View Full Version : Tomb Raider Level Tournament - Worst of the Worst - TR1
A few months ago, we had a massive round of polls, first for voting for everyone's favourite level in each game, then an overall poll for favourite TR level in all the games. During the course of the polls, there was some tongue-in-cheek discussion about having a similar poll for least favourite levels, which Explorer referred to in a recent thread (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=3994049&postcount=11). So I decided, why not have such polls? :D
Just like for the previous "Best of the Best (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=150821)" tournament, this "Worst of the Worst" tournament will have polls with the names of all the levels, and you have to choose the one you like the least. Unlike the previous tournament, this one is mostly light-hearted, and to be taken in a spirit of fun, rather than as an opportunity to bash a particular game/level/developer, etc. In short: if this turns into a flame war, then no more polls!
Also, remember, the winning - errr, losing ;) - level does not necessarily have to be a bad level, just the one that most people think was the least interesting one in the game. So please don't make a fuss if your favourite level is chosen as the Worst level. People just have different tastes, that's all.
If you don't think any level is your least favourite, by all means abstain from voting and state your reasons for doing so in a post.
The poll will remain open for 4 days, or as long as it takes for a clear winner (loser) to emerge. :D
I am not voting, bye :wve:
Eddie Haskell
04-09-09, 20:23
I think you put the best possible spin that you could on it with the "Least Favorite" phrase, but like Drone I don't care to partake. At this point, I doubt that I could honestly and sincerely rate my "least favorite" level anyway.
To elaborate further, I honestly do not break the game up into levels any more, at least in recent years. I see it as a complete package, and as an almost perfect game.
Obviously no one is forced to vote. But considering that there was already a thread on the same topic going on, all I have really done is add a poll. And there will be similar polls for all the games, not just this one. It's not like anyone is trying to vilify this particular game.
Eddie Haskell
04-09-09, 20:29
Obviously no one is forced to vote. But considering that there was already a thread on the same topic going on, all I have really done is add a poll. And there will be similar polls for all the games, not just this one. It's not like anyone is trying to vilify this particular game.
I know, and it's nothing against you or the idea. I don't wish to influence anyone not to vote, it's their choice and it's all in fun anyway. But no matter what, in the end one magnificent level will be tainted... :(
all those levels are too different to be compared. they all play a role and they make TR1 look solid and steady. that's why it's impossible to pick one and say that it's worst. that's how I explain my reaction
During the course of the polls, there was some tongue-in-cheek discussion about having a similar poll for least favourite levels, which Explorer referred to in a recent thread (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=3994049&postcount=11). So I decided, why not have such polls? :D
Oh dear this is my fault ... :p
Ah well I'm guessing Ward Dragon just couldn't go through with doing the worst level polls.
Unlike the previous tournament, this one is mostly light-hearted, and to be taken in a spirit of fun, rather than as an opportunity to bash a particular game/level/developer, etc. In short: if this turns into a flame war, then no more polls!
Also, remember, the winning - errr, losing ;) - level does not necessarily have to be a bad level, just the one that most people think was the least interesting one in the game. So please don't make a fuss if your favourite level is chosen as the Worst level. People just have different tastes, that's all.
I've gone for Natla's Mines. I don't dislike this level, just that my interest waned when I came to it, not particularly sure why...
I also hope folks won't take these polls too seriously, as I said above, I don't dislike the level I voted for.
i3 Legendary
04-09-09, 21:10
I voted for Cistern, i hate that level so Much!
So big, too open and not enough things to kill.
Oh dear this is my fault ... :p
Don't pretend you didn't blackmail me into doing this. :smk: :ton:
On a slightly more serious note: Voted for Natla's Mines too. It's not bad, and has some good moments too, but basically I hate being left weaponless, and Natla's Mines started this "grand" old tradition. So it feels the brunt of my wrath quite a bit. :p
I decided to vote for Caves. It's very short and linear, and a lot of rooms have no more purpose than for you to simply pass through.
I voted Tomb of Tihocan; it's not that I don't like it as such, but it seems to be the less indifferent compared to the other levels that all have something interesting in them in every aspect.
takamotosan
04-09-09, 21:29
Cistern.
I just don't like all the tedious backtracking.
Eddie Haskell
04-09-09, 21:31
I decided to vote for Caves. It's very short and linear, and a lot of rooms have no more purpose than for you to simply pass through.
Your response and vote goes right to the heart of what I am saying. These "levels" fit together into a whole, and that is the way it should be viewed and understood. The caves are not so much a level as an introduction and a passage...to real adventure.
Many games have levels, and very few are able to piece them together into a whole unit as cohesively and magnificently as this game.
In my opinion, the game should be viewed and analyzed by the entire quest areas, as in the first 4, the next 5, the next 3 and the last 3.
I don't believe that TRF members will be able to handle this especially as we go into the AOD/Legend polls. Its all very well for the classics where there's usually more peaceful discussion but worst of the worst is just asking for negativity. I hope I'm prooved wrong though.
The name of the thread is just a spoof of the "Best of the Best" tournament. And the only negativity I can see so far is from those who anticipate negativity. And as I have said in the first post, if there are any flame wars, the polls will no longer continue.
I am not voting, bye :wve:
I think you put the best possible spin that you could on it with the "Least Favorite" phrase, but like Drone I don't care to partake. At this point, I doubt that I could honestly and sincerely rate my "least favorite" level anyway.
