An attempted scientific analysis of a classic [Archive]

Eddie Haskell

08-09-09, 18:32

What makes the original classics the stupendous game that it was? Why is this game as venerated as it is? Was the original experience all those years ago simply a natural consequence considering the major step forward in gaming that it was? Are most of the older gamers simply pining for the old days and gazing back through time with rose-colored glasses? These responses are all given when the original is discussed, but no one has ever tried to scientifically ask questions and request that others analyze the game for this purpose. Just what is it inside this game that makes the original so special?

I have heard many theories, everything from the splendid simplicity of the game to all things Lara, and that the older gamers over-glorify the experience. But what I’d really like to find out is specifically and in full detail just what is the reason that this game is so special, and exactly what are the specific gaming components that make it so. I do not want simple “feelings”, I want scientific-like details that can lay out your theory so that we can get to the bottom of it. We can go step by step through the game and analyze each level and cutscene to determine what if any consequences they might have on the game in total.

First, I ask that you watch the opening videos, and comment on just what the creators were trying to present here with this multimedia introduction to her adventures. How do these videos set the tone for the game and for the personality of Lara (or if they do this at all)? Watch carefully, and comment in relation to this thread and its goals.

We'll get to game play, controls, level design, enemies, etc, as we progress level by level. If this thread does not appeal to anyone, than so be it, and I'll ask a moderator to end it. It has been a major bug in my mind for a long time, and I would really like to know in as precise detail as possible just what makes this game what it is, and with the help of the fine intellect in this great forum I think that we can.

Also, do not feel intimidated by this seemingly difficult thread, or by any feelings of inadequacy or intelligence. This is not rocket science, and sometimes the answer is surprisingly simple and other times more complex, but your analysis is yours alone and cannot be rebutted by anyone. What I hope to discover will more than likely come from consensus and discussion, not from a lone supergenius. :)

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rr_carroll

08-09-09, 23:17

Wow, ambitious! And interesting. I’ll make my own general remarks, then get down to business.

I’m sure we can find artistic mechanisms that point to psychological effects of greater or lesser power. Naturally, these have large subjective components, and there will be a range of opinions on every aspect; so I hope many people will post some specifics, so you can collect each subject into a consensus. A “scientific” approach might be to develop a questionnaire, with ratings from 1 to 5, but I’m sure it’s too early for that.

Intro Cinematic

We see what appears to be an atomic explosion in the New Mexico desert. A disk crashes into the surface. It seems to open, revealing a dim figure inside. This fixes the event in time as several decades ago, and presents us with a mystery to get us interested. It seems that technology beyond that of modern civilization is involved.

Then we see a scene that introduces 3 game characters and describes the point of the game in overall terms. Lara is an intrepid adventurer, as we see from the Bigfoot headline. (“Stamps Out” Bigfoot – the game doesn’t take itself too seriously). She reacts to Larson with a remark that shows complexity, but is not off-putting (females can admire her easy confidence, males can be intrigued by her approachability). Larson acts with unschooled country manners. Then we meet the corporate executive Jacqueline Natla, who pointedly reveals Larson’s complete flunkyhood. Natla proceeds directly to her own goals, in good stereotypically-greedy American manner; but like any successful executive, she knows who to manipulate others. Lara loftily states her lack of financial motivation, so Natla quickly shifts to appealing to Lara’s sporting instincts. Lara’s little smile at the end shows much – interest in the project and its mystery, but probably also amusement at Natla’s attempted manipulation.

To sum up, we learn a little of an ancient and powerful mystery, Lara as a capable and self-confident young women, Larson as a slightly smarmy subordinate, and Natla as a strong character – probably an antagonist, but we’re not sure. The faintly annoying American stereotypes make it easy to start thinking of them as potential opposition.

More later. I doubt I'm up to this level of detail for the whole game.

Eddie Haskell

09-09-09, 01:23

Well, I see the pleasantries have been exchanged... :o

I should point out at the "scientific" wording in the thread title was meant to elicit responses that were not so much emotional but from ones intellect. A careful dissection of the game in an attempt to perhaps unlock the secret(s) to its success. We may not even come close, but perhaps we might hit on something. It's worth a try.

And rr_carroll did say "several decades", I think that one can then determine that 1945 fits that quite well... :)

I will hold back my own observations of these opening videos until I read more responses.

Thanks in advance to all who choose to work with us. I trust that we can refrain from jumping on one another and work together in this grand experiment.

scremanie

09-09-09, 01:31

I'm scared :o

But does it really matter when Natla was free anyways? :p

All I know is that it was ages ago :p

Seeing as how she was meant to be in the public eye, would people not notice that she never ages? :confused:

how suspicious... :pi:

I BET THEIR ALL IN ON IT!! http://i27.tinypic.com/2805nye.jpg

BUT, anyways, nice thread eddie :D

I have not read your post throughly yet, I just skimmed through all the comments :D

*goes back and read every line* :)

larafan25

09-09-09, 01:38

how do we do this scientific-like?:)

anyways, I' m not sure about the cutscenes and such, because I don't think there is anything truly scientific about them, simply scenes made the way they were made to get the player interested in the sotry and introduce some main characters:)

I just started playing tomb raider 1 and am at the collesium...and have yet to feel the feeling others say they have felt....I have actually been more scared by things in anniversary...but whatever:)

I don't think there is truthfully anything scientific about players loving this game, as it is tomb raider itself they love, and they may happen to love this one better than others...

tomb raider came into the world much like uncharted did....

at a new age of gaming and came in strong and as something...new:)

I think that some people played the game and it wasn't for them...and then others are here at tomb raider forums:p

I cab't describe it with science as it is pure feeling....

1. I like video games
2.this genre captures my attention because I love to explore huge lush places that have dark caves and halways with moments that scare you...it offers nothing scientific just pure feeling and emotion:)

I must have missed the connection everyone else had with the game and still do...but I cannot explain it in science, esspecially because I haven't felt it yet in this game...just hasn't clicked...

people can hate me for saying this...but I think it was the time...

alot of the players of tomb raider 1 and it's other classic friends played them when they were new or when they were still hip(if you catch my drift) so they were not as smart as they are now so the puzzles seemed more difficult, and the environments seemed so confusing...

and I think that is what people are having with crystals games, they are young and not that smart when it comes to the puzzles and probably have the same feeling playing those games to....

however both cores games and crystals games fail to meet my expectations of a tomb raider game:)

the original is failing at the moment to meet my expectations:)

they don't allow me to feel free, in control, and immersed into the environments and the gaming world.

