Has Lara Croft Changed too much? [Archive]

stereopathic

23-06-09, 00:15

welcome to the forums, Nathan! :wve:

i actually think lara hit her sex symbol peak at the launch of TR3. the promotional shots included plenty of saucy poses. i'm fine with lara being sexy, but irl, women who are educated and confident don't rely on their sexuality to get want they want. they're aware of their own capabilities and they use them to the fullest.

i think CD have done an excellent job of toning down the raciness of her public image and putting the focus on her abilities. they've dumped the coy innuendo, reduced the absurd breast size and, to me, her outfits seem much more functional than the old leotard-and-shorts--especially the version with her hips showing above the waistline of her shorts.

however, CD did bring us evening lara and with it some robust cleavage, but, imho, it fit the situation of the formal-dress cocktail party.

of course, the reviews still wax on about her being a sex symbol and comment liberally on her ass and chest, but that's not CD's fault. that's just the immature minds of some of the people who play video games for a living.

-!Nathan!-

23-06-09, 00:17

Thank you for the welcome :)

Yeah I suppose it is immature peoples minds. i have to admit everyone loves her legendary clevage but i still think it was played on too much. and i think her clothes have gotten dull. I normally photoshop them to be the original colours :D

stereopathic

23-06-09, 00:18

whenever i unlock the classic outfit, i always use that one instead of the new ones. it just looks like lara to me. :)

-!Nathan!-

23-06-09, 00:21

Yeah, well tbh i gave up on the new games ever since it came out on ps2, i found it rather dire. and i think her image has slowly changed in places where i rather it didnt e.g shes lost her classic long Plait.

stereopathic

23-06-09, 00:22

yeah, she lost the braid and i've heard a lot of people mention how she's lost her killer instinct. they want less of the whiny CD lara and more of the cold-as-ice Core lara. personally i like them both for different reasons but they for sure seem like different people to me.

-!Nathan!-

23-06-09, 00:24

Yeah, before Lara was a woman with a plan and nothing would get in her way, now i find she is too logical and i also didnt like the addition of the 2 helpers shes calls her friends. I preferred th butler and locking him in the freezer. P.s (was i the only one who named him jeeves?)

stereopathic

23-06-09, 00:29

haha! i actually heard someone else call him jeeves once. not sure where y'all got that. :D yeah, the old lara was a force of nature. she'd level the better part of a small country to get what she wanted.

speaking of the butler (winston), you mentioned locking him in the freezer. wasn't that the best? the new manor is so serious. the old one had fish tanks you could swim in and race tracks and the trophy room. the new one seems boring by comparison.

-!Nathan!-

23-06-09, 00:31

Yeah The new one bores me. Oh and the freezer would keep me happy for hours when i was a kid. But Yeah there was nothing better than hitting the stereo on, diving in the pool, diving from the stairs and trying to tun through the maze as fast as you can. I still own 1,2 and 3 sadly i did not like 4 :(

Shark_Blade

23-06-09, 03:04

CD & Eidos are desperate to sell their games. They couldn't compete technologically so they go with 'sex sells' theme.

Yeah The new one bores me.Couldn't agree more with you. Well that's what happens when you milk a franchise excessively every year without proper planning/thinking. They should think outside the box and be unique again to be on top. First step for that imo is give intricate and complex level designs, badass Lara attitude again and wear clothing that is sensible and not cheap looking.

BorntoRun

26-06-09, 06:17

Oh, yes of course.

The Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 1 was a hardcore badass.

The Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 3 was a hardcore badass sex symbol.

The Lara Croft in the newer games is a Playboy Bunny.

daventry

26-06-09, 08:09

Oh, yes of course.

The Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 1 was a hardcore badass.
http://www.laracroft.tv/images/tr1/tr1-002.jpg
The Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 3 was a hardcore badass sex symbol.
http://www.laracroft.tv/images/tr3/tr3-036.jpg
The Lara Croft in the newer games is a Playboy Bunny.
http://i35.tinypic.com/14v3341.jpgTheres Truly No Respect for Lara today, we forget upon the Game and focus more on how Naked she can be. :confused:

telcontar

26-06-09, 12:22

Dennis's Mom

26-06-09, 13:02

^Funny how people photoshop the new model of Lara to make her look naked while completely ignoring the fact that she wore revealling outfits from the very beginning (older games).

Also, I noticed when someone outside of this forum makes fun of Lara's over the top sexyness they use images from the old Core games...

I'm sorry, what revealing outfits did Lara wear in the first two games? Shorts and a tank top are staples of women's wear, so be careful unless you want to paint every woman who wears them as an exhibitionist dying to get boys to look at her. Believe it or not, we often wear them because they're appropriate for our activity or the weather.

The "Core images" to which you refer did not appear in any games. What Lara does in her free time is her business, but in the Core games, she was all business.

Megalith

26-06-09, 13:30

Yes,Lara changed too much but its only natural because the game has also changed beyond recognition too.
For good or for worse there is no relation at all between the classics and the last 3 games except for the Tomb Raider title itself.

Core Lara fitted the design of Core's vision of a Tomb Raider game perfectly both in terms of looks and character.
Crystal's version of Lara also fits their vision of a Tomb Raider game perfectly both in terms of looks and character.It just happens that it's a vision that many old fans (including myself) don't agree with.

TRhalloween

26-06-09, 13:57

^^^ In Tomb Raider 2 she wore a little robe thing.

When people think of the over sexuality of Lara, they'll think of her giant breasts from 1-6.

I don't know what you mean when you're referring to her 'g-string' and her 'skin-tight' clothes but it was quite daring for CD to put that wetsuit in the game. I think it was the first time her butt was shown like that but where's the rule that says she shouldn't wear clothes that show her off there?
The reason she wore a swimsuit in Legend is because she had a swimming pool. You couldn't wear it in any actual level. I don't understand why people are so outraged by revealing outfits.

Her clothes weren't even that revealing anyway. Minus the swimsuit she had her standard Underworld outfit, her full body swimsuit (it was skintight but what else is she going to wear underwater?), her jacketed manor clothes and her 2 jackets.

BorntoRun

26-06-09, 14:31

I'm okay with Lara being a sexy woman. More power to her. But in Tomb Raider 1 and 2, she was more intense and a girl that people could admire a la a superhero. But the version of Lara in Anniversary is a big-boobed bimbo without any personality. I did enjoy Anniversary, but she's nothing like Lara.

Lara can be sexy, but she's also a lower-voiced hardcore mothereffer with a bad attitude and the intelligence to back it up. What happened to her? Remember the pot shot at the VERY end of TR II? That was clever. It's that attitude that has been severely lost in the console transition.

Dennis's Mom

26-06-09, 14:36

When people think of the over sexuality of Lara, they'll think of her giant breasts from 1-6.

That's not really Lara's fault, though, is it? She still wore "normal" clothes available for purchase in almost any store. It's not like she was trying to draw attention to them. I'm sure someone will point out how "skin tight" her clothing was, but I think that's more a projection than anything. They fit suitably for someone doing what Lara does. Loose clothing would be a nightmare for an athlete, plus "folds and gathers" in PS1 graphics generally made characters look bulky and blocky.

. . . it was quite daring for CD to put that wetsuit in the game. I think it was the first time her butt was shown like that but where's the rule that says she shouldn't wear clothes that show her off there?
The reason she wore a swimsuit in Legend is because she had a swimming pool. You couldn't wear it in any actual level. I don't understand why people are so outraged by revealing outfits.

When the outfits are revealing at the expense of Lara's professionalism, I am outraged. Any outfit that requires Extraordinary Feats of Programming to stay in place send the wrong message for Lara. Lara's outfits may be attractive, they may be unique, but they must never sacrifice functionality in order to provide eye candy. If I'm cringing at the screen, waiting for something to pop out, it's not the correct outfit for Lara to wear. Outfits like that make Lara look stupid.

I agree with you about the bulk of TRU's outfits being appropriate. I really liked Jungle Heavy. I couldn't care less what outfits are included as "extras."

Registered

26-06-09, 14:48

I think she has the best view at the Underworld and ı hope she is not going to be changed at the coming games..

Gravastars

26-06-09, 15:02

It's creepy how some of you talk about Lara like she's a real person.

