PDA

View Full Version : Return the Parthenon Marbles


Lara Croft!
08-12-09, 17:23
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2007/10/18/marbles460.jpg

Sculpted over 2,000 years ago, the Parthenon Marbles are unique and priceless testaments of the Worlds Cultural Heritage. They are the legacy of one of the world’s oldest civilisations and are symbols of humanity’s pursuit of artistic and architectural excellence.

The marbles were not freestanding art but rather were an integral component of a single architectural and artistic piece which was hacked apart by Lord Elgin in the 1800’s. While pressure continues to mount for their return, these “spoils of war and occupation” currently lie hostage in the British Museum in London; thousands of miles away from their home.


Sign the online petition here http://www.unitethemarbles.org/pages/en/home.php

http://www.johnbailly.com/edu/projects/Parthenon%20Marbles.jpg

This website, is an online petition requesting the reunification of the missing Parthenon Marbles to Athens. They will be housed in the shadow of the Acropolis in one of the most dazzling and technologically-advanced museums in the world. This will showcase these priceless treasures in their historical and cultural environment, and restore dignity to one of the world’s most magnificent and best-known monuments: the Parthenon.

This petition will be handed to:

* The British Government and Parliament
* The British Museum
* The European Parliament, Council and Commission
* The United Nations
* UNESCO """"""


I have also made a thread about that in the Greeks' group, but thought to bring it to general attention as well.


Either you're Greek or not, please sign! Every place has its right to preserve its own history.

http://www.greece-athens.com/pages_images/7.jpg



:tmb::tmb::tmb:

badboy70
08-12-09, 17:31
Done :tmb:

Marianna12
08-12-09, 17:36
Done!:tmb:
Thanks for sharing Lora!

ShadyCroft
08-12-09, 17:57
Done ! :tmb:

Another Lara
08-12-09, 19:11
Erm, it's easy for you to say that they were "hacked apart by Lord Elgin", but actually if you knew the history of the temple, it had previously been blown up by the Turks when it was stacked to the rooftops with explosives by the Greeks during the war! All the British did was pick up the last remaining pieces and got them to safety before they disappeared altogether! There was no way they were spoils of war, they were saved from being destroyed by war, thank you very much!

The British Museum has preserved part of the most important pieces of Greek Art, and you act as it's a crime against humanity! That's gratitude for you! :whi:

Also, the Greeks (don't mean to sound disrespectful I promise!) from what I've seen when I've visited have no idea of how to look after their heritage! The times I've been to Crete and have been absolutely disgusted at the state the archaeological sites are left in... rubbish shoved in cracks of bulidings and olive groves growing through the middle of a basilica!:hea:

Please don't get me wrong, I love Greece; the history, the people, the food... but as an archaeologist who cares extremely about the preservation and care of world heritage, the elgin marbles have always been a very sore point!

Fair do's you want it back in your own country, but prove you can really look after these precious pieces of history first, and don't throw hate at the people who have looked after it for the last few centuries in order that there is something left for future generations to enjoy!

Thanks, but I won't be signing the petition, especially when it has been addressed in such a way!

Peace! x :hug::hug:

Mad Tony
08-12-09, 19:14
Lol, "currently lie in hostage in the British museum" :vlol:

I certianly wont be signing this. It's not like these petitions do anything anyway.

Dennis's Mom
08-12-09, 19:31
I'm neutral on this, but the petition greatly mischaracterizes what happened.

remote91
08-12-09, 19:37
I'd rather they stay here

http://driph.com/words/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/awesome.gif

Mad Tony
08-12-09, 19:50
So this is how WWIII will begin... :p

jaywalker
09-12-09, 07:22
I wont be signing the petition.

As Another Lara pointed out the wording around the petition is very one sided giving the wrong impression about the history of the marbles and why they are here etc, if you load a question so much then of course natural reaction is going to be swayed.. We (another lara and i) have been to crete and LOVED the place, but it was so upsetting to see all this history either left to waste away with just a sign saying `area of archeological importance` or opened up to world and dog with nothing to protect the site from wear and tear (rope doesnt stop tourists)

I am always in favour in the preservation of history and all it can teach us as to why we are what we are.. but as pointed out if it wasnt for the british the marbles themselves would be a pile of rubble and not preserved in anyway shape or form, so who would win then? no one..

Thanks to Justin for allowing this thread back open as its definitely an genuinely interesting topic which hopefully can be maturely and properly debated etc..

tlr online
09-12-09, 08:47
Ordinarily this forum does not support petitions. There are however some exceptions.

Please be sure to check with Moderation before canvassing support for a cause on our forum.

Ikas90
09-12-09, 12:31
I'm pretty neutral on this subject as well, and I'm Greek. If the British have possession of our artefacts and are keeping them safe, I see no need for them to be returned to us, where they're more likely to be destroyed. I've been to Greece and I know the population's attitude towards rubbish (as Another Lara pointed out). It's just not necessary to get them shipped over (which they could also be destroyed in the process of shipping).