I'd also like to say...that we need to explore our emotions we had when playing the games and THINK about them to produce anything at all.

emotions and smarts put together works better then us just blindly guessing why we think they were good...we have to look at our experiences...and alot of them were emotional:)

hera7days

09-09-09, 02:03

This sounds like a great thread. I can't wait to hear everyone's responses! Sadly, my first response will be somewhat lacking. My reaction to cutscenes in Tomb Raider (and most video games) can be summed up in two words. "Ooh" and "aah." But this time I tried to watch them with my brain, and not just my eyes.

You ask how the videos set the tone for the game and Lara, well, my initial reaction is quote Lara. "I only play for sport." This line not only tells us about Lara- that she's adventurous, probably reckless, and most of all, truly interested in exploring exotic locations (tomb raiding for the sake of tomb raiding, not to meet some other end). It also tells us about the game itself. Since Lara obviously enjoys a challenge, that's what we will experience as players. Not to mention, it pretty much guarantees sequels because Lara does what she does out of passion, rather than one particular goal- in other words, there's no real end to her "story."

Then I watched the second video, and that greatly represents the feel of the levels. There's the sense of wonder over being transported to somewhere far from the comfort of one's living room (or bedroom, or whatever the case may be) It starts off all peaceful, but you just know some ****'s about to go down, because Lara Croft is apparently badass enough to stamp out Bigfoot. She isn't going into any la-de-da froo-froo Barbie caves. (Or maybe I just feel nervous because I've already watched the cutscene and know what's going to happen.) Whatever the case, the gameplay is mostly calm, but with an underlying aura of unease because you never know when something's gonna throw you for a loop, like a bear jumping out to say hello. This cutscene depicts that perfectly.

Oh, and I love the camera work in those videos.

scremanie

09-09-09, 02:06

Okay :)

I have read it through and through :)

So what you're asking me is to prove my facts of why I thought this game was so great? :)

Okay :)

lol, its actually a pretty tough questions when you think about it. But here goes.

I think that this game was so popular in its time because it was so new, so fresh and it was something different. There was no other character like Lara Croft, or any other game like Tomb Raider. The graphics were amazing for its time, and it was released in that era of girl power. It really showed that Lara Croft was a tough woman, and she would stop at nothing to get what she wanted.

And to me, the opening scenes show us exactly who and what Lara Croft is.

And intriguing and mysterious character who is hired by a woman to go hunting through some caves for some old artifact. lol, seems weird.. but that was Lara, and I don't think that you can express what this game is really like. Its kind of an untold story, that left you coming back for more to see who this character was and what she was going to do next.

You knew that she was a smart woman, and a woman with needs. She needed to be free, and I guess that was special because it made you feel free from the world when you were playing it. It just made you excited, and happy, and scared and all these emotions you had for this character. You grew attached to her and when she got hurt, you would get angry or upset.

It was, or is, just an amazing game that keeps you coming back for more :)

rr_carroll

09-09-09, 05:46

Well, being in 1945 is an interesting fact, because it means Natla has been on the loose for 50 years, a nice, round number.

Eddie, am I correct in thinking that you're curious about how the impact of the game was achieved? Some of the factors are cinematic, which would be framing of shots, editing, dialog, etc. (I forgot to discuss them, thank you for bring it up hera7days). Unfortunately, you probably have to be trained in film making to be consciously aware of all of them.

Similar things exist for game play, but again may require expertise. Perhaps each of us can notice some of them.

Snow FMV

Steep mountains - blowing winds - menacing music - and we see two tiny figures trudging across the snow. A good establishing shot, taken by a helicopter camera, apparently.

Then a middle distance shot, clearly showing a native guide, with a hooded figure in the foreground. Who is it? A moment of suspense, the head turns - it's Lara Croft! Of course it is, but it's a dramatic effect, like the curtain rising on Act 1.

I'm not going to describe every shot, but one more: through the opened door, the guide sees glowing eyes. Wolves charge out. Then we see the camera zoom in to show the guide's look of shock. But it's not a zoom, it's a dolly shot! The whole picture doesn't enlarge, the background stays the same size! In actual filming, you do this by putting the camera on wheels (the dolly) and moving it toward the subject. The background is practically at the same distance, so you don't see any enlargement.

This has two good effects: this is the kind of thing you see in a physically real scene, so it increases the realism of the FMV, especially because this works on us, I suggest, in an unconscious way. Secondly, the use of a dolly vs. a zoom has a cinematic effect something like disorientation, though I'm not so sure exactly what, not being trained in filmmaking.

So I believe this FMV appeals to us by using known principles of filmmaking, and using them well.

And Eddie, I never noticed the dolly shot until you asked me to think about this. It's pretty odd to be thinking "the camera is on a dolly" for an animated film! :D

Dennis's Mom

09-09-09, 12:38

There is so little real detail in these scenes; they're almost a sketch. Just enough to get you going. Most modern games give a lot more detail in the exposition, make a more deliberate attempt to make you feel something about the characters.

What is so great about these two scenes is how perfectly create the quintessential Tomb Raider feeling--the big doors close, and you're alone. The level spreads out before you like a feast, and you're both nervous and excited. The story no longer matters, Lara no longer matters, the adventure matters.

Eddie Haskell

09-09-09, 14:46

I have been trying to figure out just what was brilliant game design and what was fortuitous accident in the classic for a long, long time. But I was always held back by time, memory and emotion. Everything in life is a victim or beneficiary of time and timing. Was the game simply the right game at the right time? Was the fact that it was many things to a varied cross section of people an accidental consequence, or was it just stupendous forethought and terrific game design? Was the clean and fluid game design a result of attempted simplicity and not of careful planning and/or repeated trial and error? Or was this their idea of an epic? Who was Lara, and did they define her sufficiently for the purposes of the game? Did they believe that the game would spawn many, many sequels, and did they create this seminal game with this in mind? These are some things that I hope that we can gain an insight into, although having an original design team member answer all of the questions would be the best way to do it (Fat Chance...).

