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Solice
22-12-09, 01:55
This phrase is often prompted by Christians that are offended by stores or other institutions that say 'Seasons Greetings', or 'Happy Holidays' in there ads rather than 'Merry Christmas'.

The phrase implies that the Winter Solstice, observed by many societies around the world for thousands of years, belongs to Christians exclusively. This mentality is incredibly arrogate. :rolleyes:

I hope this belief is not prevalent among modern Christians, you tell me. I hope most Christians believe that all people should be equally included in society. Maybe this phrase will not be heard in years to come, let's hope so.

Happy Holidays, people!:)

SamReeves
22-12-09, 02:00
What BS.

I said Merry Christmas to the folks at the market today, and they said it back, happily too! ;)

aktrekker
22-12-09, 02:02
I think the title of this thread is very deceptive.
Shame on you :smk:


LOL - no Christmas spirit for a spanking.

patriots88888
22-12-09, 02:10
What BS.

I said Merry Christmas to the folks at the market today, and they said it back, happily too! ;)

Agreed and indeed! I'm starting to have some serious doubts about the direction of our species if we are supposed to feel guilty about how we go about extending our personal well-wishes.

interstellardave
22-12-09, 02:12
Happy Festivus everyone!

Catapharact
22-12-09, 02:14
Happy Eid-Ul-Chrismaka-uanza!

Catracoth
22-12-09, 02:19
Happy Halloween!

patriots88888
22-12-09, 02:21
Happy Halloween!

You're about 2 months late for that party. Or 10 months early.

EmeraldFields
22-12-09, 02:21
A very Happy Unbirthday to you!:D

Capt. Murphy
22-12-09, 02:52
Shh....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EM7FaOc3Zk

*whispers* Merry Christmas. ;)

voltz
22-12-09, 02:58
In support of this thread, I shall put a picture of Christ up next to my christmas tree. After that, I'm putting it back in the closet considering I don't want religious figures staring at me in my privacy. :ton:

Solice
22-12-09, 03:51
What BS.

I said Merry Christmas to the folks at the market today, and they said it back, happily too! ;)

I am referring to institutional phrases, not personal well-wishes. Although, the real hard core may be offended by personal phrases to, I am not sure.

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 08:21
Being Christian myself, I do find it slightly rude that non-christians 'celebrate' it and commercialise it with tacky merchandise (ALthough some is quite nice) and find an excuse to give each other presents. Christmas is supposed to celebrate Jesus' birth (ALthough he wasn't born on that day...) And find it annoying that non-christians just pick and choose holidays they want to celebrate. I mean how many non-christians do Ramadan or Pesach? Its like Easter. Remembering the death of christ but people use it as an excuse to gorge on chocolate. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for non christians celebrating our holdiays because it brings relgiions together but I don't think they should stray to far from its intended purpose and use it as an excuse to gorge themselves.

voltz
22-12-09, 08:26
Being Christian myself, I do find it slightly rude that non-christians 'celebrate' it and commercialise it with tacky merchandise (ALthough some is quite nice) and find an excuse to give each other presents. Christmas is supposed to celebrate Jesus' birth (ALthough he wasn't born on that day...) And find it annoying that non-christians just pick and choose holidays they want to celebrate. I mean how many non-christians do Ramadan or Pesach? Its like Easter. Remembering the death of christ but people use it as an excuse to gorge on chocolate. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for non christians celebrating our holdiays because it brings relgiions together but I don't think they should stray to far from its intended purpose and use it as an excuse to gorge themselves.

I had my family gathering last weekend, commercial or not all this is worth it.

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 08:26
I had my family gathering last weekend, all this is worth it.

Indeed. :D :hug:

Keir_Eidos
22-12-09, 09:01
Being Christian myself, I do find it slightly rude that non-christians 'celebrate' it and commercialise it with tacky merchandise (ALthough some is quite nice) and find an excuse to give each other presents. Christmas is supposed to celebrate Jesus' birth (ALthough he wasn't born on that day...) And find it annoying that non-christians just pick and choose holidays they want to celebrate. I mean how many non-christians do Ramadan or Pesach? Its like Easter. Remembering the death of christ but people use it as an excuse to gorge on chocolate. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for non christians celebrating our holdiays because it brings relgiions together but I don't think they should stray to far from its intended purpose and use it as an excuse to gorge themselves.

