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violentblossom
18-02-09, 19:35
Someone recently said that we needed an Abortion discussion thread in this forum, and so i guess, this is it.

Read on:

http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=333726

laralover_07
18-02-09, 19:39
Just another one of those threads that will end in tears...

Oh well, might as well. I'm all for abortion, once. One mistake, one abortion. From then on it's your problem.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 19:42
Just another one of those threads that will end in tears...

Oh well, might as well. I'm all for abortion, once. One mistake, one abortion. From then on it's your problem.So do you think it's acceptable to abort a baby at 20 weeks?

Personally I don't think abortion should ever be completely banned, but I think it should only be allowed in extraordinary circumstances such as if the mother's life is in danger or the mother was raped.

laralover_07
18-02-09, 19:45
So do you think it's acceptable to abort a baby at 20 weeks?

No not 20 weeks. I can't put a counter on it, but it's the parents-to-be's responsibility to know if they want the baby before then. I'd say between when the morning-after pill is useless, to when it's obvious you are pregnant.

Make sense? Probably not. :o

Forwen
18-02-09, 19:47
Remind me not to get raped in North Dakota O_o

laralover_07
18-02-09, 19:47
Remind me not to get raped in North Dakota O_o

Don't get raped in North Dakota.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 19:48
I used to think it was okay after a rape, but since having my daughter, i'm on the fence about that.

I'm strongly against abortion.

voltz
18-02-09, 19:50
Nice going N Dakota. I hope you're planning to make room for orphaned children while you're at it.

Punaxe
18-02-09, 19:50
In the Netherlands the limit is at 24 weeks, which because of a safety margin used by doctors, usually ends up being around 21 weeks. The basis for putting the limit at 24, is that after that time, it becomes possible for the foetus to survive and fully develop outside of the mother's womb.
Personally however I think the line should be drawn at the point that the nervous system becomes properly developed. This is around the same time, I believe 26 weeks.

toxicraider
18-02-09, 19:52
Sorry if this sounds dumb, but won't people be able to get on in a different state? :confused:

Although I don't think it's right to ban abortion with no exception.

Angelus
18-02-09, 20:02
Remind me not to get raped in North Dakota O_o

*Dies*

:vlol:

ShadyCroft
18-02-09, 20:09
Personally I don't think abortion should ever be completely banned, but I think it should only be allowed in extraordinary circumstances such as if the mother's life is in danger or the mother was raped.

:tmb: That's exactly my opinion as well. Abortion for me is ok if the mother is in danger, was raped and doesn't want the child, or if the baby is suffering from certain genetic/physical issues...other than that, I do not approve of it.

Relaxing the rules is bound to let some people try and take advantage of it, and abortion would be a piece of cake or some sort of game. "Let's have sex, honey, and if I get ooops pregnant don't worry. I'll abort it" :mad: that would be sick !

I used to think it was okay after a rape, but since having my daughter, i'm on the fence about that.

I'm strongly against abortion.

But what if the raped girl was too young and doesn't have maternity experience and doesn't want the child (whether because she can't support it financially, or provide a good home or environment, or simply doesn't want to have one) ??

voltz
18-02-09, 20:10
Isn't there supposed to be a treatment for rape victims to prevent pregnancy? If so I wonder what the state law has to say on that?

ShadyCroft
18-02-09, 20:14
^^ What do you mean exactly by treatment for victims of rape to prevent their pregnancy ? I doubt a rapist would wait and say "Oh its alright ! I'll give you one minute to take the pill."

violentblossom
18-02-09, 20:15
But what if the raped girl was too young and doesn't have maternity experience and doesn't want the child (whether because she can't support it financially, or provide a good home or environment, or simply doesn't want to have one) ??


Well, i guess it'd have to depend on the case's circumstances. That right there would be an example where i could understand the choice.

Drone
18-02-09, 20:15
Dakota? Now I wanna visit that place :)

voltz
18-02-09, 20:16
^^ What do you mean exactly by treatment for victims of rape to prevent their pregnancy ? I doubt a rapist would wait and say "Oh its alright ! I'll give you one minute to take the pill."

No I mean a way to prevent conception from taking place. A woman doesn't want to progress to this point so pro-life activists and bible thumpers have a say in how her fate is supposed to pan out.

ShadyCroft
18-02-09, 20:17
Well, i guess it'd have to depend on the case's circumstances. That right there would be an example where i could understand the choice.

yes, that's what I'd say as well. :)

violentblossom
18-02-09, 20:17
No I mean a way to prevent conception from taking place. A woman doesn't want to progress to this point so pro-life activists and bible thumpers have a say in how her fate is supposed to pan out.

there is the "morning after" pill.

you can take it up to 3 days later.

amiro1989
18-02-09, 20:17
I'm not going to even start on this subject.

Sad. :(

Bustus
18-02-09, 20:20
Tsk tsk. Glad I'm not even American. :)

God Horus
18-02-09, 20:22
I am not going to start a massive debate or anything but I am just going to state my opinion: I do not think abortion is wrong.

voltz
18-02-09, 20:28
there is the "morning after" pill.

you can take it up to 3 days later.

ok if it works then the victim is fine, no problem. I'm not sure if that's 100% effective, but there needs to be a clause in Dakota's law just for that very sake.

Tsk tsk. Glad I'm not even American. :)

Wa..ey....you.....go'on git!!

ShadyCroft
18-02-09, 20:30
I am not going to start a massive debate or anything but I am just going to state my opinion: I do not think abortion is wrong.

But it's not right anytime either, at least that's what my opinion is. I know where you're coming from, and I too was ok with it, and I know if some one doesn't want the baby I can understand the desire for abortion, but you cant deny there will be those who WILL abuse the legislation of abortion.

I don't want to start an argument with you either, just simply wanted to say that even though you're ok with because you're not some one who does it frequently and in an instant, but there are those who will go way out of line.

george_croft
18-02-09, 20:39
Wow. That's just sad.

Tihocan9
18-02-09, 20:57
Awesome :) I only hope this spreads into more states and other countries.

McGloomy
18-02-09, 21:00
Tsk tsk. Glad I'm not even American. :)
Sums up my feelings perfectly. I'm fine with my country's point on the subject.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:02
Oh my god. There are times when I'm happy to live in Germany :rolleyes:...

Awesome :) I only hope this spreads into more states and other countries.

Oh. Of course! Because all the world needs are 15-year-old, helpless mothers who don't even have the slightest idea of what a small child needs.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:05
People seem to be getting confused here. This isn't the entire nation, it's a state of about 650,000 people. Take any American and there's only about a 1 in 500 chance you'll get somebody from North Dakota. I don't think it's that bad anyway. It's just as bad as allowing abortion for anything IMO.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:11
But it's not right anytime either, at least that's what my opinion is. I know where you're coming from, and I too was ok with it, and I know if some one doesn't want the baby I can understand the desire for abortion, but you cant deny there will be those who WILL abuse the legislation of abortion.

I don't want to start an argument with you either, just simply wanted to say that even though you're ok with because you're not some one who does it frequently and in an instant, but there are those who will go way out of line.

As you usually have to pay for abortion yourself and it's not that cheap I don't think it will simply be "abused". Although we might misunderstand eachother as to what abusing of abortion is exactly.

People seem to be getting confused here. This isn't the entire nation, it's a state of about 650,000 people. Take any American and there's only about a 1 in 500 chance you'll get somebody from North Dakota. I don't think it's that bad anyway. It's just as bad as allowing abortion for anything IMO.

This thread is not just about North Dakota. Sure. The thread title says so. But the thread starter said in the first post that this thread is also a general thread for discussion about abortion. Besides, it's pretty clear that people start discussing their general opinion on the topic.

McGloomy
18-02-09, 21:12
This isn't the entire nation, it's a state of about 650,000 people.
Nevertheless it would pretty much suck to be a girl from North Dakota now, wouldn't it?

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:16
Nevertheless it would pretty much suck to be a girl from North Dakota now, wouldn't it?

I'd say it would suck to be a stupid girl from North Dakota.

voltz
18-02-09, 21:17
Double-rape is what I fear happening here. First it's the straggler, then everyone else takes a ride.

aw **** it, the system needs more working hands anyway.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:17
This thread is not just about North Dakota. Sure. The thread title says so. But the thread starter said in the first post that this thread is also a general thread for discussion about abortion. Besides, it's pretty clear that people start discussing their general opinion on the topic.I know but people are saying stuff like "glad I don't live in America" when 99.5% of all Americans don't live in a place where abortion is banned.

Nevertheless it would pretty much suck to be a girl from North Dakota now, wouldn't it?Not really.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:18
I'd say it would suck to be a stupid girl from North Dakota.

It's not like unintended pregnancy only happens to stupid people.

voltz
18-02-09, 21:21
news like this makes me want to hurt people....

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23500396-details/Pregnant+11-year-old+Romanian+rape+victim+may+travel+to+UK+for+abor tion+because+of+our+longer+legal+limit/article.do

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:22
It's not like unintended pregnancy only happens to stupid people.

no, but i don't think most people who become unintentionally pregnant have abortions.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:23
I know but people are saying stuff like "glad I don't live in America" when 99.5% of all Americans don't live in a place where abortion is banned.


But America is in general less...open-minded when it comes to these kinds of things. That's what most people (including me) mean. I mean...I wouldn't really affected by an abortion ban, anyway, as I'm a guy (and more into men than women :p). But it's just this whole mentality of the American legislature.

no, but i don't think most people who become unintentionally pregnant have abortions.

What does this have to do with stupid girls?

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:23
news like this makes me want to hurt people....

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23500396-details/Pregnant+11-year-old+Romanian+rape+victim+may+travel+to+UK+for+abor tion+because+of+our+longer+legal+limit/article.doIndeed. I can't believe it. Disgusting. Also, 20 weeks! On top of that, it's the taxpayer that's gonna be paying for that.

@Zebra: So caring for the rights of an unborn child is closed-minded? Now I don't agree with banning abortion completely, but it's just one state (and a small one at that), not the entire country.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:24
news like this makes me want to hurt people....

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23500396-details/Pregnant+11-year-old+Romanian+rape+victim+may+travel+to+UK+for+abor tion+because+of+our+longer+legal+limit/article.do

me, too.

people suck.

Lara's home
18-02-09, 21:25
I know but people are saying stuff like "glad I don't live in America" when 99.5% of all Americans don't live in a place where abortion is banned.

There's loads of other reasons people are glad not to live in America.
This is just icing on the cake.

McGloomy
18-02-09, 21:26
I know but people are saying stuff like "glad I don't live in America" when 99.5% of all Americans don't live in a place where abortion is banned.
If decisions like this were made in a small state of Germany I would have serious doubts about my country as a whole and our seperation of government and religion.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:26
Indeed. I can't believe it. Disgusting. Also, 20 weeks! On top of that, it's the taxpayer that's gonna be paying for that.

It's an 11-year-old girl!!!

@Zebra: So caring for the rights of an unborn child is closed-minded? Now I don't agree with banning abortion completely, but it's just one state (and a small one at that), not the entire country.

Well. If one state can do it others can do it, too. And that's the really shocking thing.

Paddy
18-02-09, 21:27
So do you think it's acceptable to abort a baby at 20 weeks?

Personally I don't think abortion should ever be completely banned, but I think it should only be allowed in extraordinary circumstances such as if the mother's life is in danger or the mother was raped.

I agree with that, whilst banning abortion isnt the right move to make, leaving abortions until 2 weeks is a bit dangerous, I know because I know people who have had 3 abortions. But banning it wont solve anything.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:27
If decisions like this were made in a small state of Germany I would have serious doubts about my country as a whole and our seperation of government and religion.Wait, where does religion come into this? You don't have to be religious to be against abortions. My step is generally against abortions, and he's the least religious person you'll find.


Well. If one state can do it others can do it, too. And that's the really shocking thing.So? These laws can also be undone. As I said earlier, I think allowing abortions for any circumstance is just as bad as banning it completely.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:30
Wait, where does religion come into this? You don't have to be religious to be against abortions. My step is generally against abortions, and he's the least religious person you'll find.

Many decisions like these have to do with religion. It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what the people in North Dakota think who support the ban. And I guess their thoughts are not the same as yours.

toxicraider
18-02-09, 21:30
Indeed. I can't believe it. Disgusting. Also, 20 weeks! On top of that, it's the taxpayer that's gonna be paying for that.
:whi:
A Romanian living in Britain has volunteered to finance the costs. On Wednesday, the parents received passports.

If this is ignoring religion and is based on simple morals, then it should still be the mother's choice for a short amount of time.

voltz
18-02-09, 21:30
There's loads of other reasons people are glad not to live in America.
This is just icing on the cake.

Care to enlighten us?

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:31
:whi:My bad. Didn't read the whole article. But still, 20 weeks. That's pretty shocking. Couldn't she just put it up for adoption of something?

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:33
So? These laws can also be undone. As I said earlier, I think allowing abortions for any circumstance is just as bad as banning it completely.

And that is why? After the unborn child has reached a certain age it should, of course not be possible. But before that you should at least be given the chance to do it.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:33
But America is in general less...open-minded when it comes to these kinds of things. That's what most people (including me) mean. I mean...I wouldn't really affected by an abortion ban, anyway, as I'm a guy (and more into men than women :p). But it's just this whole mentality of the American legislature.