To begin, I have never actually attempted to analyze the game to any great extent, I was always sufficiently content with appreciating the game for the masterpiece that it represented to me. However, after joining this forum I began to read about a different game and a different Lara, one that was not known to me from playing the same game. And yet, these individuals appreciated and loved the game as I did, but many times in a completely different way. I began to attempt to comprehend this situation thinking that it was simple, but as I asked questions and read many posts I found that it was much deeper and more complicated...or was it?

Now, I'll start by analyzing the opening vids. My impression of the first one was that the designers attempted to show us a couple of important things. First, that Lara was already a well known and established adventurer, and that she had a burning desire to explore for her own personal needs. Notice how after she says the line "I only play for sport" that she is actually turning to walk away, only to turn slightly back at the word Peru. Then as Natla goes into the details of the danger and describes the artifact, Lara is at rapt attention, and ends with the smile that one gets when anticipating a lot of fun. In this way, they were giving us a character who lives for adventuring and exploring.

But I should also point out that Dennis's Mom is also correct in that nowhere in here are any details, just an outline (and in my opinion) to allow us the freedom to use our imaginations to fill in the blanks. Larsen and even Natla are basically Hollywood stereotypes, nothing bold or unique about either of them.

I do think that the opening explosion from the atomic test that releases Natla was brilliant. It takes a real life event and adds another consequence to this noteworthy action, and shows us the possibilities and powers of what we may be up against.

Now the video that introduces us to the adventure has a few noteworthy aspects. First, that Lara is a very capable archaeologist. No, not in the dictionary sense of the word, but she can read and interpret ancient writings and such. She immediately discovers the method of entry into the caves obviously due to her trained eye. Second, she is a woman of action, incredible athleticism and great weapons skill. As she cuts the rope (yes, I know that it was probably unnecessary, but they were showing her as very tough I think) she not only falls to the ground but fires both pistols simultaneously at the attacking wolves. I think that she is going all out to kill the wolves before they take out her guide, and her shout through her gritted teeth display this prominently. So thirdly, she feels for others as well, and is not the "bad-ass monster" that some make her out to be.

But to me, the best moment is when those doors close behind her, she takes off her glasses, and raises an eyebrow. Even with the old technology from back then, we can see in this shot that she is A)not afraid, B) very determined, and C) extremely confident.

So, what do these introductory videos tell us? I don't think they tell us very much about what is to come, but they do tell us something about Lara. She is tough, agile, accomplished, and quite capable of taking care of herself. It grants us the beginnings of the basic plot, and showcases our adversary (to be known later) and her flunky. As for how all of this this fits in with the gamer, for me, I never worried or thought about that in any way. In fact, before I came in here I could not even tell you much about any of the cutscenes or vids. Basically I played the game as myself and more than ignored the story. To many of you that sounds funny doesn't it? But I have read in here that others felt the same way.

In a bit we will look at the first level and try to break down the controls, game play, level design and how it all fit together. This should allow us to better identify some important answers..and quite possibly open up more questions. :)

Dennis's Mom

09-09-09, 18:34

Well, Shakespeare was a product of timing and convenient deaths. Not bad company. :D

But timing alone does not explain it. Surely the innovation in 3D gameplay played a huge part, and the novelty of Lara herself cannot be ignored. The impact of the Playstation console cannot be ignored either.

However, as I was reading what you wrote, three words ran through my mind:

" . . . the luxury of discovery. . ."

The game spells nothing out for you. It gives you a brief "pamphlet" for your trip, and the rest is up to you. No signposts, no voice overs, no training text, no helpful strangers, it's you and the level. Through careful observation and manipulation of the avatar, you discover the level.

rr_carroll

09-09-09, 19:45

...we can see in this shot that she is A)not afraid, B) very determined, and C) extremely confident...

As I read those words, I started to get goose bumps in memory of the mounting thrill I felt there when I first played! That video really did its job!

Eddie Haskell

09-09-09, 20:01

As I read those words, I started to get goose bumps in memory of the mounting thrill I felt there when I first played! That video really did its job!

It did, at least to you and I. But I hope that others attempt to delve into this as we have. I do not want everyone to agree with me and my findings, I was hoping for an eventful discussion, complete with disagreements and vigorous debate. I know that I don't have the answers...or perhaps I really do. I hope to find out.

iamlaracroft

10-09-09, 00:39

Okay, well, I don't know how much of a scientific analysis I can provide, but I can certainly try to paint a picture of my first impression of Tomb Raider.

For starters, it was Christmas of '97 that my parents surprised me with this radical new game console and about 25 new games to play it with. I was 11 years old and had never heard of Playstation, let alone Tomb Raider or Crash Bandicot. It was a frightfully cold winter that year, bone-chillingly cold actually, and eerily calm outside (which used to be the norm here in south Texas but lately the winters have been humid and mild :().
My dad set up my new Playstation almost immediately after I opened all the rest of my presents and in my quiet, chilly room, lit only by the brownish-gray daylight of an overcast December day, I began to play Tomb Raider alone.

At 11 (and even still to this day at age 23, really) I had no idea what the hell the opening sequence was supposed to mean or what relevance it had to the story and game itself. For me, the snake and cracked dry soil of New Mexico were strangely out of place and confusing. I understood to a point that the weird disk thing that dropped from the sky was something mystical and maybe important, but I certainly wasn't analyzing or looking any deeper into its placement. I didn't put two and two together, and had a very hard time understanding what exactly that mechanical unlocking thing deep in the newly-formed hole in the ground was. Looking at the YouTube video now, I can see that it's Natla in there, but at the very start of the game and age 11, I had no clue. Also, in retrospect, I think it would take several complete play-throughs for any player to get that :rolleyes:

So while the New Mexico cutscene flew right over my head, I really took to the scene with Lara, Natla and Larson. I studied every detail, listened to every ambient background noise. I loved the way the sun beamed in through the windows and bounced off the checkered floors.
I instantly fell in love with Lara and her personality. She was dismissive, but not off-putting. She was stylish, but not Barbie. I immediately wanted to be like her. I watched this cutscene over and over and over, memorizing her lines, lip-synching with Natla and enacting Lara's parts. I should also mention that I fell in love with Natla and her voice too. She really struck a chord with me. I really gravitated to these powerful women, their tough-as-nails exteriors and attitudes. I liked that they weren't especially sweet or gracious. They were dry and curt. They commanded respect without having to sacrifice their dignity. I really liked that.

