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Johnnay
31-05-10, 12:21
http://news.google.com/news/more?hl=en&q=Israel&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dGpLWAUYICPSCbM0vScjKp3RL-gsM&ei=mKgDTLKfO4WecYCchY0K&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&cd=1&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQqgIoADAA

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/deadly+last+moments+Gaza+flotilla/3092011/story.html


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jyUTZNhx73J8xTDzkgksqYeEwR8w

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Palestinian-Aid-Convoy-Two-Killed-As-Israeli-Navy-Clashes-With-Boats-Sailing-To-Gaza-Strip/Article/201005415640829?lpos=World_News_Right_Promo_Region _0&lid=ARTICLE_15640829_Palestinian_Aid_Convoy%3A_Two _Killed_As_Israeli_Navy_Clashes_With_Boats_Sailing _To_Gaza_Strip

which brings me to the recent events of the Israeli army which invaded a Gaza Flotilla killing around 20 people mainly Turks. They clearly do not want the people of Gaza to get any type of aid.. no wonder Gaza now is the worlds largest jail...... oh boy Israel is going to get its taste of medicine very soon...

i mean how can such apartheids like the Israelis in particular invade a peaceful flotilla just giving food, shelter, medicine to people who are in need of it. they invaded it and killed 10-20 people. the rest are in detention... Israels act must be condemed around the world

discuss your views about this

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 12:25
I was wondering how long it would be before a thread like this popped up.

It's a developing story so right now I'm refraining from taking a position on this. Knee-jerk reactions are never good.

Underworld2008
31-05-10, 12:31
I was wondering how long it would be before a thread like this popped up.

It's a developing story so right now I'm refraining from taking a position on this. Knee-jerk reactions are never good.

agreed,

however its really sad and all :/

Peanut
31-05-10, 12:32
Sigh.. :/

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 12:36
I'm quite worried about how the Jewish community will be affected by this globally. I remember hearing back at the beginning of last year Jews were getting attacked randomly in London because of the conflict in Gaza.

Johnnay
31-05-10, 12:56
01ia4GLtzKs

is this true.... israel claims that the activitists have close ties to Al Qaeda...... WTF are thse bimbos on about*sigh*

Lemmie
31-05-10, 13:15
Oh dear. :(

We'll see how the story develops I guess.

BBC News article. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm)

Forwen
31-05-10, 13:16
is this true.... israel claims that the activitists have close ties to Al Qaeda...... WTF are thse bimbos on about*sigh*

So you can confirm they don't?

Johnnay
31-05-10, 13:19
So you can confirm they don't?

I'm pretty sure activists who want to give aid won't have close ties to Al Qaeda

besides Israel confirms that they do... Which is ridiculous to me

Forwen
31-05-10, 13:26
I'm pretty sure activists who want to give aid won't have close ties to Al Qaeda

besides Israel confirms that they do... Which is ridiculous to me

By attacking an aid convoy out of the blue Israel would sustain tremendous diplomatic damage (which is happening now, Turkey used to be reasonably friendly with Israel) and gain little. Their policies are cynical but they're not stupid. There's clearly more background to it than either side lets on - we might never know.

I don't get the other part of your post.

Johnnay
31-05-10, 13:30
By attacking an aid convoy out of the blue Israel would sustain tremendous diplomatic damage (which is happening now, Turkey used to be reasonably friendly with Israel) and gain little. Their policies are cynical but they're not stupid. There's clearly more background to it than either side lets on - we might never know.

I don't get the other part of your post.

My other part of the post was that Israel confirms that these activists ITO have close ties to Al Qaeda and Hamas. Seriously they love Bluffing.

I hope America isn't slient on Israel this time.( which I don't think it will happen)

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 13:38
My other part of the post was that Israel confirms that these activists ITO have close ties to Al Qaeda and Hamas. Seriously they love Bluffing.Can you confirm otherwise?

You're jumping to a number of conclusions here. It's a developing story.

Catracoth
31-05-10, 13:39
It's a developing story so right now I'm refraining from taking a position on this. Knee-jerk reactions are never good.

Smart move; I'm following in your footsteps.

Johnnay
31-05-10, 13:40
Can you confirm otherwise?

You're jumping to a number of conclusions here. It's a developing story.

Write "Israel al Qaeda" on google news and you'll get some results

plus the YouTube clip I posted said that too

ShadyCroft
31-05-10, 13:53
I'm quite worried about how the Jewish community will be affected by this globally. I remember hearing back at the beginning of last year Jews were getting attacked randomly in London because of the conflict in Gaza.

that's one of the things am worried about.

For me, its always been Israeli or Jewish people, and the Israeli government, and it saddens me with something happens like this and a lot of people will start generalizing.
I know a few Israeli people and they're the nicest people ever. I'm worried about what you said about Jews being attacked because of Gaza.

I understand hundreds of Palestinians are dying and am not taking sides and not being sympathetic.

We'll have to see...

Lost_Soul
31-05-10, 14:10
Well, I also won't decide on this fully, until I know the full story from both sides.
But I too am most worried about the Jewish people. I read intenet comments in an estonian site and wow. Let me just say I have never seen so much antisemitism in my entire life. They were talking about burning down synagogues ffs. (Let me just state my hate for estonians here, blind ignorant people just jumping on the bandwagon, most worried about foreign problems but not caring that their own country is going to ****. So glad I'm half Russian. Off topic, sorry)
Isn't anyone wondering why those peace activists had weapons? Or why they wouldn't let Israel deliver the aid themselves? Ah well, just have to wait and see how this goes :/

Capt. Murphy
31-05-10, 14:19
I'll finally comment since I've been itching to for a while now.

You never know. Suicide bombers are willing to die (kill themselves). So it's possible these people went in under the guise of activists knowing the Israeli army would find out they're a potential danger and would get killed, there by making Israel look like the bad guys. :(

[/speculation]

I mean seriously. I'm sure they'd have a very good reason to do what they did if they knew something was up. It's not like they were using them for target practice, or killing them just for the fun of it.

But maybe I'm just biased towards the Jewish/Israeli people.

Cochrane
31-05-10, 14:23
I agree with Mad Tony here (yes, it does happen :D): Without more detail, it is impossible to form an opinion here.

However, I think Israel is handling the PR aspect of this completely wrong. They blocked off all news reporting about this. What they should be doing is holding press conferences and inviting journalists to inspect the boats. As it stands, the news about this are dominated by the Palestinian side, which are definitely not unbiased. That canít be in Israelís best interests.

Lost_Soul
31-05-10, 14:25
I read that 1 of the 6 ships really weren't peaceful activists. That the people on the ship Mavi Marmara had members of an extremist organisation and they opened fire first and the Israelis had to defend themselves (don't know if that's true or not, but yeah...)

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 14:26
Israel needs to be stopped. The UN should revoke their status as a 'state' and the US would save BILLIONS if they cut back on aid to Israel.

You can't go around saying "our country is only for Jewish people" and then attack refugees with guns, tanks, planes, illegal chemicals and expect people to support you.

They are as militant and irresponsible as Iran. More so because Israel acts on their threats and often times acts before threatening. Iran says some really nasty things, but the only people they've attacked in the past 30 years are their own people.

It's just astonishing that countries go around saying "Iran & Korea are evil" but Israel does things like this and they're considered an ally!? For what!?

amore-guy
31-05-10, 14:31
I'll finally comment since I've been itching to for a while now.

You never know. Suicide bombers are willing to die (kill themselves). So it's possible these people went in under the guise of activists knowing the Israeli army would find out they're a potential danger and would get killed, there by making Israel look like the bad guys. :(

[/speculation]

I mean seriously. I'm sure they'd have a very good reason to do what they did if they knew something was up. It's not like they were using them for target practice, or killing them just for the fun of it.

But maybe I'm just biased towards the Jewish/Israeli people.

LOOL, never gets old..
There is nothing wrong with Israel, its very peaceful but all the countries are being very mean to it... urgh.. i cant believe the western world believe that crap

If you really dont know politics, then never visit this thread.. im talkin to everyone here! And i think this thread will be closed soon because their will be another debate lol

Capt. Murphy
31-05-10, 14:33
It's just astonishing that countries go around saying "Iran & Korea are evil" but Israel does things like this and they're considered an ally!? For what!?

How about self defense? They're an established nation and have every right to defend themselves against terrorists.

How many jewish suicide bombers have you heard about lately in the news? Huh?

amore-guy
31-05-10, 14:34
How about self defense? They're an established nation and have every right to defend themselves against terrorists.

How many jewish suicide bombers have you heard about lately in the news? Huh?

