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Mad Tony
09-03-09, 16:45
WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon charged Monday that five Chinese ships shadowed and maneuvered dangerously close to a U.S. Navy vessel in an apparent attempt to harass the American crew.

Defense officials in the Obama administration said the incident Sunday followed several days of "increasingly aggressive" acts by Chinese ships in the region. The incident took place in international waters in the South China Sea, about 75 miles south of Hainan Island.

U.S. officials said a protest was lodged with the Chinese government over the weekend and it was to be repeated to a Beijing military attache at a Pentagon meeting Monday.


The USNS Impeccable sprayed one ship with water from fire hoses to force it away. Despite the force of the water, Chinese crew members stripped to their underwear and continued closing within 25 feet, the Defense Department said.

"On March 8, 2009, five Chinese vessels shadowed and aggressively maneuvered in dangerously close proximity to USNS Impeccable, in an apparent coordinated effort to harass the U.S. ocean surveillance ship while it was conducting routine operations in international waters," the Pentagon statement said.

Full story: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/09/pentagon-chinese-ships-harassed-unarmed-navy-craft-international-waters/

Very odd. :confused: Kinda reminds me of the film Tomorrow Never Dies.

SamReeves
09-03-09, 16:54
The Chinese can't be trusted. They make poisionous pet food, launder our money, and hold the U.S. hostage with unfair trade. I say time to bring the Iowa class back to service and match bravado with the chumps. Or better yet raise the Japanese Navy back to its old self! ;)

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/jitterysquirrel/hopse26.jpg

]{eith
09-03-09, 16:59
Very odd. :confused: Kinda reminds me of the film Tomorrow Never Dies.

I only just watched that film for the first time last night so I see this and I'm like 'what the!?' :eek:

Spong
09-03-09, 17:28
The Chinese can't be trusted. They make poisionous pet food, launder our money, and hold the U.S. hostage with unfair trade. I say time to bring the Iowa class back to service and match bravado with the chumps. Or better yet raise the Japanese Navy back to its old self! ;)

Nothing like a narrow-margined, blinkered mind. Thank God people like you hold no power, we'd all be dead.

interstellardave
09-03-09, 17:57
Someone comes in and turns this topic against the US in 3.... 2....

:cln:


Nothing like a narrow-margined, blinkered mind. Thank God people like you hold no power, we'd all be dead.


He's not wrong about the specific points though... especially poison pet food. There has been a rash of product recalls, seemingly a new one each week or two, and the products all trace back to China!

If I had the time I'd probably look at every food item (pet or otherwise) that I buy just to see whether or not it comes from China!

Mona Sax
09-03-09, 18:01
Boys with toys... :rolleyes:

rickybazire
09-03-09, 18:06
Always something suspicious about some of these countries, maybe something will happen, who knows...

SamReeves
09-03-09, 18:21
Nothing like a narrow-margined, blinkered mind. Thank God people like you hold no power, we'd all be dead.

Same to you too ding-dong! Try discussing before attacking. :wve:

Someone comes in and turns this topic against the US in 3.... 2....

Oh yes, you can set your clock by it! :p

:cln:

He's not wrong about the specific points though... especially poison pet food. There has been a rash of product recalls, seemingly a new one each week or two, and the products all trace back to China!

If I had the time I'd probably look at every food item (pet or otherwise) that I buy just to see whether or not it comes from China!

Yup. I am worried about how much industry is escaping overseas. Not too many products are made in the USA. Much of it due to the constraints set forth by the government and unions.

Oh BTW, on a lighter note, don't forget how China cheated in the Olympics by sending in the underage girls for gymnastics! ;)

Lost_Raider
13-03-09, 14:23
According to FAS blogs and USNS Impeccable's deisgn as a Sub hunter, it looks more like a case of harrassment and counter harrassment.

FAS report on the new Chinese naval base in Hainan.

http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/04/new-chinese-ssbn-deploys-to-hainan-island-naval-base.php

Fact 1: Chinese has been building a new naval base in Hainan to support best ships of their navy, plus half of their nuclear weapon stockpile.