What does this have to do with stupid girls?

*sigh*

because young girls who get pregnant tend to turn to abortion like its the only solution, because they only care about themselves and their own situation instead of taking the baby's life into account. that is stupid to me.

maybe "immature" works better for you?

Paddy
18-02-09, 21:33
Abortions for any reason arent a wise choice but then who is anyone to dictate what women can do with their bodies or not?
Sure before you have an abortion you should think carefully and be certain but in the end its upto them.

toxicraider
18-02-09, 21:33
My bad. Didn't read the whole article. But still, 20 weeks. That's pretty shocking. Couldn't she just put it up for adoption of something?

I don't know, if she was related to her uncle it might be unfair to bring the child up, but if it's healthy, then adoption could easily be an option.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:35
My bad. Didn't read the whole article. But still, 20 weeks. That's pretty shocking. Couldn't she just put it up for adoption of something?

You don't get it. Can you even imagine how shocking it must be for an 11-year-old girl to be raped and than experience a pregnancy. And it is not that easy for to just give your child away. I doubt that it would be good for the girl. She has gone through enough crap.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:35
And that is why? After the unborn child has reached a certain age it should, of course not be possible. But before that you should at least be given the chance to do it.It's denying a life. Abortion should not be used as birth control.

@Zebra: I take it you don't know what an abortion would be like for a baby at 20 weeks?

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:35
It's denying a life. Abortion should not be used as birth control.

quite right, imo. not in the everyday sense, again.. certain cases, though, should be treated differently.

McGloomy
18-02-09, 21:36
Wait, where does religion come into this? You don't have to be religious to be against abortions. My step is generally against abortions, and he's the least religious person you'll find.
North Dakota? As far as I know that's one of America's most Christian states... I don't want to jump to conclusions but I sense some kind of connection there. ;)

But seriously, I remember the last time I wanted to discuss abortion here (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=122648)...

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:37
*sigh*

because young girls who get pregnant tend to turn to abortion like its the only solution, because they only care about themselves and their own situation instead of taking the baby's life into account. that is stupid to me.

maybe "immature" works better for you?

So you think that these "immature" girls are able to actually care for a small child properly? Without abortion they will just put the baby into the freezer after birth or something. We've had plenty of those things here in Germany. What's worse?

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:38
North Dakota? As far as I know that's one of America's most Christian states... I don't want to jump to conclusions but I sense some kind of connection there. ;)

But seriously, I remember the last time I wanted to discuss abortion here (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=122648)...America's most "Christian states" are in the south. I'm sorry, but you can't just make blanket statements and automatically assume that somebody opposing abortion must oppose it solely because of their religion.

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 21:39
North Dakota = One Step Back For America

I believe that it should be up to the pregnant woman whether or not she wants to have an abortion. Banning them is not going to solve anything. Instead, pregnant girls are going to try to get rid the zygote/embryo/fetus in other ways. I'd rather these women be safe. ;)

toxicraider
18-02-09, 21:39
You don't get it. Can you even imagine how shocking it must be for an 11-year-old girl to be raped and than experience a pregnancy. And it is not that easy for to just give your child away. I doubt that it would be good for the girl. She has gone through enough crap.

If she has the abortion, she'd still have to pass the dead child, which wouldn't be much more pleasant. Although 11 is still very young for pregnancy.

Zebra
18-02-09, 21:39
@Zebra: I take it you don't know what an abortion would be like for a baby at 20 weeks?

That baby has not experienced much yet. It has not had enough time to really develop an own personality. The girl has had. So the girl's live is more valuable.

amiro1989
18-02-09, 21:39
North Dakota = One Step Back For America

I believe that it should be up to the pregnant woman whether or not she wants to have an abortion. Banning them is not going to solve anything. Instead, pregnant girls are going to try to get rid the zygote/embryo/fetus in other ways. I'd rather these women be safe. ;)

Ditto.

It should remain a personal choice.

Paddy
18-02-09, 21:39
Opposing it is one thing and Im all for freedom of speech but banning it is taking it to the extreme.

North Dakota = One Step Back For America

I believe that it should be up to the pregnant woman whether or not she wants to have an abortion. Banning them is not going to solve anything. Instead, pregnant girls are going to try to get rid the zygote/embryo/fetus in other ways. I'd rather these women be safe. ;)
Great post, cant agree more, its their choice.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:40
So you think that these "immature" girls are able to actually care for a small child properly? Without abortion they will just put the baby into the freezer after birth or something. We've had plenty of those things here in Germany. What's worse?

if a girl made the decision to have sex, then HELL YES, she should deal with the consequences.. now, if she can't provide a good home, then she can give the child up for adoption.

having sex, and then saying "Whoops! I made a mistake, but it's okay, i'll just kill the baby and go on with my everyday life" is flat out SELFISH. plenty of couples out there can't have their own children and would love to have one.

also, personality or not, that baby has every friggin' right to live.. youre killing a living, helpless creature, a human BEING, no less.

Paddy
18-02-09, 21:42
if a girl made the decision to have sex, then HELL YES, she should deal with the consequences.. now, if she can't provide a good home, then she can give the child up for adoption.

having sex, and then saying "Whoops! I made a mistake, but it's okay, i'll just kill the baby and go on with my everyday life" is flat out SELFISH. plenty of couples out there can't have their own children and would love to have one.

I agree that is selfish and silly but the cases where they dont mean to get pregnant like say the blokes condom breaks without notice or she was raped, those are circumstances too which an abortion may be needed.

But disagree with what you edited, you almost say it like the mother is a cold heartless killer?

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:42
That baby has not experienced much yet. It has not had enough time to really develop an own personality. The girl has had. So the girl's live is more valuable.No, I mean, you obviously don't know about the abortion process at that late stage? How is the girls life more important? They're both lives. You can't just deny one of them.

McGloomy
18-02-09, 21:44
America's most "Christian states" are in the south. I'm sorry, but you can't just make blanket statements and automatically assume that somebody opposing abortion must oppose it solely because of their religion.
I never assumed you were Christian or implied your arguments were motivated by religion. I'm just talking about the (Republican) government of North Dakota. That state is full of Christians, unfortunately they didn't bother to move to the south.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:45
I agree that is selfish and silly but the cases where they dont mean to get pregnant like say the blokes condom breaks without notice or she was raped, those are circumstances too which an abortion may be needed.

But disagree with what you edited, you almost say it like the mother is a cold heartless killer?

If you're big enough to have sex, then you need to be big enough to deal with the consequences. Bottomline.

If the condom breaks, then again, you knew there was risk when using a condom. *shrug*

Also, about my editing, that's how alot of these girls seem to feel about it, ya know? I had a close friend who did the same thing... she wasn't cautious eiether time she got pregnant, and she had 2 abortions... i was shocked after #2 because it had devastated her so completely.

No, I mean, you obviously don't know about the abortion process at that late stage? How is the girls life more important? They're both lives. You can't just deny one of them.

:tmb:

toxicraider
18-02-09, 21:45
No, I mean, you obviously don't know about the abortion process at that late stage? How is the girls life more important? They're both lives. You can't just deny one of them.

Yeah, they are a similar experince, by 20 weeks, she'll have gone through most of the pregnancy, and as I said
If she has the abortion, she'd still have to pass the dead child, which wouldn't be much more pleasant.

Edit;
^^
agreed :tmb:, you can't rely just on condoms, up to 15% failure rate!

ShadyCroft
18-02-09, 21:45
My bad. Didn't read the whole article. But still, 20 weeks. That's pretty shocking. Couldn't she just put it up for adoption of something?

and make its life most likely even worse ?! A child growing up not knowing his biological parents isn't really a good thing. It'd be hard for him/her.

If that happened in Jordan I would have told you "Cause that's what the nation needs..more children being thrown away". Its not very long ago that kids were always found in dumpsters by police abandoned by their parents...Now that I call sick.

I don't disagree with the 11-year child getting abortion. She barely knows anything about maternity and she probably unwillingly was raped by her uncle. You, yourself and violetblossom, said that it was ok to get abortion in this case, why do you say its disgusting and sick now ? :confused:

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 21:46
I, personally, don't consider a fetus' life as valuable as the mother's. She should always take priority. In every situation. :)

amiro1989
18-02-09, 21:47
I, personally, don't consider a fetus' life as valuable as the mother's. She should always take priority. In every situation. :)

I love you. :hug:

Lara's home
18-02-09, 21:48
I, personally, don't consider a fetus' life as valuable as the mother's. She should always take priority. In every situation. :)

Completely agree.
Not only does the fetus not have any inteligence or feelings, but you could just as well save it from a terrible childhood if it were to be born.
So instead of denying one life, you want to destroy 2-3?

Paddy
18-02-09, 21:48
I, personally, don't consider a fetus' life as valuable as the mother's. She should always take priority. In every situation. :)

Exactly, the mother isnt killing anyone providing its an early abortion, if left for 20 weeks like this case then well its a bit late to have one.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:48
and make its life most likely even worse ?! A child growing up not knowing his biological parents isn't really a good thing. It'd be hard for him/her.

If that happened in Jordan I would have told you "Cause that's what the nation needs..more children being thrown away". Its not very long ago that kids were always found in dumpsters by police abandoned by their parents...Now that I call sick.

I don't disagree with the 11-year child getting abortion. She barely knows anything about maternity and she probably unwillingly was raped by her uncle. You, yourself and violetblossom, said that it was ok to get abortion in this case, why do you say its disgusting and sick now ? :confused:

no, her case i DO understand, as she was raped and also by her uncle, i'm talking about generalities again.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:49
I, personally, don't consider a fetus' life as valuable as the mother's. She should always take priority. In every situation. :)Yeah, because this obviously isn't a life.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/10_02/foetusDM1210_468x505.jpg

Baby at 20 weeks.

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 21:51
I actually did call it a life. :confused: However, I said that the mother's life is more valuable. When it comes to the 20 week situation, I think that's a tad ridiculous. There does need to be a cut off point. I don't think they should be able to abort the fetus up until the last day, like you're acting. :rolleyes:

Paddy
18-02-09, 21:52
Obviously when its at its early stages its a different story.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 21:52
I actually did call it a life. :confused: However, I said that the mother's life is more valuable. When it comes to the 20 week situation, I think that's a tad ridiculous. There does need to be a cut off point. I don't think they should be able to abort the fetus up until the last day, like you're acting. :rolleyes:But it's still a life. A life's a life. Where's the difference?

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 21:53
Obviously when its at its early stages its a different story.

Exactly. :tmb: I'm supportive of birth control, the morning after pill, and the mother's choice for an abortion early on in pregnancy. :)

But it's still a life. A life's a life. Where's the difference? The mother has lived for years, has knowledge, and experiences. She should obviously (not a second thought in my mind) take priority over the fetus. I don't understand how you could consider them equal... :confused:

Lara's home
18-02-09, 21:55
But it's still a life. A life's a life. Where's the difference?

Is it as bad as killing? They also have a life you know? Where's the difference?

voltz
18-02-09, 21:56
I, personally, don't consider a fetus' life as valuable as the mother's. She should always take priority. In every situation. :)

Now if everyone had that train of thought this discussion wouldn't even be taking place.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:56
Is it as bad as killing or testing animals? They also have a life you know? Where's the difference?

i'm not for testing on animals, eiether, or killing animals, unless for food (and then, i'd wish it was humanely as possible).

Punaxe
18-02-09, 21:57
But it's still a life. A life's a life. Where's the difference?

Do you consider sperm cells to be life? Where do you draw the line?

violentblossom
18-02-09, 21:59
Do you consider sperm cells to be life? Where do you draw the line?

no, i wouldn't consider sperm cells to be a life.

voltz
18-02-09, 21:59
Do you consider sperm cells to be life? Where do you draw the line?

Bush drew the line on stem cells, he don't know what the @%#$ he's doing.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 22:00
The mother has lived for years, has knowledge, and experiences. She should obviously (not a second thought in my mind) take priority over the fetus. I don't understand how you could consider them equal... :confused:So what? They're still both lives and I can't understand how you can consider them unequal.

Do you consider sperm cells to be life? Where do you draw the line?I'm talking about human life here.

Paddy
18-02-09, 22:00
Exactly. :tmb: I'm supportive of birth control, the morning after pill, and the mother's choice for an abortion early on in pregnancy. :)

The mother has lived for years, has knowledge, and experiences. She should obviously (not a second thought in my mind) take priority over the fetus. I don't understand how you could consider them equal... :confused:

I dont understand how some consider the baby equal to the mother, mother should always have first priority.

Punaxe
18-02-09, 22:01
no, i wouldn't consider sperm cells to be a life.

(...) I'm talking about human life here.

When does human life begin?

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 22:01
This is honestly a situation where we're all going to have to agree to disagree. We all seem to have our minds set, and discussing this is getting us nowhere...

violentblossom
18-02-09, 22:01
I dont understand how some consider the baby equal to the mother, mother should always have first priority.

well, would you say a child's life is more important than an adult, based on purely experience?

i don't think there's any reason to end this discussion, were all being civil.

i definately don't think that there is a life until a little after the sperm and egg merge.. i don't really know when exactly, but at 20 weeks there is DEFINATELY a human life.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 22:02
This is honestly a situation where we're all going to have to agree to disagree. We all seem to have our minds set, and discussing this is getting us nowhere...I agree with you on that one.