I became obsessed with Tibet and Himalayas and Calcutta and Peru--anything having to do with Tomb Raider, I was on like glue. I'd decided I wanted to become an archaeologist and started 'studying' egyptian hieroglyphics, pouring over all kinds of books on exploration and ancient civilizations. My focus waned, I grew bored, but always came back to the game. I identified 100% with Lara. I became her. I felt that I was her. She was me. I thought, this is who I was always meant to be--strong, athletic, wickedly intelligent, witty, sharp-tongued, capable, and able to speak every language on earth (lol). That she was gorgeous was just the icing on the kick ass cake.
I would practice my British accent, talking to myself over and over, pretending to say archaeologist stuff, conversations with colleagues, etc. I told myself "I am Lara Croft".

:D

There's so much more to my first impressions of TR, but I'll have to finish later. I've typed enough for one day :p

*on a different note, in watching the Calcutta scene just now I heard something I'd never heard before. At 1:24, after Natla says "sheer walls of ice", I distinctly hear Lara say "mmmmmmm".
In 12 years of playing TR, I've never heard that. How did I miss it??
I'm listening to the cutscene with headphones, so maybe that makes a difference. But I'd always thought that "I'm sorry, I only play for sport" was Lara's last line in the scene! Cool!! :jmp:

MMmmmmmMmmm! :D

aquaflute

10-09-09, 02:09

Since I don't really have a lot of time I will just make a few quick points here about the first 2 fmvs.

To me tomb raider (at least TR1) is all about mysticism. It's a game focusing on ancient and sometimes lost civilizations. Stuff that we as a mordern people can only know from records, ruins and traditions. TR1 game starts with the Inca civilization which I think is just a perfect choice. We know the Incas developed itself independently in a rather isolated region. That's the second fmv's message to us, a woman and a guide, in a desolate snowy mountain ridge, found an ancient Incan gate, a lost civilization discovered by a lonely company in a lonely area. So the atmosphere setting right from the start is breathtakingly mysterious and strong. Then there was the scene where Lara solves the puzzle on the door and opens it. This introduces another great theme of the game, puzzle solving. Then there was the indroduction to the pistols which we will depend a lot upon later in the game. 4 wolves vs 1 woman and the woman wins. With the death of the guide we can there is no one else to depend upon but yourself and your pistols. Then we have the intro of Lara as she took off her glasses. As people already mentioned that she is very confident and very determined. Another point I want to make here is that the prepossessing beauty of Lara in that one glimpse. Who has the air of mysiticism in her appearance that captivates you at first sight. So after this second fmv, we have a mysterious, isolated Incan tomb and a strong yet stunningly beautiful protagonist. Who wouldn't want to play an adventure game like this???

Now just one thing in particular I want to say about the first fmv. When I first saw it the thing that really got my attention was the snake. The snake has nothing to do with the scene or plot whatsoever, yet it really sets the an important theme of the game, the creepiness. It somehow warns you that you will encounter nasty things in the game. And we do indeed, mummies, raptors, mutants you name it! So despite being a very old game and blah blah, the game really is perfect right from the start, with 2 fmvs that not just attracts you but also tells you exactly what this game is about and what to expect. Takes you right into the mood of exploring and playing.

Ward Dragon

10-09-09, 02:56

I won't go into a minute analysis, but I'll put a few thoughts that I don't think have been quite mentioned yet (although people may have implied it or touched upon it already). Also, these thoughts are obviously in retrospect after knowing the full story. No way do I think anyone would consciously make these connections the first time seeing the intro. I don't even think Core would have necessarily bothered to think this deeply into it considering how much research they put into Greek god names :whi: But anyway...

First, the snake -- the snake itself usually represents treachery, so it might possibly be symbolism for Natla's numerous betrayals since we see the snake just before she is released from her imprisonment. Also, biblically the snake is responsible for convincing Eve to eat the apple and gain knowledge. Natla's after the Scion, a huge source of knowledge (or did I get that from TRA? Anyhow...) and if she succeeds with her plans she will put humanity through even more hardships than the biblical punishments Adam and Eve received.

The nuke -- power, devastation, the effects of radiation poisoning last for decades and slowly kill people or worse yet get passed on to the next generation. This is what releases Natla. She bides her time for decades and infiltrates corporate America to gain the resources she needs to accomplish her goal, which is to kill a large number of people in order to make future generations more "perfect" in her eyes. She thinks that by forcing the human race to survive such devastation, she will force humanity to become stronger.

The cryotube -- Natla was not killed. Instead she was put in stasis, harmless during her imprisonment but still fully intact and very dangerous once she escapes. Her enemies were unable to kill her thus her plans survive and she picks up right where she left off whenever she was last stopped. This shows her resilience and foreshadows how difficult it will be to kill her later on (or rather that she'd come back from seeming death, nevermind that gameplay-wise she is easy to defeat :p). It could also serve as a warning that the past will always resurface eventually. Natla's coming back to haunt us now, so maybe the nuke that released her will come back to haunt future generations, or rather nuclear weapons in general will still be around so even if Natla gets defeated it's still possible for someone else to finish what she started.

Eyes in the dark -- It is so much more suspenseful, exciting, interesting, and scary to imply danger rather than to blatantly show what the exact threat is. Showing the glowing eyes coming out of the darkness sets the tone of the game. We know that something bad is waiting for us, but we don't yet know what it is. That horrible wonderful feeling of not knowing what's just around the corner is to me a huge part of TR. We will discover eventually what it is, but there is a glorious time of nervous excited anticipation in between becoming vaguely aware of what might be ahead versus actually discovering it in exact detail. That in-between-time is essential for building up suspense, increasing immersion, and creating an atmosphere that is tense, foreboding, and irresistible.

I have been trying to figure out just what was brilliant game design and what was fortuitous accident in the classic for a long, long time.

I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. I wouldn't love the game any more or less knowing the exact specifics of its creation. It is fun to wonder about it, though :)

Basically I played the game as myself and more than ignored the story. To many of you that sounds funny doesn't it? But I have read in here that others felt the same way.

