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lita212
23-11-09, 05:48
Plastic chemicals 'feminise boys'

Chemicals in plastics alter the brains of baby boys, making them "more feminine", say US researchers.

Males exposed to high doses in the womb went on to be less likely to play with boys' toys like cars or to join in rough and tumble games, they found.

The University of Rochester team's latest work adds to concerns about the safety of phthalates, found in vinyl flooring and PVC shower curtains.

The findings are reported in the International Journal of Andrology.

Plastic furniture

Phthalates have the ability to disrupt hormones, and have been banned in toys in the EU for some years.

However, they are still widely used in many different household items, including plastic furniture and packaging.

There are many different types and some mimic the female hormone oestrogen.

Now they say certain phthalates also impact on the developing brain, by knocking out the action of the male hormone testosterone.

Dr Shanna Swan and her team tested urine samples from mothers over midway through pregnancy for traces of phthalates.

The women, who gave birth to 74 boys and 71 girls, were followed up when their children were aged four to seven and asked about the toys the youngsters played with and the games they enjoyed.

Girls' play

They found that two phthalates DEHP and DBP can affect play behaviour.

Boys exposed to high levels of these in the womb were less likely than other boys to play with cars, trains and guns or engage in "rougher" games like playfighting.

PHTHALATES
There are many different types and the most commonly used are deemed entirely safe by regulators
DEHP - used to make PVC soft and pliable and used in products like flooring
DBP - used as a plasticiser in glues, dyes and textiles

Elizabeth Salter-Green, director of the chemicals campaign group CHEM Trust, said the results were worrying.

"We now know that phthalates, to which we are all constantly exposed, are extremely worrying from a health perspective, leading to disruption of male reproduction health and, it appears, male behaviour too.

"This feminising capacity of phthalates makes them true 'gender benders'."

She acknowledged that the boys who have been studied were still young, but she said reduced masculine play at this age might lead to other feminised developments in later life.

But Tim Edgar, of the European Council for Plasticisers and Intermediates, said: "We need to get some scientific experts to look at this study in more detail before we can make a proper judgement."

He said there were many different phthalates in use and the study concerned two of the less commonly used types that were on the EU candidate list as potentially hazardous and needing authorisation for use.

DBP has been banned from use in cosmetics, such as nail varnish, since 2005 in the EU.

The British Plastics Federation said: "Chemical safety is of paramount importance to the plastics industry which has invested heavily in researching the substances it uses.

"Moreover, the new European Chemical Regulation, REACH, will ensure further rigorous evaluation and testing or chemical substances and their uses."

voltz
23-11-09, 05:54
No wonder one of my cousins played with dolls.

Aranara
23-11-09, 06:22
No wonder one of my cousins played with dolls.

:vlol:
Thank God I don't have cousins.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 07:39
I think that its to do with what behaviour you're exposed to which determines what you enjoy doing, not bloody chemicals.

Children see, and they copy. So if a boy is around lots of girls, no, he isn't likely to want to play with cars. Same happened with me. Playing rough and tumble, and with typical male toys is not the instinct of a young boy. Its just a stereotype that is enforced on young boys. If that stereotype isn't enforced then they most likely won't find an interest in it.

So basically my stance is: Young boys are effected by what behaviour they're exposed to and what sorts of behaviour are enforced as ideal, not plastic chemicals.

I am a really feminine boy, so I guess I am the result of these chemicals. Oh well, it hasn't done me any harm so far! :)

Another thing that strikes me as odd in regards to this research: There are lots of girls that like doing typical boy stuff, for example tom boys. So what does that mean? Does that mean girls are being effected by some sort of chemical too? One which makes them behave more masculine?

Its a bit sad really, is like they're trying to indirectly say that theres something wrong with feminine guys like me, and that something needs to be 'done' about it.

Punaxe
23-11-09, 09:36
I think that its to do with what behaviour you're exposed to which determines what you enjoy doing, not bloody chemicals.

