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spikejones
03-03-09, 03:18
Here is something that I was pondering the other night after reading the thread about "purpose of life", and I'm not sure if there is any body else who has considered this - or if there is already a theory that describes it.

I know that there is astrology by which people can say "if you were born on X date of X year at X time in X location, then your star chart is XYZ". Many people claim that it is very accurate - while others will claim that they are general statements that can really apply to anyone. I, for one, have studied my star chart and I think that it paints a pretty accurate picture of me - from the hardships I have endured, on down to my relationships. It goes so far as to say that I will not get into a serious relationship until I am in my early 30's. Being 24 and that not having happened yet, this is pretty accurate. I also know that there is numerology which states there is a mathematical expression for physical things, and it has been said that math can be used to solve anything (look at the show Numb3rs for instance).

Now... what I was pondering was the possibility that both aforementioned sciences may be two halves of the same larger equation - whereby there could be a mathematical equation for each and every person, animal, plant, and other objects on this planet that can predict without a degree of uncertainty what their life actions will be, including offspring and when they will be born - and so forth. If we were able to have accurate information for every living person on this planet... you could very well predict when or if there will be an "end time". Granted it would be a massive equation which would take years to accomplish by hand - or a system of super computers with sufficient storage capacity and memory to compute those equations.

However... this opens a can of worms (from what I can see) if someone were to attempt to change the course of the future upon predicting it. by simply changing one event in order to prevent WWIII for instance, you effectively create an alternate time line from what was intended. But then again... perhaps that act of prevention was already accounted for in the equation - but if the equation knows a person is going to prevent something it is predicting -- it starts to hurt my head.

Its probably a thing best left alone though - thoughts?

EmeraldFields
03-03-09, 03:23
I remember in my physical sciences classes when my teacher ranted on about quantum physics and he mentioned a situation like this.

A man decides that he never wanted to be born so he goes back in time to shoot his father. However if he killed his father, then there wouldn't be the son in the future to go back in time to shoot the father. Therefore, it would be impossible for a person to change the past because something would prevent us from accomplishing the task.

If we were able to change the course of history I think it would find a way to counter-act what we wanted to change.

Ikas90
03-03-09, 03:27
I'd best leave it alone. I wouldn't want to know anything about my future. That is just a huge life spoiler.

And I wouldn't go back and change anything either. Butterfly effect. Preventing World War II might prevent you from being born. Like for example; you might have been born because your parents "did it" after watching the WWII news. If WWII didn't happen, there wouldn't have been news about it, and they would've done it at a slightly different time, perhaps even a few seconds off. A few seconds would be enough for a different sperm to reach the egg and not yours.

Not saying it's true in your case; it's just an example. I wouldn't try to change the course of any future event. What happens, is meant to happen.

tranniversary119
03-03-09, 03:28
I think it's best for us not to know our future. I mean imagine knowing your expiration date? That's something you'd NEVER stop thinking about ;)

freeze10108
03-03-09, 03:29
I like to think that we as humans have no pre-determined destiny or path of actions. While I do ponder many things in my head and debate both sides of the argument, this isn't one that I generally do, and it always comes out to be that we have no pre-determined path in life.

Now, a question about your theory: If someone were to have a vision of the future (say, a dream), and then it actually came true. Would that be planned for in the equation, or would it be their brain subconsciously unraveling the equation during the short time that we spend dreaming?

EmeraldFields
03-03-09, 03:31
Now, a question about your theory: If someone were to have a vision of the future (say, a dream), and then it actually came true. Would that be planned for in the equation, or would it be their brain subconsciously unraveling the equation during the short time that we spend dreaming?

That happened to my mom!

She had a dream that her grandpa died and three months later he died from a heart attack.

I don't think she predicted the future, but it is an odd situation.

freeze10108
03-03-09, 03:35
That happened to my mom!

She had a dream that her grandpa died and three months later he died from a heart attack.

I don't think she predicted the future, but it is an odd situation.

That's tragic! I ask this because it's happened to me numerous times (even today while posting in the brain teasers thread.)

EmeraldFields
03-03-09, 03:36
That's tragic! I ask this because it's happened to me numerous times (even today while posting in the brain teasers thread.)