To elaborate further, I honestly do not break the game up into levels any more, at least in recent years. I see it as a complete package, and as an almost perfect game.
Count me in, guys. I have no non-favourite levels in TR1 also.
@ Mytly: There must be an option "None from the current game" ;)
We didn't have such an option in the favourite level poll, why should it be there in this one? :p
We didn't have such an option in the favourite level poll, why should it be there in this one? :p
Well... It was probably your fault of not suggesting one ;)
:p
I voted Natla's mines. There is not anything in there that I dread but it just never inspired my imagination as much as the other levels. I still enjoy playing it, just not as much as all the others.
Aww where's the sense of fun in people! It's just a poll. :p
I chose the Cistern. It just didn't grab my interest that much. It was repetitive and quite dull.
!Lara Croft!
05-09-09, 02:11
Well i like all of them but if i had to choose it would be caves because its quite bland,but that is alright because its the first one.
The rest had me terrified, which is a good thing.
Trfansince1996
05-09-09, 02:44
I almost couldnt do this. XD too hard to decide. Caves wins this tho. Worst level (not bad) but too short and...pointless XD. The rest of TR1 is flawless :).
voted in Cistern :rolleyes:
it's not a bad level, just my least favourite (as the poll says)
Caves,I won't forget the entrance,the wolfes and the solitude while I still alive :o
Ward Dragon
05-09-09, 06:51
Ah well I'm guessing Ward Dragon just couldn't go through with doing the worst level polls.
Yeah, pretty much :p I was procrastinating because I didn't want to find out if this would erupt into flame wars and I guess I took too long to decide whether or not to do it.
Anyway, I voted for Natla's Mines. Every damned time I play TR1 I manage to royally mess up in Natla's Mines by missing the pistols, doing a crazy jump and getting stuck where I'm not supposed to be, etc. I like getting stumped about where to go, but I hate it when it's possible to do something totally wrong and mess up the rest of the game afterwards so that I have to restart the whole level.
Don't pretend you didn't blackmail me into doing this. :smk: :ton:
Hehe ... well your a good girl for setting it up ... I won't have to disclose to everyone that you were trying to gain admin access to TRF :whi: ... oops I just did :p
And as I have said in the first post, if there are any flame wars, the polls will no longer continue.
I think that be should be stated categorically, in the introductory post for each of the poll threads.
Yeah, pretty much :p I was procrastinating because I didn't want to find out if this would erupt into flame wars and I guess I took too long to decide whether or not to do it.
Yeah thought so, hopefully it won't. ;) Personally there wasn't a level that I didn't enjoy in someway from TR1-5. But there were obviously levels that did not interest me as much as others, or that got me frustrated for some reason.
Your response and vote goes right to the heart of what I am saying. These "levels" fit together into a whole, and that is the way it should be viewed and understood. The caves are not so much a level as an introduction and a passage...to real adventure.
Many games have levels, and very few are able to piece them together into a whole unit as cohesively and magnificently as this game.
In my opinion, the game should be viewed and analyzed by the entire quest areas, as in the first 4, the next 5, the next 3 and the last 3.
I'd agree with you about that if you were talking about sets of levels such as Karnak and Cairo in TR4, since they really do link together to make a bigger level. Caves, on the other hand, is an entirely separate experience to the next three levels, so I think it should be viewed as such.
That's not to say its role in the game isn't important. Being the first level, it needs to be quite easy and to serve as an introduction to the rest of the game, but although I do quite like the level, I still feel it could have been done better in places.
Honestly I thought I could vote at first but finally I realize that I can't. All the levels were awesome. :)
xXhayleyroxXx
05-09-09, 10:11
great pyramid for me, tht torso boss annoyed me!
Yeah, pretty much :p I was procrastinating because I didn't want to find out if this would erupt into flame wars and I guess I took too long to decide whether or not to do it.
Anyway, I voted for Natla's Mines. Every damned time I play TR1 I manage to royally mess up in Natla's Mines by missing the pistols, doing a crazy jump and getting stuck where I'm not supposed to be, etc. I like getting stumped about where to go, but I hate it when it's possible to do something totally wrong and mess up the rest of the game afterwards so that I have to restart the whole level.
i liked your polls better. i support Mytly's one although its gonna feel wrong :confused:
i voted Tomb of Tihocan Why becoz its a bit annoying though you really feel weird
i liked your polls better. i support Mytly's one although its gonna feel wrong :confused:
How come? Ward Dragon was even thinking of doing this same poll but she couldn't go through with it, what difference does it make who's poll it is? :)
Couldn't possibly do any of the levels in TR1 such an injustice as to point the finger and say one's less good than the others.
:wve:
How come? Ward Dragon was even thinking of doing this same poll but she couldn't go through with it, what difference does it make who's poll it is? :)
no her polls about whats your fave levels a few months ago were good.:)
just thinking about whats your least fave level is frustrating and yeh feels a bit wrong IMO.
i do not like a few levels
Yeah I agree they were good :tmb:
I also find it frustrating and a bit wrong, but with the other polls a lot of members had a particular level that stuck out as their favourite, so it should not be surprising that they may have a level which is their least favourite -doesn't necessarily mean its a bad level :)
great pyramid for me, tht torso boss annoyed me!
