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Tyrannosaurus
30-04-10, 10:45
To continue my anti-Disney campaign, of course. A friend just forwarded this article to me:

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The Lion King
A short history of Disney-fascism
by Matt Roth

from Jump Cut, no. 40, March 1996, pp. 15-20
copyright Jump Cut: A Review of Contemporary Media, 1996, 2006

In this age of controversy over "children's entertainment," Disney Studios has maintained its status as purveyor of wholesome fun for the entire family — an amazing feat, considering the parade of death and gore that constitutes the average Disney feature. Disney's recent cash cow, THE LION KING, is no exception, imperiling its characters with all manner of blood-spattered mayhem and terrorizing impressionable youngsters with an emphatic display of the vaunted Disney "dark side" — that obsessive plumbing of horrors more real to children than death: parental loss, withdrawal of love, exile from family and friends, and blame for unintended acts of destruction.

But the emotional trauma that Disney tries its damnedest to induce in young children is only the spadework for the ugly principles it feels it must implant in each new generation. Although the film takes place in an imaginary jungle, THE LION KING really expounds the Law of the Schoolyard: only the strong and the beautiful triumph, and the powerless survive only by serving the strong. As Disney sees it, children must not only acknowledge the supremacy of those born privileged and violent, the children must love them. The young must gaze in hushed veneration at the princely predators who stand ready to harvest the labor and flesh of their subjects. They must learn to giggle at the hopeless scampering of weak and stubby creatures as they dodge the jaws of their overlords. They must accept that true friendship means flattering those who would otherwise feast on their entrails.

Unfortunately, Disney also presents a vision of adult society. The full contours of this vision are difficult to see. We have to look past the sheer brilliance of Disney animation — with its dramatic thunderstorms and kaleidoscopic musical numbers. More so than the last few Disney features, which specialized in fluid shifts of reality, THE LION KING impresses us with its naturalism: the sun rising over the African savanna, gazelles bounding through the morning mists, herds of stampeding wildebeest. We are amazed by the range of expression their lions' faces can achieve, and the fact that the animators can make a hyena look like Whoopi Goldberg.

To appreciate Disney's coherent social vision, we also have to get past THE LION KING's bizarre, rather incoherent story. We see a host of antelope and zebra reverently bow down before a Lion King who makes no bones about wanting to eat them. The King and his Queen seem a monogamous pair; however, no other breeding male is visible in the pride of many lionesses. Hyenas inhabit a dark, nether region; when their population spreads out, their wasteland, for no apparent reason, spreads with them. By the time we encounter a wise-cracking warthog-meerkat pair, whose vaudeville shtick revolves obsessively around fart jokes, we begin to wonder: what are the writers thinking?

To truly understand the vision THE LION KING requires delving back into the Disney tradition — past the countless scenes of ugly, perverse villains vanquished by strong and beautiful heroes; of boys initiated into manhood through shows of martial valor; of girls seeking fulfillment in the arms of conquering males; of parents menaced or killed outright, too weak to prevent their children from undergoing their respective rites of passage; and of lovable weaklings who never themselves attain the personhood into which they bumblingly usher the main characters — until we reach 1938, when Walt Disney's beliefs converged with an ideology that has since fallen into nominal disrepute.

The tradition that leads to THE LION KING begins with PINOCCHIO — arguably the most beautifully animated of the Disney classics, undoubtedly the creepiest. In this, Disney's second animated feature, the blurry outlines of the Disney tradition suddenly become coherent — as the evocation of an ideology which still dared speak its name in the late 1930s, its power and prestige goose-stepping proudly across the world stage to the dazzlement of at least one animator-tycoon.

In 1938, the year PINOCCHIO was in production, Uncle Walt regularly attended meetings of the American Nazi Party in Hollywood, where Mein Kampf sold like hotcakes at corner newsstands. It comes as no surprise that Nazism resonated with Disney: he shared its conceit of white supremacy, its antagonism towards independent organized labor, its abhorrence of urbanism, and, above all, its hatred of Jews. He regarded himself as a bastion of Protestant morality in an industry dominated by Jew-spawned frivolity and lewdness. This sense of mission was buttressed by more prosaic market concerns: Hitler, who also made the link between Hollywood and Jews, barred U.S. films from Germany, an act which gravely distressed Disney. History is thus unclear on whether in making PINOCCHIO, Disney was paying homage to the Nazis or simply pandering to them. (Fortunately, Hitler returned Disney's affection: his favorite song was "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf”; in 1937 Goebbels presented a birthday gift of 18 Mickey Mouse shorts to the Fόhrer.)

PINOCCHIO begins among the honest peasants of a pristine Alpine village. Pinocchio, created by the gentle watchsmith Geppetto and "given life" by a Hollywood starlet descending from her celestial orb, sets out on the path of good: to school, where he can presumably learn about his national culture. Unfortunately, his puppet nature, lacking a will of its own, allows him to be rather easily led astray, his Jiminy-Cricket conscience notwithstanding. The villains who divert him from the straight-and-narrow, appearing in order of escalating evil, are straight out of a fascist primer; their real-life analogs would all, under the Nazis, wear distinguishing patches on their clothes before being shipped to the concentration camps.

The first villain, The Fox, is mannered, effeminate, urbane and of the theater. His small, strangely elastic companion, The Cat, constantly slithers around him and through his legs. Clumsily, the two of them often become entwined with each other in a chaos of limbs. They are clearly gay. The Fox entices Pinocchio to the "theater," selling him to the evil Gypsy Stromboli, the most blatant ethnic stereotype in the movie. Stromboli, cashing in on his new stringless puppet, is greedy, dishonest, violent and inhumanly cruel — clearly of an inferior race. His presence also underscores PINOCCHIO's distinctly Old World landscape, where Gypsies ranked higher on the list of despised minorities than they did in America. Stromboli locks a frightened and weeping Pinocchio in a cage; the puppet escapes only with the help of the starlet. Unfortunately, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire for our poor hero.

