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Apofiss
14-10-09, 10:29
Just a quick experiment to see how some things have evolved over years within education system considering, mostly, EU; more specificly - history.

The question is simple. Which is the most ancient nationality within Europe?

Don't be afraid to be mistaken, answer as it was/is tought to you in school or if you have your own opinion based on solid facts ;]

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 10:30
I'd say Greek? I can't think of any older country/nationality within Europe.
Cannot remember a crap from geography lessons unfortunately and in history we didn't really handle what is the oldest nationality in Europe, so I just shot that from the hip.

Keir_Eidos
14-10-09, 10:33
I was afraid to be mistaken (:o ) but for those of you that are as interested in this (rather loose) question, check out this link (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/754184.html).

Zebra
14-10-09, 10:37
What do you consider a nationality?

Apofiss
14-10-09, 10:40
I was afraid to be mistaken (:o ) but for those of you that are as interested in this (rather loose) question, check out this link (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/754184.html).

I wouldn't suggest reading that pretty much a disinformation ;)

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 10:41
I wouldn't suggest reading that pretty much a disinformation ;)
Hah, I knew so! Just tell me if I'm even close in the random guess? Romans after all copied their culture, just changed names and altered their style slightly. Or it can't be german based can it?

Meh.. all my history books are back in Finland.. want to study now.

Apofiss
14-10-09, 10:44
What do you consider a nationality?

Greeks, for example :]

Yet I'm interested how it was tought to you all in school.

VonCroy360
14-10-09, 10:48
I'd say Greek as well.

Apofiss
14-10-09, 10:50
Hah, I knew so! Just tell me if I'm even close in the random guess? Romans after all copied their culture, just changed names and altered their style slightly. Or it can't be german based can it?

Meh.. all my history books are back in Finland.. want to study now.

To raise your interest a little bit more :D ...THEY are also Greek autochthones.

Zebra
14-10-09, 11:05
Yet I'm interested how it was tought to you all in school.

To be honest we didn't do anything like that in school...I mean...we did have a few lessons about Greeks and Romans and the like. But by far not enough. Unfortunately German history lessons usually focus on WW2 and the like which I find extraordinarily boring. Would've loved to do more about ancient Egypt, or even something about Asian and South American cultures. But that's unfortunately not on the curriculum.

Cochrane
14-10-09, 11:07
I guess Greek works best... most other nations in europe were formed by migrations far later. That being said, I'm guessing here, and Greeks really only have the advantage of being the first civilization, which is quite something different.

I sure hope this isn't some "What's the capital of the state of New York?" sort of thing...

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 11:09
We studied from the dawn of man to modern times, from ancient egypt to present finland, from religions to wars. We had nearly everything to learn. Even american and asian history.

george_croft
14-10-09, 11:13
It feels like it's been ages since my last history class, but I'm positive I was taught it was the Greeks. Not because it was mentioned, per se, but because Greek mythology and history is usually the first thing you read about during history class here.

scoopy_loopy
14-10-09, 11:14
Oh, I guess it depends on what you define a civilisation? The Greeks, I guess. Or the "barbians" of Britian and Germany/France, maybe?

Thats all we touched on in History classes.

Apofiss
14-10-09, 11:17
Okay, so far we have:

a) Greeks
b) ?

I guess Greek works best... most other nations in europe were formed by migrations far later. That being said, I'm guessing here, and Greeks really only have the advantage of being the first civilization, which is quite something different.

I sure hope this isn't some "What's the capital of the state of New York?" sort of thing...

Nope, it's as serious as it gets. Now for years it's being tought in a few(more?) universities (as an optional subject), worldwide (even in US). Also approved by hundreds of well known objective historians from whole Europe and even from Russia/US.

Cochrane
14-10-09, 11:17
Oh, I guess it depends on what you define a civilisation? The Greeks, I guess. Or the "barbians" of Britian and Germany/France, maybe?

Thats all we touched on in History classes.

