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IceColdLaraCroft
19-08-09, 02:21
I'm starting this thread over and broadening the scope of the topic. Please do not post something that will derail or spam the thread. This is a serious topic and deserves to be discussed and talked about.

The latest incident involved gay Muslim men in Iraq. Since January 90 men have been killed in Iraq for either being gay or being suspected of being gay. Some of these murders were carried out by their own families as "honour" killings.

From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8204853.stm

Anti-gay attacks on rise in Iraq
Gay Iraqi men are being murdered in what appears to be a co-ordinated campaign involving militia forces, the group Human Rights Watch says.

It says hundreds of gay men have been targeted and killed in Iraq since 2004.

So-called honour killings also account for deaths where families punish their own kin in order to avoid public shame.

The report says members of the Mehdi Army militia group are spearheading the campaign, but police are also accused - even though homosexuality is legal.

Witnesses say vigilante groups break into homes and pick people up in the street, interrogating them to extract the names of other potential victims, before murdering them.

"Murder and torture are no way to enforce morality," said HRW researcher Rasha Moumneh, quoted in the report.

"These killings point to the continuing and lethal failure of Iraq's post-occupation authorities to establish the rule of law and protect their citizens."

In some cases, Human Rights Watch says it was told, Iraqi security forces had actually "colluded and joined in the killing".

Witch-hunt

Recently, posters appeared in Sadr City - a conservative, Shia area of Baghdad - calling on people to watch out for gay men and listing not only their names but also their addresses.

One gay man in Baghdad described the killing campaign as a witch-hunt.

“ These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men ”
Unnamed gay Iraqi man

Nearly 90 gay men have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of January and many more are missing, local gay rights campaigners say.

The report, called They want us exterminated: Murder, Torture, Sexual Orientation and Gender in Iraq, says horrifically mutilated bodies of gay men have been left on rubbish tips.

Sometimes their bodies are daubed with offensive terms such as "pervert", or "puppy" which is a hate word for gay men in Iraq.

The report contains detailed testimonies of a range of brutal treatment of gay Iraqi men.

"We've heard stories confirmed by doctors of men having their anuses glued and then being force-fed laxatives which leads to a very painful death," says Ms Moumneh told the BBC.

'Feminised men'

When questioned in the past, officials in Iraq have condemned the killings, but the BBC's Natalia Antelava in Baghdad reports that gay men there say nothing has been done to protect them.

"These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men," said a gay Iraqi man who did not want to be named.

Mehdi army spokesmen and clerics have condemned what they call the "feminisation" of Iraqi men and have urged the military to take action against them.

The report said many gay men have fled to other countries in the region, despite consensual homosexual activity being illegal there, because the risk of victimisation is reduced.

HRW says the threats and abuses have spread from Baghdad to Kirkuk, Najaf and Basra, although persecution remains concentrated in the capital.

Officials say part of the problem in dealing with the attacks is that victims' relatives seldom if ever provide information to the police.

"They consider talking about the subject worse than the crime itself. This is the nature of our society," ministry spokesman Major General Abdul-Karim Khalaf said.

Chocola teapot
19-08-09, 02:24
Listen Mods, Incase You think about closing this thread, Please understand that Ice cold Is Very passionate about this matter! This thread can be home to some serious Discussion without conflict! :tmb:

ANd thankyou for the clear Information Ice cold!:tmb:

scoopy_loopy
19-08-09, 02:27
:|

Really, thats just disgusting behaviour. I know some people will argue "The culture is completely different over there", but seriously - thats just sick.
My best of luck to all of the gays in Iraq, and other area's where it is still barbarically discriminated against.

takamotosan
19-08-09, 02:30
This is ****ing disgusting. I don't even know how to put into intelligent words how barbaric and sickening this is.
What makes straight religious people that do this so much better than gay people?

scoopy_loopy
19-08-09, 02:33
Alot of the persecutors arent even religious. They simply use it as a convenient excuse. Its hate, fueled by propoganda, fear and yes, religion.

IceColdLaraCroft
19-08-09, 02:34
What's sad is that this is just one example from one religion there are parts of the US and Europe were Christian people beat/mutilate & kill gay men because they use religion to justify their murder.

Some gay men in Iraq have said it was better under Saddam Hussein because there were clubs and bars and it was never "ok" or accepted by and large by society but they were not sought out and killed for being gay or even knowing someone who is gay.

scoopy_loopy
19-08-09, 02:38
I think that had less to do with Saddam and the fact that the militia were on tighter leashes.

What's also quite sad is that if this was women and children being killed, we'd hear all about it in the west. But this? No. Of course not.

takamotosan
19-08-09, 02:38
Why does this sound like the holocaust to me?
This sounds exactly like what the Nazis did to the Jews. Just sayin.

IceColdLaraCroft
19-08-09, 02:47
Why does this sound like the holocaust to me?
This sounds exactly like what the Nazis did to the Jews. Just sayin.

Complete with the West (for the most part) looking away

takamotosan
19-08-09, 02:49
Complete with the West (for the most part) looking away

That's because a good portion agrees with what they're doing.

Chocola teapot
19-08-09, 02:50
It Is terrible to think that all of these people are being killed Because of their sexuality, I wish laws could be changed over there! :(
And Oppinions.

LaraLuvrrr
19-08-09, 02:56
This is appalling. I can't stand violence against innocent people. People who just want to love... :mad:

So how can this be resolved? I mean how can these militia groups be stopped? I can't believe the U.S. would turn their backs to this issue that would just shock me... is that the case?

As for gays having freedom in the Middle East. I'm completely for that. My ideal guy would be Arab :D
There are many things wrong with politics in the Middle East...

amiro1989
19-08-09, 04:29
Oh I just got a déjà vu.

Goose
19-08-09, 06:41
Some gay men in Iraq have said it was better under Saddam Hussein because there were clubs and bars and it was never "ok" or accepted by and large by society but they were not sought out and killed for being gay or even knowing someone who is gay.

I thought we pretty much came to a conclusion of this in the other thread?

The mehdi army are the guys who set up road bombs, they are the guys who kill tribal leaders who give allegiance to the iraqi government, they are the guys that ram VBIED's into coalition check points, they are the guys who behead translators for coalition forces. These are the guys who have sent thousands of our troops home in coffins. In the big picture, 90 gays isnt that much im afraid to say.

To be honest, i dont mean to look down on the fact that almost 100 gays have been killed by them, but every time they set off an IED in a market, 100 iraqis are killed or maimed. This to me, isnt a story that challenges anything. Would have been better to focus on a situation like Iran's.

These are members of the Mahdi Army:
http://www.worldproutassembly.org/mass-graves.jpg

Do they look like they have the best interest of anyone, let alone homosexuals, on there minds?

Cochrane
19-08-09, 07:00
Good point, Goose, but it goes further than just the mehdi army. The report mentions that iraqi security forces turn a blind eye and often even help. Fighting terrorism in general is a good idea, but this is a separate issue that happens the same in more-or-less peaceful areas.

Why does this sound like the holocaust to me?
This sounds exactly like what the Nazis did to the Jews. Just sayin.
You mean 90 dead is just the same as six million dead? Lots of single murders is the same as mass-industrialized genocide? The Holocaust was one of the most, for want of a better word, evil actions in the history of mankind (the only others that come close are the actions of Stalin and, to some degree, Mao). You are entitled to your own opinion, but please be careful (and explain yourself better) when making this comparison. It has been over-used for inadequate situations since the fifties already, and that weakens it a lot and makes it seem incorrect by default if you aren't very clear.

Goose
19-08-09, 07:07
Good point, Goose, but it goes further than just the mehdi army. The report mentions that iraqi security forces turn a blind eye and often even help. Fighting terrorism in general is a good idea, but this is a separate issue that happens the same in more-or-less peaceful areas.


Its not always about the Police agreeing with the actions, infact, one of the last British contractors to be killed for propoganda in Iraq, was kidnapped by about 50 guys with police uniforms and vehicles, the Mahdi Army is well funded by Iran, they either bought the equipment, or actually paid police officers to do it. Some Iraqi police have to turn a blind eye in there own town Shia militia men know them, and there family. Real security heavily relies on the Iraqi army, who are trained to a very good standard in combat, and have been proven. Iraqi soldiers know they can win a fire fight, so when somthing goes down they can get stuck in, the police cant be trusted as much.

Theres nothing stopping local militia men from joining the police, if they join the iraqi army, other recruits there living in close accommodation with will end up seeing there not quite on the same wave length, but Police still go home at night.

aileenwuornos
19-08-09, 07:11
This is so incredibly sad.

But when you consider same-sex attraction is actually ILLEGAL in most of the world, it's just another bit of wood on the never ending fire... of hate.

I would usually say "how could one human do this to another?" but then I think, well, they probably don't recognise homosexuals as human beings anyway.

Makes me so ****ing angry.

tonyme
19-08-09, 07:56
A few people on here have always been wondering about my opinion about gay people and those things, since I'm a Catholic in the middle east and so, I think it's wise to finally post what I think in this thread as I never took part in any of those threads before.

I think it is totally cruel, out of this world and criminal, what's been done in Iraq. If you're killing people because they're gay, you're the one doing the crime, the bad thing, and not them. Some people may say being gay is wrong, it is against nature, or whatever, but I will have to raise the point that this is not a choice, not a choice and again, not a choice and it can't be controlled. It might be avoided, as some people live a straight life even though they are gay, but it's never eliminated and never controlled.

How people say gay people can change is beyond me. And let's say they can change, why should they?

I know some people are gonna agree with me and I know also which people will disagree but I really don't wanna get in the middle of arguments and fights, I just wanted to post what I think.

Cochrane
19-08-09, 08:31
Its not always about the Police agreeing with the actions, infact, one of the last British contractors to be killed for propoganda in Iraq, was kidnapped by about 50 guys with police uniforms and vehicles, the Mahdi Army is well funded by Iran, they either bought the equipment, or actually paid police officers to do it. Some Iraqi police have to turn a blind eye in there own town Shia militia men know them, and there family. Real security heavily relies on the Iraqi army, who are trained to a very good standard in combat, and have been proven. Iraqi soldiers know they can win a fire fight, so when somthing goes down they can get stuck in, the police cant be trusted as much.

Theres nothing stopping local militia men from joining the police, if they join the iraqi army, other recruits there living in close accommodation with will end up seeing there not quite on the same wave length, but Police still go home at night.
Still: From the report, I find it hard to believe that this is just something perpetrated by the people we fight anyway. The hatred of homosexuals, as well as the corruption in the police and security forces, are structural problems that cannot be solved by killing more terrorists.

How people say gay people can change is beyond me. And let's say they can change, why should they?

A very good point! Quite often I hear "being gay is not a choice", as if this was an excuse. I don't think it needs an excuse, though. It's a personal matter between two people.

Goose
19-08-09, 08:35
Still: From the report, I find it hard to believe that this is just something perpetrated by the people we fight anyway. The hatred of homosexuals, as well as the corruption in the police and security forces, are structural problems that cannot be solved by killing more terrorists.


Its being headed, as the report says, by the Mahdi army i wouldnt question that at all, especially from what people have told me at work about operation Telic and Basrah. These guys are hardliners, they punish people for selling alcohol to christian Iraqis, and other small things. Its there idealism aswell, there Iranian imported brand of thinking.

Like i said, would be better for the writer to take a step out of the comfort of reporting on violence in a war zone, and to report on violence against gays in Iran, seeing as Mahdi and Iran are linked.

Legends
19-08-09, 08:45
Not surprising at all. The Middle East and East Asia will make a law against you just for the fun of it. Then they will go pray to Allah every hour for forgiveness. If they only would treat people as they were people and not an aphrodisiacal that needs to be killed.

Goose
19-08-09, 08:47
Not surprising at all. The Middle East and East Asia will make a law against you just for the fun of it. Then they will go pray to Allah every hour for forgiveness. If they only would treat people as they were people and not an aphrodisiacal that needs to be killed.

We were the same in the UK, and the US, burning witches and all that rubbish. Different cultures evolve differently, it took invasions and revolutions to make us what we are today, and i guess the middle east is having theres now.

scoopy_loopy
19-08-09, 09:01
The middle east has been invaded ever since we had the capacity to get there, theyve had just as many revolutions as Europe has aswell. The whole situation over there is completely out of hand. It has nothing to do "evolution of culture", they've been interacting with the west, they know what democratic society values as "good and just" they simply defy this, based on values of a misconstrued religion - if anything, people like this promote the de-evolution of culture.

Cochrane
19-08-09, 09:05
The middle east has been invaded ever since we had the capacity to get there, theyve had just as many revolutions as Europe has aswell. The whole situation over there is completely out of hand. It has nothing to do "evolution of culture", they've been interacting with the west, they know what democratic society values as "good and just" they simply defy this, based on values of a misconstrued religion - if anything, people like this promote the de-evolution of culture.

Working democracies are extremely rare in the middle east (with the exception of Israel, but cultural exchange between them and the rest of the region seems pretty limited). Sure, the people will likely have heard that a democracy is a great idea, but we've done a terrible job at proving it in that region.

scoopy_loopy
19-08-09, 09:08
Thats not what I was trying to say. What I mean by democratic ideals, was the ideals of said democratic area's. Free speach, free religion, gay rights, women rights etc, etc.

Goose
19-08-09, 09:09
The middle east has been invaded ever since we had the capacity to get there, theyve had just as many revolutions as Europe has aswell. The whole situation over there is completely out of hand. It has nothing to do "evolution of culture", they've been interacting with the west, they know what democratic society values as "good and just" they simply defy this, based on values of a misconstrued religion - if anything, people like this promote the de-evolution of culture.

They hav'nt been interacting with the west, thats there problem, Iran interacted with the west before the Islamic revolution, and things were pretty much the same there as they are in the UAE or Saudi, not perfect but a good standard of living for most.

We interact with them, not them with us, it was America who went to Saudi and found oil, it was the UK that went to Iran and found it, its how it works.

Cochrane
19-08-09, 09:12
Thats not what I was trying to say. What I mean by democratic ideals, was the ideals of said democratic area's. Free speach, free religion, gay rights, women rights etc, etc.
Well, when did they ever have those? While invaded by european forces? Hardly. Through the presence of US soldiers? I don't think so.

