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Tyrannosaurus
06-06-09, 06:38
If we condensed the entire span of Earth's history into one year, then here is what would happen on the following dates:

January 1st: The Earth begins

Springtime, March 20th: Birthday of DNA. The first one-celled bacteria, bobbing happily in the muck, re-creates itself. All life forms thereafter will be stamped with the same DNA.

Thanksgiving: Sea creatures pioneer the land.

December 11th: The Permian-Triassic extinction. 90% of all life goes extinct. This is the darkest chapter in the history of the planet, bar none.

December 13th: Dinosaurs enter, but we don't actually take over for another day or two. Mammals, pterosaurs, and crocodiles enter at about this time, too.

December 26th: My empire falls

Evening of December 31st: The first man-like creatures appear.

December 31st, 11:59:45 to 11:59:50: The Roman empire rises and falls.

3.5 seconds to midnight Columbus discovers America (or the Native Americans discover Columbus)

1/20th of a second to midnight: The Beatles play the Ed Sullivan Show.

What is depressing to note is that when humanity becomes extinct, all man-made traces of its existence will disappear in about 10,000 years. The radio signals sent into space won't even get out of the solar system. But dinosaur fossils will still lie in the ground.

Goose
06-06-09, 07:30
What is depressing to note is that when humanity becomes extinct, all man-made traces of its existence will disappear in about 10,000 years. The radio signals sent into space won't even get out of the solar system. But dinosaur fossils will still lie in the ground.

Well the latest link in the evolutionary chain was millions of years old, so id say our bodies would make just as good fossils as dinosaurs.

spikejones
06-06-09, 07:35
Well the latest link in the evolutionary chain was millions of years old, so id say our bodies would make just as good fossils as dinosaurs.

I'd say so too ;)

But the general idea of what is presented here is the human existence is naught but the width of a hair on an ever expanding timeline.

patriots88888
06-06-09, 07:36
What is depressing to note is that when humanity becomes extinct, all man-made traces of its existence will disappear in about 10,000 years. The radio signals sent into space won't even get out of the solar system. But dinosaur fossils will still lie in the ground.

You're forgetting one thing. Most scientists believe that when our solar system's star (the sun) becomes a red giant, it will engulf the Earth, leaving our once nice, comfy home into nothing but ashes floating about in space. Therefore, no more dinosaur fossils in the ground I'm afraid.

Goose
06-06-09, 08:06
You're forgetting one thing. Most scientists believe that when our solar system's star (the sun) becomes a red giant, it will engulf the Earth, leaving our once nice, comfy home into nothing but ashes floating about in space. Therefore, no more dinosaur fossils in the ground I'm afraid.

In the millions of years that it takes for that to happen, im sure we would have been into the next solar system in space exploration.


But the general idea of what is presented here is the human existence is naught but the width of a hair on an ever expanding timeline.

But theres still prehistoric animals about today, of all life in the world, id put my money on cockroaches and Humans being the survivors of the next ice age.

patriots88888
06-06-09, 08:24
In the millions of years that it takes for that to happen, im sure we would have been into the next solar system in space exploration.

What does that have to do with fossils in the Earth's mantle?

My point is, with our sun most likely vaporizing Earth when it becomes a red giant, any evidence or remains of human (or any other species) existence on this planet will cease to exist, regardless of any future space exploration. At least in concrete terms it will. It will all become scattered ashes in space.

Goose
06-06-09, 08:26
What does that have to do with fossils in the Earth's mantle?

My point is, with our sun most likely vaporizing Earth when it becomes a red giant, any evidence or remains of human (or any other species) existence on this planet will cease to exist, regardless of any future space exploration. At least in concrete terms it will. It will all become scattered ashes in space.

Ahh i thought the original post was implying the death of our species.

Well it was wasnt it, the extinct part?

Punaxe
06-06-09, 15:15
Allow me to illustrate:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/351/earthshistory.jpg (http://files.noctifer.net/Earth's history.png)

http://files.noctifer.net/Human extinction.jpg

stereopathic
06-06-09, 15:26
this isn't depressing. it's fascinating. plus, we have technology on our side. there are already theories on how to adjust the earth's orbit for when the sun encroaches upon us. plus, 5 billion years into the future, we'll have the technology to get to other stars, other worlds.

but an asteroid's gonna flatten us before any of this happens anyhow so just sit back and enjoy the apocalypse. no use worrying about it.

Goose
06-06-09, 15:29
but an asteroid's gonna flatten us before any of this happens anyhow so just sit back and enjoy the apocalypse. no use worrying about it.

