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Mad Tony
10-01-10, 21:43
A radical Islamic group has cancelled plans to hold an anti-war march through a town famous for honouring the UK's servicemen and women killed abroad.

Members of Islam4UK had planned to carry empty coffins through Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire, to honour Muslims killed in the Afghanistan conflict.
The government had been considering outlawing the group, which is said to have extremist links.

Earlier this week, Gordon Brown said plans for the march were "disgusting".
Families of soldiers who died in Afghanistan had condemned the planned march, and MPs signed a motion calling on the home secretary and local authorities to prevent the protest.

Wootton Bassett has become the focus of public mourning, with hundreds lining the streets every time hearses carrying the repatriated bodies of killed UK service personnel are driven through the town from nearby RAF Lyneham.

'Maximum publicity'

On Sunday, a statement from Islam4UK's leader, Anjem Choudary, said it had "successfully highlighted the plight of Muslims in Afghanistan".
"We at Islam4UK have decided, after consultation with others including our Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, that no more could be achieved even if a procession were to take place in Wootton Bassett," he said.

Islam4UK had previously said it had chosen the market town to create maximum publicity.

The News of the World reported on Sunday that Home Secretary Alan Johnson would outlaw the group on Monday.
The newspaper said comments made by senior members of Islam4UK and on websites breached the Terrorism Act.

A Home Office spokesman said the final decision on whether to ban the group rested with Mr Johnson but he would not confirm the plan.
"Proscription is a tough but necessary power to tackle terrorism," he said.
"Decisions on proscription must be proportionate and based on evidence that a group is concerned in terrorism as defined in the Terrorism Act 2000.

I am both happy and relieved by this news. Happy because quite frankly the location of the march is just disgusting, not to mention the subject of the march is stupid. "Honoring Muslims killed in the war". First of all that means not just honoring the civilians killed but also the extremists killing our boys. Secondly, what about people killed of other faiths?

I'm relieved because this march would only stir up more tension in this country. These terrorists would give the moderate Muslims in this country a bad name and probably help garner the BNP support.

Also, kudos to Brown and the government for taking a strong stand against them. :tmb:

Beans-Bot
10-01-10, 22:17
Well, I do think that the dead on the opposing side need at least a little bit of recognition from our side. It's not like they didn't all have families and friends, too, after all. But I could see a demonstration like that getting violent quite quickly, so ultimately I'm also glad they canceled it. I believe the media coverage relayed their intended message, anyway, which was the point in the first place.

So no harm, no foul. :p

trXD
10-01-10, 22:22
Not every Muslim is a suicide bomber for god sake. We are guilty of a few huge mistreatments over there aswell, have you seen what the army has been doing in some cases?

Capturing people and torturing them, ugh. And there is no way to 100% stop it either.

Edit: Oh yeah im glad it didn't happen though, it would only hurt its own cause.

Mad Tony
10-01-10, 22:29
Not every Muslim is a suicide bomber for god sake. We are guilty of a few huge mistreatments over there aswell, have you seen what the army has been doing in some cases?

Capturing people and torturing them, ugh. And there is no way to 100% stop it either.I never said that. I knew this would happen. I specifically stated how if this demonstration were to go ahead these extremists (Islam4UK) would make the rest of the moderate Muslims in the country look bad. I considered putting a message at the bottom stating out in clear terms that my beef is with the extremists, but I thought people would understand that anyway. Obviously not.

It's like I'm not even allowed to condemn extremists without being told by people that I'm generalizing.

Capturing people and torturing them? First I've heard of it. Our army is doing a fine job out there and the very few that do misbehave are dealt with appropriately.

Well, I do think that the dead on the opposing side need at least a little bit of recognition from our side. It's not like they didn't all have families and friends, too, after all. But I could see a demonstration like that getting violent quite quickly, so ultimately I'm also glad they canceled it. I believe the media coverage relayed their intended message, anyway, which was the point in the first place.

So no harm, no foul. :pNo, absolutely not. The people we're fighting (Al-Qaeda) are murderous scum intent on killing innocents and oppressing women. They are vile and should be wiped from the face of the Earth.

The civilians however are an unfortunate casualty of this war. However, most of the time their deaths are at the hands of the Taliban/Al-Qaeda.

trXD
10-01-10, 22:50
I never said that. I knew this would happen. I specifically stated how if this demonstration were to go ahead these extremists (Islam4UK) would make the rest of the moderate Muslims in the country look bad. I considered putting a message at the bottom stating out in clear terms that my beef is with the extremists, but I thought people would understand that anyway. Obviously not.

It's like I'm not even allowed to condemn extremists without being told by people that I'm generalizing.

Capturing people and torturing them? First I've heard of it. Our army is doing a fine job out there and the very few that do misbehave are dealt with appropriately.

Wait what? First you have heard of it? Sorry, but how? Google it or whatever then.

Maybe i did jump conclusions about that, but that's honestly the impression i got. You didn't mention Muslims other than the terrorists so it was easy for your post to come across that way.

Edit:

No, absolutely not. The people we're fighting (Al-Qaeda) are murderous scum intent on killing innocents and oppressing women. They are vile and should be wiped from the face of the Earth.

The civilians however are an unfortunate casualty of this war. However, most of the time their deaths are at the hands of the Taliban/Al-Qaeda.

Oh ok so, you are generalizing. This is a war between to countries mad tony not a war between good and evil. A whole lot of Muslims have been caught up in the war and fight for their country, that doesn't make them and more murderous scum than our side. Like i said not everyone there is a suicide bomber and im not just talking about civilians!

Mad Tony
10-01-10, 22:52
Wait what? First you have heard of it? Sorry, but how? Google it or whatever then.

Maybe i did jump conclusions about that, but that's honestly the impression i got. You didn't mention Muslims other than the terrorists so it was easy for your post to come across that way.Not gonna provide a link to back up your claim? Ok then.

