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View Full Version : H1N1 = Bioweapons ?


nowid50
26-09-09, 22:57
Hello,

As sometimes now, the rumors are getting stronger and stronger about it and well I still can't stay like that when things seems to get in the way all it is described...

If you want to have some proofs and evidences of these "Bioweapons" just get my compilations of documents in english and french right here :

http://trc.servegame.com/grippe.rar

I hope this will never happen because it seems so irreal but still so possible...
Send this around you, you can't know what will happen tomorrow !:(

Sincerly,
Nowid50

Chocola teapot
26-09-09, 23:01
How Unpleasant.

Legend of Lara
26-09-09, 23:02
How Unpleasant.

Hmyes...

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:11
Hmmm, it woudnt be the first time an virus is a bioweapon, AIDS was developed by USA...

nowid50
26-09-09, 23:13
Hmmm, it woudnt be the first time an virus is a bioweapon, AIDS was developed by USA...As I said, I clearly want it to be some psychotics thinking but read the documents... Things goes so well one by one...:confused::(
Even a German Doctor thinks that this is a bioweapon (I included this in the archive upper).

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:19
Hmmm, it woudnt be the first time an virus is a bioweapon, AIDS was developed by USA...Now that's just ridiculous. :rolleyes:

If the H1N1 virus is a bioweapon then it's certainly a terrible one at that! :vlol: These conspiracy theories just get stupider by the year.

Chocola teapot
26-09-09, 23:20
Hmmm, it woudnt be the first time an virus is a bioweapon, AIDS was developed by USA...

It originated in africa.

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:21
It originated in africa.Indeed. If AIDS really was developed by the American government then why would they spend millions, if not billions of dollars trying to cure it and help prevent it?

Tony9595
26-09-09, 23:22
I guess it doesn't really matters now, after seeing what this thread became :pi:

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:23
It originated in africa.

After being used on a comunity by the USA to test it as a weapon...

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:24
Indeed. If AIDS really was developed by the American government then why would they spend millions, if not billions of dollars trying to cure it and help prevent it?

Because their own country has a high level of infected people...

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:24
Indeed. If AIDS really was developed by the American government then why would they spend millions, if not billions of dollars trying to cure it and help prevent it?

Exactly. Next thing you know, people are going to be saying the aliens started it all.

This girl that sits right next to me in my Spanish class got the swine flu and did she die? No, not even close. She was just gone a few days, like a regular flu. Did I get it? No. If this is going to be called a bioweapon then it's a pretty poor one at that.

takamotosan
26-09-09, 23:25
I really doubt this is supposed to be a weapon. It's just the flu.

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:28
Because their own country has a high level of infected people...Russia has a higher prevelancy of AIDS than the US. Therefore, by your logic, they're the more likely culprits. :rolleyes: Of course, Africa has the highest number of infected people.

Have you not considered that there might be contributing factors as to why America has a higher prevelancy of AIDS than most other western countries?

Chocola teapot
26-09-09, 23:29
After being used on a comunity by the USA to test it as a weapon...

It ORIGINATED in africa, it existed there for a while, actually in chimpanzees for many years.

Love2Raid
26-09-09, 23:31
It's Influenza, it's way older than bio weapons lol. It just mutates once in a few years and then more people get sick. This really has nothing to do with the government, neither has HIV. HIV came from apes in Africa.

nowid50
26-09-09, 23:34
It's Influenza, it's way older than bio weapons lol. It just mutates once in a few years and then more people get sick. This really has nothing to do with the government, neither has HIV. HIV came from apes in Africa.Look into the archive, things aren't seems to be that way...

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:34
Irritating people, the AIDS virus originated in Africa where it was spread to Haiti, where a homosexual flight attendent called "Patient Zero" contracted it. He returned to the U.S. where he unintentionally spread it. If y'all are going to start conspiracy theories then atleast base them on a factual basis. :hea:

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:35
It ORIGINATED in africa, it existed there for a while, actually in chimpanzees for many years.

Just because it appeared in Africa doesnt meen it wasnt made somewhere else, I beleve it was made in the USA and than they let it to some villige comunities in Africa... yes the virus appeared first in Africa, but it originates from the USA laboratories...

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:35
Just because it appeared in Africa doesnt meen it wasnt made somewhere else, I beleve it was made in the USA and than they let it to some villige comunities in Africa... yes the virus appeared first in Africa, but it originates from the USA laboratories...Proof? What were these laboratories called? Were you present in any of them? Is there substantial evidence to support this claim?

Anyway, why would they do that and then spend billions trying to cure it? Makes absolutely no sense.

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:36
Just because it appeared in Africa doesnt meen it wasnt made somewhere else, I beleve it was made in the USA and than they let it to some villige comunities in Africa... yes the virus appeared first in Africa, but it originates from the USA laboratories...

Proof?

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:37
Proof?

Anyway, why would they do that and then spend billions trying to cure it? Makes absolutely no sense.

They didnt predict that the virus would get loose and out of control, and how come if they spent billions and billions there is till no cure, no cure what soever...

nowid50
26-09-09, 23:39
They didnt predict that the virus would get loose and out of control, and how come if they spent billions and billions there is till no cure, no cure what soever...Yes but you can't compare Flu with AIDS since they "works" in really different ways... AIDS just eats your own defense while Flu kills cells. (almost)

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:39
They didnt predict that the virus would get loose and out of control, and how come if they spent billions and billions there is till no cure, no cure what soever...Where's the proof?

Throwing money at something doesn't necessarily mean you'll find a cure. Even more has been spent on curing cancer but do we actually have a proper cure for it yet? No. Is there a conspiracy there too?

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:40
Why is the U.S. solely responsible for creating a cure? Hmm? If you're so convinced that America started it all then why not prove it and while you're at it convince your country to make a cure if you think it's that easy.

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:41
Yes but you can't compare Flu with AIDS since they "works" in really different ways... AIDS just eats your own defense while Flu kills cells. (almost)

Who is comparing, H1N1 is nothing comapared to aids, but since this thread is about bioweapons, AIDS should be mentioned...

And a question to you who say AIDS originates from monkeys, how did a human get it hmm?