Trigger_happy
09-12-09, 12:47
I think Another Lara's post sums things up nicely. I think their continued existence is a bigger importance then their destruction to prove a point.

LightningRider
09-12-09, 12:48
True facts. But I signed to show support. :)

Lara Croft!
09-12-09, 12:57
A new museum has been built. It is very modern and well preserved. Its purpose is to house all the Parthenon artefacts. I visited it and all the sculptures that are now in Britain are made out of plaster here, simple replicas. I remember tourists, not Greeks, commenting on how the British should return the marbles now that there is a place in Athens, near Acropolis to house them safely and so near to the place they originally belong to.

You can check out the museum here http://www.theacropolismuseum.gr/?pname=Home&la=2

The British preserved the marbles for so many decades and we are thankful for that. It's true that Greece couldn't have done the same job, when for example it was under Turkish slavery for 400 years. But now that Greece is able to house these marbles, they should be given back. Museums all over the world have Greeks marbles and artefacts. We are not asking for everything to come back, we got plenty as it is, lol! The Parthenon marbles though have a continuity, they are all parts of one theme and we shouldn't split them in half, now that they can be united in their natural place.

Mad Tony
09-12-09, 13:02
All your marbles are belong to us :p

Nah, seriously, why is it you only want this back and nothing else?

Marianna12
09-12-09, 13:04
All your marbles are belong to us :p

Nah, seriously, why is it you only want this back and nothing else?

here:



We are not asking for everything to come back, we got plenty as it is, lol! The Parthenon marbles though have a continuity, they are all parts of one theme and we shouldn't split them in half, now that they can be united in their natural place.

:p

Another Lara
09-12-09, 13:08
Nah, seriously, why is it you only want this back and nothing else?

Because it's like having a puzzle and pieces being missing!

They are a very important piece of art that belong to one of the most famous temples in antiquity, and I would be all for handing them back if it weren't for the fact that they are now a staple part of the British Museum's collection (like the rosetta stone), with it's very own exhibition room.

More people are able to see it and enjoy it at the British Museum... unfair statement but it's true! :(

Trigger_happy
09-12-09, 13:35
Because it's like having a puzzle and pieces being missing!



Its not like the Marbles are the only thing missing: hundreds of bits from the Acropolis etc. have been destroyed and smashed over the centuries. Parts of the marbles are scattered all across Europe- do you want them back as well? Or how about everything ever taken? Random pottery? Greeks Friezes? Where does it stop?

And anyway, it would require more than a petition to get them back- the British Museum has a legal obligation to keep its exhibits.

Another Lara
09-12-09, 13:43
Its not like the Marbles are the only thing missing: hundreds of bits from the Acropolis etc. have been destroyed and smashed over the centuries. Parts of the marbles are scattered all across Europe- do you want them back as well? Or how about everything ever taken? Random pottery? Greeks Friezes? Where does it stop?

And anyway, it would require more than a petition to get them back- the British Museum has a legal obligation to keep its exhibits.

Very true, when you put it like that, but I think the friezes and pediments are the main parts of the parthenon that the Greeks are after and are the pieces that the British Museum have. This argument has been going on for years (I had to write a debate about it for my A Level exams at college) and it's now not only a public interest but a political issue!

Like I said before I want them to stay in the UK, but I can understand (to a certain extent) why the Greeks want them back. But I think they need to come up with a better argument before people will really start listening... the whole "because it's ours!" argument doesn't work with most people!

Trigger_happy
09-12-09, 13:49
Some of the pieces are too fragile to move or even clean, so I can't see how they even get to Greece, and then survive. Plus, the Greek Government is planning to charge to see them, whereas entry to the British Museum is free.

Random other point- if you have a chance people, go to the British Museum. Its amazing! And huge- I spent like a whole day there with my family and saw like only a tenth of it.

Mad Tony
09-12-09, 13:57
I bet the government would have to fork out a lot of money to have it sent over to Greece as well. Air freight isn't cheap you know.

Unless of course, the Greek government are willing to pay all that?

remote91
09-12-09, 14:01
You Greeks want the Parthenon Marbles?

Come get them.
http://www.judiciaryreport.com/images/Britney_Spears_evil_look.jpg

Trigger_happy
09-12-09, 14:02
I bet the government would have to fork out a lot of money to have it sent over to Greece as well. Air freight isn't cheap you know.

Unless of course, the Greek government are willing to pay all that?

Or the museum itself would have to pay- so the Greeks would basically be stealing from charity.

Another Lara
09-12-09, 14:04
I think it would probably be a shared effort in order to make sure no expense is spared in getting them there safely.

But then that is also another issue: Funding.

I went to a lecture at the British Museum once about a degree I'll hiopefully take soon called Museum studies and they went into tiny details about how much work went into getting the Teracotta Army up and running and all the things needed to be paid for... it's mind blowing!

