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Nausinous
16-09-09, 09:19
Interested in opening thread about it or write down your views in some sort of manifesto (or both)? A general "Your View on Society" thread sounds pretty interesting to me.

It was suggested to me to create this thread so I have, I like nothing more than the opportunity to shove my insane opinions in peoples faces :).

In my opinion, I feel enslaved. So do a few hundred people I talk to around the globe. I believe you share the opinion you do because you have yet to experience the world as I have, I have been homeless on several occasions and at the very bottom of depression. I have seen the world from the bottom of an industrial bin. This is world is cold and cruel as it is now and unless someone stands up and says:

'I'm a human being god dammit, my life has value!'

We will continue to be treat like machines. I'll simply finish this with what I began with: I stand for the liberation of the humans everywhere that feel enslaved like I do. I stand for the creation of a haven for all those who are treat like machines and not humans to take refuge in and build a better future.

Share your view on society.

john_york
16-09-09, 09:25
My opinion is that society is currently too controlled by an unnecessary sense of fear - constantly perpetuated by governments, in particular in the UK and US. There's the constant 'Terrorists! Agh!' shoved down our throats day, in day out which is nothing more than an excuse to slowly erode our civil liberties. All very Star Wars prequel trilogy :D

Add to that the irrational fear of children that all adults in the UK seem to have. Adults are literally terrified of having contact with children - convinved that either a) all children/teenagers are mini-psycopaths that will rob and stab them or b) they'll be branded a paedophile. To me, this is the most worrying aspect of society by far. Children are, obviously, the future of society and need input from adults to mould them into successful human beings.

Drone
16-09-09, 09:27
90% of all societies are corrupted. they love money, sex, dirty stuff, ****ty music, cheap entertainment etc. I also feel enslaved. Every little thing seems to take your freedom away. It makes me want to listen to Lennon's song Working Class Hero

Ikas90
16-09-09, 09:35
I could not agree more with the fact that we are slaves our whole life. Nothing could possibly be more true.

Nausinous
16-09-09, 10:06
My opinion is that society is currently too controlled by an unnecessary sense of fear - constantly perpetuated by governments, in particular in the UK and US. There's the constant 'Terrorists! Agh!' shoved down our throats day, in day out which is nothing more than an excuse to slowly erode our civil liberties. All very Star Wars prequel trilogy :D

Add to that the irrational fear of children that all adults in the UK seem to have. Adults are literally terrified of having contact with children - convinved that either a) all children/teenagers are mini-psycopaths that will rob and stab them or b) they'll be branded a paedophile. To me, this is the most worrying aspect of society by far. Children are, obviously, the future of society and need input from adults to mould them into successful human beings.

I agree with you, I believe that western goverments are using terriosim as a trojan horse to limit our civil liberties. Fear is there greatest weapon and it completely links to what you were saying about adults fearing going near children, it just goes to show they're already in control if their media stops us from going about our dailys lives or interupts it. I remember those bilboard campaigns that the metropolitan police had everywhere, encouraging people to report suspicous items in their neighbours bins and report people looking at CCTVs in supermarkets. It was utterly shocking when I saw those posters and the thing is I know exactly what they are doing but feel utterly powerless. I wish there was a mass march on parliment, it'd make my day.

scoopy_loopy
16-09-09, 10:07
Governments have become too conservative, too worried about policing us all and not leaving us with any responsibility for ourselves at all.

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 10:08
My opinion is that society is currently too controlled by an unnecessary sense of fear - constantly perpetuated by governments, in particular in the UK and US. There's the constant 'Terrorists! Agh!' shoved down our throats day, in day out which is nothing more than an excuse to slowly erode our civil liberties.Really? I'm gonna be honest here, you don't really hear much about terrorism these days. It's more swine flu now than anything - or whatever happens to be the big thing at the time.

I couldn't disagree more that the human race is "enslaved".

But yeah, I don't think I have as pessimistic outlook on society as many here seem to. I know everything isn't perfect, but it's certainly not as bad as some make it out to be.

@scoopy_loopy: Don't you mean authoritarian? Conservatism is about personal freedom. What you described is authoritarianism.

Carbonek_0051
16-09-09, 10:15
****ty music

Not trying to be picky, but who are to decide what's ****ty and what's not?:o

Anyways, to answer the question. I don't know what my views on society are, one minute I like it the next minute I hate it. For reasons I can't fully explain myself.:)

scoopy_loopy
16-09-09, 10:16
^ Well I think our government has become both really. Pandering to stupid groups like The Australian Christian Lobby and Family First :rolleyes:, the government couldnt be more out of touch with people under 30 in this nation.

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 10:19
^ Well I think our government has become both really. Pandering to stupid groups like The Australian Christian Lobby and Family First :rolleyes:, the government couldnt be more out of touch with people under 30 in this nation.I also hear your government are simply handing out money to people. Doesn't sound very conservative to me.

Take our government for example. Labour are easily the most authoritarian of the three major parties but at the same time they are politically left.

scoopy_loopy
16-09-09, 10:21
I was talking socially conservative, otherwise why would I have brought the Christian Lobby into it? :tea:

Personally, the stimulus wasnt really needed, Australians never stopped spending money on retail, credit crunch or not :p But I was grateful for it at the time, got me a 360 and some decent games... :pi:

Drone
16-09-09, 10:30
Not trying to be picky, but who are to decide what's ****ty and what's not?:o

Professionals are to decide. I've read many reviews and watched many interviews by very famous musicians which weren't happy at all about today's music. And somehow I agree with them.

