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Quasimodo
07-05-10, 03:58
Necessary or evil? Necessary Evil?

Arizona Passes Anti-Illegal Immigrant Bill Requiring Police Checks (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/04/arizona_passes_antiillegal_imm.html)

Carbonek_0051
07-05-10, 04:00
Evil, ****ing evil. You have no idea how much this annoys, this will affect me and my family. Honestly, my brother told me about it and I was unbelivably ****ed.

I get people are sick of the all the illegal immagrants, but this is just not necessary at all.

Mikky
07-05-10, 04:01
Wow, you sure make a lot of threads. My type of guy. :p

Alpharaider47
07-05-10, 04:05
I think it's a necessary Evil. It's calling attention to an issue that would have gone ignored for who knows how long. I don't agree with everything in it, but it's getting the nation to think about this, and that's what's needed to begin down the road to resolving it.

Carbonek_0051
07-05-10, 04:06
I really fail to see how racial profiling is a necessary evil.

Alpharaider47
07-05-10, 04:09
I was referring to the immigration aspect. I don't think they should be allowed to just stop just anybody though. I figure they ought to treat it like a cop pulling you over. They ought to have probable cause. I think racial profiling will become an inevitable byproduct of anything we instate on the matter however.

Quasimodo
07-05-10, 04:18
Evil, ****ing evil. You have no idea how much this annoys, this will affect me and my family. Honestly, my brother told me about it and I was unbelivably ****ed.

I get people are sick of the all the illegal immagrants, but this is just not necessary at all.

If you don't mind my asking, how will it affect you and your family? I think it's important for people to look at the impact of such a bill from all sides.

Carbonek_0051
07-05-10, 04:21
If you don't mind my asking, how will it affect you and your family? I think it's important for people to look at the impact of such a bill from all sides.

Well pretty much all of my family is hispanic, and we look it. My brother has already been followed by cops while driving since this has been been passed and before you ask yes he was following road rules and going the speed limit. No doubt at least one of my family members or I will be pulled over by a cop because of this and it sucks. :/

I hate the whole immigration situation as much as everyone, but this IMO is not necessary at all.

spikejones
07-05-10, 04:33
Personally I think its somewhat hypocritical of the United States to pass anti immigration laws considering how we were founded - as immigrants! However I can understand a gamut of arguments on the issue of illegal immigrants.

They come here and get jobs that could be held by an American citizen, one who gives a **** about the flag. Then, they don't pay taxes on the income like the rest of the law abiding nation does, because they're getting paid under the table to save the employer's own ass. And that money they make... usually ends up not being put back into the American economy but is instead going to Mexico where you're essentially rich with an America minimum wage salary. How is that right? Yeah I'd say thats an issue. IMO if you're gonna come to America - do it right.

Alpharaider47
07-05-10, 06:11
Personally I think its somewhat hypocritical of the United States to pass anti immigration laws considering how we were founded - as immigrants! However I can understand a gamut of arguments on the issue of illegal immigrants.

They come here and get jobs that could be held by an American citizen, one who gives a **** about the flag. Then, they don't pay taxes on the income like the rest of the law abiding nation does, because they're getting paid under the table to save the employer's own ass. And that money they make... usually ends up not being put back into the American economy but is instead going to Mexico where you're essentially rich with an America minimum wage salary. How is that right? Yeah I'd say thats an issue. IMO if you're gonna come to America - do it right.

I agree. Interestingly enough we had a presentation on illegal immigration in sociology today lol. It appears that our measures regarding visas and whatnot are a bit outdated. Seeing as that is a legal route to entering the country, I would support expanding this. If immigrants are documented and pay taxes, etc, I think they deserve some of the benefits our country has to offer. It's the illegals and free loaders that upset me. I think these are things that need to be addressed, and the Arizona law has brought this stuff out in the open. That's not say it hasn't got problems, but now that we are talking about it, we can work on fixing it.

TRLegendLuver
07-05-10, 06:15
I don't think its too necessary, but I don't think its evil.

Melonie Tomb Raider
07-05-10, 06:15
I'm annoyed by illegal immigration, but I don't think racial profiling is very fair.

Ward Dragon
07-05-10, 18:08
Well, Obama got one thing right -- this law got passed because the federal government hasn't done a goddamned thing about illegal immigration. If this law provokes actual immigration reform, then I think that's ultimately a good thing. As for whether the law itself is good, that depends upon how it is implemented -- if it's used to check the immigration status of people who have already committed another crime, that's fine. If it's used to harass legal citizens then that's a problem.

Mr.Burns
07-05-10, 18:10
Heather's bored again I see :p

Rubbish, the law that is. Otherwise Ward Dragon's post sums up my feelings on the matter.

Lemmie
07-05-10, 18:12
This law is absolutely ridiculous.