We've already been by-passed by a few that were originally going to.

stereopathic
06-06-09, 15:30
We've already been by-passed by a few that were originally going to.

merely warning shots fired across our bow. :D

Goose i have to ask, is your spetsnaz avatar because you like soviet special forces, or you like good music?

patriots88888
07-06-09, 00:27
Ahh i thought the original post was implying the death of our species.

Well it was wasnt it, the extinct part?

Yes, but what's also implied in the OP's closing statements is that our fossilized remains would still be present after our presence on this planet ceases as proof of that very existence. They would, but only for a given amount of time... the poof, all up in smoke. :p

Draco
07-06-09, 02:41
this isn't depressing. it's fascinating. plus, we have technology on our side. there are already theories on how to adjust the earth's orbit for when the sun encroaches upon us. plus, 5 billion years into the future, we'll have the technology to get to other stars, other worlds.

but an asteroid's gonna flatten us before any of this happens anyhow so just sit back and enjoy the apocalypse. no use worrying about it.

Alright, before we go renaming Earth to Corellia, it should be noted that not only would the planet not survive the attempt to move it intact, but the sun turning into a red giant would be the end of the solar system and everything in it.

Goose
07-06-09, 06:14
merely warning shots fired across our bow. :D

Goose i have to ask, is your spetsnaz avatar because you like soviet special forces, or you like good music?

I know of the band, but i got the logo because im interested in the military force lol.

rowanlim
07-06-09, 08:23
Alright, before we go renaming Earth to Corellia, it should be noted that not only would the planet not survive the attempt to move it intact, but the sun turning into a red giant would be the end of the solar system and everything in it.

I'm just glad that I'll be dead by the time that happens.

stereopathic
07-06-09, 13:04
Alright, before we go renaming Earth to Corellia, it should be noted that not only would the planet not survive the attempt to move it intact, but the sun turning into a red giant would be the end of the solar system and everything in it.

while i'm sure your e-doctorate in astrophysics gives you great authority, i'm gonna have to side with the real scientists i heard speaking about this. :D

Draco
07-06-09, 15:50
I'm just glad that I'll be dead by the time that happens.

You might be :p

while i'm sure your e-doctorate in astrophysics gives you great authority, i'm gonna have to side with the real scientists i heard speaking about this. :D

Do you have anything from these 'real scientists'?

And which part of my statement are you disagreeing with?

Croft, Lara
07-06-09, 15:54
At 6th Form the other day we had a really 'deep' chat about stuff like this.

We were saying that it is strange to think that there was once no people. And then we were talking about time travel and then my head hurt.

stereopathic
07-06-09, 17:18
Do you have anything from these 'real scientists'?

And which part of my statement are you disagreeing with?

do you have anything to refute the possibility of altering a planet's orbit in the year 4,000,000,000 A.D.? :D

quick google search turned this up: This startling idea of improving our interplanetary neighbourhood is the brainchild of a group of Nasa engineers and American astronomers who say their plan could add another six billion years to the useful lifetime of our planet - effectively doubling its working life.

'The technology is not at all far-fetched,' said Dr Greg Laughlin, of the Nasa Ames Research Center in California. 'It involves the same techniques that people now suggest could be used to deflect asteroids or comets heading towards Earth. We don't need raw power to move Earth, we just require delicacy of planning and manoeuvring.' [source] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2001/jun/10/globalwarming.climatechange)

cynics of the past said that the g-forces generated by the 40mph speeds of steam engines would crush a human being. our only limitations are the ones we impose on ourselves. have an open mind. the possibilities are boundless.

Draco
07-06-09, 17:43
do you have anything to refute the possibility of altering a planet's orbit in the year 4,000,000,000 A.D.? :D

We can alter a planet's orbit now.

What we cannot do is artificially recreate the solar system inside of a Dyson Sphere in such a way as to not destroy the whole point of moving the planet in the first place.

cynics of the past said that the g-forces generated by the 40mph speeds of steam engines would crush a human being. our only limitations are the ones we impose on ourselves. have an open mind. the possibilities are boundless.

I agree, but why expend the energy required to move a planet, when we can simply move to a new one?

stereopathic
07-06-09, 18:46
We can alter a planet's orbit now.

What we cannot do is artificially recreate the solar system inside of a Dyson Sphere in such a way as to not destroy the whole point of moving the planet in the first place.



I agree, but why expend the energy required to move a planet, when we can simply move to a new one?

no one said anything about dyson spheres.

and yes, moving is probably the most likely solution.