What did you "predict"? If you don't mind me asking...

freeze10108
03-03-09, 03:44
Well, it's really weird, but I seem to be able to predict text (like a string of responses), as well as what I will type in the future. Although, it's really quite odd that I don't remember the dream until after I've completed the foreseen event. So today, I recalled seeing the responses to the question teaser that I'd posted, and then the response that I'd posted to them in a dream that I'd had before.

EmeraldFields
03-03-09, 03:49
Hmm, how odd.

I wouldn't want to know the future. If I knew about when I would die or if something horrible were to happen, then I would live in fear until that event happened.

Ikas90
03-03-09, 04:02
Well, it's really weird, but I seem to be able to predict text (like a string of responses), as well as what I will type in the future. Although, it's really quite odd that I don't remember the dream until after I've completed the foreseen event. So today, I recalled seeing the responses to the question teaser that I'd posted, and then the response that I'd posted to them in a dream that I'd had before.

Stuff like that happens to me all the time. It happens to a lot of people. I think they're called premonitions.

Another example; I would randomly think of the Matrix movie, and the next day, I would see it on TV.

Blowy
03-03-09, 04:02
There is a theory that because everything that occurs can be explained by the laws of Physics/Chemistry (ie molecular collisions etc) that every event since the beginning of time and to the end of time is predetermined.

Unfortunately, the Universe is so complicated, that you'd need a model exactly the size and composition of the Universe to be able to predict what will happen next.

(There's also a theory that we're actually in that model rather than in the original Universe!)

Really no way to prove that though. Every choice, while it has many possible outcomes, actually only one outcome WILL occur, and it's impossible to recreate the exact conditions repeatedly, at the molecular level, to see if the same outcome would occur every time.

Andromeda66
03-03-09, 04:52
I know that there is astrology by which people can say "if you were born on X date of X year at X time in X location, then your star chart is XYZ". Many people claim that it is very accurate - while others will claim that they are general statements that can really apply to anyone. I, for one, have studied my star chart and I think that it paints a pretty accurate picture of me - from the hardships I have endured, on down to my relationships. It goes so far as to say that I will not get into a serious relationship until I am in my early 30's. Being 24 and that not having happened yet, this is pretty accurate. I also know that there is numerology which states there is a mathematical expression for physical things, and it has been said that math can be used to solve anything (look at the show Numb3rs for instance).

Personally, I think Numerology is not a science. Its a pseudo-science.

Next, I think that statement (in bold up there) is inaccurate. Math cannot be used to solve ANYthing.

<chuckle> I remember I used to get really upset about my Dad not listening when I was a girl. He was busy doing some math or physics in his head. When I'd catch him say something about metal being more durable when I was actually asking about sea water salinity, he'd justify by saying, "Oh I guessed what you had probably been talking about and answered accordingly"

That statement, needless to say, got me really riled up. I hated the thought of being likened to a quadratic equation with real roots. Yknow, just plug in some old, pre-established formula and there you have it! All wrong , of course, in my case.

But the point is, you really cannot predict human behaviour by mathematical laws. Not yet at least. And in future too, its highly doubtful, in my personal opinion.

If there was a set of equations for people, there'd be a set of equations by which to predict what they would say to something. And I personally strongly doubt that. The point of mathematics is to understand and simplify. And if "The Human Equation" has too many parameters, then it becomes quite pointless. Kinda like saying, "Oh all metals in this class behave like so-and-so ...except for this one, and this one here, and that one there and that one and ...." ad infinitum. :)
Then its not a law or an equation.

A law is a law only when it holds for all or a substantially large set of all given parameters. Therefore I believe a human equation is highly doubtful. I mean maybe when we can understand even 60% of human brain functions, we may just about begin to formulate sketchy ideas but I mean who knows what 60% feels like! Could be very different from what knowing 6% of all brain functions feels like. Thats another thing, extrapolation doesn't always work with humans either as you might have known, in your life.

Face it, buddy. We're kinda complex in some aspects or that we don't fully understand it. Either way, I'd feel good about it. :D


Its probably a thing best left alone though - thoughts?