Err, yes I did.

These terrorists would give the moderate Muslims in this country a bad nameOh ok so, you are generalizing. This is a war between to countries mad tony not a war between good and evil. A whole lot of Muslims have been caught up in the war and fight for their country, that doesn't make them and more murderous scum than our side. Like i said not everyone there is a suicide bomber and im not just talking about civilians!Do you even know anything about this war?

First of all, it is not a war between countries. Don't believe me? Look it up. We are fighting on the side of the Afghans against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. We've been doing so for many years. Please, go and read up a bit about this war and then we can debate.

I honestly don't know where you got the idea from that we're fighting the country.

Chocola teapot
10-01-10, 22:53
How Nice :)

trXD
10-01-10, 22:59
Not gonna provide a link to back up your claim? Ok then.

Err, yes I did.

Do you even know anything about this war?

First of all, it is not a war between countries. Don't believe me? Look it up. We are fighting on the side of the Afghans against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. We've been doing so for many years. Please, go and read up a bit about this war and then we can debate.

I honestly don't know where you got the idea from that we're fighting the country.
Do i really need to provide a link, google it and hundreds of links will come up that's how it works. There are way to many small and big articles on it i wouldn't know which one to give you.

Come on you know what i mean with the countries thing, it has generally become a war between certain countries. There is no need to question something like that.

Mad Tony
10-01-10, 23:02
Do i really need to provide a link, google it and hundreds of links will come up that's how it works. There are way to many small and big articles on it i wouldn't know which one to give you.

Come on you know what i mean with the countries thing, it has generally become a war between countries. There is no need to question something like that.You were the one who made the claim.

Actually, I didn't. Wars between countries are almost a thing of the past in today's world. We're not fighting Afghanistan. As I said, we're fighting with them. We're helping to train their police force and their army. Both us and the Afghan government are fighting the same enemy - the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. This war is very different from previous wars. It's not as straightforward as WWII where it was just a case of killing or capturing the guy in the German uniform.

Here's something to read up on if you have the time. I think it would be beneficial to you, as you are clearly not very informed about this war to actually get into a proper discussion about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29

Notice how it has the US/UK on the same side as Afghanistan?

trXD
10-01-10, 23:06
You were the one who made the claim.

Actually, I didn't. Wars between countries are almost a thing of the past in today's world. We're not fighting Afghanistan. As I said, we're fighting with them. We're helping to train their police force and their army. Both us and the Afghan government are fighting the same enemy - the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

Here's something to read up on if you have the time. I think it would be beneficial to you, as you are clearly not very informed about this war to actually get into a proper discussion about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29

Notice how it has the US/UK on the same side as Afghanistan?

Oh for god sake i already explained myself, why did you just completely disregard what i said? I could repeat myself but...

My point is this isn't a war between good and evil, so don't act like it is just because you happen to be on one side.

Mad Tony
10-01-10, 23:08
Oh for god sake i already explained myself, why did you just completely disregard what i said? I could repeat myself but...

My point is this isn't a war between good and evil, so don't act like it is just because you happen to be on one side.Fine, don't explain your point. Just a quick word of advice though - people often wont take you seriously if you make a claim like that without backing it up with evidence.

It kind of is. The people we are fighting out there right now are the ones who stone homosexuals to death, beat women and closer to home, blow civilians up on buses.

Please read the link though. It's good to have an understanding of current affairs.

trXD
10-01-10, 23:11
If you aren't even going to read what im saying then fine, i don't care about this discussion anymore. I cant be bothered with something that pointless.

Mad Tony
10-01-10, 23:15
If you aren't even going to read what im saying then fine, i don't care about this discussion anymore. I cant be bothered with something that pointless.It's your own fault for not backing up your claims. :)

More advice: Read up on something (e.g. this war) before commenting on it.

Anyway, I didn't make this thread to debate on the war itself. I was mainly sharing the good news. Instead I have you breathing down my back putting words into my mouth that were never there and making ridiculous claims.

TRfan23
10-01-10, 23:49
Here's something to read up on if you have the time. I think it would be beneficial to you, as you are clearly not very informed about this war to actually get into a proper discussion about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29

Notice how it has the US/UK on the same side as Afghanistan?

Well that post wasn't a complete waste as you may assume, though I knew the war was to eradicate the Al-Quida & the Taliban Regime, that gave me a better insight and understanding of the war :hug:

So tbh I agree with this news :tmb:

Edit - Embarrassingly I used to think Afghanistan awhile ago was in England :o I'm terrible at geography.

T-Sex
11-01-10, 07:50
That group is all talk, luckily. Its amazing theyve gotten so well known, considering theyve fortunately not done anything.

I looked through some articles on their site a while ago, i remember they said they were going to melt the bronze lions down to make ammo for a war with france :vlol:

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 12:24
That group is all talk, luckily. Its amazing theyve gotten so well known, considering theyve fortunately not done anything.

I looked through some articles on their site a while ago, i remember they said they were going to melt the bronze lions down to make ammo for a war with france :vlol:Their motto is "Go forth and proclaim Islam whether the disbelievers like it or not". So in other words, go around preaching fundamental Islam to people. Nice... These people don't just give normal Muslims a bad name, they pretty much give all religious people a bad reputation. I've seen militant atheists use extremist groups like this as an argument against religion in the past

I'd like to see the government slap these nuts with prison sentences, whether they like it or not.

Alex Shepherd
11-01-10, 13:26
I thought its very important thread to read... But now it turned REALLY pointless, I need to shut up and not say a word... I have just wasted my time and thanks to Islamaphobic...

Raider Man

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 13:54
I thought its very important thread to read... But now it turned REALLY pointless, I need to shut up and not say a word... I have just wasted my time and thanks to Islamaphobic...