Love2Raid
26-09-09, 23:42
Who is comparing, H1N1 is nothing comapared to aids, but since this thread is about bioweapons, AIDS should be mentioned...

And a question to you who say AIDS originates from monkeys, how did a human get it hmm?

The humans ate their flesh/meat.

Sorry for the 'wikipedia', but it's the fastest way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simian_immunodeficiency_virus
SIV

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:43
Where's the proof?

Throwing money at something doesn't necessarily mean you'll find a cure. Even more has been spent on curing cancer but do we actually have a proper cure for it yet? No. Is there a conspiracy there too?

But cancer is curable, there is a hope to live, yes there is no instant cure to make you well, but you can get rid of it...while with AIDS there is nothing, you just know that one day youll catch a cold and than its all over...

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:44
Do your research. People got it from eating apes that had contracted the virus then it morphed into the AIDS we know today. Geez, why is it that I learned all this information in the 9th grade and no one knows about it?

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:46
But cancer is curable, there is a hope to live, yes there is no instant cure to make you well, but you can get rid of it...while with AIDS there is nothing, you just know that one day youll catch a cold and than its all over...How do you know AIDS isn't curable? The research on a cure for cancer and a cure for AIDS are pretty much the same. They're both costing billions and are a long and slow process. We're getting there. Slowly.

And all this points to a conspiracy apparently, which you have yet to back up with any evidence.

Love2Raid
26-09-09, 23:50
But cancer is curable, there is a hope to live, yes there is no instant cure to make you well, but you can get rid of it...while with AIDS there is nothing, you just know that one day youll catch a cold and than its all over...

People who are HIV positive and get proper treatment usually live way longer than people who are diagnosed with cancer. I know there is no real cure, yet, but there is neither one for cancer.

[/off-topic]

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:51
That's because there is no evidence. They're just going to keep spouting off ignorant comments. May I ask why it's America that you think is the culprit because quite frankly, I find your assumption laughable.

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:52
How do you know AIDS isn't curable? The research on a cure for cancer and a cure for AIDS are pretty much the same. They're both costing billions and are a long and slow process. We're getting there. Slowly.

And all this points to a conspiracy apparently, which you have yet to back up with any evidence.

At the moment AIDS isnt curable, cancer can be cured, reaserch in cure for cancer is far ahead than the reaserch for cure for AIDS...

Just google Aids made in USA, youll get tons of articles, its the only thing I can give you as a back up, no more than you can give me as a backup on the monkeys story

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:53
That's because there is no evidence. They're just going to keep spouting off ignorant comments. May I ask why it's America that you think is the culprit because quite frankly, I find your assumption laughable.Apparently because America has a high-rate of HIV, at least in comparison to other western nations. This is true, but it hardly points to a conspiracy.

At the moment AIDS isnt curable, cancer can be cured, reaserch in cure for cancer is far ahead than the reaserch for cure for AIDS...

Just google Aids made in USA, youll get tons of articles, its the only thing I can give you as a back up, no more than you can give me as a backup on the monkeys storyHow do you know this? Are you a scientist?

Yeah, I've looked into these theories but they're not exactly plausible.

violentblossom
26-09-09, 23:53
Irritating people, the AIDS virus originated in Africa where it was spread to Haiti, where a homosexual flight attendent called "Patient Zero" contracted it. He returned to the U.S. where he unintentionally spread it. If y'all are going to start conspiracy theories then atleast base them on a factual basis. :hea:

Proof? What were these laboratories called? Were you present in any of them? Is there substantial evidence to support this claim?

Anyway, why would they do that and then spend billions trying to cure it? Makes absolutely no sense.

That's because there is no evidence. They're just going to keep spouting off ignorant comments. May I ask why it's America that you think is the culprit because quite frankly, I find your assumption laughable.


ALL of this. :tmb:

Really now, this thread has some of the most ridiculous conspiracy theories I've ever heard. If you can't back up your claims, then you're essentially preaching a nasty rumor.

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:56
At the moment AIDS isnt curable, cancer can be cured, reaserch in cure for cancer is far ahead than the reaserch for cure for AIDS...

Just google Aids made in USA, youll get tons of articles, its the only thing I can give you as a back up, no more than you can give me as a backup on the monkeys story

Backup on monkey story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12966623/

There, now tell me I can't back up my story when you have yet to do the same.

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:56
How do you know this? Are you a scientist?



No, Im not, but its a logical conclusion that if cancer can be cured and aids cant that cancer cure reaserch is far ahead then aids cure reaserch

JRod2208
26-09-09, 23:58
No, Im not, but its a logical conclusion that if cancer can be cured and aids cant that cancer cure reaserch is far ahead then aids cure reaserch

None of your posts have been logical so how can I follow your points?

Legend of Lara
26-09-09, 23:59
Just google Aids made in USA, youll get tons of articles, its the only thing I can give you as a back up, no more than you can give me as a backup on the monkeys story

Speculation. Theories. Nothing set in stone. There is absolutely no proof that AIDS was created in the USA for use as a biological weapon.

January_Snow*
26-09-09, 23:59
Backup on monkey story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12966623/


A backup is a research done in Washington, yeah they would surley admit "Hell yeah, the we made the virus, so what, we killed millions of people so what?"...well they can always say how they had to do it because of "non democratic" conditions in rest of the world

Mad Tony
26-09-09, 23:59
No, Im not, but its a logical conclusion that if cancer can be cured and aids cant that cancer cure reaserch is far ahead then aids cure reaserchSo just because at the present time there is no cure that doesn't mean there wont be one in the future? That's what they said about cancer.

Also, even if AIDS can never be cured, how does that mean it was made by the US government? The common cold can't be cured, does that mean that the cold was made by the American government too? You know it's not so much your claims I find ridiculous, it's the reasons you use to try and support these claims.

JRod2208
27-09-09, 00:05
A backup is a research done in Washington, yeah they would surley admit "Hell yeah, the we made the virus, so what, we killed millions of people so what?"...well they can always say how they had to do it because of "non democratic" conditions in rest of the world

You have now passed the point of being illogical to not making any sense. I don't even know what you mean by your post.