In today's society things get really overhyped (music, films, facts, people, just everything) by media, press and government. Dictating what to do and what to listen is limiting people's freedoms. Maybe it's another way how governments control the masses, I don't know.

MiCkiZ88
16-09-09, 12:55
Paranoid, that's what I call western society. If they are not paranoid about terrorists, they are paranoid about people who are not concerned about them. He must be among them.. Should I give a tip about him to the police? I mean, he is a foreigner (be it european, asian, middle eastern...) after all.

Paranoid about global destructions, wars, terrorism and the amount of oil left. Whilst a few are actually concerned about more important matters like overpopulation, drought, famine and pollution which will kill the planet instead of just casualties in wars.. People just don't seem to focus on the most important things and seem to get worried by the slightest of changes. Omg, a female president!? WHOA!! THAT is going to ruin or nation fer sure! (back in 2000 when our first female Finnish president was elected)

And I do agree about music with Drone as well. Although I might not call everything ****ty, but the societies seem to prefer one thing over the other and if you happen to like something else, you are just weird for not listening to rap, r&b or hip hop. I mean single ladies is the best music video ever after all.

Dennis's Mom
16-09-09, 13:08
I'm most disturbed by the lack of dignity and common decency that I see in the US. People behaving rudely, badly, thoughtlessly, no respect for elders, no sense of values. The veneer of civilization has always been very thin; I see it eroding away every day into a culture of "Me! Me! Above all, Me!"

I want to move to move someplace where being polite is still a priority, where what's "right" hasn't turned into "what you can get away with," where folks aren't too good to do what needs to be done regardless of whether or not it's their job or their responsibility, where kindness is more important than owning something.

MiCkiZ88
16-09-09, 14:20
I want to move to move someplace where being polite is still a priority, where what's "right" hasn't turned into "what you can get away with," where folks aren't too good to do what needs to be done regardless of whether or not it's their job or their responsibility, where kindness is more important than owning something.
... is there such a place? Everything seems to be based on materialism, productivity and needs. Why is there healthcare for the workers? So that they can work longer. Why does the goverment support you in making your own business? Taxes, more workers and the goverment will get the money back sooner than you can pay your debt, if not just interests back. Any goverment needs workers as they are their major income through taxes. Ah how I love my history teacher for saying things he shouldn't have said, I lost respect for the finnish goverment.

And last but not least: Why is there a church for the people?
His answer: Both me and the priests know there is no God, I'm good friends with them. The church is there thanks to the goverment. Weak minded people need support in their life and what a better place to find that than a church or a priest?

Ouch.

Mokono
16-09-09, 14:28
Really? I'm gonna be honest here, you don't really hear much about terrorism these days. It's more swine flu now than anything - or whatever happens to be the big thing at the time.

I agree with him, it's not related with "terrorism", fear is everywhere... From the first person who shouts "Commie!" or "Fascist" to a relevant political figure inside a nation who had historically fought both strains. That and the fact the world situation is not on it's best currently.

I couldn't disagree more that the human race is "enslaved".

Come pay me a visit then. I'll be glad to show you how slavery works nowdays, how people is given uneluctable conditions since they're born until they die, how the society margines them and prevents them from decent social ascence.

But yeah, I don't think I have as pessimistic outlook on society as many here seem to. I know everything isn't perfect, but it's certainly not as bad as some make it out to be.

Then my eyes must have been lying me all these years.

90% of all societies are corrupted. they love money, sex, dirty stuff, ****ty music, cheap entertainment etc. I also feel enslaved. Every little thing seems to take your freedom away. It makes me want to listen to Lennon's song Working Class Hero

That fake entertainment is made to distract the masses from important stuff. Truth universal freedom won't exist in a society where we build our own chains.

I want to move to move someplace where being polite is still a priority, where what's "right" hasn't turned into "what you can get away with," where folks aren't too good to do what needs to be done regardless of whether or not it's their job or their responsibility, where kindness is more important than owning something.

paradoxically as it seems, i found this "heaven" situation in remote towns where people still uses the self supplying economy upon a market oriented one... They lack of western comodities, but the lifestyle is so simple that they're plain unnecessary. One of my life plans is to retire to one of those towns in the mountains one day.

Punaxe
16-09-09, 14:44
I think the Western societal system in general is great.

Many people seem to long for the "simpler" days, but that would be impossible on today's Earth. As populations have grown, it has become impossible to stick to those old ways. Even back when we still lived in small villages we already had to delegate tasks: he's a farmer, this man fishes, that guy hunts, this woman makes clothes, et cetera. Today's society is the same, except with countless more professions, which reflect the extreme diversity our lives can have these days. Call it conformity, boring, what you will - we have more choices in everything than ever before. Sure, we are expected to work. Why should we not be? Nothing is free, and nothing ever was. In a system where there is as much diversity as in ours, in which we can do whatever we want, we can no longer trade fish for grains. Not everything we can choose to do results in tangible currency, and that's why we have a monetary system. Do you want to make games for a living? Nobody's going to pay you a glass of milk for each line of code or each texture. In our system, you can make games for a living. Slavery? Hardly.