To be honest, I didn't even realize TR games had a cohesive story until around TR4, and even then I had trouble paying attention to the stories in the classics. I was always hyper-active and so focused on the level itself that by the time I got to the next cutscene, I had already forgotten everything that had happened previously. In the final level of TR1 I didn't even realize I had met Natla before in the game. I wondered who the hell she was and where she came from :vlol: Same for Bartoli and Willard. I remembered Von Croy in TR4, but forgot some of the specifics at various points which screwed up my understanding of what was going on. With TR5, again, I only recognized Winston in the FMV's and didn't really notice any major story in any of the levels. I had trouble following AOD's story as well for similar reasons, plus that a few kind of important background stories were cut from the game. My involvement in the story seems to be inversely proportional to my engrossment in the gameplay :p

Eddie Haskell

10-09-09, 13:20

Wow, great reading all of you. :) It is always interesting and most times educational to read the various and diverse opinions and observations from individuals who are commenting on the very same thing. Again, excellent stuff!

The subtleties of sound and vision can be lost many times if they are done poorly, directed to the wrong audience or ignored by same. I for one came up from old school gaming, and unless I was hit over the head with it I was going to miss it. Games were meant to be played not watched, and as I have stated until I came to this forum I really never noticed or appreciated the videos for the storytelling and plot details. I always played a game as myself, and therefore the story was going to mine...regardless of the creators intentions.

This is more a result of my upbringing in gaming. I was a PC gamer through and through, and I had not ever played (or wanted to play) a "storytelling" game such as the consoles were featuring way back when. I was a strategy/FPS/RPG guy and therefore I was always myself in the game.

Reading iamlaracroft's excellent recollection of her early experiences with the game shows that these vids were effective and noteworthy for some. Although she states that much of it went by her, she garnered a vision of the character and adventure that made a lasting impression. And I think that this was their desire anyway, to introduce you to Lara and make a definite impression as to who and what she was. iamlaracroft's wonderful accounting of that Christmas day with Tomb Raider made me smile; first-rate writing, I felt I was there with you. What a magical moment the first look at this game provides to many people!

And aquaflute, superb, superb work. Exceptionally analytical and detailed. Great summation of what these vids are supposed to do for the game and to the gamer. You see it as a kind of mini-introduction to all of the things that we must see and do in the game. And I see it as well, and I can imagine that this was their goal all along.

Summarizing the complete game already WD? Let's not get ahead of ourselves. :)
But you have brought up some great points and ideas involving symbolism and visual cues, something that becomes very evident in these vids as we watch them over and over. But what was deliberate and had real meaning, and what was accidental and fortuitous? Was anything blatantly wrong or out of place? What could have been better? Were these videos "perfect" in the sense of establishing the character and who she was? How much do these vids contribute to the legacy, quality and nuts&bolts of the game?

And WD, I have read from many more in here that played the game as you and I did. So we are not weird or stupid, just conditioned to play games a certain way I think. Ones gaming history has a lot to do with that I believe. Also, I laughed when I read your memories of the games concerning meeting your adversaries. I concur by the way, and I am just a bit embarrassed to say since it was not the games fault that I was overlooking the story elements.

And I would be remiss if I did not mention DM's point. " . . . the luxury of discovery. . ." We'll get to that soon enough... :)

We'll wrap this up this bit after a bit more conversation and then we can come to some conclusions. But the questions I have raised in a previous paragraph need to answered...

Dennis's Mom

10-09-09, 14:23

what was deliberate and had real meaning, and what was accidental and fortuitous? Was anything blatantly wrong or out of place? What could have been better? Were these videos "perfect" in the sense of establishing the character and who she was? How much do these vids contribute to the legacy, quality and nuts&bolts of the game?

Well, you're discussing art and writing, and I am of the mind that "deliberate" attempts to create art (or writing) are usually subpar because great art and writing is usually sub-conscious.

What makes these videos good is that they are telling the story. The character of Lara is revealed to us as the story is told. That's a distinction I think is important to make since so many people confuse information about the character as "characterization." They throw out adjectives as if they mean something. I'm so sick of reading "bada$$". :confused: What these videos do is tell us about Lara without telling us about Lara. We see her reacting to people and situations, and although trite, actions do speak louder than words.

The one bit of telling writing, IMO, is the "I only play for sport" line. The line could have easily been written a negative: "I don't want money" or "I'm not interested in money." But it's written to tell us what Lara wants-- "sport" (and not "fun," another possibility that would have said something else entirely.) I've always thought this line very revealing and tells us volumes about Lara.

These video are the antithesis of most current video game cutscenes. They set the stage, but the story is really the tombs. In a way, they are almost like stage direction at the beginning of a play, those few lines of italics meant to set the scene for the actors before the real play begins. Can't you hear the stage manager? "Cue doors closing, cue lights " and the show begins. They perfectly build to the moment when the "play" begins, and we take over. In acting terms, they're a rising inflection, they beg for a response. It's hard to watch them and NOT want to play the game.

Eddie Haskell

11-09-09, 13:20

^DM
No question that forced creativity is difficult and not desirable. The imagination works best when it is allowed the freedom to do its thing when it wants to, not on a schedule.

I do think that there is some attempt at characterization in these vids, albeit kind of simple and subtle. But the bad-ass Lara that some discuss they do not display. If we were to characterize Lara simply from these vids we would have a very rough outline of an adventurous, strong, knowledgeable and accomplished woman. Not much more really. However I totally agree with your assessment of the "sport" line, it does speak volumes...that's for sure.

And I 100% agree with your assessment of today's games in reference to storytelling and direction (and I have been preaching this forever). They try and micromanage your experience to such an extent that I fear that soon we will be practically spectators pressing an occasional key. In these vids to start this game, your example is spot on. :)

krycekuva

11-09-09, 17:37

i think its the suspence what captured our attention and the radical change of directions the game granted us...

first the atomic bomb... nothing could be more distant than that in the game.

then a hero(in) where only the glasses were seeing. and finally the chance for this heroin to probe herself in front of us killing all kind of rabid wolfs.

nobody would expect a hot girl to jump from such place into a pack of wolves, and nobody expected her to be... that tought...

rr_carroll

11-09-09, 19:33

I think Dennis's Mom has already made my point, but I'll state it my own way: even for people with expertise, it's hard to create a great work. Have you heard of Sturgeon's Law, "90% of everything is junk"? (He was explaining why 90% of science fiction is junk.) I'm sure the game designers had experience, technical knowledge and talent, but they also had luck. They were among the first to be able to take advantage of the increasing power of platforms. And they had tastes close enough to their target audience to create something appealing. But to have it all gel into something great, that's probably beyond their control.