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 00:05
So just because at the present time there is no cure that doesn't mean there wont be one in the future? That's what they said about cancer.

Also, even if AIDS can never be cured, how does that mean it was made by the US government? The common cold can't be cured, does that mean that the cold was made by the American government too? You know it's not so much your claims I find ridiculous, it's the reasons you use to try and support these claims.

When you say a virus isnt curable, it means there is no medicaton for it, that doesnt exclud that the medication will be made in the future...

A common cold is curable with antibiotics, AIDS isnt curable, so its something very strong, since scientiest cant find a cure after 30 years...Im not saying that because its not curable it was made by the USA, its just a fact that stands that it was made by the USA...

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 00:08
When you say a virus isnt curable, it means there is no medicaton for it, that doesnt exclud that the medication will be made in the future...

A common cold is curable with antibiotics, AIDS isnt curable, so its something very strong, since scientiest cant find a cure after 30 years...Im not saying that because its not curable it was made by the USA, its just a fact that stands that it was made by the USA...No, the common cold is not curable by antibiotics. That's infections. You're getting the two mixed up. The common cold cannot be cured. Must mean it's a... conspiracy! :eek:

Proof? Really, I want some definitive proof because saying it's a fact is a huge statement to make.

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 00:12
No, the common cold is not curable by antibiotics. That's infections. You're getting the two mixed up. The common cold cannot be cured. Must mean it's a... conspiracy! :eek:

Proof? Really, I want some definitive proof because saying it's a fact is a huge statement to make.

The fact alone that people dont die out of common colds means its curable, or what, when you catch a cold youre sick for rest of your life?

And I want the proof that I am wrong, why should proofs made by scientists from Washington and internet articles have more value than any proof against them?

JRod2208
27-09-09, 00:12
No, the common cold is not curable with today's antibiotics. They only help someone fight it off. These so called "facts" you are posting do not make any sense and quite frankly, I think you are just basing this on the hatred you seem to have towards America. I think this is just you trying to pass off your opinions as facts. I can do the same thing. I think that it is a fact that the background of this forum is purple. My "fact" is just as logical and just as ridiculous as yours. It is easily disproven and can be taken just as seriously.

nowid50
27-09-09, 00:14
Is this topic has become "AIDS and USA : USA made AIDS ?"...:confused:

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 00:15
The fact alone that people dont die out of common colds means its curable, or what, when you catch a cold youre sick for rest of your life?

And I want the proof that I am wrong, why should proofs made by scientists from Washington and internet articles have more value than any proof against them?No, the common cold is not curable. The common cold is a virus and every strain of it is different, hence why there is no cure for it. Recovering from a cold is different from a cure. This is what you're getting mixed up with. I thought this was common knowledge.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/13/science/sci-cold13

It's not just scientists in Washington, it's scientists all over the world - scientists who know far more than you and I do.

@nowid50: That and "the common cold is curable" thread. :vlol:

JRod2208
27-09-09, 00:20
January_Snow*, prove me and Mad Tony wrong then. Actually PROVE it. I'm sure we both would love to see you try. Do your research, send us links from a reliable source. You might as well, you aren't making any progress with your current methods.

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 00:21
No, the common cold is not curable. The common cold is a virus and every strain of it is different, hence why there is no cure for it. Recovering from a cold is different from a cure. This is what you're getting mixed up with. I thought this was common knowledge.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/13/science/sci-cold13

It's not just scientists in Washington, it's scientists all over the world - scientists who know far more than you and I do.

@nowid50: That and "the common cold is curable" thread. :vlol:

What do you consider as a non curable desise? I consider it every desise that can afect your life to the point that you cant live normal, and result in fatal conseqences...a common cold certanly doesnt result in fatal conseqences...

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 00:24
What do you consider as a non curable desise? I consider it every desise that can afect your life to the point that you cant live normal, and result in fatal conseqences...a common cold certanly doesnt result in fatal conseqences...:hea: You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "cure".

A non curable disease is a disease which cannot be cured by any known methods. In the case of the common cold, there is no cure therefore there's no way of preventing somebody from getting it. Doesn't mean they're gonna die, just means that you can't prevent them from getting it in future and there is nothing you can do or take which suddenly relieves you of your cold. A disease doesn't have to be fatal to be incurable. Arthritis is a good example. There is no cure for Arthritis but it's certainly not a fatal disease.

nowid50
27-09-09, 00:24
What do you consider as a non curable desise? I consider it every desise that can afect your life to the point that you cant live normal, and result in fatal conseqences...a common cold certanly doesnt result in fatal conseqences...Cureable is when you take medecine for healing up.
There's no medicine for cold ;)

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 00:26
Cureable is when you take medecine for healing up.
There's no medicine for cold ;)

Language barrier :) in my language cureable means every desise that you can recover from (with a medicine or withouth one)

JRod2208
27-09-09, 00:26
What do you consider as a non curable desise? I consider it every desise that can afect your life to the point that you cant live normal, and result in fatal conseqences...a common cold certanly doesnt result in fatal conseqences...

Ahh! There you go again. Using words like "consider". You are passing your opinions as facts! There aren't many other things that I find more irritating than people that pass their opinions as facts! Herpes cannot kill you and yet, it is an incurible disease. By your broken logic, herpes is apparently curable.

Encore
27-09-09, 00:35
Cureable is when you take medecine for healing up.
There's no medicine for cold ;)

Correction: there is medicine for the common cold but all it does is help it pass, it doesn't prevent you from catching it again one year later.

knightgames
27-09-09, 00:37
The fact alone that people dont die out of common colds means its curable, or what, when you catch a cold youre sick for rest of your life?

And I want the proof that I am wrong, why should proofs made by scientists from Washington and internet articles have more value than any proof against them?

Never mind. This is laughable.

larafan25
27-09-09, 02:29
It originated in africa.

hi^:)

anyways ya this is crazy!!!

however I totally believe that it was planned....

just like 911 was planned by president bush:)

violentblossom
27-09-09, 02:30
just like 911 was planned by president bush:)

You CAN'T be serious..

larafan25
27-09-09, 02:49
You CAN'T be serious..