Same to me.But it was hard to choose one level of Atlantis.Great pyramid won for me because of torso.I don't like Atlantis levels very much.
lara croft TR
05-09-09, 13:14
Obelisk of Khamoon - not shure why I don't like that level...
just croft
05-09-09, 13:59
For me it's gotta be Tomb of Tihocan http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/icons/icon13.gif
If I hadn't read the thread more carefully I would have voted for the best level!:tea: I honestly thought this was the best level round 2 (ah... 2? :confused:).
I decided to vote for Caves. It's very short and linear, and a lot of rooms have no more purpose than for you to simply pass through.
I though about that too, but then I realised that it makes a very good first level.
January_Snow*
05-09-09, 14:32
^^
The Caves is one of best TR levels for me, its an awsome level cause it focuses solley on exploarition :D
*laralover*
05-09-09, 15:47
Well seeing as TR1 is my favourite there is no level i can vote for here :p
XianWarrior
05-09-09, 17:29
Woo! I think I was part of that "tongue in cheek" discussion, anyway, I'm gonna vote for the Cistern because I think its dull.
There aren't really any levels in TR1 I dislike, my closest least favorite is between Tomb of Tihocan and Natla's Mines, I think I'll go for NM as it doesn't quite have the mystery of the other levels (although it's not far behind).
Yuna´s Wish
05-09-09, 19:18
I was torn between Caves and Colosseum...but Caves is a linear and fairly simple training level, when Colosseum should have been an excellent 6th level, especially after St. Francis Folly (and before Palace Midas).
Uzi master
05-09-09, 19:32
I chose colloseum too, so undetailed and they even spelled the name wrong! but I don't know why everybody hates Natlas mines its my faveorite, hopefully cistern will win, or rather lose.
I voted Caves. I know, I know - it's so iconic and I do love it, but the all the other levels are simply better! There isn't a single level in TR1 I don't love. :D
I voted Obelisk. It just drags on.I chose colloseum too, so undetailed and they even spelled the name wrong! but I don't know why everybody hates Natlas mines its my faveorite, hopefully cistern will win, or rather lose.
It's spelled the British way. :D Crystal shouldn't have changed the spelling since Lara's British so she'd refer to it as the Colosseum.
I'll be annoyed if Cistern or to a lesser extent Natla's Mines gets named worst level.
They're bloody great levels.
I'll be annoyed if Cistern or to a lesser extent Natla's Mines gets named worst level.
They're bloody great levels.
Me too! They're both fantastic levels! Though I can understand why - but still...
{eith;4001413']Me too! They're both fantastic levels! Though I can understand why - but still...
The Cistern was genius because the level was a puzzle in itself and a great prelude the final Greece level while Natla's Mines was just epic. You start off with no weapons and multiple paths to choose from to solve a puzzle to reclaim the pistols. Then you fight 3 bosses and open the doors to the innards of Atlantis. I can't see what there isn't to like. :/
The Cistern was genius because the level was a puzzle in itself and a great prelude the final Greece level while Natla's Mines was just epic. You start off with no weapons and multiple paths to choose from to solve a puzzle to reclaim the pistols. Then you fight 3 bosses and open the doors to the innards of Atlantis. I can't see what there isn't to like. :/
Alot of people found the Cistern confusing and Natla's Mine frustrating - which is a shame because they are genius levels, particularly the Cistern (I was gutted by Anniversary's homage). Some serious thought went into these levels, it's a shame they aren't appreciated as they were meant to.
Ward Dragon
06-09-09, 00:59
The Cistern was genius because the level was a puzzle in itself and a great prelude the final Greece level while Natla's Mines was just epic. You start off with no weapons and multiple paths to choose from to solve a puzzle to reclaim the pistols. Then you fight 3 bosses and open the doors to the innards of Atlantis. I can't see what there isn't to like. :/
I love The Cistern. With Natla's Mines, though, it's a pretty good level the way you described it. However, it's possible to totally mess up and do things in completely the wrong order so I'm stuck with three boss fights and no weapons. Every damned time I manage to do something like that. I really should have learned by now :p
Uzi master
06-09-09, 01:24
I like doing Natlas mines with no pistols, I like to get the shotgun to fight on, and have the pistols magically appear in the next level.
ThatNorskChick
06-09-09, 02:41
I guess I'd go with the Caves. It's great, but there's not much to it.
...I'm sorry Caves, I still love you baby. :hug:
Tombraiderx08
06-09-09, 03:55
I absolutely hated the cistern! I had to go online for a walkthrough and figure out what i was doing wrong :vlol:
Eddie Haskell
06-09-09, 12:49
Well it seems clear that much of the "hate" is directly proportional to the gamers inability to comprehend the complexity and genius of the level design, as ]{eith has pointed out. And it's first cousin as expressed by some pertaining to selected levels is what amounts to boredom.
It'll be a darn shame that no matter which level "loses" this poll, it will be tainted as "the worst level in the original classic", regardless of the original intent of the voter or the poll. That is why I refuse to be a part of it.
I'll be annoyed if Cistern or to a lesser extent Natla's Mines gets named worst level.
They're bloody great levels.
I agree with you about The Cistern. I damn nearly voted for that in the best level poll. Natla's Mines, on the other hand, is a great level, although I can sort of understand why so many people are voting for it. The first part is pure genius, the lava hopping after that is also quite good and the three fights with Natla's henchmen are all very memorable, but it does go downhill slightly after the fight with the skateboard kid, with all those blocks you have to push. There are also some sections earlier on that involve a bit too much time climbing or pushing boxes of TNT.
I'm personally perplexed that St Francis' Folly got a vote. I won't say anything more besides that though.