Paddy
18-02-09, 22:03
This is honestly a situation where we're all going to have to agree to disagree. We all seem to have our minds set, and discussing this is getting us nowhere...
Indeed, everyones had their say.

toxicraider
18-02-09, 22:03
Ok, so is the mother's life + the childs life not more important than just the mother's life?

I don't know if you can possibly make a judgement without seeing each individual case.
The crazy thing is, in this girl's circumstance, the limit for abortion is the same in the UK as for Romania, so they should really have just appealed at home.

Zebra
18-02-09, 22:09
if a girl made the decision to have sex, then HELL YES, she should deal with the consequences.. now, if she can't provide a good home, then she can give the child up for adoption.


Now you're not thinking about the child. What will happen to the child if the mother can't care for it properly? What will happen to it if it is given up for adoption?

Quasimodo
18-02-09, 22:10
This is honestly a situation where we're all going to have to agree to disagree. We all seem to have our minds set, and discussing this is getting us nowhere...

So you'd think. I used to be certain and dead-set against the idea of abortion, now I'm very much on the fence. If you believe abortion is murder, does that mean you'll consider the woman who got the abortion a murderer? Chances are a woman in your life has had an abortion, for whatever reason - that woman could be your sister, your mother, a friend, girlfriend - are you prepared to call her a murderer if you call what she did murder? That's one of the big questions that unsettled me out of my certainty.

Zebra
18-02-09, 22:10
This is honestly a situation where we're all going to have to agree to disagree. We all seem to have our minds set, and discussing this is getting us nowhere...

That was pretty clear from the start. But it's always nice to see the other side of the coin.

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 22:11
Now you're not thinking about the child. What will happen to the child if the mother can't care for it properly? What will happen to it ifit is given up for adoption?That's just speculation though.

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 22:12
So you'd think. I used to be certain and dead-set against the idea of abortion, now I'm very much on the fence. If you believe abortion is murder, does that mean you'll consider the woman who got the abortion a murderer? Chances are a woman in your life has had an abortion, for whatever reason - that woman could be your sister, your mother, a friend, girlfriend - are you prepared to call her a murderer if you call what she did murder? That's one of the big questions that unsettled me out of my certainty.

That certainly is an interesting way of putting it. :p I support the choice, but I do have some reservations. A friend of mine had an abortion, and will now never be able to have kids again. It makes me sad every time I think about it. She really wanted a family some day. :(

EDIT: I wouldn't consider myself on the fence, however. I will always stand strong in my beliefs...

Zebra
18-02-09, 22:12
That's just speculation though.

That is what will happen if immature girls get a baby. And that's what we were talking about a few pages back.

voltz
18-02-09, 22:13
Now you're not thinking about the child. What will happen to the child if the mother can't care for it properly? What will happen to it if it is given up for adoption?

Them's the breaks kid. Top priority comes first.

Paddy
18-02-09, 22:15
EDIT: I wouldn't consider myself on the fence, however. I will always stand strong in my beliefs...

Dont know why you made your text smaller :p I respect people like you for standing strong with your beliefs, you and Quasimodo have made great points in regards to abortion.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 22:15
Now you're not thinking about the child. What will happen to the child if the mother can't care for it properly? What will happen to it if it is given up for adoption?

when a child is given up for adoption, they don't just give that child up to anybody, they do lots and lots of checks to make sure whoever is adopting is mentally healthy, and financially ready and such.

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 22:17
Dont know why you made your text smaller :p I respect people like you for standing strong with your beliefs, you and Quasimodo have made great points in regards to abortion.

I appreciate that. :hug: The text thing is just an OCD part of me. It looks more orderly to me, for some reason. :p

when a child is given up for adoption, they don't just give that child up to anybody, they do lots and lots of checks to make sure whoever is adopting is mentally healthy, and financially ready and such.

No offense, but that's the most ignorant thing I've read in this thread. Not every child goes to a good home. You're only joking with yourself. There are thousands of kids who wind up in foster care. Many foster parents neglect and even molest their children. That's not better than abortion. Instead, they then have to live a full SCARRED life? That sucks.

Zebra
18-02-09, 22:18
when a child is given up for adoption, they don't just give that child up to anybody, they do lots and lots of checks to make sure whoever is adopting is mentally healthy, and financially ready and such.

But it is still not the same as living with the real parents.

Them's the breaks kid. Top priority comes first.

Make yourself clear. What IS the top priority in your opinion?

violentblossom
18-02-09, 22:19
But it is still not the same as living with the real parents.

you're right, it'd probably be better.

and excuse me, Assassin, we aren't talking FOSTER parents, who are pretty much temps.. how very rude of you.

no need to be nasty.

Legends
18-02-09, 22:20
Ridicules!

Lew
18-02-09, 22:21
I bet you anything that men made this decision......

toxicraider
18-02-09, 22:23
No offense, but that's the most ignorant thing I've read in this thread. Not every child goes to a good home. You're only joking with yourself. There are thousands of kids who wind up in foster care. Many foster parents neglect and even molest their children. That's not better than abortion. Instead, they then have to live a full SCARRED life? That sucks.

How is a bad foster family any more likely than a bad real family?
If they are going to put the effort into raising a child they didn't have to have, then it's more likely they'll be better carers for the child, than real parents who had the child, but can't really be bothered with it.

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 22:23
and excuse me, Assasin, we aren't talking FOSTER parents, who are pretty much temps.. how very rude of you.

no need to be nasty.

I don't give a **** what you were talking about. Not all kids are adopted into nice families, like you're acting. My grandmother went into foster care as a newborn, and later ADOPTED. She was treated like a piece of trash for 15 years of her life. Then, she was on the streets. Not all adopted kids have good lives. :mad:

By the way, you spelled Assassin wrong. ;)

How is a bad foster family any more likely than a bad real family?
If they are going to put the effort into raising a child they didn't have to have, then it's more likely they'll be better carers for the child than real parents who had the child but can't really be bothered with it.

Sorry, but can you re-word your post? Your lack of punctuation is confusing me...

oocladableeblah
18-02-09, 22:24
I don't think it is right to completely take that right(?) to have an abortion. I am not saying I am for it, but I think if someone needs it for whatever circumstance they should be able to have that option.
As whether I am for or against abortion I am on the fence about it I think it is wrong, but at the same time I feel that it is okay for certain circumstances like rape or medical reasons. Also I am a guy so I don't really know what it is like and never will to be in that situation.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 22:26
I don't give a **** what you were talking about. Not all kids are adopted into nice families, like you're acting. My grandmother went into foster care as a newborn, and later ADOPTED. She was treated like a piece of trash for 15 years of her life. Then, she was on the streets. Not all adopted kids have good lives. :mad:

By the way, you spelled Assassin wrong. ;)

go look a few posts back, i corrected the spelling.

you obviously can't handle this topic, judging by your lash out just now.

you're going onto my ignore list.

i wasn't talking about foster parenting, so really, you just attacked me for no particular reason. what on earth did i do to you?

amiro1989
18-02-09, 22:26
I don't give a **** what you were talking about. Not all kids are adopted into nice families, like you're acting. My grandmother went into foster care as a newborn, and later ADOPTED. She was treated like a piece of trash for 15 years of her life. Then, she was on the streets. Not all adopted kids have good lives. :mad:

By the way, you spelled Assassin wrong. ;)



Sorry, but can you re-word your post? Your lack of puncuation is confusing me...

Exactly.

Some people assume that adoption is the best solution for that case, but don't realize that everyone can be good and caring parents, especially when you're not their "real kids".

toxicraider
18-02-09, 22:27
Sorry, but can you re-word your post? Your lack of puncuation is confusing me...

ermm,
fixed :p

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 22:28
you obviously can't handle this topic, judging by your lash out just now.

you're going onto my ignore list.

i wasn't talking about foster parenting, so really, you just attacked me for no particular reason. what on earth did i do to you?

I never said you were talking about foster care. :confused: I made a comment about foster care on one of your adoption comments. Not all kids are adopted right away. You're acting like adoption is an easy situation that's going to put kids in wonderful homes every time. That's not true.

Ignore list? :rolleyes: I can't take you seriously then.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 22:29
Exactly.

Some people assume that adoption is the best solution for that case, but don't realize that everyone can be good and caring parents, especially when you're not their "real kids".

then why are those people even adopting?

that stuff and those people are usually weeded out.

amiro1989
18-02-09, 22:34
then why are those people even adopting?

that stuff and those people are usually weeded out.

Obviously, it's a mystery. I'm not a professional in that domain.

But I guess, that they're adopting because they had plans, but when it doesn't turn out the way they wanted it to be, that's when problem starts showing between the adoptive parents and their adopted child...

I do feel sometimes that there might be a lack of connection between them. Still, that's not always true, because some adoptive parents does amazingly well, with adopted kids. There's just some exceptions, like always.

Larson_1988
18-02-09, 22:34
I don't give a **** what you were talking about. Not all kids are adopted into nice families, like you're acting. My grandmother went into foster care as a newborn, and later ADOPTED. She was treated like a piece of trash for 15 years of her life. Then, she was on the streets. Not all adopted kids have good lives. :mad:

First of all, i'm truly sorry for what your grandmother went through.

But i know someone who got adopted as newborn because of drug abuse/alcoholism from the biological mother and if she weren't adopted away she would have ended up like her other non-adopted away siblings, drug abusers to the maximum.

And now she's living a happy life.

My point is, sometimes adoption is desperately needed.

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 22:35
First of all, i'm truly sorry for what your grandmother went through.

But i know someone who got adopted as newborn because of drug abuse/alcoholism from the biological mother and if she weren't adopted away she would have ended up like her other non-adopted away siblings, drug abusers to the maximum.

And now she's living a happy life.

My point is, sometimes adoption is desperately needed.

I understand that. I was branching off of abortion. I'm pro-choice, and would never put the gamble of adoption in front of that...

violentblossom
18-02-09, 22:39
I never said you were talking about foster care. :confused: I made a comment about foster care on one of your adoption comments. Not all kids are adopted right away. You're acting like adoption is an easy situation that's going to put kids in wonderful homes every time. That's not true.

Ignore list? :rolleyes: I can't take you seriously then.

No, because you said you didn't care WHAT i'd been talking about (see below).

I'm sorry about your grandmother, but i have nothing to do with that and it was fully wrong for you to take it out on me.. and picking on my spelling? Come on, we can't be adults about this? I'm opting for an ignore list add because this fighting is stupid.

Just because my opinion differs from your's does not mean its okay to be so rude about it.

You must know that adoption is not is not an evil thing.


I don't give a **** what you were talking about. Not all kids are adopted into nice families, like you're acting. My grandmother went into foster care as a newborn, and later ADOPTED. She was treated like a piece of trash for 15 years of her life. Then, she was on the streets. Not all adopted kids have good lives. :mad:

By the way, you spelled Assassin wrong. ;)

voltz
18-02-09, 22:41
But it is still not the same as living with the real parents.



Make yourself clear. What IS the top priority in your opinion?

Certainly not the kid, extra baggage is extra baggage. If the parent has to do everything possible just to survive, trust me when I say "she will".

Now if you'll all excuse me, I'm stepping outside for a few while I allow you all to argue among yourselves.

AmericanAssassin
18-02-09, 22:42
No, because you said you didn't care WHAT i'd been talking about (see below).

I'm sorry about your grandmother, but i have nothing to do with that and it was fully wrong for you to take it out on me.. and picking on my spelling? Come on, we can't be adults about this? I'm opting for an ignore list add because this fighting is stupid.

Just because my opinion differs from your's does not mean its okay to be so rude about it.

You must know that adoption is not is not an evil thing.

Adoption is a gamble. That's the point that I'm trying to get across. I apologize if I offended you. It just bothers me when people act as if adoption is a sure thing every time. It's not always good...

Neteru
18-02-09, 22:42
I'll give one general warning to cut out the attitude. Any more will not simply result in the thread's closure.

Pan
18-02-09, 22:43
Deary me - this is going to end in tears!

Personally I believe that abortion is up to the parents, the technology is there, take it or leave it - only you have to deal with the consequences.

Larson_1988
18-02-09, 22:52
Adoption is a gamble. That's the point that I'm trying to get across. I apologize if I offended you. It just bothers me when people act as if adoption is a sure thing every time. It's not always good...

It's a gamble yes, but do you know how strict they are when it comes to adoptions? They don't adopt kids to the first and best they can find any longer.

Lemmie
18-02-09, 23:03
As some people both on this forum and elsewhere have said, there shouldn't be argument over whether abortion is moral or not. Clearly it's not a good choice, whatever your standpoint. No one aborts a child blithely.

The pro-life and pro-choice camps should come together to target the causes of abortion, rather than arguing over how it should be used.

Kittypower
18-02-09, 23:21
North and south dakota are somewhat conservative.

Pan
18-02-09, 23:22
No **** sherlock!