Capt. Murphy
07-05-10, 18:13
I heard this talked about on the radio. If any "profiling" is going to be done it's when a suspect is in custody for a legitimate reason. Like if they're stopped for a traffic violation, or their axle is grinding on the pavement causing sparks to fly as they drive down the highway. :whi:

There'd be sparks because their vehicle would be packed like a clown car. :)

Edit: I'm 110% for the Bill. So. Someone please explain to me what is wrong with getting citizenship for this country the legal way?

Arizona Bill. The next Indiana Jones. :tmb:

CPETE
07-05-10, 18:49
Here are the issues with granting amnesty:
1. The federal government would be rewarding people for breaking the law. Illegal immigrants are essentially criminals. We don't reward people for breaking into houses so why should we reward people for illegally crossing the border?
2. Most illegal immigrants are low income. This means that if they are granted citizenship they still will probably not pay income taxes. They would be full citizens who would receive full benefits while not paying anything into the system. It would be an even bigger burden on the tax payers and the economy.

As far as the Arizona bill is concerned, I really don't know what to think. I hear from some sources that you have to be committing an infraction in order to be asked for identification. Other sources say that the police only need reasonable suspicion. The best solution would be to secure the borders properly although the federal government has failed big time at that. One of the things that really bugs me is that people are so concerned over the rights of illegal immigrants (who don't technically have rights anyway). What about the rights of Arizonans (who actually are US citizens) who have to deal with all of the negative consequences of illegal immigration into their state? I'm sorry but it's a little ridiculous to place racial profiling as more important than murder, kidnapping, and human and drug trafficking. If anyone is to blame it would be the federal government for not doing its job.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
07-05-10, 19:25
The reason our govt' has been so lax on immigration is easily understood when you look at it like this: Economic growth is tied to population growth. By allowing immigrants to easily enter the US we're basically stealing consumers from another country. Not all of them work, but a hell of a lot of them do.

CPETE
08-05-10, 00:49
Population growth does not necessarily equal economic growth. It doesn't exactly help the economy when people send back a large portion of their untaxed income back to their home country to circulate in that country's economy. It also doesn't help when the same people who don't pay taxes benefit from welfare programs that they have absolutely no business benefiting from. I think the reason nothing has been done is because illegal immigration has become so rampant that it is now considered to be a part of life. They probably figure that it's going to happen so why put in the effort and money to stop it.

miss.haggard
08-05-10, 01:38
Evil, ****ing evil. You have no idea how much this annoys, this will affect me and my family. Honestly, my brother told me about it and I was unbelivably ****ed.

I get people are sick of the all the illegal immagrants, but this is just not necessary at all.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you suggest the US do about illegal immigration? :o

Carbonek_0051
08-05-10, 01:47
If you don't mind me asking, what do you suggest the US do about illegal immigration? :o

I really don't know, but I just really don't think THIS is it.

AmericanAssassin
08-05-10, 01:51
So much discrimination is going to occur in Arizona if that ****ty thing happens. So ridiculous, I can't even express it. :cen:

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 02:21
So much discrimination is going to occur in Arizona if that ****ty thing happens. So ridiculous, I can't even express it. :cen:

I'll be honest, I think there's already a lot of discrimination across the whole of the south-western US states, from both sides.

miss.haggard
08-05-10, 02:27
I'll be honest, I think there's already a lot of discrimination across the whole of the south-western US states, from both sides.

Its not just one area of the US, its the entire world. And NOTHING is ever going to change how some people feel about other races. The best thing you can do in life is just let people think whatever they want to think and stop worrying that you don't agree with them. /rant.

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 02:28
Its not just one area of the US, its the entire world. And NOTHING is ever going to change how some people feel about other races. The best thing you can do in life is just let people think whatever they want to think and stop worrying that you don't agree with them. /rant.

That's true, but I can only speak from experience about the south western US. It's a shame.

miss.haggard
08-05-10, 02:29
That's true, but I can only speak from experience about the south western US. It's a shame.

I see, from the 2 places I've lived I've seen plenty of racism from both sides as well.

knightgames
08-05-10, 02:32
Some may not like it, but legalize marijuana. That will curb a lot of drug trade/traffic. Heavily fine businesses using illegals. When an illegal enters a hospital for aid, give them the aid but also call INS. Get rid of the anchor baby law. All legal immigrants carry documentation.

As far as this Arizona law - I have no problem with them enforcing our/their borders with the means necessary. The Federal Government has failed in this regard, and until something more tangible is done this is the best alternative.

I know it appears to be racist, but it isn't. It's a matter of demographics. Since the bordering country happens to be Mexico it stands to reason that Mexican people would be under suspicion. Is it profiling? By default? Yes. But when do we not profile? Whether it be for policing or for sales it's no different and it happens all the time.

Instead of being mad about a certain group of people being singled out you should be angry at them for breaking the law to enter illegally.