**LARA LOVER**

26-06-09, 16:35

Ok well I don't mean to sound like a complete a hole, but I am just kind of sick of everyone complaining about CD's Lara! :hea: She has changed but she has always has been viewed as a sex symbol, its nothing new and I think CD actually toned down her sex appeal a bit. Personally I like what CD have done to the series and Lara. I think she really is just an updated version of the old classic Lara, except now she seems to be more real because of her emotions. And its not like I am a new fan who has only played CD's games I have always loved Lara. I love Core's and CD's games but past is the past and Core is out of the picture so get over it! :o

January_Snow*

26-06-09, 16:46

When I read stuff like this I just ask myself Wtf??? Is there a girl here who never wore a g-string? What do you wear to the pool? Do you go swiming in your winter jacket??? And pleas stop the crying how "Crystal made Lara a sex object", but ofcourse youre beloved Core didnt think of sex when they put those large triangular boobs on the first Lara, nor did they think of sex when they made all those pics of Lara naked with a pillow, Lara naked wraped with sheets, ofcourse they didnt they are Core whay would they do that??? :vlol: :vlol: :vlol:

Lara Fan 4Life

26-06-09, 18:13

^What you said was spot on! :tmb: Lara became a sex symbol way before Crystal took over Tomb Raider. Everyone seems to blame them, just because they hate their games and what they have done to Lara. To them people, they believe that Core can’t do now wrong when they were in control over TR. I beg to differ, as they have released some semi naked photos of Lara to promote most of their games. Everyone thinks that Crystal has made Lara a sex symbol, just because they made a bonus outfit of her in a bikini. You don't have to wear to bikini and anyways, you can only play it in the manor, and they also didn't release renders of her wearing to bikini to sell the game, did they? Sorry, but Lara has become a sex symbol a long time ago and I don't blame Crystal, as they have made their outfits as extras, like the bikini, but the wetsuit in Underworld did bother me, but I've seen worst pictures of Lara by Core.

Dennis's Mom

26-06-09, 18:25

We are discussing two entirely different things. Please try to pay attention and keep up.

No one has ever disputed that Lara was a sex symbol. There is a difference, however, between being sexy and wearing clothing to suggest sex. The former is the product of personal qualities including, but far from being limited to, physical appearance. Anyone can do the latter.

While there may have been suggestive marketing images of Lara released during the Core days, when she raided tombs at least she was dressed in clothing that didn't threaten a Wardrobe Malfunction.

Smart, sexy women take their activities into account when they dress.

Lara Fan 4Life

26-06-09, 18:29

We are discussing two entirely different things. Please try to pay attention and keep up.
Talking about me? I was replaying to what January_Snow* said. :ohn:

pneboy

26-06-09, 18:47

all i can say is that, sex sells

BorntoRun

26-06-09, 19:09

all i can say is that, sex sells

It DID, anyway...

TR hasn't exactly been big since part Revelation.

EDIT:

I think CD actually toned down her sex appeal a bit.

You mean with her skin-tight leather jacket that's two sizes two small? :P

Ward Dragon

26-06-09, 19:16

I don't really care about promotional materials since they aren't a part of the game. It's the in-game stuff which matters to me. Unfortunately the Legend dress and the Underworld wetsuit were mandatory outfits that I had to see for several hours while playing the games. I think they were both really ugly and poorly designed for what Lara was doing. The dress looked like it was barely hanging on plus her breasts were unnaturally stiff and fake-looking (if they had the usual bounce from the rest of her outfits, they'd pop out of the dress XD). The wetsuit exposed too much of her butt, and combined with the camera constantly getting stuck a few inches away from her bare bottom, I couldn't take the game seriously until it stopped doing that to me. Yeah, yeah, Lara's sexy and all that, but I don't want to constantly see her T&A while trying to play the game. The outfit selection screen in Underworld was a great idea, but they should have included it in the Med level as well since that wetsuit was the only outfit in the game that I hated (I also did not like the bonus bikinis from the DLC but those were purely optional so I don't care about them).

telcontar

27-06-09, 02:04

Ward Dragon

27-06-09, 02:10

It was a wetsuit.

It's a game. I don't need the damned camera zooming in on her naked ass every few minutes. It's just not something I enjoy looking at. I don't care if they have that option for people who like it as long as I get an option I like (mainly if I had been able to wear the drysuit in the Med I would have been happy)

Lost_Soul

27-06-09, 16:10

chocolate.girl

27-06-09, 22:46

Yes, that was kinda disgusting. That's why I didn't like the swimming part in the first level. She also wore revealing clothes in TR 1-5 but the graphic was worse so it wasn't so annoying.

aussie500

28-06-09, 02:58

^Agreed.
It's like Crystal assumes everyone wants to stare at her ass. It's especially annoying when crawling through places...I once got stuck in a crawl space for minutes, and I couldn't find my way out because all I could see was her naked ass.
So either make the outfits practical, or give us a choice in what to wear.

Considering we spent 5 games looking at Lara'a behind most of the time your opinion seems a bit biased. The Crystal Dynamics Lara does not crawl, she walks crouched down, and the camera is usually pulled that far back it is the environment rather than Lara the player would be watching, unlike in the Core games. In enclosed spaces even the camera does not stick to Lara's butt like the Core Design one did.

And for those complaining about the wetsuit, it is just normal attire, it was not even a high cut one which many women wear. Most diving in warm waters just wear a wetsuit jacket and a bikini, so if they were going for realism it could have been a lot more revealing. :mis:

Squibbly

28-06-09, 04:04

Agreeing with aussie500 for the latest points brought up.

Lara has always been "revealing" and has always had odd camera angles.

Let's look at TR4 for example...

I want Lara to crawl. This is what I get to look at while I'm doing it:

http://i41.tinypic.com/bdvar5.jpg

Here is a common view in in-game cutscenes:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2i08x9z.jpg

When jumping to a ledge:

http://i42.tinypic.com/xelt1s.jpg

And on the topic of strange outfits, or showing her butt for example... look at those shorts!

http://i43.tinypic.com/bjst5.jpg

I've seen tight shorts but that's ridiculous. It's almost as if she's nude.

I LOVE TR4, so I'm not trying to bash it.. I'm just saying that with the new games, as far as "revealing" and "camera angles" go, it's not that different.

When Lara climbs poles in TR4, the camera likes to just zoom RIGHT in on her buns. Hmmm. :S

daventry

28-06-09, 07:48

You should play TRA the Natla Burned Suit, you can see the Butt Line as if she is littery Naked. :confused:

Bellacima

28-06-09, 14:51

Yeah i dont really like the new games at all they shouldve stuck with the one outfit per location she was at.

Gerbil

28-06-09, 15:47

Yeah i dont really like the new games at all they shouldve stuck with the one outfit per location she was at.

Nobody prevents you from keeping that one outfit per location as she was at (and ignoring the other).;)

Dennis's Mom

28-06-09, 16:11

And for those complaining about the wetsuit, it is just normal attire, it was not even a high cut one which many women wear. Most diving in warm waters just wear a wetsuit jacket and a bikini, so if they were going for realism it could have been a lot more revealing.

Thank you for pointing out how grateful I should be that I only had to stare at half of Lara's ass while playing the game. Wow, how very uncharitable of me. Here I was concerned it made Lara look stupid to dive a few hundred feet into the Mediterranean leaving half her body exposed and vulnerable to hypothermia. I guess expecting a woman to look smart in a game was too much. I'm lucky she was wearing anything that even gave a nod to serviceability.

Don't compare what surf boarders and snorkelers wear to what a diver should wear. Just because someone wears it at the beach does not mean it's appropriate dive equipment.

Here's the deal: I didn't like it when it was Core in PS1 graphics. I really don't like it now in next gen graphics. It's infantile. It makes the game a joke.

Ward Dragon

28-06-09, 17:23

Lara has always been "revealing" and has always had odd camera angles.

...

I've seen tight shorts but that's ridiculous. It's almost as if she's nude.

I always chalked that stuff up to crap graphics and bugs with the engine. I expected it to be fixed in the new games, not made worse.