Raider ManHow am I being Islamophobic? I don't know if you've bothered to read my posts in this thread at all but I've separated the extremists from the normal Muslims at least 3 times. I explicitly said how this extremist organization (Islam4UK) only gives the rest of the moderate Muslims in this country a bad name. Now how is that Islamophobic?

Alex Shepherd
11-01-10, 17:39
There is nothing such a normal Muslim or abnormal Muslim or bla bla bla...
It is only one word "Muslim"

So you have to be careful in choosing the Terrorists as Muslims... Because terrorists come from ALL KIND OF Religion except for Hindu... SINCE our MOTTO Mister Mad Tony is "Terrrorists don't have religion... If you want to throw up in a fire of hell forever? Just be it"

Anyway... IF they canceled the terrorists attacks... Why are you discussing about it... Nobody really cares... We have more important things to think about in our world than the imagination Terrorists...

Raider Man

larson n natla
11-01-10, 17:48
I am glad they canceled and to be honest I am shocked that any one would consider this, regardless of how somebody dies their death should be given respect but I do not think this was in anyway appropriate.

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 17:51
There is nothing such a normal Muslim or abnormal Muslim or bla bla bla...
It is only one word "Muslim"

So you have to be careful in choosing the Terrorists as Muslims... Because terrorists come from ALL KIND OF Religion except for Hindu... SINCE our MOTTO Mister Mad Tony is "Terrrorists don't have religion... If you want to throw up in a fire of hell forever? Just be it"

Anyway... IF they canceled the terrorists attacks... Why are you discussing about it... Nobody really cares... We have more important things to think about in our world than the imagination Terrorists...

Raider ManOk, that post was pretty confusing, but I will do my best effort to respond to what I could understand.

There are normal muslims. These are the majority of Muslims. These people are the ones who are followers of Islam but don't go around blowing themselves up in the name of "Allah" and don't hold extreme ideals.

Then you have the fundamental or extremist Muslims. These are the kind of people who are responsible for terror attacks like 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid train bombing. These people hold radical and extreme views. The organization "Islam4UK" are a good example of Islamic extremists.

So yeah, I have no idea where you got the idea that I was somehow labeling all Muslims as terrorists. Also, I never said that there are only Muslim terrorists.

Read the article (or just the thread title). It was not a planned terrorist attack (wtf?) but a planned protest against the war in Afghanistan. I've already explained why it's good that this particular protest did not go ahead.

Don't care? Don't post.

jackles
11-01-10, 17:51
IMO.


In this case the muslim group was being provocative towards those mourning their dead. They knew full well that the reaction amongst the public would be a negative one and that there could easily be a backlash against moderate muslims.



What would be the reaction if a group of soldiers held a rally at a mosque saying to repent and become christians? There would be an an outcry.


We have free speech here but deliberately provoking people at a time of grief and pain is wrong. (reminds me of the westboro group)

Dark Lugia 2
11-01-10, 18:54
Good that the rallys been banned/canceled. Disrespectful and uneducated people.

Though I dont like them or terrorists being called 'fundamental Muslims' or 'extremeist Muslims'. A Muslim that causes terror like this or those very few individuals that use bombs to kill/cause harm or what have you shouldnt be regarded as proper Muslims at all. They are are merely using religion as an excuse - and are in no way 'fundamental Muslims' (in the sense that a muslim practices fundamental factors to Islam i.e. praying, fasting, living a peacefull life, etc).

Naming these terrorists as 'fundamental Muslims' or 'extreme Muslims' just gives people the idea that Islam teaches such acts, and that most Muslims arent as 'extreme' or 'fundamental', when such acts are not preached by Islam at all, if you get what I mean.

And as for the majority of Muslims in the UK having a bad image... that happened aaages ago, and the view is still here, unfortunately.

x2crazyidiot
11-01-10, 19:30
VERY happy about this. I personally found it beyond petty, and it's just attracting negativity towards the Islamic community, which is really not a good thing to happen in such a tense time

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 19:55
Good that the rallys been banned/canceled. Disrespectful and uneducated people.

Though I dont like them or terrorists being called 'fundamental Muslims' or 'extremeist Muslims'. A Muslim that causes terror like this or those very few individuals that use bombs to kill/cause harm or what have you shouldnt be regarded as proper Muslims at all. They are are merely using religion as an excuse - and are in no way 'fundamental Muslims' (in the sense that a muslim practices fundamental factors to Islam i.e. praying, fasting, living a peacefull life, etc).

Naming these terrorists as 'fundamental Muslims' or 'extreme Muslims' just gives people the idea that Islam teaches such acts, and that most Muslims arent as 'extreme' or 'fundamental', when such acts are not preached by Islam at all, if you get what I mean.

And as for the majority of Muslims in the UK having a bad image... that happened aaages ago, and the view is still here, unfortunately.You do indeed have a good point about the term fundamental, but they are still extremist Muslims. You can't deny it. Yes, it may cause some people to resent Muslims as a whole but the term extremist helps to act as a barrier - it shows people that these particular Muslims are far different from your average one.

Forwen
11-01-10, 19:58
A "backlash against the Muslim community" would be very much in their interest (though hardly any "backlashes" are ever forthcoming), so this is a strange decision.

Silly geese :tmb:

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 19:59
A "backlash against the Muslim community" would be very much in their interest (though hardly any "backlashes" are ever forthcoming), so this is a strange decision.

Silly geese :tmb:Why?

Forwen
11-01-10, 20:05
Because when people develop a siege mentality they're more prone to extremism, or isolationism, or giving support to those who claim they will "protect" them.

Dark Lugia 2
11-01-10, 20:11
You do indeed have a good point about the term fundamental, but they are still extremist Muslims. You can't deny it. Yes, it may cause some people to resent Muslims as a whole but the term extremist helps to act as a barrier - it shows people that these particular Muslims are far different from your average one.