Ward Dragon
08-05-10, 02:41
When an illegal enters a hospital for aid, give them the aid but also call INS.

There's a greater concern for the public good -- if an illegal immigrant has a contagious disease like tuberculosis, they need to get treatment immediately. If they are afraid of being deported and avoid getting treatment, then they'll spread the disease.

Get rid of the anchor baby law.

Easier said than done. As it is right now, that "law" is the 14th Amendment which was created after the Civil War to ensure that all freed slaves were counted as citizens and not deprived of their rights. In order to get rid of the "anchor baby" situation, we would either need Congress to create a new amendment to the Constitution canceling that part out or else the Supreme Court would need to rule that the 14th Amendment does not extend to children born of non-citizen parents.

voltz
08-05-10, 02:41
Immigration is a problem in terms of bleeding money back to mexico. Suffice to say, come to the US, make a mint and retire, but that's money we really need to get ourselves out of national debt.

Quasimodo
08-05-10, 03:07
There's a greater concern for the public good -- if an illegal immigrant has a contagious disease like tuberculosis, they need to get treatment immediately. If they are afraid of being deported and avoid getting treatment, then they'll spread the disease.
Not just that, but it's inhumane to scare people away from getting needed medical attention.

Immigration is a problem in terms of bleeding money back to mexico. Suffice to say, come to the US, make a mint and retire, but that's money we really need to get ourselves out of national debt.
That's probably one of the biggest parts of the problem. There are at least a dozen money wiring places within 5 miles of me.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
08-05-10, 03:15
Not just that, but it's inhumane to scare people away from getting needed medical attention.


That's probably one of the biggest parts of the problem. There are at least a dozen money wiring places within 5 miles of me.

Even decent neighborhoods have these ****holes... But it's not always just sending money back, a lot of them use the money in order to help more family get here.

Uzi master
08-05-10, 03:37
this reminds me of this guy that was arrested because he "looked" like a drug addict. Profileling of any kind is the wrong way to deal with crime. BTW is it wrong for people to bring money to there own country? if they work for it who cares?

Draco
08-05-10, 05:14
Racial Profiling was a problem before this new law. The only functional change is now cops can ask if you are here legally.

knightgames
08-05-10, 05:16
There's a greater concern for the public good -- if an illegal immigrant has a contagious disease like tuberculosis, they need to get treatment immediately. If they are afraid of being deported and avoid getting treatment, then they'll spread the disease.

Good point regarding communicable deseases. I hadn't thought of that. I was trying to be compassionate and not deny aid to someone who needs it.



Easier said than done. As it is right now, that "law" is the 14th Amendment which was created after the Civil War to ensure that all freed slaves were counted as citizens and not deprived of their rights. In order to get rid of the "anchor baby" situation, we would either need Congress to create a new amendment to the Constitution canceling that part out or else the Supreme Court would need to rule that the 14th Amendment does not extend to children born of non-citizen parents.

I'd be for a ruling by the Supreme Court that the 14th Amendment does not extend to children born of non-citizen parents.

Personally I'd wish a more compassionate way to handle situations like this. But with a debt of trillions we're handing our children... states going bankrupt... schools failing.... security being an issue... etc etc etc.... something needs to be done.

I CERTAINLY don't want a round up of all peoples like what happened in 1939, but if someone is in fact breaking a law and is shown to be illegal then action should be taken.

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 05:33
^^ I think another issue that could get involved with that would be the rules of citizenship in this country. If the child is born in the United States, they're a citizen, so can you can't really kick them out, and if the parents are illegal, what can you do?

Also Draco has an excellent point. As i mentioned earlier, I think racial profiling is inevitable, this law isn't going to affect that too much. And it's not just an Arizona problem either.

Draco
08-05-10, 05:43
If the child is born in the United States, they're a citizen, so can you can't really kick them out, and if the parents are illegal, what can you do?

Change the law.

2kool4u
08-05-10, 05:50
Racial Profiling works wonders and is indeed a necessary evil. Say what you like call me a racist but i am a Puerto Rican and i can tell you the reason racial profiling exists in the first place is because it works, there are statistics that are based on race, age and crime. Some races happen to do more crimes than another, so they are looked into more thoroughly. If someone fits the description and they look suspicious they get checked and most of the time they just so happen to be in the wrong. It's one thing to just stop and check, it's completely different to treat someone like ****.

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 05:52
Change the law.

Well that's an answer, but then how would one become a citizen? I'm not sure there's an easy answer to it.

Quasimodo
08-05-10, 05:59
Well that's an answer, but then how would one become a citizen? I'm not sure there's an easy answer to it.

By having at least one American citizen as a parent.

Draco
08-05-10, 06:02
Well that's an answer, but then how would one become a citizen? I'm not sure there's an easy answer to it.