Kittypower
18-02-09, 23:24
No **** sherlock!

good thing i live in the northeast.

Paddy
18-02-09, 23:28
As some people both on this forum and elsewhere have said, there shouldn't be argument over whether abortion is moral or not. Clearly it's not a good choice, whatever your standpoint. No one aborts a child blithely.

The pro-life and pro-choice camps should come together to target the causes of abortion, rather than arguing over how it should be used.

Thats debatable.

Pan
18-02-09, 23:29
good thing i live in the northeast.

Haha yeah, probably is, I always find it strange how, in America, where the states are almost the size of countries and practically self-governing, compared to the small counties of Britain, each state has such strong political views etc that it really affects the people in them, in England certain parties win over the counties but generally no one gives a toss and nothing huge changes.

Hermina94
18-02-09, 23:30
Im all against abortion.Its cruel

Mad Tony
18-02-09, 23:30
Thats debatable.Why? Killing an unborn fetus is never a good choice. Whether it's sometimes the right choice is what people are debating about.

Paddy
18-02-09, 23:31
Why? Killing an unborn fetus is never a good choice. Whether it's sometimes the right choice is what people are debating about.

Actually youre right, I thought he meant something else, I take that back. Even though some people say theyre against it without explaining why, no logic involved in some of the arguments.

Joely-Moley
18-02-09, 23:31
Someone recently said that we needed an Abortion discussion

Guilty. :p

I don’t have a solid opinion on abortion.

I can see it from both sides. Though I really don’t think a man (or a woman) should be able to tell a woman what she can and can’t do with her body. That seems wrong to me.
Plus making abortion illigal wouldn't work, people would still get them regardless, but more 'back alley' ones and that could put thier saftey at risk.

I agree though that 20+ weeks is far too much. I think the cutoff should be lowered.

Hermina94
18-02-09, 23:34
Why? Killing an unborn fetus is never a good choice. Whether it's sometimes the right choice is what people are debating about.
I agree with that.Oh and that picture before with the guy kicking the woman is outrageous

Pan
18-02-09, 23:34
I really can't make my mind up on this.

Kittypower
18-02-09, 23:34
Haha yeah, probably is, I always find it strange how, in America, where the states are almost the size of countries and practically self-governing, compared to the small counties of Britain, each state has such strong political views etc that it really affects the people in them, in England certain parties win over the counties but generally no one gives a toss and nothing huge changes.

The most populated states tend to be the liberalist minus texas of course.

jjbennett
18-02-09, 23:44
Coming from studying ethics quite thoroughly through my course at Uni and from old 6th form debates it strikes me this issue will NEVER be solved.

violentblossom
18-02-09, 23:55
Coming from studying ethics quite thoroughly through my course at Uni and from old 6th form debates it strikes me this issue will NEVER be solved.

i'm sure you're correct.

MattTR
19-02-09, 00:02
That's a good thing, people need to learn from their mistakes, and while a new baby is definitely not a mistake, an abortion is.

violentblossom
19-02-09, 00:05
That's a good thing, people need to learn from their mistakes, and while a new baby is definitely not a mistake, an abortion is.

agreed.

madderakka
19-02-09, 00:06
This is so wrong. Whatever your stance on abortion, what about the mother? If they declare a week old fetus the same as a person, what about ectopic pregnancies? If they aren't removed, the mother dies. There is no alternative.

Paddy
19-02-09, 00:06
That's a good thing, people need to learn from their mistakes, and while a new baby is definitely not a mistake, an abortion is.

Again it depends on the situation
This is so wrong. Whatever your stance on abortion, what about the mother? If they declare a week old fetus the same as a person, what about ectopic pregnancies? If they aren't removed, the mother dies. There is no alternative.
Another well made post, there are reasons like that that call for an abortion, may not be good but has to be done sometimes if it means saving the mothers life. Exact reason why mothers come first.

Quasimodo
19-02-09, 00:07
This is so wrong. Whatever your stance on abortion, what about the mother? If they declare a week old fetus the same as a person, what about ectopic pregnancies? If they aren't removed, the mother dies. There is no alternative.

Good point.

MattTR
19-02-09, 00:11
Again it depends on the situation.

Whether it's forced or not, it's still a life, and it still deserves to live, no one said you have to keep it, as much as I have heard of sad cases if this situation happening, it's really saddening to kill a baby-fetus which has a whole life ahead of it. :(

Paddy
19-02-09, 00:12
Whether it's forced or not, it's still a life, and it still deserves to live, no one said you have to keep it, as much as I have heard of sad cases if this situation happening, it's really saddening to kill a baby-fetus which has a whole life ahead of it. :(

It would be even worse having a kid that was conceived by rape.
No person should have to go through that just because abortions seem morally wrong which I dont necessarily think it is, I only disagree with them if theyre late or multiple.

interstellardave
19-02-09, 01:02
This topic is wrong and misleading... ND didn't outlaw abortion... the bill passed the state house of representatives. It's not law yet. It still will have to pass the senate and be signed by the governor. And it will face legal challenges even if all that happens.

No need for anyone to get their panties in a bunch yet--although it's far too late for that, I see...

Thorir
19-02-09, 01:25
Ban unsafe sex and stupidity instead.
Abortion is a human right in civilized countries.

However, there are pills that can be taken before an abortion is neccesary.
Non prescribed stuff you can buy at the pharmacy along with your vitamin C.
A lot of girls have them just in case. With their painkillers and cough medicine.
Goes by the unofficial name "regret pill".

Mad Tony
19-02-09, 01:35
Ban unsafe sex and stupidity instead.
Abortion is a human right in civilized countries.

However, there are pills that can be taken before an abortion is neccesary.
Non prescribed stuff you can buy at the pharmacy along with your vitamin C.
A lot of girls have them just in case. With their painkillers and cough medicine.
Goes by the unofficial name "regret pill".What about the human rights of the unborn child?

Angelus
19-02-09, 01:37
What about the human rights of the unborn child?

It's unborn... it doesn't have any rights.

Super Badnik
19-02-09, 01:38
I don't think abortion is a black and white subject. Sometimes the mother maybe at risk of dying or have been raped.

Personally i would avoid abortion if i could as nobody can really say when life begins. Catholics say as sson as the sperm and egg meet, others think that it shouldn't be treated as a life until it is born (born as in coming out of the mother) and some think it most likely happens sometime during the pregnancy.

Mad Tony
19-02-09, 01:41
It's unborn... it doesn't have any rights.But it's still a human life. Doesn't matter whether it's unborn or not. I'm talking about just a fertilized egg here, I'm talking about an actual baby that's been in its mothers womb for months.

Angelus
19-02-09, 01:50
But it's still a human life. Doesn't matter whether it's unborn or not. I'm talking about just a fertilized egg here, I'm talking about an actual baby that's been in its mothers womb for months.

I know that, but it's ultimately up to the Mother. The baby can't speak for itself, so the Mother has to. She is the one who decides what to do.

Paddy
19-02-09, 02:03
What about the human rights of the unborn child?

What?? Its unborn, its upto the mother to decide what happens.

interstellardave
19-02-09, 02:11
I know that, but it's ultimately up to the Mother. The baby can't speak for itself, so the Mother has to. She is the one who decides what to do.

A baby can't speak for itself for years after birth, either, so that can't be a basis for decision...

Angelus
19-02-09, 02:14
A baby can't speak for itself for years after birth, either, so that can't be a basis for decision...

Again, the Mother would decide for it. A child's Mother (usually) knows what is best for it. :)

Rai
19-02-09, 02:19
I think a woman should be given the right to decide whether to have an abortion or not. Banning abortion is taking away the human rights of the woman involved. Although much should be taken into consideration. Age (and/or maturity) of the mother, rape, the stage in development of the embryo/foetus/baby are a few to think about. At what point in the pregnancy does a embryo become a baby, a life worth saving? This guide (http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-fetal-development-index) may be of help as a medical reference for anyone who may be a little confused.

It is a difficult choice for any woman to have to make. I don't think having a medical procedure to terminate the pregnancy at very early stages can be considered murder, imo. But abortion should not be taken as an easy way out. It is not a form of contraception. But there are circumstances when a girl/woman may have been in denial about her situation or may not even know they could be pregnant until the pregnancy is quite advanced. There could be other emotional or medical reasons behind the decision. In certain circumstances, it isn't fair to judge a woman's decision. Who decides who's life is more important; the baby's or the mothers?

There are alternatives, if it is practical, like the morning after pill or even adoption. But the emotional state and welfare of the mother should also be considered. An embryo or early foetus is an entirely different thing to a fully developed baby with awareness and physical feeling. In the early stages of pregnancy, it should be the mother's choice. After the foetus is fully formed (about 16 weeks as a guide), then the rights of the unborn baby should also be considered as well as the mothers.

Mad Tony
19-02-09, 02:25
Again, the Mother would decide for it. A child's Mother (usually) knows what is best for it. :)How can a mother deem what's best for a child she's never physically met? I just don't see how aborting a baby at the last minute can be acceptable just because "the mother thinks that's the best thing to do".

Angelus
19-02-09, 02:29
How can a mother deem what's best for a child she's never physically met? I just don't see how aborting a baby at the last minute can be acceptable just because "the mother thinks that's the best thing to do".

What if the child was in danger?

Paddy
19-02-09, 02:29
How can a mother deem what's best for a child she's never physically met? I just don't see how aborting a baby at the last minute can be acceptable just because "the mother thinks that's the best thing to do".

Whilst I agree with last minute decisions being a bit drastic, she does know whats best because she carries it, she has physically met the child because its inside her.

Squibbly
19-02-09, 03:00
This is a touchy subject.

I'm entirely against abortion if someone just goes and gets pregnant. If they don't want to deal with the consequences, they should not be having unsafe sex to begin with. But, of course, sometimes things happen, I understand that. If they do not want the responsibility of raising a child or do not think they can, adoption is the best choice - NOT abortion. No one has the right to terminate a human life just because they don't want to deal with it.

As for the rape part, then I am fine with abortion. Imagine having to live with that for 9 months? A constant reminder of what happened to you? Rape is one of the most horrible, traumatizing things that can happen to someone, and it destroys the victims' lives. I think they've been through enough at that point and should not have to have the product of the rape growing inside of them. It's still a life, I know, but in those circumstances, I understand.

Feather Duster
19-02-09, 04:13
This is a touchy subject.

I'm entirely against abortion if someone just goes and gets pregnant. If they don't want to deal with the consequences, they should not be having unsafe sex to begin with. But, of course, sometimes things happen, I understand that. If they do not want the responsibility of raising a child or do not think they can, adoption is the best choice - NOT abortion. No one has the right to terminate a human life just because they don't want to deal with it.

As for the rape part, then I am fine with abortion. Imagine having to live with that for 9 months? A constant reminder of what happened to you? Rape is one of the most horrible, traumatizing things that can happen to someone, and it destroys the victims' lives. I think they've been through enough at that point and should not have to have the product of the rape growing inside of them. It's still a life, I know, but in those circumstances, I understand.

:tmb:

Ward Dragon
19-02-09, 05:47
My general feeling on abortion is that I don't think I could ever get one myself (the doubt would kill me, wondering what could have been if the baby had lived). However, I think that other women should have the choice of abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, although I would hope that they'd carefully consider the decision and be sure of it. Once the baby is more developed, say around 16-20 weeks, then I think abortion is wrong and shouldn't be allowed.

If the mother's life is in danger and the doctor has to sacrifice the baby to save her, I do not consider that to be abortion as the intent was not to kill the baby but rather to save the mother's life. Obviously that option should be open whenever the mother's life is in danger regardless of how far along the pregnancy is, although the doctor should do everything possible to save the baby too.

The most populated states tend to be the liberalist minus texas of course.

I think it would be more accurate to say that cities tend to be liberal and rural areas tend to be conservative :)

LaraCroftRox
19-02-09, 06:13
After reading through this entire thread I'm pretty much on the fence. The only thing I'm sure on is that banning it in ND was a bad idea IMO. It's taking away some one's free will. And there might be certain cirumstances such as rape etc.

Draco
19-02-09, 06:33
Abortion never has to be necessary.

madderakka
19-02-09, 07:05
Why do you think that Draco?

What about during an ectopic pregnancy where if the fetus isn't aborted, the mother will die. There is no way that the pregnancy can be brought to term and the mother/fetus live.

What about a 12 year old who is raped? A mother with a heart or other health condition that will kill her if she tries to bring a pregnancy to term?

A pregnancy, however natural, is incredibly stressful on a woman's body and I don't think it is right to force someone to undergo that.

I wish that abortions weren't used so often as a means of birth control, but I would never take the decision away from the woman.

Olabelle
19-02-09, 07:32
This is a topic that my mother and I have almost come to blows about. Of course, she's the type that doesn't consider it a baby until it's born. I didn't take too well to having my mother sit there and tell me I wasn't a human to her until I was out of her.

As others have already stated concerning rape, ectopic pregnancies, and the health of the mother and/or baby, I can atleast agree that an abortion in those circumstances would be alright to a degree. However, it's not a form of birth control, and shouldn't be allowed in the cases of 'Oops! I forgot a condom and don't feel like taking responsibility for my actions!'.