Nice post.

I know this is terribly narrow-minded of me, but I had never considered what a Christian's view of my take on Christmas would be. For me it's not about what the bible says, it's about relaxation and family, but it was good to read your perspective :)

The people that throw their arms up in outrage and complain that they 'can't call it Christmas any more' or that people do call it Christmas but shouldn't are in the minority and need to stop reading the Daily Mail.

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 09:08
Lol. I read the Daily Mail. :) In my opinion, Christmas can be about a lot of different things, like family etc... but I always go to church christmas day. Its nice to be reminded. I suppose Christmas can be about many things providing you don't over indulge. Many of the youth today (Although I am one of them) feel its about getting the bigger, better and more expensive presents so they can out-do their mates. NO NO NO!!! I feel overall its about not just jesus but Selflessness and NOT 100% what the bible says. Where you spend time with your family, relax and make evryone else happy. In my family, while we are moderate and get by I can't have overly expensive presents and am grateful for what I get.

Keir_Eidos
22-12-09, 09:19
Lol. I read the Daily Mail. :) In my opinion, Christmas can be about a lot of different things, like family etc... but I always go to church christmas day. Its nice to be reminded. I suppose Christmas can be about many things providing you don't over indulge. Many of the youth today (Although I am one of them) feel its about getting the bigger, better and more expensive presents so they can out-do their mates. NO NO NO!!! I feel overall its about not just jesus but Selflessness and NOT 100% what the bible says. Where you spend time with your family, relax and make evryone else happy. In my family, while we are moderate and get by I can't have overly expensive presents and am grateful for what I get.

I don't agree with organised religion for many of my own personal and strong reasons reasons (I respect the faith of those that do) but I think the moral vacuum that has been left by the sharp decline of Christianity in the UK has been filled by a lot of junk and worthlessness. (Uh oh, I sound like a Daily Mail journalist, kill me now :D http://e.deviantart.net/emoticons/s/stupidme2.gif )

The overindulgence you speak of is pretty vulgar and depressing. I was guilty of it once despite my parents' best efforts. I'm pleased I grew out of it. The never ending material want is a road to nothing.



PS- Stop reading the Daily Mail, it's bad for your brain http://e.deviantart.net/emoticons/m/manhug.gif

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 09:22
Lol. I don't BELIEVE the daily mail. ;) Half of its trash anyways... I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from and totally agree with the decline thingy you just wrote. :) Wow, what a mature discussion. :hug:

LightningRider
22-12-09, 09:24
I never believed Christmas was about Christ Birth, or Easter was about Christ's Resurrection.

Family and New Start, Respectively. ;)

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 09:26
I never believed Christmas was about Christ Birth, or Easter was about Christ's Resurrection.

Family and New Start, Respectively. ;)


I believe its a combination of the two. A festival can be about a number of different things just some people feel its about greed and overindulgence. Besides, I'm not an absolutely devote-my-life-to-it christian but I am like 75% christian and share many of the beliefs but I am allowed to believe other things as well.

Punaxe
22-12-09, 10:53
Being Christian myself, I do find it slightly rude that non-christians 'celebrate' it and commercialise it with tacky merchandise (ALthough some is quite nice) and find an excuse to give each other presents. Christmas is supposed to celebrate Jesus' birth (ALthough he wasn't born on that day...) And find it annoying that non-christians just pick and choose holidays they want to celebrate. I mean how many non-christians do Ramadan or Pesach? Its like Easter. Remembering the death of christ but people use it as an excuse to gorge on chocolate. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for non christians celebrating our holdiays because it brings relgiions together but I don't think they should stray to far from its intended purpose and use it as an excuse to gorge themselves.