Draco
07-06-09, 19:35
no one said anything about dyson spheres.

and yes, moving is probably the most likely solution.

You can't just move a planet. You have to recreate its environment precisely, else you destroy it anyway. A Dyson Sphere is the most likely way to be able to move a planet intact, but there are problems with that as well.

Supposition is not sufficient to say more than 'it is possible'.

stereopathic
07-06-09, 19:51
You can't just move a planet. You have to recreate its environment precisely, else you destroy it anyway. A Dyson Sphere is the most likely way to be able to move a planet intact, but there are problems with that as well.

Supposition is not sufficient to say more than 'it is possible'.

the earth's orbit has been altered before by impact. no dyson sphere necessary. besides, who's to say we're not efficient enough by then to not need one?

i think maybe we're having a misunderstanding here. i never said we were gonna move the earth a hundred light years or anything. i'm talking "minor" adjustments. i think maybe you're talking about a distance much more than that, much father from our sun, where you would need a dyson sphere for energy collection.

or i guess if you're thinking that a dyson sphere is necessary to generate the power necessary to move a planet, you should read the article i linked to. i figured you were interested since you asked to see it. or maybe you just thought i was full of ****. i dunno. i hate the internet.

Draco
07-06-09, 19:53
When the sun goes red giant on us, the Earth will need more than a 'minor adjustment'. The entire solar system will be uninhabitable.

stereopathic
07-06-09, 20:49
i'm sold. you're right. nasa's wrong. **** those a-holes.

Draco
07-06-09, 23:09
Do you know anything about stars or are you just baiting?

stereopathic
08-06-09, 00:53
Do you know anything about stars or are you just baiting?
perhaps it is me who should be asking you this question. because wasn't it you who originally contradicted my factual statement about scientists already having theories about altering the earth's orbit...with a barbed reference to science fiction no less?

since that moment, you've tried to convince me that their theory (i guess you ultimately conceded that it exists) is wrong because it won't be technologically possible in a billion or so years. and you tried to maintain that a red giant would render our solar system unlivable, even though they feel the planet might be able to survive for another six billion years.

but you also said that we have the technology to move the earth now. baffling, right?

look, i am an astronomy enthusiast. nothing more. i'm fascinated by it and read/watch as much as i can on the subject. i wouldn't presume to know more than i actually do.

however, i do know that the educated hypotheses of those bright minds at our nation's space administration have to win out over the opinion of a fellow TRFer. so forgive me if i'm not buying into your statements about what will and won't be possible billions of years from now. it's not a shot at you, and i'm not 'baiting' you. but until you post your resume or list of qualifications, i'm not going to believe you over other, more reputable sources. no offense intended but that's the most logical way to approach this.

Draco
08-06-09, 01:17
perhaps it is me who should be asking you this question. because wasn't it you who originally contradicted my factual statement about scientists already having theories about altering the earth's orbit...with a barbed reference to science fiction no less?

Theories are one thing, doing it is another.

since that moment, you've tried to convince me that their theory (i guess you ultimately conceded that it exists) is wrong because it won't be technologically possible in a billion or so years.

You are mistaken, I'm not saying it won't be possible. I'm saying it won't be worth the trouble. If we even still exist then. I tend to look at the practical side of things.

and you tried to maintain that a red giant would render our solar system unlivable, even though they feel the planet might be able to survive for another six billion years.


Okay, first of all, Sol won't even be at risk of transitioning into a red giant for billions of years, but once it does, it will not support life no matter how you tinker with the Earth's orbit. Earth would be vaporized in the process of Sol's expansion into a red giant. Earth would need an identical star to the one we have now.

but you also said that we have the technology to move the earth now. baffling, right?

Being able to move the planet is not even the hard part. Doing it without destroying the planet and everything on it is.

however, i do know that the educated hypotheses of those bright minds at our nation's space administration have to win out over the opinion of a fellow TRFer.

I see, so you take something they said out of context and apply it to an unrealistic scenario. You sound like FOX News.

so forgive me if i'm not buying into your statements about what will and won't be possible billions of years from now.

Billions of years from now, this rock we live on won't be worth saving, even if we haven't destroyed it.

it's not a shot at you, and i'm not 'baiting' you. but until you post your resume or list of qualifications, i'm not going to believe you over other, more reputable sources. no offense intended but that's the most logical way to approach this.

Logic would say that moving an entire planet without considering every possible scenario is going to end badly.