Not surprising at all. The Middle East and East Asia will make a law against you just for the fun of it. Then they will go pray to Allah every hour for forgiveness. If they only would treat people as they were people and not an aphrodisiacal that needs to be killed.
What a good thing we, in the west, moved past such evil things like having prejudices against entire peoples for their religious beliefs, right?

Goose
19-08-09, 09:16
What a good thing we, in the west, moved past such evil things like having prejudices against entire peoples for their religious beliefs, right?

We moved passed it by destroying our own, i think thats the problem.

In the UK it was the New model army destroying the theocracy and one mans rule.

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 09:53
Why does this sound like the holocaust to me?
This sounds exactly like what the Nazis did to the Jews. Just sayin.No offense but that's a pretty dumb comparison. As Cochrane said, this is 90 innocent people brutally murdered versus what... 6 million? The fact that gays are being murdered in Iraq just because of their sexuality is indeed bad, but it's nothing on the scale on the Holocaust. I hate it when people just compare anything to the Holocaust as if the Holocaust itself wasn't that big. The Holocaust was the mass-murder of millions of people, until something on that scale happens people should stop comparing modern day injustices to it.

And what do you mean, most of the west agrees with it? I think you'll find it's the other way around.

scoopy_loopy
19-08-09, 10:10
Well, when did they ever have those? While invaded by european forces? Hardly. Through the presence of US soldiers? I don't think so.


No need to mount the high horse, reread my post, I never said that they possessed those Ideals. I said that they knew what they were. The people know that people elsewhere live better. Otherwise, they wouldnt be complaining would they?

Legends
19-08-09, 10:33
What a good thing we, in the west, moved past such evil things like having prejudices against entire peoples for their religious beliefs, right?

If only it was a prejudice. If you say anything against them you're a bigot, if you don't, you're a narcissist. And all because of religion? The word they use for politics is religion, and then it's not a prejudice anymore. So yes, it's good we in the west, don't use religion as an excuse to hurt people.

Cochrane
19-08-09, 13:46
No need to mount the high horse, reread my post, I never said that they possessed those Ideals. I said that they knew what they were. The people know that people elsewhere live better. Otherwise, they wouldnt be complaining would they?
That is true. My point, however, is that they are not people who hate our freedoms because their religion tells them to. It is a complex issue, and freedom as we in our western countries think normal has no history there.

If only it was a prejudice. If you say anything against them you're a bigot, if you don't, you're a narcissist. And all because of religion? The word they use for politics is religion, and then it's not a prejudice anymore. So yes, it's good we in the west, don't use religion as an excuse to hurt people.
There is valid criticism to be made, but the sweeping generalizations you make do sound a little prejudiced, if I may say so. If you could go into more detail about specific issues, I guess this would help the conversation.

Dennis's Mom
19-08-09, 14:06
You mean 90 dead is just the same as six million dead? Lots of single murders is the same as mass-industrialized genocide? The Holocaust was one of the most, for want of a better word, evil actions in the history of mankind (the only others that come close are the actions of Stalin and, to some degree, Mao). You are entitled to your own opinion, but please be careful (and explain yourself better) when making this comparison. It has been over-used for inadequate situations since the fifties already, and that weakens it a lot and makes it seem incorrect by default if you aren't very clear.

No offense but that's a pretty dumb comparison. As Cochrane said, this is 90 innocent people brutally murdered versus what... 6 million? The fact that gays are being murdered in Iraq just because of their sexuality is indeed bad, but it's nothing on the scale on the Holocaust. I hate it when people just compare anything to the Holocaust as if the Holocaust itself wasn't that big. The Holocaust was the mass-murder of millions of people, until something on that scale happens people should stop comparing modern day injustices to it.

Um. . . a little history here. Homosexuals were also persecuted by the Nazis. Little pink triangles, concentrations camps, "re-educational" treatments, and of course DEATH . . . .

"...In the SS, today, we still have about one case of homosexuality a month. In a whole year, about eight to ten cases occur in the entire SS. I have now decided upon the following: in each case, these people will naturally be publicly degraded, expelled, and handed over to the courts. Following completion of the punishment imposed by the court, they will be sent, by my order, to a concentration camp, and they will be shot in the concentration camp, while attempting to escape. I will make that known by order to the unit to which the person so infected belonged. Thereby, I hope finally to have done with persons of this type in the SS, and the increasingly healthy blood which we are cultivating for Germany, will be kept pure." Heinrich Himmler

Homosexuals were an affront and a direct threat in a country where increasing the Aryan family size was a patriotic duty. They were victims of the Holocaust. It's not a "comparison", it's what happened. Good estimates of how many homosexuals died during the Holocaust are available, probably because the mindset of those who were trying to bring people to justice felt homosexuality was "wrong." I found numbers of 10,000 to 15,000.

Lemmie
19-08-09, 14:21
That's because a good portion agrees with what they're doing.

Where's your proof for this, that many countries in the West agree with the persecution of homosexuals?

I disagree. One of the reasons that Turkey (one of the few secular countries in the Middle East) is not yet part of the European Union is because of disagreements within the European Union as to Turkey's progress in matters of human rights, with particular attention to the honour killings of both gay men and women who are seen to have disobeyed their husbands or their families are in some areas frequent and accepted.

Even in areas where socially Turkey resembles European countries, honour killings like this do occur. To say that the West does not care about the human rights in other countries is one thing, as IceColdLaraCroft said. To say they agree with these practices is just stupid.

Cochrane
19-08-09, 14:34
Dennis's Mom: The original quote read
Why does this sound like the holocaust to me?
This sounds exactly like what the Nazis did to the Jews. Just sayin.

That is what I was arguing against. Of course you are completely right by pointing out that persecution of homosexuals was another part of the Nazi crimes. It is, however, not identical, both in justification and execution, with the persecution of Jews. If that distinction is made, then the comparison can certainly be valid. It just wasn't here.

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 14:39
Um. . . a little history here. Homosexuals were also persecuted by the Nazis. Little pink triangles, concentrations camps, "re-educational" treatments, and of course DEATH . . . .

"...In the SS, today, we still have about one case of homosexuality a month. In a whole year, about eight to ten cases occur in the entire SS. I have now decided upon the following: in each case, these people will naturally be publicly degraded, expelled, and handed over to the courts. Following completion of the punishment imposed by the court, they will be sent, by my order, to a concentration camp, and they will be shot in the concentration camp, while attempting to escape. I will make that known by order to the unit to which the person so infected belonged. Thereby, I hope finally to have done with persons of this type in the SS, and the increasingly healthy blood which we are cultivating for Germany, will be kept pure." Heinrich Himmler

Homosexuals were an affront and a direct threat in a country where increasing the Aryan family size was a patriotic duty. They were victims of the Holocaust. It's not a "comparison", it's what happened. Good estimates of how many homosexuals died during the Holocaust are available, probably because the mindset of those who were trying to bring people to justice felt homosexuality was "wrong." I found numbers of 10,000 to 15,000.Do you not think we know that? I actually visited a concentration camp in real life with school not long ago, and Cochrane lives in Germany and seems like quite an intelligent chap, so I doubt he was ignorant of this fact either.

I'm well aware that tens of thousands of homosexuals were killed in the Holocaust, which is exactly why this comparison is silly because the atrocities that are being committed in Iraq are on a much smaller scale. There's a far cry between 90 people murdered in 8 months and 15,000 in 10 years. I'm not trying to make the targeting of homosexuals in Iraq look unimportant or unworthy of attention, but drawing up Holocaust comparisons is simply ludicrous.

Besides, takamotosan was referring to the Jews anyway, and we all know how many of them were killed.

kooky
19-08-09, 14:43
I always found it very barbaric, sadistic & immoral to kill or treat anyone like **** because of their orientation, Race, Religion etc. I heard some kids here saying sick stuff like "Wow that's so cool! The USA should execute Gays, Lesbians & Bis as well!"! I'm like what the ****?! Gays/Lesbians/Bi's are people just like you, they deserve to treated equally regardless of orientation, race, religion etc. I hate discrimination... I just wish all people could get along. -_-

Catapharact
19-08-09, 15:28
If only it was a prejudice. If you say anything against them you're a bigot, if you don't, you're a narcissist. And all because of religion? The word they use for politics is religion, and then it's not a prejudice anymore. So yes, it's good we in the west, don't use religion as an excuse to hurt people.

If anything, critisism against the Middle East happens on a regular basis. Its always been the simple case of "You're are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't." If its not the west that's on our tail for not being "democratically" sound, its the Eastern nations like China or Russia telling us that the region doesn't have enough control on things.

IMO, I say we have had enough and we apply the traditional monarchial rule since its been proven that monarchy has been responsible in the past and now to bring in sweeping changes and more moderate laws within the region. Its never been about tyrany with the Monarchy; You can always apporach them and make your view heard. Infact the interaction between the common citizen and the monarch isn't that uncommon.

aileenwuornos
19-08-09, 16:00
Do you not think we know that? I actually visited a concentration camp in real life with school not long ago, and Cochrane lives in Germany and seems like quite an intelligent chap, so I doubt he was ignorant of this fact either.

I'm well aware that tens of thousands of homosexuals were killed in the Holocaust, which is exactly why this comparison is silly because the atrocities that are being committed in Iraq are on a much smaller scale. There's a far cry between 90 people murdered in 8 months and 15,000 in 10 years. I'm not trying to make the targeting of homosexuals in Iraq look unimportant or unworthy of attention, but drawing up Holocaust comparisons is simply ludicrous.

Besides, takamotosan was referring to the Jews anyway, and we all know how many of them were killed.

Godwin's Law.
Any time a human being is murdered for being a human being and making human choices is a god damned travesty.


:(

Dennis's Mom
19-08-09, 16:04
Dennis's Mom: The original quote read


That is what I was arguing against. Of course you are completely right by pointing out that persecution of homosexuals was another part of the Nazi crimes. It is, however, not identical, both in justification and execution, with the persecution of Jews. If that distinction is made, then the comparison can certainly be valid. It just wasn't here.

Do you not think we know that? I actually visited a concentration camp in real life with school not long ago, and Cochrane lives in Germany and seems like quite an intelligent chap, so I doubt he was ignorant of this fact either.

I'm well aware that tens of thousands of homosexuals were killed in the Holocaust, which is exactly why this comparison is silly because the atrocities that are being committed in Iraq are on a much smaller scale. There's a far cry between 90 people murdered in 8 months and 15,000 in 10 years. I'm not trying to make the targeting of homosexuals in Iraq look unimportant or unworthy of attention, but drawing up Holocaust comparisons is simply ludicrous.

Besides, takamotosan was referring to the Jews anyway, and we all know how many of them were killed.

Yes, on such tiny things arguments are won on teh internets. You both knew the Nazis persecuted homosexuals, yet both of you decided to argue against a comparison based on his ignorance (i.e., that he only knew of the Jewish persecution.) "He only said "Jews!" How immature. How typcial of teh internets. I would have had more respect for your reply had you invoked Godwin's Law. This could have been your reply:

"Well, the Nazis did persecute homosexuals also. It's estimated thousands were killed in the death camps. However, due to the Holocaust's overuse as a comparison, and the fact that this doesn't appear to be an actual government policy, I don't think the comparison valid at this time."

See? You correct the assumption, then gently explain why it's not appropriate.

As for only 90 vs. thousands (or millions). It's important to remember that it was "only 90" at some point during the Holocaust. At some point it was only trashing Jewish neighborhoods as making them wear gold stars. It is the complacency, the acceptance that breeds such things as the Holocaust. People always say "never forget" yet when it appears a group is singled out to be brutally discriminated against or killed for merely being who they were born to be, it's inappropriate to mention the Holocaust. I don't think it should be a litmus test of numbers. The point is that it never happens again. That means remembering before it happens again.

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 16:04
Godwin's Law.
Any time a human being is murdered for being a human being and making human choices is a god damned travesty.


:(It wasn't me who brought up the Holocaust in the first place.

Indeed.

Yes, on such tiny things arguments are won on teh internets. You both knew the Nazis persecuted homosexuals, yet both of you decided to argue against a comparison based on his ignorance (i.e., that he only knew of the Jewish persecution.) "He only said "Jews!" How immature. How typcial of teh internets. I would have had more respect for your reply had you invoked Godwin's Law. This could have been your reply:

"Well, the Nazis did persecute homosexuals also. It's estimated thousands were killed in the death camps. However, due to the Holocaust's overuse as a comparison, and the fact that this doesn't appear to be an actual government policy, I don't think the comparison valid at this time."

See? You correct the assumption, then gently explain why it's not appropriate.

As for only 90 vs. thousands (or millions). It's important to remember that it was "only 90" at some point during the Holocaust. At some point it was only trashing Jewish neighborhoods as making them wear gold stars. It is the complacency, the acceptance that breeds such things as the Holocaust. People always say "never forget" yet when it appears a group is singled out to be brutally discriminated against or killed for merely being who they were born to be, it's inappropriate to mention the Holocaust. I don't think it should be a litmus test of numbers. The point is that it never happens again. That means remembering before it happens again....Yeah but the persecution of Homosexuals in Nazi Germany was directed by the government (unfortunately, with efficiency as well) whereas the targeting of homosexuals in Iraq has been carried out by the Mahdi Army. Goose has already explained the difference between the Mahdi Army and the Iraqi government so I don't think I need to explain that. Another difference is that homosexuality among men was always illegal in Nazi Germany while it is not in Iraq.

Nannonxyay
19-08-09, 17:19
It's these kinds of things that make me so upset. It's ****ing sick to kill human beings just because their religion tells them that gays are wrong. :(

I read about two 14-year-old boys who were hung because they were going out. :(

It's just disgusting.

Ward Dragon
19-08-09, 17:25
It's these kinds of things that make me so upset. It's ****ing sick to kill human beings just because their religion tells them that gays are wrong. :(

I'm inclined to think that violent people will find an excuse for their violence regardless of whether it's religion, politics, power, greed, or something else. Religion happens to be the excuse used in this particular case, but they wouldn't follow that particular extreme version of religion if they didn't already want to kill people.