The Fox traps him again, this time to sell him to the worst of the villains: a stout, cruel-visaged businessman, dealing from a shadowy corner of a restaurant on a dark and foggy city street — so greedy and evil that he scares even The Fox and The Cat. He is, in short, everything that a Nazi would expect of a Jew.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler explains the nefarious scheme of the Jews: they lure good, solid German men — artisans like Geppetto — into the city, to be corrupted by vice and Communism. Once degraded by these alien influences, the German worker is permanently enslaved. Accordingly, the Jew in PINOCCHIO lures little (gentile) boys to Pleasure Island, an amusement park where they can misbehave. The atmosphere is dark and crowded, dense and full of movement — in short, city-like. The urban vice is there: Pinocchio and a pugfaced boy hang out in a pool hall. The Communism is there: the main attraction is a mansion that the boys are allowed to demolish in an orgiastic attack on private property. The degradation follows: the boys, having made asses out themselves figuratively, become literal donkeys. Finally, their ultimate enslavement: the donkeys are put to hard labor in the mines. Pinocchio, at first on the road to a wholesome Aryanism, is ultimately at risk of falling into the debased proletariat. And all because of homosexuals, Gypsies, and Jews.

Pinocchio luckily comes to his senses and manages to escape with only a tail and floppy ears. Returning home, he finds that Geppetto has gone in search of him — the starlet informs him that the watchmaker is in the belly of a monstrous whale.

What follows is a sequence that appears repeatedly in Disney movies: a trial of masculine initiation in which the initiate exerts his will to overcome a seemingly overwhelming force, earning his right to enter a privileged sphere of male power (whether this means becoming a "real" boy, succeeding to the throne, or growing a big set of antlers). In PINOCCHIO, of course, this scenario is Nazi-inflected: Pinocchio rescues his father (the Fatherland?) from a leviathan (the international Jewish banking system?), exhibiting the appropriate virtues of endurance, courage, and self-sacrifice — all the traits of a good soldier.

PINOCCHIO's sexual politics follow this fascist lead: women quite literally inhabit a "separate sphere." Procreation is transformed into an act of male creativity, which women merely ratify with their mysterious ability to "give life." Women are also repositories of "morality," encouraging virtues like honesty (although even this becomes a test of masculine self-control: Pinocchio, denying his naughtiness, is betrayed by a growing, ever more erect and unconcealable nose; learning virtue and getting this unruly organ under control are the same task.) The ideal society of PINOCCHIO, as of the Nazis, is a disciplined, all male, warrior culture nurtured by idealized feminine domestics.

Ironically, PINOCCHIO's thick Continental ambiance and relentlessly fascist cosmology have allowed it to age better than most Disney classics. It steers clear of embarrassingly crude caricatures of American minorities (such as DUMBO's crows or PETER PAN's Indians). Obsessively focused on male initiation, it mercifully leaves girls alone (unlike CINDERELLA or SLEEPING BEAUTY). An epic of the volk, it is not, like 99% of the rest of Disney's oeuvre, preoccupied with the travails of royalty. Finally, it also spares us Uncle Walt's wish-fulfillment fantasies of ideal workers (unlike SNOW WHITE, in which happy dwarves sing, "Hi Ho," on their way to the mines — a vision recently given a service-industry update in BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, in which hospitality workers, transformed into household objects, sing "Be My Guest" in an orgasmic fulfillment of their biological need to serve.) Avoiding the hot buttons of concerned liberals and, of course, striking conservatives as ineffably wholesome, PINOCCHIO's 50th anniversary re-release met with no controversy.

That PINOCCHIO could, nonetheless, very well have served as a Hitler Youth training film is not simply a reflection of Uncle Walt's devotion to National Socialism. Rather, he and Hitler — as well as countless other corporate leaders, government planners, architects, cultural purveyors and social thinkers in Europe and the United States — shared an overall social vision. They dreamed of a dispersed post-urban society, with a population — kept in line by a strong domestic realm instilling a keen sense of blood loyalty and "family values" — that could be efficiently mobilized to serve either the military needs of the state or the labor needs of industry.

The chief obstacle to this utopia was the disordered realm of the cities — cauldrons of ethnic intermingling, voluntary associations (of unionists, bohemians, Communists, gays and feminists), and general squalor — which offended fascist sensibilities of order, cleanliness and efficiency. It is no coincidence that the ultimate villains of Hitler's world view were also seen as the most quintessentially urban: Jews, barred from agriculture, lived largely in cities; according to Hitler, urban squalor spread outward from their filthy ghettoes. The Nazis even used a distinctly urban fauna as their chief metaphor for Jews. Like rats, Jews were inescapably "adapted" to the city. To eliminate one meant eliminating the other.

Both Hitler's and Disney's anti-urbanism was expressed as back-to-nature primitivism. Their plans, however, were in no way backward-looking. Hitler envisioned a society requiring a great deal of lebensraum, organized around autobahns and Volkswagens and interspersed with centers of monumental national architecture and educational "castles" in which children would imbibe their national culture. In other words, suburbia dotted with Disneylands.

We are now at the other end of the suburban explosion that originated with visionaries like Hitler and Disney. And, sure enough, the suburban reality continues to nurture the fascist visions that created it. Fifty years after PINOCCHIO (with Nazism supposedly repudiated, and Uncle Walt long since preserved in cryonic slumber to await his resurrection) THE LION KING echoes all of its fascist themes: hatred of gays, communists, and minorities, and the glorification of violent male initiation and feminine domesticity — all set in a bucolic suburban environment under the strong leadership of an all-male state.

Above all, it speaks of the fear of cities. This time, however, the city is not a treacherous lure to simple rural folk, but an invading threat looming over the suburban paradise.

THE LION KING's inherent fascism is more frightening for its obsession with leadership. Disney's worship of one-man dictatorship, usually quaintly monarchist, is decidedly unrestrained in THE LION KING. The movie is bracketed by two elaborate sequences showing all the animals of the "kingdom" flocking to see the newborn heir to the throne: we are treated to labored pomp and ceremony, as birds soar through the mists and long rows of ungulates bow down to their devourer/king, all accompanied by portentous African-sounding music. We are meant to be as much in awe of the king's glory and power as the animators clearly are.

But pure spectacle does not suffice to get the message across to Disney's satisfaction. Mufasa, the king, spends half the movie impressing on his son, Simba, the duties and indispensability of the king, on whom the entire natural order seems to rest: in bland eco-speak, he explains that the king maintains "the delicate balance of nature." Unaccountably, this is eventually borne out. When the wrong king comes to power, the lush savanna becomes a wasteland from which even the rain-clouds flee. The king's importance extends to the very firmament. Mufasa explains that the stars are the spirits of past kings who guide the present one (putting a monarchist spin on traditional African ancestor worship). In the daytime, the sun is called into service; taken to Castle Rock, Simba is told that the king's domain, the Prideland, extends wherever the sun shines. Simba, listening to James Earl Jones's regal baritone, grows excited about his future role. He spends his time dreaming of his future power and singing show-stoppers like "I Can't Wait to be King."