You obviously know nothing.. i feel bad for you

Capt. Murphy
31-05-10, 14:35
You obviously know nothing.. i feel bad for you

You obviously know everything. Feel free to share your *chuckle* ....wisdumb. ;)

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 14:36
Israel needs to be stopped. The UN should revoke their status as a 'state' and the US would save BILLIONS if they cut back on aid to Israel.

You can't go around saying "our country is only for Jewish people" and then attack refugees with guns, tanks, planes, illegal chemicals and expect people to support you.

They are as militant and irresponsible as Iran. More so because Israel acts on their threats and often times acts before threatening. Iran says some really nasty things, but the only people they've attacked in the past 30 years are their own people.

It's just astonishing that countries go around saying "Iran & Korea are evil" but Israel does things like this and they're considered an ally!? For what!?You're only telling one side of the story.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 14:40
You obviously know everything. Feel free to share your *chuckle* ....wisdumb. ;)

I dont think you have experienced explosions or bombs dropping from the sky like rain did you? No
Listen, the reason why i feel bad, is that you are still blind... And i dont blame you, but the media in your country is the one to blame. Have you ever traveled to the middle east at least?

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 14:42
How about self defense? They're an established nation and have every right to defend themselves against terrorists.

How many jewish suicide bombers have you heard about lately in the news? Huh?

SELF defense!? Self-defense would imply that they reacted...Israel is ALWAYS the first to act. Most often preemptively.

There are more UN resolutions against Israel's actions then there were against Iraq!!

As an American did you know that Israel attacked the USS Liberty in a similar manner to this aid ship? Israel thought the US vessel was infringing upon their sovereignty and killed Americans without warning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Lemmie
31-05-10, 14:43
How about self defense? They're an established nation and have every right to defend themselves against terrorists.

How many jewish suicide bombers have you heard about lately in the news? Huh?

I can understand not wanting to give the Hamas government of Gaza any leeway, as they are a group who deny the existence of the state of Israel and encourage acts of terrorism against Israelis.

But waging a war of attrition against the population of Gaza, compared by the UN to a "medieval siege", is deplorable.

suli
31-05-10, 14:45
You're only telling one side of the story.

palastine are defending themselves and that is that. if the international commiunty arent gonna say anything, then Palastine are entitled to do what they can do. dont forget that the last upsurge the one that started in 2001 was started because of Israel army killing Muhammed Al Durra.. a 10 years old boy who was in a toy shop buying toys with his dad.

oh no am I anti-semitic now?

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 14:48
palastine are defending themselves and that is that. if the international commiunty arent gonna say anything, then Palastine are entitled to do what they can do. dont forget that the last upsurge the one that started in 2001 was started because of Israel army killing Muhammed Al Durra.. a 10 years old boy who was in a toy shop buying toys with his dad.They can both be aggressors, people just seem to conveniently forget acts of Palestinian aggression.

Capt. Murphy
31-05-10, 14:50
Okay. I'll just tell you the impression of what I've gotten from the U.S./Western/"Great Satan" media about what has happened before over there in the 'Holy Land'.

Al-quaeda, Al-Aqsa, and whatever else mickey mouse club they've got - they hide amongst civilians and fire rocket propelled grenades or missiles into the Israeli territory, so Israel has to bomb houses they suspect are housing terrorists.

And another thing I've been led to believe is that Israel is willing to share their land.. THEIR Land, but other people want it to be cleansed of any 'heathens' and unbelievers.

So. I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me why I'm wrong in those few aspects and correct me.

Cochrane
31-05-10, 14:51
Israelís foreign politics are questionable, to say the least. It is my impression that Israel is not really interested in friendly relations with their neighbors. Instead, they prefer to show military force against anything and anyone ó and get similar responses (in the form of terrorism) in return. I think it is really no surprise that this doesnít give good results.

Of course, the same can be said about many of Israelís neighbors and in particular about most organizations in Palestine. Many of them apparently like to use the constant "threat" of Israel to hide and suppress domestic politics issues, and hence have no interest in peaceful relations with the country. That most arab governments really care what happens to the children in the Gaza strip is something I find hard to believe given their actions.

The difference, of course, is that Israel is a modern, western, democratic state. They donít have to worry about oppressing the opposition, so Israel is really the one that is most free to change the relations here. And as long as Israel shows no real interest in doing that, there wonít be any lasting peace in the area.

suli
31-05-10, 14:54
They can both be aggressors, people just seem to conveniently forget acts of Palestinian aggression.

I didnt forget anything..but it's not logical to come to someone's country and say "hey look it's our country..move away we're going to build a house on ruins of yours".. srsly? if someone did that to me I would defend myself thats for sure. Israel should be back to where they come from.. jewish wasnt the only relegion born in Palastine..also christianity was born there. so why dont christian come there and say hey it's land of christians? cause it's not logical. so israel get your ass out of Palastine or except some action from palastine.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 14:55
They can both be aggressors, people just seem to conveniently forget acts of Palestinian aggression.

Palestinian aggression? Ooh! they have nukes now?! Didnt know that!
There is nothing such as Palestinian aggression, because its like comparing a lion to a baby monkey! get it? (lol) The power isnt the same on both sides

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 14:56
I didnt forget anything..but it's not logical to come to someone's country and say "hey look it's our country..move away we're going to build a house on ruins of yours".. srsly? if someone did that to me I would defend myself thats for sure. Israel should be back to where they come from.. jewish wasnt the only relegion born in Palastine..also christianity was born there. so why dont christian come there and say hey it's land of christians? cause it's not logical. so israel get your ass out of Palastine or except some action from palastine.So basically you're condoning terrorism against Israel?

Palestinian aggression? Ooh! they have nukes now?! Didnt know that!
There is nothing such as Palestinian aggression, because its like comparing a lion to a baby monkey! get it? (lol) The power isnt the same on both sidesWhat have nukes got to do with it? Israel has never used its nukes and I doubt they're stupid enough to use them in future either.

Of course there is. What else do you call all those rockets attacks? Just because Israel are a lot stronger than the Palestinians doesn't mean the weaker side isn't also an aggressor.

suli
31-05-10, 14:57
So basically you're condoning terrorism against Israel?

as your friends are saying it's okay to bomb houses in palastine as long as they "suspect" that there are bombs there ;)

amore-guy
31-05-10, 14:58
Okay. I'll just tell you the impression of what I've gotten from the U.S./Western/"Great Satan" media about what has happened before over there in the 'Holy Land'.

Al-quaeda, Al-Aqsa, and whatever else mickey mouse club they've got - they hide amongst civilians and fire rocket propelled grenades or missiles into the Israeli territory, so Israel has to bomb houses they suspect are housing terrorists.

And another thing I've been led to believe is that Israel is willing to share their land.. THEIR Land, but other people want it to be cleansed of any 'heathens' and unbelievers.

So. I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me why I'm wrong in those few aspects and correct me.

You just said wrong stuff and you are asking me why you are wrong?

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 14:58
as your friends are saying it's okay to bomb houses in palastine as long as they "suspect" that there are bombs there ;)Who are my friends? :confused:

suli
31-05-10, 14:59
Who are my friends? :confused:

ok I would be intrested to know your take on the Israeli violent against Palastine...

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 15:00
I was wondering how long it would be before a thread like this popped up.

It's a developing story so right now I'm refraining from taking a position on this. Knee-jerk reactions are never good.
I agree with this.

Capt. Murphy
31-05-10, 15:00
I thought that area was renamed 'Palestine' by some Roman or Greek emperor as an 'in your face Israel' kind of insult. Jewish or Palestinian. They're both son's of Abraham, but Ishmael was the son of an Egyptian slave. So, the descendants of that branch on the family tree aren't the sole possessors of 'that land'. But that doesn't mean they're any less entitled to it. They're just not SOLELY entitled to it.

:(

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:02
So basically you're condoning terrorism against Israel?

What have nukes got to do with it? Israel has never used its nukes and I doubt they're stupid enough to use them in future either.

Of course there is. What else do you call all those rockets attacks? Just because Israel are a lot stronger than the Palestinians doesn't mean the weaker side isn't also an aggressor.

For god sake these attaks are nothing compared to the one that Israel have done! they Arent even killing the citizens.. they are killing soldiers, do you know why? Because you have no idea how Israel is "cleaning" there.

Cochrane
31-05-10, 15:02
I didnt forget anything..but it's not logical to come to someone's country and say "hey look it's our country..move away we're going to build a house on ruins of yours".. srsly? if someone did that to me I would defend myself thats for sure. Israel should be back to where they come from.. jewish wasnt the only relegion born in Palastine..also christianity was born there. so why dont christian come there and say hey it's land of christians? cause it's not logical. so israel get your ass out of Palastine or except some action from palastine.