The British Museum have been exhibiting artifacts from all over the world for so long it's second nature to them. Greece on the other hand are really only starting to see the benefit of appreciating their history and what they can get from it and as of yet still have a lot to learn!

Trigger_happy
09-12-09, 14:09
I went to a lecture at the British Museum once about a degree I'll hiopefully take soon called Museum studies and they went into tiny details about how much work went into getting the Teracotta Army up and running and all the things needed to be paid for... it's mind blowing!

!

The Terracotta Army exhibit was amazing. Imagine seeing all of them together. The exhibitors were very very skilled.

Megalith
09-12-09, 14:11
I'm a firm believer that every country's heritage should stay where it originally came from.If we Greeks had some British monuments in our museums i would have also wanted them to return to where they came from.Greek museums are perfectly capable to host their heritage as much as any other museum in the world.Also the preservation level of the archeological sites i've visited in Greece are from good to excellent condition.

And i don't really care how the marbles ended up in Britain.One theory says that they were stolen (which means that no one asked anyone before they took them away) and the other theory says that they did what they did in order to save the treasures.
If we accept the second theory then ok,we are very grateful for your help but why haven't you returned them when the danger was over if the only goal was to "save them in their hour of need."



More people are able to see it and enjoy it at the British Museum... unfair statement but it's true! :(

What kind of excuse is that?If someone really wants to see the marbles they could always come to visit the Acropolis museum and admire them in their natural environment.Athens is much less expensive than London so all the better for the people who come.

I bet the government would have to fork out a lot of money to have it sent over to Greece as well. Air freight isn't cheap you know.

Unless of course, the Greek government are willing to pay all that?

Basically the one who took them should be obliged to return them as well.But still i'm pretty sure you can keep your precious money,the Greek government would be more than happy to pay for the transportation expenses.:)

Trigger_happy
09-12-09, 15:15
Elgin didn't exactly steal them- its just the way he was painted. He had to have asked permission to take them- he had to ask permission just to be in the area. Are you saying we should "return" something that we were allowed to take?

And then, why stop at just the marbles? Why not force everyone in the world to send all their exhibits back to where they came from? Lets go to the Louvre and force them to send all their paintings back to the relatives of the artists, or go to the museums across the world and take back all the Egyptian artefacts and make them give them back?

Lara Croft!
09-12-09, 22:28
Its not like the Marbles are the only thing missing: hundreds of bits from the Acropolis etc. have been destroyed and smashed over the centuries. Parts of the marbles are scattered all across Europe- do you want them back as well? Or how about everything ever taken? Random pottery? Greeks Friezes? Where does it stop?


Are you reading any posts or just posting at random? I explained to you, that there are ancient Greek marbles and other artefacts all over the world, but the Parthenon marbles are parts of a temple which is the most important here!



And then, why stop at just the marbles? go to the museums across the world and take back all the Egyptian artefacts and make them give them back?

If a museum has a basic part of something that belongs to the Pyramids of Giza, which is the most important monument, then yes.





Like I said before I want them to stay in the UK, but I can understand (to a certain extent) why the Greeks want them back. But I think they need to come up with a better argument before people will really start listening... the whole "because it's ours!" argument doesn't work with most people!

It's not about Greeks or British, are you really that blind? The marbles belong to no one, but the most fair thing is for them to be at the place they were created. The fact that all committees and organizations that have been created over the decades and plead the British museum to give the Parthenon marbles back are NOT from GREEK people, shows exactly that. You should respect the landmarks of an area's culture and civilization.


Or the museum itself would have to pay- so the Greeks would basically be stealing from charity.

Stealing from charity? Where do you come up with all that drama? The marbles are far from being returned and you have already decided on the moving procedures and the cost? Plus saying that all will be paid by Britain and that Greeks are thieves? I mean... really???





The British Museum have been exhibiting artifacts from all over the world for so long it's second nature to them. Greece on the other hand are really only starting to see the benefit of appreciating their history and what they can get from it and as of yet still have a lot to learn!

I never used to be a person that supported its country to a large extent, but the way I see you are approaching the issue, forces me to. What do you mean just now? Just because I posted this topic yesterday, does that mean that that's when my country started caring too?

You can appreciate history, because the British museum bought the marbles from Elgin, who as someone said before had "permission to do so". The permission was given by the Ottoman authorities, as Greece was enslaved to them at that time. Is that legal? Or even better, is that ethical?

Ever since a Greek child goes to 1st grade, it learns to appreciate the Greek history and civilization, so where do you come of saying that WE have a lot to learn on that matter?




I'm a firm believer that every country's heritage should stay where it originally came from.If we Greeks had some British monuments in our museums i would have also wanted them to return to where they came from.Greek museums are perfectly capable to host their heritage as much as any other museum in the world.Also the preservation level of the archeological sites i've visited in Greece are from good to excellent condition.