Im confused sorry :p How so? extreme Muslims as in they are extreme in their actions and happen to be part of the religion, or extreme as in going to extreme lengths to follow their religon? With terrorists, the latter cant apply (because Islam doesnt preach such acts) I'm not even religious, either

Imo people shouldnt have a term to tell that... it shows how ignorance people are tbh, which is quite sad. :/ Muslims have been around for so long and when recent bombings happen people are so quick to judge, youd have thought thered be more understanding today.

Sorry for the off topicness ive started. :o

Beans-Bot
11-01-10, 22:11
I'm just going to say that both sides are "murderous scum" and that classifying the war as "Good v. Evil" is flawed, seeing as there is no "Good" side in warfare. It's a completely barbaric act and it dehumanizes people on both sides. I was just implying that the other side should get some recognition [not respect necessarily] because they were murdered just as our troops were murdered. They are human too, as hard as that is to swallow. Their opinions may have been wrong, but everyone has the right to life and murder is always ultimately wrong. So. :)

I'm done. :p

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 22:27
Im confused sorry :p How so? extreme Muslims as in they are extreme in their actions and happen to be part of the religion, or extreme as in going to extreme lengths to follow their religon? With terrorists, the latter cant apply (because Islam doesnt preach such acts) I'm not even religious, either

Imo people shouldnt have a term to tell that... it shows how ignorance people are tbh, which is quite sad. :/ Muslims have been around for so long and when recent bombings happen people are so quick to judge, youd have thought thered be more understanding today.

Sorry for the off topicness ive started. :oBoth.

Ignorance is generalizing all Muslims as terrorists. Simply calling the extremists out for what they are is not however. You need to give the details. Just "extremist" is way too vague.

I'm just going to say that both sides are "murderous scum" and that classifying the war as "Good v. Evil" is flawed, seeing as there is no "Good" side in warfare. It's a completely barbaric act and it dehumanizes people on both sides. I was just implying that the other side should get some recognition [not respect necessarily] because they were murdered just as our troops were murdered. They are human too, as hard as that is to swallow. Their opinions may have been wrong, but everyone has the right to life and murder is always ultimately wrong. So. :)

I'm done. :pPlease read up on the war before calling the soldiers serving out there murderous scum. I get the impression you think it's just all out warfare where both sides shoot each other on sight. It's not. While the people we're fighting may do this, we certainly don't. The military have strict rules of engagement. Really strict.

Yeah, murder is always wrong, but what our soldiers are doing isn't murder.

Jeez, does anybody actually support our troops here? =/

Beans-Bot
11-01-10, 22:45
They take a gun and, with intent to kill [more often than not], blow somebody's brains out. That's a pretty good definition of murder for me. Just because they shot first doesn't mean it's not murder. Manslaughter, maybe, but you're still taking a human life fully knowing what you're doing.

Jeez, does anybody actually support our troops here? =/

It would appear not. :p I certainly don't, as I've made very clear on multiple occasions.

TRfan23
11-01-10, 22:47
Jeez, does anybody actually support our troops here? =/

Unfortunately no, seems like everyones a bunch of sissy's. They don't even seem to understand what the war's about.

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 22:56
They take a gun and, with intent to kill [more often than not], blow somebody's brains out. That's a pretty good definition of murder for me. Just because they shot first doesn't mean it's not murder. Manslaughter, maybe, but you're still taking a human life fully knowing what you're doing.Again, please actually read up on the war. As I said, they have strict rules of engagement and they don't normally go straight for the head.

It appears to me as if the one of the big problems here is lack of knowledge of the war and the soldiers fighting in it.

It would appear not. :p I certainly don't, as I've made very clear on multiple occasions.You can still support the troops without actually supporting what they're fighting for.

So are you saying you don't support the actual people fighting in this war who are putting their neck on the line for this country?

Reggie
11-01-10, 23:00
To be honest, I just feel apathy these days. If speak out against the war it doesn't change the reality of things and I can't say I've ever supported the war and if I haven't supported the war, 'supporting the troops' becomes an empty notion because if a troop 'I support you but not what you fight for', they probably wouldn't appreciate that would they?

Mad Tony
11-01-10, 23:01
To be honest, I just feel apathy these days. If speak out against the war it doesn't change the reality of things and I can't say I've ever supported the war and if I haven't supported the war, 'supporting the troops' becomes an empty notion because if a troop 'I support you but not what you fight for', they probably wouldn't appreciate that would they?Yeah, but it's a lot nicer than not supporting them at all. There really is no reason not to support the troops. They're just people doing a job.

Reggie
11-01-10, 23:04
Yeah, but it's a lot nicer than not supporting them at all. There really is no reason not to support the troops. They're just people doing a job.
True.

Forwen
11-01-10, 23:12
I generally respect a soldier's profession.

Alex Shepherd
12-01-10, 04:13
Ok, that post was pretty confusing, but I will do my best effort to respond to what I could understand.

There are normal muslims. These are the majority of Muslims. These people are the ones who are followers of Islam but don't go around blowing themselves up in the name of "Allah" and don't hold extreme ideals.

Then you have the fundamental or extremist Muslims. These are the kind of people who are responsible for terror attacks like 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid train bombing. These people hold radical and extreme views. The organization "Islam4UK" are a good example of Islamic extremists.

So yeah, I have no idea where you got the idea that I was somehow labeling all Muslims as terrorists. Also, I never said that there are only Muslim terrorists.

Read the article (or just the thread title). It was not a planned terrorist attack (wtf?) but a planned protest against the war in Afghanistan. I've already explained why it's good that this particular protest did not go ahead.

Don't care? Don't post.

The information had been already known by the american government and they knew the flights before of the attacks 9/11 so why they didn't stop it? ;) You have to know who is also responsible for this Mister Mad Tony...
The world is more stranger than you think...