Palestinian aggression? Ooh! they have nukes now?! Didnt know that!
There is nothing such as Palestinian aggression, because its like comparing a lion to a baby monkey! get it? (lol) The power isnt the same on both sides

You just said wrong stuff and you are asking me why you are wrong?

Dudes, if you have a simple explanation where one side is bad and one side is good, then your explanation is plain wrong. Some of you have some interesting points, but your assumption that Israel is the devil and Palestine hides that. Letís be honest here: Organizations like Fatah or Hamas have no interest in peace, let alone driving Israel out of the area. Their only justification for existence, and the only justification for the level of corruption and dictatorship that they exert, is the perceived threat from Israel, so they are doing everything they possibly can to keep that threat alive.

Lemmie
31-05-10, 15:05
Okay. I'll just tell you the impression of what I've gotten from the U.S./Western/"Great Satan" media about what has happened before over there in the 'Holy Land'.

Al-quaeda, Al-Aqsa, and whatever else mickey mouse club they've got - they hide amongst civilians and fire rocket propelled grenades or missiles into the Israeli territory, so Israel has to bomb houses they suspect are housing terrorists.

Al-Aqsa is the name of a mosque in Jerusalem, which is very important to the Palestinians. Al-Qaeda is not a very evident player in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The main issue is with the democratically elected representatives of Gaza, which is Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas is an extreme organisation that refuses to recognise the state of Israel and sponsors acts of terrorism on Israelis. It is they who have been responsible for much of the suicide bombings in Israel over the last two decades.

Fatah is the more moderate representative of the Palestinians in the West Bank, and the leader of Fatah is also the leader of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, Mahmoud Abbas.


And another thing I've been led to believe is that Israel is willing to share their land.. THEIR Land, but other people want it to be cleansed of any 'heathens' and unbelievers.


The question of land ownership in Israel and Palestine is a tricky one. Certainly there was a sizeable Jewish and Zionist community in Palestine before the British Mandate leading to the creation of the state of Israel. But the area has been in the hands of a succession of empires and kingdoms for centuries, so the claim of the natural home of the Jews in Israel (based on the Old Testament) is a pretty insubstantial one historically.

It is odd to say that Israel is willing to share their lands when most of it was won by right of conquest against a Palestinian Arab majority. Besides, Israel has shown that it certainly not willing to share in some instances - illegal settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, as well as forcing Palestinians to leave or sell their homes so that Jewish families can be housed in them. There is also the undeniable racist and sectarian aspect of Israeli society between Jews and Muslims.

Neither side is innocent in this conflict. But the Palestinians attract sympathy because as it stands, they are the underdog against a militarily strong and ideologically zealous Israel.

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 15:07
The difference, of course, is that Israel is a modern, western, democratic state. They donít have to worry about oppressing the opposition, so Israel is really the one that is most free to change the relations here. And as long as Israel shows no real interest in doing that, there wonít be any lasting peace in the area.

More than once Israel has tried giving back land "for peace" only to have that land used against them in more attacks. It's no wonder they are suspicious and reluctant to put themselves at risk again.

As for this particular event, I believe the news reports that say the "aid ship" had activists who fired first on the Israeli soldiers. You're right that Israel probably should have handled the PR a lot better though.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:07
Dudes, if you have a simple explanation where one side is bad and one side is good, then your explanation is plain wrong. Some of you have some interesting points, but your assumption that Israel is the devil and Palestine hides that. Letís be honest here: Organizations like Fatah or Hamas have no interest in peace, let alone driving Israel out of the area. Their only justification for existence, and the only justification for the level of corruption and dictatorship that they exert, is the perceived threat from Israel, so they are doing everything they possibly can to keep that threat alive.

What im trying to say is: There is no peace.. period and there wont be any.. its a fact and we both know why

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:09
ok I would be intrested to know your take on the Israeli violent against Palastine...Read my first post in this thread.

Going to answer my question now?

they Arent even killing the citizens..Oh?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/world/middleeast/13mideast.html

Not exactly killing I know but still a civilian. Both sides have blood on their hands.

Lemmie
31-05-10, 15:09
As for this particular event, I believe the news reports that say the "aid ship" had activists who fired first on the Israeli soldiers.

Why do you believe that? :confused:

If they did have them, then that was stupid of them, as well as to use them against Israeli forces either defensively or offensively. But from what I have read there is no independent confirmation of the fact.

suli
31-05-10, 15:09
Dudes, if you have a simple explanation where one side is bad and one side is good, then your explanation is plain wrong. Some of you have some interesting points, but your assumption that Israel is the devil and Palestine hides that. Letís be honest here: Organizations like Fatah or Hamas have no interest in peace, let alone driving Israel out of the area. Their only justification for existence, and the only justification for the level of corruption and dictatorship that they exert, is the perceived threat from Israel, so they are doing everything they possibly can to keep that threat alive.

I do not support Fatah or Hamas in any way... they are horrible. but dont forget that the previous president of the israeli goverment Aeril Sharon who held the position for five years was a WAR CONVICT..and that also say something about the israeli goverment.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:10
Read my first post in this thread.

Going to answer my question now?

Oh?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/world/middleeast/13mideast.html

Not exactly killing I know but still a civilian. Both sides have blood on their hands.

How many Palestinian child died for now? 2? 4? 100? I dont think so ;)

ShadyCroft
31-05-10, 15:10
First of all, both are being aggressive. Yes, Israel may have the guns, and Palestinians only rocks, but they're both doing act to hurt.
I'm not taking sides, but am sorry, its very logical. Some people are just considering size rather than intention.


Israel is willing to share their land.. THEIR Land, but other people want it to be cleansed of any 'heathens' and unbelievers.


You just said wrong stuff and you are asking me why you are wrong?

As far as I know, there have been many attempts at this throughout history...unless my school years were nothing but an illusion. There were attempts at diving the land between Israeli and Palestinians, but Arab countries rejected it as far as I know.

I remember this one from school, Balfour Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917)...but this is one of many agreements.
Sorry, I'm not good in history :p

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 15:12
Why do you believe that? :confused:

If they did have them, then that was stupid of them, as well as to use them against Israeli forces either defensively or offensively. But from what I have read there is no independent confirmation of the fact.

It's consistent with all past information I know about what goes on in that region. Israel isn't stupid and they wouldn't fire upon a defenseless aid ship. The various terrorist organizations, however, favor doing incredibly stupid things and getting killed in the process just to make Israel look like the bad guys. I'm sure once more information comes out, it will be confirmed that the "aid ship" was armed.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:13
First of all, both are being aggressive. Yes, Israel may have the guns, and Palestinians only rocks, but they're both doing act to hurt.
I'm not taking sides, but am sorry, its very logical. Some people are just considering size rather than intention.



As far as I know, there have been many attempts at this throughout history...unless my school years were nothing but an illusion. There were attempts at diving the land between Israeli and Palestinians, but Arab countries rejected it as far as I know.

I remember this one from school, Balfour Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917)...but this is one of many agreements.
Sorry, I'm not good in history :p

LOOL:p good boy

suli
31-05-10, 15:15
oh guys nooooooo LOOOOL..so Israel offered peace to Palastine huh? whats the use of peace of they already took their houses and killed thousnds if not millions of children now? whats the use if the Israeli lives a decent life and have a job and a house and the palastini works dont even recive a minimum wage salary? yes they are offering peace but with a lot of a compromisation that a decent human being wouldnt except.

tonyme
31-05-10, 15:15
Any comments from the Israeli government about this?

Lemmie
31-05-10, 15:20
It's consistent with all past information I know about what goes on in that region. Israel isn't stupid and they wouldn't fire upon a defenseless aid ship. The various terrorist organizations, however, favor doing incredibly stupid things and getting killed in the process just to make Israel look like the bad guys. I'm sure once more information comes out, it will be confirmed that the "aid ship" was armed.

I'm looking at the Free Gaza website just now, but their information is spotty and of course, biased in their favour.

I was looking to see if there were any details about the ships themselves. Here's one of their posts on the home page;


(Cyprus, June 1, 2010, 6:30 am) Under darkness of night, Israeli commandoes dropped from a helicopter onto the Turkish passenger ship, Mavi Marmara, and began to shoot the moment their feet hit the deck. They fired directly into the crowd of civilians asleep. According to the live video from the ship, two have been killed, and 31 injured. Al Jazeera has just confirmed the numbers.

