases the property is stolen, but you would rather take the stolen property for free than to pay for the stolen property? Or you just do not want to pay regardless of where it originates?

look at it this way... you being the downloader of stolen property are just as guilty of illegal activity as the person who stole it in order to give it to you.



Yes, I break the law in illegal download like a lot of people in the world... (Not saying that I do Illegal download because of then, just saying that I'm not the only one)

I do not incentive the ilegal download, and buy Illegal copys, I have a lot of Illegal musics, movies, games... Some movies impossible to buy here (rare) and games also.

Even guys who work with music do illegal download when a album leak etc

Illegal download IS BAD, but IMO buy a illegal copy is worst (imo)

I have cable tv, with a lot of series but I do preffer to download them and not follow the tv, cuz I don't have time.

Illegal is bad, but nobody can stop it, everyone do in some way
I just hope people buy the real thing if they realy like

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 06:41
The fact that you have doubts as to whether it's right or wrong should be an acceptible answer to your quetsion.

Spong
19-02-09, 06:51
I think it's kinda sad that we have laws protecting people's pursuit of money. So what if a certain music artist or a certain actor or a certain production company loses money because their material is illegally downloaded. Does paying for it stop wars? Does it stop famine? Does it stop children being murdered? Does it stop global warming?

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 07:10
It may not stop wars, famine, or murder, but it significantly decreases the amount of people stealing from you.

You wouldn't want people to steal your money, now would you?

Spong
19-02-09, 13:00
Pardon? People paying for material stops them stealing from me, or people illegally downloading them stops them stealing from me? I don't get what you're saying.

As for my money being stolen, I really wouldn't care (seriously). I don't have that much to be worth stealing and I wouldn't cry over it if it was. I'm not superficial like that, there's other more important things in life. I'd be more upset if my best friend was murdered, or if they were called away to war. The only reason I use money at all is because it's a necessary evil, I certainly place no real value in it.

But anyway, back on topic...

Lew
19-02-09, 15:02
I'm not sure, cause I buy my music, films etc. but I have done/do other illegal stuff while i've been out. So i'm not sure :/. But then again I suppose everyones done at least one thing illegal in their lifetime.

Joely-Moley
19-02-09, 16:11
I think it's kinda sad that we have laws protecting people's pursuit of money. So what if a certain music artist or a certain actor or a certain production company loses money because their material is illegally downloaded. Does paying for it stop wars? Does it stop famine? Does it stop children being murdered? Does it stop global warming?

What does what it doesn’t stop have to do with anything?

You don’t think musicians, and people in the industry should be paid for their work? It’s not just the big record labels and publishing companies that get affected by this. A lot of times it’s the little guy that suffers in all this.

I was talking to a guy in a band not too long ago. They are a signed band but they aren’t that well known, though they do made a living out of it. He said that due to the amount of people downloading their C.Ds the royalty check’s they would recive is so much smaller than say 5 years ago and though he wasn’t in it to make lots of money, he said he was finding it harder and harder to be able to make enough to support himself.

It’s just something to think about, the current
state of the industry makes it harder for a lot of smaller artists to survive.