I watched a show about this...but please explain because I don't know much about it, aside from terrorists crashing planes into the towers...but would the buildings not have looks like they were exploding instead of imploding?:)

violentblossom
27-09-09, 02:55
I watched a show about this...but please explain because I don't know much about it, aside from terrorists crashing planes into the towers...but would the buildings not have looks like they were exploding instead of imploding?:)

Well, I have heard things like that, too, and it didn't sound horribly far-fetched at the time, but what evidence is there to suggest that Bush specifically was behind it?

larafan25
27-09-09, 02:58
Well, I have heard things like that, too, and it didn't sound horribly far-fetched at the time, but what evidence is there to suggest that Bush specifically was behind it?

because Bush was crazy...

all he was good for was dodging shoes....:)

anyways, the building imploded, yes a plane still crashed into it but(going by this theory) there was already bombs planted in the building, like when you are demolishing a building and there are bombs placed in the building it implodes, and that is what the building did, the plan wouldn't have made the building fall the way it did...

also I hear some crap that Bush wanted to start a war(well they were kinda already at war) but I don't remember why he wanted to start a war:)

violentblossom
27-09-09, 03:02
because Bush was crazy...

all he was good for was dodging shoes....:)

anyways, the building imploded, yes a plane still crashed into it but(going by this theory) there was already bombs planted in the building, like when you are demolishing a building and there are bombs placed in the building it implodes, and that is what the building did, the plan wouldn't have made the building fall the way it did...

also I hear some crap that Bush wanted to start a war(well they were kinda already at war) but I don't remember why he wanted to start a war:)


Did you hear the Pentagon theories, also?? The bit about how when you look at pictures of the crash site from that day, there's no real plane wreckage or even evidence of a plane?

larafan25
27-09-09, 03:12
no I haven't(untill now)

did anyone actually see the plane go in?

I vaguely remember hearing that a plan didn't actually hit a building, maybe it was about this...I wonder if there are any videos of the pentagon incident...:)(going to check)

JRod2208
27-09-09, 08:05
Why do you people talk about these things when you don't know what you're talking about in the least?! Here's what happened:

Four planes were hijacked. Two were meant for the World Trade Center, one for the White House and one for the Pentagon. The two that crashed into the Twin Towers cut off some of the top floors completely thereby dooming the people trapped there to their fate. Fires started. I don't know if you know this, but the Towers were made of a steel frame. The fires melted the frames holding those top floors. Then, they gave out. They crashed down onto the floor below it, then down to the floor below that one, then the next, then the next one. It was a chain reaction. Those two huge, majestic Towers that had once dominated New York City's skyline fell to their knees. A cloud of dust appeared. People ran for their lives. But, however catastophic those last laboring breaths those two Towers had, was nothing compared to what had happened before that. People begging, trapped by fire, to get out. Some so desperate not to die at the hands of that horrible red, hot monster licking at their feet, that they jumped. Jumped and died.

The plane that was meant for the White House never made it. Those brave passengers rose up and gave their lives for the very man whom you all think was behind this atrocity.

The Pentagon plane found its mark and more people died there as well. Thousands died. Families torn apart. Children orphaned.

I was nine years old on September 11, 2001 and I will never forget the sight of those Towers burning, going up in smoke and falling, falling into nothingness. I will never unsee those poor, helpless people jumping to what they had seen was their salvation. It was horrible. And you know what caused it? Not one man. There was no secret war. What ultimately let it happen were the selfish efforts of the FBI, the CIA and all the other organizations that all knew a piece of the puzzle. However, they all hated working with each other. None of them wanted to share information. There were tests on airport security. Almost all the major airports failed miserably. But nothing was done to change that. They were lazy and lulled into a false sense of security. Ever sense that day, I was interested in how something so horrible and so drastic could be allowed to happen. I watched the all the anniversary investigations on television. Read all the reports on it and it all pointed to the same thing: Lack of judgement. To try to blame this on the President of the United States of America is crude at best.

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 10:20
The Pentagon plane found its mark and more people died there as well. Thousands died. Families torn apart. Children orphaned.

I was nine years old on September 11, 2001 and I will never forget the sight of those Towers burning, going up in smoke and falling, falling into nothingness. I will never unsee those poor, helpless people jumping to what they had seen was their salvation. It was horrible. And you know what caused it? Not one man. There was no secret war. What ultimately let it happen were the selfish efforts of the FBI, the CIA and all the other organizations that all knew a piece of the puzzle. However, they all hated working with each other. None of them wanted to share information. There were tests on airport security. Almost all the major airports failed miserably. But nothing was done to change that. They were lazy and lulled into a false sense of security. Ever sense that day, I was interested in how something so horrible and so drastic could be allowed to happen. I watched the all the anniversary investigations on television. Read all the reports on it and it all pointed to the same thing: Lack of judgement. To try to blame this on the President of the United States of America is crude at best.

Exactly what your country was doing to the rest of the world for past decades... And a will of one man is very powerfull, dont underastimate it, and Bush was a selfish ******* who thought he can control the world, Im not supporting what happened on 9/11, and people deaths are horrible, no matter where, but America got a taste of their own medicine, it still cant match the number of children that were orphaned because they think the world is their playground...

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 10:48
hi^:)

anyways ya this is crazy!!!

however I totally believe that it was planned....

just like 911 was planned by president bush:):hea:

Even though this has absolutely no relevancy to viruses and diseases, I just knew this bull**** would come up eventually.

because Bush was crazy...

all he was good for was dodging shoes....:)

anyways, the building imploded, yes a plane still crashed into it but(going by this theory) there was already bombs planted in the building, like when you are demolishing a building and there are bombs placed in the building it implodes, and that is what the building did, the plan wouldn't have made the building fall the way it did...

also I hear some crap that Bush wanted to start a war(well they were kinda already at war) but I don't remember why he wanted to start a war:)I happened to watch a program on 9/11 conspiracy theories last night on the National Geographic channel. All of the big theories were debunked by EXPERTS.

Take the collapse of the towers for example. Demolition experts went through the process of of how they demolished a small 8-story building. It's not something you can do stealthily and it took them weeks - and that's for a building that was 10 times smaller than the World Trade Center. These demolition experts said that it would be pretty much impossible to plant the sufficient amount of explosives in the World Trade Center (which would be a lot) without being caught.