And i don't really care how the marbles ended up in Britain.One theory says that they were stolen (which means that no one asked anyone before they took them away) and the other theory says that they did what they did in order to save the treasures.
If we accept the second theory then ok,we are very grateful for your help but why haven't you returned them when the danger was over if the only goal was to "save them in their hour of need."


What kind of excuse is that?If someone really wants to see the marbles they could always come to visit the Acropolis museum and admire them in their natural environment.Athens is much less expensive than London so all the better for the people who come.

Basically the one who took them should be obliged to return them as well.But still i'm pretty sure you can keep your precious money,the Greek government would be more than happy to pay for the transportation expenses.:)


Agreed!




Elgin didn't exactly steal them- its just the way he was painted. He had to have asked permission to take them- he had to ask permission just to be in the area. Are you saying we should "return" something that we were allowed to take?



Painted? The historically documented facts are paintings to you? No one disagrees that the permission to Elgin was given by the Ottoman authorities, as Greece was enslaved to them at that time. (I also mention that above)

Catapharact
09-12-09, 22:33
And then, why stop at just the marbles? Why not force everyone in the world to send all their exhibits back to where they came from? Lets go to the Louvre and force them to send all their paintings back to the relatives of the artists, or go to the museums across the world and take back all the Egyptian artefacts and make them give them back?

Already being done:

http://blog.taragana.com/e/2009/10/09/french-museum-to-return-egyptian-artifacts-after-egypt-cuts-ties-with-louvre-40800/

Nicky
09-12-09, 23:01
More people are able to see it and enjoy it at the British Museum... unfair statement but it's true! :(

Yeah, so why not move the Great Wall of China to the British Museum then too, so that more people can see it and enjoy it?

Signed.

Cochrane
09-12-09, 23:33
Hm. Is the Panthenon really only greek heritage? After all, they are part of a culture that spread, first through itself and then through being taken over by the romans. European, asian, african and by extension of european also american cultures can all trace their roots back to things like this. As I understand it, the current greek speak a somewhat different language, worship (an) other god(s) and have thrown away many of the ideas of how a society should be formed that were common by then. You do live closer, but other than that, there is not all that much separating you from the british there. I think they probably should be returned to Greece, but I can also understand why some people disagree.

Nevertheless, not going to sign, because I don't believe that signing online petitions has ever helped.

Trigger_happy
10-12-09, 00:36
Are you reading any posts or just posting at random? I explained to you, that there are ancient Greek marbles and other artefacts all over the world, but the Parthenon marbles are parts of a temple which is the most important here!

Why are these carvings more special than any other? Why stop at just them? Demanding they be returned to "complete" the collection sets a president to collect everything together ever. Does this mean we should collect all of Van Gogh's painting in one place to complete the collection?


If a museum has a basic part of something that belongs to the Pyramids of Giza, which is the most important monument, then yes.

So your suggesting that the items survival comes second to it being returned to the "rightful" owner? Many items, including the Marbles, are too fragile to move and returning them might as well be destroying them.

It's not about Greeks or British, are you really that blind? The marbles belong to no one, but the most fair thing is for them to be at the place they were created. The fact that all committees and organizations that have been created over the decades and plead the British museum to give the Parthenon marbles back are NOT from GREEK people, shows exactly that. You should respect the landmarks of an area's culture and civilization.

Not entirely true. One of the reasons the Acropolis museum is being refurbished is part of a Greek campaign to demand back the marbles. The Greeks are the main driving force behind the demands- not, like you suggests everyone except the Greeks. here's a quote from the Greek culture minister:

""We are all obliged to intensify our efforts for the return of the Parthenon Marbles from the British Museum because only then will we have fulfilled our historic duty," Liapis stressed"

That sounds a lot like the Greeks demanding back the marbles, not the British.

And I also find it weird that you suggest the British museum is disrespectful or vulgar or something. If it wasn't for the British museum, we wouldn't have the marbles at all.



Stealing from charity? Where do you come up with all that drama? The marbles are far from being returned and you have already decided on the moving procedures and the cost? Plus saying that all will be paid by Britain and that Greeks are thieves? I mean... really???

The British museum is a charity: you don't have to pay to get in, unlike the Acropolis museum, which is a business.


You can appreciate history, because the British museum bought the marbles from Elgin, who as someone said before had "permission to do so". The permission was given by the Ottoman authorities, as Greece was enslaved to them at that time. Is that legal? Or even better, is that ethical?.

It might not be ethical, but it happened, and it was legal. Centuries ago. And people got over it. If we all thought like that, having to apologise for every action every committed, we would never do anything. Germany would still be apologising every year for Hitler's actions, Gibraltar would be handed back to the Spaniards, against the wishes of the whole population and Greece would be thanking the world for its help in the civil war. The fact that the marbles were legally obtained by Britain gives us just as much right as us to have them. Just because you disagree with the government that controlled Greece at the time, it doesn't make it any less legal: they were the ones in charge, and could do what they want.