This entire discussion is academic. Mere theories are not what it would take to move this planet anywhere.

stereopathic
08-06-09, 03:33
good god! are you still trying to convince me that your "theories" are more credible than nasa's? i can't emphasize this strongly enough: you're wasting your ****ing time. go do something else.

Draco
08-06-09, 05:35
You don't have any idea what those theories are about or what would be involved.

Maybe you need to read up on the subject.

Cochrane
08-06-09, 05:44
good god! are you still trying to convince me that your "theories" are more credible than nasa's? i can't emphasize this strongly enough: you're wasting your ****ing time. go do something else.

Uh... he does not try to convince you that his theories are better than NASA's. Nowhere at all.

NASA's solution is trying to solve the problem of earth being inhabitable in the near future (i.e. next billion years). I don't see where he said that this won't work. What he talks about is earth existing at all in the long term, that is after the six billion years the NASA engineers predict to get out of it. At that time, the technology will no longer work, and NASA already knows that.

Draco
08-06-09, 06:09
Right, stereo is suggesting that NASA has some magic theory to whisk Earth away when Sol decides to get old and die. And of course it isn't even remotely that simple.

stereopathic
08-06-09, 14:03
NASA's solution is trying to solve the problem of earth being inhabitable in the near future (i.e. next billion years). I don't see where he said that this won't work.

tthere are already theories on how to adjust the earth's orbit for when the sun encroaches upon us. plus, 5 billion years into the future, we'll have the technology to get to other stars, other worlds.

it should be noted that not only would the planet not survive the attempt to move it intact, but the sun turning into a red giant would be the end of the solar system and everything in it.

you'll see that i refer above to an era 5 billion years from now. i never said anything about the state of the earth or solar system beyond this time frame. i've certainly suggested nothing about whisking the earth away after the sun is dead and i resent words being put in my mouth.

you can also see draco said that the earth cannot survive a move (as this was a direct reply to my post, we can conclude that he is referring to the theory of altering earth's orbit and time frame i mentioned ) & a red giant "would be the end of the solar system and everything in it" which puts his beliefs in direct contention with nasa's theory mentioned above.

so draco disagrees with astronomers and scientists who are talented and educated enough to work for a prestigious institution. i'm left with this choice: believe the articles i've read and shows i've watched on the subject, or believe some guy on the internet. it's not really a choice at all when you think about it.

i choose nasa.

Trigger_happy
08-06-09, 14:24
When's Thanksgiving?

Anyway, it amazing that we've only really been on earth for like a second in comparison to other species, but we've done so much in that time.

Draco
08-06-09, 15:06
you'll see that i refer above to an era 5 billion years from now. i never said anything about the state of the earth or solar system beyond this time frame. i've certainly suggested nothing about whisking the earth away after the sun is dead and i resent words being put in my mouth.

you can also see draco said that the earth cannot survive a move (as this was a direct reply to my post, we can conclude that he is referring to the theory of altering earth's orbit and time frame i mentioned ) & a red giant "would be the end of the solar system and everything in it" which puts his beliefs in direct contention with nasa's theory mentioned above.

so draco disagrees with astronomers and scientists who are talented and educated enough to work for a prestigious institution. i'm left with this choice: believe the articles i've read and shows i've watched on the subject, or believe some guy on the internet. it's not really a choice at all when you think about it.

i choose nasa.

Are you trying to say that Sol will not turn into a red giant? We are both talking about the same period of time. No minor adjustment of orbit will save Earth from Sol when this happens.

If you are talking about a different 'encroachment of the sun', then you should be more specific, since the only thing that would qualify is the fracking thing turning into a red giant.

stereopathic
08-06-09, 15:47
Are you trying to say that Sol will not turn into a red giant? We are both talking about the same period of time. No minor adjustment of orbit will save Earth from Sol when this happens.

If you are talking about a different 'encroachment of the sun', then you should be more specific, since the only thing that would qualify is the fracking thing turning into a red giant.

of course i'm talking about our sun becoming a red giant. and of course a single minor adjustment won't save earth, especially if we wait 5 billion years to perform one. they have to be done repeatedly with the first possibly coming in 1 billion years. the scientists i've been referring to believe that the earth's demise can be put off for another six billion years with this method.

i know you think that the red giant phase of our sun's life cycle means the end of everything in our solar system but this isn't the case. it's not as destructive of an event as you believe. while the sun's diameter will expand far enough to swallow up several of her planets, much of the remaining system will be left intact to some degree. if the earth was nudged into an orbit that maintained similar temperatures to the one's we have now (around where saturn is now), the planet could co-exist with this red giant and life could survive upon it.

i don't mean to state these things as fact. this is, of course, primarily hypothetical as is much of what you've said. but i am assuming that we both understand this.