This thinly disguised Oedipal longing puts an ace up the sleeve of Scar, Mufasa's evil and covetous brother. He plots with hyenas to put Simba in the path of a stampeding herd of wildebeest, a mishap which he uses as cover to kill Mufasa when the king tries to rescue his son. Scar convinces Simba that he is responsible for his own father's death. Simba, with a child's fear that one's wishes can have bad effects in the real world, readily accepts the blame. Flayed by a remorse that takes him most of the movie to overcome, he flees the kingdom, eventually found by a warthog-meerkat pair who raise him.

Meanwhile, Scar takes over. As the Bad Leader he brings the kingdom to ruin. Mannered and aristocratic, and clearly not producing heirs like his more manly brother, he is pointedly gay. He is also a rationalist and utilitarian, coveting the absolute power of kingship but not buying into its mystique. He exerts a corrupting influence on the young, skillfully putting all sorts of ideas into Simba's head. Worst of all, he willingly enters into an unholy alliance with the hyenas, a teeming brood of half-starved scavengers ghettoized in a "dark region." Taken as a whole, he represents that bκte-noir of contemporary right-wingers, the Liberal Politician.

Previously, Scar had goaded Simba to disobey his father and enter the prohibited "dark region." We tumble with the lion cub and his girlfriend into space that is suddenly enclosed, vertical and without vegetation, an "elephant graveyard" amid the cliffs. The huge elephant skeletons resemble the burnt-out shells of tall buildings, or perhaps the postindustrial remains of hulking machinery. Simba, on a dare, starts to enter a huge skull, only to be frozen in his tracks by eerie laughter. In classic hooligan fashion, three hyenas emerge and start circling Simba, taunting and threatening him. It's clear that Simba is on the wrong side of the tracks, in a bad neighborhood, surrounded by "the projects" — he's caught in the inner city.

The hyenas speak in "street voices" provided by Whoopi Goldberg and Cheech Marin and clearly represent poor blacks and Hispanics. They are also stereotypical gang members, inherently criminal, cutthroat and mercenary — brawling with each other when not united by a common victim. As scavengers whose own neighborhood offers slim pickings, they eagerly accept handouts. Scar provides them: he gains the hyena's loyalty by promising them a steady stream of meat, thus creating the Welfare State.

After he usurps the throne, Scar lets the hyenas out of the "dark region" and into the Prideland, to the horror of the other species. Catastrophe follows: the lions' resources are squandered by the lazy and rapacious hyenas, who, in turn, harass the lions with petty terror. The balance of nature is upset: the herds flee, the water dries up, and the landscape soon resembles the wasteland of the elephant graveyard. The hyenas carry their blight with them; having brought down the productive ecosystem that used to provide them with scraps, their starvation only worsens. They offend Scar, who cares only about his power, by voicing nostalgia for the Mufasa regime which kept them in their place.

The lionesses, witnessing the devastation all about them, are strangely passive — even though they do all of the hunting and are collectively strong enough to kick the asses of Scar and his praetorian guard of hyenas. Instead, they abandon all hope until they rediscover Simba, the rightful heir, whom they had thought dead. By this time, Simba is utterly useless by any standard, having spent his youth doing nothing but dancing around eating bugs. But no matter: he functions as the Leader — and without a Leader, even groups who possess all of the apparent power are in reality helpless.

Others join in this mystical valuation of the Leader. In life, Mufasa had emphasized the importance of bloodline. In death, his ghost visits Simba to cajole him to "remember who you are" and not to break the line of kingly succession, despite his lack of training. (Unlike the more sensible ghost of Hamlet's father, Mufasa forgets to tell the guilt-ridden Simba that the father was really murdered by Scar, a revelation that would have instantly put an end to Simba's paralyzing angst.) A baboon shaman on retainer to the royal family also encourages the youth to return, explaining that Mufasa "lives on" in Simba (the shaman's motives are at least explicable: his status took a nasty drop during Scar's regime). Caught in a medieval mindset, everyone seems convinced that the ascension of the rightful heir, in itself, will reestablish harmony. The writers and animators work hard to prove them right: when Simba takes over, the waters return. Male power becomes sanctioned by the cosmos, secure even in the face of apparent obsolescence.

Simba conquers Scar in the prescribed Disney manner: through pure exertion of will. Simba is teetering on the brink of death when Scar gloatingly reveals the truth about Mufasa's death. Simba leaps forward in a sudden surge of energy and subdues his uncle, who promptly sells out the hyenas. Demonstrating kingly mercy, Simba spares Scar — who, of course, tries one more backstab before he's done in by angry and betrayed hyenas, the very unsavory types he has spent his years pandering to. A fitting end to the Liberal Politician.

THE LION KING has a clear political agenda: end the welfare state, barricade the suburbs against the inner city, and replace liberal politicians with true, authoritarian leaders. It works: Simba's kingdom becomes once again green and stuffed with prey. The hyenas remain quarantined in their ghetto; the balance of nature, each species in its own habitat, becomes restored. The urban poor are evidently as unassimilable to mainstream U.S. society as Jews were to the society of Hitler's dreams. THE LION KING's recap of classically fascist themes bodes ill. Since Disney's animated extravaganzas reappeared with THE LITTLE MERMAID, they have been a weirdly accurate barometer of the "national political mood," including a brief liberal flourish around the time of Clinton's election.

Disney's 1980s features reflected the neo-conservative preoccupation with personal morality and "family values." They consist mainly of family dramas, bent on achieving proper heterosexual couple bonding despite the odds. The female leads in all three are restless and eager to escape their fathers' realms, an impulse which puts them in danger until they arrive safely into their husbands' arms. The males are all, at first, unworthy of full patriarchal responsibility but, in true PINOCCHIO fashion, overcome their weaknesses and, through exertions of will, defeat their foes and become fit successors to their wives' fathers. But there to thwart this happy outcome, simultaneously trying to usurp heterosexual power and distract the hero from the heroine, is that neocon bugaboo — the gay male. In an age when anti-semitism has fallen out of vogue and Communism, not taken seriously, he has to bear the full brunt of fascist animus.

At first glance, Ursula, the villain in THE LITTLE MERMAID, seems a woman; on closer inspection, however, the Sea Witch resembles a flamboyant, Divine-ly inspired drag queen. Her octopus-like lower half further renders her gender ambiguous: the first view of her tentacles emerging from the darkness is played up for shock value (not unlike a similar view in THE CRYING GAME). Ursula eventually pulls off a drag queen's coup. She takes on the appearance of a svelte brunette, speaks with the Little Mermaid's stolen voice (solving a chronic problem for female impersonators), and seduces the virile young prince into marrying her. She reveals the deception by literally splitting the seams of her disguise, emerging in her opulent glory; she manages to reduce the hypermasculine Sea King to a pathetic plant and only gets defeated when the virile prince impales her with the prow of a ship, thus contrasting his erect phallus with her flaccid ones. Her threat to heterosexual pair-bonding and patriarchal power is thus laid to rest.