You have to take into account the history (and the present), though. I believe most if not all cultures celebrated Winter solstice long before it became a Christian ritual, and through Christian rule of our countries, it has become a national holiday, which it has remained when church and state were separated. This means that the holiday in itself is no longer necessarily associated with one or another set of practices (e.g. Christianity): it is merely a national holiday, originating firstly from many different "pagan" rituals, later taken over by Christianity. There are many different things to celebrate this month for many different people, and these days people can also celebrate just because. Christians do not have the exclusive right to celebrate anything at any time.

What people do on this holiday is their choice, and if someone doesn't celebrate Christmas but rather [something else], I can see why they wouldn't want to be wished a merry Christmas.
I'm not saying it bothers me personally, although I would frown a little bit if someone'd wish me a happy Hanukkah, but "Happy Holidays" seems to be the most reasonable option in today's society, especially for those entities that are present among all parts of the society, e.g. corporations.

(Partly copied from an earlier post (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=4203680&postcount=98).)

patriots88888
22-12-09, 11:20
What people do on this holiday is their choice, and if someone doesn't celebrate Christmas but rather [something else], I can see why they wouldn't want to be wished a merry Christmas.
I'm not saying it bothers me personally, although I would frown a little bit if someone'd wish me a happy Hanukkah, but "Happy Holidays" seems to be the most reasonable option in today's society, especially for those entities that are present among all parts of the society, e.g. corporations.

Why would you frown if you're not bothered personally? When someone extends another a greeting or well-wish such as this, it's not intended to be done so in a manner in which to offend, but rather as a friendly and kind gesture. I see no reason to frown when someone is just being nice. As far as I can see, no harm is intended. Just because you might not associate on a personal level with a specific gesture, it doesn't depreciate it's value of being kindly and friendly.

ESPN's MNF extended a 'Merry Christmas' to all it's viewers last night at the conclusion of the football game and I for one really appreciated that and I'm glad that they're not succumbing to the growing pressure to be 'all-politically correct' as others seem so intent to do so.

A 'Happy Holidays' and a 'Merry Christmas' are not one in the same and it's good to know some still understand that difference and extend that greeting.

Punaxe
22-12-09, 11:26
Why would you frown if you're not bothered personally? When someone extends another a greeting or well-wish such as this, it's not intended to be done so in a manner in which to offend, but rather as a friendly and kind gesture. I see no reason to frown when someone is just being nice. As far as I can see, no harm is intended. Just because you might not associate on a personal level with a specific gesture, it doesn't depreciate it's value of being kindly and friendly.

ESPN's MNF extended a 'Merry Christmas' to all it's viewers last night at the conclusion of the football game and I for one really appreciated that and I'm glad that they're not succumbing to the growing pressure to be 'all-politically correct' as others seem so intent to do so.

A 'Happy Holidays' and a 'Merry Christmas' are not one in the same and it's good to know some still understand that difference and extend that greeting.

I would frown merely because it's unusual to hear that around here. I wasn't saying I wouldn't appreciate it or wouldn't see the value it holds. Hearing that particular greeting is simply not something I'm used to, and I can imagine that others would feel the same - especially if they care so much about performing their own particular set of rituals.

Mad Tony
22-12-09, 11:40
What BS.

I said Merry Christmas to the folks at the market today, and they said it back, happily too! ;)This.

I'd love to see more companies saying merry Christmas. :D

patriots88888
22-12-09, 11:50
I would frown merely because it's unusual to hear that around here. I wasn't saying I wouldn't appreciate it or wouldn't see the value it holds. Hearing that particular greeting is simply not something I'm used to, and I can imagine that others would feel the same - especially if they care so much about performing their own particular set of rituals.

Well then that's really what this is all about. If someone were to greet me with a gesture that I didn't associate personally with, I would simply just ignore that particulair aspect of it but still feel they were just being friendly and accept it as just that. I think people get way to carried away with all this sorta thing.

If things continue in this direction, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see an outbreak of bogus law suits of people claiming to have been offended and somehow 'damaged' by a friendly gesture just because they don't associate with specific nature of it. Honestly. :rolleyes:

Mad Tony
22-12-09, 11:51
Given how we have got to be one of the most politically correct countries in the world, I was surprised to see that a lot of the commercials on TV actually mention the word "Christmas".