I would say that a nation would be some ethnically and culturally related group of people. However, all the "barbarians" migrated heavily and mixed a lot until at least 800 AD and hence changed quite a lot, so it's hard to call any of them "oldest", while the greeks pretty much staid where they were.

Edit to add:
Nope, it's as serious as it gets. Now for years it's being tought in a few(more?) universities (as an optional subject), worldwide (even in US). Also approved by hundreds of well known objective historians from whole Europe and even from Russia/US.
Okay. We never had that in history in school, so I stand by my original opinion, but I don't feel quite sure about it.

LaraRules81
14-10-09, 11:18
Vikings?

scoopy_loopy
14-10-09, 11:26
Oh, brain wave! Its not the Camu... something? Starting around the Neolithic period in Italy?

I suddenly remembered because I always thought the name for them sounded like "camel" :p Or the cucu "something"-Trypillian? Or something? The pillian bit always made me think of Syphillis... cause of the y and the lli :pi: :vlol:

I dont remember anything much about either except that the Camu people where Italy and the cucu people where like Ukraine?

Apofiss
14-10-09, 11:37
Cucu for cucumber! :D

Okay. We never had that in history in school, so I stand by my original opinion, but I don't feel quite sure about it.

Input coming later :]

Rai
14-10-09, 12:29
It has been along time since I was in school and even longer since I had a history lesson. European nationalities you say? Um, Well I only ever remember being taught about mainly British History, starting with the Celts and Romans.

Reggie
14-10-09, 12:33
Greeks come to mind like everyone but I know that the Celts go back quite a way as well - they predate any other nationality in Britain.

Ikas90
14-10-09, 12:48
The Romans are pretty old too, I would say. I don't really think there is any older empire than the Greek and Roman Empire. There's the Ottoman, but that's further east.

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 12:53
The Romans are pretty old too, I would say. I don't really think there is any older empire than the Greek and Roman Empire. There's the Ottoman, but that's further east.But Roman culture is basically the same as the Greek culture, just with different names for Gods and things. They pretty much copied their architechture.

Zebra
14-10-09, 12:55
But Roman culture is basically the same as the Greek culture, just with different names for Gods and things. They pretty much copied their architechture.

But their history differs a lot.

scoopy_loopy
14-10-09, 12:56
Cucu for cucumber! :D



Input coming later :]

Am I right? It starts with Cucu? :p

Im 99.5% sure now that it was Cucute ... whatever Trypillians now!

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:07
The Romans are pretty old too, I would say. I don't really think there is any older empire than the Greek and Roman Empire. There's the Ottoman, but that's further east.

Minoan is the oldest Greek "civilisation" and is also called the "cradle" of civilisation, and this started on the Greek island of Crete, so that would be my general answer...

The Romans are quite recent in terms of the beginning of culture, the Etruscans were around before the Roman Empire in Italy, and so were the Celts and the Vikings in Northern Europe

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 13:10
But their history differs a lot.
The Roman empire started around 800-700 bc, whilst the greek already excisted way before that.
Edit: there seems to be various studies, but we were thought that it started around 700BC. Cannot remember the actual year.

scoopy_loopy
14-10-09, 13:13
I have to agree with Mixu, the Greeks/Minoans and Egpytians had all (practically) reached their pinacles before the Romans ever became something truly "Civilised"

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:17
I have to agree with Mixu, the Greeks/Minoans and Egpytians had all (practically) reached their pinacles before the Romans ever became something truly "Civilised"

Ah, Egyptians weren't European though... ;)

Still in the grand scope of things, you are right, there was plenty of civilised parties around Europe before the Romans took over, they just universalised their culture more than most who kept within their borders!

scoopy_loopy
14-10-09, 13:21
I used Egyptians as an example because I was agreeing with the fact that the Romans were young compared to other civilisations around. The Romans certainly spread their culture around more (Although I do wish more of Britians Druidic past had survived. Maybe thats just the Welshman in me)

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:23
I used Egyptians as an example because I was agreeing with the fact that the Romans were young compared to other civilisations around. The Romans certainly spread their culture around more (Although I do wish more of Britians Druidic past had survived. Maybe thats just the Welshman in me)

That would be really good... would mean a lot more for me to dig up and study for one thing; so many people find British history boring! :(

scoopy_loopy
14-10-09, 13:23
Boring! How dare they! Id love to learn more about Britton's Natives!