I think I will endeavor to write something positive regarding my least favourite level in future polls just to show I don't "hate" it. As I've expressed there isn't a level from TR1-5 (and TR Gold levels) that I did not enjoy in some way.
pizzabob18
06-09-09, 15:39
How in the world is Cistern tied for 1st place? That level is a classic!
While I don't hate any level, (yes, I'm even a fan of Natla's Mines!), I'd rank City of Khamoon as the lowest on the scale. Just because the level following it (Obelisk of Khamoon) is very similar, but makes a better use of the textures and designs.
Chocola teapot
06-09-09, 18:44
I Just voted Palace Midas worst!! :confused: :O i thought it meant best!!! :O NOOOOOO
Ward Dragon
06-09-09, 18:55
I Just voted Palace Midas worst!! :confused: :O i thought it meant best!!! :O NOOOOOO
You bad bad person http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f214/WraithStar/Smileys/defiant-1.jpg :p
Seriously though, I don't think it will make much difference in the poll overall (unless you would have voted for Natla's Mines or The Cistern :p) so I suppose it's a good lesson to everyone to read the poll before voting. For example, you'd be surprised how many people vote first and then post that they didn't realize the poll was multiple choice.
Alright, this poll isn't multiple choice, but I wonder how many people just panicked and double checked :mis:
I Just voted Palace Midas worst!! :confused: :O i thought it meant best!!! :O NOOOOOO
What would you have voted for ? (presuming you have a least favourite level)
For example, you'd be surprised how many people vote first and then post that they didn't realize the poll was multiple choice.
I did that with the poll about which sections of the forum do you spend the most time in. I think its because multiple choice polls are pretty rare in comparison, so you get into this pattern of thinking that you only have one choice when a poll appears.
Uzi master
06-09-09, 19:10
I'd like to hear something wrong with Natlas Mines/ Cistern the doesnt involve you not knowing what to do!
Ward Dragon
06-09-09, 19:28
I did that with the poll about which sections of the forum do you spend the most time in. I think its because multiple choice polls are pretty rare in comparison, so you get into this pattern of thinking that you only have one choice when a poll appears.
The option buttons are different shapes -- the regular polls have circles and the multiple choice polls have squares :p
I'd like to hear something wrong with Natlas Mines/ Cistern the doesnt involve you not knowing what to do!
I really think Natla's Mines should have had a gate in front of the cowboy area, or at least something to indicate that we're supposed to get the pistols first before going there. I like complex levels, but I don't like it when it's possible to get totally screwed over just because I picked the "wrong" path and there was no logical way to tell that I wasn't supposed to go there yet. I don't think Core intended for it to be that way anyway. I always loaded from earlier on in the level once I realized I messed up (yet again xD) but according to someone else in this thread it is indeed possible to get past the level without acquiring the pistols, in which case they magically appear in the next level. It should not be possible for that to happen.
...
According to someone else in this thread it is indeed possible to get past the level without acquiring the pistols, in which case they magically appear in the next level. It should not be possible for that to happen.
That's what I did first time round. :p
The option buttons are different shapes -- the regular polls have circles and the multiple choice polls have squares :p
Yes well ... the different shapes didn't even occur to me at the time :p I will keep it in mind for next time though ;)
I have added a line in the first post about those who don't want to vote for any level. While I respect that position, I do think it's a little extreme. Surely in a 15-level game, there is some level that was not as good as the others? :confused: All this poll is asking for is for you to state which level that was for you. After all, even if a level is fantastic, and rates 9.9/10, it will still be the worst level in the game if all the others rate 10/10.
I really think Natla's Mines should have had a gate in front of the cowboy area, or at least something to indicate that we're supposed to get the pistols first before going there. I like complex levels, but I don't like it when it's possible to get totally screwed over just because I picked the "wrong" path and there was no logical way to tell that I wasn't supposed to go there yet. I don't think Core intended for it to be that way anyway. I always loaded from earlier on in the level once I realized I messed up (yet again xD) but according to someone else in this thread it is indeed possible to get past the level without acquiring the pistols, in which case they magically appear in the next level. It should not be possible for that to happen.
Agree 100%. I made the same mistake the first time around in that level. And yes, it is poor level design when you can get to a particular spot without getting the necessary items, and it gets even worse when you don't even realize that there is something you have missed. In this case, I thought I had to defeat the Cowboy without weapons - i.e. trick him into falling into lava or something (which, ironically, is the correct method for defeating the Doppelganger in the next level).
rr_carroll
06-09-09, 20:30
As much as I respect your opinions, Mytly, I DO want to state some alternate points of view. I suppose if someone is really fond of this game, they may feel asking to pick the worst level is a bit like asking who is their ugliest child (an overblown analogy, I admit).
Secondly, I rather enjoyed the lack of hand-holding in the game. A more cautious style of play is rewarded, and you're responsible for keeping yourself out of trouble. And about the cowboy, there is a way of "defeating" him without pistols - don't! Hang over the cliff as fast as you can, and continue. You'll soon find the shotgun, and then you can go back and blast him if you wish (I'm sure you know this).
I must admit that I played TR2 first, so I was already used to the idea of dying several times to learn the path.
Again, you're not wrong, there are different ways to look at it. :)
The analogy is overblown, and that is exactly my point. It's a game, not a person or a way of life. People can and should be allowed to have negative opinions about it, even if others find it flawless (and the latter are entitled to that opinion as well, of course).