Cochrane
22-12-09, 11:55
Being Christian myself, I do find it slightly rude that non-christians 'celebrate' it and commercialise it with tacky merchandise (ALthough some is quite nice) and find an excuse to give each other presents. Christmas is supposed to celebrate Jesus' birth (ALthough he wasn't born on that day...) And find it annoying that non-christians just pick and choose holidays they want to celebrate. I mean how many non-christians do Ramadan or Pesach? Its like Easter. Remembering the death of christ but people use it as an excuse to gorge on chocolate. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for non christians celebrating our holdiays because it brings relgiions together but I don't think they should stray to far from its intended purpose and use it as an excuse to gorge themselves.

I think commercialism is quite separate from being religious or not. All the commercial things we are told to hate are sold and bought by christians just like anybody else.

For most non-christians who do celebrate christmas, it's not about that, but rather about things like having the family together, peace and love, as well as a ritual time of calm at the end of the year. For you, it is also the birth of Jesus, but considering that he mainly stood for peace and love, I don't actually think that the purpose is too different (even though it's obviously not the same).

As for the pick-and-choose attitude, I think most of us are living in countries that have a clear christianity-dominated culture. Why not just go with that?

I Need A Map
22-12-09, 12:02
Happy Festivus everyone!

Happy Festivus to you too:cln:
http://oswaldadventures.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/festivus.jpg

Punaxe
22-12-09, 12:14
Well then that's really what this is all about. If someone were to greet me with a gesture that I didn't associate personally with, I would simply just ignore that particulair aspect of it but still feel they were just being friendly and accept it as just that. I think people get way to carried away with all this sorta thing.

If things continue in this direction, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see an outbreak of bogus law suits of people claiming to have been offended and somehow 'damaged' by a friendly gesture just because they don't associate with specific nature of it. Honestly. :rolleyes:

Well yes, I think you're right. I don't hope it gets to that point although another worry is people trying to be one step ahead of that, by already removing all associations with a particular festivity lest they insult the others. I was saying I understand the need for generalizations at some levels and the feeling some may get when given a "foreign" greeting, but on the other hand you're right that there is a danger of over-doing it and in the process losing identity, while somewhere in the middle one could say we are in the process of creating a new multicultural identity.
I think it's hard to take a stance either way. Perhaps a good guideline could be to adapt only if proven necessary and stick to traditions otherwise, inviting others to join them, in their own way if so desired.

Cochrane
22-12-09, 12:38
Certainly, over-generalization is bad. I think we may still have a few things at home that were officially sold in the GDR as "geflügelte Jahresendfigur", i.e. winged end-of-year figurine. First price goes to whoever can figure out what this is in plain german and/or english. Anyway, stuff like that is just silly.

Personally, I am not a christian, and I personally find many areas of church intrusion into public life rather problematic (such as celebrating the anniversary of our constitution with a church service, or the american "In God We Trust" on the money). But christmas is such a huge part of the culture that I think everybody can accept it.

Another Lara
22-12-09, 12:49
(Uh oh, I sound like a Daily Mail journalist, kill me now :D http://e.deviantart.net/emoticons/s/stupidme2.gif )



PS- Stop reading the Daily Mail, it's bad for your brain http://e.deviantart.net/emoticons/m/manhug.gif

Hey I work for the Daily Mail! :(

I'm not a religious person (I believe in God, but not the one organised religion tells me to believe in!) but I have always respected what Christmas stands for and represents to many people, and I have had arguments with friends of mine before who are atheists and pick on me for believing in God... I end up calling them hypocrits for tagging onto a religious holiday just so they can get something out of it!

Most important thing for me is just being with family, presents don't really bother me, it's just all part of tradition (blame the Victorians!)