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:25
Britain and native are two words that really do not go together in archaeology lol! ;)

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 13:25
I don't think the British history is boring at all. I'd actually love to just hop on a boat and get there and start exploring all the ruins, castles and country side. :D

Egyptians were civilized, but the two river land, mesopotania was the first true civilization though, no?

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:28
I don't think the British history is boring at all. I'd actually love to just hop on a boat and get there and start exploring all the ruins, castles and country side. :D

Egyptians were civilized, but the two river land, mesopotania was the first true civilization though, no?

If we were talking universally then yes... mesopotamians invented writing and (I think) government ... such a shame it's all buried in places we can't touch or are being destroyed by war! :(

Zebra
14-10-09, 13:29
I don't think the British history is boring at all. I'd actually love to just hop on a boat and get there and start exploring all the ruins, castles and country side. :D

Egyptians were civilized, but the two river land, mesopotania was the first true civilization though, no?

I think it all happened at around the same time. But I do think the Mesopotamians were a little bit earlier than the Egyptians. They definitely were the first ones to invent a proper writing system.

EDIT: Haha. Another Lara beat me to it :p.

scoopy_loopy
14-10-09, 13:29
I think the Egyptians would give the Mesopotamians a run for their money. Especially if you start looking at pre-history/archaic egpytian history.

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:43
I think the Egyptians would give the Mesopotamians a run for their money. Especially if you start looking at pre-history/archaic egpytian history.

I studied the Mesopotamians at Uni, and I thought the same as you before then... believe me the Egyptians couldn't! ;)

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 13:46
If we were talking universally then yes... mesopotamians invented writing and (I think) government ... such a shame it's all buried in places we can't touch or are being destroyed by war! :(
Thought I remembered them inventing writing, whilst Egyptians were still drawing pictures. What exactly happened to mesopotamia anyway? I do know that it can be considered as a cradle of civilization, farming and perhaps even the garden of eden and where the great flood happened. Been watching way too much discovery/national geography lately, yet I cannot really remember the fate of mesopotamians.

Zebra
14-10-09, 13:47
I studied the Mesopotamians at Uni, and I thought the same as you before then... believe me the Egyptians couldn't! ;)

I guess there are some things where the Egyptians were better and some things where the Mesopotamians were better. I wouldn't just say one civilisation is better than the other one (I guess I'll always prefer Egypt over anything else simply because I spent a big part of my childhood being interested in Egypt and only Egypt :p).

Thought I remembered them inventing writing, whilst Egyptians were still drawing pictures. What exactly happened to mesopotamia anyway? I do know that it can be considered as a cradle of civilization, farming and perhaps even the garden of eden and where the great flood happened.

I recently saw a report about the great flood. And all the scenarios they were talking about were way before the Mesopotamians started their civilisation, I think.

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:50
I guess there are some things where the Egyptians were better and some things where the Mesopotamians were better. I wouldn't just say one civilisation is better than the other one (I guess I'll always prefer Egypt over anything else simply because I spent a big part of my childhood being interested in Egypt and only Egypt :p).

I was exactly the same and originally applied to study Egyptian archaeology at Uni, but the course filled up really quick so I did general archaeology instead.. really opened my eyes to the rest of the world's history and I'm glad I didn't stick to one specific thing

Another Lara
14-10-09, 13:53
Thought I remembered them inventing writing, whilst Egyptians were still drawing pictures. What exactly happened to mesopotamia anyway? I do know that it can be considered as a cradle of civilization, farming and perhaps even the garden of eden and where the great flood happened. Been watching way too much discovery/national geography lately, yet I cannot really remember the fate of mesopotamians.