The towers were indeed built to withstand fire but what they weren't built for however, was a big jumbo jet packed with jet fuel flying into them at high speeds. I think it's estimated that something like 10,000 gallons of jet fuel was inside each tower. This jet fuel was pouring down the elevator shafts and helped to spread the fire throughout the whole building. Eventually, the steel softened and gave way at the impact zones, causing the horrific collapse everyone saw live on TV. I'd definitely advise you to watch this documentary if you can. It's filled to the brim with scientific facts that debunk these ludicrous theories. :)

Here's a good website as well

http://www.debunking911.com/

Oh, and a plane did hit the pentagon. Can't believe anybody would actually dispute that.

http://www.odeion.org/cruisemissile/wreckage.jpg

f0vxc50xAbk

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/022.jpg/022-full.jpg

How could a missile knock down several street lights?

but America got a taste of their own medicine, it still cant match the number of children that were orphaned because they think the world is their playground...Ah yes, I forgot, because the thousands of innocent office workers and airline passengers, not to mention hundreds of heroic firemen would've really been involved in supposedly killing all of these people around the world.

Your_Envy*
27-09-09, 10:51
Is this topic has become "AIDS and USA : USA made AIDS ?"...:confused:

Yes. Oh and don't forget to mention Bush and 911. ;)

Back on topic, I doubt H1N1 will be a bioweapon, it's not so strong. Well, people can make it much more stronger with mutations, that's for sure, and I hope this won't happen.
I am not a scientist, I had Microbiology, Biotechnology and Laboratory Practice in school for 3 years, and now I am going to study Biology so I hope I will understand everything in few years (same with AIDS thing you are talking about right now.). I won't say anything cause I have no proof whatsoever. Nikola, I think you should show everybody some proof and say it in a scientific way, not just saying something cause you think so. You are saying that USA is guilty for AIDS, that's actually a big accusation.

Ikas90
27-09-09, 11:06
I love how people panic over the swine flu being some kind of deadly virus. :rolleyes: To the point that it could have been a bio-weapon.

Well if it was a bio-weapon, it failed miserably. People need to put a wee bit more effort in if they want to kill us all. ;)

Punaxe
27-09-09, 11:20
Hello,

As sometimes now, the rumors are getting stronger and stronger about it and well I still can't stay like that when things seems to get in the way all it is described...

If you want to have some proofs and evidences of these "Bioweapons" just get my compilations of documents in english and french right here :

http://trc.servegame.com/grippe.rar

I hope this will never happen because it seems so irreal but still so possible...
Send this around you, you can't know what will happen tomorrow !:(

Sincerly,
Nowid50

The only reason I can find in those documents why it should be a weapon is because other vaccines have been barred from export to terrorism-supporting nations because they could be used for biological terrorism. This notion in itself makes little sense, but it is based on the fact that vaccines contain a trace of the original virus, and they think that the terrorism-supporting nations may be able to isolate the virus and then use it against us. Because the traces are hugely weakened or even inactive, this is pretty much impossible and the US is going a little overboard here. If you knew anything about vaccines, you know this is simply how it works. Nothing interesting going on here. This ban by the way does not apply to pandemic flus, so even less interesting going on here in this case.

Your "proof" also explains how the US has emergency protocols that grants the government special rights in case of a potential outbreak. Every nation has such protocols to protect its citizens.

So let me go with it for a bit... Let's say it is possible to isolate the actual virus from the vaccine and countries will quarantaine areas when the virus breaks out... How on Earth does it follow that it is a biological weapon created by the US?

Johnnay
27-09-09, 11:22
if this is true i hope there is Resident Evil 2 and 3 on the streets.( if that weapon can create zombies):vlol:

it'll be just like the games

scion05
27-09-09, 11:25
The thing with the cure to aids is that, even in one was found, how do we know it'd get released ? Pharmaceutical companies are business too, and would make a lot more money repeatedly treating patients for the illness as opposed to giving one off cures, so we don't know when we'll actually see a cure, or vaccine, but I hope it's within our lifetimes, preferably very soon.

In other news :

http://www.thebody.com/content/art53624.html?ic=700100

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 11:35
Ah yes, I forgot, because the thousands of innocent office workers and airline passengers, not to mention hundreds of heroic firemen would've really been involved in supposedly killing all of these people around the world.

Please dont talk to me about innocent people dying, hundraids of people died in Belgrade, here in my home town, because of what? Because the USA wanted to go and make a base in our country, so they bombarded us in 1999, officially the were shooting only military buildings, but they droped a couple dozen bombs on civilian buildings... If the USA doesnt have consideration for the rest of the world, why should the rest of the world have consideration to it?

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 11:39
Please dont talk to me about innocent people dying, hundraids of people died in Belgrade, here in my home town, because of what? Because the USA wanted to go and make a base in our country, so they bombarded us in 1999, officially the were shooting only military buildings, but they droped a couple dozen bombs on civilian buildings... If the USA doesnt have consideration for the rest of the world, why should the rest of the world have consideration to it?Actually that was a NATO operation, which involved many other countries as well as the US.

You go on about how much you care for the innocent civilian deaths, and yet you go around saying the US deserved 9/11? Do you not understand that the people who died on 9/11 were innocent civilians too? Not only that but many foreign nationals died on 9/11 too, including some 60+ Brits. Talk about hypocrisy.

For those of you wondering, I highlighted the British deaths because there were by far more Brits who died on 9/11 than any other country (bar the US of course) and also because I am British, so I find it particularly disgusting that January Snow somehow thinks all of those innocent people deserved it.

Johnnay
27-09-09, 11:42
Tbh this thread has a lot of irony I think

and besides that invasion of Serbia by NATO had something to do with Kosovo not some bases January snow??????

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 11:44
Tbh this thread has a lot of irony I think

and besides that invasion of Serbia by NATO had something to do with Kosovo not some bases January snow??????Yep. It had nothing to do with a base.

larson n natla
27-09-09, 11:45
They screwed that up badly cuz we got vaccines comin in december roll on the cure :p

Johnnay
27-09-09, 11:48
They screwed that up badly cuz we got vaccines comin in december roll on the cure :p

Whatever
I'm not taking that needle. I don't wish to turn into a bioweapon of some sort

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 11:48
Whatever
I'm not taking that needle. I don't wish to turn into a bioweapon of some sortWhat, you honestly think the vaccines have got something in them which is going to kill you?