Streaming video shows the Israeli soldiers shooting at civilians, and our last SPOT beacon said, “HELP, we are being contacted by the Israelis.”

We know nothing about the other five boats. Israel says they are taking over the boats.

The coalition of Free Gaza Movement (FG), European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), the Perdana Global Peace Organisation , Ship to Gaza Greece, Ship to Gaza Sweden, and the International Committee to Lift the Siege on Gaza appeal to the international community to demand that Israel stop their brutal attack on civilians delivering vitally needed aid to the imprisoned Palestinians of Gaza and permit the ships to continue on their way.

The attack has happened in international waters, 75 miles off the coast of Israel, in direct violation of international law.


I expect that these are the organisations involved in setting up the flotilla. It is certainly consistent with other news, as Greece has severed military co-operation deals with Israel and Sweden has been among the most vocal of those condemning the action.

EDIT: Insani Yardim Vakfi is an organisation based in Turkey, which explains Turkey's anger to an extent as well. A cooling of relations between Turkey and Israel also explains their reaction.

It also appears that the attack did happen in international waters, outside Israeli jurisdiction.

I also assume that when they say;

"We know nothing about the other five boats. Israel says they are taking over the boats."

It was a statement by those on the first boat at the time rather than the organisation's words.

They also claim that the ships were inspected by Turkish Cypriot authorities before they left the port of Famagusta, but the posts don't give a lot of detail and are somewhat poorly written.

Free Gaza's website. (http://www.freegaza.org/)

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 15:21
palastine are defending themselves and that is that. if the international commiunty arent gonna say anything, then Palastine are entitled to do what they can do. dont forget that the last upsurge the one that started in 2001 was started because of Israel army killing Muhammed Al Durra.. a 10 years old boy who was in a toy shop buying toys with his dad.
oh no am I anti-semitic now?

It is as much more self-defense on behalf of Palestinians than Israel because of what Israel has done not just to Palestine, but Syria, Jordan, Egypt.

They can both be aggressors, people just seem to conveniently forget acts of Palestinian aggression.

Hamas! The majority of Palestinians are in no way associated with extremists. Do not confuse the people with those that launch rockets into Israel. There are millions of Palestinian refugees. there's no such thing as an Israeli refugee.

Okay. I'll just tell you the impression of what I've gotten from the U.S./Western/"Great Satan" media about what has happened before over there in the 'Holy Land'. Al-quaeda, Al-Aqsa, and whatever else mickey mouse club they've got - they hide amongst civilians and fire rocket propelled grenades or missiles into the Israeli territory, so Israel has to bomb houses they suspect are housing terrorists. And another thing I've been led to believe is that Israel is willing to share their land.. THEIR Land, but other people want it to be cleansed of any 'heathens' and unbelievers.
So. I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me why I'm wrong in those few aspects and correct me.

Israel isn't willing to "share their land" at all. They aren't willing to give Palestinians the same freedoms & rights as they do to Israelis. They even want the children of Thai immigrant workers to be deported to thailand even though those children were born in israel and speak hebrew. Their parents can stay but their children can't because "israel is for the jewish people."

Israel prides itself on the Mossad. One of the supposedly best trained intelligence agencies in the world. because of this they could use far more covert measures in eradicating extremist cells in Palestinian territories, but instead choose to use great big grand gestures like bombs without warning civilians. In 2008 they even attacked a United Nations school without so much as an apology.

So basically you're condoning terrorism against Israel?What have nukes got to do with it? Israel has never used its nukes and I doubt they're stupid enough to use them in future either.Of course there is. What else do you call all those rockets attacks? Just because Israel are a lot stronger than the Palestinians doesn't mean the weaker side isn't also an aggressor.

It was only called terrorism after 2001. Israel jumped on the bandwagon of "fighting terrorism" to condone their actions. To the israeli government there's no different between a child throwing stones at a soldier and a Hamas militant with a rocket launcher. The nuclear issue is that Israel has them, but refuses to acknowledge this or even sign int'l agreements. they behave as if they are 'above' everyone else in the world and it isn't right. Israel is far more likely (and capable) of firing off nukes than either Iran or North Korea.

Those rocket attacks do very little compared to what israel retaliates with. the rocket attacks in 2008 killed 3 people. Israel retaliated by destroying entire communities, killing 100s and then not allowing international aid agencies into Gaza to help innocent victims.

Dudes, if you have a simple explanation where one side is bad and one side is good, then your explanation is plain wrong. Some of you have some interesting points, but your assumption that Israel is the devil and Palestine hides that. Letís be honest here: Organizations like Fatah or Hamas have no interest in peace, let alone driving Israel out of the area. Their only justification for existence, and the only justification for the level of corruption and dictatorship that they exert, is the perceived threat from Israel, so they are doing everything they possibly can to keep that threat alive.

It isn't as simple as good vs. bad and they aren't assumptions. Those that you quote have lived through the violence with Israel. They are THERE you're not. It isn't an assumption. it's insider knowledge.

Your argument for Fatah and Hamas applies to Israel as well. The israeli government is corrupt and rules like a dictatorship. what they perceive as a threat from the Palestinian territories gives them justification for bull dozing people's homes and creating their own settlements.

Cochrane
31-05-10, 15:22
More than once Israel has tried giving back land "for peace" only to have that land used against them in more attacks. It's no wonder they are suspicious and reluctant to put themselves at risk again.

As for this particular event, I believe the news reports that say the "aid ship" had activists who fired first on the Israeli soldiers. You're right that Israel probably should have handled the PR a lot better though.
Youíre right, of course. However, I still think that Israel could be doing more to help foster peace. Why arenít they working more closely with Egypt when it comes to policing supplies into the Gaza strip? Why arenít they doing more to get the arab states involved in the peace process in the West bank? Why do they keep building illegal settlements?

It is likely that any peace offers Israel makes will be rejected by the other countries, out of spite, fear, domestic politics considerations and so on. However, Israel is a rather wealthy nation, and they can probably afford to buy themselves into the good graces of at least a few countries. Personally, I think that is likely to be a much cheaper long-term solution than continuing with the current level of military action.

What im trying to say is: There is no peace.. period and there wont be any.. its a fact and we both know why
Yeah, and people like you are the reason for this. As long as both sides continue to believe that peace is impossible, peace will remain impossible.

suli
31-05-10, 15:26
It is as much more self-defense on behalf of Palestinians than Israel because of what Israel has done not just to Palestine, but Syria, Jordan, Egypt.

Hamas! The majority of Palestinians are in no way associated with extremists. Do not confuse the people with those that launch rockets into Israel. There are millions of Palestinian refugees. there's no such thing as an Israeli refugee.

Israel isn't willing to "share their land" at all. They aren't willing to give Palestinians the same freedoms & rights as they do to Israelis. They even want the children of Thai immigrant workers to be deported to thailand even though those children were born in israel and speak hebrew. Their parents can stay but their children can't because "israel is for the jewish people."

Israel prides itself on the Mossad. One of the supposedly best trained intelligence agencies in the world. because of this they could use far more covert measures in eradicating extremist cells in Palestinian territories, but instead choose to use great big grand gestures like bombs without warning civilians. In 2008 they even attacked a United Nations school without so much as an apology.



It was only called terrorism after 2001. Israel jumped on the bandwagon of "fighting terrorism" to condone their actions. To the israeli government there's no different between a child throwing stones at a soldier and a Hamas militant with a rocket launcher. The nuclear issue is that Israel has them, but refuses to acknowledge this or even sign int'l agreements. they behave as if they are 'above' everyone else in the world and it isn't right. Israel is far more likely (and capable) of firing off nukes than either Iran or North Korea.

Those rocket attacks do very little compared to what israel retaliates with. the rocket attacks in 2008 killed 3 people. Israel retaliated by destroying entire communities, killing 100s and then not allowing international aid agencies into Gaza to help innocent victims.



It isn't as simple as good vs. bad and they aren't assumptions. Those that you quote have lived through the violence with Israel. They are THERE you're not. It isn't an assumption. it's insider knowledge.

Your argument for Fatah and Hamas applies to Israel as well. The israeli government is corrupt and rules like a dictatorship. what they perceive as a threat from the Palestinian territories gives them justification for bull dozing people's homes and creating their own settlements.

yes mr.icecoldlara you've got the whole lot owned now :D

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:27
You’re right, of course. However, I still think that Israel could be doing more to help foster peace. Why aren’t they working more closely with Egypt when it comes to policing supplies into the Gaza strip? Why aren’t they doing more to get the arab states involved in the peace process in the West bank? Why do they keep building illegal settlements?