It is an easy answer, it is just inconvenient. If such a law were to be enacted it would likely read like this:

If both biological parents are citizens, the child is a citizen as well. If one parent is a citizen and they are married, the child is a citizen. If one parent is a citizen and they are not married, the status of the mother is adopted for the child. If neither is a citizen, the child is not either and all applicable parties are deported as soon as is safe to do so.

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 06:04
Yeah I forgot about that, aren't some of those already a part of the law now? I've only recently begun digging into citizenship stuff, but that's in an effort to learn more about my dual citizenship.
I'm a bit tired now, you'll have to forgive me :p

Goose
08-05-10, 07:11
It makes alot of sense to me, if the border down there is letting these people in, of a certain race, and they want to stop it, then they have no choice put to profile that race.

Besides iv heard some police guys have been having a hard time with the drugs that are coming in with the immigrants, aswell as the weapons. Didnt a deputy get shot by an illigal immigrant the other day in Arizona?

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 07:13
Yeah it seems like a lot of the Drug War violence, etc is spilling across the border and now US Citizens are getting dragged into it on our side of the border.

Goose
08-05-10, 07:18
Yeah it seems like a lot of the Drug War violence, etc is spilling across the border and now US Citizens are getting dragged into it on our side of the border.

Yea. To do it without profiling would just cost tax payers more. Whats the point in stopping 3 black people, 3 asian people, 3 white people or whatever, just to fill a quota to keep people happy, when its not asians or africans crossing the border in Arizona!

knightgames
08-05-10, 16:45
It makes alot of sense to me, if the border down there is letting these people in, of a certain race, and they want to stop it, then they have no choice put to profile that race.

Besides iv heard some police guys have been having a hard time with the drugs that are coming in with the immigrants, aswell as the weapons. Didnt a deputy get shot by an illigal immigrant the other day in Arizona?


That's why I said it was an issue of demographics (where they live and the local population) not racism.

Also, legalize marijuana. There have been ~ 18,000 murders in Mexico because of drug cartel wars in the last 3 years according to a quote I heard on 60 Minutes a while back. Consider the effect on border states and it seems elementary to me. Legalize it.

Profiling is a tool used in many applications. Advertizers do it all the time to reach their intended market. Police investigations utilize profiling to narrow searches of criminal activity.

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 16:48
That's why I said it was an issue of demographics (where they live and the local population) not racism.

Also, legalize marijuana. There have been ~ 18,000 murders in Mexico because of drug cartel wars in the last 3 years according to a quote I heard on 60 Minutes a while back. Consider the effect on border states and it seems elementary to me. Legalize it.

Profiling is a tool used in many applications. Advertizers do it all the time to reach their intended market. Police investigations utilize profiling to narrow searches of criminal activity.

Legalizing could have an adverse effect though. It could possibly bring those people over to try and legally make a profit, and marijuana is most likely not the only drug they're dealing with along the border.

interstellardave
08-05-10, 17:31
Well pretty much all of my family is hispanic, and we look it. My brother has already been followed by cops while driving since this has been been passed and before you ask yes he was following road rules and going the speed limit. No doubt at least one of my family members or I will be pulled over by a cop because of this and it sucks. :/

I hate the whole immigration situation as much as everyone, but this IMO is not necessary at all.

This is not meant to be totally funny, or wise-cracking, (although I guess it is a little bit), but I'm actually serious. Your family should put bumper stickers on your car with the American flag or "I love America"... something like that. Perhaps that will cool the heels of suspicious cops! ;)

Draco
08-05-10, 17:33
Or make them more suspicious.

interstellardave
08-05-10, 17:44
Yeah, I guess there's no telling...

EmeraldFields
08-05-10, 18:36
http://i39.************/kx4ds.jpg

http://i44.************/212y1cm.gif

Ward Dragon
08-05-10, 18:43
http://i39.************/kx4ds.jpg

http://i44.************/212y1cm.gif

He actually should get pulled over for that -- blocking the driver's view out the back window is dangerous XD

Mad Tony
08-05-10, 18:48
http://i44.************/212y1cm.gifMight as well just have a Democrat bumper sticker instead. :p

EmeraldFields
08-05-10, 18:57
Might as well just have a Democrat bumper sticker instead. :p

It's not just Democrats who don't like it. :D

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36469.html

Mad Tony
08-05-10, 19:00
It's not just Democrats who don't like it. :D

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36469.htmlIt was just a joke. :p I haven't look into this law enough but some liberals do seem to be overreacting a bit by calling it racist.

EmeraldFields
08-05-10, 19:01
It was just a joke. :p I haven't look into this law enough but some liberals do seem to be overreacting a bit by calling it racist.

Heehee, I could tell you were joking. http://i44.************/33l32tw.gif

knightgames
08-05-10, 19:03
Legalizing could have an adverse effect though. It could possibly bring those people over to try and legally make a profit, and marijuana is most likely not the only drug they're dealing with along the border.