But yes, a certain amount of conformity we must all adhere to, as we must all bow to the law. Does nobody agree that this is not only a necessity, but also a good thing? We no longer live in small groups where we know everyone we meet. There are so many of us, we cannot maintain personal contracts with everyone - we have to agree to them on a grand scale. The law is there to protect the entirety of society and without it we would most likely be absolutely nowhere. Again, we can do anything we want, as long as we adhere to a couple of rules that generally make absolute sense.

Finally, about degrading morality... I agree, but I must note that countless generations before us have had the very same opinion. They were wrong, wouldn't you agree?

Dennis's Mom
16-09-09, 14:47
... is there such a place?

I have been listening to "The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency" series, and have an incredible need to move to Botswana. :D

paradoxically as it seems, i found this "heaven" situation in remote towns where people still uses the self supplying economy upon a market oriented one... They lack of western comodities, but the lifestyle is so simple that they're plain unnecessary. One of my life plans is to retire to one of those towns in the mountains one day.

My dad told me the reason he was retiring to East Texas was because the country was now what the city was when he was a boy.

The human race is not enslaved today any more than it has been throughout history. Of course, it depends on what you call slavery.

Mokono
16-09-09, 15:03
I think the Western societal system in general is great.

Many people seem to long for the "simpler" days, but that would be impossible on today's Earth. As populations have grown, it has become impossible to stick to those old ways. Even back when we still lived in small villages we already had to delegate tasks: he's a farmer, this man fishes, that guy hunts, this woman makes clothes, et cetera. Today's society is the same, except with countless more professions, which reflect the extreme diversity our lives can have these days.

Those are the pros of western society, it can't be denied... But the problem is that is not a universal situation for every country ruled the "western way". I can't help but looking to a simplier past when i know that right now there's people out there lacking of all what i have so far because of the social incapability to grant security and equity to the majority.

Call it conformity, boring, what you will - we have more choices in everything than ever before. Sure, we are expected to work. Why should we not be? Nothing is free, and nothing ever was. In a system where there is as much diversity as in ours we can do whatever we want, we can no longer trade fish for grains. Not everything we can choose to do results in tangible currency, and that's why we have a monetary system. Do you want to make games for a living? Nobody's going to pay you a glass of milk for each line of code or each texture. In our system, you can make games for a living.

i guess your approach to what was said was a bit literal. Our way of life is hardly boring considering the different paths of entertainment we have (cinemas, night clubs, pubs, etc), and the freedom is relatively... People is supposed to grant their own freedom by work, but do you know what happens when people is not allowed to work decently? That doesn't happen in Europe, i'm sure, but over here is quite common. I guess one of the reasons Peruvian Government doesn't show a more rigid behaviour towards piracy is because they know certain families doesn't have other means of subsistence, wich is an excuse when the government is not interested in granting legal ways of decent procedures.

But yes, a certain amount of conformity we must all adhere to, as we must all bow to the law. Does nobody agree that this is not only a necessity, but also a good thing?

I agree, in a certain degree, even countries like the one i live seem to be fair towards people with a respectable attitude towards the law (being this fair or not).

We no longer live in small groups where we know everyone we meet. There are so many of us, we cannot maintain personal contracts with everyone - we have to agree to them on a grand scale. The law is there to protect the entirety of society and without it we would most likely be absolutely nowhere. Again, we can do anything we want, as long as we adhere to a couple of rules that generally make absolute sense.

Depends, really... Over here we still have simple comunities where people hardly meet (or trust) other individuals that doesn't belong to their communities. Anyways, i'm a pro-democracy in what comes to extend the Human Rights legislations to this groups (certain ones tend to adopt them easily than others), although the situation is really complicated, since these communities had learn that the government they were sucked into (some of these groups didn't even know that they belong to a country until early XX century).

Finally, about degrading morality... I agree, but I must note that countless generations before us have had the very same opinion. They were wrong, wouldn't you agree?

We must separate contexts here. If someone had ever watched a 60's-70's movie about the youth back then, then the changes are just in technological terms, because their behaviour is practically the same. In this case i wouldn't say is a degrading moral, because teenagers always had an outsider subculture. However i'll condemn the extended voyeurism nowdays, because now people is obsessed with gossipls and irrelevant stuff... I like to hear news from some celebrities, but not to have pics of how they poop taken by people who irrupts privacy (paparazzis). So, i'll be developing my conceptions of degeneration later... I'll like to hear some more oppinions about it.

Slavery? Hardly.

Again, this is not an european phenomenon, it happens in undeveloped nations the most. The society simply leaves people aside giving them few or no chances at all to overcome their situations. For me, those are chains set for the sake of the reigning minority here.

My dad told me the reason he was retiring to East Texas was because the country was now what the city was when he was a boy.

The human race is not enslaved today any more than it has been throughout history. Of course, it depends on what you call slavery.

Indeed, i'm making an abstraction to the notions to apply of what happens in my country... As long as this discussion goes further, i'll post maps pics and documentation to let people know what's really going on.

Punaxe
16-09-09, 15:09
I forgot to say that I'm talking about how it is either in theory or in Europe, specifically the Netherlands. Of course I was not talking about all societies that are vastly different, and I don't know enough about Peru to assess that, but you said yourself that the system is often not being followed as it should (corruption). Then, your Peruvian observations are irrelevant, as they do not relate to what I was talking about.

Of course I am deeply troubled by how things are going elsewhere in the world, but since I'm sure we all agree, there's not much to talk about, except for the kind of society such a country would ideally get - and I see no trouble with a system that's similar to the Dutch one.