Children see, and they copy. So if a boy is around lots of girls, no, he isn't likely to want to play with cars. Same happened with me. Playing rough and tumble, and with typical male toys is not the instinct of a young boy. Its just a stereotype that is enforced on young boys. If that stereotype isn't enforced then they most likely won't find an interest in it.

So basically my stance is: Young boys are effected by what behaviour they're exposed to and what sorts of behaviour are enforced as ideal, not plastic chemicals.

I am a really feminine boy, so I guess I am the result of these chemicals. Oh well, it hasn't done me any harm so far! :)

Another thing that strikes me as odd in regards to this research: There are lots of girls that like doing typical boy stuff, for example tom boys. So what does that mean? Does that mean girls are being effected by some sort of chemical too? One which makes them behave more masculine?

Its a bit sad really, is like they're trying to indirectly say that theres something wrong with feminine guys like me, and that something needs to be 'done' about it.

I believe it has been known for some time that exposure to oestrogen of developing babies (inside the womb) indeed has a 'feminising' effect. That doesn't mean it's the sole explanation of any kind of behaviour, of course.

Forwen
23-11-09, 09:47
Another thing that strikes me as odd in regards to this research: There are lots of girls that like doing typical boy stuff, for example tom boys. So what does that mean? Does that mean girls are being effected by some sort of chemical too? One which makes them behave more masculine?

Yeah, excess testosterone exposure in the womb.

Psychos'Я'Us
23-11-09, 10:35
Lmao! How awesome! :D

Lara Croft!
23-11-09, 10:59
I have heard about that before in a documentary. How chemicals from plastic feminise nature. It's pretty scary actually how a material we created potentially changes our DNA...

igonge
23-11-09, 11:13
Sounds strange lol.

Draco
23-11-09, 12:18
Chemicals either affect behaviour or they don't. Depression 'sufferers' insist that it is a chemical imbalance for example.

Dennis's Mom
23-11-09, 12:19
Anyone else find their definitions of what boys should be doing a little . . . sexist? Why do I get the feeling some religious right "cure homosexuality" group paid for this study? "It's not your fault!"

Saphyre
23-11-09, 12:21
Anyone else find their definitions of what boys should be doing a little . . . sexist? Why do I get the feeling some religious right "cure homosexuality" group paid for this study? "It's not your fault!"

:tmb: Call me a cynic but this is the nagging feeling I'm getting. Its like saying gay men & open feminine guys such as myself have something wrong with them and they are how they are because they were deformed by some evil chemicals.

MiCkiZ88
23-11-09, 12:36
Lol... I barely played with toys myself. I spend a good time outside doing sports, group games and whatever activities and I still am atracted to the same gender. Also get the same nagging feeling about the study, but I guess people are getting worried that there will be no males left to seed.. like this planet isn't over populated anyways.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 12:39
Lol... I barely played with toys myself. I spend a good time outside doing sports, group games and whatever activities and I still am atracted to the same gender. Also get the same nagging feeling about the study, but I guess people are getting worried that there will be no males left to seed.. like this planet isn't over populated anyways.

Why though, its not like a guy who acts like a girl is unable to make sperm and children? Unless you mean they're scared there'll be no straight guys left to reproduce.

MiCkiZ88
23-11-09, 12:47
Why though, its not like a guy who acts like a girl is unable to make sperm and children? Unless you mean they're scared there'll be no straight guys left to reproduce because of the obvious unattraction to females haha.that :p And it's not the first time I've got the feeling. Some of the people from my old school (small town) were against homosexuality because women wont have any men left. Wauw.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 12:49
that :p And it's not the first time I've got the feeling. Some of the people from my old school (small town) were against homosexuality because women wont have any men left. Wauw.

Oh please, its only a small amount of the male population that are gay, theres nothing to worry about. Though I'd say open homosexuality is growing as it becomes more acceptable.

MiCkiZ88
23-11-09, 12:52
Oh please, its only a small amount of the male population that are gay, theres nothing to worry about. Though I'd say homosexuality is growing as it becomes more acceptable.That's the thing people are afraid. That it will be more accepted. The minority will still most likely be an minority, just i'd like to quote me old best friend: ''If all gay people were to turn purple in the church, you'd be surprised who is sitting next to you.''