In any case, it's absolutely terrible that people are being murdered :(

Nannonxyay
19-08-09, 17:29
I'm inclined to think that violent people will find an excuse for their violence regardless of whether it's religion, politics, power, greed, or something else. Religion happens to be the excuse used in this particular case, but they wouldn't follow that particular extreme version of religion if they didn't already want to kill people.

In any case, it's absolutely terrible that people are being murdered :(

I'm not blaming religion. I should have worded myself better. They're just using their religion as an excuse to mindlessly kill people for the hell of it.

larafan25
19-08-09, 17:30
This reminds me of that incident...........I can;t think of the name right now but when I remember I will say.......

but some of the thngs they are doing is just plain desturbing(not that any of it isn't ) but some stuff is just cruel.

edit: I think it was the rowanda crysis(spelling?)

Catapharact
19-08-09, 17:33
edit: I think it was the rowanda crysis(spelling?)

Huge difference. The Rawandan genocide was a government backed action to eliminate the Tutsis and moderate Hututs by the Extremist Hututs who were in power. It was an organized effort BACKED by the government at the time. In Iraq, its a band of loony anarcist militamen who are targeting gay men.

takamotosan
19-08-09, 17:40
You mean 90 dead is just the same as six million dead? Lots of single murders is the same as mass-industrialized genocide? The Holocaust was one of the most, for want of a better word, evil actions in the history of mankind (the only others that come close are the actions of Stalin and, to some degree, Mao). You are entitled to your own opinion, but please be careful (and explain yourself better) when making this comparison. It has been over-used for inadequate situations since the fifties already, and that weakens it a lot and makes it seem incorrect by default if you aren't very clear.

I meant the very beginning, when the Nazi's were just getting started. Not towards the end when they had it down and were killing by the thousands each week.
I meant more the mind-set these people are in. It reminds me of neighbors selling out the jews to avoid persecution, and even worse, some people are "punishing" the gays themselves.


Where's your proof for this, that many countries in the West agree with the persecution of homosexuals?


I was talking about America, from personal experience.

Yeah but the persecution of Jews (and homosexuals) in Nazi Germany was state sponsored, if not almost completely carried out by the state. This however, as Cat rightly pointed out, is being carried out by crazy anarchist militias.

They were pressured by the Nazi's to do so.

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 17:43
I meant the very beginning, when the Nazi's were just getting started. Not towards the end when they had it down and were killing by the thousands each week.
I meant more the mind-set these people are in. It reminds me of neighbors selling out the jews to avoid persecution, and even worse, some people are "punishing" the gays themselves.Yeah but the persecution of Jews (and homosexuals) in Nazi Germany was state sponsored, if not almost completely carried out by the state. This however, as Cat rightly pointed out, is being carried out by crazy anarchist militias.

takamotosan
19-08-09, 17:51
TO CLARIFY MY HOLOCAUST COMPARISON:

I know damn good and well that the Holocaust was on a MUCH larger scale, and it was a lot more complicated. I wasn't even using factual information, it was just my own observation.

I'd appreciate it if I weren't called stupid for making an observation.

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 17:59
TO CLARIFY MY HOLOCAUST COMPARISON:

I know damn good and well that the Holocaust was on a MUCH larger scale, and it was a lot more complicated. I wasn't even using factual information, it was just my own observation.

I'd appreciate it if I weren't called stupid for making an observation.Nobody was calling you stupid. I said that I think it's a pretty dumb comparison but that doesn't mean I think you're stupid. Just to clarify, I don't.

I was talking about America, from personal experience.What do you mean? I know America doesn't give homosexuals as many rights compared to some countries like Sweden, Finland, the Netherlands etc (although America still gives homosexuals more rights than most countries in the world), but I wouldn't say a lot of people want to see them persecuted or even executed. I know I don't live in the US so I can only really make assumptions here, but I seriously doubt the majority of your population wants to see homosexuals rounded up and detained in concentration camps.

Ward Dragon
19-08-09, 18:04
I know I don't live in the US so I can only really make assumptions here, but I seriously doubt the majority of your population wants to see homosexuals rounded up and detained in concentration camps.

I really doubt that's the case as well. I don't see gay marriage getting passed anytime soon, but on the other hand anyone who murders a gay person is still prosecuted and convicted of murder here so there's not any real support for murdering gay people.

Cochrane
19-08-09, 18:06
I meant the very beginning, when the Nazi's were just getting started. Not towards the end when they had it down and were killing by the thousands each week.
I meant more the mind-set these people are in. It reminds me of neighbors selling out the jews to avoid persecution, and even worse, some people are "punishing" the gays themselves.
Ah, OK. That clarifies it further, and in that sense, I think you may be right.

Yes, on such tiny things arguments are won on teh internets. You both knew the Nazis persecuted homosexuals, yet both of you decided to argue against a comparison based on his ignorance (i.e., that he only knew of the Jewish persecution.) "He only said "Jews!" How immature. How typcial of teh internets. I would have had more respect for your reply had you invoked Godwin's Law. This could have been your reply:

"Well, the Nazis did persecute homosexuals also. It's estimated thousands were killed in the death camps. However, due to the Holocaust's overuse as a comparison, and the fact that this doesn't appear to be an actual government policy, I don't think the comparison valid at this time."

See? You correct the assumption, then gently explain why it's not appropriate. I think my posts, when taken together, do just that. They were certainly meant to do so, and if they failed, it was for my lack of eloquence and familiarity with the english language, not lack of intention.

Invoking Godwin's Law is more than just citing it. People who make inappropriate Nazi comparisons (the one here has been cleared up, so I'm speaking generally) will probably not have heard of it, because if they knew it and the reasoning behind it, they wouldn't made them in the first place. To me, the rational of why you shouldn't do it is more important.

You seem to be saying that we should be more tolerant towards others and try to see whether they may have a point, and that's a good idea. However, it would be good if you followed this yourself.

As for only 90 vs. thousands (or millions). It's important to remember that it was "only 90" at some point during the Holocaust. At some point it was only trashing Jewish neighborhoods as making them wear gold stars. It is the complacency, the acceptance that breeds such things as the Holocaust. People always say "never forget" yet when it appears a group is singled out to be brutally discriminated against or killed for merely being who they were born to be, it's inappropriate to mention the Holocaust. I don't think it should be a litmus test of numbers. The point is that it never happens again. That means remembering before it happens again.
It also means understanding it and the circumstances. There is no evil dictator in Iraq, at least not in the sense as it was in Germany, whom one should get rid of. Sure, there is an organization, but at least part of the violence seems to come from the fringe parts of society themselves and is based on a long, violent hatred of homosexuals in the region. Antisemitism, was certainly widespread in Europe at the time, but general integration of Jews was far better. Both are horrible events, I don't wish to deny that, but are the measures for combatting them similar enough to make that comparison useful? That is a question that is not easily answered.

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 18:06
I really doubt that's the case as well. I don't see gay marriage getting passed anytime soon, but on the other hand anyone who murders a gay person is still prosecuted and convicted of murder here so there's not any real support for murdering gay people.Indeed. My interpretation is that much of the US is more reluctant to legalize gay marriage than they are to persecute homosexuals.

larafan25
19-08-09, 18:08
Huge difference. The Rawandan genocide was a government backed action to eliminate the Tutsis and moderate Hututs by the Extremist Hututs who were in power. It was an organized effort BACKED by the government at the time. In Iraq, its a band of loony anarcist militamen who are targeting gay men.

they remind me of eachother because they both include mass amount of killing towards people because of differences..........

takamotosan
19-08-09, 18:15
What do you mean? I know America doesn't give homosexuals as many rights compared to some countries like Sweden, Finland, the Netherlands etc (although America still gives homosexuals more rights than most countries in the world), but I wouldn't say a lot of people want to see them persecuted or even executed. I know I don't live in the US so I can only really make assumptions here, but I seriously doubt the majority of your population wants to see homosexuals rounded up and detained in concentration camps.

Lynchings are still popular in some parts of the deep south ;)

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 18:19
Lynchings are still popular in some parts of the deep south ;)Do you honestly think that the majority of people in the deep south advocate that kind of thing? Perhaps the ones that do advocate that are simply the vocal minority.

Cochrane
19-08-09, 18:19
they remind me of eachother because they both include mass amount of killing towards people because of differences..........

Unfortunately, we live in a world where that is not specific enough…

takamotosan
19-08-09, 18:25
Do you honestly think that the majority of people in the deep south advocate that kind of thing? Perhaps the ones that do advocate that are simply the vocal minority.

I wouldn't say the majority, but more people than you'd think. Even in my fairly progressive high school, I still had to pretend that my (now ex) boyfriend wasn't because I'd get harassed for it. And I've been told by several people that I deserved to die for being a "faggot," and these were people in my own school.
These were just the vocal ones. There are plenty more out there that I have just been lucky enough to not run into.

amiro1989
19-08-09, 18:44
Do you honestly think that the majority of people in the deep south advocate that kind of thing? Perhaps the ones that do advocate that are simply the vocal minority.

I have several friends living in the south, and they tell me that homophobia is still running on the treadmill, if you get what I mean, and it's still way too soon to be contained. My sister's boyfriend lived several months in Texas, and told me the same thing.

stereopathic
19-08-09, 18:50
Lynchings are still popular in some parts of the deep south ;)

that's just not true.

I have several friends living in the south, and they tell me that homophobia is still running on the treadmill, if you get what I mean, and it's still way too soon to be contained. My sister's boyfriend lived several months in Texas, and told me the same thing.

in texas there are some extremely tolerant areas and some extremely intolerant. it even varies within each city. hate crimes are rare, but they happen.

also, it's unfair to say it's an exclusively southern mindset. the north is every bit as bigoted as the south and always has been.

takamotosan
19-08-09, 18:52
that's just not true.


The mindset is still there. I can assure you of that.

amiro1989
19-08-09, 18:53
that's just not true.



in texas there are some extremely tolerant areas and some extremely intolerant. it even varies within each city. hate crimes are rare, but they happen.

also, it's unfair to say it's an exclusively southern mindset. the north is every bit as bigoted as the south and always has been.

I've never said the North was all cutsy bitsy. I know there's homophobia pretty much everywhere, I was just pointing at the South, because I have friends living there. :)

Mokono
19-08-09, 18:56
Sorry for my intromision here. The last thing i’d like to start is another flamewar, but i’d just like to clarify few things: Islam itself is not against homosexuality. There exists certain muslims with a huge issue of homophobia, who are also aware how Muslim people has a huge respect for what is supposed to be God’s word. What this homophobes do is construct a justification twisting certain teachings in the Qur'an and over literalizing another ones. After doing so they have another powerful tool to justify their massacres. Again, is not like these people is doing so to make their God happy, so please i’d like to see those comments comfronting Islam and Homosexuality stop. I think those who readed Goose’s posts about the mehdi army can have a wider horizon on what’s really going on. I strongly think that among the number of homosexuals killed there were also another amount of heterosexuals who were conveniently labelled as such to be murdered.

Another thing that really surprises me is that some people think the west is free... Well, i think the west has a very odd performance of freedom. Homosexual liberties being recognized as an apart group isn’t being free at all. If allowing specialized Gay Pubs and Gay Nightclubs is being free and tollerant, then i’m afraid is a big failure... Why? First of all, i’m not against them existing, but i’m against of Heterosexual Pubs and Nightclubs reserving their rights to allow people in. The need for Gay locals is because Heterosexual ones are full of prejudice and this is the main problem. I’d like to be alive to see how we can all get along without separating ourselves more due to differences such as the person we want to love and live with... To say this i’m asuming that homosexuality is founded not only in physical attraction, but also characteristics beyond and deep inside concerning the way we think, our perspectives and our cosmovision.

I’d also like to see if someone can clearify me what’s so different about being gay? There’s not objective way to recognize them alone while walking on a street, unless we see them with their respective couples. We all share the same characteristics, right? What’s this “pride” all about also; i mean, without the intention to bash the parades, that are really picturesque and touristically attractive, they usually picture a reducted group of gay people... Saying this, why is there a need to dance half-naked to be proud of our sexuality? Where are those gay doctors, attorneys, engineers, archaeologists, etc? Wich kind of characters make you more proud of: Alexander the Great or Chris Crocker? What’s better, leaving heated comments on a shirtless pic of a random guy in facebook or having a nice conversation with your mate? Is goint to a gay nightclub to dance and have sex afterwards better than taking your mate to dinner or to see a nice movie?

And the same critic goes to Heterosexuals who found their sexuality in inmediate satisfaction of archaic needs. Being heterosexual is not about the boobs or the bublebutts, is about a man and a woman being together because they love eachothers... We’re no longer animals who need to breed to survive (not in the same extent undeveloped species), but that doesn’t mean sexual intercourse is now a sport or mere fun. The same applies to Homosexuals, since it’s not about sex, but about a man loving a man and a woman loving a woman... Having honest feelings toward other human beings is nothing to be ashamed of, but using certain labels to prove ourselves is kinda inmature. I’m also not trying to satanize sex, but since we were granted with feelings and reason then let’s focus certain responsibilities too.

Retaken what i was saying about the “West”, just think about all those kids sayint “this is gay”, isn’t it the same position performed in a different way? I’m sorry, but is the West the one that settled the parameters that homosexuality is wrong, or odd, or an abomination. We witness this movies, were they picture the “gay guy” “too feminine” and the lesbian woman “too masculine” wich is something superficial that doesn’t aply to all the cases, yet we still point at the middle east everytime we want to criticize something that also happens among us.

stereopathic
19-08-09, 19:00
The mindset is still there. I can assure you of that.

there's plenty of bigotry for everyone, but lynchings don't happen anymore. beating? now that's a different story. uncommon, but happens.

I've never said the North was all cutsy bitsy. I know there's homophobia pretty much everywhere, I was just pointing at the South, because I have friends living there. :)

ok cool. i just want to make sure people know that discrimination isn't a regional issue.

amiro1989
19-08-09, 19:01
Sorry for my intromision here. The last thing i’d like to start is another flamewar, but i’d just like to clarify few things: Islam itself is not against homosexuality. There exists certain muslims with a huge issue of homophobia, who are also aware how Muslim people has a huge respect for what is supposed to be God’s word. What this homophobes do is construct a justification twisting certain teachings in the Qur'an and over literalizing another ones. After doing so they have another powerful tool to justify their massacres. Again, is not like these people is doing so to make their God happy, so please i’d like to see those comments comfronting Islam and Homosexuality stop. I think those who readed Goose’s posts about the mehdi army can have a wider horizon on what’s really going on. I strongly think that among the number of homosexuals killed there were also another amount of heterosexuals who were conveniently labelled as such to be murdered.