Munin Raven

28-06-09, 18:11

Having returned to TR with Underworld (I skipped Legend, Angel of Darkness, Chronicles & most of Last Revelation) I have found a very pleasing incarnation of Lara. I remember not liking the voice changes and figure changes (heaving bossom & tiny waist) that took hold in TR 2 & 3, but I honestly warmed to the character as depicted in Underworld and have every intention of playing Anniversary.

Given the above, my take on Lara's change will obviously be different to the hardcore fans, but having decided to bite the bullet (so to speak) and ignore my often cynical nature, I grabbed a copy of Underworld upon release and was very pleased with the look of Lara. I can't comment on the transition within the games I haven't played, but in Underworld Lara seemed very much toned down i.e. more mature than I remembered her.

Her voice has found a middle ground that is at once soothing, sensual, and stern. She obviously has to be portrayed as a slightly idolised sex kitten for basic marketing, but even here I was pleasantly surprised by how that is put across in more subtle ways (scuba suit aside). She's lost some of that arrogant one-liner malarky and due to current technology she is able to show far more facial emotion - the furrowed incredulous brow on realising the manor is burning down is a great example. I loved that.

Her figure is more in the realms of realism as far as her lifestyle is concerned so her physicality is no longer so overt to the extent that it's boarderline offensive to gamers - both male and female - that are intelligent or old enough to understand what was going on in terms of marketing back in the day.

As for her character, I'm not sure that any progression has been made - only a refinement. I can't comment about what happened to her in the games I have stated I missed, but in Underworld there is no real suggestion of growth or change. When she comes face to face with that which is partially her mother, she says a few lines as the scene is played out and then it's buisness as usual. It's a common fault with games in general, but with this series I guess I expected a little more because the character of Lara really is half the game when you look at the fan base and how they care.

My guess is I didn't miss much at all in the games I haven't played. Whatever she went through, it doesn't really show in Underworld when you take away a few lines of dialogue. I love the latest incarnation of Lara. She seems slightly older and wiser, but I very much doubt that playing the games I've missed would give me any deeper feeling or understanding because there really isn't that much supposed depth to begin with - there never was. Let's face it, the story arcs are filler crap that have no real effect on our Lara.

I don't give a **** about a lot of superficial "changes" that keep being brought up. The only thing I'm interested in is the change, or supposed growth of her character. I still don't see any real change in Lara's character, but I'm really glad someone made the decision to ditch the oldschool mentality and at least try to make the superficial details be more character informing - even if only on a base level.

I think with this latest incarnation, the character of Lara has matured on a marketing/design/aesthetic level. It was needed. I don't think the ingame character has changed that much... and I'm not talking about ass shots and all that bull****!

Ward Dragon

28-06-09, 18:16

As for her character, I'm not sure that any progression has been made - only a refinement. I can't comment about what happened to her in the games I have stated I missed, but in Underworld there is no real suggestion of growth or change.

The way I saw it, they made Lara extremely weak and immature in Legend and Anniversary and then tried to make her "grow" back into her classic self in Underworld. Since you missed the whole "reboot and rewrite Lara" phase, it only makes sense that you don't see any real change in her personality :) (And she was different in AOD as well, but that has no bearing on the last three games)

But anyway, I like how she was in Underworld (wetsuit aside XD) so I hope they carry that Lara forward to the next game. I didn't like rebooting her for Legend and I don't want another reboot for TR9.

stereopathic

28-06-09, 18:55

Munin Raven

28-06-09, 18:56

...I didn't like rebooting her for Legend and I don't want another reboot for TR9.

That's certainly interesting to hear. I really have no intention of playing Legend and AoD, but this notion of "rebooting" is something I didn't expect. I know the character of Lara took some bad turns as far as the fan base goes, but I never really looked into it. But if Underworld invoked a further reboot, or relapse (I'm thinking some form of return to the original character?), then I see that as a good thing as far as my experiences with Lara played out in the latest game.

I do hope they refine and delve deeper into the current incarnation - even if it screws some of the backstory/history of the series. I would rather have a solid base to expand upon than some half cocked mutation as a background. I can empathise with the current Lara as her character is truely likable and is currently in a position where great things could be done in the future. I just don't want thinkgs to **** up like they did years ago.

tranniversary119

28-06-09, 19:51

I find the argument that Crystal Dynamics Lara is more trashier than the classic Lara is absolutely absurd. Keep in mind the classic games graphics weren't nearly as good as today's graphics so making boobs was different then it was today [the jiggle effect]. I don't find Lara's clothes in the new games trashy at all, they show a little cleavage and yeah her shorts are small. You can also notice the newer renders barely have Lara posing in revealing outfits are acting like a slut. And not to mention how incredibly large her breasts where in the classic games. Crystal even sized down her breasts for Legend.
Classic Renders->
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/artwork/legacy_07.html
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/artwork/legacy_09.html
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/artwork/legacy_19.html
Newer Renders->
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/artwork/legacy_52.html
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/artwork/legacy_61.html
I mean, you can argue that the renders have nothing to do with the game. But in a way they both have used Lara in a sexy way. Core Design did in the renders and Crystal in the game. The main difference is Crystal don't use her sexuality to advertise the game.

Bellacima

28-06-09, 19:55

Nobody prevents you from keeping that one outfit per location as she was at (and ignoring the other).;)

Yes yes i know that haha. But what im saying is there doing a little to much nowaday with lara.

Ward Dragon

28-06-09, 19:58

Core Design did in the renders and Crystal in the game.

That is exactly the problem. With the renders, I just ignore the ones I don't like and it doesn't impact my gaming experience. However, when it becomes a mandatory part of the game, then I have to see the damned thing constantly on screen for however long it takes to win the level. That detracts from my enjoyment of the game.

Munin Raven

28-06-09, 22:56

...the TR3 promotional shots were just plain slutty and the TR4 outfit with the generous cleavage and exposed hips was ridiculous. crystal have never been so audacious...

I'm glad that you mention the “slutty” add' campaigns that followed soon after Core realised they had a genuine hit on their hands. I loved TR1, TR2 and TR3 – even when it was obvious to all and sundry that Core was just milking the franchise (and therefore me, a fan) and working up trashy sexist add's to appeal to young male gamers. Well I was a young male gamer at the time and I found the whole thing insulting towards the end.

But I was a fan, so I stuck with the series through TR3 when the engine was such a blatant cash-cow crock of ****, and I even bought TR4 (but gave up after a few hours). I can understand why so many female gamers are attracted to the series but what I could never understand is why so very few women - or even younger girls - didn't start ranting about the overt marketing of a female character as nothing more than a sexual object. There was a few tiny threads over on the old Eidos boards during the golden years, but that was it. My only reassurance lies in the notion that, back then, the girls were just laughing at the whole publicity part of the franchise and giggling at the boys who fantasised about a video game character. :)

This is not me diverging. In a way I'm glad the media character of Lara has gone through that rubbish early on, so hopefully it's out of the way and over and done with. So, to quote the initial question: Has Lara Croft changed too much? Yes and no.

Within a month of the initial release there was a buzz of gaming reviews in the press and things seemed to go “t*ts up”, if you'll pardon the pun/expression. :o From then on there really wasn't any way back until things hit rock bottom. Core were a business like any other, but they made some bad marketing and game choices and the rest is history. After that, some reinvention seemed to take place which I am only partially aware of, but the need for change was very evident even outside the fan circle.

Lara did change too much as far as her media persona is concerned, but that was some time ago in the early stages of her (ahem) career. To me, she's been fighting to regain her credibility ever since, and it's only with the release of Underworld (yet more change) that she's managed to claw her way back to some sort of even base. At this time I think Lara has gone through just the right amount of change to put her in a solid position to work from in the future. She's got all the teething problems out of the way and those long painful adolescent years are done and dusted. It's prime time, and it would be a real shame if wrong choices were made yet again.