The gay villain of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST is, by contrast, hypermasculine. Gaston, vain and preening, covets heterosexual status in pursuing Belle, the beauty of the title; but he constantly ignores both her and the trio of blonde bombshells that swoon over him. He is only truly interested in male gazes, and blossoms in the midst of his all-male lodge, where he sings a showstopper celebrating his own masculinity. Provided, like The Fox, with an elastic, high-contact companion, he is the epitome of camp. Mainly a figure of comic relief, he's hard to take very seriously. The true evil of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, in fact, lies elsewhere: in the sexual dysfunction of the hero, who suffers from what clinicians call "infantile narcissism." The witch's curse simply brings his fetishism — in which inanimate objects are endowed with ego-fulfilling life — out into the open, transforming his castle into something like Pee Wee's Playhouse. Constant parallels between his actions and Gaston's link his condition with Gaston's more deeply entrenched sexual deviance. He finally breaks the curse — defeating Gaston and restoring his realm to "normal" — by embracing a prosaic heterosexuality with Belle.

BEAUTY AND THE BEAST is a men's movement response to feminist nagging. It is engorged with anxiety that masculinity might be a mask for homosexuality; or that natural male narcissism might forever alienate the women that feminism has made so intolerant. In the end, it is a plea that women understand and love men's "beasts within" (their inner "wild men"), and help mother them into maturity. It is early 1990s wish fulfillment.

ALLADIN represents a surprising liberal aberration from Disney's right-wing trajectory. To be sure, the villain is still gay: Jafar is dark, effeminate, and prissily evil; Scar simply repeats Jafar in the shape of a lion. Jafar, however, very much acts the role of a gay man's gay villain, twisted by his desire for heterosexual power and his consequent self-enclosure in the closet. Advisor to the sultan, he is a Roy Cohn type with Leopold-and-Loeb overtones. He is counterpoised, moreover, to a healthier gay icon: the Genie, who, with Robin Williams's voice, flames across the screen in a one-man cabaret show. (Of course, a male genie is already sexually suspect in a culture whose TV-sitcom associations mark genies as female.) The Genie shifts gender several times and uses his transformative powers to generally wreak havoc on social categories, making street urchins into princes.

The other heroes are hippie twenty-somethings. Princess Jasmine wants to "break the rules" of her restrictive society. Aladdin woos her by taking her on a "magic carpet ride" to "a whole new world," a barely concealed acid trip. In the end, Aladdin renounces power by setting the Genie free from his lamp (releasing him from the closet, as it were). Happily, renouncing power ends up winning it for him, as he is put next in line for the sultanship. (He will no doubt be a cool sultan, treating his subjects to free concerts and, if possible, high-fat chunky ice-cream.)

Aladdin is everything Clinton was supposed to have been: of the people, hippie-ish, a friend to gays, and willing to renounce "politics as usual." ALLADIN embodies other liberalish themes: a sympathy with the urban poor, and an understanding of crime (like stealing) as a response to circumstances. Above all, ALLADIN embodies that strange liberal vision of social justice as nothing more than an United States in which Horatio Alger stories can once again come true.

With THE LION KING, the liberals have been ousted, in sync with the real conservative agenda of Clintonism and, more recently, with the Newt juggernaut: with its get-tough crime bill, its welfare reform, and its promises to restore to the middle class its lost paradise of 50s suburbia. The reclamation of suburbia, with its "traditional" values, forms the core of THE LION KING's story. Mufasa, it should be remembered, reigns over a rather odd kingdom: namely, of things he eats. There are no other lions in evidence (save Scar, his free-loading brother), and the lionesses are all dutiful domestic servants. Like a suburbanite ruling over a kingdom of appliances, cars, and household technology, Mufasa lords over a realm of consumables.

Simba, like Aladdin, goes the 1960s counterculture route. In THE LION KING, this is more clearly a shift in styles of consumption: from big-ticket antelope to brightly colored, smallscale, shiny designer insects. His pseudoparents, a meerkat and warthog, engage in an "alternative lifestyle," living as a couple to the exclusion of females of their own species. Their motto is slacker and multi-cultural: the Swahili "hakuna matada" — "who cares?" When Simba's former betrothed appears, he seems ready for free love. In the end, however, he is successfully exhorted to give up his irresponsible "alternative" lifestyle and, in one stroke, reclaim his "traditional" values and his father's kingdom. If we want to recreate the paradise of the 1950s, we have but to conquer the liberals and their decadent lifestyles.

In the 50 years since Walt Disney made PINOCCHIO, history has gone his way — that is to say, the wrong way. Resource-draining, environment-destroying suburbs have sprawled out of control, creating a centrifugal force that has not only reinforced segregation by race and income, but atomized humans to an unheard of extent. U.S. visions of collective action, both of the privileged and the oppressed, have almost completely decomposed into fascist fantasies of blood and soil. As the stockpiles of arms build up behind the ever more pervasive barricades, we are told that what everybody wants — and deeply needs — is a great leader.

It is an index of Walt Disney's success that THE LION KING and its social message could be explained without any reference to him. PINOCCHIO is impossible to imagine without the man behind it, with his psychic imbalances and ideological preoccupations; the fascism in PINOCCHIO came straight from Uncle Walt's heart. By contrast, THE LION KING was made by a studio run by Jews; the music was written by gays; many of the characters were voiced by respected black actors; and the writers were liberal enough to give the film a "multicultural" veneer. Its underlying fascism is not so much the product of a demonic individual. It simply reflects the "American reality" — a reality whose ugliness is not hard to discern below the slick surface of bland music and cute, fuzzy animals.

Apathetic
30-04-10, 10:47
I'm sorry but do you really expect us to read all that? :p
Could you sum it up?

]{eith
30-04-10, 10:51
What a load of ****. :vlol:

Carbonek_0051
30-04-10, 10:52
{eith;4560436']What a load of ****. :vlol:

I know right? :|

ajrich17901
30-04-10, 10:54
{eith;4560436']What a load of ****. :vlol:

Not a fan of most disney stuff but I gotta agree, most of the stuff just made me laugh (Not to be rude) but seriously,

Johnnay
30-04-10, 11:24
Like Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?????????