It is likely that any peace offers Israel makes will be rejected by the other countries, out of spite, fear, domestic politics considerations and so on. However, Israel is a rather wealthy nation, and they can probably afford to buy themselves into the good graces of at least a few countries. Personally, I think that is likely to be a much cheaper long-term solution than continuing with the current level of military action.


Yeah, and people like you are the reason for this. As long as both sides continue to believe that peace is impossible, peace will remain impossible.

No really, do you honestly believe Israel wants peace? and the other countries reject it?

Genius ICLC:p

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:28
Hamas! The majority of Palestinians are in no way associated with extremists. Do not confuse the people with those that launch rockets into Israel.Just like the majority of Israelis aren't associated with the actions of some rogue IDF soldiers (I'm referring to the IDF soldiers who have committed atrocities in the past).

yes mr.icecoldlara you've got the whole lot owned now :DFeel free to actually become part of an intelligent discussion instead of just acting like a 9-year old.

suli
31-05-10, 15:30
Just like the majority of Israelis aren't associated with the actions of some rogue IDF soldiers (I'm referring to the IDF soldiers who have committed atrocities in the past).

yeah, but soldiers are from army..and the army represents the goverment. so what ever they're doing are orderes from their goverment. if a goverment encourages such actions then I think it's time to say something.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:31
Just like the majority of Israelis aren't associated with the actions of some rogue IDF soldiers (I'm referring to the IDF soldiers who have committed atrocities in the past).

Feel free to actually become part of an intelligent discussion instead of just acting like a 9-year old.

Oh i dont think he's the one who's acting like a 9 years old boy

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:31
yeah, but soldiers are from army..and the army represents the goverment. so what ever they're doing are orderes from their goverment. if a goverment encourages such actions then I think it's time to say something.Do you not understand what the term rogue means?

Oh i dont think he's the one who's acting like a 9 years old boyWell, him and you. Instead of actually debating with the rest of us you two are just pitching in with one-sided tripe that's hardly readable.

Cochrane
31-05-10, 15:32
It isn't as simple as good vs. bad and they aren't assumptions. Those that you quote have lived through the violence with Israel. They are THERE you're not. It isn't an assumption. it's insider knowledge.

Your argument for Fatah and Hamas applies to Israel as well. The israeli government is corrupt and rules like a dictatorship. what they perceive as a threat from the Palestinian territories gives them justification for bull dozing people's homes and creating their own settlements.

I do not support Fatah or Hamas in any way... they are horrible. but dont forget that the previous president of the israeli goverment Aeril Sharon who held the position for five years was a WAR CONVICT..and that also say something about the israeli goverment.
I agree with you that the Israeli governmentís actions are and usually were way too extreme, and hit way too many innocents. But as you two both admit, this applies to both sides. Iíll readily admit that I have no idea what it is like to live there, and frankly I donít ever want to go into such a problematic area. But I think it is fair to say that it is never just one side who is to blame. Both need to change their ways if peace is a goal.

No really, do you honestly believe Israel wants peace? and the other countries reject it?

Genius ICLC:p
Reading comprehension is an important skill. I never said that Israel actually wants peace and the others reject it. I think, and in a previous post in this thread said, that it does not look like Israel wants peace. What I said then was that even if Israel suddenly changed their ways and wanted and offered peace, a lot of governments would reject it.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:34
Just a random question: the jews killed Jesus Christ.. why on earth would you defend them?

Lemmie
31-05-10, 15:35
Just a random question: the jews killed Jesus Christ.. why on earth would you defend them?

Yeah, you're really not contributing anything to this debate.

suli
31-05-10, 15:35
Do you not understand what the term rogue means?


yes I know.. but that is simply not true. so on the span of almost 70 years now..every extreme measure and every child and old man killed by the israeli army was by the hands of rogue soldiers? wow they have so many then.

lara c. fan
31-05-10, 15:35
Just a random question: the jews killed Jesus Christ.. why on earth would you defend them?

...*facepalm*

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:36
Just a random question: the jews killed Jesus Christ.. why on earth would you defend them?We're talking about Israel here, not Jews.

What exactly do you mean anyway? Are you trying to say that if you saw a Jew being attacked in the street you don't think they should be defended because some Jews 2000 years ago killed Jesus?

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 15:36
Youíre right, of course. However, I still think that Israel could be doing more to help foster peace. Why arenít they working more closely with Egypt when it comes to policing supplies into the Gaza strip? Why arenít they doing more to get the arab states involved in the peace process in the West bank? Why do they keep building illegal settlements?

It's my impression that even the less extreme Arab countries are reluctant to work with Israel out of fear of assassination by the more extreme anti-Israel groups. As for the settlements, are we even sure that the Israeli government supports them? There's a large Hasidic community not too far from where I live and they routinely ignore all zoning laws and build whatever they want even though it's illegal here too XD

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:36
Yeah, you're really not contributing anything to this debate.

...*facepalm*

Nope im not:p but nobody can stop me from asking:mis:

suli
31-05-10, 15:38
What exactly do you mean anyway? Are you trying to say that if you saw a Jew being attacked in the street you don't think they should be defended because some Jews 2000 years ago killed Jesus?

no of course not..and also I wouldnt agree with bunch of people coming to a land and kicking everyone else out and of it and kill them just because lived there 10000 years ago. ;)

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 15:38
Just a random question: the jews killed Jesus Christ.. why on earth would you defend them?

Jesus was Jewish. He was killed by Roman soldiers, not Jews.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:39
yes I know.. but that is simply not true. so on the span of almost 70 years now..every extreme measure and every child and old man killed by the israeli army was by the hands of rogue soldiers? wow they have so many then.I was just saying that some of the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinians were carried out by rogue soldiers. In other words, soldiers disobeying orders.

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 15:40
Yeah, and people like you are the reason for this. As long as both sides continue to believe that peace is impossible, peace will remain impossible.
I don't think a positive thought could do anything when it comes to these wars. I for one would love that it stops, but I don't think it even has to do with people of that region. My opinion is that higher powers need these wars for something so that's why it still is going.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:40
My opinion is that higher powers need these wars for something so that's why it still is going.Could you elaborate on that?

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:41
We're talking about Israel here, not Jews.

What exactly do you mean anyway? Are you trying to say that if you saw a Jew being attacked in the street you don't think they should be defended because some Jews 2000 years ago killed Jesus?

No.. not my point! but the Jews of Israel are doing it wrong! Of course i dont mean every jew in the world..

Cochrane
31-05-10, 15:41
It's my impression that even the less extreme Arab countries are reluctant to work with Israel out of fear of assassination by the more extreme anti-Israel groups. As for the settlements, are we even sure that the Israeli government supports them? There's a large Hasidic community not too far from where I live and they routinely ignore all zoning laws and build whatever they want even though it's illegal here too XD
That with the less extreme countries is probably true, I have no idea how to solve that. The settlements, well, many of them are being defended by the IDF and integrated into the normal electricity and highway system. Israel does not accept the internationally recognized borders and considers areas to be part of Israel that nobody else does, after all.

Gregori
31-05-10, 15:41
The difference, of course, is that Israel is a modern, western, democratic state.

I disagree on that. Its not democratic as it doesn't allow a large part of the population it controls to vote on things that will effect them. This has been called "the demographic problem" by Israeli officials. There is a fear that allowing the Palestinians in the region to vote and become citizens would threaten the Jewish domination of the state.

It doesn't recognize a Palestinian state either with defined borders or access to resources.

When the Palestinians do make a democratic choice (electing Hamas), they are thoroughly oppressed and punished for their decision, so they don't have real choices.

I don't think there are too many "modern western" states that are forcing large ethnic groups to become refugees from their own land or denying the population they control citizenship and the right to vote.

suli
31-05-10, 15:42
I was just saying that some of the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinians were carried out by rogue soldiers. In other words, soldiers disobeying orders.

yeah I know what rogue mean :confused:

yeah ok some..so what about the rest? what is the explaination for them?

Cochrane
31-05-10, 15:43
I disagree on that. Its not democratic as it doesn't allow a large part of the population it controls to vote on things that will effect them. This has been called "the demographic problem" by Israeli officials. There is a fear that allowing the Palestinians in the region to vote and become citizens would threaten the Jewish domination of the state.

It doesn't recognize a Palestinian state either with defined borders or access to resources.

When the Palestinians do make a democratic choice (electing Hamas), they are thoroughly oppressed and punished for their decision, so they don't have real choices.

I don't think there are too many "modern western" states that are forcing large ethnic groups to become refugees from their own land or denying the population they control citizenship and the right to vote.