Mokono
16-09-09, 15:15
I forgot to say that I'm talking about how it is either in theory or in Europe, specifically the Netherlands. Of course I was not talking about all societies that are vastly different, and I don't know enough about Peru to assess that, but you said yourself that the system is often not being followed as it should (corruption). Then, your Peruvian observations are irrelevant, as they do not relate to what I was talking about.

Fair enough, although this country is supposed to follow the western patern, but it's obvious that if corruption wasn't as widespread, then the system would have no, or few flaws. I'm not trying to disprove the western (European) model od society, if that's what you thought i was doing. All i'm doing is picturing "society" as i understand it (irrelevant or not i guess getting people knowing about what's going on can picture what i eventually say in further posts).

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 15:17
I think the Western societal system in general is great.

Many people seem to long for the "simpler" days, but that would be impossible on today's Earth. As populations have grown, it has become impossible to stick to those old ways. Even back when we still lived in small villages we already had to delegate tasks: he's a farmer, this man fishes, that guy hunts, this woman makes clothes, et cetera. Today's society is the same, except with countless more professions, which reflect the extreme diversity our lives can have these days. Call it conformity, boring, what you will - we have more choices in everything than ever before. Sure, we are expected to work. Why should we not be? Nothing is free, and nothing ever was. In a system where there is as much diversity as in ours, in which we can do whatever we want, we can no longer trade fish for grains. Not everything we can choose to do results in tangible currency, and that's why we have a monetary system. Do you want to make games for a living? Nobody's going to pay you a glass of milk for each line of code or each texture. In our system, you can make games for a living. Slavery? Hardly.

But yes, a certain amount of conformity we must all adhere to, as we must all bow to the law. Does nobody agree that this is not only a necessity, but also a good thing? We no longer live in small groups where we know everyone we meet. There are so many of us, we cannot maintain personal contracts with everyone - we have to agree to them on a grand scale. The law is there to protect the entirety of society and without it we would most likely be absolutely nowhere. Again, we can do anything we want, as long as we adhere to a couple of rules that generally make absolute sense.

Finally, about degrading morality... I agree, but I must note that countless generations before us have had the very same opinion. They were wrong, wouldn't you agree?I agree with all of this. :tmb: Glad I'm not the only person here who thinks that way. We spend too much time disagreeing on the EU and not enough time agreeing on things like this. :p

Punaxe
16-09-09, 15:32
Fair enough, although this country is supposed to follow the western patern, but it's obvious that if corruption wasn't as widespread, then the system would have no, or few flaws. I'm not trying to disprove the western (European) model od society, if that's what you thought i was doing. All i'm doing is picturing "society" as i understand it (irrelevant or not i guess getting people knowing about what's going on can picture what i eventually say in further posts).

Of course it's relevant to this thread, I just didn't really see why it was a response to my post (as a few times before :p).

I agree with all of this. :tmb: Glad I'm not the only person here who thinks that way. We spend too much time disagreeing on the EU and not enough time agreeing on things like this. :p

http://www.wdisneyw.com/forums/images/smilies/highfive.gif
It's sad when people can only see bad sides, especially because I think most of the ones mentioned here are the result of entirely missing or misunderstanding the proper context.

Drone
16-09-09, 16:01
That fake entertainment is made to distract the masses from important stuff. Truth universal freedom won't exist in a society where we build our own chains.

that's the truth. How can we be free in society where food and entertainment are the only pleasures. when music lost its sense, it's not an art now it's just entertainment. It sickens me how they rape the reality. Come on, it's just lame!

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 16:03
Err, people choose what music they listen to, what food they eat and what films they watch. It's always all government control isn't it? It's got nothing to do with people having choice and free will...

Drone
16-09-09, 16:04
what choice? every time I turn tv on it's rap there that is your choice?

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 16:06
what choice? every time I turn tv on it's rap there that is your choice?Well that's down to the TV station, not the government lol. I'm no fan of rap either, but that's what a lot of people choose to listen to. I think some people here overestimating the amount of control government has on somebody's life.

tombraiderluka
16-09-09, 16:09
Society in my country well.. no comment :mad:

Mokono
16-09-09, 16:12
what choice? every time I turn tv on it's rap there that is your choice?

But that's the music market, the records companies; i mean, that kind of music sells as drugs.

Well that's down to the TV station, not the government lol. I'm no fan of rap either, but that's what a lot of people choose to listen to.

And who said that the Government puts another dime in the jukebox, baby ♪ ♫ ?

I think some people here overestimating the amount of control government has on somebody's life.

With Obama in charge, who knows ;).

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 16:30
With Obama in charge, who knows ;).Well, his healthcare plans certainly give him more control over the American populace. ;)

Lemmie
16-09-09, 17:02
I think society in which I live still has various inequalities inherent in it, but I like to think it is fairer than many. Of course I do not like those who try to restrict the rights of others, but I also dislike those who know only about their rights and not their responsibilities (sometimes they can be the same people).

the ancient
16-09-09, 18:02
I think society is going downhill and than especialtly in the social way:because these days it is fun to see ather people have pain(fysical and emotional) and all thats not the way it supose to be

Lee croft
16-09-09, 18:05
Society sucks!! :yah: :)

just croft
16-09-09, 18:10
Very simply, my opinion of society today (generaly) is that people strongly support two things, bashing and inaction.

TRhalloween
16-09-09, 18:12
I'm not sure since I don't have any other society to compare it with but I guess it's pretty good overall.