The majority of it is marijuana, though I'm sure there is cocaine too. If it's legalized, 'businesses' in the US would legally grow it therefore stamping out the illicit trade. From there you penalize the business owner for using illegals harvesting crops. I find alcohol a worse drug so I don't see why it isn't legal..... but that's a different discussion all together.

There are no easy answers. That's why I believe we need to hold fast to the law available now. Legally immigrated individuals can become U.S. citizens. Breaking the law to enter is not acceptable and should not be given free passes toward citizenship.

As a side note, Boston City Council has unanimously voted to halt business dealings with Arizona in protest of the Arizona Bill.

Lizard of Oz
08-05-10, 19:56
I'm strongly AGAINST this law.

One of the most obvious reasons is the inevitable racial profiling. One would you feel if the cop pulled you over just because you looked Mexican?

A lot of my teachers a strongly against it too. In fact, there's a group of about 20 teachers, mostly white, that are planning to drive to Arizona and spend there a week during the summer break. They said they will routinely drive theirs cars, some with Mexican flags, some with blasting Mexican music, some with old cars, and some with all of these combined.
When they return, they will share their story in a school convention.
I thought that kind of activism is a little extreme, but I am eager to hear their experience.



Concerning the whole illegal immigration issue,
I think that the U.S economy is based in them. I mean, who picks your delicious fresh fruit? Who processes your tasty McDonald's meat? Who builds your houses and cleans your streets? And they do all of that conveniently at the lowest wages.



The whole argument about "they don't pay taxes"
is invalid. Everyone pays taxes, and the little amount they get back is justified by the little amount they were paid in the first place.



The other argument about "they are taking our jobs"
is unfair as well. Since when do illegal immigrants are offered positions as company entrepreneurs? Legal citizens have it easy since the government pays a large amount of their education money. And those who don't, it's because their wage is already High and should be are able to afford it. My point is the legal citizens have an easy path to higher paying wages. If you have that opportunity, why would you want work in the lowest wage.



Of course, I understand why a lot of people are against illegal immigration, and I do think border security is a little under-secure.



But it's the criminals that should be getting deported, not hard-working laborers

interstellardave
08-05-10, 20:13
^^^ To be an illegal immigrant is to be a criminal. They are one in the same.

miss.haggard
08-05-10, 20:29
Legalizing could have an adverse effect though. It could possibly bring those people over to try and legally make a profit, and marijuana is most likely not the only drug they're dealing with along the border.

It could, but theres no way to tell until we do it. I say legalize it, then tax the living hell out of it.

wantafanta
08-05-10, 20:45
Illegals DO pay income taxes - 40% of them do, I believe. And they all pay state sales taxes, and property taxes through rent or direct ownership, not to mention that they help keep money flowing into public transportation. An estimated 10% of the Social Security fund comes from the payroll deductions of illegal aliens who will never claim the benefits. This money is put into a "suspense account."

Now, what to do about US companies who close plants and shops here in the US to relocate them to Mexico? Nobody ever talks about that! It's all legal, but it stinks. US companies paying dirt cheap wages to Mexicans in Mexico, then bringing the products back to the US, while US citizens can't find work. How is THAT legal????? I looked at my Wrangler blue jeans tag - made in Mexico. Ha!

Now, illegals who are here are not going back to Mexico. And they would pay a heckuva lot more in taxes if they were granted amnesty. And they would use less public aid. But, NOOOOOO, we can't have that, right?

Now, what to do with the US born kids of illegal immigrants? Deport their parents and make the kids wards of the state? What would that cost US taxpayers? The kids are US citizens. They belong here. Deport 12,000,000 people? That I gotta see.

Uzi master
08-05-10, 22:40
I'm strongly AGAINST this law.

One of the most obvious reasons is the inevitable racial profiling. One would you feel if the cop pulled you over just because you looked Mexican?

A lot of my teachers a strongly against it too. In fact, there's a group of about 20 teachers, mostly white, that are planning to drive to Arizona and spend there a week during the summer break. They said they will routinely drive theirs cars, some with Mexican flags, some with blasting Mexican music, some with old cars, and some with all of these combined.
When they return, they will share their story in a school convention.
I thought that kind of activism is a little extreme, but I am eager to hear their experience.



Concerning the whole illegal immigration issue,
I think that the U.S economy is based in them. I mean, who picks your delicious fresh fruit? Who processes your tasty McDonald's meat? Who builds your houses and cleans your streets? And they do all of that conveniently at the lowest wages.



The whole argument about "they don't pay taxes"
is invalid. Everyone pays taxes, and the little amount they get back is justified by the little amount they were paid in the first place.