I wasn't sure of that, cuz that's a point I always had in mind (whether it was really prohibited by Islam to be homosexual), but I'm happy you confirmed it to me. It's a really important fact to explain to other people.

I don't want Islam to be seen as a pretty much ****ed up religion. I think it's pretty unfair, cuz some of the things it teaches you are very noble, and very good. We tend to stretch things out though....

takamotosan
19-08-09, 19:12
Another thing that really surprises me is that some people think the west is free... Well, i think the west has a very odd performance of freedom. Homosexual liberties being recognized as an apart group isn’t being free at all. If allowing specialized Gay Pubs and Gay Nightclubs is being free and tollerant, then i’m afraid is a big failure... Why? First of all, i’m not against them existing, but i’m against of Heterosexual Pubs and Nightclubs reserving their rights to allow people in. The need for Gay locals is because Heterosexual ones are full of prejudice and this is the main problem. I’d like to be alive to see how we can all get along without separating ourselves more due to differences such as the person we want to love and live with... To say this i’m asuming that homosexuality is founded not only in physical attraction, but also characteristics beyond and deep inside concerning the way we think, our perspectives and our cosmovision.


I don't think the separation is a bad thing. I'd much rather go to a gay club than a straight one. It's easier to meet gay guys that way ;)


I’d also like to see if someone can clearify me what’s so different about being gay? There’s not objective way to recognize them alone while walking on a street, unless we see them with their respective couples. We all share the same characteristics, right? What’s this “pride” all about also; i mean, without the intention to bash the parades, that are really picturesque and touristically attractive, they usually picture a reducted group of gay people... Saying this, why is there a need to dance half-naked to be proud of our sexuality? Where are those gay doctors, attorneys, engineers, archaeologists, etc? Wich kind of characters make you more proud of: Alexander the Great or Chris Crocker? What’s better, leaving heated comments on a shirtless pic of a random guy in facebook or having a nice conversation with your mate? Is goint to a gay nightclub to dance and have sex afterwards better than taking your mate to dinner or to see a nice movie?


I agree with the gay pride parades part. I think they're kinda tacky and a misrepresentation of gay people as a whole.
I don't get what you have against a little overt sexuality though.


And the same critic goes to Heterosexuals who found their sexuality in inmediate satisfaction of archaic needs. Being heterosexual is not about the boobs or the bublebutts, is about a man and a woman being together because they love eachothers... We’re no longer animals who need to breed to survive (not in the same extent undeveloped species), but that doesn’t mean sexual intercourse is now a sport or mere fun. The same applies to Homosexuals, since it’s not about sex, but about a man loving a man and a woman loving a woman... Having honest feelings toward other human beings is nothing to be ashamed of, but using certain labels to prove ourselves is kinda inmature. I’m also not trying to satanize sex, but since we were granted with feelings and reason then let’s focus certain responsibilities too.


You can have casual sex without being responsible. Saving sex for only those that you have a strong emotional connection with is largely impractical when a decent partner is harder to find (especially for gays).

Mokono
19-08-09, 19:37
I don't think the separation is a bad thing. I'd much rather go to a gay club than a straight one. It's easier to meet gay guys that way ;)

That was just my oppinion. If this world needs a constitution for homosexual and another one for heterosexuals, then it has failed in it's duty.

[QUOTE=takamotosan;3947048]I agree with the gay pride parades part. I think they're kinda tacky and a misrepresentation of gay people as a whole.
I don't get what you have against a little overt sexuality though.

Nothing specific at all... It just seems paradoxical how extreme disapproval groups uses this to prevent homosexual individuals to exercise their civil rights.

You can have casual sex without being responsible. Saving sex for only those that you have a strong emotional connection with is largely impractical when a decent partner is harder to find (especially for gays).

Actually i wouldn't mix being responsible towards sexual intercourse with saving myself for the people i want to live with for the rest of my life. Being responsible has a wider extent, such as wearing prophylactics to prevent STD's. As for the partner hard to find, maybe i'm misunderstanding you (please correct me if so), but is sex necessary to realize who do you love or who you don't? There exists monogamous gay couples in this world, so i don't really think having a single sexual partner can difficult this at all.

takamotosan
19-08-09, 19:43
That was just my oppinion. If this world needs a constitution for homosexual and another one for heterosexuals, then it has failed in it's duty.


I agree, but that's still no reason to mix the clubs. It's better for everyone that they are.



Actually i wouldn't mix being responsible towards sexual intercourse with saving myself for the people i want to live with for the rest of my life. Being responsible has a wider extent, such as wearing prophylactics to prevent STD's. As for the partner hard to find, maybe i'm misunderstanding you (please correct me if so), but is sex necessary to realize who do you love or who you don't? There exists monogamous gay couples in this world, so i don't really think having a single sexual partner can difficult this at all.

Good sex doesn't mean love.
I've had good sex, sure, but that doesn't mean I love the guy.


I don't go to clubs at all so I could be wrong here, but isn't the main purpose of a club to find a sexual partner for the night? If that's the case, then I guess it makes sense to have separate gay and straight clubs because it reduces the chance of getting disappointed because the attractive person turns out to be a different orientation :p So I guess what I'm saying is that where sex is directly involved I can see the logic of different approaches, but I agree that anything non-sexual should not make a distinction between gay and straight people :)

Precisely :tmb:

Ward Dragon
19-08-09, 19:44
That was just my oppinion. If this world needs a constitution for homosexual and another one for heterosexuals, then it has failed in it's duty.

I don't go to clubs at all so I could be wrong here, but isn't the main purpose of a club to find a sexual partner for the night? If that's the case, then I guess it makes sense to have separate gay and straight clubs because it reduces the chance of getting disappointed because the attractive person turns out to be a different orientation :p So I guess what I'm saying is that where sex is directly involved I can see the logic of different approaches, but I agree that anything non-sexual should not make a distinction between gay and straight people :)

IceColdLaraCroft
19-08-09, 19:55
TO CLARIFY MY HOLOCAUST COMPARISON

I know damn good and well that the Holocaust was on a MUCH larger scale, and it was a lot more complicated. I wasn't even using factual information, it was just my own observation.

I'd appreciate it if I weren't called stupid for making an observation.

I took your holocaust comparison to mean that the killing of Jews started off small and was ignored by the West until it grew into something that couldn't be ignored.

Goose: It isn't just the military. The tragedy of this is that men are being killed by their own family members.

Ward Dragon: No the purpose of a club is to find somewhere you can be yourself an enjoy the company of people like you. yes some people find a partner for the night, but that is not the purpose especially in the Middle East.

In fact in Tel Aviv, Israel a gay community center was attacked. it wasn't a bar, it wasn't a club it was a place for young gays to talk to one another and support each other when they hadn't come out to their families.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8180069.stm

A lone gunman has killed two people and wounded at least 10 at a gay support centre in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv before escaping.

Most of the victims were gay teenagers, who were meeting at the centre on Nachmani street when the gunman entered and started firing indiscriminately.

The black-clad man is still at large and police have ordered the temporary closure of all gay clubs in the city.

Gay leaders say it is Israel's worst-ever hate crime against the community.

“ That's actually the surprising issue, there is not at all any homophobic activity in Tel Aviv ”
Yaron Arad Tel Aviv hotel worker
Witnesses said the gunman fired in all directions with a handgun.

At one point, three deaths were being reported but later accounts spoke only of two fatalities - that of a young man and a young woman.

The shootings took place at the headquarters of the local lesbian and gay rights association.

Shock

Anon Shabtie, who works at the Evita gay bar close to the centre, told BBC Radio 5 Live that the gunman had attacked a place which helped young gay people:

EYEWITNESS
Yaniv Weizman, head of Israel's youth Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Association
We still don't know who is behind this attack but someone that knew this place - because it's not a place you can see outside - knew exactly where is the place, got in, and just shot everyone there.

It's a horrible, horrible shock for the gay community, and the Tel Aviv municipality. Tel Aviv is supposed to be a very safe city.

There is a big anger and if we will know that behind this action it's a religious movement, we will punish the people behind it, and the gay community here is very strong, and there will be a reaction from the gay community and the people in the government will be the first one to give us answers.

"We have a centre for people who want to go out of the closet or get support from the community and they come there every day and there are people supporting them.

"And unfortunately on Saturday evening there are teenagers coming there and they were like I don't know many guys sitting there with a guy who help them.

"And then the guy came with a helmet on his head and he was shooting them without any reason."

Hundreds of lesbian and gay Israelis held a rally and lit candles in Tel Aviv in protest at the shooting.

One woman said she was "terrified, shocked, surprised, amazed" by the attack "because it was so unexpected".

Yaron Arad, who works at a nearby hotel, said the gay community was part of the city.

"We know that Tel Aviv has a very lively gay community with plenty of activities going around," he told the BBC.

"That's actually the surprising issue, there is not at all any homophobic activity in Tel Aviv.

"Jerusalem does not naturally accept the gay community but here in Tel Aviv it's different, totally different story. A lot of parties, a lot of gay people having fun here. That's why it's so shocking what's happened here tonight."

'Inside knowledge'

Annual gay pride marches are often met with violent protests by ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem.

The head of Israel's youth Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Association, Yaniv Weizman, told the BBC the gunman must have intended to attack the centre "because it's not a place you can see outside".

He said the gay community was demanding to know why it had been targeted.

"The gay community in Israel, in Tel Aviv, today got a message, a very strong message, a red light, that Israel, Tel Aviv, no longer a safe place to no one," he said.

"And if someone can give himself the option just to say like hate and to say things against the gay community, today he can see the pictures and to see what these words can lead to."

Tel Aviv has in the past been targeted in attacks by Palestinian militants but there was no suggestion that Saturday's attack had a political motive.

A police spokesman described the attack as "criminal rather than nationalistic".

Mad Tony
19-08-09, 23:51
Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Hey, at least here in the west gays, women, in fact pretty much anyone has more rights. It's a shame really, because there are quite a few good and intellectual people from the Middle East on this forum (like Cat) but people like you just give them a bad name.

I also find it pretty disrespectful that you're badmouthing American soldiers. I also get the feeling you have this same view towards British forces, is that correct?

Ward Dragon
19-08-09, 23:52
I know this is a very heated topic, but extremely argumentative posts with graphic images are not appropriate. I have deleted the post.

Alex Shepherd
19-08-09, 23:54
Stop posting and talking about Middle East, LEAVE middle east alone, America are controlling the Iarq now, and I just post about the American soldiers who caused people deaths, but I don't know why it had been erased and hiding the American action and only talking about Middle east actions...

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:04
Stop posting and talking about Middle East, LEAVE middle east alone, America are controlling the Iarq now, and I just post about the American soldiers who caused people deaths, but I don't know why it had been erased and hiding the American action and only talking about Middle east actions...But this thread is about the Middle East though.

Oh, and please answer my question. Do you feel the same way towards British troops who recently served in Iraq as you do American?

By the way, I found pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi women and killing children.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/images/2007/05/07/soldier.jpg

http://www.libnot.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/071230-a-8161s-006.jpg

http://northshorejournal.org/LinkedImages/2008/05/87289.jpg

Somebody please stop this. This is an outrage. Look what the evil Americans are doing to those women and children!

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 00:09
^
Propaganda?

I don't think USA or any of it's allies should be in Iraq. We in the UK were lied to so many times about the reasons.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 00:10
OH! I am so sorry then, please forgive me,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROzr8AvqPR0


Did you see how many American Soldiers were very respectful due to Iraq wars :)

Sorry.

Ward Dragon
20-08-09, 00:11
No graphic images or videos!!!

Also, it's spelled "Fascist"

Edit: Alright, now that I've reviewed the video I restored the post. Thankfully it wasn't as graphic as the title or comments would imply.

Catapharact
20-08-09, 00:11
Stop posting and talking about Middle East, LEAVE middle east alone, America are controlling the Iarq now, and I just post about the American soldiers who caused people deaths, but I don't know why it had been erased and hiding the American action and only talking about Middle east actions...

Enough Alex. Just stop.

What's done is done. Yes the given War was against UN protocals but the Soldiers have done more then their fairshare to see that the place remains secure and fuctions well as a society. So IMO rather I rather work with the forces there to stabilize the region and see to it that Iraq is up and running again as another economic power in the region.

Kelly Craftman
20-08-09, 00:13
^
Propaganda?

I don't think USA or any of it's allies should be in Iraq. We in the UK were lied to so many times about the reasons.

agreed! i was thinking that

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:13
^
Propaganda?

I don't think USA or any of it's allies should be in Iraq. We in the UK were lied to so many times about the reasons.No, it's not propaganda. The real propaganda is all this crap about how coalition soldiers are all blood-thirsty monsters who have no feelings. You can criticize the governments and the war itself all you like, but criticizing the men and women in our armed forces is pathetic and downright rude. If you honestly aren't happy with what our brave men and women are doing for this country, go and sign up yourself and prove you can do better.

If you're not willing to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them

That wasn't really directed at anybody in particular by the way, just thought I'd point that out.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 00:17
No, it's not propaganda. The real propaganda is all this crap about how coalition soldiers are all blood-thirsty monsters who have no feelings. You can criticize the governments and the war itself all you like, but criticizing the men and women in our armed forces is pathetic and downright rude. If you honestly aren't happy with what our brave men and women are doing for this country, go and sign up yourself and prove you can do better.

If you're not willing to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them

That wasn't really directed at anybody in particular by the way, just thought I'd point that out.

And what about the Christian American Facists Rape and Burn a Muslim Girl- Iraq?


Thanks.

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 00:17
No, it's not propaganda. The real propaganda is all this crap about how coalition soldiers are all blood-thirsty monsters who have no feelings. You can criticize the governments and the war itself all you like, but criticizing the men and women in our armed forces is pathetic and downright rude.