Drone
16-09-09, 18:38
But that's the music market, the records companies; i mean, that kind of music sells as drugs.

yeah and in society where everything is sold and bought justice and freedom just can't rule

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 18:52
yeah and in society where everything is sold and bought justice and freedom just can't ruleThat doesn't really make much sense. :/

Drone
16-09-09, 18:53
That doesn't really make much sense. :/

bribed politicians will tell you the same

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 18:57
So what do you propose we do instead of buying and selling things?

Drone
16-09-09, 19:04
So what do you propose we do instead of buying and selling things?

not everything should be for sale if you care. places in the parliament, territories, people, popularity .... this can be bought but it shouldn't be.

Reggie
16-09-09, 19:06
I don't really have a 1-size fits all view on society because we're becoming more globalised and multicultural as we enter ever further into the mish-mash era of postmodernism and there are still many things that differentiate one society from another be it differences between countries, towns or simply small groups of people. Its a difficult time in history to make a judement on society from an objective standpoint but if I'm taking strictly about the social groups I mix with namely, students and my own family, I think there's an awful lack of compassion about the people and world around them. No one seems to care about politics or indeed society and material possessions seems to be the main fixation to a very large extent. Its always a breath of fresh air when I meet someone who isn't just focussed on what they have (or in worse cases, what they don't have but want). I also dislike how so many do nothing but ***** and moan about everything. Never a good word to say anything. I know I'm guilty of having a good moan occassionally but I try to lead a positive life and I try to see in good in things wherever I can. In short, I think society would be better off if there was less selfishness and pessimism overall.

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 19:11
not everything should be for sale if you care. places in the parliament, territories, people, popularity .... this can be bought but it shouldn't be.It's human nature. I'm not saying I agree with bribery but it's not something that can be stopped.

Reggie
16-09-09, 19:15
It's human nature. I'm not saying I agree with bribery but it's not something that can be stopped.
In what way would you say its human nature? Just curious. :)

Drone
16-09-09, 19:19
It's human nature. I'm not saying I agree with bribery but it's not something that can be stopped.

right. human nature is not going to change in the nearest future I suppose. dreaming about perfect society won't work. here the mentality becomes more important than politics. everyone wants to have more power but every kind of government is always a violence towards the freedom and people. people should know by know that they have duties not only rights. if there was such a balance then there was a perfect society without government but it still wouldn't be anarchy either.

Punaxe
16-09-09, 19:19
In what way would you say its human nature?

Greed, I suppose.

I must point out that two of the acts that Drone mentioned are illegal. It may happen, but at great risk of losing everything.
One other (territory) is not entirely true and I think perfectly reasonable, and finally buying popularity... Well, there's much more to it than just that.

Reggie
16-09-09, 19:21
@Drone: You definitely speak for me as well on this one. I don't think anarchy is necessary if there was just this kind of shift. :tmb:

@Punaxe: I don't think greed is fundamental to human nature. Greed exists for sure, but I wouldn't identify human beings as being a selfish animal if I had to compare them to other species of animal. Of course, the human race can certainly be held responsible for causing a lot of **** stuff to happen over history and while it would naive to assume they haven't and that greed doesn't exist, I would say its also pessimistic and arguably wrong to assume the opposite and say it defines who we are as animals.

Punaxe
16-09-09, 19:23
right. human nature is not going to change in the nearest future I suppose. dreaming about perfect society won't work. here the mentality becomes more important than politics. everyone wants to have more power but every kind of government is always a violence towards the freedom and people. people should know by know that they have duties not only rights. if there was such a balance then there was a perfect society without government but it still wouldn't be anarchy either.

Sure, if you consider every law and rule, even those that protect you, an infringement of your freedom, then your italic statement is correct. And of course people have duties, would you want it any other way? I'm interested in how you would describe this perfect society without government. How do you envision it would work exactly?

(Same question to Reggie.)

Tyrannosaurus
16-09-09, 19:26
Governments have become too conservative, too worried about policing us all and not leaving us with any responsibility for ourselves at all.I thought that's what happens when a government becomes too liberal.

Reggie
16-09-09, 19:27
Sure, if you consider every law and rule, even those that protect you, an infringement of your freedom, then your italic statement is correct. And of course people have duties, would you want it any other way? I'm interested in how you would describe this perfect society without government. How do you envision it would work exactly?

(Same question to Reggie.)
That's a really big question to answer and to try and answer it would be pure hypothesis. Seeing as I've only just read Drone's POV and found it an appealing concept on an ideological basis, I think I'm less well equipped to deal with question than Drone so I'll defer to what he has to say on it and come back to you again on this until I can give you a satisfactory answer.

Drone
16-09-09, 19:28
if there is no word government then there is no word anarchy. if there is no black then there is no white. if everyone does what they need to do then everything will be fine, no one would need government, just harmony and equality. It's an utopia ... I know ... but it'd be darn good

Punaxe
16-09-09, 19:31
if there is no word government then there is no word anarchy. if there is no black then there is no white. if everyone does what they need to do then everything will be fine, no one would need government, just harmony and equality. It's an utopia ... I know ... but it'd be darn good

Everyone does what they need to, then everything will be fine? Surely you don't believe this is a realistic view? And assuming you agree that it's not, do you not agree an external entity is required to keep people in line?

Drone
16-09-09, 19:35
what do you mean by "external entity"? a group of people that can control others? why do they need to be supreme?

Punaxe
16-09-09, 19:38
what do you mean by "external entity"? a group of people that can control others? why do they need to be supreme?