I don't know what you mean by "left alone". If you monitor your thoughts, you learn new stuff about your character and personality which can help in "predicting" certain situations and avoiding them. In that way, they can serve you better than if you just "leave them alone". See thats essentially what these mind readers, palmist etc really do. They notice things about you that tell them something about you, that you never even noticed and then surprise you. :)

QiX
03-03-09, 05:13
"In Greek mythology, Cassandra (Greek: Κασσάνδρα "she who entangles men"[1]) (also known as Alexandra[2]) was the daughter of King Priam and Queen Hecuba of Troy. Her beauty caused Apollo to grant her the gift of prophecy. However, when she did not return his love, Apollo placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions." (as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra)

Sometimes myths have better answers than maths ;)

EscondeR
03-03-09, 05:21
A man decides that he never wanted to be born so he goes back in time to shoot his father. However if he killed his father, then there wouldn't be the son in the future to go back in time to shoot the father. Therefore, it would be impossible for a person to change the past because something would prevent us from accomplishing the task.

Very nice example :tmb:
Basically entropy is a kind of order too, if you know what I'm about :) And besides it tends to self-support. Here is the answer to your question.
I wouldn't mess so hard with timelines and any kind of entropy... Main human task is to keep entropy in limits that allow the humanity to exist, nothing more is necessary or safe.


A law is a law only when it holds for all or a substantially large set of all given parameters. Therefore I believe a human equation is highly doubtful. I mean maybe when we can understand even 60% of human brain functions, we may just about begin to formulate sketchy ideas but I mean who knows what 60% feels like! Could be very different from what knowing 6% of all brain functions feels like. Thats another thing, extrapolation doesn't always work with humans either as you might have known, in your life.


The thing is that one who has reached those 60% most likely won't open Pandora's box ;)

rowanlim
03-03-09, 05:29
If there was an equation predicting my future, that'll be one equation I'd refuse to solve! Life becomes less exciting when it's predictable. Everything happens for a reason & it's all about absorbing change & growing from it. I don't want to know what happens in my future, I don't want to have that consciousness that may govern my actions to adjust to what I know.

That happened to my mom!

She had a dream that her grandpa died and three months later he died from a heart attack.

I don't think she predicted the future, but it is an odd situation.

My grandaunt dreamed that her brother (my grandfather who died 22 yrs ago) told her to come over already. She told my aunt about that dream & a month later she died (o.o")

Goose
03-03-09, 07:00
I know that there is astrology by which people can say "if you were born on X date of X year at X time in X location, then your star chart is XYZ"

If you want to believe that then you would have to do it properly, which is difficult, seeing as the calendar the world uses has been changed numerous times. If you were born a thousand years ago you would be most probably a different star sign. I doubt these mystical powers changed the universe just to please a Pope or two.

What your on about is pretty much covered in the Kabbalah though, i think it said something about 4 different realities and astronomy with astrology.

Punaxe
03-03-09, 12:11
Expanding on Andromeda's comment, each individual human has countless variables. I wouldn't deny though that at some point we can accurately model the genome and brain, at which point we may be able to predict that individual's responses to stimuli, but we still can't predict the actual stimuli that will occur.

Something of interest:
Benjamin Libet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet)
(...) Libet's experiments suggest unconscious processes in the brain are the true initiator of volitional acts, therefore, little room remains for the operations of free will. (...)
(Perhaps supporting the idea that everything can be predetermined)

Forer effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect)
(...) The Forer effect (also called personal validation fallacy or the Barnum Effect after P. T. Barnum's observation that "we've got something for everyone") is the observation that individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. (...)
(Supporting your notion of your start chart being accurate, but definitely not supporting that it actually means something - experiments have been repeated many times to prove the Forer effect)

CerebralAssassin
03-03-09, 12:29
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." -???

^if you can find who provided that little gem of knowledge you get a cookie..:)

if there were a way to look into our future then we would need an infinity of equations each describing an event in our lives.and besides that....how many and what variables would each equation have?:p:smk:

*laralover*
03-03-09, 12:29
I wouldnt want to know anything about my future i think things just happen and they happen for a reason. Hm i do have dreams where something happens though and the next day or week the exact same thing will happen and im struck with a bizzare feeling like what the heck i remember this its quite odd. Usually simple things though like a specific thing a friend will ask or tell me or what someone is wearing :D

Andromeda66
03-03-09, 13:52
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." -???