Cochrane
30-04-10, 11:33
The problem with this yet is that it makes good points. Not only, not mainly (Scar as a gay villain? Yeah, right), but there are thins in there that are legitimate issues to talk about.

Personally, I don't see it anywhere as extreme: Disney is clearly following patterns of storytelling that far predate our modern politics. Name me fairy-tales with a democratic society, for example. There are actually a few, but the majority deals with kings, princes and princesses.

Those old stories, as well as the new ones shaped like them, certainly have many of the issues mentioned, such as the gender roles that are outdated by modern standards. I don't find it very useful to blame Disney for that, though. They may not have improved upon things very much, but they hardly invented it either.

Tombraiderx08
30-04-10, 12:18
Are we seriously over-speculating Disney films? :confused: And whats wrong with gays and drag queens? :p

interstellardave
30-04-10, 12:19
I agree with Cochrane, here. While Disney himself may have been a Nazi in his heart, and he may have deliberately presented things in such a fashion back in the day, I don't think it's deliberate anymore. It's just a natural reflection of where society is at the moment... complete with that sinister dark side that's always beneath the surface of our real-world experience. Art imitates life, as they always say...

almayah
30-04-10, 12:20
I'm sorry but do you really expect us to read all that? :p
Could you sum it up?

yeah

How about "explanation in 3 sentences" :vlol:

Mermaidman
30-04-10, 12:28
lol

LightningRider
30-04-10, 12:51
Awww, it's the Illuminati Guardian when he was younger. <3

Capt. Murphy
30-04-10, 12:59
yeah

How about "explanation in 3 sentences" :vlol:

How 'bout 3 words... Disney :cen: :cen:.

I read 1/4th the way through, then scrolled down... Okay. So Disney has some problems or they're just being over analyzed in a negative way. I'll live not knowing all that info and/or rhetoric.

Besides, I've always disliked Mickey when I was a kid. I was more of a Donald Duck person.

ShadyCroft
30-04-10, 13:03
lol! Donald wears a top only and no pants :vlol: and wraps a towel around his waist when he leaves the shower

just kidding ! :o

I skimmed the article a bit. Is the guy being homophobic or tries to point out that Disney is homophobic ? I read bit and pieces and couldn't get which one is it

TRhalloween
30-04-10, 13:06
http://i42.tinypic.com/2ni6v69.gif

Oh goodie, fail for breakfast.

tonyme
30-04-10, 13:20
I'm soooooooo not reading that.:)

Dennis's Mom
30-04-10, 13:38
I think it's looking far to deep for stuff you want to see.

Trigger_happy
30-04-10, 14:04
I think it's looking far to deep for stuff you want to see.

That's what I was gonna say. You can find evil if you look that hard at anything.

Legend of Lara
30-04-10, 14:07
You know what? I'm going to read all of that and then post my thoughts.

I really like reading long texts for some reason.

EDIT-
That nonsense was nonsensical and it made no sense.

peeves
30-04-10, 14:41
That seems like a pointless post to me.

dizzydoil
30-04-10, 14:53
Pointless bull****. :)

toxicraider
30-04-10, 15:54
The Fox, is mannered, effeminate, urbane and of the theater. His small, strangely elastic companion, The Cat, constantly slithers around him and through his legs. Clumsily, the two of them often become entwined with each other in a chaos of limbs. They are clearly gay.As the Bad Leader he brings the kingdom to ruin. Mannered and aristocratic, and clearly not producing heirs like his more manly brother, he is pointedly gay.The gay villain of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST...I see a pattern here.

I'm pretty sure most antagonists I can think of in childrens films, are loners, and flamboyant etc.. which would give the impression (if it were somebody in the real world) that they are gay, when seen from an adult eye.

This person seems to believe that Disney are representing most of the antagonists as gay characters, when I highly doubt that any child would notice, especially when these things are being read into way too deeply.
I think this is evidence that children see things so much simpler than adults, and in a more naive and friendly way. Adults read into things too deeply, and see corruption where there is only innocence. I'm not denying that Disney could have intentionally used these characters, but it's hardly likely in my opinion.
A lot of his complaints about the Lion King I do totally disaggree with; Scar could have no children, as normally in the animal kingdom, the dominant lion (Musafa and Simba) would father the most children? I'm sure the social hierachy is just a representation of the natural world, combined with some human elements. Perhaps the combination of human and animal societies appears very facist, sexist, as it draws comparisons with human society. :p

I don't think he even mentions the most obvious possible example of political incorrectness; Scar is darker than the good lions. (It's especially obvious in the second film) :p

IceColdLaraCroft
30-04-10, 16:01
Pinnochio has more undertones of pedophilia than Nazi's.

His 'dad' is named "GePEDO" and there's a creepy old man that brings all the boys in town to "Pleasure island" then turns them into arsses.

Lara's Nemesis
30-04-10, 16:04
I don't think there is any doubt that there is a lot of racism in early Disney films.

I'm not sure if Walt himself was an actual Nazi but as mentioned in the first post he did attend the meetings of the German American Bund. Not sure exactly what his reasons for this were.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund


Disney went on to make quite a few anti Nazi propaganda films. You can find them on You Tube easily.

lara c. fan
30-04-10, 16:04
Pinnochio has more undertones of pedophilia than Nazi's.

His 'dad' is named "GePEDO" and there's a creepy old man that brings all the boys in town to "Pleasure island" then turns them into arsses.

I always thought it was Gepeto.....

Anyway, load of BS to me.

Looking in way too deep to try and find things that relate to the persons POV.

IceColdLaraCroft
30-04-10, 16:13
It's spelled Geppetto, but it sounds like PEDO

Chocola teapot
30-04-10, 16:15
What the Heck?

:vlol:

BlackRainbow
30-04-10, 16:16
I wish people would give Disney a break already...

Minty Mouth
30-04-10, 16:17
It's spelled Geppetto, but it sounds like PEDO
Even when pronounced correctly?

MangelinaJolie
30-04-10, 16:22
I wish people would give Disney a break already...

While I find this article a bit laughable in its attempts, I do think Disney deserves whatever flak it receives from its sexual undertones...

Legend of Lara
30-04-10, 16:30
Even when pronounced correctly?

Jeh-Pet-Oh, right?

tonyme
30-04-10, 16:31
It's not Disney who invented the Pinocchio story and his dad's name.

almayah
30-04-10, 16:42
It's not Disney who invented the Pinocchio story and his dad's name.

and Tony comes to rescue us

lara c. fan
30-04-10, 16:45
Jeh-Pet-Oh, right?