Your_Envy*
27-09-09, 11:49
Since we're talking about wars, how many Serbian people killed Muslim in Srebrenica, Nikola? There are ALWAYS poor victims and always some stupid people who think war is good. Let's not start the war conversation cause this leads to nowhere. And we went from H1N1 to AIDS and now wars. Lovely.

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 11:56
Tbh this thread has a lot of irony I think

and besides that invasion of Serbia by NATO had something to do with Kosovo not some bases January snow??????

Kosovo is the USA base in Europe, that was their goal...
Yes a NATO operation that was led by the USA

Since we're talking about wars, how many Serbian people killed Muslim in Srebrenica, Nikola?

Ana you yourself should know that was a war between two sides, muslims killed serbs too, even more than serbs killed muslims, but Im not talking about that war... Im talking about the injustice that USA made on the world, we didnt attack them, didnt offend them, just out of the blue they decided to bombard us for their selfish goal, the same is with the distruction of Iraq...

Johnnay
27-09-09, 11:57
What, you honestly think the vaccines have got something in them which is going to kill you?

LMAO

just thinking of these secret reports remind me of Resident Evil and their bioweapons a bitsimilar to this
that's why I wrote that. but then you may never know. It could be true

@Ana,yes you are right. I don't understand why some ppl are mentioning past wars here about something different

Your_Envy*
27-09-09, 11:59
Ana you yourself should know that was a war between two sides, muslims killed serbs too, even more than serbs killed muslims, but Im not talking about that war... Im talking about the injustice that USA made on the world, we didnt attack them, didnt offend them, just out of the blue they decided to bombard us for their selfish goal, the same is with the distruction of Iraq...

I know Nikola, I was just saying that Serbs are also not innocent. I mean, who is innocent these days anyway?

Wait, I think it was NATO's fault.

@Johnnay.. I think this thread will get locked. I will stop posting now, I feel sorry for poor moderators. :o

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 12:01
Kosovo is the USA base in Europe, that was their goal...
Yes a NATO operation that was led by the USAAnd that justifies the murder of thousands of innocent Americans, not to mention hundreds of other innocent civilians from other countries how?

nowid50
27-09-09, 12:16
What, you honestly think the vaccines have got something in them which is going to kill you?Read into the files I posted in the first post, there are some evidences of that...:(

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 12:27
And that justifies the murder of thousands of innocent Americans, not to mention hundreds of other innocent civilians from other countries how?

Because American goverment killed and is still killing innocent civilians from other countries, they needed a taste of their own medicine...but its not like it stoped them or anything, they are still on their little military party in the middle east...

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 12:31
[FONT="Century Gothic"]I know Nikola, I was just saying that Serbs are also not innocent. I mean, who is innocent these days anyway?
/FONT]

I never said that Serbs are innocent, but every war we led was to defend our country or our people, we did nothing to deserve the bombardment of Belgrade in 1999, and thousands of innocent civilians are dead, and children lost their parents to please USA selfishness...

I will follow your example and not post here anymore, I said what I had to say...

Mr.Burns
27-09-09, 12:33
Because American goverment killed and is still killing innocent civilians from other countries, they needed a taste of their own medicine...but its not like it stoped them or anything, they are still on their little military party in the middle east...

So you feel that the wrongs caused by a government are justified to enact acts of violence against people whom are following orders, have lives and families of their own?

larson n natla
27-09-09, 12:43
Whatever
I'm not taking that needle. I don't wish to turn into a bioweapon of some sort

I might not either purely because I cant abide needles :o

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 12:50
Because American goverment killed and is still killing innocent civilians from other countries, they needed a taste of their own medicine...but its not like it stoped them or anything, they are still on their little military party in the middle east...Well then one could argue that the Serbs "needed a taste of their own medicine" after killing so many Muslims during the Yugoslav wars. :wve:

I don't hold this particular view, but by your logic Serbia deserved what it got in the 1999 Belgrade bombings. See what I mean now when I said you were hypocritical?

Johnnay
27-09-09, 12:54
January snow mad Tonys right I mean the Bosnian genocide in srebenerica and Serbian aggresion against Bosnia( republika Srpska) are great examples plus Serbias desire to take Croatia and Slovenia back by force. I still remember that Slovenia was the first of the Yugoslav nations to seccede from Serbia anyways.

Love2Raid
27-09-09, 13:00
Wow, this thread has turned into the 'general conspiracy thread'...:o

This is good reading material lol.

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 13:16
Well then one could argue that the Serbs "needed a taste of their own medicine" after killing so many Muslims during the Yugoslav wars. :wve:

I don't hold this particular view, but by your logic Serbia deserved what it got in the 1999 Belgrade bombings. See what I mean now when I said you were hypocritical?


Serbs killed muslims because muslims killed Serbs first, our attack on Bosnia was purely caused by ethincal cleaning that was started against serbs there...

January snow mad Tonys right I mean the Bosnian genocide in srebenerica and Serbian aggresion against Bosnia(republika Srpska) are great examples plus Serbias desire to take Croatia and Slovenia back by force. I still remember that Slovenia was the first of the Yugoslav nations to seccede from Serbia anyways.

I never said we are not guilty, but what anoys me is that everyone is talking how Serbs commited genocide but no one talks about genocides that were commited against Serbs... And Serbia never had any interest in Slovenia, it departed from Yugoslavia peacefully, because they didnt try to kill every Serb that was on their territory, like Croats did, and thats also why the war in Croatia happened, Serbian towns were burned to grounds and our churches, everything Serbia did was out of selfdefence, so please Johnnay and Mad Tony, I know you think youre right, but what western media has served to people about Balkan wars is very untrue, I know what happened there cause I have alot of friends who's families had to escape from bosnians and croatians to save their heads...so please dont talk to me about something you know very little about...