If you're not willing to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them

That wasn't really directed at anybody in particular, just thought I'd point that out.


I don't have a problem with the armed forces, they are just doing their job at the end of the day. I'm sure the majority of them do not abuse their position but there are a few that will. Happens in every conflict unfortuntaley, I suppose you could put it down to human nature.

Rivendell
20-08-09, 00:17
That video is back now, Alex.

Kelly Craftman
20-08-09, 00:18
No, it's not propaganda. The real propaganda is all this crap about how coalition soldiers are all blood-thirsty monsters who have no feelings. You can criticize the governments and the war itself all you like, but criticizing the men and women in our armed forces is pathetic and downright rude. If you honestly aren't happy with what our brave men and women are doing for this country, go and sign up yourself and prove you can do better.

If you're not willing to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them

That wasn't really directed at anybody in particular by the way, just thought I'd point that out.

Progaganda hast to change because of technology, the propaganda your think of is out dated, the government has to win support from the public but with the technology these days its hard not to know whats going on

Catapharact
20-08-09, 00:19
And what about the Christian American Facists Rape and Burn a Muslim Girl- Iraq?

Copy and paste it on the youtube and see because it had been removed in this thread when I showed you the video. And video are not allowed.

Thanks.

Seriously Alex, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Look upon your argument because its no better then what the member "Legend" posted in another thread. If you have an argument to make, back it up with strong support and legitimate links that do not violate forum T&C. So until then, THINK BEFORE YOU POST!

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:20
I don't have a problem with the armed forces, they are just doing their job at the end of the day. I'm sure the majority of them do not abuse their position but there are a few that will. Happens in every conflict unfortuntaley, I suppose you could put it down to human nature.Well said :tmb:

And what about the Christian American Facists Rape and Burn a Muslim Girl- Iraq?


Thanks.What are you trying to prove exactly?

Progaganda hast to change because of technology, the propaganda your think of is out dated, the government has to win support from the public but with the technology these days its hard not to know whats going onYeah but these pictures of coalition soldiers helping women and children are legit. They're not staged for propaganda purposes. Why is it so hard for people to accept that soldiers are human being too?

Kelly Craftman
20-08-09, 00:21
Well said :tmb:

What are you trying to prove exactly?

Yeah but these pictures of coalition soldiers helping women and children are legit. They're not staged for propaganda purposes. Why is it so hard for people to accept that soldiers are human being too?

i never said they weren't human beings. i was just saying about propaganda and not the soilders

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:23
i never said they weren't human beings. i was just saying about propaganda and not the soildersOk, fair enough. What propaganda have you seen about the wars though? I must admit I haven't really seen much.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 00:25
Well said :tmb:

What are you trying to prove exactly?



It's on the page 8 check it up if you want, and I just send you a message about it and you are hiding youself that you don't even know about it.

Well then. :wve:

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 00:26
i never said they weren't human beings. i was just saying about propaganda and not the soilders

The propaganda we are fed during any war is pretty sick. You are basically wasting your time watching the news on any of the main channels. They always seem to manage to put a positive spin on what is happening.

I remember watching a programme on Channel 4 at about 3 in the morning about the Iraq war. It showed what was really happening, none of the stuff on it made the mainstream news over here.

Kelly Craftman
20-08-09, 00:26
Ok, fair enough. What propaganda have you seen about the wars though? I must admit I haven't really seen much.

we did a whole school term on it in History and English :o it got quiet boring

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:27
It's on the page 8 check it up if you want, and I just send you a message about it and you are hiding youself that you don't even know about it.

Well then. :wve:Look, I already explained to you that there are rare cases when soldiers do indeed commit atrocities. However, you've got to understand that these things happen in ALL armies and that when these atrocities are discovered the soldier's superiors deal with the matter and make sure the people responsible get punished. Do you honestly think most American soldiers in Iraq are all mindless, murderous rapists?

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 00:29
Look, I already explained to you that there are rare cases when soldiers do indeed commit atrocities. However, you've got to understand that these things happen in ALL armies and that when these atrocities are discovered the soldier's superiors deal with the matter and make sure the people responsible get punished. Do you honestly think most American soldiers in Iraq are all mindless, murderous rapists?

Yes of course ;)

more than 1000 Iraq people had been killed by the explosions and rockets that American soldiers caused it. Do you want to say that this is normal?
Don't defend on them just because your brother is in the force army, be with the right one.

Ward Dragon
20-08-09, 00:30
They always seem to manage to put a positive spin on what is happening.

I guess you aren't watching the same news that I am :p The news over here in the US is constantly complaining about the war and focusing on bad news like the suicide bombings or the number of dead soldiers rather than any progress that may have been made towards making Iraq's government self-sufficient.

amiro1989
20-08-09, 00:30
But this thread is about the Middle East though.

Oh, and please answer my question. Do you feel the same way towards British troops who recently served in Iraq as you do American?

By the way, I found pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi women and killing children.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/images/2007/05/07/soldier.jpg

http://www.libnot.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/071230-a-8161s-006.jpg

http://northshorejournal.org/LinkedImages/2008/05/87289.jpg

Somebody please stop this. This is an outrage. Look what the evil Americans are doing to those women and children!

You seriously don't believe all that crap.... :vlol: I'm sure American soldiers/British soldiers can be very friendly and very good with the citizens, but this shows a part of the truth... They won't show everything that's happening on the field.

Kelly Craftman
20-08-09, 00:31
Yes of course ;)

more than 1000 Iraq people had been killed by the explosions and rockets that American soldiers caused it. Do you want to say that this is normal?
Don't defend on them just because your brother is in the force army, be with the right one.

Khalid did you read my comment? :mad:
we've had deaths as well trying to protect Afgan anf Iraq

Rivendell
20-08-09, 00:32
Getting back on topic.. :whi:

Are there any gay Middle-Eastern members on this forum? How do they/you feel about the subject and these news reports?

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:33
I guess you aren't watching the same news that I am :p The news over here in the US is constantly complaining about the war and focusing on bad news like the suicide bombings or the number of dead soldiers rather than any progress that may have been made towards making Iraq's government self-sufficient.Yeah, over here the news is pretty similar.

Yes of course ;)

more than 1000 Iraq people had been killed by the explosions and rockets that American soldiers caused it. Do you want to say that this is normal?
Don't defend on them just because your brother is in the force army, be with the right one.*sigh* It's a shame because you just blindly believe all that propaganda you're fed. Honestly, I'm fine with you criticizing our governments and leaders, but what you're saying about coalition soldiers in Iraq is just completely false.

What do I know, my brother's only in the armed forces and he knows nothing about what's going out there. :rolleyes:

@Rivendell: I think ShadyCroft is gay.

@amiro1989: :rolleyes:

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 00:33
I guess you aren't watching the same news that I am :p The news over here in the US is constantly complaining about the war and focusing on bad news like the suicide bombings or the number of dead soldiers rather than any progress that may have been made towards making Iraq's government self-sufficient.

I was talking about the news when the main offensive was taking place. The situation there now seems like a bit of a mess which is hard to cover up.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:36
On the subject of propaganda, I think it was essential for us during the two world wars, particularly the first. Had people known about how terrible it was in the trenches I think public support for the war would've collapsed and we wouldn't have won.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 00:37
Yeah, over here the news is pretty similar.

*sigh* It's a shame because you just blindly believe all that propaganda you're fed. Honestly, I'm fine with you criticizing our governments and leaders, but what you're saying about coalition soldiers in Iraq is just completely false.

What do I know, my brother's only in the armed forces and he knows nothing about what's going out there. :rolleyes:

@Rivendell: I think ShadyCroft is gay.

@amiro1989: :rolleyes:

I live in the Middle East not you, so you are the one who don't even know what is going on. American are angels, they didn't hurt Iraq, do you want to know what happened?
Aliens came from the Mars and started to destroy Iraq, it all started by itself, magic. OK?
Listen, MY families, WILL NEVER, EVER, NEVER AND NEVER EVER, will forgive you of what you and your american soldiers did to them, you jmust respect their souls first and second I dont want to tell you to cut your eyes and throw them through this country and see what is happening, what I am telling you is to travel there as what Anjelina Jolie did and see what was going on.

Kelly Craftman
20-08-09, 00:37
@Rivendell: I think ShadyCroft is gay.


yeah he is

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 00:39
Alex... you're getting yourself in trouble my dear :p

Rivendell
20-08-09, 00:39
Well no pressure to him, but it'd be interesting to learn Shady's views on the subject.

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 00:39
On the subject of propaganda, I think it was essential for us during the two world wars, particularly the first. Had people known about how terrible it was in the trenches I think public support for the war would've collapsed and we wouldn't have won.


Exactly, that is why they don't tell you the facts. Let's face it there wasn't exactly a lot of public support for the war in Iraq here anyway.

Kelly Craftman
20-08-09, 00:40
Alex... you're getting yourself in trouble my dear :p

thank you!

takamotosan
20-08-09, 00:44
Let's stop feeding the troll and get back on topic so this thread stays alive...

:D... :/


yeah.

SHADYYYY.
Let's hear from you, boo.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 00:46
So, whats it all about? Im in trolling mood :p

amiro1989
20-08-09, 00:47
Well no pressure to him, but it'd be interesting to learn Shady's views on the subject.

It would be great indeed. :D

Squibbly
20-08-09, 00:48
I live in the Middle East not you, so you are the one who don't even know what is going on. American are angels, they didn't hurt Iraq, do you want to know what happened?
Aliens came from the Mars and started to destroy Iraq, it all started by itself, magic. OK?
Listen, MY families, WILL NEVER, EVER, NEVER AND NEVER EVER, will forgive you of what you and your american soldiers did to them, you jmust respect their souls first and second I dont want to tell you to cut your eyes and throw them through this country and see what is happening, what I am telling you is to travel there as what Anjelina Jolie did and see what was going on.

But you're accusing America as a whole. Mad Tony didn't specifically do anything to you or your family.

This is why I don't like arguments like this. It's situations like these amongst people with power and weapons that keep on feeding the hate and murders in this world.

There is good and bad in EVERY nation.

The original point of this thread is just terrible, though. I cannot even describe in words how much I'm bothered by it.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 00:48
Yeah, over here the news is pretty similar.

*sigh* It's a shame because you just blindly believe all that propaganda you're fed. Honestly, I'm fine with you criticizing our governments and leaders, but what you're saying about coalition soldiers in Iraq is just completely false.

What do I know, my brother's only in the armed forces and he knows nothing about what's going out there. :rolleyes:

@Rivendell: I think ShadyCroft is gay.

@amiro1989: :rolleyes:


Leave SHADY alone, he understand and know more than you do.

Rivendell
20-08-09, 00:50
If Shady is gay and lives in the Middle-East, I'd like to hear what he has to say. Nobody is forcing him to talk, nor doing anything to warrant a leave him alone comment.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:50
Leave SHADY alone, he understand and know more than you do.Rivendell asked if there were any people from the Middle East on this forum who were gay and I simply answered his question. Stop trying to find reasons just to pick at me. Me and ShadyCroft have had discussions in the past, and I must say he's a lot more civil than you.

@Squibbly: My brother's in the Royal Navy, therefore he's a murderer and a rapist, don't you understand?

:rolleyes:

Mokono
20-08-09, 00:53
Look, I already explained to you that there are rare cases when soldiers do indeed commit atrocities. However, you've got to understand that these things happen in ALL armies and that when these atrocities are discovered the soldier's superiors deal with the matter and make sure the people responsible get punished. Do you honestly think most American soldiers in Iraq are all mindless, murderous rapists?

Should we let those pics of torture commited by the american army to float around TRF? Seriously, even when is not in all the clases, your blatant blindness is a little bit concerning.

@Squibbly: My brother's in the Royal Navy, therefore he's a murderer and a rapist, don't you understand?

:rolleyes:

He might not be a rapist, but if he killed another man, even when it's all about to cease the enemy, the word murder fits perfectly.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 00:53
But you're accusing America as a whole. Mad Tony didn't specifically do anything to you or your family.

This is why I don't like arguments like this. It's situations like these amongst people with power and weapons that keep on feeding the hate and murders in this world.

There is good and bad in EVERY nation.

The original point of this thread is just terrible, though. I cannot even describe in words how much I'm bothered by it.

Listen hun, he isnt blaming every single civillian in America, he's only blaming the Military :wve:

amiro1989
20-08-09, 00:54
Rivendell asked if there were any people from the Middle East on this forum who were gay and I simply answered his question. Stop trying to find reasons just to pick at me. Me and ShadyCroft have had discussions in the past, and I must say he's a lot more civil than you.

@Squibbly: My brother's in the Royal Navy, therefore he's a murderer and a rapist, don't you understand?

:rolleyes:

You and Alex aren't objective at all... There's no use to discuss this matter, and Alex is indeed picking at you for nothing indeed.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:54
Should we let those pics of torture commited by the american army to float around TRF? Seriously, even when is not in all the clases, your blatant blindness is a little bit concerning.What blindness? I just said there have been some atrocities carried out by coalition forces in Iraq but these are far from the norm.

Where's Goose when you need him.

@Amiro: How am I not objective?

Carbonek_0051
20-08-09, 00:55
Listen hun, he isnt blaming every single civillian in America, he's only blaming the Military :wve:

And that makes it ok?

I have close friends in the military, he can't blame the whole damn military it's not right.

Squibbly
20-08-09, 00:56
Listen hun, he isnt blaming every single civillian in America, he's only blaming the Military :wve:

"Listen, MY families, WILL NEVER, EVER, NEVER AND NEVER EVER, will forgive you of what you and your american soldiers did to them"

That's what I was commenting on.

But even so, not every single last person in the military is evil. As I said before, there is good and bad in every nation.

Carbonek_0051
20-08-09, 00:57
"Listen, MY families, WILL NEVER, EVER, NEVER AND NEVER EVER, will forgive you of what you and your american soldiers did to them"

That's what I was commenting on.

But even so, not every single last person in the military is evil. As I said before, there is good and bad in every nation.

Exactly, but tbh Ash I wouldn't bother because it will all fall on deaf ears.

amiro1989
20-08-09, 00:57
What blindness? I just said there have been some atrocities carried out by coalition forces in Iraq but these are far from the norm.