Ever since a Greek child goes to 1st grade, it learns to appreciate the Greek history and civilization, so where do you come of saying that WE have a lot to learn on matter?
/
There is a rather large difference between year 1 history and knowing how and where to place priceless relics. Only the recently built Acropolis museum is any where near suited to displaying them. And on that poiint, its not like returning them will fix the pathenon- they are just going to be displayed in a museum setting- identical to as they are know in the British Museum. The argument that it would be restoring the pathenon is rendered useless- they aren't being used to restore the pathenon, they are being used to mawke money in a display identical to the one in Britain.



PS. Sorry about all the spelling mistakes and horrendous formatting, my laptop is compltely on the blink, and its now so slow, I type and the text appears like 10 minutes later, and spell check doesn't work either. :m

voltz
10-12-09, 00:44
Spoils of war or not, I'd rather they stay with who's taking care of them. What was pointed out in the first page is more then enough reason for leaving them where they're are.

Mokono
10-12-09, 00:45
Arguments for this are endless; however, i consider that even though is western cultural heritage, Greece has more rights over the pieces than any other country does. No, the Greeks are not going to blow them into pieces (again), so why not just returning what was taken from their land?

Trigger_happy
10-12-09, 00:48
Arguments for this are endless; however, i consider that even though is western cultural heritage, Greece has more rights over the pieces than any other country does. No, the Greeks are not going to blow them into pieces (again), so why not just returning what was taken from their land?

But they don't legally: they allowed Elgin to remove them. Its like letting someone have a DVD you own and then demanding it back 20 years later:your claim over it is gone.

voltz
10-12-09, 00:50
Exactly!

Mokono
10-12-09, 00:52
But they don't legally: they allowed Elgin to remove them. Its like letting someone have a DVD you own and then demanding it back 20 years later:your claim over it is gone.

But a claim can loose legitimation when you consider the context behind the agreement. It certaintly wasn't done under the most clear circumpstances, sure, seems clear when you're not on the Greek's side.

Trigger_happy
10-12-09, 00:56
But a claim can loose legitimation when you consider the context behind the agreement. It certaintly wasn't done under the most clear circumpstances, sure, seems clear when you're not on the Greek's side.

True but inaction can do the same: the following govt. could have tried to get them back but didn't , suggesting they didn't care so much. Asking 200 years later reduces the legitimacy of the argument.

Mokono
10-12-09, 01:08
True but inaction can do the same: the following govt. could have tried to get them back but didn't , suggesting they didn't care so much. Asking 200 years later reduces the legitimacy of the argument.

And does it reduces the inherent rights of those who were born in the landmark? If that's the case, then let's place a megalith from Stonehenge somewhere else in the planet under unclear circumpstances and let's see if the illustrated claim it back a couple of centuries later. Like it or not, the marbles belong to the Acropolis and it is not about setting everything together (although if that was the case, why not, since it's not about gathering nonexistant pieces, it's about to get tangible elements back to where they belong). Now, whether the government cares or not actually is important as to decide the location where the Marbles are better, however, it still does change where they belong, where they have more right to be. One of the most convincing arguments i've heard to keep them at the BM is the fact that the BM has done a plausible effort to preserve them from aging; in fact, there's no proof where we can rely that the new Museum in Athens is going to give the same care, not because they're not able to, but because we haven't seen it's potential and a mere "try" is way too dangerous for the marbles; even though, this doesn't exime the possibility of a return when conditions are properly conditionated for this to happen. Whether is today or the next century, Greece still has rights over it's direct heritage as long as it exercises the responsibilities linked to those rights (the responsibility to preserve not just the marble, but what it symbolizes to the western world).

CerebralAssassin
10-12-09, 01:57
LOL....Greece is on the verge of going bankrupt and the government is worried about the MARBLES?!

they ****ing need to get their priorities straight quick! o_0?

Another Lara
10-12-09, 08:09
I never used to be a person that supported its country to a large extent, but the way I see you are approaching the issue, forces me to. What do you mean just now? Just because I posted this topic yesterday, does that mean that that's when my country started caring too?

You can appreciate history, because the British museum bought the marbles from Elgin, who as someone said before had "permission to do so". The permission was given by the Ottoman authorities, as Greece was enslaved to them at that time. Is that legal? Or even better, is that ethical?

Ever since a Greek child goes to 1st grade, it learns to appreciate the Greek history and civilization, so where do you come of saying that WE have a lot to learn on that matter?



I'm saying just now int eh whole scheme of things, not yesterday! Like I said before I have bene a regular vistor to Crete over several years and have seen a lot of change for the good in terms of getting their act togetehr when it comes looking after their history, but I have also seen that there is still a lot that needs to be improved!
I have seen one site which has been cut in half by a main road and one side of it has started to be cleaned up, with a ticket office and book shop and the other side has even more historical treasures, that are just noticable throught he piles of rubbish!
I have never had anything against the Greeks, but what I saw, for me, was a strong indication of the attitude to many of the histoical sites native to Greece!