EDIT: Should add that many Christian Holidays predate Christianity through pagan celebrations, so if anything they don't belong to any group of people!

snork
22-12-09, 12:55
Being Christian myself, I do find it slightly rude that non-christians 'celebrate' it ...
Christmas is supposed to celebrate Jesus' birth (ALthough he wasn't born on that day...)
...
And find it annoying that non-christians just pick and choose holidays they want to celebrate. ...
Its like Easter. Remembering the death of christ but people use it as
Wow, how "offensive" of you to claim your personal religious belief as "THE TRUTH". ;)
I find it annoying that religions try to take over way older holy things and claim them their own.
Celebrating solstice has been part of human culture far longer than 2000 years, just the same with equinoxes,
or whatever other date suits local circumstances to celebrate spring or autumn arrival.

I am not religious in any way and like highly allergic to constitutional / organised religion / church. Yet I am not ready to feel "offended" or "religiously harrassed" by someone wishing me "Merry Christmas", and I also answer them the same way. No problem.

I just had a very nice little solstice party with NO drinks involved. Just closing off this year and welcoming the return of the sun. :)
Now the wild days until new years eve. :D

Come on, if some of the tolerant muslim immigrants here can be so tolerant to let their children enjoy the overall christmas hype and partly even go as far as having some presents for their children or even have a small christmas tree thingy - then I don't see why I should not be able to tolerate (christian or not) people to enjoy christmas.

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 12:56
^ What do you do in the Daily Mail BTW?

Anyways...

From Cochane

For most non-christians who do celebrate christmas, it's not about that, but rather about things like having the family together, peace and love, as well as a ritual time of calm at the end of the year. For you, it is also the birth of Jesus, but considering that he mainly stood for peace and love, I don't actually think that the purpose is too different (even though it's obviously not the same).

FROM ME

I see where you are coming from but its just general attitudes from most people give off negative messages. I'm sure to most non-christians this is what it is about but stil... :(

FROM PUNAXE

that there is a danger of over-doing it and in the process losing identity, while somewhere in the middle one could say we are in the process of creating a new multicultural identity.

FROM ME

You hit the nail on the head. I feel christmas is losing its indentity and I don't think it should be.

FROM ANOTHER LARA

I end up calling them hypocrits for tagging onto a Christian holiday just so they can get something out of it!

FROM ME

Thats what I hate is when not necessarily your friend but spoilt people in general think its all about them and its just like another give-me-expensive-presents day!

Snork ~ I'm not claiming it to be the truth and I'm aware that people used to celebrate solstice far before christmas came about, but 99% people don't celebrate the solstice now do they? They just use the christian name. And about the toleration, I wouldn't mind if people celebrated christmas with non-selfish beliefs (Some people are just like GIMME PREZZIES) and I don't like that attitude. Whereas if its family and love and care fair enough, but people should be more aware of what it means to a large amount of people and not just an excuse to get drunk, party hard and out do your mates with a new 100 metre plasma HD TV. Glad you enjoyed your party though. :hug:

Lara Croft!
22-12-09, 13:02
I'm a Cristian Orthodox and I believe that wanting to own the rights of all words and holidays that include the word "Christ" is just plain wrong.

snork
22-12-09, 13:02
MK, don't worry. That's why I put quotation marks and the ;) smiley to show I am not so serious about that part.

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 13:04
MK, don't worry. That's why I put quotation marks and the ;) smiley to show I am not so serious about that part.

Yeah I know. :) I know you weren't serious and I could see your point and I'm not trying to shove religion down your throat, (Like some people do... ugh! I hate that!) I just feel everything should be said. Its really interesting other peoples opinions on this. :D Some reason, I really like this thread now. :hug:

@ Lara Croft. Personally, I too think its silly to have the rights to earn christ words, I'd rather just have a bit more recognition, and not stray too far from the subject.

Reggie
22-12-09, 13:32
There's lots of celebrations going on this time of the year. As an agnostic, I prefer to pay attention to the more tangible Winter Solstice but and I'm sure others are celebrating this time of the year for other reasons too - so its just easier to say Happy Holidays but I use it interchangeably with Merry Christmas simply because its the said thing - political correctness can be exhausting.

Dennis's Mom
22-12-09, 13:59
Happy Festivus everyone!