Draco
08-06-09, 15:57
Well the whole thing is academic anyway, by the time we can make that happen, it won't be worth the effort.

stereopathic
08-06-09, 16:06
our species will never survive long enough to see this happen. and if we actually did, we'd be somewhere far away when it does. this planet's a hooptie anyway. we should just throw it in the gutter first chance we get.

Cochrane
08-06-09, 16:10
of course i'm talking about our sun becoming a red giant. and of course a single minor adjustment won't save earth, especially if we wait 5 billion years to perform one. they have to be done repeatedly with the first possibly coming in 1 billion years. the scientists i've been referring to believe that the earth's demise can be put off for another six billion years with this method.

i know you think that the red giant phase of our sun's life cycle means the end of everything in our solar system but this isn't the case. it's not as destructive of an event as you believe. while the sun's diameter will expand far enough to swallow up several of her planets, much of the remaining system will be left intact to some degree. if the earth was nudged into an orbit that maintained similar temperatures to the one's we have now (around where saturn is now), the planet could co-exist with this red giant and life could survive upon it.

i don't mean to state these things as fact. this is, of course, primarily hypothetical as is much of what you've said. but i am assuming that we both understand this.
Ah, OK, that's what you mean. Hm, an interesting idea, but still largely unproven.

stereopathic
08-06-09, 16:18
Hm, an interesting idea, but still largely unproven.

completely agree. :)

stereopathic
08-06-09, 16:26
here's a journal article, written by a nasa scientist, that talks of the possibility of life existing in our red-giant-occupied solar system seven billion years from now.

y'all can read it if you like.

Titan under a red giant sun: A new kind of habitable moon (http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~rlorenz/redgiant.pdf)

sry for the 2xpost.

Draco
08-06-09, 17:17
Well I'm glad we aren't as different in our thinking as I though we were, just misunderstanding each other.

Europa is another moon that is theorized to be habitable with an earthlike environment. Arthur C Clarke even made it happen when he turned Jupiter into a second mini star.

stereopathic
08-06-09, 19:02
Well I'm glad we aren't as different in our thinking as I though we were, just misunderstanding each other.
yes. me too.
Europa is another moon that is theorized to be habitable with an earthlike environment. Arthur C Clarke even made it happen when he turned Jupiter into a second mini star.
oh heck yeah! europa is a truly exciting place. if i had to make a list of the things i wanted to happen before i die, the exploration of it would certainly be on there!

i watched a show on a guy who had developed an inexpensive (in space exploration terms :D) method for robotically exploring it that was really very interesting. maybe you saw it too. basically it bored down through the ice, planting radio relays as it descended to the water beneath, where an aquatic robot could explore a short distance, radioing back pictures and information and whatnot.

he was testing it in antarctica, boring down to an isolated pocket of water that hadn't touched the atmosphere in thousands, or maybe it was even millions, of years. but he stopped just short of reaching it when he thought about how the bacteria on the drill would immediately contaminate the water he was trying to reach. he said that until they can solve this problem, there's no way of exploring europa without leaving pieces of our own world behind.

they can't solve that issue fast enough.

Ward Dragon
08-06-09, 20:14
When's Thanksgiving?

I'm assuming they mean the US's Thanksgiving, which is the fourth Thursday in November. There's also a Thanksgiving in Canada which is the second Monday in October.

he was testing it in antarctica, boring down to an isolated pocket of water that hadn't touched the atmosphere in thousands, or maybe it was even millions, of years. but he stopped just short of reaching it when he thought about how the bacteria on the drill would immediately contaminate the water he was trying to reach. he said that until they can solve this problem, there's no way of exploring europa without leaving pieces of our own world behind.

they can't solve that issue fast enough.

Hmm, if it's meant to explore Europa, then can't they douse it in bleach while it's still in space? That ought to kill everything but leave the metal intact :p

Tyrannosaurus
08-06-09, 20:20
Ganymede is a nice moon, too. If it orbited the sun instead of Jupiter, it would be a planet.

stereopathic
08-06-09, 20:25
Hmm, if it's meant to explore Europa, then can't they douse it in bleach while it's still in space? That ought to kill everything but leave the metal intact :p

i had one professor in college that made me wanna die. maybe they could just hire him to talk at it for a couple of hours. :D

Ganymede is a great moon. maybe we should make planet status something we can vote on. i'd totally vote for it.