Yeah, so why not move the Great Wall of China to the British Museum then too, so that more people can see it and enjoy it?

Signed.

lol, now that would just be silly, it wouldn't fit! ;)

What I mean by my post was that the British Museum is probably the most famous musem in it's class, it's situtated in London, one of the most famous cities in the world AND IT'S FREE! There's not a lot of places you can go and marvel at the creations of so many cultures that have been and gone and not have to pay for it.

The Acrpolois Museum is something you have to pay to visit (which I don't object against as these things need to be funded) and it's only concentrated on the parthenon's story.

I am only using this as a touristic point of view and that foreigners can go to the British Museum and be like "Hm, now I've just seen the lost civilisation of Mesopotamia, oh and what's this... Ancient Greece!" and then find themselves seeing a marvel that they would never have dreamed of (the Partenon Marbles). People who go to Athens and the Acropolis go there to see Greek history only, which isn't a bad thing, but it deprives those who wouldn't think of it without seeing it right infront of their noses... and yeah some of you might think that's not a bad thing, but this is what museums are all about!

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's early and I'm in a rush as I start work in a sec but I couldn't not reply to some of the things that have bene posted!

Megalith
10-12-09, 08:48
And then, why stop at just the marbles? Why not force everyone in the world to send all their exhibits back to where they came from? Lets go to the Louvre and force them to send all their paintings back to the relatives of the artists, or go to the museums across the world and take back all the Egyptian artefacts and make them give them back?

I believe that all national treasures that were taken away by a less legitimate way should return to their place of birth.However if the transaction was made in a legitimate manner then of course they should remain where they are.So i'm sorry but the truth is that Lord Elgin acted as a vulture and did what he did when the Greeks were vulnerable and couldn't have a say about the matter (we were still under the Turks.)


But they don't legally: they allowed Elgin to remove them. Its like letting someone have a DVD you own and then demanding it back 20 years later:your claim over it is gone.

It was the Turks that gave Elgin the marbles not the Greeks.
Elgin was more than happy to take them for his private collection but after he started having financial problems he decided to sell them in the British Museum.
Your DVD example is not a valid one because we weren't the ones that gave them to the Lord of Elgin.

No, the Greeks are not going to blow them into pieces (again), so why not just returning what was taken from their land?

Again,it was the Turks that used the Parthenon as a place to store their dynamite not the Greeks.




The level of misinformation that goes against the Greeks by some people in this thread is amazing.:wve:

Nicky
10-12-09, 09:02
lol, now that would just be silly, it wouldn't fit! ;)

Of course it would be silly, just like your specific argument actually was. I could understand maybe some of your other arguments, but to keep a monument somewhere because there it would get more visitors, it just doesn't make any sense.

People who go to Athens and the Acropolis go there to see Greek history only, which isn't a bad thing, but it deprives those who wouldn't think of it without seeing it right infront of their noses... and yeah some of you might think that's not a bad thing, but this is what museums are all about!This doesn't make sense either. If someone wants to visit a historical place, they do it for a specific reason. Equally when you go to a museum, you go for a specific - but different - reason. If you go to Giza, for instance, you go to see specifically the pyramids; when you go to Machu Pichu, it's because you want to see Machu Pichu. Many museums have artifacts from other civilizations, and it's indeed fascinating to see them all together. But it's even more fascinating to see the monuments in their natural place. To see how they have blended with the history of the specific civilization they belong to. And the thing with the Parthenon Marbles, like Lora already said, is that they are part of a whole. The temple they belong to is still there in its place, it has been there for centuries and it will remain, yet it is missing this very important part.

The level of misinformation that goes against the Greeks by some people in this thread is amazing.:wve:

I'll have to agree with you!

jaywalker
10-12-09, 09:21
@Megalith - to say misinformation is incorrect as you are seeing it from the greek side, naturally as you are greek (i believe) so why wouldnt you support the side of the story saying that it was all bad people doing things.

History is well known for multiple versions of events exisiting written by different people based on different perspectives. In this case since the turks were in control of the country, rightly or wrongly, they were the law and incharge of things. If they decided something then it happened `legally` from THEIR perspective but to a greek it was all illegal and therefore anything based on that will be seen as such. Many wars have been started and still continue based on the views of people looking to their view of the past only as a point of reference rather then looking at the facts NOW, and putting them into context and moving forward.

As someone pointed out if we had to constantly rewrite history based on changing viewpoints and modern laws then history would be a joke and totally unworkable.

Being passionate and patriotic is honorable and fantastic, however sometimes can clash with common sense. The marbles are seriously fragile and i TRULY believe if had been left in the hands of the greeks, based on my first hand experience of how they handle artifacts in 2009, i can only imagine they would have been destroyed long ago. As Another Lara said we've seen sites split in 2 by a new road, some sites totally left derelict with a shack there and some rope. You are getting passionate about one item which is being cared for, yet you neglect so many in your own country. How can you justify that?