Encore
23-11-09, 12:56
Oh please, its only a small amount of the male population that are gay, theres nothing to worry about. Though I'd say open homosexuality is growing as it becomes more acceptable.

The last 3 guys I met (in diferent places) were all gay. I was actually quite attracted to the first one and it was a major disapointment. :p If they're a minority I must be really unlucky...

Saphyre
23-11-09, 13:15
My step dads friend (who is gay) was stood in a pub and he looked at the men with their wives and he said "you'd be surprised how many of these guys are actually gay" I don't know how he knew but its something to do with mannerisms and body language. I'm a bit sceptical.

Dennis's Mom
23-11-09, 13:21
^^That's part of the problem though. In the large scheme of things, it's none of my business who sleeps with who, so I sort of resent this idea that it's somehow something I should know and "be surprised" at.

Of course, I'm old-fashioned and think sex is waaaaay too over-exposed in American culture as it is. It's simply not the be all and end all of everything, and it's a mistake to treat it that way IMO. *long suffering sigh*

Saphyre
23-11-09, 13:29
^^That's part of the problem though. In the large scheme of things, it's none of my business who sleeps with who, so I sort of resent this idea that it's somehow something I should know and "be surprised" at.

Of course, I'm old-fashioned and think sex is waaaaay too over-exposed in American culture as it is. It's simply not the be all and end all of everything, and it's a mistake to treat it that way IMO. *long suffering sigh*

Yeah, sex should be private but thats too much to ask in modern society.

Catapharact
23-11-09, 13:30
^^That's part of the problem though. In the large scheme of things, it's none of my business who sleeps with who, so I sort of resent this idea that it's somehow something I should know and "be surprised" at.

My thoughts exactly. Don't you hate it when some gimped up gossiper comes running up to you with a "juicy" tidbit when you couldn't care less...

Sgt BOMBULOUS
23-11-09, 14:02
Anyone else find their definitions of what boys should be doing a little . . . sexist? Why do I get the feeling some religious right "cure homosexuality" group paid for this study? "It's not your fault!"

I sort of doubt it since there are also studies regarding how BPA effects obesity (In general, studies into how polymers and thier respective monomers effect humans) - Pretty sure the catholic church doesn't have it out for fat kids.

trXD
23-11-09, 14:16
Kind of depressing to know people can be altered by stuff like that...

Dennis's Mom
23-11-09, 14:23
I sort of doubt it since there are also studies regarding how BPA effects obesity (In general, studies into how polymers and thier respective monomers effect humans) - Pretty sure the catholic church doesn't have it out for fat kids.

I certainly hope so, but somehow I think this data will be used in a less than ethical manner.

"Don't use a plastic shower curtain or your kid will turn gay!"--that sort of thing.

Ora Dagger
23-11-09, 14:31
I'm feminine also...but I don't think its from plastic:vlol:


Anyone else find their definitions of what boys should be doing a little . . . sexist? Why do I get the feeling some religious right "cure homosexuality" group paid for this study? "It's not your fault!"

My thoughts exactly!:tmb:

aurora89
23-11-09, 14:32
gender identity (and everything related to it) is an entirely different matter than sexual orientation. This study has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. I've been studying these experiments all semester and one of the main things my professor has been hammering into our brains is that changing the components related to gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I'm a relatively feminine woman (granted, I like rock climbing and hiking and video games, but I'm fully a girl and happy with that) and I like women way more than men. I know plenty of people who are extremely not masculine/feminine and still attracted to the opposite gender. Apples and oranges, people.

iamlaracroft
23-11-09, 14:35
gender identity (and everything related to it) is an entirely different matter than sexual orientation. This study has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. I've been studying these experiments all semester and one of the main things my professor has been hammering into our brains is that changing the components related to gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I'm a relatively feminine woman (granted, I like rock climbing and hiking and video games, but I'm fully a girl and happy with that) and I like women way more than men. I know plenty of people who are extremely not masculine/feminine and still attracted to the opposite gender. Apples and oranges, people.