No Muslims have to kill himself for God as a sacrifice... Go grab the main book of the Holly Qura'an and then start bumbling... "Suicide is band from Muslim's religion" for 1000000 times and hope you'll understand now... But those terrorists attacks is because of the deeply religious, the result from the Iraq wars and Palastine, America versus Iraq for oil, and Israil Versus Palastine for Land, so they start to make terrorists attacks as a punishement...

Raider Man

Kittypower
12-01-10, 05:34
The information had been already known by the american government and they knew the flights before of the attacks 9/11 so why they didn't stop it? ;) You have to know who is also responsible for this Mister Mad Tony...
The world is more stranger than you think...

No Muslims have to kill himself for God as a sacrifice... Go grab the main book of the Holly Qura'an and then start bumbling... "Suicide is band from Muslim's religion" for 1000000 times and hope you'll understand now... But those terrorists attacks is because of the deeply religious, the result from the Iraq wars and Palastine, America versus Iraq for oil, and Israil Versus Palastine for Land, so they start to make terrorists attacks as a punishement...

Raider Man

Arent we the conspiracy theorist.

Alex Shepherd
12-01-10, 05:53
IT IS a theory when we both don't agree about the truth

Thank you...

Raider Man

Flipper1987
12-01-10, 08:47
The information had been already known by the american government and they knew the flights before of the attacks 9/11 so why they didn't stop it? ;)

What a complete and total load of crap. I mean really! This type of intellectual tripe doesn't deserve the dignity of a response.

The world is more stranger than you think...

Indeed...you and other hate-filled "9/11 Truthers" prove this.

FLIPPER

Flipper1987
12-01-10, 09:05
I'm just going to say that both sides are "murderous scum" and that classifying the war as "Good v. Evil" is flawed, seeing as there is no "Good" side in warfare.

Your ignorance of past wars, especially during the 20th century is breath-taking.

So, during World War II, the Allied troops who fought against the brutal, totalitarian states of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan were "murderous scum," as you put it? You wouldn't portray the Axis leadership as "evil?" You must have had a crappy history teacher (that is if you paid attention).

It's (war) a completely barbaric act and it dehumanizes people on both sides.

Uh yeah...for those who start a war with the intent of global domination...it is barbaric. But what about those countries that defend themselves? Are they "dehumanized" as well? Or should they bend over and do nothing when attacked? Was Poland wrong to resist the Nazi blitzkrieg? Were the Chinese & Filipinos wrong to resist the Japanese invasion in 1937 & 1941 respectively?

I was just implying that the other side should get some recognition [not respect necessarily] because they were murdered just as our troops were murdered.

I see...how recently have you held a ceremony commemorating the Nazis that died during WW2?

They are human too, as hard as that is to swallow.

With all due respect, that is not hard to swallow. The fact that certain enemies in the past & the present are/were evil and you think that they aren't/weren't is "hard to swallow."

I'm done. :p

Yeah, you really are. I mean your credibility is.

FLIPPER

disneyprincess20
12-01-10, 10:12
I'm glad they've cancelled the march. I hope they listened to the voice of reason put out by non-extremeist muslims (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Farooq-Siddique-Islam4UK-does-represent-Muslims-Bristol-area/article-1674144-detail/article.html).

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 13:55
The information had been already known by the american government and they knew the flights before of the attacks 9/11 so why they didn't stop it? ;) You have to know who is also responsible for this Mister Mad Tony...
The world is more stranger than you think...

No Muslims have to kill himself for God as a sacrifice... Go grab the main book of the Holly Qura'an and then start bumbling... "Suicide is band from Muslim's religion" for 1000000 times and hope you'll understand now... But those terrorists attacks is because of the deeply religious, the result from the Iraq wars and Palastine, America versus Iraq for oil, and Israil Versus Palastine for Land, so they start to make terrorists attacks as a punishement...

Raider ManThey knew about Bin Laden beforehand and they made several attempts to kill him. However, these were unsuccessful due to him constantly moving around. They did however have no knowledge of the attacks beforehand. That is a crazy conspiracy and one that has been debunked many times. At that time NORAD was equipped to deal with attacks from over seas, not ones from inside North America. This is why the fighter jets scrambled to intercept the planes didn't reach them in time.

Do you actually have any proof to support your claim? If not, I'd suggest you shut up.

I know it may be hard for you to accept the fact that 19 of your fellow Muslims were responsible for this, but you have to learn to accept it. And yes, I know that those 19 men were extremists and do certainly not represent Muslims as a whole.

And I never said Muslims had to kill themselves for God.

So 9/11 happened because of the Iraq war, even though the Iraq war happened after 9/11? Seriously, do you ever talk any sense?

@FLIPPER: Well said :tmb:

Oh, and Islam4UK has now been banned! :yah:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453560.stm

Alex Shepherd
12-01-10, 14:02
What a complete and total load of crap. I mean really! This type of intellectual tripe doesn't deserve the dignity of a response.



Indeed...you and other hate-filled "9/11 Truthers" prove this.

FLIPPER

:vlol: :vlol:

They knew about Bin Laden beforehand and they made several attempts to kill him. However, these were unsuccessful due to him constantly moving around. They did however have no knowledge of the attacks beforehand. That is a crazy conspiracy and one that has been debunked many times. At that time NORAD was equipped to deal with attacks from over seas, not ones from inside North America. This is why the fighter jets scrambled to intercept the planes didn't reach them in time.

Do you actually have any proof to support your claim? If not, I'd suggest you shut up.

I know it may be hard for you to accept the fact that 19 of your fellow Muslims were responsible for this, but you have to learn to accept it. And yes, I know that those 19 men were extremists and do certainly not represent Muslims as a whole.

And I never said Muslims had to kill themselves for God.

So 9/11 happened because of the Iraq war, even though the Iraq war happened after 9/11? Seriously, do you ever talk any sense?