Romantics Inc.
06-09-09, 21:17
Natla's Mines
Uzi master
06-09-09, 23:51
I really think Natla's Mines should have had a gate in front of the cowboy area, or at least something to indicate that we're supposed to get the pistols first before going there. I like complex levels, but I don't like it when it's possible to get totally screwed over just because I picked the "wrong" path and there was no logical way to tell that I wasn't supposed to go there yet. I don't think Core intended for it to be that way anyway. I always loaded from earlier on in the level once I realized I messed up (yet again xD) but according to someone else in this thread it is indeed possible to get past the level without acquiring the pistols, in which case they magically appear in the next level. It should not be possible for that to happen.
I said exept no knowing where to go:p but why wan't it to be less linear? plus the fact that theres a building you have to put fuses in means you shouldnt be skipping it, it all has to do with logic.
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 00:00
I said exept no knowing where to go:p but why wan't it to be less linear? plus the fact that theres a building you have to put fuses in means you shouldnt be skipping it, it all has to do with logic.
Well how was I supposed to know that the fuse I was missing wasn't past that point? It's poor level design to allow the player to get where they aren't supposed to be yet.
Eddie Haskell
07-09-09, 00:11
Well how was I supposed to know that the fuse I was missing wasn't past that point? It's poor level design to allow the player to get where they aren't supposed to be yet.
I totally disagree. In my mind this makes it more real, and allows the gamer the individuality that is severely lacking in games today. The capability to "screw-up" is a good thing in my book.
I too have defeated the Cowboy after passing him with no weapons and returning with the shotgun. I usually leap from the area of the switch over the lava to gun him down. I did notice that he cannot hurt you if stay back by the switch as he shoots at you. If you get closer to the edge he can hit you.
Uzi master
07-09-09, 00:24
the same thing happend to me with larson when I climbed up to the enterance of the lost valley and shot him:D and yes making it so we cant screw up is pretty boring, and you dont screw up that bad since you can get the shotgun or come back for the pistols.
I totally disagree. In my mind this makes it more real, and allows the gamer the individuality that is severely lacking in games today. The capability to "screw-up" is a good thing in my book.
Only ever in a way which is can somehow be redeemed. Otherwise once you screw up you're stuffed.
Yuna´s Wish
07-09-09, 06:16
I can´t believe how many votes Cistern got :eek: It´s an excellent level, complex...rusty...full of crocs and rats swimming with you, Pierre, and a great flooding puzzle which can really get the PS players mad if they didn´t utilize the save crystals correctly.
Uzi master
07-09-09, 06:32
well some people arent to fond of pierre, and if youve read this, non linear levels where you can actually screw up whitout directly dyeing
I really can't decide. I love all levels :-P
stephieCroft
07-09-09, 14:00
I can´t believe how many votes Cistern got :eek: It´s an excellent level, complex...rusty...full of crocs and rats swimming with you, Pierre, and a great flooding puzzle which can really get the PS players mad if they didn´t utilize the save crystals correctly.
I'm a PS player , i don't get mad nor lost:ton: , but i do enjoy the level.I played not long ago like two weeks.I don't really like Atlantis
I just picked Caves. It is a great level and 'engraved' into my memory, since it was the first TR level I ever played, but out of the lot it's the shortest and easiest.
Caves, Natla's Mines and Cistern are winning (or losing in this case)...
I can imagine why people would pick Natla's Mines, because it wasn't very 'special' to me either. Loved the fights though, and recollecting all of the weapons and getting crushed by the boulders. :D
Cistern is a complete surprise to me though! That level was amazing! Very long, quite complicated with lots of keys and levers and doors. Pierre showing up all the time and the crocs. I remember how people complained about the fact this level (or the name actually) was missing from TRA. I wonder if that could have anything to do with this. Since playing TRA does remind you how great the TR-1 levels used to be and when one of the levels is gone, well, then it is possible that this level is a bit harder to remember and people just pick that one? Or maybe some people who voted never played this game and just picked Cistern because they were unfamiliar with the name...:whi:
natla's mines. because it lacks... aesthetics (uses the same textures over and over again, too much random geometry....)
marla_biggs
07-09-09, 18:37
Cistern can get pretty tedious.
x
natla's mines. because it lacks... aesthetics (uses the same textures over and over again, too much random geometry....)
at last someone said something really constructive but ..... it's not gonna change my mind about this level and entire TR1. Do not forget that they were really limited by those tech. limitations at that time. All other games in 96 couldn't be better than that. It really shouldn't be a problem for TR1, at least for me.
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 18:41
I totally disagree. In my mind this makes it more real, and allows the gamer the individuality that is severely lacking in games today. The capability to "screw-up" is a good thing in my book.
I prefer it when a screw-up means I have to wander around more and figure out what to do. On the other hand, I don't like getting shot at without anything to defend myself :p So that's probably why The Cistern is my second favorite level (right after Palace Midas) since screwing up there just means wandering around more, whereas Natla's Mines is my least favorite level since screwing up there means getting thrown into a combat situation without any weapons.
Uzi master
07-09-09, 18:51
again you can just get the shotgun, if you have no ammo then it will bring the pistols outt too so don't complain. And its not much of a srew up if you fall down and have to go back up, it shouldnt take to long.
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 18:51
again you can just get the shotgun, if you have no ammo then it will bring the pistols outt too so don't complain.