:tmb:

Mokono
23-11-09, 14:41
Anyone else find their definitions of what boys should be doing a little . . . sexist? Why do I get the feeling some religious right "cure homosexuality" group paid for this study? "It's not your fault!"

I get your point, and i even agree, but mentioning homosexuality would drag (as many times in the past) more than enough drama. Feminine behaviour is not strictly linked to homosexuality, since most children are relatively free to develop their personalities regardless their sexual orientation. But i do get your point nonetheless (i just wanted to make this clear for everyone else in order to prevent the drama). There's still the biased conception that homosexuality is a disease that has it's roots in something "fixable", let's say, chemical stimuli that can be counteracted developing pills and drugs (wich is ignorance well camouflaged). I also agree that there's a sexist prejudice regarding wich toys should children play with in order to be considered socially "normal" individuals (the validity of social impositions are always debatable); however, i'm convinced that not every single boy who decides he wants a dollhouse for Christmas was under the influence of any chemical substance; in fact, i know few architects who started prefering dollhouses instead of cars. As a side note also: Everyone knows that certain substances may influence behaviour in human beings; however, the case described in the article is controversial enough to keep most people distracted for a while from real deleterious toxines that kill us every day, wich is (in my oppinion) worse that being under the effect of those plastics.

Tear
23-11-09, 14:45
Alright.. I don't even know what to say.:p

Sgt BOMBULOUS
23-11-09, 15:16
I.V. bags are made from PVC, so don't get sick either :ton:

Phys
23-11-09, 15:51
Wow... so playing with toys makes you gay now? :rolleyes:

Chocola teapot
23-11-09, 16:18
Lmao!! XD

A bit silly to be honest.

Changeling
23-11-09, 16:30
Any excuse it seems.

Mad Tony
23-11-09, 16:45
Wow... so playing with toys makes you gay now? :rolleyes:Homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the article!

Are people actually reading the article this thread is about or just assuming the article is about how plastic chemical makes boys gay, even though the topic title clearly states otherwise.

Catapharact
23-11-09, 16:53
I see so much irony in that really. Its a common action on this forum to condemn others of being narrow minded and yet at the same time, people automatically assume that homosexuality and "fem boys" are one and the same thing.

Thank God my Gay friend doesn't visits this forum. He would have been disappointed in this display of bewildered ignorance.

TRhalloween
23-11-09, 16:54
It said "feminine", not "gay".

Saphyre
23-11-09, 17:11
Even though I was discussing the homosexual aspects of this discussion, I'm not quite sure myself where it came from. I know some lads at my school that are really feminine down to the point they enjoy putting on makeup etc. but they have girlfriends so yeah, femininity and homosexuality ARE different things.

Phys
23-11-09, 17:17
Homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the article!

Are people actually reading the article this thread is about or just assuming the article is about how plastic chemical makes boys gay, even though the topic title clearly states otherwise.

Homosexuality had already become part of the discussion.

Reggie
23-11-09, 17:17
Gender identity and sexual identity are two different things. This article is focussing on Gender identity and how chemicals apparantly have an affect on that. I don't really know much about the effects chemicals have on a human's hormonal balance but what I do think is that this particular article is not prejudiced against those men who are not traditionally 'masculine'. The negative tone of the article is aimed towards the irresponsible use of chemicals in plastics and how, regardless of what hormones they are affecting, they shouldn't be messing around with our own systems like that without us knowing. That's the message I get from this article.

Lara's home
23-11-09, 17:18
Well. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. At least to some degree.

Thank God my Gay friend doesn't visits this forum. He would have been disappointed in this display of bewildered ignorance.