Now where were we? Oh yeah, talking about boobies, butts and outfits! :(

Ward Dragon

28-06-09, 23:11

My only reassurance lies in the notion that, back then, the girls were just laughing at the whole publicity part of the franchise and giggling at the boys who fantasised about a video game character. :)

I actually avoided buying any TR games for quite a few years because of the ad campaign. I figured if Lara's T&A was all the game focused on then I wouldn't be interested in it. When I finally got around to trying out the demos for TR3, I totally changed my mind because the game itself was great and the focus was clearly on exploration and adventure, not what I had previously thought based upon the ads. If the ads had been more clear about what the games were all about, I would have gotten into the series much sooner. I still thought the renders were childish and silly, but it didn't bother me while playing the game because I was so absorbed in exploring the levels that I totally forgot about the stupid ads :p

Munin Raven

28-06-09, 23:27

I actually avoided buying any TR games for quite a few years because of the ad campaign. I figured if Lara's T&A was all the game focused on then I wouldn't be interested in it. When I finally got around to trying out the demos for TR3, I totally changed my mind because the game itself was great and the focus was clearly on exploration and adventure, not what I had previously thought based upon the ads. If the ads had been more clear about what the games were all about, I would have gotten into the series much sooner...

Thank you. My point exactly. When an advertising campaign goes completely out the window and starts to alienate the very audience it's trying so desperately to reach (myself, a young male at the time) then something has gone horribly wrong. That "exploration" and "adventure" (particularly the exploration part) was, I think, a big selling point as far as the climbing gameplay was concerned with regards to the first release. The pure exploration part of the game is one of the reasons why I think the game works so well with a female audience - regardless of the strong female character.

Simochka

30-06-09, 09:33

I'm gay but I love when LAra is sexy in the new games. I can stare at her 24/7
IMO girls with bodies like Lara should wear skin tight clothes.
If I were a girl I would do it and show lots of skin.

And that doesn't prevent a girl from being intelligent. Many people believes that.

I rather play a adventure game where the woman loves what she's doing (TRL-TRU) and not doing it only for hereself or the world.

And about the wetsuit. a wetsuit should be skin tight. That way it will dry faster and be more comfortable.
And the evening dress is great.
It would be worse if she wore this. But I guess the anti sexy people would like it cause her boobs wouldn't look like they wold jump out.
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10665040/Evening_Dress_Evening_Gown_Or_Ball_Gown_Black.jpg

Megalith

30-06-09, 10:43

Core Design did in the renders and Crystal in the game.

Core Design didn't do these renders.They were made by an outside studio commissioned by Eidos.
Things like that don't happen because of an artist's whim who suddenly decided to portray a game character "sexy".
These advertisements end up on millions of publications all over the world and they are the outcome of a carefully planed marketing strategy.

If you want to blame someone for these adverts,blame Eidos not Core.

Munin Raven

30-06-09, 11:10

...If you want to blame someone for these adverts,blame Eidos not Core.

True.

Mokono

30-06-09, 21:07

You may kill me guys, but this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/ff/LaraCroftTombRaiderEvoWUnderw.jpg/800px-LaraCroftTombRaiderEvoWUnderw.jpg

...Is called evolution.

nemetoad

30-06-09, 22:26

Amusing thing I notice: As games progressed in the original series up until Chronicles, Lara's default Blue shirt had a lower and lower cut.

Personality-wise she has changed a lot - In my opinion for the better.

Overall, Core Lara seemed like she was a...well, paradox. On one hand, she was the "strong personality" type that was intimidating, althletic, intelligent, and in many ways greedy, which to me felt like one of her MOST apparent characteristics. The original Lara did hunts for sport, to satisfy her own desire for action and interest. This was also her biggest downfall, after all she is the direct reason why the majority of villains obtained their goals (Natla with the Scion, the dude with the dagger, the doctor with the four artifacts, and finally Seth getting released). To make up for her being the instrument in most people gaining power that no mortal should ever receive, she does have a sense of "justice" that made her take down many games of villains...

Crystal Lara is different in the fact that she has actual emotion and does decide to get help from others more often than Core Lara did. She's still easily used though, but for different reasons. In both Anniversary and Underworld, Natla manipulated Lara into getting artifacts by appealing for her desire to find out what happened to her mother, which is, in my opinion, a bit better reason than "I'm gonna go after this artifact of extreme power because I am BORED!" Crystal Lara also seems to have more of a,well, backstory that's related to why she does tomb raiding.

So in truth? Her personality has changed overall, but not her actual role in history. She's just as easily manipulated in both Core and Crystal games :> which is why I love the Doppleganger's lines in Lara's Shadow.

Oh and as far as Outfits go? Crystal does a better job at being tasteful, I feel. Given, the drysuit should've been an option for all water-oriented levels of Underworld, but other than that they've been pretty good about making Lara wear what's more or less "appropriate" for what she's doing. TR2 had her go into the icey areas with a jacket, but still wearing just shorts. TR3 had her wear more or less just a sports bra for one entire area too. As for why she was so exaggerated in features (See: giant bust of suffocation) in AoD, in-game cinematics and renders is beyond me. I know the original Core designers made her in-game model exaggerated in chest and hips to make people able to realize she is indeed a girl, but to carry those exaggerations even to a PS2 game is sort of "wait, what?" to me. I'm glad Crystal changed her figure. The face though..... I think they should've made it closer to AoD Lara. It's too different really. More real, sure, but not like the original.

Munin Raven

30-06-09, 23:12

..IMO girls with bodies like Lara should wear skin tight clothes. If I were a girl I would do it and show lots of skin....that doesn't prevent a girl from being intelligent. Many people believes that...And about the wetsuit. a wetsuit should be skin tight. That way it will dry faster and be more comfortable...

To me, the point about the wetsuit in TRU is not so much about the “sexy” and more about valuable production time being wasted on superfluous details to please the hardcore fans. Sure, you need to appeal to the regulars, but pampering to their love for minor character details/costume changes/physical gestures etc... which are mostly incidental when it comes to gameplay (that thing that really matters), is holding the series back, and has done so for a long while. How much time was wasted in production getting that “wet-look” lara just right when it would have been far better to concentrate on the big gameplay issues that hold the series back? The wetsuit is appropriate for the location, but the time spent on the wet-look is obviously fan service. Arguing points about realism is just milking that downward pointing "fan" spiral.

TR2: "Hey, I think we should spend more time on updating the engine."
"Screw you, the fans want to see Lara's hair sway in the breeze!" :(

This is not a personal attack on you, Simochka, as there are hundreds of fans that think in the same terms, but the points you chose to raise are the kind that have been holding back the TR series for over a decade. Why should Core or Crystal even bother to spend the time needed to create a decent game engine with current grade physics and character/environment interaction when a good portion of the “fans” are only interested in discussing (in great detail) things like costumes and physical appearance. “Anti sexy people”... what is that? Lara has already spent over a decade wallowing in her “sexy”. Lara is sexy, we know that. Isn't it time she grew up a little and developed a deeper personality, suggestion of real character beyond a stereotype. Her "intelligence" is only implied as a superficial given along with the rest of her character. Things could be so much better.

To some degree the obsessive fans only have themselves to blame for any shortcomings the games have had over the years. Crystal tried to throw in a lot of fan service just to please the superfluous needs of the dedicated Lara fan with the latest release, but that production time could have been used to crank out a better gameplay experience. And the irony is, those same obsessive fans are the first to bemoan the lack of this and that in the latest release. Do we really need another Croft Manor training level? I'm glad the manor burned down in Underworld. I think it was a conscious decision on the part of Crystal to move away from that stagnance. Maybe now the designers can get away from the time/resource sapping nostalgic adherence to fans wishes and concentrate on building a quality engine that is worthy of attention in the near future gaming industry it will have to compete in.

We talk about how we think Lara might have changed too much, or not enough. Maybe we should ask the same of us, the fans?

I'm not a hardcore fan, but I could have been if the franchise didn't rest on it's laurels all those years ago. It's about time a certain portion of the hardcore community took a step back, stopped their snivelling and whining and faced the fact that if they, along with Lara, don't change their attitude and work to embrace current gaming standards by dropping a load of useless baggage, then the series is going to continue to be sub-standard. And how long that will last before the investment dries up is anyones guess.

I know this post is probably going alienate me from a certain proportion of the forum, but I had to say it. :o

nemetoad

30-06-09, 23:20

Well, Underworld did suffer because they did create more or less a new engine for it. Probably shouldn't be as bad for future games if they stick with it, because from the shots I've seen Underworld looks beautiful visually. As far as gameplay goes, they do need to tighten that up...but really, there's only so much you can add in the end.

