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aktrekker
06-07-09, 04:46
OK, I used the title to get your attention.
I really want to ask a question about game systems, especially the editors, though it also affects the engine.

IF we could get a new game system, what type would you prefer?

I'm not talking about features, like big textures or keletal animation or anything like that. So DO NOT post a wish list of what you would like to see in a new game system. I WILL delete spam :ton:
I'm talking about the basic style of the levels.
For example, TRLE uses a grid system, with fixed-size sectors and dividing the level into rooms.
Some earlier game systems use a draw-your-own sector style, but don't have rooms (which creates limitations).
Then there is the Crysis style that is still grid based, but does away with rooms so you get one large level (what about tombs, bases levels, etc).
Finally, there are the newer games. They use a 3D modeller to create the level, then import it and create collision, etc.

There can be variations or combinations of these basic styles, of course. You might not necessarily feel that one style would be enough.

I know some members have posted in the past that they prefer the grid system, as it is quick and simple to use. I have heard others wish for the 3D modelling style just for a more detailed look.
So I am curious. If we could design our own game engine and editor, which style would you prefer?

MyRaider4Life
06-07-09, 04:58
I would prefer one where you can have diagonal walls and make smaller squares inside the standard squares, so you can have borders for rooms and make things look better. :D

mudkip25
06-07-09, 05:07
I would prefer one where you can have diagonal walls and make smaller squares inside the standard squares, so you can have borders for rooms and make things look better. :D

Its possible now.
http://www.trsearch.org/Items/3111

I made 'em.

They are meshes though.

Okay, for me. Grid but I would use my geometry objects to give it less of a griddy feeling

snork
06-07-09, 07:08
Some earlier game systems use a draw-your-own sector style, but don't have rooms (which creates limitations).
I would like to understand this. Sorry, I'm pretty much (non-TR) games ignorant.

MyRaider4Life
06-07-09, 08:22
Its possible now.
http://www.trsearch.org/Items/3111

I made 'em.

They are meshes though.

Okay, for me. Grid but I would use my geometry objects to give it less of a griddy feeling

You realise that it gets really annoying when you post them in every thread where someone mentions a diagonal wall. If people will download it then they will.

aktrekker
06-07-09, 09:07
Some earlier game systems use a draw-your-own sector style, but don't have rooms (which creates limitations).I would like to understand this. Sorry, I'm pretty much (non-TR) games ignorant.

Games like Duke Nukem, Doom, Quake, and Unreal use a system where you have no rooms, just a drawing grid. You can draw your own sectors in any size and shape you want. The sectors, when taken together, form the entire level. Without rooms, you can't stack, so there are no "water rooms" or things like that. Water tends to be simulated, usually poorly, and multiple levels using ledges are pretty much impossible. Variable wall sizes also makes texturing more difficult.
Later versions of some of the games were, of course, enhanced, so some of the limitations were removed.

I would prefer one where you can have diagonal walls and make smaller squares inside the standard squares, so you can have borders for rooms and make things look better. :D

I'm not sure which style you are indicating. The WISH LIST :mad: is in the way. :ton:

Titak
06-07-09, 09:16
Two things have my preference: grid and 3D. :D
A grid system would make building level easier I think, 3D modelling would make the levels look a lot better.

I don't really mind the room system in LE, but it is restricting.
And the grid would have to be smaller, something like a half or a third of the LE grid would already make a huge difference in looks.

So I guess I would end up with something in between grid and 3D modelling.
Somethign with the best parts of both worlds. :D

ggctuk
06-07-09, 11:26
I agree with Titak. A combination of grid and 3D would be very good - note also a lot of games have "dynamic" collision nowadays instead of Box Collision that the old Tomb Raider engines use.

Black Thorn
06-07-09, 12:29
I always thought that a great compromise would be creating the environment from scratch with a 3D modeller (wish I could use one well...:rolleyes:) and then making it fit a grid-based collision. Something like what Titak just proposed but in reverse (first 3D, then collision). And yes, she's right, sectors should be way smaller than what we have now.
I think that with the tools we have now, we could already create levels much smoother than before, but the whole process takes a lot of work and effort and isn't either simple or stable (I'm specifically referring to Meta2Tr).