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 13:21
Serbs killed muslims because muslims killed Serbs first, our attack on Bosnia was purely caused by ethincal cleaning that was started against serbs there...But many innocent people died as a result of the Serb attacks during the Yugoslav wars. Again, by your logic, this means that they "needed a taste of their own medicine" and they got it.

so please dont talk to me about something you know very little about...Same goes for you and AIDS. :)

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 13:24
But many innocent people died as a result of the Serb attacks during the Yugoslav wars. Again, by your logic, this means that they "needed a taste of their own medicine" and they got it.

The difference is that Serbia did it to protect its people who were being tortured in Bosnia and Croatia...America does it to get to resorces, and satisfy its own selfish needs, not to protect anyone, just kill people in countries that did absolutley no harm to them...

Same goes for you and AIDS. :)

So you say that no one should talk about AIDS, are you a scientist working with AIDS? If you were I certanly wouldnt say facts about AIDS to cotradict you...

Your_Envy*
27-09-09, 13:25
January snow mad Tonys right I mean the Bosnian genocide in srebenerica and Serbian aggresion against Bosnia( republika Srpska) are great examples plus Serbias desire to take Croatia and Slovenia back by force. I still remember that Slovenia was the first of the Yugoslav nations to seccede from Serbia anyways.

It was Yugoslavia then, Johnnay. :)

From Wiki: The Ten-Day War (Slovene: Desetdnevna vojna), sometimes called the Slovenian Independence War (Slovene: Slovenska osamosvojitvena vojna), was a brief military conflict between Slovenian TO (Slovenian Territorial Defence) and the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in 1991 following Slovenia's declaration of independence.

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 13:28
The difference is that Serbia did it to protect its people who were being tortured in Bosnia and Croatia...America does it to get to resorces, and satisfy its own selfish needs, not to protect anyone, just kill people in countries that did absolutley no harm to them...You go on about people talking about things they know very little about and yet you say this. :confused: Again, you're being very hypocritical.

So you say that no one should talk about AIDS, are you a scientist working with AIDS? If you were I certanly wouldnt say facts about AIDS to cotradict you...No, but earlier you came up with all this stuff about how AIDS was created by the US government, which just goes to show how little you know about the virus.

tombraiderluka
27-09-09, 13:31
So why this sudden change of a subject? I read all the posts here and I clearly can say that January Snow* and Mad Tony should stop talking about these things cause both of them are teenagers who clearly don't know what they're talking about.

Back on topic: I don't believe H1N1 is a bioweapon, because it's not strong enough, but who knows :)

Your_Envy*
27-09-09, 13:34
Back on topic: I don't believe H1N1 is a bioweapon, because it's not strong enough, but who knows :)

I am glad you didn't mention me. :o

Yeah it's not strong enough, but the mutations can make it stronger. Dunno if people think about H1N1 as bioweapon, I think it would take a lot of work do make it stronger, it's not worth it.

January_Snow*
27-09-09, 13:36
You go on about people talking about things they know very little about and yet you say this. :confused: Again, you're being very hypocritical.

No, but earlier you came up with all this stuff about how AIDS was created by the US government, which just goes to show how little you know about the virus.

Whats so hypocritical?

Knowlege of the virus has nothing to do with its origin, its your choice if you want to beleve the silly chimpanzee story...

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 13:42
Whats so hypocritical?You condemning the US and saying they deserved 9/11 for bombing Belgrade but ignoring the genocidal atrocities that have been commuted by Serbia in the past.

Knowlege of the virus has nothing to do with its origin, its your choice if you want to beleve the silly chimpanzee story...The silly chimpanzee story that's backed up by scientists? If that's silly then what does that make your conspiracy theory?

scion05
27-09-09, 13:44
I read all the posts here and I clearly can say that January Snow* and Mad Tony should stop talking about these things cause both of them are teenagers who clearly don't know what they're talking about.

They both have the right to talk about what they wish on this forum, so long as it abides by our T&C. If they weren't they wouldn't be on this forum. Secondly, what has age got to do with knowing about a topic ?

tombraiderluka
27-09-09, 13:50
They both have the right to talk about what they wish on this forum, so long as it abides by our T&C. If they weren't they wouldn't be on this forum. Secondly, what has age got to do with knowing about a topic ?
Well as from what I've read they were both right and wrong on some points imo and I thought political talk wasn't really allowed here :confused: , I guess I could be wrong. And I meant that they are young, cause they weren't actually there when it all happened to know exactly what's right and what's wrong. We hear many different stories about conspiracies, wars, but no one can actually be sure in what has happened :)

Your_Envy*
27-09-09, 13:51
They both have the right to talk about what they wish on this forum, so long as it abides by our T&C. If they weren't they wouldn't be on this forum. Secondly, what has age got to do with knowing about a topic ?

That's right. :tmb: The only problem is that this is the thread about H1N1 and not about wars. :o
Yeah I commented too, I know. :o

Paperdoll
27-09-09, 13:51
Well as from what I've read they were both right and wrong on some points imo and I thought political talk wasn't really allowed here :confused: , I guess I could be wrong. And I meant that they are young, cause they weren't actually there when it all happened to know exactly what's right and what's wrong. We hear many different stories about conspiracies, wars, but no one can actually be sure in what has happened :)

Because it usually turns into unbridled chaos so... keep it civil and it's all good.

Johnnay
27-09-09, 13:55
Because it usually turns into unbridled chaos so... keep it civil and it's all good.

IMO it's too late
this threads already randomedly plagued about AIDS and wars rather than the swine flu vaccine

Laralissa
27-09-09, 14:16
This thread is hillarious :vlol:

Honestly, Mad Tony is talking sense. Anyone who thinks AIDS and the common cold are conspiracies needs to read up on their science...

Paperdoll
27-09-09, 14:18
IMO it's too late
this threads already randomedly plagued about AIDS and wars rather than the swine flu vaccine

Leave that for us to decide Johnnay.

toxicraider
27-09-09, 16:18
Knowlege of the virus has nothing to do with its origin, its your choice if you want to beleve the silly chimpanzee story...