This is all about personal preference, so don't tell me "don't complain" for stating my feelings and explaining why I feel that way.
Uzi master
07-09-09, 18:54
well it IS tomb raider, its all about the challnge, whether its puzzles enimies or whatever at least it used to be, we love tomb raider because its challenging (and a couple other reasons)
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 19:00
Geez, now I'm getting it from both sides -- first the Crystal fans tell me to stop complaining about Crystal's games and now the Core fans tell me to stop complaining about Core's games :p What ever happened to people having individualized opinions about each separate game and liking some parts but not others? :whi:
In any case, it is impossible to get past cowboy guy without using a lot of medipacks (he constantly shoots Lara while climbing down the cliff face) so if someone got up to that point without pistols or a lot of medipacks then the game is unwinnable. That's poor level design. It should always be possible to get past the situation after a screw-up regardless of what is or isn't in one's inventory. It's poor level design to allow the player to get into an unwinnable situation without instant death.
And as for the pistols magically appearing if they haven't been obtained yet, that's just stupid and further emphasizes that Core never intended people to go past the cowboy before getting the pistols (in which case they should have blocked that area off until after the pistols have been obtained).
Eddie Haskell
07-09-09, 19:07
Geez, now I'm getting it from both sides -- first the Crystal fans tell me to stop complaining that about Crystal's games and now the Core fans tell me to stop complaining about Core's games :p What ever happened to people having individualized opinions about each separate game and liking some parts but not others? :whi:
In any case, it is impossible to get past cowboy guy without using a lot of medipacks (he constantly shoots Lara while climbing down the cliff face) so if someone got up to that point without pistols or a lot of medipacks then the game is unwinnable. That's poor level design. It should always be possible to get past the situation after a screw-up regardless of what is or isn't in one's inventory. It's poor level design to allow the player to get into an unwinnable situation without instant death.
And as for the pistols magically appearing if they haven't been obtained yet, that's just stupid and further emphasizes that Core never intended people to go past the cowboy before getting the pistols (in which case they should have blocked that area off until after the pistols have been obtained).
I'm not getting on you, only disagreed with you... :)
But I find it very hard to believe that they did not know that you could get to the Cowboy without the pistols. I did that the first time I played and more than a few times after that, until I started experimenting more with the game.
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 19:12
I'm not getting on you, only disagreed with you... :)
That was not directed at you :) I'm not offended anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter. I'm so used to the "Stop complaining about Crystal!" threads that it took me off guard for someone to tell me to stop complaining about Core :p
But I find it very hard to believe that they did not know that you could get to the Cowboy without the pistols. I did that the first time I played and more than a few times after that, until I started experimenting more with the game.
I know, that's what confuses me so much about it. On the one hand, how could they not have known that players would go there without the pistols? On the other hand, if they did intend for players to be able to get there without the pistols, why is it potentially impossible to get past it and why do the pistols magically appear in some situations when they haven't been obtained yet? It just feels to me like they didn't thoroughly think that part through.
I agree that that part of Natla's Mines isn't too well designed, but at least it's easy to avoid any screw ups once you know what you're doing. Granted, that doesn't make things any better if it's your first playthrough, but after that, it's not hard to remember to leave that area alone until you have your pistols back. Besides, how were Core meant to stop you from progressing in the level? An invisible wall that doesn't disappear until you kill the cowboy?
On another note, I'm surprised by how few votes Tomb of Qualopec and Tomb of Tihocan have had. I'd honestly have expected them to be close contenders for first place.
Uzi master
07-09-09, 19:31
I really like the tombs, so you don't like the coulors of qualopec huh anywho...That was not directed at you :) I'm not offended anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter. I'm so used to the "Stop complaining about Crystal!" threads that it took me off guard for someone to tell me to stop complaining about Core :p
I know, that's what confuses me so much about it. On the one hand, how could they not have known that players would go there without the pistols? On the other hand, if they did intend for players to be able to get there without the pistols, why is it potentially impossible to get past it and why do the pistols magically appear in some situations when they haven't been obtained yet? It just feels to me like they didn't thoroughly think that part through.
they programmed it so that if you run out of ammo Lara takes out her pistols, they couldn't change it at the time or at least didn't see it necesary and I suppose the pistols are just something they always give you, something else in the programming, thy just werent capable of walls and stuff at the time. also invisible walls would be even more lazy!
P.S. you don't need thet many medipacks, maby two tops
sorry just trying to make a point that they werent capable of everything and of course it would have been pretty obviouse that we could do it to them.
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 19:40
No invisible walls would be necessary. All they'd have to do is add a gate that only opens up once all three fuses have been placed in the control room (or once the pistols have been picked up, depending upon which would be easier to program). Ideally I think they should have put a destructable barrier that needed to be shot like the windows in TR2, but I understand they may not have developed that idea at the time so I think a gate would be just fine (and Natla's Mines had plenty of gates with different triggers to open, so it was definitely possible for Core to do at the time).
Uzi master
07-09-09, 19:48
ok a gate blocking you from going to the lava river? also possibly they may have though wed go there but not that wed finish the level...
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 19:51
ok a gate blocking you from going to the lava river? also possibly they may have though wed go there but not that wed finish the level...
Right, I'm thinking a gate in that area just before the cowboy says something and starts shooting, so that we'd be blocked from triggering his attack sequence until after we've gotten the pistols :)
Uzi master
07-09-09, 19:57
the main point of the fuse being there is to make carless players trigger the cowboy, thats the point.