What does it matter if he is gay or not? Anyone with a brain would be dissapointed.
But this forum seems to love discussing gays, so it can't be helped I guess. :p

tomblover
23-11-09, 17:21
However does it matter if the boys play with other toys than guns, cars and whatever and aren't like bringing down the house? I'd be gladly buying any sons I might have Barbies and stuff, in exchange for them not tearing down the house. :vlol:

Reggie
23-11-09, 17:22
What does it matter if he is gay or not? Anyone with a brain would be dissapointed.
But this forum seems to love discussing gays, so it can't be helped I guess. :p
Good point. :tmb::

Lavinder
23-11-09, 17:24
Do you guys actually realise that not all gay guys are 'camp' - being gay is just your sexuality, it does not alter your masculinity.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 17:27
Do you guys actually realise that not all gay guys are 'camp' - being gay is just your sexuality, it does not alter your masculinity.

Exactly, I'm gay but I'm not camp either. I think I fool a lot of people sometimes, they are dead certain i'm straight. Some people though spot it straight away and these people are usually gay themselves. I usually wear t-shirt, tracksuit bottoms, none of the typical "camp" stuff. But what does this bring to the discussion anyway, bleh.

moodydog
23-11-09, 17:38
Do you guys actually realise that not all gay guys are 'camp' - being gay is just your sexuality, it does not alter your masculinity.

but are all camp guys gay? that is the question :p

also, is it just me or is the thread kinda amuzing...
'plastics make boys play less toys' :vlol:

also i once took a brain test (high detail scientific) to see how masculin/femanine i was. turns out 50/50 :p
thinkin bout it, i love things like sports, comp tech, gaming, but also love art,
but i am not really a 'pink guy'

Saphyre
23-11-09, 17:41
'plastics make boys play less toys' :vlol:

When you put it that way... it does sound a bit silly.

iamlaracroft
23-11-09, 17:51
Even though I was discussing the homosexual aspects of this discussion, I'm not quite sure myself where it came from. I know some lads at my school that are really feminine down to the point they enjoy putting on makeup etc. but they have girlfriends so yeah, femininity and homosexuality ARE different things.


make up? like what kind of make up? eyeliner? powder? :confused:

Saphyre
23-11-09, 17:53
make up? like what kind of make up? eyeliner? powder? :confused:

Eyeliner and eye shadow, also nail varnish if that counts. It can be quite masculine I think sometimes. I might try some "guy-liner" one time. :)

moodydog
23-11-09, 17:56
Even though I was discussing the homosexual aspects of this discussion, I'm not quite sure myself where it came from. I know some lads at my school that are really feminine down to the point they enjoy putting on makeup etc. but they have girlfriends so yeah, femininity and homosexuality ARE different things.

yeh theyre called emo's (theyre not femanine) :p

iamlaracroft
23-11-09, 17:59
ah. okay. those are different from , like, powder and crap like that. I mean, if they're whipping out eyelash curlers and lipstick...that's another story. but to each his own. i certainly don't judge.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 18:00
yeh theyre called emo's (theyre not femanine) :p

No but these guys weren't 'emo.' They didn't necessarily wear black makeup, think pinks, greens and blues. They also weren't into what people would call "emo music" and rather, mainstream pop music and rnb.

But all thats just stereotyping isn't it?

Mad Tony
23-11-09, 18:18
Homosexuality had already become part of the discussion.It looked like you were responding to the opening post.

tampi
23-11-09, 18:24
Only a datum:

Several articles published by universities in various parts of the world, recenty corroborating information regarding sex change in fish and shellfish due to contamination of rivers.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 18:33
Only a datum:

Several articles published by universities in various parts of the world, recenty corroborating information regarding sex change in fish and shellfish due to contamination of rivers.

It could be a similar thing yeah, but obviously it doesn't have a full sex change effect on humans! The only known effects are just the stuff thats highlighted in the original post, and not even that is confirmed yet.

Honestly though, whats the fuss about? All it means that in the future there might be more young boys who don't want to do typical male activities.

jackles
23-11-09, 18:39
I think there are concerns over the amount of female hormones in the water system. Just think of the amount passed out each day..how much is effectively filtered out and how much sneaks back in the water system?

tampi
23-11-09, 18:42
It could be a similar thing yeah, but obviously it doesn't have a full sex change effect on humans! The only known effects are just the stuff thats highlighted in the original post, and not even that is confirmed yet.