I don't really want to be involved with the offtopic discussion, but if viruses can mutate from Pigs, Geese/Chickens etc. to humans, then it's hardly silly to suppose one could also mutate from our closest animal relatives. :rolleyes:


But I think H1N1 was too mild for a weapon, unless the aim was just to have a slight impact on the economy, with people taking days off. The worst effect seemed to be on the Mexican tourism industry.
I do think it's possible the calls for concern were intentionally blown out of proportion to move attention away from the economic climate (although I don't believe it's true), but believing the virus was created, seems a little extreme.

Sir Croft
27-09-09, 16:57
Now that's just ridiculous. :rolleyes:

If the H1N1 virus is a bioweapon then it's certainly a terrible one at that! :vlol: These conspiracy theories just get stupider by the year.

:tmb:
Bioweapons should have a much higher mortality rate and that's definitely not the case with H1N1.

EmeraldFields
27-09-09, 17:05
There have been strides in making an HIV vaccine.:)

The news that an experimental AIDS vaccine tested on 16,000 heterosexual volunteers in Thailand had been shown to be safe and modestly effective surprised researchers, who had become used to failure in the decades-long effort to find a vaccine to protect against HIV infection.

The trial relied on a combination of a modified canary-pox vaccine from Sanofi Pasteur and a drug made from an engineered version of a protein found on the AIDS virus, which was made by a Brisbane biotechnology company called VaxGen Inc. The patent for the VaxGen vaccine is now owned by Global Solutions for Infectious Diseases, a nonprofit in South San Francisco.

According to the Thai Ministry of Health and the study's other backers, the vaccine regimen was safe and 31 percent effective in preventing HIV infection compared with a placebo. Researchers described that result as significant and promising for the future, but not enough to make such a product available to the public soon.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/24/MNNM19S3NR.DTL

Although much more research is needed, a vaccine that is 31% affective is a great start.:)

Sir Croft
27-09-09, 17:42
There have been strides in making an HIV vaccine.:)


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/24/MNNM19S3NR.DTL

Although much more research is needed, a vaccine that is 31% affective is a great start.:)

I read about that some days ago, it's indeed great news. :)

scion05
27-09-09, 19:01
And I meant that they are young, cause they weren't actually there when it all happened to know exactly what's right and what's wrong. We hear many different stories about conspiracies, wars, but no one can actually be sure in what has happened :)

You're more likely to be right about a historial or political event afterwards from information revealed and released afterwards because it's much more accurate and less censored... these are called " Secondary Sources ".

Apofiss
27-09-09, 19:34
Answer can be as simple as it is; which one's better: overpopulation (umm in a 780 years from now, which would make 60 billion angry people) OR a few viruses, 'little' wars and etc?

Punaxe
27-09-09, 19:55
Read into the files I posted in the first post, there are some evidences of that...:(

As I said (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=4059785&postcount=69), you (and your sources) are entirely misunderstanding what a vaccine is and the significance/meaning of the (very limited) ban on exporting it. A vaccine contains a watered-down or even deactivated version of the harmful entity and there is basically no way it could do any harm anymore. There is no evidence that it contains anything harmful, there are only foolish interpretations of far-fetched correlations.

jackles
27-09-09, 21:06
*wanders in*

*reads through*

My thoughts.


9/11.....I watched a fascinating programme last night where they basically set about testing all the conspiracy theories such as how the towers collapsed and everything that they tried proved that things happened exactly how it should have according to the evidence. They also blew stuff up...tried heating up steel etc, computer reconconstructions and so on. Everything looked towards the planes hitting.

Aids...no one makes a virus..and releases it without having a cure for themselves. Aids orignated in Africa. It still runs riot there. Culture has a lot to answer for.

Viruses cannot be killed by antibiotics.

Cancer is a blanket term for 'cancers' so can be eradicated if caught in time...but often end up killing people. 'Cancer' is not curable.

Swine flu.....lets just say people are always scared of the next epidemic.

lets think about the Black Death....thinky linky (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/black_death_of_1348_to_1350.htm) It killed 1.5 million in britain..out of a population of 4 million. Was this a manufactured virus? Of course not. Mankind every now and then endures a 'plague' or illness that comes from nowhere. Viruses mutate and evolve.

_Awestruck_
27-09-09, 21:15
Just because it appeared in Africa doesnt meen it wasnt made somewhere else, I beleve it was made in the USA and than they let it to some villige comunities in Africa... yes the virus appeared first in Africa, but it originates from the USA laboratories...

http://media.nscdn.com/uploads/cache/images/1224688306-641935-400x445-lol_wut.jpg

Your beliefs are completely irrelevant to what actually happened. The theories of AIDS originating in Africa have yet to be disproved so therefor they are the most logical.

:rolleyes:

Mad Tony
27-09-09, 21:51
*wanders in*

*reads through*

My thoughts.


9/11.....I watched a fascinating programme last night where they basically set about testing all the conspiracy theories such as how the towers collapsed and everything that they tried proved that things happened exactly how it should have according to the evidence. They also blew stuff up...tried heating up steel etc, computer reconconstructions and so on. Everything looked towards the planes hitting.You must've watched the same program as me. :tmb:

JRod2208
27-09-09, 22:19
January_Snow*, your posts have repeatedly proven to me that I cannot possibly take you seriously. You are blinded by your hatred towards the United States and are unable to contribute anything towards the topic besides your hateful propaganda towards the U.S. You have no proof on anything you've been saying. You are the one making accusations that are contradictory towards what has already been proven so you are the one that has to provide the proof to back up your theories. Not Mad Tony, me and the others. We don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove us wrong. Why? Because our stories a backed up by countless articles and experts, whereas your theories are merely the ramblings of a hateful, ignorant person. I'm sorry, that's just how the world works.

Futhermore, how does anyone deserve 9/11? You cannot say that the U.S. got a "taste of their own medicine." Where are the articles that prove that the U.S. led the attack on your country? You said that Mad Tony is just spouting off the words of the western media so, why don't you prove him wrong? No one, I don't care what you say, deserves 9/11. It was a terrorist attack made for no reason and, unlike your story of the U.S. leading the NATO attack, I can actually go and pull up articles.

knightgames
28-09-09, 00:56
I think Jane Goodall infected the chimpanzees. I have no proof, but I really don't need any do I?