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 20:02
the main point of the fuse being there is to make carless players trigger the cowboy, thats the point.
Well I don't like it. There's nothing to make the player turn back at that point so it's possible to go past and skip getting the pistols. They wanted to spring a surprise on us, fine, but I don't like the way it was handled in terms of level design.
Uzi master
07-09-09, 20:19
well its probablyh the last fuse your going to get, the other areas probably would have bean explored first to get the fuses.
Ward Dragon
07-09-09, 20:24
well its probablyh the last fuse your going to get, the other areas probably would have bean explored first to get the fuses.
Actually it's usually the first fuse I get :p That's why I thought the other fuses were past that point the first few times I played the game.
Uzi master
07-09-09, 20:49
I wonder if this is changing any opinions, anyway we shouild stop were getting off topic.
@Ward Dragon: Natla's Mines is actually quite easy to complete without any weapons and given the fact that the bosses aren't actually that difficult or do much damage to ones health would suggest that Core has left it open to the player to decide their COA but then for the sake of combat purposes in the next level, adds the weapons for the next level anyway. That's how I see the level from my own experience.
My question is, if the TR1 thread is getting disagreements like this then I dread to think what its going to be like when we get to the later games where fans a usually even more divided. I liked the idea of the 'best of' threads but it was an attempt, even if you didn't like the TR game in question to find positives in it anyway, this turns it on its head and asks you to find negatives in a game you really liked, even if its a case of choosing the 'least best' of those levels which is why I'm not voting. I don't think that's an overreaction at all because even if I was to vote, it would spoil the results because the question is 'Which is the worst level' whereas I would have to answer that question by considering 'Which is the least good level' implying that my vote would not be based on negative points but on a lack of positive ones which is very different. When we get to the later TR games, I may vote as I would have what I think to be genuine reasons for voting but until then, I'm just observing. In short, I disagree with the idea but I find it interesting enough to see what happens anyway. That's all I'll say as far as the nature of the poll goes.
Eddie Haskell
07-09-09, 21:51
^ That was one of my basic points.
It is a totally different thing to rate all of the levels according to your own scale, but in this case I would be adding my least favorite to everyone else's "worst" or however they portray it. Since this is entirely subjective and based on no real, definable parameters it really does not "say" anything, except in this particular case perhaps that some gamers are inept, lazy, easily bored, require more hand holding, etc. Just read the responses...
Tomb of Tihocan was my choice. I absolutely hate the water-level-changing aspect of it. Now, I love a good hard puzzle, as long as I can wrap my head around it. Like the water level-changing in Cistern. For some reason, I absolutely could not keep straight what switch did what to the water in ToT, so that was a huge turn-off. Running (or swimming) back and forth through the same spots is so tedious.
But that wasn't technically the reason I voted for it. I just really, really, hate killing Pierre.
Huh? The water puzzles in TOT are completely linear.
It is a totally different thing to rate all of the levels according to your own scale, but in this case I would be adding my least favorite to everyone else's "worst" or however they portray it. Since this is entirely subjective and based on no real, definable parameters it really does not "say" anything, except in this particular case perhaps that some gamers are inept, lazy, easily bored, require more hand holding, etc. Just read the responses...
And just because some people disagree with you or dare to dislike a level you like, it means that they are "inept, lazy, easily bored, require more hand holding, etc."? :mad: Does it even occur to you that this poll is meant to be subjective and does not pretend to be otherwise (for that matter, any poll, by definition, is subjective, since all it is is a collection of people's opinions).
Also, it seems to have completely escaped some people’s notice that this poll was meant to be humorous, a light-hearted attempt to poke a little fun at the games that we all otherwise love. The results of this particular poll or overall "tournament" are not supposed to be some be-and-end-all authority. They will not change anyone’s minds about their personal favourite and least favourite levels (and nor should they), and will be forgotten as soon as the polls end. In the meantime, if you dislike the idea, too bad, you’ll just have to put up with it.
... because the question is 'Which is the worst level' whereas I would have to answer that question by considering 'Which is the least good level' ...
Please read the question again. The poll question says "Which TR1 level is your LEAST favorite?" Yes, the thread title does have the word "worst" in it - as I explained earlier, it was meant not to be taken seriously.
Eddie Haskell
08-09-09, 18:15
And just because some people disagree with you or dare to dislike a level you like, it means that they are "inept, lazy, easily bored, require more hand holding, etc."? :mad: Does it even occur to you that this poll is meant to be subjective and does not pretend to be otherwise (for that matter, any poll, by definition, is subjective, since all it is is a collection of people's opinions).
Also, it seems to have completely escaped some people’s notice that this poll was meant to be humorous, a light-hearted attempt to poke a little fun at the games that we all otherwise love. The results of this particular poll or overall "tournament" are not supposed to be some be-and-end-all authority. They will not change anyone’s minds about their personal favourite and least favourite levels (and nor should they), and will be forgotten as soon as the polls end. In the meantime, if you dislike the idea, too bad, you’ll just have to put up with it.
Please read the question again. The poll question says "Which TR1 level is your LEAST favorite?" Yes, the thread title does have the word "worst" in it - as I explained earlier, it was meant not to be taken seriously.
It's their responses, not mine. :)
People have given perfectly legitimate reasons for disliking particular levels - for example, see Ward Dragon's extremely lucid explanations. But according to you, the only reason is that she and everyone else is "inept, lazy, easily bored, require more hand holding, etc."