I would think so.

The only way I can think of it sounding like Ge-pedo is with an American accent, or such like.

Shark_Blade
30-04-10, 16:46
Pointless crap, no worries. ;)

Alpharaider47
30-04-10, 16:53
And I thought this thread was gonna be about Der Fuhrer's Face =/ That was Disney wasn't it?

Lara's Nemesis
30-04-10, 16:57
And I thought this thread was gonna be about Der Fuhrer's Face =/ That was Disney wasn't it?

Yep Donald Duck as a Nazi. These propaganda films are on You Tube.





I never liked Pinnochio when I was a kid, too creepy.

Legend of Lara
30-04-10, 16:58
And I thought this thread was gonna be about Der Fuhrer's Face =/ That was Disney wasn't it?

I found that short hilarious.

Alpharaider47
30-04-10, 17:00
I found that short hilarious.

We watched a bunch of em in my history class a few years ago, quite funny.

Rai
30-04-10, 17:11
I couldn't read all of that, probably managed about a 1/4, but imo, this is what you get when an adult over-analysis children's stories/cartoons, and as pointed out, some of which weren't originally created by Disney in the first place.

BlackRainbow
30-04-10, 17:19
While I find this article a bit laughable in its attempts, I do think Disney deserves whatever flak it receives from its sexual undertones...
Whatever, I never thought of that when I was a kid anyway.

Alpharaider47
30-04-10, 17:22
I think it's funny that we make such a big deal about it when the people who watch it the most are generally too young to even understand the concepts we're talking about. They say when you're looking for something you'll find it.

BlackRainbow
30-04-10, 17:24
I think it's funny that we make such a big deal about it when the people who watch it the most are generally too young to even understand the concepts we're talking about. They say when you're looking for something you'll find it.
Exactly my point.

Goose
30-04-10, 17:29
If thats the short version, how longs the long version!

You can manipulate anything to have 10 meanings.

interstellardave
30-04-10, 17:42
I think it's funny that we make such a big deal about it when the people who watch it the most are generally too young to even understand the concepts we're talking about. They say when you're looking for something you'll find it.

You make the very point that the writer was trying to make, though... It's not that kids will understand these things... it's the worry that they will be indoctrinated by these movies into thinking a certain way. The very fact that they are young and impressionable is the whole point.

Now that may sound laughable, and may or may not apply to Disney... but it's all valid science. Propoganda works.

Encore
30-04-10, 17:48
I don't understand the point because all Disney movies (even the ones they call "original" such as Lion King :pi:) were based on children's stories that existed previously.

If you're gonna fight this fight at least turn to the people who actually wrote the fairy tales and original stories. (although I'm guessing the Grimm brothers don't give a **** ATM :cool:)

And as in any other time this subject arises, my response is the same: millions of children all over the world grew up watching Disney cartoons. If this was brainwashing people into becoming nazis and pervs, I think we would have noticed it by now.

IceColdLaraCroft
30-04-10, 18:01
Even when pronounced correctly?

There's not much difference b/w petto & pedo even in British or American English.

Some old man wants a real boy to sleep in his bed....come on.

TRhalloween
30-04-10, 18:02
There's not much difference b/w petto & pedo even in British or American English.

Some old man wants a real boy to sleep in his bed....come on.

In the UK at least, it's pronounced Pee-do.

IceColdLaraCroft
30-04-10, 18:07
In the UK at least, it's pronounced Pee-do.

Even in the movie itself? Was it redubbed or something?

Rai
30-04-10, 18:19
Even in the movie itself? Was it redubbed or something?
UK pronunciations: Jeh-Pe-tto, Pee-do phile, different sounds altogether.

MangelinaJolie
30-04-10, 18:33
Whatever, I never thought of that when I was a kid anyway.

Of course not. I didn't either, but that doesn't make it any less of a problem. At least to me. :p

Kelly Craftman
30-04-10, 18:45
If thats the short version, how longs the long version!

Haha i was thinking the same thing :p

Carbonek_0051
30-04-10, 18:55
While I find this article a bit laughable in its attempts, I do think Disney deserves whatever flak it receives from its sexual undertones...
There are no sexual undertone, that's once again wanting to see something that isn't there. They haven't deserved any flak.
I don't understand the point because all Disney movies (even the ones they call "original" such as Lion King :pi:) were based on children's stories that existed previously.

If you're gonna fight this fight at least turn to the people who actually wrote the fairy tales and original stories. (although I'm guessing the Grimm brothers don't give a **** ATM :cool:)

And as in any other time this subject arises, my response is the same: millions of children all over the world grew up watching Disney cartoons. If this was brainwashing people into becoming nazis and pervs, I think we would have noticed it by now.
Exactly.:tmb:
There's not much difference b/w petto & pedo even in British or American English.

Some old man wants a real boy to sleep in his bed....come on.

You really are reaching. Disney didn't come up with the name of the old or the story. The story is ages old, and it doesn't have tone of pedophilia. Gepetto never even did anything appropriate. So once again, your whole theory is very pointless.

LaraLuvrrr
30-04-10, 19:59
I don't but this.

If you put politics into anything it will be criticized no matter what. Too liberal too conservative too feminist too blah blah

and I've heard this argument before of Disney being fascist and ties to Hitler but there's no evidence Walt Disney was a Nazi sympathizer so I don't buy it.

And since when is Jaffar gay? Or the Genie gay? Half the things in that article or writing have no basis for them. Disney never said any character was gay or pro this or pro that.

Ward Dragon
30-04-10, 20:01
I don't understand the point because all Disney movies (even the ones they call "original" such as Lion King :pi:) were based on children's stories that existed previously.

If you're gonna fight this fight at least turn to the people who actually wrote the fairy tales and original stories. (although I'm guessing the Grimm brothers don't give a **** ATM :cool:)

And as in any other time this subject arises, my response is the same: millions of children all over the world grew up watching Disney cartoons. If this was brainwashing people into becoming nazis and pervs, I think we would have noticed it by now.

Exactly :tmb: I really think that article was clutching at straws. For example, painting Scar as a liberal gay man? If you actually watch the movie it's clear Scar himself is supposed to represent a fascist (he even has the hyenas goose-stepping while he sings) and he's the bad guy who gets killed. The Lion King is anti-fascist if anything.

Also, did I read the article correctly that Hitler had Mickey Mouse underwear? O_O

IceColdLaraCroft
30-04-10, 20:01
You really are reaching. Disney didn't come up with the name of the old or the story. The story is ages old, and it doesn't have tone of pedophilia. Gepetto never even did anything appropriate. So once again, your whole theory is very pointless.