I did study this but I cannot for the life of me remember! Would have to look up my notes and tell you lol! ;)

Think it was basically too much infighting and take overs by other civilisations that they just fizzled out and their buildings got covered over time by sand...

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 13:55
^ AH, I remember something of fighting with different civilisations.

I recently saw a report about the great flood. And all the scenarios they were talking about were way before the Mesopotamians started their civilisation, I think.Garden of eden is where farming started and where man took a bite of the apple of knowledge (farming, civilization) and was destroyed by a sudden flood. I faintly remember it being somewhere the the rivers met.

As for the great flood, that was before the proper culture of mesopotamians started. But that doesn't count that there wouldn't have been people living there before that.

But again, what happened? Did they just fade? Destroyed by war?

Another Lara
14-10-09, 14:06
But again, what happened? Did they just fade? Destroyed by war?

I cheated and looked it up... it basically was war: first the Persians and then the Persian empire was brought down by Alexander the Great

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 14:08
Okay, thanks. I completely forgot about the Persian empire for some reason. :confused:

Zebra
14-10-09, 14:09
^ AH, I remember something of fighting with different civilisations.Garden of eden is where farming started and where man took a bite of the apple of knowledge (farming, civilization) and was destroyed by a sudden flood. I faintly remember it being somewhere the the rivers met.

As for the great flood, that was before the proper culture of mesopotamians started. But that doesn't count that there wouldn't have been people living there before that.

But again, what happened? Did they just fade? Destroyed by war?

Ah. Okay. I thought you were talking about the great flood with Noah's ark.

MiCkiZ88
14-10-09, 14:13
Ah. Okay. I thought you were talking about the great flood with Noah's ark.
The great flood before the major civilisation could've been the flood that is written in the bible, after all some of the stories are true and good for those who study history. The old testament is rather entertaining as well.. so much violence and cruelty.

Encore
14-10-09, 15:47
The concept of nation as we understand it today was a creation of the XIXth century. It was only then that it was understood as a combination of a territory's political regime, people and culture. And an identity of course. In that sense I think the first country to see itself in such terms was France after the Revolution.

Apofiss
14-10-09, 16:05
The concept of nation as we understand it today was a creation of the XIXth century. It was only then that it was understood as a combination of a territory's political regime, people and culture. And an identity of course. In that sense I think the first country to see itself in such terms was France after the Revolution.

English/French/Italian/(even Russian, our neighbours) culture/language/nation is a rather new one, just like many more within Europe... by the side of Chinese/Egyptian/etc and ONE more as ancient we are trying to guess here; also language sync from THEIR language in most European nations is known even till today.

We are talking about like even 50,000 years ago. (THEY came from Asia/Australia and came into E.Europe about 40,000 years ago)

Another Lara
14-10-09, 21:07
The great flood before the major civilisation could've been the flood that is written in the bible, after all some of the stories are true and good for those who study history. The old testament is rather entertaining as well.. so much violence and cruelty.

That is why I would have loved to have taken a course in Biblical Archaeology, just to see how much fact could be found in the stories from the old testament... Think Mesopotamian archaeology is the closest most people get though lol! :)

jackles
14-10-09, 21:15
Etruscans? (they predated the Romans..) Minoans? Pelagasian? There are more but I can't recall. Egypt is not European so it has to be one of the early forms of Indo-European. Cant count the Hittites or Sumerians for the same reason..not Europe.

Encore
14-10-09, 21:23
English/French/Italian/(even Russian, our neighbours) culture/language/nation is a rather new one, just like many more within Europe... by the side of Chinese/Egyptian/etc and ONE more as ancient we are trying to guess here; also language sync from THEIR language in most European nations is known even till today.

We are talking about like even 50,000 years ago. (THEY came from Asia/Australia and came into E.Europe about 40,000 years ago)

I was just interpreting your original post. You should not have used the word nationality because that concept didn't exist in ancient times.

In that case I think the oldest actual civilization or culture in Europe was Phoenicia, they did not originate in Europe but they were the first to colonise it with what can be considered a proper cultural system.