True, but Israel is probably still more democratic than the Palestine government and most of its immediate neighbor countries.

almayah
31-05-10, 15:45
Oh the horror :(

suli
31-05-10, 15:45
True, but Israel is probably still more democratic than the Palestine government and most of its immediate neighbor countries.

oh please **** democracy if I cant make a living! and what Palestine goverment are you talking about? a country that's been fighting to be announced as an idepedant state for 70 years now? do you think the palastinian care about democracy while they are living under the line of poverty?

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:46
No.. not my point! but the Jews of Israel are doing it wrong! Of course i dont mean every jew in the world..But not all Jews in Israel are responsible.

yeah ok some..so what about the rest? what is the explaination for them?I can bet that a large proportion of Palestinian deaths aren't intentional but collateral damage. Still doesn't make it right, I'm just saying that I really don't think the Israeli government sets out to murder Palestinian civilians, despite how people like to paint things.

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 15:46
Could you elaborate on that?
Pardon me, I feel so tired atm and on top of that puzzled by these news that I maybe shouldn't have even said anything. I have a belief that the countries Israel and Palestine don't have a say in those wars. That they're just like physical workers in that mess.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:48
Pardon me, I feel so tired atm and on top of that puzzled by these news that I maybe shouldn't have even said anything. I have a belief that the countries Israel and Palestine don't have a say in those wars. That they're just like physical workers in that mess.So who is behind it then?

suli
31-05-10, 15:49
But not all Jews in Israeli are responsible.

I can bet that a large proportion of Palestinian deaths aren't intentional but collateral damage. Still doesn't make it right, I'm just saying that I really don't think the Israeli government sets out to murder Palestinian civilians, despite how people like to paint things.

I dont blame jews and I dont blame israelis..I blame the goverment! the govement been funding the army, the goverment didnt punish any of the responcible parties for tons of mascars that happend in palastine..the presdient of the goverment of two peroids is a war convict. so yes I 100% blame goverment..so tell me if the goverment isnt the one to balme..then whos the one to blame in your opinion?

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 15:49
Genius ICLC:p

شكرًا :)

Just like the majority of Israelis aren't associated with the actions of some rogue IDF soldiers (I'm referring to the IDF soldiers who have committed atrocities in the past).Feel free to actually become part of an intelligent discussion instead of just acting like a 9-year old.

You're statement gives the impression that innocents are ONLY killed by rogue soldiers and that isn't the case. The UN school was destroyed by orders under the government. There are very few Israeli soldiers that ever question orders.

And name calling will only get this thread closed. For someone that keeps wanting "debate" from other posters you might want to be more mindful of your own statements.

yeah, but soldiers are from army..and the army represents the goverment. so what ever they're doing are orderes from their goverment. if a goverment encourages such actions then I think it's time to say something.

We should also not forget that serving in the military is compulsory in Israel. So the population = army = government. It's a militant country like North Korea.

Do you not understand what the term rogue means?Well, him and you. Instead of actually debating with the rest of us you two are just pitching in with one-sided tripe that's hardly readable.

Do you know what the term "debate" means because calling someone a 9 yr old isn't participating in a debate.

We're talking about Israel here, not Jews.
What exactly do you mean anyway? Are you trying to say that if you saw a Jew being attacked in the street you don't think they should be defended because some Jews 2000 years ago killed Jesus?

You can't be a citizen of Israel without being Jewish. But not all Jews are Israeli nor are all Jews Zionists. nor are all Israeli's Zionists. & he was trying to lighten the mood

no of course not..and also I wouldnt agree with bunch of people coming to a land and kicking everyone else out and of it and kill them just because lived there 10000 years ago. ;)

Clever! ;)

I was just saying that some of the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinians were carried out by rogue soldiers. In other words, soldiers disobeying orders.

Which doesn't really do much in this case b/c you're not making yourself clear where this fits into the larger debate of this thread. You should've made that clear in your post, but you're still not acknowledging the atrocities committed by Israel.

ryan91
31-05-10, 15:49
israel just wanted to stop the aid ship. they were not gonna kill anybody. but a pawn in the ship stole one of the israeli soldier's gun and tried to kill them. after that, soldiers really got mad and **ssed off. and killed the people. i saw this on news.

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 15:50
So who is behind it then?
I was aiming for American government, but that opens up a whole new subject.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:50
I dont blame jews and I dont blame israelis..I blame the goverment! the govement been funding the army, the goverment didnt punish any of the responcible parties for tons of mascars that happend in palastine..the presdient of the goverment of two peroids is a war convict. so yes I 100% blame goverment..so tell me if the goverment isnt the one to balme..then whos the one to blame in your opinion?The individual commanders involved in calling in air strikes where large numbers of civilians have died (for example).

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:51
I was aiming for American government, but that opens up a whole new subject.

We have a winner!

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 15:51
We have a winner!
Excuse me?

Cochrane
31-05-10, 15:51
oh please **** democracy if I cant make a living! and what Palestine goverment are you talking about? a country that's been fighting to be announced as an idepedant state for 70 years now? do you think the palastinian care about democracy while they are living under the line of poverty?

You are totally missing the point I am trying to make here. Israel is the country in the area where it is the most likely that some day, a new government will come into power that actually cares about peace. I donít know how likely it actually is, but I think it is more likely in Israel than in Palestine, for the very reason you just said.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 15:52
Excuse me?

lol you are right!

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:52
I was aiming for American government, but that opens up a whole new subject.Proof?

Yes the American government funds Israel but I highly doubt they fund the Palestinian's as well lol, especially since the Palestinians are quite low-tech when compared to Israel anyway. What would they even have to gain?

Can't believe another discussion on world affairs has turned into an American conspiracy - yet again!

Gregori
31-05-10, 15:53
I can bet that a large proportion of Palestinian deaths aren't intentional but collateral damage. Still doesn't make it right, I'm just saying that I really don't think the Israeli government sets out to murder Palestinian civilians, despite how people like to paint things.

I don't think they honestly care if Palestinians die. If they're willing to take land and resources from them without permission, killing people for it isn't too far behind. I think they don't care if "collateral damage" is more frequent than it should be, because its just people from a state they don't recognize, who they want to get rid of that are dying. They're fighting their enemies and there is a lot of hatred for their enemies, because of the conflict.

suli
31-05-10, 15:54
The individual commanders involved in calling in air strikes where large numbers of civilians have died (for example).

really? really? and again..really? ;)

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 15:55
Proof?

Yes the American government funds Israel but I highly doubt they fund the Palestinian's as well lol, especially since the Palestinians are quite low-tech when compared to Israel anyway. What would they even have to gain?

Can't believe another discussion on world affairs has turned into an American conspiracy - yet again!
If it is turning into that, you're the one at fault. I wasn't going to mention it until you asked me who was behind it, looking forward to an American government reply :)

suli
31-05-10, 15:56
You are totally missing the point I am trying to make here. Israel is the country in the area where it is the most likely that some day, a new government will come into power that actually cares about peace. I donít know how likely it actually is, but I think it is more likely in Israel than in Palestine, for the very reason you just said.

let Palastine be independant first and then we'll take about your dreams :)

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 15:57
really? really? and again..really? ;)Yes, really. Next question.

If it is turning into that, you're the one at fault. I wasn't going to mention it until you asked me who was behind it, looking forward to an American government reply :)So where's this proof then?

I'm sorry Luka but if you are going to make wild claims you're going to need to back them up with evidence. It does get rather annoying when you're having an intelligent discussion with other members and then suddenly someone comes in with the classic "lol the Americans are behind it" and then goes away without even explaining their point.

suli
31-05-10, 16:00
Yes, really. Next question.



REALLY? :vlol:

you proved you dont know what you're talking about..NEXT!

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 16:01
Yes, really. Next question.

So where's this proof then?

I'm sorry Luka but if you are going to make wild claims you're going to need to back them up with evidence. It does get rather annoying when you're having an intelligent discussion with other members and then suddenly someone comes in with the classic "lol the Americans are behind it" and then goes away without even explaining their point.
I have said it two times. First time it was 'My opinion' and the second time 'I have a belief' and for opinions you don't need proof. I could, though, try to say why I have that kind of opinion, but I don't want to turn it into 'American conspiracy' again. We could handle this discussion somewhere else as I am interested in your views.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 16:03
REALLY? :vlol:

you proved you dont know what you're talking about..NEXT!How so?

See what I meant earlier though about you acting like a 9-year old?

I have said it two times. First time it was 'My opinion' and the second time 'I have a belief' and for opinions you don't need proof. I could, though, try to say why I have that kind of opinion, but I don't want to turn it into 'American conspiracy' again. We could handle this discussion somewhere else as I am interested in your views.I'm just asking why you think what you think. Surely there must be a reason.