Of course we can learn much from noting specifically how some of the magic is created, but the same elements will be found in some middle-of-the-road games.

BTW, I looked more closely at the dolly shot on the guide - the mountains shrink a little. So we have a combined dolly shot/reverse zoom, which, IMO, all focuses attention on the guide's shock, and throws in a feeling of vertigo to unsettle us even more! (Please note the distinction: what the "camera" does are facts, how they affect us are my opinions.)

Ward Dragon

12-09-09, 00:03

But the bad-ass Lara that some discuss they do not display.

I think it's fairly bad-ass to jump off a mountain with pistols blazing and single-handedly fight off a pack of wolves :D

Although I think when most people refer to Lara as "bad-ass" they are referring to scenes from the later games such as the ending of TR3, or the way she deals with Pierre in TR5. I personally think the TR2 ending is the best game ending in the series :D I'm probably getting ahead of myself again :p I find it very difficult to discuss each FMV in a vacuum without analyzing how it fits into the overall picture (how it builds upon previous cutscenes and/or sets the scene for later cutscenes).

I'll also say that I agree with Dennis's Mom and rr_carroll that TR1 was the result of a combination of factors including skill and luck. In terms of the game's overall success, the TR1 team was definitely very talented and really took advantage of being in the right place at the right time. As for the actual game itself, well, we've all heard the story about how Toby Gard accidentally clicked something and made Lara's boobs far bigger than he intended to and then they decided to keep it that way. So, what other fortuitous accidents happened which ended up having a considerable effect on the game?

For example, what if they had Lara's ledge detection angle a little wider so that we could jump at ledges at more of an angle and have Lara grab it rather than bounce off. How different would the game be then? It would probably be a bit easier, but then maybe they could have added in more jumps to take advantage of Lara's expanded ability in order to vary the gameplay a bit, so the game would be a bit different. Would it be better or worse? Who knows. But little things like that could have had a great impact on how the game turned out.

So I think part of it is skill, part of it is luck, and part of it is the team's judgment of what to prioritize and when to keep a mistake instead of trying again to hit the original goal.

Dennis's Mom

12-09-09, 13:23

I think it's fairly bad-ass to jump off a mountain with pistols blazing and single-handedly fight off a pack of wolves :D

I suppose it is. But it's no more "bada$$" than anything Lara has done in the CD games, but supposedly Lara isn't "bada$$" enough in them. Watching this video, Lara clearly has an interest in preserving human life, even checks his pulse as if she were going to scrap the whole adventure if he were still alive to save. Otherwise, why check? She clearly doesn't spend any time mourning the dead guy, which IMO shows a more pragmatic and ****ed off nature than heartlessness. She almost turns back to the doorway as if to say "Son of a *****in' cave! You killed my guide! I'll show you!"

hera7days

12-09-09, 15:31

I think it's fairly bad-ass to jump off a mountain with pistols blazing and single-handedly fight off a pack of wolves :D

Although I think when most people refer to Lara as "bad-ass" they are referring to scenes from the later games such as the ending of TR3, or the way she deals with Pierre in TR5.

I can't speak for other people who use the term, but to me a badass is someone who shows no fear. Honestly, I found Lara in those scenes in TR3 and TR5 cruel and cowardly. Badassery doesn't have to involve death and violence. Heck, Lara entering that cave with little emotion on her face other than a raised eyebrow, that was badass.

Dennis's Mom

12-09-09, 16:41

I can't speak for other people who use the term, but to me a badass is someone who shows no fear. Honestly, I found Lara in those scenes in TR3 and TR5 cruel and cowardly. Badassery doesn't have to involve death and violence. Heck, Lara entering that cave with little emotion on her face other than a raised eyebrow, that was badass.

"Badass" has become so overused so as to become meaningless--if it ever had any real meaning. I'm with you in that I think Core dropped the ball regarding Lara's character. We're not alone in noticing this either, evidenced this posts by the Curmudgeon Gamer, "Lara the Murderer (http://curmudgeongamer.com/article.php?story=20021022212750878)" and this editoral posted by Ivans Chou, "Lara Croft: Hero or Zero? (http://www.trinity.westhost.com/tomb/misc/character.html)" Ivans is author of the best classic walkthroughs on the web and corresponded regularly regarding such with Core staff.

I think they're relevant here because both of these were written pre-AOD. These are classics players who feel in love with the original game. In the wake of the discussion of Lara's character, I think they're relevant in that the first game sketches a character that no one has issues with, but later games add elements that seem at odds with the Original Lara.

Ward Dragon

12-09-09, 20:25

I suppose it is. But it's no more "bada$$" than anything Lara has done in the CD games, but supposedly Lara isn't "bada$$" enough in them. Watching this video, Lara clearly has an interest in preserving human life, even checks his pulse as if she were going to scrap the whole adventure if he were still alive to save. Otherwise, why check? She clearly doesn't spend any time mourning the dead guy, which IMO shows a more pragmatic and ****ed off nature than heartlessness. She almost turns back to the doorway as if to say "Son of a *****in' cave! You killed my guide! I'll show you!"

Yeah, true :D I guess it gets watered down in Legend and TRA by such scenes as panicking over having just murdered Larson. TR1 had the badass moments but it didn't have any moments of Lara showing fear or self-doubt.

I can't speak for other people who use the term, but to me a badass is someone who shows no fear. Honestly, I found Lara in those scenes in TR3 and TR5 cruel and cowardly. Badassery doesn't have to involve death and violence. Heck, Lara entering that cave with little emotion on her face other than a raised eyebrow, that was badass.