My ideal editor would be a combination of the RoomEditor + Meta2Tr + Metasequoia (or some 3D modeller) with the possibility to switch any time you want between the 3D-mode and the collision-mode...

na_th_an
06-07-09, 12:55
Keep in mind that the gameplay classic TR had is strongly tied to the grid system. If you make a smaller grid or elliminate the grid at all, the "precise jumping" gameplay is gone. I think I talked about this before TRU was out in some discussion about "back to the grid" and stuff.

With a grid, you know exactly if Lara will reach the next platform and which kind of jump you need to achieve that (standing jump, running jump, running jump + grab, etc). At sight, you can measure distance and that is what the jumping gameplay is about in TR, where being fast on deciding whether to do a running jump or a standing jump+grab (for example) is decisive.

If you take away the grid, this instant calculation is gone, so you need "non precise jumping" engine such as Crystal Dynamics' games. With such engines, Lara will reach a platform if the distance is between two fixed values or limits, and the engine calculates the strength of such jump so she always grabs the ledge (if the ledge is within the aforementioned range).

Black Thorn's sollution is the best, IMHO, but making the grid smaller would render the game a pain in the ass to play (think about AOD, it has tank controls which have to work precisely and doesn't have a grid, thus it has situations such as descending the Tomb of Ancients where calculating where Lara will land is a pain). I've always thought of complex level architecture but with boxy collision. You can add some cosmetics to make the grid-based collision layer less obvious.

I've always though in some kind of system where you had some kind of "object textures", I mean, you texture your box faces in the grid system with fully modelled panels instead of plain images. But making such "modelled panels" to tile seamlessly would be quite difficult. If achieved, that would provide a very comfortable way of building next-gen alike environments. I'm talking of something which can't be done with the actual engine, anyways.

Peanut
06-07-09, 14:07
MudKip25 ~ You shouold stop advertising! Its getting annoying!

.........................

I think one that lets you actually design properly, Like You can choose what size grid you want.. Like You can have Small, Big, Large......

So that it actually gives you a little freedom in design.

KyleCroft
06-07-09, 17:20
I would really like it so that the grid was made up of smaller squares. It would allow for MUCH better room geometry.

I would also enjoy a feature that would allow you to create a platform without stacking rooms.

As well, and ability to lets say rase one square floor clicks, press a 'PUSHABLE' button, and it turns that block into a pushable :o OR a universal OCB code that would turn objects into pushables.

ajewers
06-07-09, 18:40
My perfect system would work like this,

First having a grid system, about half current LE sized grid, so you could form the basic shape of the ground and work out simple collision and stuff to keep the playability of the older TR games,

Then a second mode that allows you to edit within the already gridded area like a 3d editor or dividng the gird further so you could work in more detail. The obvious problem being texturing.. Don't know how you'd solve that tbh. How do they do it wil current 3D moddelled games? just lots and lots of small textures?

Peanut
06-07-09, 18:46
Oh, And that in the editor you can over lap textures to make it into one texture, like you can make Snow to ground with two different textures from different texture sets, that you can choose which one is above and which one is bellow.

nowid50
06-07-09, 18:57
Well, I think about a "gridable" system, I think that TRLE is a really good building system. I think it could be really improved with modelable walls.

There would beca grid base but the squares could be splited into another squares allowing smother geometry ;)

Rooms could also become a 3D Space meaning that we could fill any part of the room with matter instead of working with stacked rooms :)

KyleCroft
06-07-09, 19:10
Pushing and pulling the wall geometry would be nice as well.

aktrekker
06-07-09, 21:55
Wow! Almost nobody read the part about not posting a wish list of features!!!
I was just curious which editing style would be the most popular. It looks like the grid-based is at least a part of what everyone would prefer.
Does anyone have experience with any other editors? Maybe this is all people know so it is what they choose.

Hateshinai
06-07-09, 22:10
^^ I think so too

ggctuk
06-07-09, 22:17
I have limited experience with ZeroEditor, which you can model the ground for a map, but anything else is imported as an object. Basically, you can create hills and mountains in ZeroEditor, but if you want houses, ceilings, objects, walls, and anything not like a hill, they count as objects you have to place manually.

just croft
06-07-09, 23:56
I think more options in making walls would be nice, and make it easier to bend a square in two.