The other argument about "they are taking our jobs"
is unfair as well. Since when do illegal immigrants are offered positions as company entrepreneurs? Legal citizens have it easy since the government pays a large amount of their education money. And those who don't, it's because their wage is already High and should be are able to afford it. My point is the legal citizens have an easy path to higher paying wages. If you have that opportunity, why would you want work in the lowest wage.



Of course, I understand why a lot of people are against illegal immigration, and I do think border security is a little under-secure.



But it's the criminals that should be getting deported, not hard-working laborers

I completley agree with you:hug:


funny thing though, some mexicans come ALL the way up to Canada, just a fact but a little silly:p

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 22:52
It could, but theres no way to tell until we do it. I say legalize it, then tax the living hell out of it.

Alright can't disagree there.

Quasimodo
08-05-10, 23:03
Illegals DO pay income taxes - 40% of them do, I believe.

I think it's awesome how you can slap a statistic on that when no one knows exactly how many illegals there are in the U.S :D

Alpharaider47
08-05-10, 23:05
I think it's awesome how you can slap a statistic on that when no one knows exactly how many illegals there are in the U.S :D

QFT lol. Don't we only have rough estimates?

WSOwen02
08-05-10, 23:30
I'll just pop in and say if the God damn federal government would do its job instead of trying to get its dirty, corrupt claws into everything else, there would have been no need for it to get to this point in the first place.

Ward Dragon
08-05-10, 23:35
I think it's awesome how you can slap a statistic on that when no one knows exactly how many illegals there are in the U.S :D

My first reaction was to wonder why it would be considered a good thing that apparently 60% don't pay taxes, but your point is even better :p

I'll just pop in and say if the God damn federal government would do its job instead of trying to get its dirty, corrupt claws into everything else, there would have been no need for it to get to this point in the first place.

:tmb:

voltz
08-05-10, 23:49
The whole argument about "they don't pay taxes"
is invalid. Everyone pays taxes, and the little amount they get back is justified by the little amount they were paid in the first place.



We have a problem with them making up social security numbers which is unacceptable come tax season. Tell me why we should allow them to continue doing this?

funny thing though, some mexicans come ALL the way up to Canada, just a fact but a little silly:p

Free health care?

knightgames
09-05-10, 02:14
Illegals DO pay income taxes - 40% of them do, I believe. And they all pay state sales taxes, and property taxes through rent or direct ownership, not to mention that they help keep money flowing into public transportation. An estimated 10% of the Social Security fund comes from the payroll deductions of illegal aliens who will never claim the benefits. This money is put into a "suspense account."

Now, what to do about US companies who close plants and shops here in the US to relocate them to Mexico? Nobody ever talks about that! It's all legal, but it stinks. US companies paying dirt cheap wages to Mexicans in Mexico, then bringing the products back to the US, while US citizens can't find work. How is THAT legal????? I looked at my Wrangler blue jeans tag - made in Mexico. Ha!

Now, illegals who are here are not going back to Mexico. And they would pay a heckuva lot more in taxes if they were granted amnesty. And they would use less public aid. But, NOOOOOO, we can't have that, right?

Now, what to do with the US born kids of illegal immigrants? Deport their parents and make the kids wards of the state? What would that cost US taxpayers? The kids are US citizens. They belong here. Deport 12,000,000 people? That I gotta see.


Deporting 12,000,000 people just isn't going to happen. It's ridiculous for anyone to expect that. And quite frankly, that's not what what we're talking about. We're talking about the right of Arizona to police their own boarders to deal with a situation that is out of hand.

Amnesty was given in 1988 by the Reagan administration, and in 22 years, relatively nothing has been done to stem the tide of illegal aliens or secure the border.

Employing illegals lowers the value of employment because contractors (for example) don't have to pay a fair wage - thus devaluing the job market, and ultimately increasing unemployment for skilled laborers. If we're going to give amnesty to illegals, then the pay scale will have rise. If that's going to happen, I'd rather the jobs go to U.S citizens.... or LEGAL immigrants who didn't break the law to enter the country. Taxes will still be paid.

I agree with you about jobs going overseas to circumvent paying fair wages here in the states. It weakens our manufacturing base. NAFTA was a bad idea. Unions, and human greed play their part too.

I don't agree with the anchor baby situation, though I don't see a way around it. If a child has been here a number of years you can't just up and displace him. I'd say 2 years or under he gets deported with the family.


Conversely. If it was U.S. citizens stealing into another country, what do you think would happen?

Draco
09-05-10, 17:46
I'm strongly AGAINST this law.

One of the most obvious reasons is the inevitable racial profiling. One would you feel if the cop pulled you over just because you looked Mexican?

Cops already do that, the only change now is that they can check your immigration status if applicable.

A lot of my teachers a strongly against it too. In fact, there's a group of about 20 teachers, mostly white, that are planning to drive to Arizona and spend there a week during the summer break. They said they will routinely drive theirs cars, some with Mexican flags, some with blasting Mexican music, some with old cars, and some with all of these combined.
When they return, they will share their story in a school convention.
I thought that kind of activism is a little extreme, but I am eager to hear their experience.