Fact 2: This is not the first such incident that happened over the same area (USN EP-3 collided with Chinese planes over the exact same area, with US Kitty Hawk Carrier has been denied visit to Hong Kong)

Fact 3: USNS Impeccable has one of the best Sonar equipment in the world and happens to be 75 miles south of the new Chinese naval base when the incident occured.

Suspious when you notice the sudden spike in Chinese submarine deployment in 2008:

http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/02/patrols.php

Chinese motive, despite their claim that Impeccable was in their water and steal resources (which obviously was not), was simple. They want US navy to stay away from it's nuclear subs and maybe steal US sonar equipment if things gets ugly like that EP-3 incident.

So my questions to the entire incident are which Chinese sub was Impeccable chasing that made the Chinese mad (my money is on the new sub that can carry 12 nuclear missiles)? And given incidents like this happens regularly around the same area, why did US navy decide to make a big deal of it now? And why is the US navy was so up-in-your-face when trying to learn Chinese military secrets?

Update: USN decided to deploy warships to escort Impeccable to perform the same mission again...if this is not handled with care, it might as well be a blockade of Chinese navy and a declearation of war.

Lost_Raider
13-03-09, 14:38
BTW, I just learned the real reason why China was so good at stealing jobs from US.

During the Vietnam War, in order to supply North Vietnam with enough weapons and to prevent US airpower from shutting down Chinese war industry, Mao built tons of factory just as backup. When US and China opened up trade, all those factories that are designed to support the massive Chinese army for an US invasion was converted to manufacture cheap goods that we buy today...kinda scary when consider how much US actually lose during Vietnam War.

Trinity34
13-03-09, 14:38
Well now that the press has gotten hold of this now everyone will know what they have :p sheesh The chinese think they can harass the US and not have anybody find out?

Lost_Raider
13-03-09, 14:42
Well now that the press has gotten hold of this now everyone will know what they have :p sheesh The chinese think they can harass the US and not have anybody find out?


Actually, since US navy played dumb and refuse to confirm that USNS was on a military mission...they might as well help Chinese to hide their new subs.

Trinity34
13-03-09, 14:46
From what I understood the actual crew was not a Navy crew but contractors, so technically can the Navy say that they(Navy) was on a mission?

Lost_Raider
13-03-09, 14:54
From what I understood the actual crew was not a Navy crew but contractors, so technically can the Navy say that they(Navy) was on a mission?

Actually, I have to take my word back, USN confirmed few days later that they were on a mission to hunt for Chinese subs.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jzzULJt2ZiW2IZR3KKuViEpbOAlQD96S7M2G0

But given CNN already lost interest in the subject, I doubt this news will reach the general public. Most people will still think this incident is about Chinese navy harrass US civilian ship despite the facts is more complicated than that.

Trinity34
13-03-09, 15:29
Well it all boils down to the Chinese did not want the US to see their super secret subs but of course we had to see if our technology works. :)

Lost_Raider
13-03-09, 15:45
Well it all boils down to the Chinese did not want the US to see their super secret subs but of course we had to see if our technology works. :)

One more detail to that picture...Chinese also want a copy of US Sonar technology.

tampi
13-03-09, 15:47
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/jitterysquirrel/hopse26.jpg

My God!!, yesterday while driving on the highway blew a wheel of a truck that was side by side. My whole car was moving and my heart almost comes out of my mouth. I can imagine what it must be in that boat.:yik:


This is what happens when U.S. shows "weakness" .

amiro1989
13-03-09, 16:38
So when are they going to plan China's invasion.... :whi:

Lost_Raider
13-03-09, 17:02
So when are they going to plan China's invasion.... :whi:

US will not invade China...Mao called LBJ's invasion bluff during Vietnam War, and in response Nixion sold South Vietnam out to China and recognized PRC government. The Chinese are so confident in this observation that their nuclear weapon policy didn't even bother to mention the use of nuclear weapon during foreign invasion.