Where's Goose when you need him.

@Amiro: How am I not objective?

You just can't be... You just said your brother was in the Navy. I don't think you'd ever say your brother is wrong or an asshole (not saying soldiers are, just exaggerating the point) when he choose to be a part of this.... Would you?

So I think it's no use to discuss the matter.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 00:59
Just because my brother is in the Navy doesn't mean I can't be impartial. Anyway, he can be an asshole at times lol.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 00:59
"Listen, MY families, WILL NEVER, EVER, NEVER AND NEVER EVER, will forgive you of what you and your american soldiers did to them"

That's what I was commenting on.

But even so, not every single last person in the military is evil. As I said before, there is good and bad in every nation.

True, but most of them are, but still, as you said, there is good and bad in every nation, I think you all have to stop blaming eachother and fighting, because this isnt gonna get us ANYWHERE.. well maybe outside the forums :wve:

Catapharact
20-08-09, 00:59
Should we let those pics of torture commited by the american army to float around TRF? Seriously, even when is not in all the clases, your blatant blindness is a little bit concerning.

The perps. responsible for the prison incident were detained, court martialed and then were given prison sentences. They paid for their crimes.

Mokono
20-08-09, 01:00
The perps. responsible for the prison incident were detained, court martialed and then were given prison sentences. They paid for their crimes.

I'm fully aware of that... But before those pics leaked no one knew what was going on.

What blindness? I just said there have been some atrocities carried out by coalition forces in Iraq but these are far from the norm.

Where's Goose when you need him.

@Amiro: How am I not objective?

Exactly, i'd like to hear from Goose, since he seems to know better than you the situation. I won't label the whole marines as the same, we all know that there's a reduced group that did those atrocities in Abu Ghraib, but did they stoped anyways? This is the result of the dehumanization taken by the media after 9/11. Everyone fears Islam, and it's sad that no one has a strong point rather what they see in the media.

Let's stop feeding the troll and get back on topic so this thread stays alive...

:D... :/


yeah.

SHADYYYY.
Let's hear from you, boo.

The city were he lives was reduced to rubble in 2006... You can't blame anyone with such an experience to be a "troll" when is full of thoughts and feelings about what's going on in his territory.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:01
The perps. responsible for the prison incident were detained, court martialed and then were given prison sentences. They paid for their crimes.Exactly. This is the point I was trying to make. In the army, if a solder does something like torture a civilian or whatever, he will be punished if found out.

@Nemesis: But most of them aren't though.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 01:02
Exactly. This is the point I was trying to make. In the army, if a solder does something like torture a civilian or whatever, he will be punished if found out.

@Nemesis: But most of them aren't though.

Lots of them are. :wve:

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:03
That's a little bit vague I'm afraid. :wve: How do you know all this? You can't just go around accusing most US soldiers of being barbaric murderers and then not backing it up with anything. Most soldiers don't go around raping and killing people for the fun of it. Why is it so hard for people to accept this?

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 01:03
But you're accusing America as a whole. Mad Tony didn't specifically do anything to you or your family.

This is why I don't like arguments like this. It's situations like these amongst people with power and weapons that keep on feeding the hate and murders in this world.

There is good and bad in EVERY nation.

The original point of this thread is just terrible, though. I cannot even describe in words how much I'm bothered by it.

So if you are smart enough and I am sure you are for more respect
You'll know to whom I am talking if the ones are good or bad.

But just one question shall I? No fighting please:
If some of them were good american soldiers, but why they traveled there or I would say the whole Military went there in the first place?

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 01:04
Can't believe that some are blaming the military, 99% of them are just following orders. You will always get a few scumbags abusing their power in these kind of situations.

The military do a good job at the end of the day.

I blame the politicians and the other people who make huge amounts of money over wars.

takamotosan
20-08-09, 01:04
The city were he lives was reduced to rubble in 2006... You can't blame anyone with such an experience to be a "troll" when is full of thoughts and feelings about what's going on in his territory.

I didn't mean from just what he's saying in this thread :pi:

amiro1989
20-08-09, 01:04
Just because my brother is in the Navy doesn't mean I can't be impartial. Anyway, he can be an asshole at times lol.

I personally think that being in the army is kinda sick, cuz it's used for hypocrite reasons. It portrays a very humanitarian approach in its ads (for instance), but it's used as a war machine.

I'm not attacking your brother personally, but do you get what I mean? It's just linked. Cuz your brother works with the Navy, so indirectly it's as if I was saying your brother is a sicko (not what I'm actually thinking, I'm sure he's a great guy and all, but it's just to give you an example of what your conversation with Alex can turn out)...

Don't post on my wall again you disrespectful little pussy. US and UK forces aren't blood-thirsty animals, alright? My brother is serving in the armed forces and I find it quite sickening when people like you bang on about how they're so evil. Sure, you will get the odd couple of soldiers who step out of line but their superiors make sure they get punished.

This is a proof of you being not objective.

Rivendell
20-08-09, 01:04
True, but most of them are

Lots of them are. :wve:

Because... ?
If you want to debate something, provide some backup. Otherwise it's pure generalisation, without proof that 'Most/Lots' of them are evil.
Just saying.
:)

Carbonek_0051
20-08-09, 01:05
True, but most of them are

Lots of them are. :wve:

And you know this how?

EDIT: And Chris beat me to it I see.:p

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:06
Can't believe that some are blaming the military, 99% of them are just following orders. You will always get a few scumbags abusing their power in these kind of situations.

The military do a good job at the end of the day.

I blame the politicians and the other people who make huge amounts of money over wars.YES! EXACTLY! :tmb: Lol, we are complete polar opposites when it comes to opinion on the Iraq war but it's good that we can completely agree on this.

This is a proof of you being not objective.What, just because I take offense when someone bad mouths our troops? Believe me, my brother isn't the only reason why it annoys me when people start slandering our troops.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 01:07
Because... ?
If you want to debate something, provide some backup. Otherwise it's pure generalisation, without proof that 'Most/Lots' of them are evil.
Just saying.
:)

And you know this how?

EDIT: And Chris beat me to it I see.:p

I know lots of things. :wve:

Rivendell
20-08-09, 01:07
That's nice. Care to share them? You know, give your argument a bit more credibility?

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:08
Not this crap again. I'm not even gonna bother this time.

@Rivendell: Lol, don't even bother trying. I've been through this before.

Mokono
20-08-09, 01:08
Because... ?
If you want to debate something, provide some backup. Otherwise it's pure generalisation, without proof that 'Most/Lots' of them are evil.
Just saying.
:)

You have to see when someone is just trolling and when someone speaks from hurt, because there is people in TRF who belong to the affected areas or who has families there, but left because of the cojuncture.

Not this crap again. I'm not even gonna bother this time.

@Rivendell: Lol, don't even bother trying. I've been through this before.

About the propaganda you meant Islam? Or anything related to Islam? I don't know, for example, like certain people seems to be the kind of guys Al-Qaeda is looking for? Just asking.

Carbonek_0051
20-08-09, 01:08
I know lots of things. :wve:

That still didn't prove anything, obviously you don't if you can't state or show any evidence of "most of them being evil".

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 01:09
YES! EXACTLY! :tmb: Lol, we are complete polar opposites when it comes to opinion on the Iraq war but it's good that we can completely agree on this.

What, just because I take offense when someone bad mouths our troops? Believe me, my brother isn't the only reason why it annoys me when people start slandering our troops.

Prove the bad mouth! Can you? :)

amiro1989
20-08-09, 01:10
YES! EXACTLY! :tmb:

What, just because I take offense when someone bad mouths our troops? Believe me, my brother isn't the only reason why it annoys me when people start slandering our troops.

But you're using it as a number one argument.... You used it 2 times, in a very short amount of time. I guess it's one of the reason why you care so much about that... Therefore, I believe you're not objective.

IceColdLaraCroft
20-08-09, 01:11
Ok back on topic. Gays in the Middle East:

Please do not use foul language. Discuss topics instead of arguing (if you want to argue do it via PM/pvt message).

Some gays are going to Israel for safety

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/gay_divide.shtml

Beruit has also been described as "welcoming" because there are gay clubs and even been described as the "sin city" of the middle east for giving up Muslim traditions and embracing western "party" culture.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:11
But you're using it as a number one argument.... You used it 2 times, in a very short amount of time. I guess it's one of the reason why you care so much about that... Therefore, I believe you're not objective.So? It still doesn't mean I'm not objective. Notice how I also get ****ed off when people say the same things about American troops, even though I don't know anybody who serves in the American armed forces?

Prove the bad mouth! Can you? :)Ok

And what about the Christian American Facists Rape and Burn a Muslim Girl- Iraq?


Thanks.

@IceColdLaraCroft: Yeah, good point. Alex, if you wanna reply to me PM me.

Rivendell
20-08-09, 01:11
You have to see when someone is just trolling and when someone speaks from hurt, because there is people in TRF who belong to the affected areas or who has families there, but left because of the cojuncture.


I wasn't going to mention trolling, and I don't deny that some are hurt - but I'm just very curious as to what the deal is with Most/Lots of them being evil is, because it does seem to have been an odd statement without backup.
I don't deny that there is evil to be found there, as everywhere. But Most/Lots?

TRhalloween
20-08-09, 01:11
That's nice. Care to share them? You know, give your argument a bit more credibility?

She knows a lot of secret stuff :wve:

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 01:12
But you're using it as a number one argument.... You used it 2 times, in a very short amount of time. I guess it's one of the reason why you care so much about that... Therefore, I believe you're not objective.

I don't know any member of the armed forces personally but to say they are all evil is ludicrous. That is an objective opinion.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 01:13
And what about the (This has nothing to do with the bad mouth) Christian American Facists Rape and Burn a Muslim Girl- Iraq? (That's what truely happened but this title is written on the youtube, it's not written by me)


Thanks. (UMM... Are you wearing glasses?)

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 01:13
That still didn't prove anything, obviously you don't if you can't state or show any evidence of "most of them being evil".

I know almost everything, but I just cant say it. :wve:

takamotosan
20-08-09, 01:14
Ok back on topic. Gays in the Middle East:

Please do not use foul language. Discuss topics instead of arguing (if you want to argue do it via PM/pvt message).

Some gays are going to Israel for safety

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/gay_divide.shtml

Beruit has also been described as "welcoming" because there are gay clubs and even been described as the "sin city" of the middle east for giving up Muslim traditions and embracing western "party" culture.

It doesn't seem like anywhere is reliably safe for gays in that region though...


Y'all don't seem to be hearing me tell you not to feed the troll
:hea:

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:14
It doesn't seem like anywhere is reliably safe for gays in that region though...I dunno, these killings don't seem to be very common. Still bad though.

Rivendell
20-08-09, 01:14
My apologies, IceCold.

I wish Shady was online to discuss it.

Mokono
20-08-09, 01:15
I wasn't going to mention trolling, and I don't deny that some are hurt - but I'm just very curious as to what the deal is with Most/Lots of them being evil is, because it does seem to have been an odd statement without backup.
I don't deny that there is evil to be found there, as everywhere. But Most/Lots?

Fair enough... Being a friend of American members of this forums gets me somehow hit by those statements, that's why i don't take them seriously.

...Maybe the best is close it to cool down and reopen when Shady arrives.

TRhalloween
20-08-09, 01:15
I know almost everything, but I just cant say it. :wve:

lol So you have confidential information about soldiers?

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 01:16
lol So you have confidential information about soldiers?

Sorta :p

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:16
Ok lol, we believe you...

amiro1989
20-08-09, 01:17
I don't know any member of the armed forces personally but to say they are all evil is ludicrous. That is an objective opinion.

You mean subjective?

You believe every single one of them is "pure evil"?

I don't. I'm sure most of them are heavily manipulated.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 01:17
Manipulated? They're not mindless drones. They're just doing their job.

Rivendell
20-08-09, 01:17
Can we get back on topic now then please? :)

Ok back on topic. Gays in the Middle East:

Please do not use foul language. Discuss topics instead of arguing (if you want to argue do it via PM/pvt message).

Some gays are going to Israel for safety

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/gay_divide.shtml

Beruit has also been described as "welcoming" because there are gay clubs and even been described as the "sin city" of the middle east for giving up Muslim traditions and embracing western "party" culture.

takamotosan
20-08-09, 01:18
I dunno, these killings don't seem to be very common. Still bad though.

Even so, you couldn't pay me enough money to go over there. It must be terrifying to know that you could be killed at any time, by your own family, no less...

Mokono
20-08-09, 01:18
You mean subjective?

You believe every single one of them is "pure evil"?

I don't. I'm sure most of them are heavily manipulated.

Actually the army is trained to follow orders, so somehow is not up to them what happens at the end of the day.

Ward Dragon
20-08-09, 01:19
It doesn't seem like anywhere is reliably safe for gays in that region though...

How practical would it be for gays from that region to leave and go to Europe, America, etc.? That seems like the obvious solution to me, but I imagine it's very difficult since more people aren't doing it.

Mokono
20-08-09, 01:20
How practical would it be for gays from that region to leave and go to Europe, America, etc.? That seems like the obvious solution to me, but I imagine it's very difficult since more people aren't doing it.

Believe me, even with all the middle eastern gay population in the west, is most certainly that the extremists will still use that label to kill their eventual political enemies.

takamotosan
20-08-09, 01:20
How practical would it be for gays from that region to leave and go to Europe, America, etc.? That seems like the obvious solution to me, but I imagine it's very difficult since more people aren't doing it.

No, I completely understand that. It seems rather hopeless to me, so long as there is still so much hate for this group. No law can change hate.

amiro1989
20-08-09, 01:20
Manipulated? They're not mindless drones. They're just doing their job.

They kinda have to. It's part of doing their job... without being mean. "Listen to orders"....

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 01:22
You mean subjective?

You believe every single one of them is "pure evil"?

I don't. I'm sure most of them are heavily manipulated.

Yeah you are right it is subjective.:p

My opinion is that due to human nature you will get atrocities committed during a war. There will always be a few genuinely bad people around.

amiro1989
20-08-09, 01:30
If I was over there, I would like to go to Israel. I heard there's a lot of good looking people over there.... But Lebanese are so hot, as well. I love blue eyes, and dark hair.