They likely won't have anything to report, unless they make stuff up. But you never know.


Concerning the whole illegal immigration issue,
I think that the U.S economy is based in them. I mean, who picks your delicious fresh fruit? Who processes your tasty McDonald's meat? Who builds your houses and cleans your streets? And they do all of that conveniently at the lowest wages.

Hiring undocumented individuals is an American Farming pasttime, but that is no basis for allowing it to continue in or spread to any industry.

The whole argument about "they don't pay taxes"
is invalid. Everyone pays taxes, and the little amount they get back is justified by the little amount they were paid in the first place.

Not everyone pays income taxes, do you honestly believe that a business that employs illegals will report to the IRS that it does?

The other argument about "they are taking our jobs"
is unfair as well. Since when do illegal immigrants are offered positions as company entrepreneurs? Legal citizens have it easy since the government pays a large amount of their education money. And those who don't, it's because their wage is already High and should be are able to afford it. My point is the legal citizens have an easy path to higher paying wages. If you have that opportunity, why would you want work in the lowest wage.

This is still America we are talking about right? Do you know how many jobs I was turned down for because they would rather hire five illegals for what they would pay me? Fifteen.

But it's the criminals that should be getting deported, not hard-working laborers

Since when was it not criminal to break the law?

Illegals DO pay income taxes - 40% of them do, I believe.

What you believe and what is fact are more often than not, two sides of a deep canyon.

And they all pay state sales taxes, and property taxes through rent or direct ownership, not to mention that they help keep money flowing into public transportation.

The benefits of illegals pale in comparison to the drawbacks. Crime rates, degradation of communities, and devaluation of the dollar when it leaves the country are all portions of the Illegal Immigrant Pie.

An estimated 10% of the Social Security fund comes from the payroll deductions of illegal aliens who will never claim the benefits. This money is put into a "suspense account."

That's a nice number that you pulled out of the twisting nether, Social Security is a completely different clusterfrack.

Now, what to do about US companies who close plants and shops here in the US to relocate them to Mexico? Nobody ever talks about that! It's all legal, but it stinks. US companies paying dirt cheap wages to Mexicans in Mexico, then bringing the products back to the US, while US citizens can't find work. How is THAT legal????? I looked at my Wrangler blue jeans tag - made in Mexico. Ha!

So two injustices make a liberal?

I think anything imported from foreign soil should have a 100% Tariff. And American companies that import stuff into America that could be manufactured in America, get 200% Tariffs.

Now, illegals who are here are not going back to Mexico. And they would pay a heckuva lot more in taxes if they were granted amnesty. And they would use less public aid. But, NOOOOOO, we can't have that, right?

I vote we annex Mexico and eliminate the issue entirely. The problem is Mexico after all.

Now, what to do with the US born kids of illegal immigrants? Deport their parents and make the kids wards of the state? What would that cost US taxpayers? The kids are US citizens. They belong here. Deport 12,000,000 people? That I gotta see.

I think there is at least 12 million authentic Americans that would help. Just raid the unemployment lists.

I think it's awesome how you can slap a statistic on that when no one knows exactly how many illegals there are in the U.S :D

Isn't it just?

I'll just pop in and say if the God damn federal government would do its job instead of trying to get its dirty, corrupt claws into everything else, there would have been no need for it to get to this point in the first place.

Hurray for State's Rights, but I think the federal government south of the border is the bigger problem. It is government policy to promote and encourage infiltration of the US by Mexican Nationals.

Quasimodo
21-05-10, 04:48
es3hq0XM-cw

Ward Dragon
21-05-10, 05:27
es3hq0XM-cw

So the law actually works and discourages illegal immigration? Cool. I don't see why this is a bad thing, nor is it a complete reversal to encourage legal immigration such as a guest-worker program with background checks.

Quasimodo
21-05-10, 05:36
I know, right? So much for objective news reporting.

Ward Dragon
21-05-10, 05:41
I know, right? So much for objective news reporting.

There's a reason I don't pay much attention to CNN and that would be it XD If they were pushing their agenda any further down our throats, they'd hit stomach acid :p

Draco
21-05-10, 23:52
They just left? Sounds good to me, and all from an overreaction no less.

amiro1989
21-05-10, 23:55
Evil, ****ing evil. You have no idea how much this annoys, this will affect me and my family. Honestly, my brother told me about it and I was unbelivably ****ed.

I get people are sick of the all the illegal immagrants, but this is just not necessary at all.

:tmb:

voltz
22-05-10, 00:17
So the law actually works and discourages illegal immigration? Cool. I don't see why this is a bad thing, nor is it a complete reversal to encourage legal immigration such as a guest-worker program with background checks.