:smk:

You didn't really *get* what I was trying to say. You can pick apart anything from Disney and say it's one thing or another whether it's fascism or something sexual. You can literally see/hear what you want. It's like people who used to say you could see a penis on the original cover of the little mermaid, or the dust that spells "sex" in the lion king (which you'd have to pause at the right moment to even try to see)

Alpharaider47
30-04-10, 20:02
:smk:

You didn't really *get* what I was trying to say. You can pick apart anything from Disney and say it's one thing or another whether it's fascism or something sexual. You can literally see/hear what you want. It's like people who used to say you could see a penis on the original cover of the little mermaid, or the dust that spells "sex" in the lion king (which you'd have to pause at the right moment to even try to see)

And wasn't that supposed to just say SFX or w/e the name of the company was?

IceColdLaraCroft
30-04-10, 20:07
And wasn't that supposed to just say SFX or w/e the name of the company was?

:vlol: yea, but there were parents that freaked out about it and it's like "well you know if YOU didn't point it out your kids wouldn't even notice!"

tonyme
30-04-10, 20:11
God, this thread is hilarious... And misleading thread title anyone? 'Short'?

Alpharaider47
30-04-10, 20:12
Lol I know :vlol:

irjudd
30-04-10, 20:24
I have to admit, that was a fascinating read. I never saw Pinnochio all the way through, but now I kind of want to just to see if I can pick up on some of the insinuated overtones in here. I often did wonder why so many of the disney villains were overly effeminate when villains are usually considered big scary tough guys. I'll be honest when I say that it wouldn't surprise me if at least some of the things brought up in this were fact.

Encore
30-04-10, 20:52
It really annoys me that not one thing is said in the OP about Pinnochio not being Disney's invention. FFS, man, Wikipedia is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Pinocchio

ggctuk
30-04-10, 21:23
*sigh* is this another attempt by 4Kids to censor everything?

Legend 4ever
30-04-10, 23:42
Are we seriously over-speculating Disney films? :confused: And whats wrong with gays and drag queens? :p

They are actually not attacking gays, they are saying that Disney is exploiting gay people and drag queens as villains in their movies in order to tell the kids that's what's wrong in the society. But really, why take things this seriously?

Legend of Lara
30-04-10, 23:44
*sigh* is this another attempt by 4Kids to censor everything?

4Kids is a mindless, evil corporation tha------ 4Kids produces quality television for the all kidz and any and all edits they make are completely understandable!

MangelinaJolie
01-05-10, 00:32
There are no sexual undertone, that's once again wanting to see something that isn't there. They haven't deserved any flak.

Who Framed Roger Rabbit? It was made by Disney, IIRC.

Alpharaider47
01-05-10, 00:35
They are actually not attacking gays, they are saying that Disney is exploiting gay people and drag queens as villains in their movies in order to tell the kids that's what's wrong in the society. But really, why take things this seriously?

Exactly lol, half this stuff you wouldn't even notice unless someone pointed it out to you. And then think about the fact that these are things kids watch, are they really going to understand those concepts? Do they even know what gays and drag queens are?

Carbonek_0051
01-05-10, 00:36
Who Framed Roger Rabbit? It was made by Disney, IIRC.

Nope, it was made under Touchstone which is owned by Disney. But the Walt Disney brand has pretty much stayed family friendly. With the exception of the Pirates films.

Touchstone is for their more "mature" film projects.

MangelinaJolie
01-05-10, 00:41
Nope, it was made under Touchstone which is owned by Disney. But the Walt Disney brand has pretty much stayed family friendly. With the exception of the Pirates films.

Touchstone is for their more "mature" film projects.

Well then in that case my point is moot. :p

Alpharaider47
01-05-10, 01:18
I didn't even think about Pirates lol. Ok that I have to concede has some obvious innuendos, however I doubt the average kid is going to catch on.

Carbonek_0051
01-05-10, 01:23
Well the Pirates films are rated PG-13, so it's pretty obvious they aren't intended for young children.:p

Alpharaider47
01-05-10, 01:50
Well the Pirates films are rated PG-13, so it's pretty obvious they aren't intended for young children.:p

True but that doesn't stop everybody

miss.haggard
01-05-10, 02:01
I read about half of this, and honestly, was a little offended. Yes, I as an adult can pick up these themes, and I can also twist the story to whatever I feel fit. A child isn't going to see all these undertones, and I still see the Lion King as story of a son trying to redeem his fathers throne.

He made some great points, and the article was well written. I can see how some people would think too much into a Disney movie because there "has to be something more." Reminds me of a recent episode of South Park, where people read too much into a book that was nothing more than words on paper.

*shrug* My kids will still watch them, not as much as Star Wars, but they will play a large part in their "tv time."

Dennis's Mom
01-05-10, 13:50
And I thought this thread was gonna be about Der Fuhrer's Face =/ That was Disney wasn't it?

That was a hit song by Spike Jones originally.

igonge
01-05-10, 14:53
Anti-Disney campaign...? :vlol:

xXhayleyroxXx
01-05-10, 17:41
I'm a major major disney fan. Walt Disney as a person? I hate. But to be honest it wasnt just him that made the cartoons and designs - and he did steal a lot of the stories from existing ones and twisted them.

The disney movies are fine for kids - i grew up watching them. Some are sad, but it helped me learn about death - and the happiness and catchy songs made up for that. Disney movies gave me hope that theres someone out there for everyone - they made me a hopeless romantic :) <3

ggctuk
01-05-10, 18:13
4Kids is a mindless, evil corporation tha------ 4Kids produces quality television for the all kidz and any and all edits they make are completely understandable!

:vlol:

NightsGoneSour
01-05-10, 18:17
{eith;4560436']What a load of ****. :vlol:

I agree. :vlol:

Encore
01-05-10, 18:23
He made some great points, and the article was well written. I can see how some people would think too much into a Disney movie because there "has to be something more." Reminds me of a recent episode of South Park, where people read too much into a book that was nothing more than words on paper.


There is a word for that too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

Alpharaider47
01-05-10, 18:24
^^ I think I'm gonna adopt that word. Very fitting

Carbonek_0051
01-05-10, 21:43
I'm a major major disney fan. Walt Disney as a person? I hate. But to be honest it wasnt just him that made the cartoons and designs - and he did steal a lot of the stories from existing ones and twisted them.