However, outright banning abortion is going to result in lots of girls either having to go out of the state to get one, or end up using dangerous alternatives to get it done.

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 07:35
Murdering and innocent life is wrong. Sugar coat it and pretty it up all you want, but no matter how you put it, it's grotesque. I could say a lot about the subject, but there really is no need. The morality of it all is so blatantly obvious, I can't fathom how something so apparent could actually go over one's head.

madderakka
19-02-09, 07:42
And you can try to make it black and white all you want, but it's not. If the morality was so obvious, there would be no need for debate.

Some feel that the fetus' life is sacred and others feel that the mothers is more so because they are an actual quantifiable human being. Most fall somewhere in between.

Punaxe
19-02-09, 07:43
The main question for most people is whether or not it is a life.

Merriam-Webster:
"the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body"
"an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction"
(among others)

Up to a certain point, a foetus does not fit the definition.

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 07:45
I don't have to make any effort to make something appear black and white when it already is.

The subject speaks for itself. Simply stated, killing an innocent baby is wrong. That's all I have to say.

On the other hand, those who are "pro life" have to better explain their reasoning in order to justify it. There truly is no other way to make it sound even halfway humane without adding some sugar to the mix.

madderakka
19-02-09, 07:51
How do ectopic pregnancies fit into your black and white definition Mel?

Tidus
19-02-09, 07:53
Might as well jump in while the water's hot...:D

First of all, I don't believe men have any right to speak out against abortion. It seems at first to be a double edged sword, but us guys can't get pregnant. We don't know and can't know what it's like to get raped and impregnated. Therefore for a male (who, by default of society, usually has the upper hand anyways) shouldnt go about telling a woman what to do with her body. A 13 year old girl gets raped and by law she has to carry it through? The state has taken all agency away from her and is therefore policing her body. You absolutely cannot get around the fact that to ban abortion is to ban the choice of the woman, whether you agree with the choice or not. Had abortions been legal back in the early 20th century, my great grandmother would not have had to go to a black market physician under such circumstances, and she wouldnt have died as early as she did. If it had been legal and not a social stigma back before Roe vs. Wade, my college professor's best friend wouldnt have died from a self induced abortion after...you guessed it.

Now I don't believe abortion should be used as birth control, that does to an extent breed irresponsibility but on the other hand if the 'pro-life' people are so concerned with responsibility logic dictates they would lobby for sex education in schools. The more education our youth have, the less likely they'll have unprotected sex. There's no getting around the fact that many teens have sex. To think otherwise is completely deleusional. If we can't stop it, we can at least provide education to reduce the rates of unwanted pregnancies.

As to the religious perspective: Religion has no place in our government, and our government has no place in religion. Therefore that perspective is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If we insitute laws for religious purposes, well then we're nothing but a theocracy. And those always turn out so lovely.

And finally, to simply state my opinion on the matter, I am Pro-life and Pro-choice. The two are not a dichotomy; for many people they work well together. I have plenty to say on the matter, but I feel I've said enough; plus I have a paper I should be writing :o

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 08:11
How do ectopic pregnancies fit into your black and white definition Mel?

Killing one innocent life to save another. The right answer to that is pretty clear.

Even so, I will give credit that I can at least see one's intentions in such a case. However, abortion is not limited to ectopic pregnancies, but is legally used for various other reasons as well. Which is why I don't understand why pro lifers bring it up. Perhaps it's because it's the only thing remotely related to a leg they have to stand on.

madderakka
19-02-09, 08:14
But if you don't take the fetus from the fallopian tube, the mother and fetus dies. End of discussion. There is no way to bring an ectopic pregnancy to term at all. You would let a woman bleed out and die in excruciating pain for no reason?

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 08:23
Such pregnancies are not guaranteed death if the baby is killed. It brings the percentage up, but does not by any means rule out all hope.

Some women with ectopic pregnancies choose not to kill their babies. While there are many that die with their child because of complications, there are still living testimonies out there as well.

Plain and simple, it's not right to take an innocent life to save another. Killing an innocent human being with full intent is murder, there's no other way around it.

madderakka
19-02-09, 08:32
So based on about a 5% success rate, you would sentence the mother to death. You are trading the mother's life for the fetus' slim chance. How does that make you any better than someone who has an abortion? You're killing one to save the other.

I was lax in my terminology earlier. What I should have said was a tubal pregnancy. So how do you justify not performing an abortion in those circumstances?

Quasimodo
19-02-09, 08:35
So based on about a 5% success rate, you would sentence the mother to death. You are trading the mother's life for the fetus' slim chance. How does that make you any better than someone who has an abortion? You're killing one to save the other.

I was lax in my terminology earlier. What I should have said was a tubal pregnancy. So how do you justify not performing an abortion in those circumstances?

And what if the mother has other children? Should they be deprived of their mother?

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 08:49
Like I said, killing an innocent life with full intent is murder.

Simply stated, it is my belief that murder is wrong.

Again, it's a black and white thing. Sugar won't change that fact, it just makes it more appealing.

And what if the mother has other children? Should they be deprived of their mother?

I would hope not, but I don't think deliberately murdering their sibling would make the situation any better, to be honest.

Personally, I'd rather my mother die fighting for the life of my unborn sibling than live as a murderer. At least there is honor associated to he prior.

madderakka
19-02-09, 08:56
But the mother and fetus will 100% die. There is absolutely no chance at all for either to live. How can any rational person not grant an abortion in that case? Are you going to go tell women "I'm sorry, but you're going to die now because I feel that abortion is wrong no matter what". Are you going to hold their hand while they die and explain to their families that they are now dead because abortion is wrong even when not giving one kills both the mother and the fetus?

That to me is murder. Having the tools and knowledge to save someone and refusing to do it. You are killing someone just as surely as stabbing them.

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 09:00
But the mother and fetus will 100% die.

Ectopic pregnancies are not 100% certain. You're putting me in a hypothetical situation in attempt to prove a point.

If you were trapped in an enclosed hallway with a bomb between you and an 8 year old kid who was tied up, and your only options were to leave ithe bomb in the middle to kill the both of you, or throw it on the child to save yourself, would you find the second option to be anything less than murder?

madderakka
19-02-09, 09:03
Tubal pregnancies are 100% certain.

Melonie Tomb Raider
19-02-09, 09:12
One thing that is 100% is that murder is never right.

Moreover, last I checked, this was an abortion thread, not an Etopic Pregnancy thread. As I previously mentioned, I could understand abortion being allowed for said complication alone (though I still can't say I support it); however, a big factor is that this is by far not the only case for abortions.

Again, as forementioned, it's the only thing remotely related to a leg you have to stand on, which is why I don't see you backing up abortion as a whole, just one small piece of it, rather.

The topic has simply been diverted in order to prevent everyone from seeing the obvious flaws that stand out like a sore thumb.

madderakka
19-02-09, 09:17
So instead of answering the question, you're falling back on rhetoric? Instead of aborting the fetus, you are now taking 2 lives. By your inaction, you are killing the mother. That is murder. And as you say, murder is never right.

Quasimodo
19-02-09, 09:18
Personally, I'd rather my mother die fighting for the life of my unborn sibling than live as a murderer. At least there is honor associated to he prior.
In that case, I know at least one murderer on this forum, and another in my home.

madderakka
19-02-09, 09:30
I'll answer again down here, since you completely edited your post after my earlier reply. I didn't divert the topic. You said that abortions were murder and always wrong. I just pointed out that you don't feel that way since you can allow for tubal pregnancies.

Ectopic pregnancy is not the only leg to stand on, our debate evolved in that direction. I also believe abortion is justified in rape, in cases of incest, for other medical conditions, etc. And I believe on keeping it legal because I don't think it's right to force someone to go through a pregnancy when they don't want it. As I said before, I wish it weren't used so often for birth control, but I believe it should be left up to the woman. Unless someone is going to pay to raise the child, make up the woman's defecit in pay for time she misses caring for the child and pay for surgery to put her body back in the condition it was in before she became pregnant, they really can't ask her to keep it.

*edit Can you please stop going back and editing your posts after people have replied? I can't keep going back several pages to see what you've edited and answer those issues as well.

And I'd rather have my mother alive with me than dead along with a sibling that was never born anyway. Honor can't hug you.

disneyprincess20
19-02-09, 09:31
Time to throw the cat amongst the pigeons...

I'm of the opinion that it's my body, therefore my choice. The only other person who has the right to suggest to me what I should do with the growth in my body (Like Punaxe said, it should be when the foetus can survive on it's own out side the womb. Until then it's needs my body, and it's therefore my choice) is the father. If he's not around, then that's his problem.

In the Netherlands the limit is at 24 weeks, which because of a safety margin used by doctors, usually ends up being around 21 weeks. The basis for putting the limit at 24, is that after that time, it becomes possible for the foetus to survive and fully develop outside of the mother's womb.

I think abortion should be available to those who want it, who have made a choice by learning from impartial sources, and that they shouldn't be judged or stigmatized for making decisions about what's best for them in their own life. If a girl is raped or her pregnancy is life-threatening, then she should make the decision, with the help of impartial medical advice.

A friend of mine had an abortion. She had been with her partner for a long time, and the pregnancy was merely an accident. She made the decision to have it terminated, becasue she knew she was in no state (emotionally, physically, or financially) to care for the baby. I've never judged her for this because she did what was right for her, with her boyfriend's input.

What really upsets me is the stigmatisation people who have had abortions face from certain groups. They've made their decision, and I can only assume they made it having thought clearly and logically about the situation. I don't think people should be judged for a decision that they thought was right at the time they made it. It's their life, their choice, and I think it should be a private thing for her and the father (if he's around). I think the proper medical facilities should be in place, and that people should be allowed to make the deicison themselves.

In case you hadn't figured it out yet, I'm incredibly pro-choice.

madderakka
19-02-09, 10:17
In that case, I know at least one murderer on this forum, and another in my home.
:hug:

interstellardave
19-02-09, 11:54
A baby can't speak for itself for years after birth, either, so that can't be a basis for decision...

Again, the Mother would decide for it. A child's Mother (usually) knows what is best for it. :)

Hmmm... so by the logic of your own words--not mine--a mother could and should have the right to have her baby "aborted" even after it is born, then? The born baby cannot speak for itself; is dependant on the mother, may grow up in poverty; etc. All the common arguments for abortion apply... if abortion is okay in the womb why not out of it?

Also, in my observation, it's rarely about what's best for the child--because at least a fighting chance for life would always be best for the child--it's what's best for the mother that's usually the justification, be it a better chance for the mother to live (in extreme circumstances) or they just don't want to be inconvenienced with a baby (more common, I believe, than anyone wants to openly admit).

violentblossom
19-02-09, 13:23
This topic is wrong and misleading... ND didn't outlaw abortion... the bill passed the state house of representatives. It's not law yet. It still will have to pass the senate and be signed by the governor. And it will face legal challenges even if all that happens.

No need for anyone to get their panties in a bunch yet--although it's far too late for that, I see...

that was the title i put up because that's basicaly what the title was when i found the story link.

sorry to mislead anyone.

Joely-Moley
19-02-09, 16:55
Might as well jump in while the water's hot...:D

First of all, I don't believe men have any right to speak out against abortion. It seems at first to be a double edged sword, but us guys can't get pregnant. We don't know and can't know what it's like to get raped and impregnated. Therefore for a male (who, by default of society, usually has the upper hand anyways) shouldnt go about telling a woman what to do with her body. A 13 year old girl gets raped and by law she has to carry it through? The state has taken all agency away from her and is therefore policing her body. You absolutely cannot get around the fact that to ban abortion is to ban the choice of the woman, whether you agree with the choice or not.


I agree with all of this. You said what I tried to say a lot better.

Anne Boleyn
19-02-09, 18:25
In cases of rape, I am utterly in favour of abortion. However, I do NOT condone abortion as a lifestyle choice. I know a girl - a friend from school - who had, by 18 had 2 abortions - the results of two of many one-night stands with different boys. She never told the fathers (she never even saw them again) and I confess to being utterly disgusted with people who consider it perfectly all right to sleep around and simply abort the results of their actions.

Rai
19-02-09, 18:54
The subject speaks for itself. Simply stated, killing an innocent baby is wrong. That's all I have to say.



I am curious, when do you consider a life begins? At conception or later when a foetus can definitely be described as a baby, say from about 16 weeks into the pregnancy?

I'm not trying to stir things, just want to know. Would you condone an abortion if the pregnancy was say in the 5th week (where the procedure is to take a pill I think)?

I can't help wandering also when you say that taking away one person's life to save another is murder, doesn't it work the other way around? If you are saving a baby knowing that doing so will kill the mother, can't that also be seen as murder (not by the baby obviously)? If a baby, in growing up and asks 'what happened to my mum' and s/he hears that she died giving birth, I wonder how that would effect someone?