Because only with authority can you keep people in line. Or do you think people can do this among themselves?

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 19:38
In what way would you say its human nature? Just curious. :)As Punaxe said, greed.

right. human nature is not going to change in the nearest future I suppose. dreaming about perfect society won't work. here the mentality becomes more important than politics. everyone wants to have more power but every kind of government is always a violence towards the freedom and people. people should know by know that they have duties not only rights. if there was such a balance then there was a perfect society without government but it still wouldn't be anarchy either.I think you're exaggerating a bit there.

if there is no word government then there is no word anarchy. if there is no black then there is no white. if everyone does what they need to do then everything will be fine, no one would need government, just harmony and equality. It's an utopia ... I know ... but it'd be darn goodCall me what you want but I hate the idea.

Drone
16-09-09, 19:40
Because only with authority can you keep people in line. Or do you think people can do this among themselves?

if one has right moral principles in the head why he/she needs to listen to others?

Punaxe
16-09-09, 19:42
if one has right moral principles in the head why he/she needs to listen to others?

If one has that, maybe not... Now try 6 billion.

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 19:42
If one has that, maybe not... Now try 6 billion.I agree. You can't expect a country to be productive without some sort of law and governance.

Chocola teapot
16-09-09, 19:45
Meh, Society smells but there's nothing I can do.

Reggie
16-09-09, 19:47
Ok here's my view on anarchy: I don't know what would happen were a proper anarchic revolution to take place in a western country but I'm aware that while utopia would be a possibility where virtuous well-meaning people are concerned, we have to account for disruptive factors which a government as an authority usually keeps in check. In an ideal world though, for me, anarchy would be a possibility and we would all be free. However, I'm aware that in the real world full of so many uncertainties where we have historically seen ideologies go the way of compromise, I must therefore in real terms support the next best thing which is the idea of a libertarian government which helps keep the country and society running smoothly but uses as little authoritarian methods of controlling the population as possible while the government remains answerable to the people and has the kind measures in place to ensure that the Government doesn't get away with exploitation. That's pretty much what I think politically - not well fleshed out in this post but it gives you the gist of what I think. I'm certainly not by label, an anarchist - I just find the idea appealing.

Forwen
16-09-09, 19:47
Society is useful... and inevitable. Wherever three people meet you'll have a society.

I will abstain from commenting on the sense of "enslavement" from some because I'm feeling polite today.

Drone
16-09-09, 19:50
If one has that, maybe not... Now try 6 billion.

now that's why I said it all depends on person. at least if 80% of people were so (not tied to guilt or tied to greed), then they could win. it's some kind of perfectionism I know. But those "leaders" (which you say are needed) ain't perfect, just say to me now what is the percentage of agreement between rulers and regular people? in 90% people even don't actually know what their rulers are really doing

Drone
16-09-09, 19:55
libertarian government which helps keep the country and society running smoothly but uses as little authoritarian methods of controlling the population as possible while the government remains answerable to the people and has the kind measures in place to ensure that the Government doesn't get away with exploitation.

just read this post, this sounds really good. that could be a good start for a new direction.

Mad Tony
16-09-09, 20:03
now that's why I said it all depends on person. at least if 80% of people were so (not tied to guilt or tied to greed), then they could win. it's some kind of perfectionism I know. But those "leaders" (which you say are needed) ain't perfect, just say to me now what is the percentage of agreement between rulers and regular people? in 90% people even don't actually know what their rulers are really doingYou keep on bring out loads of statistics but where are you getting them from? :confused:

Punaxe
16-09-09, 20:09
now that's why I said it all depends on person. at least if 80% of people were so (not tied to guilt or tied to greed), then they could win. it's some kind of perfectionism I know. But those "leaders" (which you say are needed) ain't perfect, just say to me now what is the percentage of agreement between rulers and regular people? in 90% people even don't actually know what their rulers are really doing

Even if your numbers are correct, and if they would "win", would that not mean that the minority is being controlled by the rest? Are you proposing a democratic government where the "good people" decide the fate of the "bad people"? How are you going to decide what is good and what is bad? How are you going to decide how the bad people will be "overwon"?

You yourself mention a percentage of agreement between people and the government... To me this illustrates
a) the fact that there is little agreement between people, invalidating your "80% will think along the exact same moral lines" idea; and
b) the difference in experience, knowledge and understanding between those elected to govern and the population - you just cannot let "the people" run a society.

Drone
16-09-09, 20:10
I just say that the more good people are there the faster perfect society can be formed. I think it's pretty obivious. If people don't do it right no social formation can help.

patriots88888
16-09-09, 20:11
Whenever I see this question posed, I flashback to the Seinfeld episode where George returns from the liquor store to find that someone has double parked and blocked his car from being able to exit the parking space.

Punaxe
16-09-09, 20:15
I just say that the more good people are there the faster perfect society can be formed. I think it's pretty obivious. If people don't do it right no social formation can help.

I put it to you that your "perfect society" is an illusion, and that what we have now is about as perfect as it will get, regardless of the amount of good people.
As the government is there to make sure things are done right, if people do it right anyway, these good people won't even notice there is a government.