@FLIPPER: Well said :tmb:

Oh, and Islam4UK has now been banned! :yah:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453560.stm

First of all!! I am crying... I am so crying and can't sleep at midnight for thinking about this... :(:(:( now there is a sea of my tears and I am drawning if anyone please just help me...

Second of all... It is called a Secret Politics that you will never know between George Bush and Bin Laden ;) but sorry to embarress you about this :) They are not Muslims :) because Bin Laden also killed Muslims... :) :) He is wanted everywhere now, I wish you have a smart brain and geow a little bit little kid...

Raider Man

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 14:07
:vlol: :vlol:



First of all!! I am crying... I am so crying and can't sleep at midnight for thinking about this... :(:(:( now there is a sea of my tears and I am drawning if anyone please just help me...

Second of all... It is called a Secret Politics that you will never know between George Bush and Bin Laden ;) but sorry to embarress you about this :) They are not Muslims :) because Bin Laden also killed Muslims... :) :) He is wanted everywhere now, I wish you have a smart brain and geow a little bit little kid...

Raider ManOk... err, have fun.

Secret politics eh? I'd like to see some links if you don't mind.

Get a smart brain? At least I can compose a comprehensible sentence and don't make ridiculous claims without providing evidence.

Alex Shepherd
12-01-10, 14:36
Ok... err, have fun.

Secret politics eh? I'd like to see some links if you don't mind.

Get a smart brain? At least I can compose a comprehensible sentence and don't make ridiculous claims without providing evidence.

Comprehensible sentence dont have anything to do with smart brain clever boy, but at least its not my specific language... Say this to someone who is English clever boy... As for your claims, they are full of bull-****...

Raider Man

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 14:41
Comprehensible sentence dont have anything to do with smart brain clever boy, but at least its not my specific language... Say this to someone who is English clever boy... As for your claims, they are full of bull-****...

Raider ManAgain, for the third time, do you actually have any evidence?

Orionvalentine
12-01-10, 15:07
Not to incite a flame war aimed my way, I have to say something. Every time I see something relating to the war, Muslims or terrorists I see Mad Tony pressing his opinion. I think the whole forum know the way you feel by now, there's no need to carry on the way you do. It's just so, extreme. You need to stop insulting other members and get off the soap box before you dig a very deep hole for yourself.

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 15:15
Not to incite a flame war aimed my way, I have to say something. Every time I see something relating to the war, Muslims or terrorists I see Mad Tony pressing his opinion. I think the whole forum know the way you feel by now, there's no need to carry on the way you do. It's just so, extreme. You need to stop insulting other members and get off the soap box before you dig a very deep hole for yourself.What? When it comes to Muslims I don't really have an opinion on them. I'm not a Muslim myself but I have no problem with the majority of Muslims who are normal and not extreme. Terrorists of course I strongly disapprove of but it's not like I "press my opinion", nor do I insult other members. Normally I'm the one getting insulted. I either get flamed for being a conservative or even worse, I get flamed for simply taking an interest in politics and current affairs.

I go on about British politics and how much I hate Brown and Labour a lot I'll give you that, but I don't make many threads about the war. I really do not see what is so unreasonable or extreme about being happy that an extremist group canceled their plans to "protest" at the site where dead soldiers are brought home.

Orionvalentine
12-01-10, 15:26
Look, the way I see it is most of the time there's a topic about something like this and it's just a matter of time before your first message pops up. The thing about politics and war is that whatever you have an opinion on it won't change the way things are. I'm all for opinions, but not having them jammed down my throat. Maybe try being more rational and less emotionally charged, you may get your point across the proper way.

(Also I recall you telling somebody to shut up in this thread, if that's not rude then what is?)

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 15:31
Look, the way I see it is most of the time there's a topic about something like this and it's just a matter of time before your first message pops up. The thing about politics and war is that whatever you have an opinion on it won't change the way things are. I'm all for opinions, but not having them jammed down my throat. Maybe try being more rational and less emotionally charged, you may get your point across the proper way.

(Also I recall you telling somebody to shut up in this thread, if that's not rude then what is?)And me commenting on a lot of political threads is bad why? This is what I mean by people flaming me simply for having an interest in politics.

Yeah, shoving your opinion down other people's throats is stupid - that's why I don't it. :)

Where did you get the idea that my posts are "irrational and emotionally charged"? They most certainly are not.

Kind of. I told him that if he's not wiling to provide any evidence to back up his claims then he might as well shut up. To be fair, Alex Shepherd was being very rude to me also. I wonder why you have chosen to highlight my rudeness but not his.

Orionvalentine
12-01-10, 15:39
Ok, I apologize for just picking up on your rudeness when there was more being flung around by others.

It takes emotion to be so vocal about politics, and you said yourself that you bang on about Gordon Brown an awful lot, hence being emotionally charged. I figure that in matters in the context of this thread are the same. Like I said, a lot of people know how you feel on the matter, if you would think a little more before you posted situations won't get as ugly as it has been in this particular thread. The same goes for others also, opinions are good but please think more before posting.

Punaxe
12-01-10, 15:42
On what grounds and for what acts exactly is Islam4UK being banned? The article didn't mention any specifics.

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 15:47
Ok, I apologize for just picking up on your rudeness when there was more being flung around by others.

It takes emotion to be so vocal about politics, and you said yourself that you bang on about Gordon Brown an awful lot, hence being emotionally charged. I figure that in matters in the context of this thread are the same. Like I said, a lot of people know how you feel on the matter, if you would think a little more before you posted situations won't get as ugly as it has been in this particular thread. The same goes for others also, opinions are good but please think more before posting.I have strong opinions, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're emotionally charged. I don't understand, what exactly do you mean? I specifically stated that these particular Muslims in Islam4UK are different from your normal reasonable Muslim.