Honestly though, whats the fuss about? All it means that in the future there might be more young boys who don't want to do typical male activities.

I dunno, it seems every time we have less hair too. In a hundred years, all bald!:cln::D

I think there are concerns over the amount of female hormones in the water system. Just think of the amount passed out each day..how much is effectively filtered out and how much sneaks back in the water system?

lol Jackles. I remember an old spanish song about "yellow water" :o:p

Dennis's Mom
23-11-09, 18:43
Homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the article!

Are people actually reading the article this thread is about or just assuming the article is about how plastic chemical makes boys gay, even though the topic title clearly states otherwise.

I actually read the article. My first thought was how this data would be interpreted by those who hold homosexuality as "unnatural," "a choice" and "something to be cured." For these people, being effeminate equals being homosexual.

jackles
23-11-09, 18:44
*grins at Tampi*








There is also the issue of infertiltity due to chemicals.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 18:46
*grins at Tampi*








There is also the issue of infertiltity due to chemicals.

yeah and I also read increased risk of testicular cancer. The world really isn't safe for men anymore is it? LOL j/k

I think there is truth to this, but its probably on a much lesser scale than you may think. Still, it makes news and sells papers.

jackles
23-11-09, 18:48
Fertility timebomb (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-105466/Fertility-timebomb-drinking-water.html)



similar article! (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/feb/08021805.html)

Saphyre
23-11-09, 18:55
Fertility timebomb (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-105466/Fertility-timebomb-drinking-water.html)



similar article! (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/feb/08021805.html)

Yeah thats what I was thinking about. But this's fish we're talking about not humans.

jackles
23-11-09, 19:00
In the second article they are linking it to early puberty in girls. (personally I think that is down to better nutrition- linked to body weight)


If I could find an article linking people to it I would post it!
:D



Damn...still based around fish! I could find an article from the vatican but possibly that is not going to be an unbiased account and I want something based on pure science.

Saphyre
23-11-09, 19:02
Theres so much stuff being flown around about these chemicals and related issues its hard to know what to believe. I usually take things with a grain of salt.

Forwen
23-11-09, 19:19
I see so much irony in that really. Its a common action on this forum to condemn others of being narrow minded and yet at the same time, people automatically assume that homosexuality and "fem boys" are one and the same thing.

I know right? This whole thread is a one big knee-jerk reaction.

I actually read the article. My first thought was how this data would be interpreted by those who hold homosexuality as "unnatural," "a choice" and "something to be cured." For these people, being effeminate equals being homosexual.

I for one consider the need to shoot down scientific research for fear of how it might be received a very dangerous practice. Not attributing this to you, but that's the general trend I picked up from this thread.

Chocola teapot
23-11-09, 20:17
I wouldn't be suprised if we start getting reports of plastic induced cancer!

Everything harms you these days.

larafan25
23-11-09, 20:20
This is why I am gay?:)

Chocola teapot
23-11-09, 20:20
Probably not.

Mad Tony
23-11-09, 20:52
This is why I am gay?:)The article in question makes absolutely no reference to sexuality. :)

trXD
23-11-09, 20:58
The article in question makes absolutely no reference to sexuality. :)
The same type of science as this article has supposedly found that the more chemicaly feminine you are the more likely you are to be homosexual (for boys).

Mad Tony
23-11-09, 21:01
The same type of science as this article has supposedly found that the more chemicaly feminine you are the more likely you are to be homosexual (for boys).So?

This article is all about how certain chemicals can affect how effeminate a boy is. Sexuality is completely irrelevant to this topic.

trXD
23-11-09, 21:09
So?

This article is all about how certain chemicals can affect how effeminate a boy is. Sexuality is completely irrelevant to this topic.
Your right, but people who beleive this article would probably beleive that feminity turns people gay aswell. I honestly dont know so im not going to pretend too, but even if both of these articles are true which they could well be, i dont think its degrading or anything.

aurora89
23-11-09, 21:12
The same type of science as this article has supposedly found that the more chemicaly feminine you are the more likely you are to be homosexual (for boys).

citation needed.