The only country that has the capability to invade China is Russia, and all of Chinese counter-invasion battle plan are aimed at Russia, not US.

The real problem the China has with US was the containment field the US had setup against China during the Cold War, stretching from Korean all the way down to Philippines. Given historically during imperial times that Chinese navy can operate freely from Japan all the way down to Philippines and well into Indian Ocean, the US containment field was simply unacceptable to the Chinese leadership.

Thus in my own personal opinion that China and US are on a collision course. The only problem that US are stretch too thin around the world, while China can just deliver a blow by just reach its hand out of a window.

Draco
13-03-09, 17:11
Are you ****ing kidding me? If the United States Navy wanted to track submarines, they wouldn't use a goddamn surface ship. The very idea of it is absurd if you know what you are talking about.

Lost_Raider
13-03-09, 17:29
Are you ****ing kidding me? If the United States Navy wanted to track submarines, they wouldn't use a goddamn surface ship. The very idea of it is absurd if you know what you are talking about.

It is only absurd if the Chinese sub is operating outside of terrtorial water on a nuclear deterrant patrol. At the moment the Chinese nuclear sub cannot operate outside its coastal water, and thus presents no creditable nuclear threat to justify a SSN to track them down with torpedo ready to fire.

So you are saying it is better for US sub, torpedo loaded and ready, to follow the Chinese sub all the way to the Chinese coast? Even during Cold War against the Russians I don't believe US navy was that aggresive. USNS Impeccable, on the other hand, can listen miles away from Chinese home waters.

And finally, DOD says:

Defense Department officials say the Impeccable was on a mission to seek out threats such as submarines and was towing a sonar apparatus that scans and listens for subs, mines and torpedoes. With its numerous Chinese military installations, Hainan offers rich hunting for such surveillance

amiro1989
13-03-09, 17:40
US will not invade China...Mao called LBJ's invasion bluff during Vietnam War, and in response Nixion sold South Vietnam out to China and recognized PRC government. The Chinese are so confident in this observation that their nuclear weapon policy didn't even bother to mention the use of nuclear weapon during foreign invasion.

The only country that has the capability to invade China is Russia, and all of Chinese counter-invasion battle plan are aimed at Russia, not US.

The real problem the China has with US was the containment field the US had setup against China during the Cold War, stretching from Korean all the way down to Philippines. Given historically during imperial times that Chinese navy can operate freely from Japan all the way down to Philippines and well into Indian Ocean, the US containment field was simply unacceptable to the Chinese leadership.

Thus in my own personal opinion that China and US are on a collision course. The only problem that US are stretch too thin around the world, while China can just deliver a blow by just reach its hand out of a window.

I was joking... ;)

Goose
13-03-09, 17:47
China cant delivery any military action anywhere. Like Iran, they have more or less isolated themselves, any overseas military action taken would end with a world wide response which would lay waste to there military in a matter of weeks, poorly armed, poorly fed, poorly accommodated troops are hardly worth having, as Russia knows all to well.

Draco
14-03-09, 00:06
It is only absurd if the Chinese sub is operating outside of terrtorial water on a nuclear deterrant patrol. At the moment the Chinese nuclear sub cannot operate outside its coastal water, and thus presents no creditable nuclear threat to justify a SSN to track them down with torpedo ready to fire.

I'm sure the Impeccable was the only USN asset in play if they were specifically hunting for subs.

And why would any nuclear sub, Chinese or otherwise be unable to operate outside coastal waters?

So you are saying it is better for US sub, torpedo loaded and ready, to follow the Chinese sub all the way to the Chinese coast? Even during Cold War against the Russians I don't believe US navy was that aggresive. USNS Impeccable, on the other hand, can listen miles away from Chinese home waters.

That is exactly what I'm saying. The Chinese subs are no match for ours. And submarines were the closest the Cold War ever got to warming up.

As for the Impeccable, sure the TSA (Towed SONAR Array) is a neat piece of machinery, but it is far more impressive towed from a submarine.