So really, puzzles would be good :> lotsa puzzles.

Dennis's Mom

01-07-09, 13:51

Crystal Lara is different in the fact that she has actual emotion and does decide to get help from others more often than Core Lara did. She's still easily used though, but for different reasons. In both Anniversary and Underworld, Natla manipulated Lara into getting artifacts by appealing for her desire to find out what happened to her mother, which is, in my opinion, a bit better reason than "I'm gonna go after this artifact of extreme power because I am BORED!" Crystal Lara also seems to have more of a,well, backstory that's related to why she does tomb raiding.

Where in the original games does it say Lara raided tombs due to boredom?

Oh wait, it doesn't ever say why she raided tombs. It was left to the imagination. Sorry yours only came up with "I'm bored."

The problem with Crystal's story is that finding out the truth about her mother's disappearance was Lara's ONLY motivation. It was personal, as you say. There's lots of ways to enjoy ancient cultures that don't involve breaking laws, killing people, and putting your life at risk. Only a person driven by inner demons does that kind of stuff.

And now Lara knows. She and her mother stumbled across an ancient Atlantean travel system and accidentally activated it, leading to her mother's disappearance and death. *brushes dirt off hands* Well, that's done, all tied up in a neat little bow. Now what?

Kinda makes you wish for the old mysterious Lara, doesn't it? ;)

I think there are ways to pull the fat from this fire, but I don't think CD is capable of telling a story that will do so. They'll either A: keep milking the Atlantean tit for a new villain or B: they'll write something ignores the corner they wrote themselves into.

Gerbil

01-07-09, 15:12

No, Lara hasn't changed too much. She changed only in her 'level of humanity'. In the first Core games she was just a dumb girl who hardly ever spoke anything, bu then Core decided she needed a real personality and implemented a higher amount of interaction in Last Revelation and Chronicles (partly already in TR3), a trend which accelerated massively in Angel of Darkness.

She was never a deadpan, cynical and self-oriented *******. In TR1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 she always saved the world and was ready to eliminate any possible threat (Natla, Bartoli, Willard and mostly Seth when she almost died).

The fact that, in the new TRs, she wishes to find about her mother is absolutely natural. Which one of you, who object to it, would act otherwise? The maternal feeling is one of the basic feelings for most living beings. In fact, I consider Lara to be 'cynical and reckless' in Legend and Underworld more than anywhere else as she is ready to open Helheim despite the fact that it could destroy the whole mankind...

Gerbil

01-07-09, 15:15

nemetoad

01-07-09, 16:10

Where in the original games does it say Lara raided tombs due to boredom?

Oh wait, it doesn't ever say why she raided tombs. It was left to the imagination. Sorry yours only came up with "I'm bored."

The problem with Crystal's story is that finding out the truth about her mother's disappearance was Lara's ONLY motivation. It was personal, as you say. There's lots of ways to enjoy ancient cultures that don't involve breaking laws, killing people, and putting your life at risk. Only a person driven by inner demons does that kind of stuff.

And now Lara knows. She and her mother stumbled across an ancient Atlantean travel system and accidentally activated it, leading to her mother's disappearance and death. *brushes dirt off hands* Well, that's done, all tied up in a neat little bow. Now what?

Kinda makes you wish for the old mysterious Lara, doesn't it? ;)

I think there are ways to pull the fat from this fire, but I don't think CD is capable of telling a story that will do so. They'll either A: keep milking the Atlantean tit for a new villain or B: they'll write something ignores the corner they wrote themselves into.

It may have not directly stated in each game why she was seeking various artifacts of immense power and wonder, however her Core Design biography made that clear: For her own entertainment and satisfy her ever-hungry interest in the ancient and difficult to find.
To quote the Tomb Raider manual, "Unable to stand the claustrophobic suffocating atmosphere of upper-British society, she realised that she was only truly alive when she was travelling alone. Over the 8 following years she acquired an intimate knowledge of ancient civilisations across the globe." So, in the end the majority of her adventures do boil down to being bored with life outside them.
Granted, she does have the hero personality and does find more legitimate and solid reasons to persue artifacts in games. She also has the hero personality when it comes to powermongers too, which is also dominant. However she is still just simply a thrill-seeker.
And also, Nothing is stopping CrystalD Lara from going on random adventures for her own thrill-seeking satisfaction either. THat character is still apparent, but not as dominant as in CoreD's Lara. CrystalD Lara was acclaimed to discovering many different ruins prior to Legends, as mentioned in her bio. Thus, she isn't driven to hunt down wonders of the world just because her mother is missing, but for other reasons too. So there's no corner to be buried into.

And finally, where in Underworld or Legends does it say the dias is an Atlantean teleportation system? Oh wait, it doesn't ever say -who- made the dias. It's left to your imagination. I'm sorry that yours comes up with "they're Atlantean!"

Gerbil - Ah, I recently read that actually. They modified it heavily between Anniversary and Underworld if I'm not mistaken though. A remember an article was posted recently about the developers spending a lot of time, energy, and money on the updated engine which probably won't be an issue for the next game.

Ward Dragon

01-07-09, 21:51

The fact that, in the new TRs, she wishes to find about her mother is absolutely natural. Which one of you, who object to it, would act otherwise? The maternal feeling is one of the basic feelings for most living beings.

But why did Crystal choose to create the situation in which Lara's mother was missing and needed to be found? The previous backstory had both of Lara's parents alive and well, and there really didn't seem to be any need to rewrite that and add Lara's mother to Legend's story. The story would have been much better if Lara had instead been trying to find out what happened to Amanda. That way the game would have had more time to expand upon Amanda's story and motivations which I found to be much more interesting. As it is right now, I feel that Legend had too many stories crammed into too little space (Amelia's disappearance, Amanda, King Arthur and the daises). Roughly 1/4 of the game is devoted to cutscenes and that still wasn't enough to do justice to all three story arcs, so instead of one fleshed out story we got three shallow stories. Not to mention how Amelia seemed shoe-horned into Underworld almost as an afterthought when the game focused instead upon Natla and Atlantis rather than tying up the mother story. The mother story really was an unnecessary complication. For Legend/Underworld, it should have been more than enough emotional motivation for Lara to search for her former best friend who mysteriously dodged death and held a grudge for over a decade.

daventry

01-07-09, 22:13

That makes so much sense Ward. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

The Whole Mother thing was just a Waste and wasent needed at all. :confused:

Mytly

01-07-09, 22:28

The mother story really was an unnecessary complication. For Legend/Underworld, it should have been more than enough emotional motivation for Lara to search for her former best friend who mysteriously dodged death and held a grudge for over a decade.
As much as I dislike Amanda, I like the Mommy arc even less - so I agree that if CD needed their Lara to have an emotional reason for her quest, Amanda's death would have been a better motivation.

rr_carroll

01-07-09, 22:46

Sigh - story by committee, no doubt. :(

Mytly

01-07-09, 22:48

^Probably - given how many story arcs intersect and even clash in Legend.

nemetoad

01-07-09, 22:56

I'm still curious why people keep thinking Underworld is about Atlantis - it was never mentioned, which leads to the fact that maybe the Norse were, ya know, not Atlanteans :P

And all things considered, I almost agree that "three story arcs" may be too many in the game. I mean, it seems like each explains a different aspect - Amanda's disappearance explains her bitterness against Lara, Lara's Mother explains why the entire persuit of Excalibur continues overall, and King Arthur's story is a simple explanation placed on the stones and swords. In truth, I feel that King Arthur's story has little to do with anything also, being that it's more or less false overall. After all, there's more than one sword in existance, probably even more.

Ward Dragon

01-07-09, 23:46

I'm still curious why people keep thinking Underworld is about Atlantis - it was never mentioned, which leads to the fact that maybe the Norse were, ya know, not Atlanteans :P

Because Natla was the Queen of Atlantis who was in a coma from the Atlantean age up until modern day and she knew all about the places in Underworld and the technology therein. If the Atlanteans didn't build the structures, then at least they had something to do with it in order for Natla to know about it. I'm guessing that the Atlanteans either built the structures or took them over from an older civilization (or maybe conquered them from a concurrent civilization).