And now, the Feats of Strength! *moves armoire*

As a Christian, I think it's fabulous that people want to celebrate Christmas, regardless of whether or not they celebrate Jesus' birth. Family, friends, love, being kinder to others, giving something to those less fortunate---sheesh, why would any Christian have a problem with people being kinder to others?

The last message I think Jesus would want anyone to send out about Christmas is "you can't celebrate it. You didn't pass the test." Heck, Jesus invented grading on a curve. :D

Also, please disabuse yourselves of this notion that Christians think they invented everything regarding Christmas. Most of us are extremely happy to acknowledge the history of the timing, the tree, wassail, etc. That goes for Easter too. No hidden agenda there. We're not sitting around at secret meetings, backslapping each other over how clever we were to devise a timing system for Lent. In a world where calenders were virtually nonexistent and clocks were non-existent, using the sun was a pretty standard method of telling time. Not embarrassed to admit Christians weren't the first. ;)

Mystery-King
22-12-09, 14:05
Yeah, Christians didn't invent everything... ;)
But yes... Christmas is about being kinder to others (with a bit of jesus thrown in for good measure... :D) Just some peoples selfish attitudes... thats all. :hug:

lara c. fan
22-12-09, 14:16
Certainly, over-generalization is bad. I think we may still have a few things at home that were officially sold in the GDR as "geflügelte Jahresendfigur", i.e. winged end-of-year figurine. First price goes to whoever can figure out what this is in plain german and/or english. Anyway, stuff like that is just silly.

Personally, I am not a christian, and I personally find many areas of church intrusion into public life rather problematic (such as celebrating the anniversary of our constitution with a church service, or the american "In God We Trust" on the money). But christmas is such a huge part of the culture that I think everybody can accept it.

Flying end year figure? My germans not good :p
Any way, generalization is bad in any forms...

Thorir
22-12-09, 14:34
There's no Christianity in my Christmas. :)

The Scandinavian word for X-mas is related to yule-tide. It's a celebration of the winter solistice.
People eat good food, drink a great deal of alcohol and socialise with family and friends.
It's still very similar to a pagan blót. With the capitalist practice of gift-giving. :)

Encore
22-12-09, 14:44
There's no Christianity in my Christmas. :)

The Scandinavian word for X-mas is related to yule-tide. It's a celebration of the winter solistice.
People eat good food, drink a great deal of alcohol and socialise with family and friends.
It's still very similar to a pagan blót. With the capitalist practice of gift-giving. :)

Scandinavian christmas rocks!!!


:cln:

Joking aside, yeah I've always regarded Christmas as more of a social event than just a religious one.

Capt. Murphy
23-12-09, 13:11
Solstice was a pagan worship to their gods so that the world wouldn't fall into eternal night.

I would accept the word "Holidays"... Because it's like Holy-Day.

The meaning of Christmas is that God gave a gift to all man-kind - Jesus, so that he could take our place, to buy us back from the fall of Sin. Celebrate however you want to... But the true meaning of Christmas is giving gifts to those in need, just like Christ was the gift given to us who are in need of redemption.

jackles
23-12-09, 14:15
I was reading an article by Ed Husain today where he said that we should all enjoy Christmas in the uk as celebrating british culture and that muslims can appreciate the birth of Christ as a prophet.

Over here it is the time of the year people are most likely to make a trip to church.

......anyway the early christians choose the winter solstice to adopt as Christmas as there were already many celebrations associating the renewal of life....rebirth after the darker days...and many of the things associated with Christmas are victorian innovations.

Your_Envy*
23-12-09, 14:16
There's no Christianity in my Christmas. :)

The Scandinavian word for X-mas is related to yule-tide. It's a celebration of the winter solistice.
People eat good food, drink a great deal of alcohol and socialise with family and friends.
It's still very similar to a pagan blót. With the capitalist practice of gift-giving. :)


Slovene has no "Christ" in "Christmas" too. We say it "Božič"- Maybe the word came out from the word God (Bog - Božič), I don't know. :) I don't mind if you say it like Holidays, Christmas, Xmas, whatever you want. :) It's your thing, I am happy enough if somebody wishes me a happy holiday! :D