I really think they're going the wrong way about trying to get them back. The real problem is people in other states are still looking for employment and this would have been a wonderful opportunity for trying to fill in the shoes by telling others Arizona is a wonder place to raise a future. With those boarder-hoppers coming back, we ain't getting the right people we really need there.

Ward Dragon
22-05-10, 02:34
I really think they're going the wrong way about trying to get them back. The real problem is people in other states are still looking for employment and this would have been a wonderful opportunity for trying to fill in the shoes by telling others Arizona is a wonder place to raise a future. With those boarder-hoppers coming back, we ain't getting the right people we really need there.

Good point. The video said the companies would have to prove they couldn't find any American workers before they'd be allowed to hire guest workers. It wasn't clear to what extent the companies would have to look for American workers, though. Maybe encouraging American workers to come to Arizona could be a part of the plan.

Draco
22-05-10, 02:37
I don't even like driving through Arizona, well except up near Flagstaff, much less the idea of living there.

wantafanta
22-05-10, 03:16
My first reaction was to wonder why it would be considered a good thing that apparently 60% don't pay taxes, but your point is even better :p
:tmb:

No, the point is not better, in fact it misses the mark by a mile, because some misinformed individuals are claiming that illegal Mexicans don't pay any taxes at all. 40% is better than none. And that is the point.

As for "slapping on statistics" - I don't "slap" them on. I looked them up. I believe in supporting my remarks with facts. But hey, that's just me.

Now ---- what's happening with this AZ bill is just immigrant bashing. This is what frustrated voters do when they feel helpless. The economy is in the dumps, Washington is tied up with partisan bickering, and the poor voter feels disenfranchised. So he takes out his wrath on the weak. This is what the animal kingdom does. A pack of dogs will turn on the weak or sickly one. Baboons will do the same thing. The NAZIs did it to the Jews in the 1930s. And now some Klod governor in AZ is trying to curry favor with AZ voters by beating up on Mexicans. It is unAmerican, and it should embarrass AZ residents.

You don't think there are a dozen more serious problems in the country than illegal immigrants? Like the oil slick in the gulf? Unending wars in the mid-east? Sky rocketing national debt? Job cuts everywhere? Soaring medical costs?

But noooooooo, the immigrant bashers get their pants in a wad about some illegal dishwasher in an Arizona restaurant or some poor shmoe out in the Arizona desert picking green beans. Yeah, brilliant. Let's worry about who picks our green beans. LOL!

Ward Dragon
22-05-10, 03:32
No, the point is not better, in fact it misses the mark by a mile, because some misinformed individuals are claiming that illegal Mexicans don't pay any taxes at all. 40% is better than none. And that is the point.

As for "slapping on statistics" - I don't "slap" them on. I looked them up. I believe in supporting my remarks with facts. But hey, that's just me.

But where did these statistics come from? How can such a figure be determined when we don't even know how many illegal immigrants there are in the country? I can make up statistics to say whatever I want too.



Now ---- what's happening with this AZ bill is just immigrant bashing. This is what frustrated voters do when they feel helpless. The economy is in the dumps, Washington is tied up with partisan bickering, and the poor voter feels disenfranchised. So he takes out his wrath on the weak. This is what the animal kingdom does. A pack of dogs will turn on the weak or sickly one. Baboons will do the same thing. The NAZIs did it to the Jews in the 1930s. And now some Klod governor in AZ is trying to curry favor with AZ voters by beating up on Mexicans. It is unAmerican, and it should embarrass AZ residents.

You don't think there are a dozen more serious problems in the country than illegal immigrants? Like the oil slick in the gulf? Unending wars in the mid-east? Sky rocketing national debt? Job cuts everywhere? Soaring medical costs?

But noooooooo, the immigrant bashers get their pants in a wad about some illegal dishwasher in an Arizona restaurant or some poor shmoe out in the Arizona desert picking green beans. Yeah, brilliant. Let's worry about who picks our green beans. LOL!

Any excuse to call the opposition Nazis, right? That just sounds like a bunch of America-bashing to me. Illegal immigration is a huge problem and the federal government is doing nothing about it. Police already ask for identification from every person they arrest or pull over anyway, so what's the big deal about saying they can't look the other way anymore if the person happens to be an illegal immigrant and doesn't have ID? It's just enforcing the laws that already exist.

voltz
22-05-10, 04:00
Wanna know how illegals files taxes? They steal social security numbers.

This is why the tax excuse does not work.

Lemmie
22-05-10, 08:51
I enjoyed this story. :D

Dora the Explorer: Illegal Alien? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8698065.stm)

Glašon
22-05-10, 08:59
I enjoyed this story. :D

Dora the Explorer: Illegal Alien? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8698065.stm)

:vlol: Poor Dora! I can just picture it now, "Where's the immigration officer? Can you see the immigration officer?" *pause* "Where?" "There he is!" :D