Why do you hate Walt Disney as a person?:confused:

He was one of the greatest guys alive at the time, he built a company on his ideas and family values. Sure he made films based of old stories but that's not all he did. Disneyland and most of the original rides were his ideas, he created a world of magic and if it wasn't for him Disney wouldn't be around today. He didn't "steal" anything, all of his films said they were "based" on something.

xXhayleyroxXx
01-05-10, 22:17
Why do you hate Walt Disney as a person?:confused:

He was one of the greatest guys alive at the time, he built a company on his ideas and family values. Sure he made films based of old stories but that's not all he did. Disneyland and most of the original rides were his ideas, he created a world of magic and if it wasn't for him Disney wouldn't be around today. He didn't "steal" anything, all of his films said they were "based" on something.

i read somewhere he hated jews - and that all the stupid characters in disney movies have big noses :pi: i dont actually hate him i just dislike that fact (if its indeed true)

Carbonek_0051
01-05-10, 22:19
i read somewhere he hated jews - and that all the stupid characters in disney movies have big noses :pi: i dont actually hate him i just dislike that fact (if its indeed true)

It's not true, it's just a nasty rumor that's been going around forever.

Lara's Nemesis
01-05-10, 22:36
He didn't help himself by attending the German American Bund meetings in the 30's and being a member of The Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals in the 40's.



Found this

Neal Gabler, author of the book "Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination", as quoted from his Nov. 1, 2006 "The Early Show" interview:

"Walt Disney got the reputation (of being an anti-Semite) because, in the 1940s, he got himself allied with a group called The Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals, which was an anti-Communist and anti-Semitic organization. And though Walt himself, in my estimation, was not anti-Semitic, nevertheless, he willingly allied himself with people who were anti-Semitic, and that reputation stuck. He was never really able to expunge it throughout his life."





I'm not sure exactly what his motives for this were, I do however think he must have shared some similar views on life.



Is it possible Andrew Ryan from Bioshock was inspired by Walt Disney? ;)

http://i39.tinypic.com/2507zmh.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2aj0xog.jpg

Walt Disney speaks about his initial plans for his Experimental Prototype Community (EPCOT).

pxC_a7qnGi8&feature=related

Encore
02-05-10, 00:00
Even if Walt Disney had such beliefs, I (personally) don't really see their influence on the Disney legacy itself.
But it does shed some negative light on the man himself.

RockSteady101
02-05-10, 00:10
Stitch is based on illegal aliens and immigrants

FACT

Catapharact
02-05-10, 00:18
Even if Walt Disney had such beliefs, I (personally) don't really see their influence on the Disney legacy itself.

Because the Board of Directors at Disney have done quite a bit of work in cleaning up any "racial specific" stereotypical aspects of their cartoon characters (Crows from Dumbo anyone? Lol!) Offcourse, they have done such a lame assed job at it, that its almost an insult on its own to see them trying to clean up Disney's image :p:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/u1O7bOrsVIA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/u1O7bOrsVIA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

xXhayleyroxXx
02-05-10, 01:26
It's not true, it's just a nasty rumor that's been going around forever.

seriously? thats the last time i trust my friend with info :pi: i apologise :hug:

LaraLuvrrr
02-05-10, 02:43
seriously? thats the last time i trust my friend with info :pi: i apologise :hug:

It's a rumor that won't go away. Its so popular that I even saw a giant exhibition by an artist who's work is all about tying Disney to fascism and Nazis. Idk why it doesnt go away :confused:

Alpharaider47
02-05-10, 02:50
Stitch is based on illegal aliens and immigrants

FACT

haha i completely forgot about that movie.

Encore
02-05-10, 02:55
It's a rumor that won't go away. Its so popular that I even saw a giant exhibition by an artist who's work is all about tying Disney to fascism and Nazis. Idk why it doesnt go away :confused:

I think people are fascinated by the idea that something as naive as Disney movies could coexist with something as brutal as fascism. :p It's the same reason why people find all these sexual undertones, it's just irresistible to dig for the dirty and the mundane in material perceived as too clean to be true.

Ward Dragon
02-05-10, 03:26
I think people are fascinated by the idea that something as naive as Disney movies could coexist with something as brutal as fascism. :p It's the same reason why people find all these sexual undertones, it's just irresistible to dig for the dirty and the mundane in material perceived as too clean to be true.

Yeah, but the weird part is that the Disney movies do actually have some pretty serious stuff in them (murder, kidnap, abuse, etc.) so why do people look for made-up things to complain about when the movies are pretty violent on the surface without any digging? :p

Alpharaider47
02-05-10, 03:28
It's not as fun when it's obvious. If it's hidden you can really spin it how you want.

tonyme
02-05-10, 10:23
It's not even hidden. It's people's silly interpretations.

Kelly Craftman
02-05-10, 10:26
Stitch is based on illegal aliens and immigrants

FACT

:vlol:
I loved that movie :(

tonyme
02-05-10, 10:27
It is an amazing movie!:)

Encore
02-05-10, 12:24
Yeah, but the weird part is that the Disney movies do actually have some pretty serious stuff in them (murder, kidnap, abuse, etc.) so why do people look for made-up things to complain about when the movies are pretty violent on the surface without any digging? :p

Yes, and that is true also about the fairy tales they're based on - which, in fact, are often even darker and more violent. But I guess that doesn't worry people :p

Cochrane
02-05-10, 12:53
Well, I don't think the violence is really all that harmful to children, if it is the fairy-tale version instead of the highly realistic things in "real" movies. After all, children have been listening to these stories for ages already. Putting them on a screen probably does make it more scary, but compared to the original stories, Disney's interpretations are all a whole lot less violent.

Ward Dragon
02-05-10, 17:12
Yes, and that is true also about the fairy tales they're based on - which, in fact, are often even darker and more violent. But I guess that doesn't worry people :p

Yeah, I was in shock the first time I heard the real version of The Little Mermaid XD The real version of Beauty and the Beast was good though (and strangely the Disney version was actually more violent for that one). But overall you are definitely right that Disney tones down the violence compared to the originals :p

Well, I don't think the violence is really all that harmful to children, if it is the fairy-tale version instead of the highly realistic things in "real" movies. After all, children have been listening to these stories for ages already. Putting them on a screen probably does make it more scary, but compared to the original stories, Disney's interpretations are all a whole lot less violent.

I agree. All I was saying is that I could understand if people were complaining about things that were actually in the movie (for example, I can see how it would be traumatizing for a small child to see Bambi's mother die). I just don't get the point of reading all of this crap into the movies and complaining about that, though. It seems ridiculous to me.