If it's about the first culture born here, I'm sure it was Greece. Everything before them was basically tribal in form.

larafan25
14-10-09, 21:25
Ancient Japanese

Reggie
14-10-09, 22:47
^EUROPEAN.

Is there a definitive answer to this question anyway?

Encore
14-10-09, 22:49
It's easy, to confirm my post I tried Wikipedia.
Read about the History of Europe. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe

thecentaur
14-10-09, 23:04
We weren't really taught what it was; we sort of started during the age of the Ancient Greeks last year. This year, we started on the Renaissance.

Romantics Inc.
14-10-09, 23:10
Nationality??

...NOT Rome for sure...

hmmm...I would have to say Greece...I dont really know XD

Apofiss
15-10-09, 11:21
I was just interpreting your original post. You should not have used the word nationality because that concept didn't exist in ancient times.

In that case I think the oldest actual civilization or culture in Europe was Phoenicia, they did not originate in Europe but they were the first to colonise it with what can be considered a proper cultural system.

If it's about the first culture born here, I'm sure it was Greece. Everything before them was basically tribal in form.

You have some points there, my bad; I took a view from a present perspective, from nowdays till back then (50k years ago). Using a word nationality is more correct when used closer to nowdays, yes. Back then - tribes/etc.

And back to the point. The Balts (Baltic people) or generally called (in a period of 50k years) proto-balts (the early common ancestor of the various Baltic languages, both living and dead, is traditionally referred to as Proto-Baltic). As for the ancient names also known as [I]kūri, sēļi, variņi, heti, umbri and pelasgi. There is written a lot about Kūri (and Kūri's 'country' with its prince Rāma [Rama])in Greek tidings and Indian myths.

Later around 500 B.C. they are generally known as budinu, neruvju, sēļu, kūru, variņu, heruļu, zemnonu, rugiešu, jātvingu and galindu - Baltic nationals.

The closer to middle Ages the more forked Baltic nationals became, also more solid populated territories comes in place.

P.S. these facts are not conducted by me, but by objective historians around the globe.

Cochrane
15-10-09, 11:47
You have some points there, my bad; I took a view from a present perspective, from nowdays till back then (50k years ago). Using a word nationality is more correct when used closer to nowdays, yes. Back then - tribes/etc.

And back to the point. The Balts (Baltic people) or generally called (in a period of 50k years) proto-balts (the early common ancestor of the various Baltic languages, both living and dead, is traditionally referred to as Proto-Baltic). As for the ancient names also known as [I]kūri, sēļi, variņi, heti, umbri and pelasgi. There is written a lot about Kūri (and Kūri's 'country' with its prince Rāma [Rama])in Greek tidings and Indian myths.

Later around 500 B.C. they are generally known as budinu, neruvju, sēļu, kūru, variņu, heruļu, zemnonu, rugiešu, jātvingu and galindu - Baltic nationals.

The closer to middle Ages the more forked Baltic nationals became, also more solid populated territories comes in place.

P.S. these facts are not conducted by me, but by objective historians around the globe.

I do have to say, I wouldn't have expected them. Where did they originally come from? The baltic area seems the obvious answer, but there have been various colonialization attempts in the area dating back to the 12th century, so I wouldn't be surprised if there have been some large migrations in their history.

Apofiss
15-10-09, 12:16
I do have to say, I wouldn't have expected them. Where did they originally come from? The baltic area seems the obvious answer, but there have been various colonialization attempts in the area dating back to the 12th century, so I wouldn't be surprised if there have been some large migrations in their history.

Well, as I said before, originally they came from (50,000 years ago) Australia/E.Asia and came into E.Europe about 40,000 years ago. 20,000 years ago they already inhabited W.Europe.

Also an independednt historian (Oļģerts Ziļickis) Olgert Zilicki summerized lots of factual archeological/anthropological findings which states that Proto-Balts's (or known as Kromaņona people) remains were found in many places in Africa, Asia, Europe and even America.

There is also a book "History of Balsts" by Andrejs Kavačs. Lots of objective/factual stuff there.