Cochrane
31-05-10, 16:05
I have said it two times. First time it was 'My opinion' and the second time 'I have a belief' and for opinions you don't need proof. I could, though, try to say why I have that kind of opinion, but I don't want to turn it into 'American conspiracy' again. We could handle this discussion somewhere else as I am interested in your views.
(emphasis added)

That is a common mistake on the internet. Opinions do need proof, and not all opinions are equally valid. An opinion that is not based on proven facts or is based on logical fallacies is less valid than one that does not suffer from these defects. After all, what we really want to do is discuss things and either convince others of our opinion or form new opinions here. Without reason and logic behind the opinions, we could just as well make every thread just a poll without replies, and an open chat thread.

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 16:06
True, but Israel is probably still more democratic than the Palestine government and most of its immediate neighbor countries.

You have absolutely no basis for this.


I can bet that a large proportion of Palestinian deaths aren't intentional but collateral damage. Still doesn't make it right, I'm just saying that I really don't think the Israeli government sets out to murder Palestinian civilians, despite how people like to paint things.

Collateral damage doesn't make it right especially since Israel doesn't consider any of their actions "war" but more akin to "policing"

The individual commanders involved in calling in air strikes where large numbers of civilians have died (for example).

Commanders don't order the choppers into the air. The military never acts on it's own.

You are totally missing the point I am trying to make here. Israel is the country in the area where it is the most likely that some day, a new government will come into power that actually cares about peace. I donít know how likely it actually is, but I think it is more likely in Israel than in Palestine, for the very reason you just said.

No it really isn't. Israel is about as close to peace and democracy as Burma or China.

Proof?
Yes the American government funds Israel but I highly doubt they fund the Palestinian's as well lol, especially since the Palestinians are quite low-tech when compared to Israel anyway. What would they even have to gain?
Can't believe another discussion on world affairs has turned into an American conspiracy - yet again!

The US also funds Egypt, but they don't go around back talking the US. It's difficult not to include the US when talking about Israel, because the US has in the past blindly supported Israeli actions. Even though the Obama administration & Sect. Clinton have condemned Israeli settlements they haven't done anything about it. What's funny is when you have high level officials from the US visiting Gaza, just to visit and Israel gets all angry. It's a visit!

I don't think they honestly care if Palestinians die. If they're willing to take land and resources from them without permission, killing people for it isn't too far behind. I think they don't care if "collateral damage" is more frequent than it should be, because its just people from a state they don't recognize, who they want to get rid of that are dying. They're fighting their enemies and there is a lot of hatred for their enemies, because of the conflict.

They don't even allow them air space. Any condition of a Palestinian state according to Israel wouldn't include air space. so that means no flights/airlines and no aid/ etc.

Which isn't acceptable. One country shouldn't be able to tell another what they can and can't have if that other nation is completely sovereign. A sovereign nation deserves all the rights and privileges of other nations. Israel is constantly worried about what "might" happen.

And I agree that Israel doesn't care about collateral damage. they go to war, destroy homes, clean up the rubble and rebuild their own homes. It's as if they're going into battle for real estate.

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 16:07
(emphasis added)

That is a common mistake on the internet. Opinions do need proof, and not all opinions are equally valid. An opinion that is not based on proven facts or is based on logical fallacies is less valid than one that does not suffer from these defects. After all, what we really want to do is discuss things and either convince others of our opinion or form new opinions here. Without reason and logic behind the opinions, we could just as well make every thread just a poll without replies, and an open chat thread.
Then feel free to count my opinion as invalid. :)

suli
31-05-10, 16:09
How so?

See what I meant earlier though about you acting like a 9-year old?


you're telling me that the goverment of Israel has nothing to do with the millions of plastinians killed..it's their disobying soldiers...in what part am I supposed to take you seriously now?

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 16:11
Then feel free to count my opinion as invalid. :)Still not going to elaborate and explain anything?

This just leads me to believe that you're only saying this because you dislike or hate America (for whatever reason). There's no other explanation for it if you don't actually have a reason for believing what you stated earlier.

Collateral damage doesn't make it right especially since Israel doesn't consider any of their actions "war" but more akin to "policing"Did you not see the part of my post where I said that still doesn't make it right?

The US also funds Egypt, but they don't go around back talking the US. It's difficult not to include the US when talking about Israel, because the US has in the past blindly supported Israeli actions. Even though the Obama administration & Sect. Clinton have condemned Israeli settlements they haven't done anything about it. What's funny is when you have high level officials from the US visiting Gaza, just to visit and Israel gets all angry. It's a visit!Well that tells me nothing new - the US has and is still very supportive of Israel. Hardly supports the theory that they're funding or helping the Palestinians as well. It almost does the opposite.

you're telling me that the goverment of Israel has nothing to do with the millions of plastinians killed..it's their disobying soldiers...in what part am I supposed to take you seriously now?Millions? Where did you hear this?

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 16:14
Still not going to elaborate and explain anything?

This just leads me to believe that you're only saying this because you dislike or hate America (for whatever reason). There's no other explanation for it if you don't actually have a reason for believing what you stated earlier.

I do not dislike America. In fact I love it's modern culture and would like to live there, for sure. I just don't wanna talk about it here, as it's not what the topic is about. I said we could talk somewhere else, as in PM, MSN or whatever's good for you.

suli
31-05-10, 16:16
Millions? Where did you hear this?

hundreds of thousnds then..does that make it any better.

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 16:16
Which isn't acceptable. One country shouldn't be able to tell another what they can and can't have if that other nation is completely sovereign. A sovereign nation deserves all the rights and privileges of other nations. Israel is constantly worried about what "might" happen.

The US prevented Germany and Japan from having strong militaries after WWII. Now, nearly seventy years later Germany and Japan are quite strong economically and are good allies. The Palestinians should take what they can get, prove that they want peace, and then the rest of the rights will come naturally.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 16:25
hundreds of thousnds then..does that make it any better.Well, I doubt even that figure. Where are you getting these numbers from.

I do not dislike America. In fact I love it's modern culture and would like to live there, for sure. I just don't wanna talk about it here, as it's not what the topic is about. I said we could talk somewhere else, as in PM, MSN or whatever's good for you.PM me then.

I do findit slightly odd that you're ok with stating that you think something else is behind the conflict and when asked who you're happy to say who you think it is yet when asked why you're suddenly all "can't talk here".

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 16:26
Well, I doubt even that figure. Where are you getting these numbers from.

PM me then.

I do findit slightly odd that you're ok with stating that you think something else is behind the conflict and when asked who you're happy to say who you think it is yet when asked why you're suddenly all "can't talk here".
I will as soon as I get a bit better.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 16:29
I will as soon as I get a bit better.Ok, now I'm confused. You're ok enough to state your opinion but not well enough to even shed any light on an explanation?

suli
31-05-10, 16:31
Well, I doubt even that figure. Where are you getting these numbers from.



so since the occupation 1948 and two ubsurges and tens of mascars only 10 were killed? i'm saying hundreds of thousands if not million.

Gregori
31-05-10, 16:32
The US prevented Germany and Japan from having strong militaries after WWII. Now, nearly seventy years later Germany and Japan are quite strong economically and are good allies. The Palestinians should take what they can get, prove that they want peace, and then the rest of the rights will come naturally. Germany and Japan would have been strong economically regardless of US intervention. It would have been just a matter of time. They were so before WWII began.

The Palestinians have been taking what "they can get" and its led to nothing but being kicked off their own land, being denied the right to a state, being murdered, occupied....its really a depressing history. If they were completely peaceful, the Israelis would continue to build settlements and the Palestinians would still be denied democratic rights. Its state policy to colonize the area and keep the important resources for the Jewish state. The aim is to break up the region into cantons that can't form a functional state and to force Palestinians out of the region into other Arab states.

The rights have certainly not followed naturally. Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to have any rights.

Shouldn't the Israeli's be asked to prove they "want peace"? Shouldn't they have to "take what they can get"?


I believe there should be UN intervention if the whole area, to prevent further settlements and to protect the populous.

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 16:32
The US prevented Germany and Japan from having strong militaries after WWII. Now, nearly seventy years later Germany and Japan are quite strong economically and are good allies. The Palestinians should take what they can get, prove that they want peace, and then the rest of the rights will come naturally.

After a WORLD WAR!!! Both Germany and Japan were recognized sovereign nations who committed war crimes against humanity. Palestinians are defending what they believe to be their own country/territory/land. The situations are completely different!