And that's how you cool off a conversation. :ton:

takamotosan
20-08-09, 01:32
If I was over there, I would like to go to Israel. I heard there's a lot of good looking people over there.... But Lebanese are so hot, as well. I love blue eyes, and dark hair.

And that's how you cool off a conversation. :ton:

:cln:

:mis:

IceColdLaraCroft
20-08-09, 01:54
If I was over there, I would like to go to Israel. I heard there's a lot of good looking people over there.... But Lebanese are so hot, as well. I love blue eyes, and dark hair.

And that's how you cool off a conversation. :ton:

I do too! And Lebanese speak French!

Lara's Nemesis
20-08-09, 01:55
What do you 2 think you are doing speaking on topic.:smk::D

IceColdLaraCroft
20-08-09, 01:57
What do you 2 think you are doing speaking on topic.:smk::D

it's my thread!:ton:

Cochrane
20-08-09, 05:52
On the subject of propaganda, I think it was essential for us during the two world wars, particularly the first. Had people known about how terrible it was in the trenches I think public support for the war would've collapsed and we wouldn't have won.
(I'm ignoring all the other crap that has been posted here on purpose)

That is assuming the Propaganda had been asymmetrical. Had all sides stopped their propaganda and everyone told their people about the horrors in the trenches, it would be likely that the entire war would have ended a good deal sooner. What that would have meant for the rest of the 20th century is very hard to predict, though.

Another thought: Would it have been so bad if the UK hadn't won, in the historical context? Given that the war was still following the mindset of the 19th century, it would have been reasonable to assume that a treaty full of odd deals, but ultimately peaceful, might have been found. Any such solution that would have left the German Empire reasonably strong might have prevented the political turmoil of the Weimar Republic and the rise of Hitler. Of course, maybe it would all have been worse…

Goose
20-08-09, 06:43
Sorta :p

Do you have confidential information about airmen to? lol.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 06:49
Do you have confidential information about airmen to? lol.

I have confidential info about almost everything :vlol:

Goose
20-08-09, 06:55
I have confidential info about almost everything :vlol:

Including me and what sort of things im getting up to in the future then i guess eh?

They kinda have to. It's part of doing their job... without being mean. "Listen to orders"....

Its against the law to follow unjust orders, its as punishable as issuing the orders. Look up the rules of engagement, if there not followed the military will come down on you like a ton of bricks, for the very reason of propaganda, if you dont follow those rules your feeding the enemies.

The job is to be a well trained individual who is capable of independent thought and actions when needed, within the parameters of given orders.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 07:12
Including me and what sort of things im getting up to in the future then i guess eh?

A bit of this, a bit of that. :p

Goose
20-08-09, 07:15
A bit of this, a bit of that. :p

Go on, surprise me with your knowledge.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 07:16
Go on, surprise me with your knowledge.

Well, what do you exactly wanna know?

Goose
20-08-09, 07:17
Well, what do you exactly wanna know?

Tell me something about the Air force's role in the future.

And am i going to get a pay rise this year?

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 07:19
Tell me something about the Air force's role in the future.

And am i going to get a pay rise this year?

I cant say anything political-related. But as for the pay rise, I might be able to help you :p What signs bring good luck to you? Like lucky numbers and stuff. :D

Goose
20-08-09, 07:21
I cant say anything political-related. But as for the pay rise, I might be able to help you :p What signs bring good luck to you? Like lucky numbers and stuff. :D

Go ahead, your allowed to in a democratic country, this sites hosted in one.

Erm, 7 i would say.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 07:26
Go ahead, your allowed to in a democratic country, this sites hosted in one.

Erm, 7 i would say.

Well, its not about this particular site, its about where I live, they track everything, they caught my brother and took him in jail O_O

okay, 7, what about other signs? Like animals and objects? and what other signs mean bad luck to you?

Goose
20-08-09, 07:34
Well, its not about this particular site, its about where I live, they track everything, they caught my brother and took him in jail O_O

okay, 7, what about other signs? Like animals and objects? and what other signs mean bad luck to you?



Dont worry our government doesnt have the money, or the political power in UAE to do that.

I guess my dog and my guitars. Bad signs would be, putting my t shirt on backwards just about everyday.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 07:35
Dont worry our government doesnt have the money, or the political power in UAE to do that.

I guess my dog and my guitars. Bad signs would be, putting my t shirt on backwards just about everyday.

Hmm.. okay :) Ill tell you in a while :D

Icarus60
20-08-09, 07:41
Is President Ahmedinajad married?

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 07:49
Hey G, I think you'll get your pay rise. :D

Goose
20-08-09, 07:55
Hey G, I think you'll get your pay rise. :D

Haha i look forward to it, thanks.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 07:55
Haha i look forward to it, thanks.

You've got an 80% chance, dont ruin it! :vlol:

Goose
20-08-09, 07:59
Im not sure if he is married, but he isnt the main leader of Iran.

You've got an 80% chance, dont ruin it! :vlol:

Lol i wont!

How do you figure it out? you could do a thread on it.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 08:01
Im not sure if he is married, but he isnt the main leader of Iran.



Lol i wont!

How do you figure it out? you could do a thread on it.

Only Psychic Vampires have the ability :ton:! Plus, they wont believe me, and bash me AGAIN :vlol:

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 08:13
They kinda have to. It's part of doing their job... without being mean. "Listen to orders"....

Its against the law to follow unjust orders, its as punishable as issuing the orders. Look up the rules of engagement, if there not followed the military will come down on you like a ton of bricks, for the very reason of propaganda, if you dont follow those rules your feeding the enemies.

The job is to be a well trained individual who is capable of independent thought and actions when needed, within the parameters of given orders.This! :tmb:

(I'm ignoring all the other crap that has been posted here on purpose)

That is assuming the Propaganda had been asymmetrical. Had all sides stopped their propaganda and everyone told their people about the horrors in the trenches, it would be likely that the entire war would have ended a good deal sooner. What that would have meant for the rest of the 20th century is very hard to predict, though.

Another thought: Would it have been so bad if the UK hadn't won, in the historical context? Given that the war was still following the mindset of the 19th century, it would have been reasonable to assume that a treaty full of odd deals, but ultimately peaceful, might have been found. Any such solution that would have left the German Empire reasonably strong might have prevented the political turmoil of the Weimar Republic and the rise of Hitler. Of course, maybe it would all have been worse…Hmm, that's a good point. However, both sides probably thought that the other were engaged in a rigorous propaganda campaign (which I guess is true) and to stop their own propaganda would've meant defeat. I know we were quite proud of our empire back then, and I'm sure you Germans were proud of yours. I dunno, things seem to have turned out alright now for our two countries so I don't think I'd prevent World War II if I could. Sounds crazy I know, but you just don't know what might've happened. I think World War II really was the war to end all wars (big ones at least).

As you said though, no one knows for sure what would've happened if the Allies lost the war. It's an interesting topic though.

@Nemesis: I'm sorry, but you're being ridiculous.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 08:14
@Nemesis: I'm sorry, but you're being ridiculous.

About what?

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 08:18
About what?About all this "confidential and secret stuff."

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 08:19
About all this "confidential and secret stuff."

Im not, seriously.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 08:22
Don't believe you. You keep on saying you know all this stuff yet you never say anything about what this "stuff" is for fear of being arrested, even though there's absolutely no reason why you would get arrested.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 08:23
Don't believe you. You keep on saying you know all this stuff yet you never say anything about what this "stuff" is for fear of being arrested, even though there's absolutely no reason why you would get arrested.

There is! And my brother did! I got arrested once because I was wearing black, they thought I worshipped the devil, you do not know the poeple here!

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 08:25
What's you wearing black and getting arrested go to do with this?

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 08:26
What's you wearing black and getting arrested go to do with this?

Im just saying, you'd get arrested for almost anything here, I cant post info, sorry :o

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 08:26
See what I mean lol?

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 08:27
See what I mean lol?

Dont you get it? I cannot post things! I really want to, but I dont wanna get in trouble! :o

Ward Dragon
20-08-09, 08:27
There is! And my brother did! I got arrested once because I was wearing black, they thought I worshipped the devil, you do not know the poeple here!

If it's that serious, then maybe it's safest for you to avoid commenting in threads like this at all. If you say you know something, people are naturally going to keep asking what you know until you say it.

NemesisX13X
20-08-09, 08:28
If it's that serious, then maybe it's safest for you to avoid commenting in threads like this at all. If you say you know something, people are naturally going to keep asking what you know until you say it.

Sorry :p Ill shut up now. :D

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 08:29
Dont you get it? I cannot post things! I really want to, but I dont wanna get in trouble! :oI rest my case.

tonyme
20-08-09, 08:29
I hope people on here know that not all Middle East people think the same and have the same opinions about things so please, no prejudice.

Thanks.

Goose
20-08-09, 08:42
If it's that serious, then maybe it's safest for you to avoid commenting in threads like this at all. If you say you know something, people are naturally going to keep asking what you know until you say it.

There are people i know who openly and truely believe the sole purpose of our wars in the middle east is for oil, they say it whenever prompted to whoever will listen, including NCO's and commissioned ones. We live in a democracy, there allowed to and wont be punished for it.

I think it proves that if our government allows its employees to hold such views openly, but Nemisis cant even mention them in her own country, that our freedoms are upheld by our government, and her government is failing her.

scoopy_loopy
20-08-09, 09:19
Call me cynical Goose, but it was rather coincidental...

Although Im still glad the west is over there, wether the ultimate goal is greedy, things accomplished along the way will be good for the people there.

amore-guy
20-08-09, 09:29
I hope people on here know that not all Middle East people think the same and have the same opinions about things so please, no prejudice.

Thanks.

Exactly...
And what's with the Middle east?... That's in Iraq!

Goose
20-08-09, 09:33
Call me cynical Goose, but it was rather coincidental...

Although Im still glad the west is over there, wether the ultimate goal is greedy, things accomplished along the way will be good for the people there.

Not at all coincidental really, we dont need to own a country to put a pipe line through it, like we were going to in Afghanistan, money in rent to the Taliban would have served both sides much better. The more Democracies there are in the world, the safer it is or on the flip side, the more communism there is the safer it is. This is what it boils down to, the more influence the west can have the better, oil or not.

We have oil reserves all over the place, if we wanted to take candy from a baby we could have invaded an African country. Probably would be more support for it.

scoopy_loopy
20-08-09, 10:42
Hehehe, yeah. Something like Australia stealing oil from our poorest neibours? But we dont care, they arent terrorists :rolleyes: :vlol:

Liberta
20-08-09, 14:32
D:

amiro1989
20-08-09, 20:35
There is! And my brother did! I got arrested once because I was wearing black, they thought I worshipped the devil, you do not know the poeple here!

What's you wearing black and getting arrested go to do with this?

See what I mean lol?

Watch Persepolis, Mad Tony.

She has the right not to tell, because she's afraid. Wasn't there a thing punishment for people browsing Gay Internet website in Middle East? I think they are blocked, or something like that. I don't remember where I read that, or who told me that, but I know it was the case.

Sorry, for bumping the thread. I was just wondering if Shady Croft, wanted to give us an inner perspective.... Without forcing him, I'm just very curious about it.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 20:38
Well I'm sorry but it's hard not to be skeptical of Nemesis when she is making a bunch of claims but will refuse to elaborate on any of them. Especially about Goose and whether or not he was gonna get a raise lol. I know Goose was joking but I'm not sure Nemesis was. The kinds of things she is saying are critical of the west, which I'm sure Arab governments have no problem with.

takamotosan
20-08-09, 20:39
Well I'm sorry but it's hard not to be skeptical of Nemesis when she is making a bunch of claims but will refuse to elaborate on any of them. Especially about Goose and whether or not he was gonna get a raise lol. I know Goose was joking but I'm not sure Nemesis was. The kinds of things she is saying are critical of the west, which I'm sure Arab governments have no problem with.

I'm with you on this one. I think she's bluffing. But she ought to talk about it in that other thread :pi:

Ward Dragon
20-08-09, 20:40
Sorry :p Ill shut up now. :D

I certainly wasn't trying to tell you to shut up :p All I was saying is that it's not nice to tease us by saying you know something but cannot tell us what it is :p

Larapink
20-08-09, 20:43
It's really a shame that, but you know this is was the Islamic/Muslim religion believe in they don't accept homosexuals/bisexuals or even transexuals. They believe everyone should be heterosexual.

takamotosan
20-08-09, 20:49
I don't really understand how people think that any society could function without the gays. The fashion industry would disintegrate.
;)

Lemmie
20-08-09, 20:50
^ And theatre. Theatre would be dead. :D

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 20:55
I'm starting this thread over and broadening the scope of the topic. Please do not post something that will derail or spam the thread. This is a serious topic and deserves to be discussed and talked about.

The latest incident involved gay Muslim men in Iraq. Since January 90 men have been killed in Iraq for either being gay or being suspected of being gay. Some of these murders were carried out by their own families as "honour" killings.

From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8204853.stm

Anti-gay attacks on rise in Iraq
Gay Iraqi men are being murdered in what appears to be a co-ordinated campaign involving militia forces, the group Human Rights Watch says.

It says hundreds of gay men have been targeted and killed in Iraq since 2004.

So-called honour killings also account for deaths where families punish their own kin in order to avoid public shame.

The report says members of the Mehdi Army militia group are spearheading the campaign, but police are also accused - even though homosexuality is legal.

Witnesses say vigilante groups break into homes and pick people up in the street, interrogating them to extract the names of other potential victims, before murdering them.

"Murder and torture are no way to enforce morality," said HRW researcher Rasha Moumneh, quoted in the report.

"These killings point to the continuing and lethal failure of Iraq's post-occupation authorities to establish the rule of law and protect their citizens."

In some cases, Human Rights Watch says it was told, Iraqi security forces had actually "colluded and joined in the killing".

Witch-hunt

Recently, posters appeared in Sadr City - a conservative, Shia area of Baghdad - calling on people to watch out for gay men and listing not only their names but also their addresses.

One gay man in Baghdad described the killing campaign as a witch-hunt.

“ These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men ”
Unnamed gay Iraqi man

Nearly 90 gay men have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of January and many more are missing, local gay rights campaigners say.