I hate the TR3 ending and although I think that TR5 scene is hilarious it doesn't really seem in-character to me. I was simply trying to generalize from the posts I've seen complaining that Lara isn't as cold-blooded as she used to be and those were the two most cold-blooded scenes from the classics that I could think of :o

Eddie Haskell

14-09-09, 14:09

I suppose since the term "badass" is used more frequently and loosely today that some may see her that way, even in these videos. But perhaps we need another word to better describe a woman who is very tough, extremely decisive, totally independent, stupendously fit, (at least) has a moral compass and is exceptionally intelligent. The term "kickass" is a bit more accurate in my opinion, however most of the available terms are very masculine, and do not reflect the true nature of a female as described above.

I just getting over the flu and am still very tired, so I will continue this thread when my brain returns to it's normal, completely awake state... :(

KIKO

14-09-09, 20:08

I suppose what made this game so great was the fact that it was unique at the time of release. The 3D factor and the freedom it allowed, the exploration the game offered. A heroine, not a hero... That was kinda fresh in 1996. The story was important for the game's length but it's not the focal point.

What came after tomb raider were just games with minor improvements, sequels with pretty graphics, and if you allow me, chest's with more polygons.

The gamer's preferences comes from the fact that it might have been the impact of the first-experience or the player feels more comfortable with the specific game due to it's challenge, due to it's over-complicated plot or due to the fun it provides.

If they ever come up with a game where you'd need the cinema-glasses to watch something in 3D. And if that effect was transported into Tomb Raider. It would be a big hit !

That's why TR1 has the fame of "the best", it was unique at the time :)

gidierre

14-09-09, 21:24

another word to better describe a woman who is very tough, extremely decisive, totally independent, stupendously fit, (at least) has a moral compass and is exceptionally intelligent
Ellen Ripley?

Tyrannosaurus

14-09-09, 22:57

Eddie Haskell

14-09-09, 23:49

^ Ellen Ripley was originally written as a man, and so was Lara! I wonder if that's of any coincidence. These are two feminist icons at this point, so perhaps this says a lot about the necessity of transcending gender altogether.

Anyway, as far as defining badassery goes, I think there are quite a few helpful cracked articles that can elucidate the issue for us:

Mod edit: removed links to articles containing swear words

It seems that my initial, planned format appears to be breaking down, but after we conclude this particular pointed topic we will move along.

It is very difficult to, as you say, transcend gender and make it believable and comfortable to all (or some). There are certain facts that cannot be ignored or brushed away in real life, but in literature or fantasy can be conquered if well-written and somehow made believable.

Let's for example take the fact in the games that a skinny, lightweight, young woman can defeat multitudes of trained military men, with weapons and with melee combat. Never mind the supernatural adversaries, they are and can be devised by the games designers to be defeated by any means they choose. But as a highly trained military man with special forces training, I can tell you that personally I have never seen a woman capable of performing at a level sufficient enough to even get the job, let alone excel at it. The job is as arduous and demanding a physical one that you could ever imagine, and most men who try fail at it than succeed. However, I'm sure that there are a handful of women out there who could actually serve in the special forces, but there are literally thousands of men who potentially could. Sure, Lara could be the weird exception, but they make her physically appear as a runway model, not a female athlete right out of old East Germany.

However, since I all but ignored Lara anyway this never really bothered me. I played the game as myself as you all know. And as anyone could ascertain from the manner in which they attempted to craft her character, she was meant to portray the toughness, strength, stamina and ruthlessness of a man combined with all of the outward femininity of a woman. In this they succeeded.

aquaflute

17-09-09, 00:29

she was meant to portray the toughness, strength, stamina and ruthlessness of a man combined with all of the outward femininity of a woman. In this they succeeded.

Very ture. If a character that possess all those quarlities is in fact a very muscular looking man. Then people would just take those inner strength and toughness for granted and somehow overlook or ignore them. But with a slim and beautiful woman to possess all that, the strong contrast make those characteristics stand out and shine. I personally am always inspired by these game or movie females. Because I used to be a very slender boy and was always intimidated by stronger guys. But from these women I realised that since you already cannot match with some guys in physical size and strength, you must have a strong spirit to compensate for that. They make you truely believe that despite your physical weakness you can still be tough inside and that inner strength will conquer even the most powerful enemies. This is of course unrealistic in real life. But it is definitely a positive thing. This also explains why no one ever use sissy guys for protagonist while tough girls always achieve great popularity. Cause in the end, we should all be as tough as Lara Croft inside:D

iamlaracroft

19-09-09, 02:16

It seems that my initial, planned format appears to be breaking down, but after we conclude this particular pointed topic we will move along.

It is very difficult to, as you say, transcend gender and make it believable and comfortable to all (or some). There are certain facts that cannot be ignored or brushed away in real life, but in literature or fantasy can be conquered if well-written and somehow made believable.

Let's for example take the fact in the games that a skinny, lightweight, young woman can defeat multitudes of trained military men, with weapons and with melee combat. Never mind the supernatural adversaries, they are and can be devised by the games designers to be defeated by any means they choose. But as a highly trained military man with special forces training, I can tell you that personally I have never seen a woman capable of performing at a level sufficient enough to even get the job, let alone excel at it. The job is as arduous and demanding a physical one that you could ever imagine, and most men who try fail at it than succeed. However, I'm sure that there are a handful of women out there who could actually serve in the special forces, but there are literally thousands of men who potentially could. Sure, Lara could be the weird exception, but they make her physically appear as a runway model, not a female athlete right out of old East Germany.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you (ever so slightly!) on just one little thing: I do feel that Core gave us a female athlete-heroine.
Just to provide a little insight on this subject since I've got a fair bit of experience in the area: Core Lara's build is actually not runway model-esque (but I get the gist of what you're saying, Eddie :hug:).
At 5'9 Lara is on the short-end of the modeling height spectrum and even though her arms are incongruously waifish in comparison to the rest of her bod, her legs are quite thick and muscular--not gazelle-like twigs that grace most runways.
Also, her enormous bust would prevent her from fitting into any sample size 2 designer piece. Most rail-thin models have very very small bustlines (think A cup and smaller, whereas Lara would be a double F or even G realistically).
Lastly, because of her stature and solid muscular build, I'm inclined to believe that Lara (were she to exist in reality) would actually weigh a hefty sum--somewhere around 145-165 lbs easy. I assure you her breasts alone would weigh a good 8lbs each, if not more ;) :p