Plus in the TRA intro, the voice-over from Richard Croft says that he believed Atlantis was the foundation for all known civilizations (or something to that effect) and in TRU Natla says she was manipulating him, so it's reasonable to conclude that she planted the idea in his mind.

miss.haggard

02-07-09, 00:12

I find the argument that Crystal Dynamics Lara is more trashier than the classic Lara is absolutely absurd...

... The main difference is Crystal don't use her sexuality to advertise the game.

That is exactly the problem. With the renders, I just ignore the ones I don't like and it doesn't impact my gaming experience. However, when it becomes a mandatory part of the game, then I have to see the damned thing constantly on screen for however long it takes to win the level. That detracts from my enjoyment of the game.

Agreed Ward, whatever they need to do to sell the game is their own business, but when it comes to my game, my play-time, I dont want to see a ridiculously tight, ripped, booby-fied dress for a good length of the game. How on earth is that practical? Did she super glue her tits to the inside of the dress? To be 100% honest, that level ruined the game for me, it was just such a jump from on point to another, and it didn't seem like a TR game.

As for the wetsuit, well, they could have done better, but it wasnt nearly as bad as the evening dress.

nemetoad

02-07-09, 00:53

Because Natla was the Queen of Atlantis who was in a coma from the Atlantean age up until modern day and she knew all about the places in Underworld and the technology therein. If the Atlanteans didn't build the structures, then at least they had something to do with it in order for Natla to know about it. I'm guessing that the Atlanteans either built the structures or took them over from an older civilization (or maybe conquered them from a concurrent civilization).

Plus in the TRA intro, the voice-over from Richard Croft says that he believed Atlantis was the foundation for all known civilizations (or something to that effect) and in TRU Natla says she was manipulating him, so it's reasonable to conclude that she planted the idea in his mind.

That's only one explanation that assumes that the all cultures in history, and their artifacts, originate from Atlantis. Right now, I think it's safe to say only three are directly related- Greek, Incan, and Egyptian. Considering that CrystalD did not include any underworlds from these three cultures in the game, I honestly think it's safer to assume that the underworlds, Thor's equipment, and the Midgard Serpet device belong to a possible rival society to the Atlanteans. I mean, why would the Atlanteans need an army if they were the only ones existing at the time? Not to mention no connections to Greek, Incan, or Egyptian culture were made in the course of Underworld.

And finally, assuming Sir Croft is correct, everything outside the meteor artifacts then could very well be Atlantean then, applying current canon with Core's games.

Dennis's Mom

02-07-09, 14:05

It may have not directly stated in each game why she was seeking various artifacts of immense power and wonder, however her Core Design biography made that clear: For her own entertainment and satisfy her ever-hungry interest in the ancient and difficult to find.
To quote the Tomb Raider manual, "Unable to stand the claustrophobic suffocating atmosphere of upper-British society, she realised that she was only truly alive when she was travelling alone. Over the 8 following years she acquired an intimate knowledge of ancient civilisations across the globe." So, in the end the majority of her adventures do boil down to being bored with life outside them.

I disagree. It is never explicitly stated. You are given clues in a bio from which you can extrapolate whatever you want. There's a huge leap from "living the life of a lady" to what could be termed "criminal sociopath." I think she has deeper demons driving her than boredom. For me, it was to regain the attention of her parents, to make them regret casting her off because she didn't want to fit into their mold. Whether she wanted to "make them pay" by embarrassing them with her activities or whether she wanted their respect for her achievements I could never decide. I think I prefer the latter, if only because it give Lara more depth as a person than a child acting out against her parents. That sort of makes her into an eternal teenager, doesn't it?

And finally, where in Underworld or Legends does it say the dias is an Atlantean teleportation system? Oh wait, it doesn't ever say -who- made the dias. It's left to your imagination. I'm sorry that yours comes up with "they're Atlantean!"

Natla told her it was in the first cutscene in which she appeared. "It's a travel network." I suppose you can argue that perhaps it's the one thing in the games Atlantis wasn't responsible for, but the monomyth theory of Lara's father seems to be right. Every ancient myth we've got is merely a remnant of Atlantis somehow. All those lovely machines were Atlanatean technology left for poor humans to explain with their myths and legends.

DigtalMortcian

02-07-09, 14:17

i actually think lara hit her sex symbol peak at the launch of TR3. the promotional shots included plenty of saucy poses. i'm fine with lara being sexy, but irl, women who are educated and confident don't rely on their sexuality to get want they want. they're aware of their own capabilities and they use them to the fullest.
i think CD have done an excellent job of toning down the raciness of her public image and putting the focus on her abilities. they've dumped the coy innuendo, reduced the absurd breast size and, to me, her outfits seem much more functional than the old leotard-and-shorts--especially the version with her hips showing above the waistline of her shorts.

however, CD did bring us evening lara and with it some robust cleavage, but, imho, it fit the situation of the formal-dress cocktail party.

of course, the reviews still wax on about her being a sex symbol and comment liberally on her ass and chest, but that's not CD's fault. that's just the immature minds of some of the people who play video games for a living.

:yik: WOW, yes yes yes. I couldn't have said it better! I love you :hug:
Hehe, but seriously tho, I remember Toby Gard saying that when TR was "taken out of his hands" he was quite upset to see them turning Lara into a sex symbol. The character they designed in the beginning would never have posed in such provocative photoshoots. And it makes sense, just look at the first concept art of her:
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/96/l_1585d3a26bbf445ead62d3aee23e30e2.jpg

Now does that look like someone who would pose in a string bikini while you take her photos? It's like seeing Snake Plissken or John Rambo posing in stripper underwear for a Playgirl photoshoot! You can't be a tough-as-nails, trained-to-kill, dangerous SEAL/SWAT/Navy/Army commando AND be a girly girl who wears skimpy clothes to get men's attention. Those are complete opposites of a personality. No wonder there's so much controversy over how Lara should act. Some people like the sexed-up playdoll and others like Lara more badass. Personaly I prefer the latter. ;) Bring back the badass Lara!

larasmybish

02-07-09, 14:41

OMG! finally! someone else feels the same way as me! I am also 16, and started playing when i was around 6-7, Tomb Raider was my very first game that i played. and i love it. I agree with you so much. Lara has changed toooo much, I loved the old witty Lara with her braid/plait and her khaki shorts and blue tank top! AGHH it aggravates me so much!! BRING BACK OLD LARA! I recently sent Toby Gard and email.. here is what i said. hopefully you all agree. But It wasn't aimed at him.. it was aimed at CD. I told him that also.

Hi, I'm just sending this email as a long time fan of the Tomb Raider series, and I must say, I don't really like the direction that your taking Lara Croft.
This is not hate mail, just an email letting you know how the fans are feeling, and we are very concerned. The way you have changed Lara is not acceptable to our standards. You must bring back at least a fraction of classic Lara in order for us to truly love the series again. There are a few key things that you have changed that have made me upset, and I know that your just trying to bring her into the new generation, but allot of other fans and I don't like the way she is heading. We want her braid back also the length of her hair, and her side fringe has to go, we all liked it parted in the middle. All these little things that you have changed, it just doesn't feel like Lara anymore. And also another thing, her classic attitude (harsh and witty) and most of all, her classic outfit. Sure it might need updating, but the blue tank top and khaki shorts are some of the many things that made Lara the icon she is today. Also, since your take over on the series we all have noticed that the game has become simplified. Bring back the old control scheme. No auto grab or anything like that. That was one of the other many things that made the Tomb Raider games unique, was how you had to hold the action button to make Lara grab a ledge. Make SQUARE jump again, and CROSS action. Also Lara needs to get back on all fours when she crawls, not just crouches. Please go back and learn a few more things from the classic Tomb Raider games before you start production on a new one. Also another key feature was how Lara draws her pistols. Make TRIANGLE "draw" again, Lara doesn't necessarily need to hold her pistols beside her head when they are drawn. Make it so that when you draw Lara's pistols she just holds them at her sides while she sprints and runs, but while she walks she could maybe hold them beside her head in a stealthy matter and when an enemy comes she will hold them up and point them at the enemy, this also brings be back to the control scheme. Make action "fire" again. so this time around it feels much more like the classics. I was seriously disappointed with Legend, to me it felt like you were trying to create a game adaption of the Tomb Raider movies, seeing as you changed Lara completely and changed her house completely. And adding Zip and Alister was a huge mistake. They were so obnoxious and annoying, and it felt you were trying to make them like the characters "Bryce" and Hillary" from the movie adaptions. You have to remember which one came first. the game, not the movies. This also brings me to Winston. Why have you changed him so significantly? Some of our greatest memories of Tomb Raider were locking the old frumpy, short, farting butler in Lara's freezer, and you have diminished that memory so much. This also brings me to yet again, another concern. Lara's manor. I hope from blowing it up that you will create a new one that was like her classic one from the classic games. No opening and closing doors, no long and useless corridors and hallways. If you decide to make a new manor, which i really hope you do so, make sure Lara can go outside and walk through doors without the little animation movies (or whatever you want to call them) that were in Legend and Anniversaries manor. I mean, where updating technology here, not down grading. In the classic games Lara's mansion was seamless with no loading times, and that was PS1! how can you not do that with this new technology. I mean, just look at games like Grand Theft Auto IV, seamless game time through doors. no load times or little animations. Learn from that. I'm sorry, but it frustrates me how much you have changed a once great series too what it has become today. Please take some of my notes and learn from them, Listen to your fans, not yourselves, because you all obviously don't know what a good Tomb Raider game is.