The report, called They want us exterminated: Murder, Torture, Sexual Orientation and Gender in Iraq, says horrifically mutilated bodies of gay men have been left on rubbish tips.

Sometimes their bodies are daubed with offensive terms such as "pervert", or "puppy" which is a hate word for gay men in Iraq.

The report contains detailed testimonies of a range of brutal treatment of gay Iraqi men.

"We've heard stories confirmed by doctors of men having their anuses glued and then being force-fed laxatives which leads to a very painful death," says Ms Moumneh told the BBC.

'Feminised men'

When questioned in the past, officials in Iraq have condemned the killings, but the BBC's Natalia Antelava in Baghdad reports that gay men there say nothing has been done to protect them.

"These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men," said a gay Iraqi man who did not want to be named.

Mehdi army spokesmen and clerics have condemned what they call the "feminisation" of Iraqi men and have urged the military to take action against them.

The report said many gay men have fled to other countries in the region, despite consensual homosexual activity being illegal there, because the risk of victimisation is reduced.

HRW says the threats and abuses have spread from Baghdad to Kirkuk, Najaf and Basra, although persecution remains concentrated in the capital.

Officials say part of the problem in dealing with the attacks is that victims' relatives seldom if ever provide information to the police.

"They consider talking about the subject worse than the crime itself. This is the nature of our society," ministry spokesman Major General Abdul-Karim Khalaf said.

Iraq is (or will be shortly and in totality) a client state of Iran.


The great gift that the Bush/Cheney Iraq War debacle gave us was a break in a mutual tension at the border between a Sunni run state and a Shia Iran. Bush removed Iran's enemy for it, and handed it a Iraqi government where dozens of them got their training from Iran originated political groups, and where even Maliki's bodyguard (read private army) are Iranians.


This led Iran able to pursue regional hegemony and play in Afghanistan too. It was one of the dumbest regional moves possible.

What you seen at play in Iraq are Shia militia activities. Bush's antics royally screwed the Iraqi people for generations to come. It was bad under Hussein for the Shia. It is going to be even worse for the secular, non-conformists, Christians, Sunni, Turkmen and Kurds under an Iranian yoke.

Sadly, this is just the beginning of the crackdowns

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 20:57
Copy and past that did you?

Lemmie
20-08-09, 21:00
Copy and past that did you?

I agree, you don't usually have such a good grasp of English, Alex.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 21:03
Copy and past that did you?

Oh I am sorry, its written by RNG

I agree, you don't usually have such a good grasp of English, Alex.

At least I can speak English.

Mad Tony
20-08-09, 21:04
What's RNG?

Lemmie
20-08-09, 21:04
At least I can speak English.

And that's great.

You might have added an addendum stating whether you agree or disagree with the point you should have quoted though.

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 21:08
And that's great.

You might have added an addendum stating whether you agree or disagree with the point you should have quoted though.

It's easy if someone just think about it
Since I quote that without saying anything, then I totally agree to that point ;)

Lemmie
20-08-09, 21:11
It's easy if someone just think about it
Since I quote that without saying anything, then I totally agree to that point ;)

But you didn't quote it. That's the point. But a link to RNG would be helpful.

Is that what's there in full or is there more information clarifying the author's position?

Sorry if I seemed confrontational about your command of English. :)

Alex Shepherd
20-08-09, 21:20
But you didn't quote it. That's the point. But a link to RNG would be helpful.

Is that what's there in full or is there more information clarifying the author's position?

Sorry if I seemed confrontational about your command of English. :)

I understand English very well but I never use to talk English like you do, but I am not offended, because I know myself.

Lemmie
20-08-09, 21:23
I understand English very well but I never use to talk English like you do, but I am not offended, because I know myself.

Okay, that's good.

Alex Shepherd
21-08-09, 21:38
I am still searching about the terrible acts that had happened in Iraq and want to find the truth if it was true or not, I heard from people that there was an explosions that caused them death for more than 100 people, and not killing for gays.

But my last opinion to this forum and I am sooo sorry to bring this topic back.


PLEASE! If that's what happened to Iraq, LEAVE OTHER MIDDLE EAST ALONE!! Other are not have to do with this and this is not their responsibilites, if Iraq did this, it doesn't mean that the blames go to the whole middle east + the title must be changed and removed the word middle east

And thanks.

Rivendell
21-08-09, 21:40
... Okay.

1. If it's nothing to do with the anti-gay killings, what's it to do with this thread?
2. Who are you talking to, when you say 'Leave other Middle East alone'? The people who did what you're talking about aren't on this forum. They can't hear nor read what you said.

:confused:

LaraLuvrrr
21-08-09, 21:41
@ Alex
Oh my... I think you need a cold shower or a tranquilizer or therapy or sumthin

Alex Shepherd
21-08-09, 21:41
... Okay.

1. If it's nothing to do with the anti-gay killings, what's it to do with this thread?
2. Who are you talking to, when you say 'Leave other Middle East alone'? The people who did what you're talking about aren't on this forum. They can't hear nor read what you said.

:confused:

Lebanon + Jordon + Palastine has nothing to do with this and they are from Middle east.

jackles
21-08-09, 21:41
Alex please don't shout..because thats what it feels like. there is no need.

Mad Tony
21-08-09, 21:42
I think Alex Shepherd has a victim complex.

Rivendell
21-08-09, 21:42
Lebanon + Jordon + Palastine has nothing to do with this and they are from Middle east.

Perhaps not, but it has nothing to do with this thread. That was what confused me.

Johnnay
21-08-09, 21:43
This thread feels purely of epic win

I don't know why

or I'm saying it wrong

Rivendell
21-08-09, 21:43
This thread feels purely of epic win

I don't know why

or I'm saying it wrong

Sounds like you're saying it wrong. What do you mean?

Johnnay
21-08-09, 21:45
IMO everyones confused and crazy recently???

Alex Shepherd
21-08-09, 21:45
I'm starting this thread over and broadening the scope of the topic. Please do not post something that will derail or spam the thread. This is a serious topic and deserves to be discussed and talked about.

The latest incident involved gay Muslim men in Iraq. Since January 90 men have been killed in Iraq for either being gay or being suspected of being gay. Some of these murders were carried out by their own families as "honour" killings.

From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8204853.stm

Anti-gay attacks on rise in Iraq
Gay Iraqi men are being murdered in what appears to be a co-ordinated campaign involving militia forces, the group Human Rights Watch says.

It says hundreds of gay men have been targeted and killed in Iraq since 2004.

So-called honour killings also account for deaths where families punish their own kin in order to avoid public shame.

The report says members of the Mehdi Army militia group are spearheading the campaign, but police are also accused - even though homosexuality is legal.

Witnesses say vigilante groups break into homes and pick people up in the street, interrogating them to extract the names of other potential victims, before murdering them.

"Murder and torture are no way to enforce morality," said HRW researcher Rasha Moumneh, quoted in the report.

"These killings point to the continuing and lethal failure of Iraq's post-occupation authorities to establish the rule of law and protect their citizens."

In some cases, Human Rights Watch says it was told, Iraqi security forces had actually "colluded and joined in the killing".

Witch-hunt

Recently, posters appeared in Sadr City - a conservative, Shia area of Baghdad - calling on people to watch out for gay men and listing not only their names but also their addresses.

One gay man in Baghdad described the killing campaign as a witch-hunt.

“ These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men ”
Unnamed gay Iraqi man

Nearly 90 gay men have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of January and many more are missing, local gay rights campaigners say.

The report, called They want us exterminated: Murder, Torture, Sexual Orientation and Gender in Iraq, says horrifically mutilated bodies of gay men have been left on rubbish tips.

Sometimes their bodies are daubed with offensive terms such as "pervert", or "puppy" which is a hate word for gay men in Iraq.

The report contains detailed testimonies of a range of brutal treatment of gay Iraqi men.

"We've heard stories confirmed by doctors of men having their anuses glued and then being force-fed laxatives which leads to a very painful death," says Ms Moumneh told the BBC.

'Feminised men'

When questioned in the past, officials in Iraq have condemned the killings, but the BBC's Natalia Antelava in Baghdad reports that gay men there say nothing has been done to protect them.

"These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men," said a gay Iraqi man who did not want to be named.

Mehdi army spokesmen and clerics have condemned what they call the "feminisation" of Iraqi men and have urged the military to take action against them.

The report said many gay men have fled to other countries in the region, despite consensual homosexual activity being illegal there, because the risk of victimisation is reduced.

HRW says the threats and abuses have spread from Baghdad to Kirkuk, Najaf and Basra, although persecution remains concentrated in the capital.

Officials say part of the problem in dealing with the attacks is that victims' relatives seldom if ever provide information to the police.

"They consider talking about the subject worse than the crime itself. This is the nature of our society," ministry spokesman Major General Abdul-Karim Khalaf said.

+

Gays in the middle east (Title)

Has nothing to do with Lebanon - Palastine - jordon since they are part of middle east, so you are blaming them all.

Mad Tony
21-08-09, 21:46
By the sounds of it you're the only one bringing Lebanon and Jordan into this.

Rivendell
21-08-09, 21:49
Has nothing to do with Lebanon - Palastine - jordon since they are part of middle east, so you are blaming them all.

But 'Middle East' is simply a general term. The article states where it's taking place.

It'd be like saying (for example) "Murders of Hairy one-legged Parrot-farmers on the rise in UK" , and just because it was only happening in Scotland, wouldn't make it untrue, seeing as Scotland is IN the UK.

As Iraq is IN the Middle East. It's referring to the general area. Doesn't make it any less true.

takamotosan
21-08-09, 21:50
I think Alex Shepherd has a victim complex.

I understand he's had some hardships, but flipping out everytime anyone mentions the phrase "the middle east" just makes him look like an asshole.

No one likes put-upons.

EDIT: and so it starts... :pi:

jackles
21-08-09, 21:51
And I am saying straight.....make sure that your posting remains civil.

Johnnay
21-08-09, 21:53
And I am saying straight.....make sure that your posting remains civil.

LMFAO
calm down Jackie

on the other note the killings in Iraq is wrong. I want gay men in this world too

jackles
21-08-09, 21:56
*raises eye brow at Johnnay*

I am never anything but calm johnnay...


but I am wondering about the hairy one legged parrot famer murders...

TRhalloween
21-08-09, 21:57
LMFAO
calm down Jackie

on the other note the killings in Iraq is wrong. I want gay men in this world too

She is calm. She bolded it because she's a mod.

Johnnay
21-08-09, 21:58
She is calm. She bolded it because she's a mod.

That post felt like crazyness dude

can't stop laughing sorry

back to topic

Ward Dragon
21-08-09, 22:00
That post felt like crazyness dude

can't stop laughing sorry

back to topic

No crazyness whatsoever. She put it in bold so that no one would miss it. It's important that this topic remains polite without any insults :)

george_croft
21-08-09, 22:02
Lebanon + Jordon + Palastine has nothing to do with this and they are from Middle east.

LGBT rights in Lebanon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Lebanon): "Homosexuality remains a crime in Lebanon"

Don't even get me started.

Rivendell
21-08-09, 22:06
^

Article 534 of the Lebanese Penal Code prohibits having sexual relations that are "contradicting the laws of nature," which is punishable by up to a year in prison. This prohibits homosexuality, along with adultery.....

Adultery? Contradicting the laws of nature? Does anyone else not see the connection with that?

They've got guts though, for sure.

In 2002, a gay rights organization was started in Lebanon. The Hurriyyat Khassa or Private Liberties seeks to reform Article 534 of the criminal code so that sexual relations between consenting adults in private are no longer a crime. Another gay rights organization in Lebanon is called Helem (Arabic: حلم‎, "Dream" in Arabic and an acronym for the Lebanese Protection of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender community). These organizations have staged a few public demonstrations, lectures, fundraisers for AIDS education, charitable events and exhibitions of films and have been interviewed by the Lebanese media.

Helem is a completely legal organization in Lebanese. As explained in the Helem website[7], "according to the Lebanese law of association, any non-government organization can register through providing public notice ("3ilm wa khabar" in Arabic) to the Lebanese Ministry of Interior. Contrary to popular opinion, organizations do not need "permission" from the Ministry in order to be considered legal. Furthermore, the Ministry is obligated by law to issue an immediate reciept with a registration number to the organization submitting its public notice. The only legal reasons justifying a rejection of public notice are: (a) The documentation provided in the public notice is incomplete (b) The organization's field of action and principles violate or compromise one of the following: National security, the sovereignty of the state, Public morality"

As of yet, Helem has not recieved its reciept of registration from the Ministry of Interior, which is a clear violation of the law and has no bearing on the legality of Helem, says the Helem presentation.
It wents on to explain that Helem does not violate public morals. None of Helem's activities violate any existing laws, including the law of public morality. In 2006, a lawsuit was filed against Helem accusing it of "public indecency and corrupting the youth", but after investigations failed to corroborate this claim, the lawsuit was dropped.

In 2004, gay rights supporters hosted a showing of the 1961 British film Victim at the American University in Beirut. After the video, a heated discussion followed between advocates for gay rights, and those who felt that homosexuality should remain illegal, based on traditional religious moral values.[8]
Also, in 2004, the trendy fashion shop Aishti sponsored a series of advertisements on Beirut billboards with three men and three women embracing. The six were fashionably dressed in different color tops representing the gay rainbow flag. The billboards read: "Vote For Tolerance".[9]

In 2006, Helem celebrated the International Day Against Homophobia in Monroe Hotel Downtown.[10][11] The event shocked the majority of the Lebanese. Lebanese Police was protecting the hotel during the event.
In February 2009, an estimated two hundred people gathered in Beirut for what is believed to be the first public LGBT rights protest in the Arab world. The group also condemned discrimination against women, children, and domestic workers.[12]

While these organizations have been permitted to exist, and gain some degree of publicity, they have little public support. According to one of the founders of "Private Liberties," the organization has some support from lawyers, doctors and journalists that have worked on human rights issues, along with some left-wing members of the "Khatt Mubashir."

Alex Shepherd
21-08-09, 22:08
Alex please don't shout..because thats what it feels like. there is no need.

I am soo sorry.