Drone
16-09-09, 20:20
I put it to you that your "perfect society" is an illusion, and that what we have now is about as perfect as it will get, regardless of the amount of good people.
As the government is there to make sure things are done right, if people do it right anyway, these good people won't even notice there is a government.

it's not illusion but atm I cannot see it happen. it's not an easy process if humans didn't manage to do this through all these years. and it's really hard to predict how such model of perfect society will work for a big amount of people. how long will it remain clean and steady

Reggie
16-09-09, 20:26
I put it to you that your "perfect society" is an illusion, and that what we have now is about as perfect as it will get, regardless of the amount of good people.
As the government is there to make sure things are done right, if people do it right anyway, these good people won't even notice there is a government.
I think think it would be naive to think that this is as good as we'll get. As a society we must never become complacent about our goverment. As I've said earlier, I think its important to look on the bright side of things and appreciate what we have. In a political sense this is that our western governments are already more libertarian than some other countries like China, Burma and Zimbabwe and for that I am grateful but I'm certainly not apathetic about what's going on around me and around the world.

Heckler
16-09-09, 20:40
I think one cant be too dismissive towards society if you can adapt to at least one tiny part of it....Depends on your views of what "Society" is..

Its like all other things in the world....it can benefit/detriment pending on your views on the topic.

xXhayleyroxXx
16-09-09, 20:44
i think society is whatever you make of it. The world's society is getting better but has a lot to learn and improve upon, my society (north east), is both good and bad in places, but again; society is what you make of it. People should have an air of decorum about them but still be able to wear what other people dare to - for the right reasons.

people should be more polite, not litter as much and generally make the world a better place instead of rebelling.

Punaxe
16-09-09, 21:08
I think think it would be naive to think that this is as good as we'll get. As a society we must never become complacent about our goverment. As I've said earlier, I think its important to look on the bright side of things and appreciate what we have. In a political sense this is that our western governments are already more libertarian than some other countries like China, Burma and Zimbabwe and for that I am grateful but I'm certainly not apathetic about what's going on around me and around the world.

You are right, I too have plenty of ideals in mind that aren't quite reached yet, but as with Drone, these mostly depend on the people and their morality, while unlike Drone I maintain the perspective that a government will always be needed, and I meant that speaking of a system of society, I don't think we could deviate too much from what we have now.

Drone
17-09-09, 04:10
You are right, I too have plenty of ideals in mind that aren't quite reached yet, but as with Drone, these mostly depend on the people and their morality, while unlike Drone I maintain the perspective that a government will always be needed, and I meant that speaking of a system of society, I don't think we could deviate too much from what we have now.


that's because the masses are not (mentally) ready for that and leaders wouldn't like to give their powers away. a compromise and understanding should be achieved on that. It can cause a revolution, the literal or metaphorical one.

miss.haggard
17-09-09, 04:13
To sum it up. Rude, unforgiving, surprising.

Paddy
17-09-09, 04:15
i think society is whatever you make of it. The world's society is getting better but has a lot to learn and improve upon, my society (north east), is both good and bad in places, but again; society is what you make of it. People should have an air of decorum about them but still be able to wear what other people dare to - for the right reasons.

people should be more polite, not litter as much and generally make the world a better place instead of rebelling.

Rebelling isnt always a bad thing. Sometimes there are worthy causes to do so.

AmericanAssassin
17-09-09, 04:25
The average person in every day society sickens me. Everybody worries about the wrong things. Nobody cares to go see the films with meaning or listen to the songs with passion behind them. It kills me inside. It's as though the human race has reverted back to the times of cave people. All anybody in my generation (I'm 18) cares about is sex, drugs, and beating each other's asses. Yes, that's the truth. We're not supposed to let adults know that they're right about the youth of today, but I don't fit in here, so I'm letting it out. Everything is corrupt and it saddens me. :(

Hybrid Soldier
17-09-09, 04:47
i think society is whatever you make of it. The world's society is getting better but has a lot to learn and improve upon, my society (north east), is both good and bad in places, but again; society is what you make of it. People should have an air of decorum about them but still be able to wear what other people dare to - for the right reasons.

people should be more polite, not litter as much and generally make the world a better place instead of rebelling.

Sadly, i find this generation (more so kids growing up now) more focused on their personal needs, as opposed to others. It makes sense to a certain extent because everyone needs to look out for themselves. But when it comes to making the world a better place, people really don't care. Its rare to even come across someone who is courteous or friendly. Best possible example is at work when i deal with customers. People can be demanding, ignorant and rude for the simple fact they aren't getting what they need. I've been hassled for doing my job before, gotten snide remarks, etc. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but this kind of attitude is more prevalent in bigger cities. Not only that, but because its a 'me-me' attitude, people just expect others to pick up after their mess. Its actually disgusting the amount of places i've seen where people can't simply put stuff in the garbage. They'd rather leave their stuff lying around for someone else to take care of. It's frustrating living in a society where no one really understands, or appreciates when people are being friendly/courteous. I think its taken for granted a lot of the time.

Drone
17-09-09, 04:53
It's all true. While egocentrism, greed, selfishness and "couldn't-be-arsed" attitude run the world, Earth ain't gonna be a better place. If people won't protect the environment and echo system, the nature will suffer again. People should better care about this, and they better get themselves concerned with the real bad things and guys.

aquaflute
17-09-09, 05:02
The average person in every day society sickens me. Everybody worries about the wrong things. Nobody cares to go see the films with meaning or listen to the songs with passion behind them. It kills me inside. It's as though the human race has reverted back to the times of cave people. All anybody in my generation (I'm 18) cares about is sex, drugs, and beating each other's asses. Yes, that's the truth. We're not supposed to let adults know that they're right about the youth of today, but I don't fit in here, so I'm letting it out. Everything is corrupt and it saddens me. :(

Don't worry you are just a little bit more clear-headed than the rest of your group. But they will grow out of it, surely enough. Teenage kids are supposed to be stupid. It's really no big deal. It's actually a good thing you can see things different now.