In this regard, I feel like Core did good by us by not creating brunette Barbie with guns. Yes, she's got a huge rack, but she's not a waif. She's powerfully athletic, capable and beautiful--and I think that's why so many young girls like myself gravitated to her. :D
I still played with Barbies growing up, though. :o

Sgt BOMBULOUS

19-09-09, 05:10

I'm gonna have to disagree with you (ever so slightly!) on just one little thing: I do feel that Core gave us a female athlete-heroine.
Just to provide a little insight on this subject since I've got a fair bit of experience in the area: Core Lara's build is actually not runway model-esque (but I get the gist of what you're saying, Eddie :hug:).
At 5'9 Lara is on the short-end of the modeling height spectrum and even though her arms are incongruously waifish in comparison to the rest of her bod, her legs are quite thick and muscular--not gazelle-like twigs that grace most runways.
Also, her enormous bust would prevent her from fitting into any sample size 2 designer piece. Most rail-thin models have very very small bustlines (think A cup and smaller, whereas Lara would be a double F or even G realistically).
Lastly, because of her stature and solid muscular build, I'm inclined to believe that Lara (were she to exist in reality) would actually weigh a hefty sum--somewhere around 145-165 lbs easy. I assure you her breasts alone would weigh a good 8lbs each, if not more ;) :p

In this regard, I feel like Core did good by us by not creating brunette Barbie with guns. Yes, she's got a huge rack, but she's not a waif. She's powerfully athletic, capable and beautiful--and I think that's why so many young girls like myself gravitated to her. :D
I still played with Barbies growing up, though. :o

Double F?!?!?? That's crazy... They have to be close to D's. She looks proportionately well endowed, not freakish looking. I'm sure Eddie is pleased at this level of digression (sorry!). :D

Ward Dragon

19-09-09, 05:32

Double F?!?!?? That's crazy... They have to be close to D's. She looks proportionately well endowed, not freakish looking. I'm sure Eddie is pleased at this level of digression (sorry!). :D

Her boobs were clearly much larger than D's in TR1, especially in the FMV's. Also, I do think she looks freakish in the FMV's, like she's got watermelons glued to her chest :p

iamlaracroft

19-09-09, 05:58

Double F?!?!?? That's crazy... They have to be close to D's. She looks proportionately well endowed, not freakish looking. I'm sure Eddie is pleased at this level of digression (sorry!). :D

lol I don't wanna pull the gender card, but as a woman I kinda know boobs and I can assure you Lara's are definitely bigger than double D's. Double D's are actually small by most standards (experienced men familiar with the area can attest to this ;)), and F's are certainly not "freak-sized".
The 'voluptuous' and 'well endowed' women who seek breast reduction surgery are most often burdened with beast cup sizes that are FF and higher.
In fact, in 2003 Queen Latifa underwent breast reduction surgery (http://news.makemeheal.com/queen-latifah-breast-reduction/308), going from Fs to much more manageable DD's and losing 25 lbs as a result. So, yeah. Lara's bewbs are definitely Fs or larger--not exactly proportionate for her small size.

@ Ward: Not watermelons, pylons :vlol:

Dennis's Mom

19-09-09, 13:41

And the boob talk begins . . . .

JK.

Lara is a video game character and idealized. I don't have a problem with that, although I was gratified to see her reach more natural proportions with TRU.

One of the things I liked about combat in TR (other than it's obvious LACK of it) is how Lara "fought like a girl." She didn't fight like anyone else. It was unusual, and yes, impossible in real life, but like in everything else, Lara played by her own rules. She had developed her own style, her own way of winning. IMO this played into the "rebel without a cause" mystique she had.

When I read posts about people wanting "realistic gunplay," I always think "but Lara isn't like everyone else. She shouldn't fight like everyone else. And how boring would that be?" :confused:

Eddie Haskell

19-09-09, 14:57

All right, let's wrap up the first of this epic thread. So, what is the consensus on the first views and information (the opening vids) we received on Lara and the game?

The way I see it, the designers were not very ambitious nor did they wish to paint a life-like portrait. They sketched out a rough outline of a young, female adventurer who was irresistibly drawn to danger, excitement, and most importantly rare and ancient artifacts. Assuming we all read the manual that came with the game, we were enlightened as well with a bit of her history, and this only added to the aforementioned video information. No deep motivations, no depth of story, in fact no real story at all save for the recovery of an item for a mysterious beanpole of a woman and her redneck servant.

We were served a possible taste of what were in for with the lead in vid to the caves, and as far as game play was concerned we had no idea at this stage prior to the controls being turned over to us.

So, was this enough to whet your appetite and create enough salivary release to prepare you? It certainly was for me, and I recall eagerly checking my finger position on the keyboard as the doors banged shut on the caves that first time. In fact, I remember spending the entire day playing the game...and the next one as well... :)

Dennis's Mom

19-09-09, 19:13

Oh absolutely. Like I said before, it's hard to watch those videos and not want to play the game.

!Lara Croft!

02-10-09, 11:20

I'm gonna have to disagree with you (ever so slightly!) on just one little thing: I do feel that Core gave us a female athlete-heroine.
Just to provide a little insight on this subject since I've got a fair bit of experience in the area: Core Lara's build is actually not runway model-esque (but I get the gist of what you're saying, Eddie :hug:).
At 5'9 Lara is on the short-end of the modeling height spectrum and even though her arms are incongruously waifish in comparison to the rest of her bod, her legs are quite thick and muscular--not gazelle-like twigs that grace most runways.
Also, her enormous bust would prevent her from fitting into any sample size 2 designer piece. Most rail-thin models have very very small bustlines (think A cup and smaller, whereas Lara would be a double F or even G realistically).
Lastly, because of her stature and solid muscular build, I'm inclined to believe that Lara (were she to exist in reality) would actually weigh a hefty sum--somewhere around 145-165 lbs easy. I assure you her breasts alone would weigh a good 8lbs each, if not more ;) :p

Actually in TR1-5 she was 5'4. She bacame 5'9 in AOD, or maybe Legend, i cant remember. Also notice how her abs show through her top, that plus big thighs and the strengh to pull herself up on ledges (even if she does make a sound like shes constipated) equals one strong woman.