The maintenance and upkeep of the marbles is totally independent of our countries government therefore protected from financial crises, however again i fear if returned to Athens would be primarily used as a means to raise money to fund the country, which again is totally understandable, but when things go wrong who is to say they are not sold off to make a lot of money or worse still priced SO high for entry that you can no longer view them as cannot afford entry.

As many on this thread agree history should be available to everyone to see, and right now the marbles are displayed in a world class museum, totally free for everyone to see. Endangering this freedom for the sake of `pride` is i personally believe misguided, and will only end in tears.

There are MANY artifacts dotted around the world which someone somewhere believes belongs to them so wants back, however common sense has usually intervened and a mutual compromise reached. I believe this is how this should be handled.

@Nicky - Again i will say i would totally expect you as a greek to side with it being all wrong and a horrendous injustice etc etc.. Another Lara said she was making the point based on a purely touristic point of view, so in that case it stands totally as a point of discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism#Most_visited_cities <- this shows the visitors to cities in the world (with sources etc). London is ranked #2 with 14.8m visitors, Athens ranked #20 with 3.9 visitors..

You say that people go to a historical site to see that site, but sometimes the sites, as amazing as they are, dont have the infrastructure to support tourists as easily as some places.

YES it would be amazing for all artifacts to be exactly where they should be, but AGAIN i truly doubt we'd have half of them left due to time and mishandling destroying them

Nicky
10-12-09, 10:27
Jaywalker, you are missing a very important point. You talk about sites split apart by roads etc. You may be right. But Greece has a history of centuries. Every single part of the country has ancient relics in the undergrounds. When the works for the subway were being made, the workers would constantly bump upon relics of ancient houses, roads, temples etc. All of these relics were preserved as they were found (where possible) and now in the subway stations that they were discovered, you can see them intact; example, the river Iridanos in Monastiraki - link (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Athens%20Classic%20Architecture%20Pictures/AthensMetroIridanosvaultedbed10-sma.jpg), link (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Athens%20Classic%20Architecture%20Pictures/AthensMetroIridanosvaultedbed2-smal.jpg) and link (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Athens%20Classic%20Architecture%20Pictures/AthensMetroIridanosvaultedbed4-smal.jpg).

Greece is a small country that has suffered a lot throughout the centuries, with civil wars and dictatorships holding it back until recently (democracy was established only in 1974), and it is during the last 35 years that it has managed to develop extremely fast on many levels. Like you said, history has many viewpoints, but only those directly involved can give you a description that comes closer to the truth. Now, if some views sound one-sided or prejudiced to you, you can simply put all views together and draw your own conclusion. How much we care for and appreciate our history, is something that only we know, and simply because some people may not show said respect, this doesn't characterize the whole nation.

jaywalker
10-12-09, 10:42
Jaywalker, you are missing a very important point. You talk about sites split apart by roads etc. You may be right. But Greece has a history of centuries. Every single part of the country has ancient relics in the undergrounds. When the works for the subway were being made, the workers would constantly bump upon relics of ancient houses, roads, temples etc. All of these relics were preserved as they were found (where possible) and now in the subway stations that they were discovered, you can see them intact; example, the river Iridanos in Monastiraki - link (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Athens%20Classic%20Architecture%20Pictures/AthensMetroIridanosvaultedbed10-sma.jpg), link (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Athens%20Classic%20Architecture%20Pictures/AthensMetroIridanosvaultedbed2-smal.jpg) and link (http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c94/gm2263/Athens%20Classic%20Architecture%20Pictures/AthensMetroIridanosvaultedbed4-smal.jpg).

Greece is a small country that has suffered a lot throughout the centuries, with civil wars and dictatorships holding it back until recently (democracy was established only in 1974), and it is during the last 35 years that it has managed to develop extremely fast on many levels. Like you said, history has many viewpoints, but only those directly involved can give you a description that comes closer to the truth. Now, if some views sound one-sided or prejudiced to you, you can simply put all views together and draw your own conclusion. How much we care for and appreciate our history, is something that only we know, and simply because some people may not show said respect, this doesn't characterize the whole nation.

Oh am not denying that what i have seen of Greece and Crete in particular shows amazing progress. The museum in Iraklion has been revamped in the last year and from what have been told before was all in greek only etc now has clear displays and explanations and back story rather then just items randomly put together. Another example is Phaistos, which has a lovely visitor centre and is trying to give more access to people with audio commentary etc. However right around the corner of Phaistos was another site but almost completely abandoned and neglected `Ayia Triada`, we found it as we'd got a book which mentioned it and it was simply jawdroppingly beautiful, and we happily paid an entry fee even tho there was nothing stopping us just walking past the entrance and not bothering. Funding is ALWAYS going to be an issue, and as i said thats something we have available in almost endless supply through charitable organisations like the British Museum and the like, NOT linked to government whims. The most common response we got to reasons things not `moving` forward in Crete was `cannot afford it, no money from government, waiting on funding`.