I am all for trying to save both lives where possible. I understand where you are coming from when the baby is fully grown (say 22 weeks), and the choice is still available for the woman to have an abortion, but surely an ectopic pregnancy would be caught a lot earlier than that. I still think it should be the mother's choice ultimately. But given the choice between a baby that would survive if born, then most woman would choose the baby's life. But then, if an ectopic pregnancy is caught early enough labour can be induced early to lesson the risk to mother and baby, so abortion fails to be even a consideration.

scion05
19-02-09, 20:33
Personally I'm all for abortion, but I'm not in the mood for arguing my case. :p

God Horus
19-02-09, 20:35
In cases of rape, I am utterly in favour of abortion. However, I do NOT condone abortion as a lifestyle choice. I know a girl - a friend from school - who had, by 18 had 2 abortions - the results of two of many one-night stands with different boys. She never told the fathers (she never even saw them again) and I confess to being utterly disgusted with people who consider it perfectly all right to sleep around and simply abort the results of their actions.

I totally agree with you, I normally say that I am not against abortion, but it's depending on the situation. If it was something serious like you were raped (I've met a girl who was drugged and raped at a party), then an abortion might be acceptable. But if your just some crazy teen who goes around having sex and getting pregnant, an abortion is not the easy way out.

Punaxe
19-02-09, 20:35
I am curious, when do you consider a life begins? At conception or later when a foetus can definitely be described as a baby, say from about 16 weeks into the pregnancy?

I'm not trying to stir things, just want to know. Would you condone an abortion if the pregnancy was say in the 5th week (where the procedure is to take a pill I think)?
(...)

Some possible views I stated earlier:

In the Netherlands the limit is at 24 weeks, which because of a safety margin used by doctors, usually ends up being around 21 weeks. The basis for putting the limit at 24, is that after that time, it becomes possible for the foetus to survive and fully develop outside of the mother's womb.
Personally however I think the line should be drawn at the point that the nervous system becomes properly developed. This is around the same time, I believe 26 weeks.

The main question for most people is whether or not it is a life.

Merriam-Webster:
"the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body"
"an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction"
(among others)

Up to a certain point, a foetus does not fit the definition.

Drone
19-02-09, 20:39
if there were abortions in ancient times Earth population wouldn't be like this now.

Hipsy_Gypsy
19-02-09, 20:39
Just another one of those threads that will end in tears...

Oh well, might as well. I'm all for abortion, once. One mistake, one abortion. From then on it's your problem.

Fair enough. I'm against it really because how I see it is that if you don't want to get pregnant either use a planner, protection or just don't DO it ;). Unless it threatens your very life or if it's an ineviatble death for the baby. There's no point in having him/her dying in your womb, y'know? Some girls don't abort their babies if that's the case though =/. Or am I confusing this with something else :o...? Bleh.
Ew, outside Starbucks there're anti-abortion people who set up a petition thing. Okay fair enough but does it REALLY have to be outside a cafe of some sort? I mean the HUGE photos of aborted babies and models of fetuses are just loverly...

I totally agree with you, I normally say that I am not against abortion, but it's depending on the situation. If it was something serious like you were raped (I've met a girl who was drugged and raped at a party), then an abortion might be acceptable. But if your just some crazy teen who goes around having sex and getting pregnant, an abortion is not the easy way out.

Totally agreed. That really IS disgusting. Some girls don't even abort their babies if it was rape but I could understand why they'd want to. I believe I read years ago that it was "unlikely to get pregnant with rape" but I honestly don't know how that'd work now o.o.

One of my friends is very much so against abortion partly because she was premature and could have BEEN an abortion.

Nannonxyay
19-02-09, 20:49
I'm completely on the fence with this. In some cases I think it's wrong, but in others I think it's right. I mean, the story of the 11-year-old girl is terrible. I wouldn't want to put her through anymore trauma.

Hipsy_Gypsy
19-02-09, 20:57
Hmmm... so by the logic of your own words--not mine--a mother could and should have the right to have her baby "aborted" even after it is born, then? The born baby cannot speak for itself; is dependant on the mother, may grow up in poverty; etc. All the common arguments for abortion apply... if abortion is okay in the womb why not out of it?

I agree there! I'd often wonder that myself - seeing as he/she is her child and she knows what's best for her child, y'know?

I still think it depends on the circumstances thiough.

Might as well jump in while the water's hot...:D

First of all, I don't believe men have any right to speak out against abortion. It seems at first to be a double edged sword, but us guys can't get pregnant. We don't know and can't know what it's like to get raped and impregnated. Therefore for a male (who, by default of society, usually has the upper hand anyways) shouldnt go about telling a woman what to do with her body. A 13 year old girl gets raped and by law she has to carry it through? The state has taken all agency away from her and is therefore policing her body. You absolutely cannot get around the fact that to ban abortion is to ban the choice of the woman, whether you agree with the choice or not. Had abortions been legal back in the early 20th century, my great grandmother would not have had to go to a black market physician under such circumstances, and she wouldnt have died as early as she did. If it had been legal and not a social stigma back before Roe vs. Wade, my college professor's best friend wouldnt have died from a self induced abortion after...you guessed it.

Now I don't believe abortion should be used as birth control, that does to an extent breed irresponsibility but on the other hand if the 'pro-life' people are so concerned with responsibility logic dictates they would lobby for sex education in schools. The more education our youth have, the less likely they'll have unprotected sex. There's no getting around the fact that many teens have sex. To think otherwise is completely deleusional. If we can't stop it, we can at least provide education to reduce the rates of unwanted pregnancies.

As to the religious perspective: Religion has no place in our government, and our government has no place in religion. Therefore that perspective is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If we insitute laws for religious purposes, well then we're nothing but a theocracy. And those always turn out so lovely.

And finally, to simply state my opinion on the matter, I am Pro-life and Pro-choice. The two are not a dichotomy; for many people they work well together. I have plenty to say on the matter, but I feel I've said enough; plus I have a paper I should be writing :o

I love you, dude! Agree with it all :D.

YEAH!! 100th comment, wooooooooo! I'm not a Hobbyist anymore, thank goodness! :D

Ahem. Anyway I think this thread is going pretty well, actually... :)

Tombreaper
20-02-09, 01:48
Abortion at about 20 weeks (limit) should be legal in ALL developed countries.

Draco
20-02-09, 03:44
Why do you think that Draco?

Short question, but it has an incredibly long answer.

What about during an ectopic pregnancy where if the fetus isn't aborted, the mother will die. There is no way that the pregnancy can be brought to term and the mother/fetus live.

A very rare thing, but certainly not something to govern whether abortion should or should not be a normal option.

What about a 12 year old who is raped?

Aborting or not the fetus won't change the fact she was raped. Besides, under my system she wouldn't get pregnant anyway.

A mother with a heart or other health condition that will kill her if she tries to bring a pregnancy to term?

Don't get pregnant?

A pregnancy, however natural, is incredibly stressful on a woman's body and I don't think it is right to force someone to undergo that.

You do know that a woman's body is designed to handle pregnancy...right? An individual person's ability or lack thereof to handle her pregnancy should definitely not be a reason to have an abortion. Besides, she would be just another one who shouldn't be getting pregnant in the first place.

I wish that abortions weren't used so often as a means of birth control, but I would never take the decision away from the woman.

The woman doesn't have to decide she doesn't want to be pregnant if instead she has to decide she wants to be pregnant.

Feather Duster
20-02-09, 04:15
Don't get pregnant?

What about rape? Just asking :)

EmeraldFields
20-02-09, 04:36
I have no say in whether a woman gets an abortion. I don't know the circumstances, so I'm not going to judge her for her actions, whatever they may be.

madderakka
20-02-09, 04:45
A very rare thing, but certainly not something to govern whether abortion should or should not be a normal option.

Not very rare, 2% and the rate has climbed over the last 30 years. It is still the leading cause of maternal death. If abortions are outlawed, we will lose over 100,000 women-and their fetuses- every year.This is just in the US, not the world.




Aborting or not the fetus won't change the fact she was raped. Besides, under my system she wouldn't get pregnant anyway.

No, it won't change the rape. But, it will change the fact that if she kept the pregnancy, she would have to undergo a gynecological exam every month- extremely traumatizing to a rape victim, not to mention painful- for seven months, then biweekly until her 8th and weekly thereafter: That is thirteentimes she will have to let someone else re-traumatize her and that's not counting delivery. She won't have to watch her body distend with her rapistschild, re-living the rape. And she will have to birth a child which hurts more than you can imagine and go through months of recovery- all because some idiot raped her. Why should she have to suffer even more for someone else's brutality?

Don't get pregnant?

Birth control is not 100%



You do know that a woman's body is designed to handle pregnancy...right? An individual person's ability or lack thereof to handle her pregnancy should definitely not be a reason to have an abortion. Besides, she would be just another one who shouldn't be getting pregnant in the first place.

Yes, pregnancy induced hyper-tension, toxemia, gestational diabetes, hyper-emesis, post-partum depression and psychosis, mastitis, placental abruption, toxoplasmosis, choleostasis, PUPPS, seperated pelvis etc... I could go on for awhile. Pregnancy has too many complications to name and that isn't mentioning the regular symptoms of morning sickness, edema, stretch marks, acne etc. And a woman's lack of ability to handle a pregnancy should be a reason for abortion. You're not the one who will suffer the consequences which include death, so how can you decide for them?


The woman doesn't have to decide she doesn't want to be pregnant if instead she has to decide she wants to be pregnant.

Well, considering that biology and birth control don't work that way,it's a pretty invalid argument.

Shauni
20-02-09, 05:41
When I was growing up my mom always taught me that abortion for any reason was wrong. I'm not quite so strongly opinionated, but I think girls should only have an abortion if there are heath problems with the pregnancy (for the baby or the mother), if the girl is too young (12 years-olds just shouldn't be having babies!), seriously financially incapable of supporting the child, or if the girl was raped. Those are my exceptions.

If you got drunk and had sex and got pregnant, I definitely say having an abortion is just one mistake after the other. Some people need to understand there are consequences to their actions. They're now responsible for someone else, and that someone might become an amazing person. I don't know how someone can just "get rid" of a baby. I would imagine the regret would be awful. Young pregnancy is rough, but having a baby is still a beautiful thing. I encourage young mothers to keep their baby, unless for one of the reasons above that I had posted. But that's just my opinion :)

Draco
20-02-09, 05:54
Not very rare, 2% and the rate has climbed over the last 30 years. It is still the leading cause of maternal death. If abortions are outlawed, we will lose over 100,000 women-and their fetuses- every year.

Your statement does not contradict mine.

No, it won't change the rape. But, it will change the fact that if she kept the pregnancy, she would have to undergo a gynecological exam every month- extremely traumatizing to a rape victim, not to mention painful- for seven months, then biweekly until her 8th and weekly thereafter: That is thirteentimes she will have to let someone else re-traumatize her and that's not counting delivery. She won't have to watch her body distend with her rapistschild, re-living the rape. And she will have to birth a child which hurts more than you can imagine and go through months of recovery- all because some idiot raped her. Why should she have to suffer even more for someone else's brutality?

True, but this would not be an issue at all under my plan.

Birth control is not 100%

Sex is.


Yes, pregnancy induced hyper-tension, toxemia, gestational diabetes, hyper-emesis, post-partum depression and psychosis, mastitis, placental abruption, toxoplasmosis, choleostasis, PUPPS, seperated pelvis etc... I could go on for awhile. Pregnancy has too many complications to name and that isn't mentioning the regular symptoms of morning sickness, edema, stretch marks, acne etc. And a woman's lack of ability to handle a pregnancy should be a reason for abortion. You're not the one who will suffer the consequences which include death, so how can you decide for them?

If instead the decision is whether to get pregnant or not rather than abort or not, the fulfillment of justice is achieved.


Well, considering that biology and birth control don't work that way,it's a pretty invalid argument.

Only when you aren't arguing with a full understanding of the opponent's platform.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 05:57
Only when you aren't arguing with a full understanding of the opponent's platform.

How is someone else supposed to know about your enforced sterilization plan unless you tell them? :p

madderakka
20-02-09, 06:09
[/COLOR]

Only when you aren't arguing with a full understanding of the opponent's platform.

It's difficult to have an understanding of what you don't explain. Outline your position or find points to debate.

Women not having sex still doesn't solve rape.

Not having sex isn't a valid option unless you want to go down the lines of The Giver and Equilibrium and chemically castrate everyone.

My ideal plan would be to find a way to implant unwanted embryos in either women who want to get pregnant, but produce no eggs or an artificial womb and adopt the child when ready. But I can't argue that point because it doesn't exist.

acrimony
20-02-09, 08:21
Using words like "baby" and "infant" to describe a fetus is part and parcel of the sugar-coating propaganda that is meant to induce guilt and irrational fear, I'm afraid. Assigning superfluous terms like "innocent" and "life" to bodily fluids is pathetic sensationalism and anyone who invokes such malarkey in a debate should be embarrassed.

The fetus cannot breath, think, walk, walk, communicate or interact in any way on its own. It is completely dependent on its mother for survival. If the mother chooses not to bring the fetus to term, then there is nothing you can do about it. You are utterly powerless. Why bother arguing against it?

A fetus is not a "life" the day of conception, nor at 7 weeks or 14; it is simply a group of cells multiplying and dividing--same as a virus or bacteria.
In fact, the female body regards the fetus as an alien and from the moment of fertilization attempts to abort the perceived attack on the body's immune system.