On what grounds and for what acts exactly is Islam4UK being banned? The article didn't mention any specifics.I think it's because they promote terrorism, which is a breach of the terrorism act of 2000.

Punaxe
12-01-10, 15:49
(...) I think it's because they promote terrorism, which is a breach of the terrorism act of 2000.

Yeah, I considered that to be not very specific. How exactly did they do this?

Dark Lugia 2
12-01-10, 15:49
I'll say it again, terrorists are not extreme muslims. They use religion as an excuse.

This is making me sick tbh. -_- Terrosists are extreme sinners to the Muslim community and always will be. Muslims accept that there are terrosists that call themselfs Muslim - they are seen as major sinners.

How do people interpret the term 'extremist Muslim' anyway? I see it as people thinking Islam preaches such views - but only a few people go to extreme lengths to carry them out. Which is false as Islam doesnt preach such things.

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 16:11
Yeah, I considered that to be not very specific. How exactly did they do this?I'm not too sure exactly. I'll see if Sky News has any better info.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Wootton-Bassett-Government-Bans-Radical-Islamist-Group-Al-Muhajiroun-And-Others/Article/201001215519644?lpos=UK_News_First_UK_News_Article _Teaser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15519644_Wootton_Bassett%3A_Government _Bans_Radical_Islamist_Group_Al_Muhajiroun_And_Oth ers

I'll say it again, terrorists are not extreme muslims. They use religion as an excuse.

This is making me sick tbh. -_- Terrosists are extreme sinners to the Muslim community and always will be. Muslims accept that there are terrosists that call themselfs Muslim - they are seen as major sinners.

How do people interpret the term 'extremist Muslim' anyway? I see it as people thinking Islam preaches such views - but only a few people go to extreme lengths to carry them out. Which is false as Islam doesnt preach such things.Not all terrorists are extreme Muslims - yes, I know. And yes, I also know that they use religion as an excuse.

Extreme or radical Muslims are the people who follow it to the letter. They take things like "9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)" literally. It is also a way of identifying them. If you just say "extremist" people are going to wonder what kind of extremist.

TRhalloween
12-01-10, 16:45
IT IS a theory when we both don't agree about the truth

Thank you...

Raider Man

I wasn't paying attention to this discussion because it's boring but in general they call that denial or being wrong or whatever, not a theory.

Forwen
12-01-10, 18:42
The thing about politics and war is that whatever you have an opinion on it won't change the way things are. I'm all for opinions, but not having them jammed down my throat.

So you see a clearly political thread, created by Mad Tony, deliberately go in there, address MT first and then, when he replies, cry he jams his opinions down your throat? :)

On what grounds and for what acts exactly is Islam4UK being banned? The article didn't mention any specifics.

Apparently the counter-terrorism office considered it another reboot/splinter group of al-Muajiroon, which is banned for "glorification of terrorism" http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/legislation/current-legislation/terrorism-act-2000/proscribed-groups.html

SamReeves
12-01-10, 19:26
So you see a clearly political thread, created by Mad Tony, deliberately go in there, address MT first and then, when he replies, cry he jams his opinions down your throat? :)l[/url]

Hmm, I remember lots of previous anti-Bush threads here with the same working principles!

raiderfun
12-01-10, 21:53
My God ! First, he creates this pointless thread, then shows eagerness for a serious matter...



Oh, and Islam4UK has now been banned! :yah:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453560.stm

And what's more...

What? When it comes to Muslims I don't really have an opinion on them. I'm not a Muslim myself but I have no problem with the majority of Muslims who are normal and not extreme. Terrorists of course I strongly disapprove of but it's not like I "press my opinion", nor do I insult other members. Normally I'm the one getting insulted. I either get flamed for being a conservative or even worse, I get flamed for simply taking an interest in politics and current affairs.

I go on about British politics and how much I hate Brown and Labour a lot I'll give you that, but I don't make many threads about the war. I really do not see what is so unreasonable or extreme about being happy that an extremist group canceled their plans to "protest" at the site where dead soldiers are brought home.

Sounds so true...

Seriously ! :pi:

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 21:59
My God ! First, he creates this pointless thread, then shows eagerness for a serious matter...If it's so pointless then why are you posting in it?

raiderfun
12-01-10, 22:01
If it's so pointless then why are you posting in it?

Because I am utterly upset and horrified...

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 22:04
Because I am utterly upset and horrified...By what exactly? My condemnation of a terrorist organization?

raiderfun
12-01-10, 22:08
By what exactly? My condemnation of a terrorist organization?

You do exactly know what I am talking about, your continuous games are not funny anymore. And I am serious.

I so wished you'd change someday, but it seems like time doesn't want this.

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 22:09
You do exactly know what I am talking about, your continuous games are not funny anymore. And I am serious.No Badr, I really don't. Seriously, please explain. Do it on here or by PM I don't care, but just explain it.

TRfan23
12-01-10, 22:15
Because I am utterly upset and horrified...

Islam4UK is a good example of a group who abuse the Islamic faith ;) MT's basically saying that they are supporting the Taliban. As they're saying stop the war, thus would mean that the Taliban will be able to carry on the abuse they do in Afghanistan, to woman... ;)

*Changes Keyboard Settings*

هسمشة4عن هس ش لخخي ثءشةحمث خب ش لقخعح صاخ شلاعسث فاث هسمشةهؤ بشهفاز ةفطس لاشسهؤشممغ سشغهىل فاشف فاثغ شقث سعححخقفهىل فاث فشمهلاشىز شس فاثغطقث سشغهىل سفخح فاث صشقو فاعس صخعمي ةثشى فاشف فاث فشمهلاشى صهمم لاث شلامث فخ ؤشققغ خى فاث شلاعسث فاثغ يخ هى شبلاشىهسفشىو فخ صخةشىززز

I hope I wrote that above correct :o

Mokono
12-01-10, 22:36
Extreme or radical Muslims are the people who follow it to the letter. They take things like "9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)" literally. It is also a way of identifying them. If you just say "extremist" people are going to wonder what kind of extremist.