And I really hope everybody can just live more eco friendly and protect our environment. Here in US it's very clean but people have absolutely no concept of conseving energy. And I was shocked to find so many bashing on the concept of greenhouse effect. However the situation in my own country is only worse. But I always maintain a small amount of hope or just try to not think too much of it otherwise I'll go insane...

AmericanAssassin
17-09-09, 05:07
Don't worry you are just a little bit more clear-headed than the rest of your group. But they will grow out of it, surely enough. Teenage kids are supposed to be stupid. It's really no big deal. It's actually a good thing you can see things different now.

People have always told me that I'm a bit ahead of my time. From observing my surroundings, I've noticed that I don't have anything in common with anybody under 25. It's depressing. That's not to say I'm perfect. Unfortunately, I'm very materialistic. I love my possessions and value them more than I do most people. It freaks me out that I can find a DVD or a book so important.

aquaflute
17-09-09, 05:19
People have always told me that I'm a bit ahead of my time. From observing my surroundings, I've noticed that I don't have anything in common with anybody under 25. It's depressing. That's not to say I'm perfect. Unfortunately, I'm very materialistic. I love my possessions and value them more than I do most people. It freaks me out that I can find a DVD or a book so important.

You should stop thinking that. I am under 25 and I already found a lot of things in common with you. I feel sad everytime I have to throw away a pen. Are you going to college or are you already in one? I think you should go to a big university where you can meet a lot of people. With great diversity you can almost always find a kindered spirit. True that there aren't too many people like us (if you don't mind I say us) out there. But you will find them and meet them once you enter a broader world. And college is just a gate to that broader world.

And keep this in mind, you are still very young. No matter how much ahead you think you are with others of same age. Your view on a lot of things can still change dramatically. You will be amazed by how much you will change in these next 2 or 3 years.

AmericanAssassin
17-09-09, 06:23
As a matter of fact, I'm going to a community college for the spring semester (starting in January) and I'm transferring to a large university next fall. I'm very excited. It's in a major US city, so I can't wait to see all of the different types of people and learn about them. :D

Drone
17-09-09, 06:27
somehow I'm glad to see that some members on TRF (like Reggie, MiCkiZ88 and others) can see the real problems such as social mentality, moral principles, environmental problems, politics, government, media. people need to think about these things today, and they need to do something about that aswel. Couldn'tcarelessness can ruin next generations, future, everything. Instead of that idiotic talk shows and neverending soap operas on tv we should have more intelligent and enlightening stuff. why the hell we don't have it, why nobody cares? why the hell do we need 24/7 ads and other useless crap? give us more educational stuff, good films, good music. no more brainwashing and dull media.

patriots88888
17-09-09, 07:11
somehow I'm glad to see that some members on TRF (like Reggie, MiCkiZ88 and others) can see the real problems such as social mentality, moral principles, environmental problems, politics, government, media. people need to think about these things today, and they need to do something about that aswel. Couldn'tcarelessness can ruin next generations, future, everything. Instead of that idiotic talk shows and neverending soap operas on tv we should have more intelligent and enlightening stuff. why the hell we don't have it, why nobody cares? why the hell do we need 24/7 ads and other useless crap? give us more educational stuff, good films, good music. no more brainwashing and dull media.

While for the most part I agree with what you say, some may see that as an infringement on their freedoms of choice... and, dare I say it, borderline communistic and idealistic.

Freedom of choice is always a good thing IMO and it's the individuals' responsibilities in society to make the right choices for themselves. Society is first and foremost 'the people', not government nor its ideals on any given society. That responsibility ultimately starts with a solid core of strong family values which is carried on from there throughout life.

Nausinous
16-10-09, 22:50
I never really responded to this thread properly so here is another take I have on it. I really hope a moderator isn't going to be spiteful for resurrecting this discussion. So here it is.

Slavery:


bondage: the state of being under the control of another person or entity
work done under harsh conditions for little or no pay


I believe that many of us are slaves to the monetary system, we have to work to live and it has been the same for every generation. I'm essentially saying living should be for free because every human should have to the right to eat and sleep for free instead of in exchange for labour. I think we should replace the human factor in labour with machines, it would reduce the cost of producing food to a minimum and free up the lives of millions. I do understand many would argue that would leave many jobless but I think that problem is another one that my project endeavours to solve too. This is why I have initiated Project L.O.M.U.S.A.S, the video that introduces the project is being compressed right now to be uploaded to Youtube.

Feel free to call me insane, my mother thinks it.

larafan25
16-10-09, 22:53
I guess society can be good and bad, I mean isn't society different depending on where you are..........

anyways most of it is stupid:)

Punaxe
16-10-09, 22:54
With all due respect, reiterating your earlier statements is still not "properly responding", but I suppose we'll wait for your video to come online.

Nausinous
16-10-09, 22:57
With all due respect, reiterating your earlier statements is still not "properly responding", but I suppose we'll wait for your video to come online.

I'm sorry, it is 5 mintues to midnight in the U.K. If a proper response is what you wish then when I next have the free time then I will post a lengthy reponse to those who have posted their views on society.