^if you can find who provided that little gem of knowledge you get a cookie..:)

if there were a way to look into our future then we would need an infinity of equations each describing an event in our lives.and besides that....how many and what variables would each equation have?:p:smk:

:yik: EINSTEIN! you , of all people should know that!!! :smk:

EgyptianSoul
03-03-09, 14:12
I remember taking a numerology test sometime in my childhood and it told me that my purpose in life is to either sacrifice myself for the good of humankind or dedicate myself to business and making money... I didn't think much of it back then.

The funny thing is that now I'm at the crossroads and those are my 2 most probable options. I just realized that. Scary huh... I haven't decided quite yet.

It could be just a lucky coincidence....? Or not. :cool:

CerebralAssassin
03-03-09, 14:22
:yik: EINSTEIN! you , of all people should know that!!! :smk:

of course I knew that Prachee....I was just testing whether anyone else knew...bravo you found it!!:tmb::hug:

Andromeda66
03-03-09, 14:26
Oh yeah. He also said, "Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics. I assure you that mine are greater still" .

Those are the two quotes I grew up hearing the most. It was a sitter :)

Geck-o-Lizard
03-03-09, 14:27
Let's say you've predicted the future from a dream a few times in your life. What about all the dreams that weren't predictions, or "predicted" things that never came to pass?

spikejones
03-03-09, 14:58
I'd first off like to say that there are many arguments against the feasability of this theory and i could probably rattle off any number of them myself - but I wanted to open the door to the discussion/debate by basically outlining it without arguing it too much or refining it too much - just a simple overview of it.

Now, a question about your theory: If someone were to have a vision of the future (say, a dream), and then it actually came true. Would that be planned for in the equation, or would it be their brain subconsciously unraveling the equation during the short time that we spend dreaming?
This could be possible..
Personally, I think Numerology is not a science. Its a pseudo-science.

well... many people believe Religion not to be true because it cannot be implicitly proven ;)

Next, I think that statement (in bold up there) is inaccurate. Math cannot be used to solve ANYthing.

<chuckle> I remember I used to get really upset about my Dad not listening when I was a girl. He was busy doing some math or physics in his head. When I'd catch him say something about metal being more durable when I was actually asking about sea water salinity, he'd justify by saying, "Oh I guessed what you had probably been talking about and answered accordingly"
well this is simply his little excuse for a false mind reading - not showing that math is not use able to solve anything. :confused:


But the point is, you really cannot predict human behaviour by mathematical laws. Not yet at least. And in future too, its highly doubtful, in my personal opinion.
perhaps the equations do not fully predict everything a person will do, but rather will predict simply - when an offspring will arise, as well as when the person will expire. rather than call it an "equation" it may simply be an expression that builds up and up and up until it just becomes unsolvable - meaning the person just dies. Or something like that. Hard to explain with my lack of knowledge of higher echelon mathematics.


I don't know what you mean by "left alone". If you monitor your thoughts, you learn new stuff about your character and personality which can help in "predicting" certain situations and avoiding them. In that way, they can serve you better than if you just "leave them alone". See thats essentially what these mind readers, palmist etc really do. They notice things about you that tell them something about you, that you never even noticed and then surprise you. :)When I say "left alone" - I am referring to ability to accurately predict the future. It presents a definite can of worms - or "pandoras box" as EscondeR put it. With that power in the wrong hands - it could cause a massive rift in the space-time continuum

and all this is of course very hard for many people to grasp or even accept if the equation were to be so concise as to predict every facet of a persons existence. That would in essence throw the notion of free will - choice etc.. out the window. It would then mean that we really have no choice and are predestined to do certain things. Some may look at that and say "well this could disprove the existence of god" and not wish to seek out that knowledge. But perhaps... it merely disproves that concept of god to which they have become accustomed to. It could quite simply be that the great creator created things intentionally as such.

Of course... the whole equation may be like the as of yet unsolvable P=NP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity_classes_P_and_NP)

Chocola teapot
03-03-09, 15:26
I would like to predict the future. I do have deja vu.