Lost_Raider
14-03-09, 01:43
I'm sure the Impeccable was the only USN asset in play if they were specifically hunting for subs.

Correction - USNS Impeccable is one of the two ships in US navy capable of long range detection, tracking, and identification of enemy subs. And it did act as escort to US carrier battle groups stationed in Japan.

And why would any nuclear sub, Chinese or otherwise be unable to operate outside coastal waters?

Chinese navy training sucked, period. Despite the fact that CNN keep showing off all the shiny new toys the Chinese got, the Chinese military has no clue on what to do with them. Chinese new generation 4 aircraft don't have enough tankers and parts to keep them running all the time, and not enough trainer aircraft to train new pilots to fly them. The navy is not much better off, ship/sub captains are only taught how to operate with ground force support. To make matters worse, the new toys the Chinese navy got has no tech/tactic/strategy/logistic support. When Chinese navy has to deploy in serious showdown beyond its shoreline, its skippers and captains will crap in their pants and to show the world what a bunch of idiots they really are...so to perserve face, better stay at home and claim that their navy was interested in "peace" because it "refuses" to deploy forces outside of its country.

That is exactly what I'm saying. The Chinese subs are no match for ours. And submarines were the closest the Cold War ever got to warming up.

It's not just a matter of firepower, it is also a game of politic.

First of all, US sub patrol was designed to hunt down and kill Soviet boomers before it could launch its missiles. To fulfill that job, the attack sub has to stay close withing torpedo range at all times once contact is made. If a US sub was to follow a Chinese boomers this way, it has to be deep within legitimate Chinese waters, and what kind of diplomatic message does that send, short of I'm positively gonna invade and destroy you? Heck, if a US sub caught this way, alive or dead, it would either mean US got marines ready to roll, or the president is an idiot that disregard every international law in existance. Even when US subs tracking Soviet subs, it has to stay 12 miles away from Soviet shores or Soviets will shoot back under international law. You could argue that it doesn't have to launch torpedos, but that is a huge shift in US nuclear strategy which I'm not seeing.

Second point is the fact that USNS Impeccable was 75 miles away from Chinese coast (the international law says US ships can come within 12 miles from shore) ...that is the exact maximum range of a typical Chinese anti-ship missile stationed at shore. This means that US navy is well aware of the Chinese response if they got too close. I doubt they would risk sneak in a sub for hunter-killer style patrol if they knew the conseqences.

Finally, the current Chinese nuclear strategy was not interested in fighting, its interested in scaring US to back-off in its backyard. To fulfill this end, the Chinese leaked the fact that they got better boomers than the nosiy usless junk they build during the 80s. But the catch is that they didn't say anything specific about the new boomer's capability to keep US guessing. If the Chinese believes that US can have 100% details on Chinese nuclear capabilities, China will be scared to death. And what happens next comes the nuclear war between US and China. For this reason the US tries to be discreet about learning Chinese nuclear secrets, and sending in a sub at Chinese's face is the most non-discreet way to probing nuclear secret while sending in a civilian ship parked miles away from Chinese territories is the most discreet way.

As for the Impeccable, sure the TSA (Towed SONAR Array) is a neat piece of machinery, but it is far more impressive towed from a submarine.

It would be even neater if the US navy actually spend money to have it installed on a sub, but they didn't. So far only two ships in US navy is armed with it, and both are unarmed civilian boat.

Twilight
14-03-09, 03:20
Boys with toys... :rolleyes:

haha, funny you should say that. every war sounds like a bunch of kindergarteners in a hissy fit.

The_Underworld
14-03-09, 03:36
Soon us Canadians will join in:pi:.

Tell your army to duck when we throw maple syrup at their fancy toy boats;)

SpArKy
19-03-09, 19:27
Well..just still shows the mentality of the Chinese Military...I can imagine the little sod's having fun because they had the ship outnumbered. America would still win purely because they are more organised nation and efficient.