To see a fetus to fruition (birth) is not a guarantee, if anything it is a unique side-effect of intercourse.

To all the men charging in on their high horses with their thinly veiled religious undertoned-opinions: If you do not bleed from your loins every 28 days, if you do not have a womb and a vagina, if you cannot get pregnant or give birth, please refrain from giving advice on the subject.
You have no grounds on which to make an argument.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 08:27
Using words like "baby" and "infant" to describe a fetus is part and parcel of the sugar-coating propaganda that is meant to induce guilt and irrational fear, I'm afraid.

The term "fetus" applies to later on in the pregnancy where it is clearly identifiable as a baby. Constantly referring to it as a clump of cells is part and parcel of the sugar-coating propaganda that is meant to remove all emotion and guilt, I'm afraid.

It is completely dependent on its mother for survival.

What about later on in the pregnancy where the baby can survive on its own outside of the womb if it is delivered prematurely?

Quasimodo
20-02-09, 08:30
A fetus is not a "life" the day of conception, nor at 7 weeks or 14; it is simply a group of cells multiplying and dividing--same as a virus or bacteria.
In fact, the female body regards the fetus as an alien and from the moment of fertilization attempts to abort the perceived attack on the body's immune system.
I've never heard of this before. Where did you learn this? Though it does remind me of what other women have said about pregnancy feeling like there's an alien inside of you :p

To see a fetus to fruition (birth) is not a guarantee, if anything it is a unique side-effect of intercourse.
Hmm, good point.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 08:33
I've never heard of this before. Where do you learn this? Though it does remind me of what other women have said about pregnancy feeling like there's an alien inside of you :p

The part about viruses is wrong (viruses are not cells and are technically not alive). The part about the mother's body rejecting the fetus can be true if the baby has a different blood type due to inheriting it from the father. The mother's blood reacts to the baby's blood the same way a person would react to a transfusion of the wrong blood type. In cases where this happens, the mother is usually given something to suppress her immune system until the baby is born.

Edit: I found an article about it :)

http://anthro.palomar.edu/blood/Rh_system.htm

acrimony
20-02-09, 08:35
The term "fetus" applies to later on in the pregnancy where it is clearly identifiable as a baby. Constantly referring to it as a clump of cells is part and parcel of the sugar-coating propaganda that is meant to remove all emotion and guilt, I'm afraid.


Neither extreme is favorable, is it?


What about later on in the pregnancy where the baby can survive on its own outside of the womb if it is delivered prematurely?

I don't understand what you mean. Are you referring to a premie? Is the umbilical chord still attached to the placenta in this hypothetical scenario?

Either way, if it is, the fetus/premie is still dependent upon the mother for survival. If not, then there is no way a fetus/premie can survive on its own as it surely cannot feed or fend for itself...

Quasimodo
20-02-09, 08:41
Either way, if it is, the fetus/premie is still dependent upon the mother for survival. If not, then there is no way a fetus/premie can survive on its own as it surely cannot feed or fend for itself...
Neither can babies that spent the full 9mos in the womb. I'm just being a smartass, though. I'm guessing you mean some fetuses/premies can't breathe on their own, like most fully developed newborns can.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 08:41
Neither extreme is favorable, is it?

Exactly :) I already posted a somewhat moderate view a few pages back so I won't bother typing it all again, but I think both extremes are wrong because they fail to take into account certain circumstances which should be considered.

I don't understand what you mean. Are you referring to a premie? Is the umbilical chord still attached to the placenta in this hypothetical scenario?

A baby can be delivered a few months early, the umbilical cord severed, and still survive as a normal baby. If the mother is already that far along in the pregnancy, why not just deliver the baby early instead of kill it and then deliver it? Either way she has to go through the pain of delivery, so may as well let the baby live and give it away if she really doesn't want it.

Either way, if it is, the fetus/premie is still dependent upon the mother for survival. If not, then there is no way a fetus/premie can survive on its own as it surely cannot feed or fend for itself...

By that standard, mothers should be allowed to kill their children until the children are a year or two old. What newborn baby is capable of feeding itself?

acrimony
20-02-09, 08:49
By that standard, mothers should be allowed to kill their children until the children are a year or two old. What newborn baby is capable of feeding itself?

...Right, which was my point...
Not quite sure why you're contesting it.

My point was that the fetus is completely dependent upon the mother for survival, so what she decides to do with/to the fetus is not for anyone else to decide. She can and will do whatever she chooses.
The fetus cannot survive without the mother and therefore has no rights.
It has no "say" in the matter.
It may be an imbalance of power or an unsavory position for the fetus to be in, but it is what it is.
The fetus is at the mercy of the mother.
It cannot survive without her.

edit: Hypothetical scenarios of a hospital situation in which a premie is cared for by a breathing machine/incubator and a feeding tube by doctors (and therefore not the mother) are not what I'm getting at, either.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 08:59
...Right, which was my point...
Not quite sure why you're contesting it.

I'm totally confused right now and probably misinterpreting your post. Did you just say that mothers can kill their children at any point before the children learn to feed themselves? :confused:

acrimony
20-02-09, 09:04
Oy vey.

It's way too late and I'm way too tired to try to salvage this.

I'll just agree to disagree for the moment. :)

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 09:07
Oy vey.

It's way too late and I'm way too tired to try to salvage this.

I'll just agree to disagree for the moment. :)

Okay :) I'm not trying to fight. I'm just trying to figure out what you are actually saying since I'm pretty sure I read it wrong :o

Quasimodo
20-02-09, 09:10
The definition of a living human being can be so subjective(as in, when does a human life begin?). That's why this goes round and round.

acrimony
20-02-09, 09:17
^This is true. It certainly makes things that much more difficult for either "side" of the argument to be convinced or persuaded otherwise because of it. But...like you said in a previous post, your opinion on abortion was once dead-set, and has since changed.

@ Ward Dragon: No harm, no foul. I'm sure I'm just as guilty of misinterpreting otherwise clear and concise posts tonight (make that this morning! :yik:) as it is way, way past my bedtime ;)

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 09:19
The definition of a living human being can be so subjective(as in, when does a human life begin?). That's why this goes round and round.

I think the life question is obvious and has a clear answer (conception as that's when the cells begin their normal life processes). The real question is at what point is the developing baby entitled to human rights? I think it's towards the end of the pregnancy when the nervous system is developed and the baby could survive outside of the womb if it really had to. Some people think it's right from the start, and others think it's not until the baby is already born. All make sense and all have their compromises in terms of balancing the welfare of the mother versus the welfare of the child.

Quasimodo
20-02-09, 09:24
When I had a very absolute/extreme stance on abortion, it meant I had to look at certain women as murderers because I considered abortion to be murder. After that epiphany, it became rather difficult to return to that extreme stance. So now I'm on the fence again.

The real question is at what point is the developing baby entitled to human rights?
That's what I was looking for. Exactly.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 09:31
@ Ward Dragon: No harm, no foul. I'm sure I'm just as guilty of misinterpreting otherwise clear and concise posts tonight (make that this morning! :yik:) as it is way, way past my bedtime ;)

Same here :) I should have gone to bed hours ago but I'm trying to study for a biology exam I have on Saturday.

When I had a very absolute/extreme stance on abortion, it meant I had to look at certain women as murderers because I considered abortion to be murder. After that epiphany, it became rather difficult to return to that extreme stance. So now I'm on the fence again.

The fence isn't a bad place to be. It means that you recognize the rights of both the mother and the baby and you realize how difficult it is to draw the line at which point one's welfare outweighs the other.

I suppose I can draw a generality and say that I don't think abortion is wrong at all during the first few months of pregnancy and I think it is very wrong during the last few months of pregnancy, but in between is a giant gray area and I suppose it depends upon the individual case.

Regardless, I think that it is in everyone's best interests to try to improve education and take other positive measures to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Even if a woman does choose to have an abortion, that's a very difficult decision to make and the procedure could be harmful, so it would be better to prevent the pregnancy in the first place wherever possible.

That's what I was looking for. Exactly.

You're welcome :) I knew what point you were trying to make so I thought I'd clarify the wording in order to prevent an argument over the scientific definition of life.

Draco
20-02-09, 10:46
How is someone else supposed to know about your enforced sterilization plan unless you tell them? :p

Indeed.

It's difficult to have an understanding of what you don't explain. Outline your position or find points to debate.

Abortion in its current state is an abomination. I do not believe it should be legal in any capacity, except a fallopian pregnancy (it is very nearly 100% guaranteed to result in the death of the fetus either way).

My solution makes abortion completely unnecessary in every possible outcome, with the random chance of a fallopian pregnancy as the only exception.

Women not having sex still doesn't solve rape.Rape cases are by far the least common of the 'valid' reasons to abort. But under my plan, rape would not result in a reason to abort anyway.

Not having sex isn't a valid option unless you want to go down the lines of The Giver and Equilibrium and chemically castrate everyone.Castration is barbaric and abstinence is a personal choice.

My ideal plan would be to find a way to implant unwanted embryos in either women who want to get pregnant, but produce no eggs or an artificial womb and adopt the child when ready. But I can't argue that point because it doesn't exist.That seems like a lot of trouble to go through...and it already exists. However most people that want to be pregnant, want to be pregnant 'on their own'.

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 11:07
North Dakota = One Step Back For America

I believe that it should be up to the pregnant woman whether or not she wants to have an abortion. Banning them is not going to solve anything. Instead, pregnant girls are going to try to get rid the zygote/embryo/fetus in other ways. I'd rather these women be safe. ;)

Exactly.

if a girl made the decision to have sex, then HELL YES, she should deal with the consequences.. now, if she can't provide a good home, then she can give the child up for adoption.

having sex, and then saying "Whoops! I made a mistake, but it's okay, i'll just kill the baby and go on with my everyday life" is flat out SELFISH. plenty of couples out there can't have their own children and would love to have one.

also, personality or not, that baby has every friggin' right to live.. youre killing a living, helpless creature, a human BEING, no less.

Omg. Omg. Omg. Women have a right to choose what happens to them before, during and after sex.


That's a good thing, people need to learn from their mistakes, and while a new baby is definitely not a mistake, an abortion is.

I think a 6 000 000 000 population says that a new baby is probably in fact, a mistake.

Time to throw the cat amongst the pigeons...

I'm of the opinion that it's my body, therefore my choice. The only other person who has the right to suggest to me what I should do with the growth in my body (Like Punaxe said, it should be when the foetus can survive on it's own out side the womb. Until then it's needs my body, and it's therefore my choice) is the father. If he's not around, then that's his problem.



I think abortion should be available to those who want it, who have made a choice by learning from impartial sources, and that they shouldn't be judged or stigmatized for making decisions about what's best for them in their own life. If a girl is raped or her pregnancy is life-threatening, then she should make the decision, with the help of impartial medical advice.

A friend of mine had an abortion. She had been with her partner for a long time, and the pregnancy was merely an accident. She made the decision to have it terminated, becasue she knew she was in no state (emotionally, physically, or financially) to care for the baby. I've never judged her for this because she did what was right for her, with her boyfriend's input.

What really upsets me is the stigmatisation people who have had abortions face from certain groups. They've made their decision, and I can only assume they made it having thought clearly and logically about the situation. I don't think people should be judged for a decision that they thought was right at the time they made it. It's their life, their choice, and I think it should be a private thing for her and the father (if he's around). I think the proper medical facilities should be in place, and that people should be allowed to make the deicison themselves.

In case you hadn't figured it out yet, I'm incredibly pro-choice.

This x 10 000 000

Abortion at about 20 weeks (limit) should be legal in ALL developed countries.

It should be legal in ALL countries - not just the developed ones. Just like fresh water, education, food and a stable government.

Using words like "baby" and "infant" to describe a fetus is part and parcel of the sugar-coating propaganda that is meant to induce guilt and irrational fear, I'm afraid. Assigning superfluous terms like "innocent" and "life" to bodily fluids is pathetic sensationalism and anyone who invokes such malarkey in a debate should be embarrassed.

The fetus cannot breath, think, walk, walk, communicate or interact in any way on its own. It is completely dependent on its mother for survival. If the mother chooses not to bring the fetus to term, then there is nothing you can do about it. You are utterly powerless. Why bother arguing against it?

A fetus is not a "life" the day of conception, nor at 7 weeks or 14; it is simply a group of cells multiplying and dividing--same as a virus or bacteria.
In fact, the female body regards the fetus as an alien and from the moment of fertilization attempts to abort the perceived attack on the body's immune system.

To see a fetus to fruition (birth) is not a guarantee, if anything it is a unique side-effect of intercourse.

To all the men charging in on their high horses with their thinly veiled religious undertoned-opinions: If you do not bleed from your loins every 28 days, if you do not have a womb and a vagina, if you cannot get pregnant or give birth, please refrain from giving advice on the subject.
You have no grounds on which to make an argument.

Thank you. x10

Also Draco, I would love to hear your plan on getting rid of rape.

Draco
20-02-09, 11:12
I never claimed to have a plan to get rid of rape...well other than arming women, but that is unrelated to this.