But I was just snooping over the TR3 forums and thought that a feature to make a choice of which level (set) to play next would be cool.

Peanut
07-07-09, 00:01
Umm I used Platinum Sand Box.. And Sauerbraten. :)

Sauerbraten is for making FPS's and its free and also its amazing! The Graphics are breathtaking!

And Sandbox is for making an adventure game. :)

Black Thorn
07-07-09, 08:34
My perfect system would work like this,

First having a grid system, about half current LE sized grid, so you could form the basic shape of the ground and work out simple collision and stuff to keep the playability of the older TR games,

Then a second mode that allows you to edit within the already gridded area like a 3d editor or dividng the gird further so you could work in more detail. The obvious problem being texturing.. Don't know how you'd solve that tbh. How do they do it wil current 3D moddelled games? just lots and lots of small textures?
That sounds good. About texturing, I don't even know how Core mustered up the patience to make FIVE games without UVmapping! That's something we would REALLY need in a new game system...

Hateshinai
07-07-09, 10:42
Maybe they had UV mapping for the objects ?
They just didn't use the same tools we're using

Romantics Inc.
07-07-09, 12:48
Two things have my preference: grid and 3D. :D
A grid system would make building level easier I think, 3D modelling would make the levels look a lot better.

I don't really mind the room system in LE, but it is restricting.
And the grid would have to be smaller, something like a half or a third of the LE grid would already make a huge difference in looks.

So I guess I would end up with something in between grid and 3D modelling.
Somethign with the best parts of both worlds. :D

Took the words out of my mouth..

Gandarufu
07-07-09, 15:47
Our prayers have been heard ^^)



Uhm, I`d definately love to have more abilities in modelling. I really love the approach the Unreal Tournament 3 Editor has. It has the basic geometries, like bokes, tubes and spheres... So you could design you level with just that. But at the same time it has really import functions which let you import all your personal stuff.


I would love to have something similar. Maybe a little Terrain-Editor like in Sandbox... The basic geometries, and full support for custom meshes. Then, maybe some nifty tools to control Lara`s movements.


I`m not sure how you guys are doing this in TRU for instance. Like, how do u define where Lara`s able to climb, what ledges she can grab, stuff like that....




So, to sum it up:
I`m for a mixture of both. A gridsystem as basics, but please no more room-sticking any more :tea:

TRF
08-07-09, 20:29
How would i like to see the new Editor.

Well: you start the same as you do now.
You start by building your way throughout this room and raising blocks ect.
Ones this room is finished, you can devide these grids to smaller ones and add geometry.
Use a scale or sculp tool for creating round stones, pillars, beams or even a arch.

When the room is completely finished with the geometry, you need to add objects and "numbers" to it.
Place plants, lamps, paintings or whatever to this room and finish up the building process...

These numbers are there, because Lara needs to know where she can place her feet on "Ledge control" or needs to hang "Shimmy".

Ones your room is completely done: use the texture pad to control your texturing. Pre-made textures (as far as the eye can see) are programmed in a folder and ready to use.
This Texture PAD is a simple small/medium/large "round" tool that you simply use to control the painting. So you basically "PAINT" the textures on the geometry of your levels.

This way you can create better looking, better graphical levels and so on.


As for Lara. We should totaly use the animations from TRL, TRA or TRU.
This way we could use the "Numbers" (explained above) to let lara know this is a Ledge or a Shimmy wall.




Now that would be the PERFECT editor for Tomb Raider: IMHO.
(Maybe we can convince CD to build one for us)

benjamin_2010
08-07-09, 20:56
I just started wondering this:
What if we made Lara and other objects way bigger than they are normally..Then the editor would seem like it would consist of smaller squares.
Still not a new engine, and it would probably just look really funny, but it would mean smaller squares. :)

TRF
08-07-09, 21:13
I just started wondering this:
What if we made Lara and other objects way bigger than they are normally..Then the editor would seem like it would consist of smaller squares.
Still not a new engine, and it would probably just look really funny, but it would mean smaller squares. :)

Sweety: stop wondering...
It's no good for you :vlol:

Anyways: I don't think that will ever happen.
The Editor we have now has to many limits.

We are now limited to create new objects (I believe it was 1000Poligons per Object). That should be WAY more, so that we have a detailed engine and editor...