Reggie
23-11-09, 21:19
Your right, but people who beleive this article would probably beleive that feminity turns people gay aswell. I honestly dont know so im not going to pretend too, but even if both of these articles are true which they could well be, i dont think its degrading or anything.
Then that's unsound logic. People believing something to be true is different from something actually being true. JTB... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justified_true_belief)

takamotosan
23-11-09, 21:20
This "experiment" is incredibly subjective, biased, and sexist.
I can hardly take it seriously when the results are as vague and slightly offensive as "less masculine."

:pi:

TRfan23
23-11-09, 21:22
Well I chew my pen which is made from plastic in class (Since I was very young anyways), my effeminacy hasn't increased lol. My god me really effeminate, I'll probs be puring over guys like a cat, and licking their cheeks like one. Who knows?

Besides if you think about it, us guys have not two Y sex chromosomes, (whatever human that'd create, though it's impossible). But have one Y & one X so in a way we're all gonna be effeminate. Just limited due to our testosterone levels.

trXD
23-11-09, 21:36
Then that's unsound logic. People believing something to be true is different from something actually being true. JTB... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justified_true_belief)
Of course it is, i get that people have different opinions and nobody can say "this is definetley true". Sorry, did i miss your point or what?

@aurora, you could just look it up yourself. I thought everyone knew about this scientific concept.

Reggie
23-11-09, 21:48
@TrXD: Let's recap...

The article in question makes absolutely no reference to sexuality. :)
So we start with Ben's statement about the article, one which I think is correct...then you reply by saying:

The same type of science as this article has supposedly found that the more chemicaly feminine you are the more likely you are to be homosexual (for boys).
So you make a statement that 'this type of science' apparantly equates gender with sexuality in an attempt to argue against Ben's statement...

So?

This article is all about how certain chemicals can affect how effeminate a boy is. Sexuality is completely irrelevant to this topic.
Then Ben rightly argues again that sexuality is irrelevent. Again because sexuality does not equal gender identity (masculinity/femininity)...

Your right, but people who beleive this article would probably beleive that feminity turns people gay aswell. I honestly dont know so im not going to pretend too, but even if both of these articles are true which they could well be, i dont think its degrading or anything.
So then you admit he was right all along and then you argue that people believe that gender identity does correspond with sexuality. The second bit I understand, that's your point of view on it. My statement about unsound logic was aimed at the fact people believe that one equals the other which makes the article degrading. The comment about unsound logic wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the same people you referred to. So...

Of course it is, i get that people have different opinions and nobody can say "this is definetley true". Sorry, did i miss your point or what?
I think you did, that's if you thought I was disagreeing with you when really me you and Ben seem to be on the same wavelength on this.

trXD
23-11-09, 21:56
Oh right ok, i thought i had done another thing people could shout at my for on these forums lol

Yes i see what you mean, how it could be degrading. Im not gay so its hard to know if i have a pure opinion on it, it just doesnt seem that bad to me. But i can understand that if your gay then it probably feels like everyones telling you that your feminine which would suck. Theres nothing wrong with being feminine but after a while it would be like "hey... no im not".

Yeah i can definetley see what you mean.

Reggie
23-11-09, 22:04
I don't shout people down...usually. :pi: I just try to understand where people are coming from and giving my POV where I think it might be adding something. Still, I can't see how this would be offensive to gay people, anyone who understands that there's a distinction between sexual preference and who someone acts (masculine/feminine) would not get angered by the article. Arguably, the tone of the article is offensive those men who have feminine characteristics but it could be argued that the article is just attacking irresponsible manufacturers for possibly messing around with anyone's hormones in the first place. That's the argument that I see implicitly in this article.

aurora89
23-11-09, 22:40
@aurora, you could just look it up yourself. I thought everyone knew about this scientific concept.