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 11:17
I think I might have totally mis-read what you wrote heh. But, out of curiosity what did you mean by "But under my plan, rape would not result in a reason to abort anyway?"

also, how would arming women stop rape? ( i know its a bit off topic but i am quite curious)

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 11:22
also, how would arming women stop rape? ( i know its a bit off topic but i am quite curious)

So we can shoot the rapists.

Zebra
20-02-09, 11:22
A baby can be delivered a few months early, the umbilical cord severed, and still survive as a normal baby. If the mother is already that far along in the pregnancy, why not just deliver the baby early instead of kill it and then deliver it? Either way she has to go through the pain of delivery, so may as well let the baby live and give it away if she really doesn't want it.


There's no country on earth where abortion after a certain point in the pregnancy is allowed. So therefore there wouldn't be an abortion of a child that could survive outside of the mother's body, anyway.

Mad Tony
20-02-09, 11:23
Some people talk about abortion as if it's some sort of human right. They brand states and countries that have strict abortion laws as "backwards", kind of like how you'd call a country with hardly any gay or minority rights backwards. The difference here is that abortion is essentially the killing of a life, gay or minority rights aren't.

It amazes me that countries or states with really lax abortion laws are promoted as forward thinking societies, despite the fact that lax abortion laws encourage the killing of unborn babies.

I don't agree with the decision made in North Dakota, I don't think abortion should just be universally banned. However, I do think that abortion should only be allowed in extreme circumstances and that every case should be reviewed with time and care. No abortion laws at all are just as bad as completely banning it.

@Zebra: Actually, there have been babies that have been born under the limit prematurely but have still survived outside of the mother's womb.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 11:36
There's no country on earth where abortion after a certain point in the pregnancy is allowed. So therefore there wouldn't be an abortion of a child that could survive outside of the mother's body, anyway.

Partial birth abortion is still an issue in some states in the US. The baby is in the 8th or 9th month of pregnancy, partially delivered, killed, and then fully delivered. In some cases the baby survives this procedure and is then killed despite having technically been born already. This is very rare, but I don't understand why anyone would support it at all (speaking in general). The baby is more than capable of surviving on its own outside the womb and there's not much difference to the mother's body whether the baby is delivered alive or dead. Partial birth abortion keeps getting banned and then the ban gets overturned when certain political groups complain.

Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_birth_abortion#Legal_and_political_situati on_in_the_United_States) (no pictures)

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 11:40
Some people talk about abortion as if it's some sort of human right. They brand states and countries that have strict abortion laws as "backwards", kind of like how you'd call a country with hardly any gay or minority rights backwards. The difference here is that abortion is essentially the killing of a life, gay or minority rights aren't.

It amazes me that countries or states with really lax abortion laws are promoted as forward thinking societies, despite the fact that lax abortion laws encourage the killing of unborn babies.

I don't agree with the decision made in North Dakota, I don't think abortion should just be universally banned. However, I do think that abortion should only be allowed in extreme circumstances and that every case should be reviewed with time and care. No abortion laws at all are just as bad as completely banning it.

@Zebra: Actually, there have been babies that have been born under the limit prematurely but have still survived outside of the mother's womb.


Actually I'm pretty sure that one of the human rights was the right to determine how many children you have and how far apart you have them/whether or not you have them at all.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 11:43
Actually I'm pretty sure that one of the human rights was the right to determine how many children you have and how far apart you have them/whether or not you have them at all.

Even so, I think that decision should be made early on in the pregnancy. Why allow the baby to develop enough that it can feel pain before terminating the pregnancy?

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 11:46
I agree. I'm not a fan of partial birth abortions. I was just pointing that out to Mad Tony.

interstellardave
20-02-09, 11:49
YOU KNOW WHAT GETS ME?

That women ("because it's their body") have the right to get abortions, yet they don't (in the US and some other countries) have the right to sell their body for money... just a thought. And don't say "prostitution is illegal because it's dangerous to the women" because that's exactly one of the reasons abortion was legalized--to make something women were doing on their own anyway, safer!

Ah, United States... land of inexplicable contradictions...

Larapink
20-02-09, 11:55
It really should be your own choice, like it is here. It isn't banned here, but whats more important is knowing to be safe.

The idea of Abortion from my point a view is bad, it's like taking a life away. You don't have to keep the baby, adoption is always an option.

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 11:57
YOU KNOW WHAT GETS ME?

That women ("because it's their body") have the right to get abortions, yet they don't (in the US and some other countries) have the right to sell their body for money... just a thought. And don't say "prostitution is illegal because it's dangerous to the women" because that's exactly one of the reasons abortion was legalized--to make something women were doing on their own anyway, safer!

Ah, United States... land of inexplicable contradictions...

I think prostitution should be legalised too though. If it was a legal and legit industry, where the workers weren't stigmatised and considered "lesser" beings, you'd probably be seeing some good results from that.

calico25
20-02-09, 11:58
I used to be on the fence with the abortion issue...but I am now against it.

Two things put me against that. The first and most obvious would be that my last girlfriend decided on an abortion- which she now regrets and is still emotionally recovering from.

the second is one of my best friends works in the medical field and has performed abortions on women who have cancer and cannot continue treatment while pregnant....her descriptions of the actual abortions and the emotions of the event were enough to sway me.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 11:58
I agree. I'm not a fan of partial birth abortions. I was just pointing that out to Mad Tony.

Ah, cool :) I view partial birth abortion as a separate issue on its own since it's very rare as far as abortions go, and I believe it is so gruesome that the answer should be very clear. I don't think it should factor into the abortion debate at all. Pro-life should not use it as a representative of abortion and Pro-choice shouldn't defend it out of fear that getting rid of it would lead to a total ban on abortion. It needs to be taken completely on its own, banned for being infanticide (not for being abortion), and then forgotten about.

YOU KNOW WHAT GETS ME?

That women ("because it's their body") have the right to get abortions, yet they don't (in the US and some other countries) have the right to sell their body for money... just a thought. And don't say "prostitution is illegal because it's dangerous to the women" because that's exactly one of the reasons abortion was legalized--to make something women were doing on their own anyway, safer!

Ah, United States... land of inexplicable contradictions...

Good point. I'm of the general opinion that nearly everything should be legal but regulated so I would have no objections to the legalization of prostitution, especially if it would lead to better safety and general medical checkups for prostitutes.

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 12:03
Ah, cool :) I view partial birth abortion as a separate issue on its own since it's very rare as far as abortions go, and I believe it is so gruesome that the answer should be very clear. I don't think it should factor into the abortion debate at all. Pro-life should not use it as a representative of abortion and Pro-choice shouldn't defend it out of fear that getting rid of it would lead to a total ban on abortion. It needs to be taken completely on its own, banned for being infanticide (not for being abortion), and then forgotten about.



Good point. I'm of the general opinion that nearly everything should be legal but regulated so I would have no objections to the legalization of prostitution, especially if it would lead to better safety and general medical checkups for prostitutes.


Awesome, I'm glad we can agree :)

Not to mention that it would make sex trafficking a fair bit harder and then ridiculous things like this blatant sexism (http://www.lvrj.com/news/39633407.html) wouldn't be happening.

interstellardave
20-02-09, 12:10
Awesome, I'm glad we can agree :)

Not to mention that it would make sex trafficking a fair bit harder and then ridiculous things like this blatant sexism (http://www.lvrj.com/news/39633407.html) wouldn't be happening.

I think prostitution should be legalised too though. If it was a legal and legit industry, where the workers weren't stigmatised and considered "lesser" beings, you'd probably be seeing some good results from that.

Yep... and sex trafficking into the US prevalant in large part because prostitution is illegal here. It's not really as bad as people think, I suspect, because there are so many women now doing it on their own via the internet. No pimps, no dirty street corners, none of that... I mean, that still exists, of course, but by far the largest segment of the business is now women doing it themselves, in their own homes, or working for escort agencies. That makes it much safer than doing it on street corners or alleyways but still not as safe as it would be if it was legal and all above board. Plus it could be taxed... and the gov't loves to tax! I think they're missing out on millons, or even billions, in taxes.

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 12:15
Yep... and sex trafficking into the US prevalant in large part because prostitution is illegal here. It's not really as bad as people think, I suspect, because there are so many women now doing it on their own via the internet. No pimps, no dirty street corners, none of that... I mean, that still exists, of course, but by far the largest segment of the business is now women doing it themselves, in their own homes, or working for escort agencies. That makes it much safer than doing it on street corners or alleyways but still not as safe as it would be if it was legal and all above board. Plus it could be taxed... and the gov't loves to tax! I think they're missing out on millons, or even billions, in taxes.

Wow, I actually agree with you here. I don't understand why the governments depriving themselves of money like that. Mind you, over here (Australia) you can actually put prostitute on your tax return forms. Just like strippers here can claim back make up, clothes and shoes etc back on tax haha.

Larapink
20-02-09, 12:24
I think a 6 000 000 000 population says that a new baby is probably in fact, a mistake.
I disagree with you, to be alive is great.

It should be legal in ALL countries - not just the developed ones. Just like fresh water, education, food and a stable government.
Again, I disagree. Everyone has thier OWN rights. If they want to have it done, it's thier choice. But to be better educated is what is needed, and to be safe, to avoid such a sitution if you don't want a baby in the first place.

But like I said I don't like the abortion, but I don't like to have that opinion to be forced upon on everyone.

Ward Dragon
20-02-09, 12:24
Awesome, I'm glad we can agree :)

Indeed :)

Not to mention that it would make sex trafficking a fair bit harder and then ridiculous things like this blatant sexism (http://www.lvrj.com/news/39633407.html) wouldn't be happening.

I'm on the fence about that particular story. The article implied that there is a problem with prostitutes stealing and harassing tourists. If that's true then I guess the police should try to stop it, but I don't think the prostitution itself should warrant such a reaction. The article also said that prostitution could be legalized there soon so it might not be an issue a few months from now.

Incidentally, I just thought of a question related to this. If something is legalized, does a person's arrest record then no longer show arrests for the thing that is now legal?

I disagree with you, to be alive is great.


Again, I disagree. Everyone has thier OWN rights. If they want to have it done, it's thier choice. But to be better educated is what is needed, and to be safe, to avoid such a sitution if you don't want a baby in the first place.

But like I said I don't like the abortion, but I don't like to have that opinion to be forced upon on everyone.

I definitely agree with that :tmb: Considering the rate of teen pregnancy, something is obviously wrong with sex education. That needs to be reevaluated and made more effective at convincing people to take reasonable measures to avoid unwanted pregnancy.

disneyprincess20
20-02-09, 12:27
Some people talk about abortion as if it's some sort of human right. They brand states and countries that have strict abortion laws as "backwards", kind of like how you'd call a country with hardly any gay or minority rights backwards. The difference here is that abortion is essentially the killing of a life, gay or minority rights aren't.

It amazes me that countries or states with really lax abortion laws are promoted as forward thinking societies, despite the fact that lax abortion laws encourage the killing of unborn babies.

I don't agree with the decision made in North Dakota, I don't think abortion should just be universally banned. However, I do think that abortion should only be allowed in extreme circumstances and that every case should be reviewed with time and care. No abortion laws at all are just as bad as completely banning it.



I see your point, but the highlighted sentence sort of bothers me: what if the woman in question doesn't have much time before the legal age limit of the foetus for abortion is reached (for example, 24 weeks, because I can't remember what the proper limit is)? If the girl wants to terminate her pregnancy but the process of review takes too long to the point where she is not allowed to terminate is reached, then surely the the reviewing body has imposed the child on the woman in question without her consent. What then? Does she legally have to keep it, even though she has no desire to be pregnant or to have the child? Yes she can give it up for adoption, but the bureaucracy could let women down.

This is why I think the decision to terminate should be made in private with as few people as possible involved (mother, impartial doctor and father if necessary) so it can be made within the correct time frame.

aileenwuornos
20-02-09, 12:35
I disagree with you, to be alive is great.


Again, I disagree. Everyone has thier OWN rights. If they want to have it done, it's thier choice. But to be better educated is what is needed, and to be safe, to avoid such a sitution if you don't want a baby in the first place.

But like I said I don't like the abortion, but I don't like to have that opinion to be forced upon on everyone.

Oh, I think you might have misunderstood my point :)
What I meant was that the option to have, or not have a safe abortion should be available in all countries - regardless of development or not. Yes, education is very important as well. The idea of forced abortion is no better than the idea of not allowing any abortion at all.

Indeed :)



I'm on the fence about that particular story. The article implied that there is a problem with prostitutes stealing and harassing tourists. If that's true then I guess the police should try to stop it, but I don't think the prostitution itself should warrant such a reaction. The article also said that prostitution could be legalized there soon so it might not be an issue a few months from now.

Incidentally, I just thought of a question related to this. If something is legalized, does a person's arrest record then no longer show arrests for the thing that is now legal?
.

You would hope so. My problem with that article was that it failed to mention the other criminals in prostitution - the people who pay for the product in question (sex) and pimps etc. Also that it names these people - and having someone who was a client come and approach you by your real name can be and is very dangerous for a sex industry worker.


This is why I think the decision to terminate should be made in private with as few people as possible involved (mother, impartial doctor and father if necessary) so it can be made within the correct time frame.

This I totally agree with.