Eddie Haskell
08-09-09, 18:36
People have given perfectly legitimate reasons for disliking particular levels - for example, see Ward Dragon's extremely lucid explanations. But according to you, the only reason is that she and everyone else is "inept, lazy, easily bored, require more hand holding, etc."
You should not take this personally, it is not meant to be so. And any generality is just that...there are exceptions to every rule.
Sam The Man
08-09-09, 18:44
I voted Atlantis. Just went completely away from the Tomb Raider feeling of the earlier levels. Im shocked Cistern is up there as its a genius level and miles better than the joke version in Anniversary. I can understand Natlas Mines getting votes but i still fairly enjoyed that level although not one of my faves.
ROFLMFAO at Palace Midas getting 2 votes.
Im aware that 1 of those votes was accidental as the person thought it was a best levels poll so that means that theres 1 person out there who hates one of the greatest levels off all time :(
I personally hate SFF and don't really dig Palace Midas either :D
In the spirit of this thread, which I see as harmless, I voted the Great Pyramid as my least favourite level, because truthfully it is.
However, I sympathesize with some of the other posters about this game being almost perfect and how it fits seamlessly together, one level after another, providing different yet complimentary experiences that build up to a sublime whole. And, so that to judge a level in isolation is actually probably an unfair thing to do for TR1.
Anyway, roll on getting to the games with the truly awful levels!!! Ho ho ho, I smell fun. :)
^Finally! Someone who actually used the word "fun" in this thread. I was beginning to think that a sense of humour was an endangered, if not extinct, animal in this forum. ;)
This poll was supposed to end today, but since Natla's Mines and Cistern are neck-to-neck at the moment, I'll leave it open for a day or two more, to see which one "wins".
^Can't you have the rest of the polls running at the same time to make things quicker?
I guess there's no reason I can't start the TR2 poll now. Coming up in a few minutes.
Edit: The TR2 Least Favourite Level Tournament (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=158389) has begun. :D
In the spirit of it now being about the 'least favourite' I've voted Caves.
And yes, semantics are important to me which is why didn't vote before. :p
The poll question hasn't changed - it was the same before.
^But there was a contradiction with the thread title was have been explained and changed in the TR2 thread which means that its now 100% clear what I'm voting for.
da tomb raider!
08-09-09, 22:28
I voted for Caves. Whilst I still think highly of the level, it's probably the weakest level of the game, given its short length and easy difficulty.
I guess there's no reason I can't start the TR2 poll now. Coming up in a few minutes.
Edit: The TR2 Least Favourite Level Tournament (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=158389) has begun. :D
I mean all of the polls could be up at the same time. :p
Ward Dragon
08-09-09, 23:14
You should not take this personally, it is not meant to be so. And any generality is just that...there are exceptions to every rule.
So am I an exception or not? :pi:
You don't really have to answer that. I'm just in a joking mood right now :p
^Finally! Someone who actually used the word "fun" in this thread. I was beginning to think that a sense of humour was an endangered, if not extinct, animal in this forum. ;)
You definitely have more courage than I do :tmb: I should have done this series myself, but my cynicism got the better of me and I didn't want to deal with it if it would end badly :o Let me know if you need any help with the other polls :)
Sgt BOMBULOUS
09-09-09, 15:15
For those adverse to this excercise... The results of this poll will really just reflect the exact opposite of a "favorite poll". Whichever level got the LEAST votes for favorite would by default be the audiences least favorite overall. Should we also refrain from picking a favorite since this nasty information will inevitably surface?
stereopathic
09-09-09, 16:02
aw, why pick on natla's mines? i love that level. :(:D
i voted tomb of tihocan because it lacks the epic feel that the tomb of a great ruler should have had, and for the most part, it's sadly forgettable.
You definitely have more courage than I do :tmb: I should have done this series myself, but my cynicism got the better of me and I didn't want to deal with it if it would end badly :o Let me know if you need any help with the other polls :)
"Courage" isn't the word ... try "foolhardiness". ;)
Thanks for the help offer - I might need to take you up on that, in case real life intrudes and I'm not around for a few days (which I think might be the case ... not sure yet. :o)
For those adverse to this excercise... The results of this poll will really just reflect the exact opposite of a "favorite poll". Whichever level got the LEAST votes for favorite would by default be the audiences least favorite overall. Should we also refrain from picking a favorite since this nasty information will inevitably surface?
Good point. :tmb:
Of course, from the practical point of view, it doesn't necessarily work out so precisely - even if most people don't like a particular level enough to vote for it as their favourite, that could just mean that's it's a mediocre level, not necessarily their least favourite. For example, in the Best of the Best poll, the ones with the least votes were Tomb of Tihocan and Obelisk of Khamoon - neither of which are contenders for this one.
I Need A Map
10-09-09, 21:57
I cant choose, I couldnt choose and I Wont choose!
All the levels are so diverse that its hard to say what I hate and what I love.
Tomb of Qualopec I chose, because that is probably the only level in TR1 which I think the TRA version is actually better.
Ok, I think it's time to bring this poll to a close. It's gone on two days longer than it was supposed to, and we finally have a clear-cut winner: Natla's Mines, which wins the great honour of being the least favourite level of TR1, with 21 votes. Let's give it a big hand, folks, for this great achievement. *applause* :D
The Least favourite level of TR2 (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=158389) poll is still going strong and the TR3 poll will be up in a day or so. :)
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