Sorry of any of this sounded harsh, but you need to listen to us, not ignore us. and I'm sick of it.

nemetoad

02-07-09, 14:49

I disagree. It is never explicitly stated. You are given clues in a bio from which you can extrapolate whatever you want. There's a huge leap from "living the life of a lady" to what could be termed "criminal sociopath." I think she has deeper demons driving her than boredom. For me, it was to regain the attention of her parents, to make them regret casting her off because she didn't want to fit into their mold. Whether she wanted to "make them pay" by embarrassing them with her activities or whether she wanted their respect for her achievements I could never decide. I think I prefer the latter, if only because it give Lara more depth as a person than a child acting out against her parents. That sort of makes her into an eternal teenager, doesn't it?

Natla told her it was in the first cutscene in which she appeared. "It's a travel network." I suppose you can argue that perhaps it's the one thing in the games Atlantis wasn't responsible for, but the monomyth theory of Lara's father seems to be right. Every ancient myth we've got is merely a remnant of Atlantis somehow. All those lovely machines were Atlanatean technology left for poor humans to explain with their myths and legends.

Er, her bio mentions that her parents disowned her for her strong desire of exploring the ancient. So really, trying to get their attention by further persuing it wouldn't make sense. Also, I cannot see either CrystalD or CoreD Lara really be concerned with what her parents think of her. I see it more or less being "following your dreams and what makes you happy" rather than defying or impressing parents.

And once again, Father's theory is just a theory. If the Underworlds were connected to Atlantis, I would've expected Lara to explore Tartarus/Hades/Elysian Fields. Since she instead explored ruins that are not linked to Egyptian,Greek, or Incan design, I think it's safe to assume they are of a different origin. Also, the overall architecture and "army" is different.

Helheim's purpose also sort of defies Atlantean design too. Going off the two rulers that weren't Natla, I doubt the Atlanteans had any desire of ending the world. Natla was the only one obsessed with it. So really, why would the Atlanteans build a doomsday device? I think Helheim either predates Atlantis, was built by a rival civilization that was possibly conquered by Atlantis, or even Natla could have conceived the device in Helheim herself. The teleportation system could very well be Atlantean too, however I still have my doubts of this too since Excaliburs' design does not really match(green glow, more of a black ore than anything) the devices seen made by Atlantis (which would be limited to the Scion and Great Pyramid, so it is sort of limited), it could very well be crafted by someone else. I know you visit ruins in Peru, but I don't recall how they relate to the Incans...

Dennis's Mom

02-07-09, 15:22

Er, her bio mentions that her parents disowned her for her strong desire of exploring the ancient. So really, trying to get their attention by further persuing it wouldn't make sense. Also, I cannot see either CrystalD or CoreD Lara really be concerned with what her parents think of her. I see it more or less being "following your dreams and what makes you happy" rather than defying or impressing parents.
These are things that gamers assign to Lara themselves. We each see what we want to see, what makes Lara make "sense." I have a hard time with a Lara who "follows her dreams" into criminal activity. *shrugs* But the beauty of the Core games was that we never saw the private Lara really. We didn't know how she spent her "down time." She was an enigma.
And once again, Father's theory is just a theory. If the Underworlds were connected to Atlantis, I would've expected Lara to explore Tartarus/Hades/Elysian Fields. Since she instead explored ruins that are not linked to Egyptian,Greek, or Incan design, I think it's safe to assume they are of a different origin. Also, the overall architecture and "army" is different.
Well, this is a short CD game after all. LOL She can't go everywhere she might have in an old game of twenty levels. Myself, I see the Atlanteans rising to power on the backs of the cultures that existed, rather than enforcing their own. This would explain the variations.

Ultimately, it's just a video game whose creation has passed through many hands. Continuity suffers greatly and plot holes abound. However, Lara does know what happened to her mother, which does create questions for future adventures. Her lifelong search has ended. Now what?

nemetoad

02-07-09, 15:30

Just the same old like before I'd say - She didn't go after Big Foot to find her mother afterall :P

Oh and I just noticed some screenshots of Helheim. Nevermind, it could very well be Atlantean :<

Dennis's Mom

02-07-09, 20:08

Maybe Bigfoot was just a side discovery during her Northwest American Adventure. Legend has it the Chinook Indians possessed an artifact that allowed them to visit the Creator Spirit in another world. *makes eerie woo-woo noises*

Hey, if CD can make this up as they go along, so can I. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/LisaB1138/smilies/5.gif

nemetoad

02-07-09, 20:25

Indeed. Also, her expedition with Amanda in Peru was unrelated to searching for her mother. It later popped that it was connected, sure, but I doubt she knew to begin with :P

Dennis's Mom

02-07-09, 20:29

Indeed. Also, her expedition with Amanda in Peru was unrelated to searching for her mother. It later popped that it was connected, sure, but I doubt she knew to begin with :P

I got the impression she was in school, therefore it was not "her" project to being with?

nemetoad

02-07-09, 20:37

Touche. *shrug* Still, not everything was about family. Afterall, Anniversary bio mentions her having found 16 archeological locations and whatnot. Not to mention the apparent past with dealing with Yakuza...

Still, it's not an issue in the end :D No corner that's been backed into. Just a story that's ended and now a new one will start.

Ward Dragon

03-07-09, 02:14

Oh and I just noticed some screenshots of Helheim. Nevermind, it could very well be Atlantean :<

Ah, now you see? :D The architecture reminded me of the TRA Atlantis levels (different color scheme but same style). Plus at the end of TRA Natla says, "This was one remnant of Atlantis. I will find another!" Then the next time we see Natla, she tells Lara to go to a level in Thailand called "Remnants" and then we find out that she's after Helheim to fulfill whatever quest she started back before Tihocan and Qualopec imprisoned her. I didn't notice whether or not Atlantis was actually mentioned (aside from Lara referring to Natla as a "pet Atlantean God") but I thought it was definitely connected.

If TRA had never happened then I probably wouldn't have jumped to that conclusion, but everything in TRA set up TRU to have Atlantis in it and then the ruins in TRU did look Atlantean plus Natla was involved, so that's why a lot of people think that the Norse ruins are Atlantean in origin :)

nemetoad

03-07-09, 03:10

Ward Dragon

03-07-09, 03:31

Hm, I don't think completely though. If anything, I think Atlanteans built on top of what already existing. I mean, look at the exterior: Stone faces of giant decorated norse figures. Compare this to..... The Great Pyramid, for example. It's a very noticable difference.

I thought the idea was that these ancient civilizations found remnants of Atlantis and then built on top of that foundation with their own cultural icons. I take it you have the opposite idea, that Atlantis found these cultures and absorbed them?

Then compare the variety of non-red glowing architecture to that which reminds you of Atlantis and you can see still more differences.