You also say only those directly involved can give a description however that is known to not always be the most accurate or `complete` version. There is such a thing as been TOO close to something, and that phrase "Cant see the words for the trees" fits here too.. Not saying its not a valid viewpoint because it is an ESSENTIAL viewpoint to take into consideration, but the whole picture can only be seen taking every part into consideration, and that means usually a conclusion drawn up by a totally impartial representative.
Dont forget that there are many British soldiers (and other nations too) permenantly located in Greece in the many war cemetaries dedicated to the 2nd World War. So you cannot say that you are the only ones touched by wars on your soil. Many British people hold Greece very tenderly in their hearts and as a 2nd home.

You will say i am British therefore will always back the museum but thats not totally true. I am in on the side of the marbles themselves, which right now are housed in a secure well maintained facility (just happens to be in London).. the process of moving/rehousing these can potentially cause irreparable damage which would mean no one actually wins. Greece has a history counted in millenia, thats why it HAS to be preserved. Its THE foundation of society as we know it. That shouldnt be jeopardised for the sake of national pride or monetary gains. Its a bitter pill to swallow but what would you prefer the knowledge that your history is continuing and is wowing millions, or opening the crate to find smashed pieces and its lost forever (worst case but theres no mulligan in reality).

Lara Croft!
12-12-09, 15:47
So your suggesting that the items survival comes second to it being returned to the "rightful" owner? Many items, including the Marbles, are too fragile to move and returning them might as well be destroying them.

......

The British museum is a charity: you don't have to pay to get in, unlike the Acropolis museum, which is a business.



Firstly, it is my firm belief that nobody (either Greek or of any other nationality) would ask for the marbles to be moved if there was a danger of them being destroyed. If scientists advised against their being moved, then ok. But I think that with the proper equipment and care, it's not difficult.

Secondly, the greatest majority of museums all over the world, charge an admission fee. It's not about being a business. Museums need money in order to preserve themselves. Does the British museum have a gift shop? If yes, then it can be classified as business too. The Acropolis museum since it opened up until 2010 has only charged 1 euro per person.



But they don't legally: they allowed Elgin to remove them. Its like letting someone have a DVD you own and then demanding it back 20 years later:your claim over it is gone.


If you came by my house and took a CD from my "guardian", whomever that may be, without my consent, then I have every right to ask for it back, when I'm an adult.
[and just to be clear... "Guardian"=Turkish slavery / "adult" = free Greek nation]



Whether is today or the next century, Greece still has rights over it's direct heritage as long as it exercises the responsibilities linked to those rights

Fair and true.



LOL....Greece is on the verge of going bankrupt and the government is worried about the MARBLES?!

they ****ing need to get their priorities straight quick! o_0?


That is irrelevant. We, as every country, must try to preserve our culture and civilization. Keep in mind that moral bankruptcy is way worse than the economic one.





Greece is a small country that has suffered a lot throughout the centuries, with civil wars and dictatorships holding it back until recently (democracy was established only in 1974), and it is during the last 35 years that it has managed to develop extremely fast on many levels.

It's a good thing you brought that up. Greece is a developing country. Had it been a developed one for decades and only ask for the marbles now, it would be occasional and hypocritical. But ever since Greece stepped up on its stand, it has been trying to claim its heritage back.



Although some of the first replies where very one-sided, as the conversation went on, both sides have "added water in their wine" as the ancient Greeks would say. :)

jaywalker
14-12-09, 15:07
Dont know if to feel insulted or what about fact you've totally bypassed my posts. Either you feel i have answered well enough and you understand my position and dont think you can say anything back, or your little comment about some posts being `one sided then adding water to the wine` was a dig at me as if u think i have switched sides, at no point has my view point changed.

Trigger_happy
14-12-09, 16:17
Firstly, it is my firm belief that nobody (either Greek or of any other nationality) would ask for the marbles to be moved if there was a danger of them being destroyed. If scientists advised against their being moved, then ok. But I think that with the proper equipment and care, it's not difficult.

Some parts of the marbles are too fragile to move: the Trustees of the BM admit that:

'The trustees of the British Museum have stated they would consider lending the marbles to Athens—though some are too fragile to travel in either direction, notes the director, Neil MacGregor'

So even if you took all the others, you still wouldn't have all of them, which them defeats the one of the biggest arguments for taking them back.

GenyaArikado
14-12-09, 16:36
I signed, If they can return them back, why not. I know that they saved them from being destroyed, but they still belong to Greece

But they don't legally: they allowed Elgin to remove them. Its like letting someone have a DVD you own and then demanding it back 20 years later:your claim over it is gone.

how can you even compare DVD with a X000 years old statues made of marble