As far as i'm concerned your description of a radical/extreme Muslim is not accurate either, first of all, because being attached to the scriptures is not being extreme, it's being Orthodox, and Orthodoxy applies in most religions, and also philosophical currents. If the case was that they were really attached to the scriptures, they wouldn't support suicide bombings, because suicide itself is condemned by the Q'ran. Just because someone whose reliability is beyond the ground level says that "Terrorism uses religion as an excuse", doesn't mean it's another product of it's cheap ignorance, at least in this case, it's true. On a similar fashion, I have noticed that the "extreme" Christians groups are held within busniess-like ties, and actually profit of their propaganda and their false preaching. They sell themselves as independent branchs that oppose to the Catholics excusing themselves in a disagreement that is terribly anachronic.

raiderfun
12-01-10, 22:36
No Badr, I really don't. Seriously, please explain. Do it on here or by PM I don't care, but just explain it.

:(

Islam4UK is a good example of a group who abuse the Islamic faith ;) MT's basically saying that they are supporting the Taliban. As they're saying stop the war, thus would mean that the Taliban will be able to carry on the abuse they do in Afghanistan, to woman... ;)

*Changes Keyboard Settings*

هسمشة4عن هس ش لخخي ثءشةحمث خب ش لقخعح صاخ شلاعسث فاث هسمشةهؤ بشهفاز ةفطس لاشسهؤشممغ سشغهىل فاشف فاثغ شقث سعححخقفهىل فاث فشمهلاشىز شس فاثغطقث سشغهىل سفخح فاث صشقو فاعس صخعمي ةثشى فاشف فاث فشمهلاشى صهمم لاث شلامث فخ ؤشققغ خى فاث شلاعسث فاثغ يخ هى شبلاشىهسفشىو فخ صخةشىززز

I hope I wrote that above correct :o

It's not that, in fact, I am against the founder of this channel, someone who supported 9/11 terrorists and all, I am all the way opposed to terrorism and violence, obviously...My point is that Mad Tony comes every time with a Pro-war, pro-terrorism, pro-religious, pro-extremism/lobby/propaganda thread, sharing his way too "biased" emotion and pushing it, and that is going beyond the bounds. Why don't they impose strict conditions and restrictions on this channel for instance rather than banning it ? However, I did agree with the founder that the ban is somehow against democracy concept.

BTW, I didn't understand a word in Arabic, everything seems false sorry :D and you'd better not post anything except english on the board :)

As far as i'm concerned your description of a radical/extreme Muslim is not accurate either, first of all, because being attached to the scriptures is not being extreme, it's being Orthodox, and Orthodoxy applies in most religions, and also philosophical currents. If the case was that they were really attached to the scriptures, they wouldn't support suicide bombings, because suicide itself is condemned by the Q'ran. Just because someone whose reliability is beyond the ground level says that "Terrorism uses religion as an excuse", doesn't mean it's another product of it's cheap ignorance, at least in this case, it's true. On a similar fashion, I have noticed that the "extreme" Christians groups are held within busniess-like ties, and actually profit of their propaganda and their false preaching. They sell themselves as independent branchs that oppose to the Catholics excusing themselves in a disagreement that is terribly anachronic.

My point yeah ! Nice post Mokono. First of all Islam is against suicide so we can never use religion as an excuse, don't confuse it with Jihad, because it's a diffeeeeeeeereeennnttt thing ;)

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 22:46
:(Hey, instead of posting faces can you actually explain things? I'm still confused. You seem to think I know what you're talking about. The sad thing is though that I really don't.

It's not that, in fact, I am against the founder of this channel, someone who supported 9/11 terrorists and all, I am all the way opposed to terrorism and violence, obviously...My point is that Mad Tony comes every time with a Pro-war, pro-terrorism, pro-religious, pro-extremism/lobby/propaganda thread, sharing his way too "biased" emotion and pushing it, and that is going beyond the bounds. Why don't they impose strict conditions and restrictions on this channel for instance rather than banning it ? However, I did agree with the founder that the ban is somehow against democracy concept.Wait, what? No, seriously, wtf? Since when did I support the 9/11 terrorists? I've been condemning them all throughout this thread! Or where you referring to the organization Islam4UK? Again, I'm confused. No offense but your grammar is so poor half the time I have no idea what you're talking about or what you mean.

I'm certainly not pro war, pro terrorism (again, wtf?) or pro extremism. Have you not been reading the thread?

Peaches122
12-01-10, 22:58
Hello, everyone! I'm new here. :) As you can see. Wow, there seems to be a lot of debate on this thread. Mad Tony, you seem very angry and spiteful. What's wrong?

T-Sex
12-01-10, 22:59
Hello, everyone! I'm new here. :) As you can see. Wow, there seems to be a lot of debate on this thread. Mad Tony, you seem very angry and spiteful. What's wrong?

Hi :)

And yeah, from what ive seen Mad Tony is just like that most of the time.


*Runs away*

Mad Tony
12-01-10, 23:00
Hi :)

And yeah, from what ive seen Mad Tony is just like that most of the time.


*Runs away*

Hello, everyone! I'm new here. :) As you can see. Wow, there seems to be a lot of debate on this thread. Mad Tony, you seem very angry and spiteful. What's wrong?What exactly makes both of you think this? :confused:

As you can see, I have used no angry faces nor have I insulted anyone.

T-Sex
12-01-10, 23:01
What exactly makes both of you think this? :confused:

As you can see, I have used no angry faces nor have I insulted anyone.

I was just kidding :D

Mona Sax
12-01-10, 23:02
As a civil conversation doesn't seem to be possible, we're done.