The color difference could simply be ascribed to different power sources. The Great Pyramid complex has a lot of flowing lava so maybe they've got a geothermal thing going on using the lava's heat for energy. On the other hand, the TRU structures are covered in blue Eitr and are probably using that for energy, especially considering how the Doppelganger turns the machine on in Lara's Shadow.

The Thralls are very different from the Atlantean creatures as well.

I disagree. The thralls and the Atlantean creatures are rather similar in how they act. The main difference is that the thralls are animated corpses while the Atlantean creatures appear to be improperly cloned (or at least not finished by the time Lara gets there).

Additionally, both complexes are capable of producing a Doppelganger of Lara. The Great Pyramid makes one which is also incomplete like the other Atlantean creatures in that game. Then later on Natla uses a facility in or near Helheim to create the Doppelganger from TRU (this is explained in Lara's Shadow). The technology seems very similar if not the same. The TRU Doppelganger also responds to the command word for thralls, linking the thralls to the Atlantean creations in my mind.

And finally, The exterior of Helheim looks like it was above waterlevel at one point. This would not make sense if it was built by the Atlanteans to begin with, for that would mean that their doomsday device that's meant to pound open the cracks on Earth's plates would...not do anything at all. I think Atlantis built some stuff there post-sinkage if anything.

I never thought that it was above water level at one point. The whole building seems to be built to withstand the water pressure and keep air inside. If it had been built above water and then unintentionally sunken, the interior most likely would have been flooded. There had to be something in place to keep the water out.

Edit: Lara mentions that there must be part of the structure exposed to the air for Natla to fly into and get there ahead of her (I think this was in the Journal rather than a cutscene). If the structure has such an opening, then the air inside could have easily escaped. There wouldn't be enough air pressure to fight the water pressure and keep the water out. Even after Lara opened the doors, the place didn't flood. That's why I think that the builders knew the building would be under water and must have taken measures to prevent it from flooding. I also don't think that the entire air-filled part of the building is above the surface of the water because it is so large that it would have been discovered already.

larasmybish

03-07-09, 04:21

Ah, now you see? :D The architecture reminded me of the TRA Atlantis levels (different color scheme but same style). Plus at the end of TRA Natla says, "This was one remnant of Atlantis. I will find another!" Then the next time we see Natla, she tells Lara to go to a level in Thailand called "Remnants" and then we find out that she's after Helheim to fulfill whatever quest she started back before Tihocan and Qualopec imprisoned her. I didn't notice whether or not Atlantis was actually mentioned (aside from Lara referring to Natla as a "pet Atlantean God") but I thought it was definitely connected.

If TRA had never happened then I probably wouldn't have jumped to that conclusion, but everything in TRA set up TRU to have Atlantis in it and then the ruins in TRU did look Atlantean plus Natla was involved, so that's why a lot of people think that the Norse ruins are Atlantean in origin :)

I'm thinking thats called "lazy level designers cant be bothered to think of new schemes and texture styles for a new game." more or less, I don't think that they are related...

nemetoad

03-07-09, 04:27

Mayhap, but what would explain this? http://www.tombraiderwiki.com/images/0/05/HelheimDrawbridge.jpg It appears to be a highway leading to the main structure itself. Also note: It is still very different from the Great Pyramid's exterior. It's completely stone, rather than a mix of metal and "energy" veins.

Yet to see much in Lara's Shadow, but I do agree that Eitr is a major powersource in Underworld, in contrast to the Lava source in Anniversary. Let's play devil's advocate though: what if Atlantis' design is based off this concept? It could explain that similarity just as much as the other way around. Honestly, it's so vague that your imagination can go either way :D

And I believe a combined theory: Assuming Helheim was once on the surface, perhaps being the very "Avalon" of myth, that would date its ruins, and those that were built by the same architects, to be prior to that of Pangea splitting. It also means the Ragnarok device was not built yet, since it would be useless above ground. And since Atlantis is in most cases considered to be on an island rather than a continent, as most mythology I've seen refers to it as, I would assume Atlantis was post- formation of the continents. Considering the destruction that would occur from landmasses shifting in location, I think it's safe to assume that Helheim, amongst the other ruins, could very well have been sunk into the ocean by this occurance. Also, the culture that found them could very well have been left in shambles by the split too.

Fast Forword a little bit and you get to Atlantis: flourishing, not to mention expanding. Being credited to being the founders of many cultures that are both spread out and very different, they can be assumed to be great explorers as well as great scientists/researchers/whatever. On their travels, they could have discovered the sunken Helheim. "Tomb Raiders" of their own generation could have discovered it, I don't know. Many explanations can add up to it. Well anyways, eventually they discover the location of Helheim being at a major crack in the tectonic plates. Enter Bat-crazy, armageddon-obsessed Natla. In secret, she could have started building the device located in Helheim. Her brothers find out eventually, forcing her to act quick and messily. Enter TRA's backstory of her using the Scion in some way to deal with her Brothers. One gets maimed in the fiasco and somehow the device leads to the destruction of Atlantis. When her brothers start trying to move on and pick up the pieces, one probably closed up the gates to Helheim so that it could not be easily accessed. The "Thor's hammer is needed!" lock could have existed prior, being broken beforehand by the Atlanteans. The last piece is moving the pieces needed to enter Helheim back into their original resting places, the ruins acrossed the world.

That's...I guess my theory for now. I think Atlantis is the birthmother of Incan, Egyptian, and Greek cultures, but that's it really. From there you get most the ones that populate history, minus Japanese and Chinese which have very little common with the ones seen in Anniversary and Tomb Raider 1. The Norse culture and history though I would imagine existed prior, simply because of them being underwater, being sunken below other ruins, etc.

Ward Dragon

03-07-09, 05:14

That's a very interesting theory :tmb: I hadn't really thought about the drawbridge before but that's a good point. I don't know why there would be a drawbridge there if the building had always been meant to be underwater. At the same time, I still don't understand what the point of the building would be if it wasn't what Natla said, which kind of requires it to be underwater :p

But anyway I guess it could go either way since the game didn't give any solid evidence to say how Atlantis figured into it. I'm still caught up on the Doppelganger link, though.

Natla used both complexes to make Doppelgangers, and at least the TRU Doppelganger acted like a thrall, so I'm thinking that the Eitr might be Atlantean in origin. We know that Atlantis made creatures like the ones in TR1/TRA (they can be seen in the cutscene of Natla's imprisonment and they appear to be serving Tihocan and Qualopec, so it wasn't just Natla who made such creatures). In TR1/TRA, many of the creatures are wrapped in bandages like mummies, so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to think that they were animated corpses or at least revived from a death-like coma after thousands of years. That sounds a lot like the thralls from TRU.

So I think that Eitr was used in the process of creating the Atlantean armies since the Atlantean warriors have much in common with the thralls. Or perhaps a chemical was used which ended up leaving behind Eitr as a waste product. Maybe the ruins from TRU are the dumping sites where Natla got rid of her medical waste after making the armies during the reign of Atlantis :p

Edit: Actually, that idea doesn't sound half bad. Combining your theory with mine, maybe Natla took over the Norse ruins and set up her factory there to create doppelgangers, warriors, etc. which would be blindly loyal to her. That would explain how the Doppelganger and the thralls have a compulsion to obey the command word since Natla would have built it into her army so they would obey her. She wouldn't care about pollution since no one else knew about that facility anyway, so the Eitr waste products built up as she made her army.

She then used her enslaved warriors to set up the Jormangandr device in preparation for her plans. She intended to cause a world cataclysm which would shake things up and bring about a new age by forcing life to change at a much quicker pace in order to survive. She needed the Scion first since it contained a massive database of Atlantean knowledge which she would want to preserve through the cataclysm (and perhaps she needed it to finish her calculations before putting her plan into motion). But she acted too rashly and maimed Qualopec while trying to get his piece, so Tihocan realized what she was up to and imprisoned her before she could finish her plans.

Then she woke up thousands of years later, realized that Tihocan and Qualopec weren't around to stop her, and so she started up where she left off before. Meanwhile, the Eitr had spread through the ruins of the facilities that Natla had used. The Eitr essentially transformed any animal it touched into a thrall creature susceptible to the command word, kind of like how it forged the Atlantean creations into a loyal army for Natla.