Spoken like someone who has no scientific research to back up their position. :p Give me a specific article. You made the claim-- it's your job to back it up if you want people to believe you. *shrugs* Funnily enough, my university-level biopsychology course doesn't line up with what you're saying. Who am I going to believe-- a 50-something PhD who ran the studies or a 15yo putting me down with "I thought EVERYONE knew that!!11!"? Hm, hard choice there. :ton:

google scholar. It is your friend. Let the thread continue...

Uzi master
23-11-09, 22:43
I agree with regie, by the way you have 10k posts.

trXD
23-11-09, 22:56
Spoken like someone who has no scientific research to back up their position. :p Give me a specific article. You made the claim-- it's your job to back it up if you want people to believe you. *shrugs* Funnily enough, my university-level biopsychology course doesn't line up with what you're saying. Who am I going to believe-- a 50-something PhD who ran the studies or a 15yo putting me down with "I thought EVERYONE knew that!!11!"? Hm, hard choice there. :ton:

google scholar. It is your friend. Let the thread continue...

Why are you quoting me like im some sort of freak who speaks in capitals.

Honestly i dont know were to find that concept, but i did study it in school. Look i dont know anything other than the concept exists and it has backed up reasons, i dont even know what the reasons are, no need to be all diva with me. I wasnt even making a point i was just saying.

lita212
24-11-09, 00:25
i think the article i posted is interesting.
i didnt post it because i wanted people to think that there is a reason people are born trans. i posted it because i wanted to see people opinions on the subject. i only came across this because my boyfriend had seen it on the news and showed me it online and was joking by saying did your mum sit on plastic furniture when she was having you.

imo i think its just what scientists want us to think and that they are just as usual trying to put a fact at a subject that not even psychologists understand as to why people are born in the wrong body.

i dont take the article as a reason why i am the way i am infact i think the opposite. i think people are just born the way they are. it doesnt matter what toys you play with. infact the only reason we have toys is to learn when growing up.

AmericanAssassin
24-11-09, 01:14
^ I respect your beliefs. I too believe that people are born the way they are and that people are just searching for answers they'll never find.

Big Matt
24-11-09, 03:57
Some of my earliest memories are of me drinking out of plastic containers. I drink out of plastic every day and have for most of my life. There's nothing feminine about me. Growing up my two favorite toys were a plastic Beretta 92FS pistol and a plastic UZI (indeed shooting the the real versions I own now are one of my favorite pastimes). It kind of gives me doubts about plastics based gender resequencing. At the very least, I'm led to believe it doesn't affect everyone.

Dennis's Mom
24-11-09, 14:09
Some of my earliest memories are of me drinking out of plastic containers. I drink out of plastic every day and have for most of my life. There's nothing feminine about me. Growing up my two favorite toys were a plastic Beretta 92FS pistol and a plastic UZI (indeed shooting the the real versions I own now are one of my favorite pastimes). It kind of gives me doubts about plastics based gender resequencing. At the very least, I'm led to believe it doesn't affect everyone.

I agree. Considering how pervasive plastics have been for the last sixty or so years--the amount of time it takes to sire multiple generations--I can't say that I've seen any increase in "effeminate" boys or men.

Unless, of course, one wants to count the "feminizing of men" by the women's movement. Making men change diapers and help clean house and such. :p

TRhalloween
24-11-09, 14:41
I don't shout people down...usually. :pi: I just try to understand where people are coming from and giving my POV where I think it might be adding something. Still, I can't see how this would be offensive to gay people, anyone who understands that there's a distinction between sexual preference and who someone acts (masculine/feminine) would not get angered by the article. Arguably, the tone of the article is offensive those men who have feminine characteristics but it could be argued that the article is just attacking irresponsible manufacturers for possibly messing around with anyone's hormones in the first place. That's the argument that I see implicitly in this article.

I don't think the article is offensive, the way femininity suddenly becomes anonymous with homosexuality is more offensive.

pneboy
24-11-09, 14:44
i used to play with my cousins barbie dolls when i was little, allways undressing them
not much has changed now except now its real women, giggity