Britain and the UN basically created Israel without the consent or 'vote' of the people living on that land. Palestinians were never asked if they could 'share'

Israel denies them rights even the ones they're already entitled to let alone the ones they as you said "should wait for"

They shouldn't have to settle for "what they can get" out of principle and ethical/moral/human rights.

tombraiderluka
31-05-10, 16:33
Ok, now I'm confused. You're ok enough to state your opinion but not well enough to even shed any light on an explanation?
I do not feel well enough to have serious, intelligent conversations with you over PM

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 16:38
Germany and Japan would have been strong economically regardless of US intervention. It would have been just a matter of time. They were so before WWII began.

That's my point. If the Palestinians stop attacking Israel right now, they can finally start recovering and it's just a matter of time before they are fully recovered. Continually attacking Israel is only drawing out this conflict forever without any progress in sight.


I believe there should be UN intervention if the whole area, to prevent further settlements and to protect the populous.

Sure, if the UN is willing to prevent the terrorist organization of Hamas from directing further attacks against Israel. Otherwise the situation won't improve.

They shouldn't have to settle for "what they can get" out of principle and ethical/moral/human rights.

That's the exact mindset that has them routinely attacking Israeli soldiers and getting their asses kicked over and over again. They can't win in a fight so they should try to win diplomatically. It's better to get what you want over the long term as opposed to dying right now on general principle.

Gregori
31-05-10, 16:44
That's my point. If the Palestinians stop attacking Israel right now, they can finally start recovering and it's just a matter of time before they are fully recovered. Continually attacking Israel is only drawing out this conflict forever without any progress in sight. Before the terrorism started in the region, the Palestinians were peaceful and they were still being occupied, without rights and having their land taken from them. If they stopped now, all that would happen is the acceleration of Israeli state policy, which is to prevent a Palestinian state and colonize the region and resources.



Sure, if the UN is willing to prevent the terrorist organization of Hamas from directing further attacks against Israel. Otherwise the situation won't improve.
To be fair, it would have to occupy and police both sides, preventing Hamas from terrorism and preventing Israel from military intervention.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 16:44
so since the occupation 1948 and two ubsurges and tens of mascars only 10 were killed? i'm saying hundreds of thousands if not million.And I'm saying where are you getting these numbers from?

I do not feel well enough to have serious, intelligent conversations with you over PMWell, get back to me whenever you feel "better".

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 16:45
That's the exact mindset that has them routinely attacking Israeli soldiers and getting their asses kicked over and over again. They can't win in a fight so they should try to win diplomatically. It's better to get what you want over the long term as opposed to dying right now on general principle.

This demonstrates a very cursory understanding of the situation. If this is your argument to just 'sit on their hands and wait' in the LONG TERM there won't BE any Palestinians.

Mad Tony
31-05-10, 16:50
This demonstrates a very cursory understanding of the situation. If this is your argument to just 'sit on their hands and wait' in the LONG TERM there won't BE any Palestinians.Why?

Gregori
31-05-10, 16:53
Why?

They're a refugee population that has been kicked of their land. The Israeli state policy is the colonize the area for Jews. If they continue the to build settlements, the Palestinians are expected to be forced into seeking refuge in neighboring Arab states.

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 16:57
This demonstrates a very cursory understanding of the situation. If this is your argument to just 'sit on their hands and wait' in the LONG TERM there won't BE any Palestinians.

And if they keep attacking Israel, then there won't be any Palestinians in the SHORT TERM. It's idiocy to think that attacking will do any good. Their only aim is to keep provoking Israel in the hopes that they can lure Israel into killing enough people that maybe the UN might interfere at some point. It's a failing strategy and it's costing the Palestinians dearly.

Catapharact
31-05-10, 17:00
Sure, if the UN is willing to prevent the terrorist organization of Hamas from directing further attacks against Israel. Otherwise the situation won't improve.

I have the perfect solution for that (but it requires that I take control of key military and strategic decisions Lol!)

Many of my brothers and sisters might not like me for this but I actually respect Ariel Sharon enough on the fact that he started the "two-state" transition by taking down illegal Jewish settlements and clearly defining a set boundry between Palestine and Israel. He was hated for it... Even verbally attacked for pushing through the plan by his own people but he clearly started something.

I personally want to continue on that path. If I were incharge of things in the region, I will personally gurantee to Israel that I will hand over the puppetmasters who run extremist Organizations like Hamas and Hezbullah. Israel can do whatever they want with em... Beat em, publically humiliate em... Hell I don't care if they use their scrotums to play hacky sack. HOWEVER, I do want Israel to turn over a few IDF commanders that I have in mind. I need to... *ahem* mediate a few things... with them.

After that's done and over with, I will personally see to it that the Arab Leauge and the strongest Military powers of that Leauge (S.A. included) create a military taskforce of the countries' elite Anti-Terror commandos. I personally want S.A. commandos to take the lead on this one since they have been QUITE effective in dealing with terrorist douches on home soil and urban combat seneios. The purpose of this taskforce will be one of two.

a) To systemactically destroy any remaining Hezbullah and Hamas support in the region.

b) To maintain peace and act as a police force to make sure order is restored. Face it, Fatah is corrupt. Its the only reason why Palestinians elected that gimpy party Hamas into power.

After I can assure Israel that I have the area secured and under control, we can get to negotiating things on boundiers, borders and visa and visitation rights.

Is this fair enough in your prespective?

Ward Dragon
31-05-10, 17:03
Is this fair enough in your prespective?

Sounds fair to me :)

Love2Raid
31-05-10, 17:22
Seriously....

This is so horrible, so awful. I feel so upset about this. :mad::mad::cen:

I think it's time for the US to stop their unconditional support for all the actions that the Israeli government and orthodox Jew colonists commit against the suppressed Palestinians and everyone who tries to help them.

Please, just do something about this damn it! The world will never be free of terrorism when the suppression of the Palestinians continues.

http://i48.************/2hflz5j.jpg

amore-guy
31-05-10, 17:23
^ Enough said!
:tmb:

ShadyCroft
31-05-10, 18:27
Cat, you intrigue me day by day...I wish I could know all about you now :p

Seeing as you're of Arab origins, you definitely have a perspective very different from what I hear here on daily basis.
Yeah, probably you now live a happy life and not feeling the bitterness some people have here, but then again, bitterness will get us nowhere.

I do find your post very very interesting. :tmb:

amiro1989
31-05-10, 18:56
I have the perfect solution for that (but it requires that I take control of key military and strategic decisions Lol!)

Many of my brothers and sisters might not like me for this but I actually respect Ariel Sharon enough on the fact that he started the "two-state" transition by taking down illegal Jewish settlements and clearly defining a set boundry between Palestine and Israel. He was hated for it... Even verbally attacked for pushing through the plan by his own people but he clearly started something.

I personally want to continue on that path. If I were incharge of things in the region, I will personally gurantee to Israel that I will hand over the puppetmasters who run extremist Organizations like Hamas and Hezbullah. Israel can do whatever they want with em... Beat em, publically humiliate em... Hell I don't care if they use their scrotums to play hacky sack. HOWEVER, I do want Israel to turn over a few IDF commanders that I have in mind. I need to... *ahem* mediate a few things... with them.

After that's done and over with, I will personally see to it that the Arab Leauge and the strongest Military powers of that Leauge (S.A. included) create a military taskforce of the countries' elite Anti-Terror commandos. I personally want S.A. commandos to take the lead on this one since they have been QUITE effective in dealing with terrorist douches on home soil and urban combat seneios. The purpose of this taskforce will be one of two.

a) To systemactically destroy any remaining Hezbullah and Hamas support in the region.

b) To maintain peace and act as a police force to make sure order is restored. Face it, Fatah is corrupt. Its the only reason why Palestinians elected that gimpy party Hamas into power.

After I can assure Israel that I have the area secured and under control, we can get to negotiating things on boundiers, borders and visa and visitation rights.

Is this fair enough in your prespective?

Have them deal with justice. Even the worst monster on this planet doesn't deserve to be tortured. Even though, I disagree with Hamas and Co. they shouldn't be tortured, I'm pretty sure they see their attacks as valuable as what Israel calls its "defense"...

I read that this morning, and I felt so disgusting for the person who planned all that. Seriously, this is horrible. No excuses.

Capt. Murphy
31-05-10, 19:05
I read that this morning, and I felt so disgusting for the person who planned all that. Seriously, this is horrible. No excuses.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176970

Goose
31-05-10, 20:23
Before the terrorism started in the region, the Palestinians were peaceful and they were still being occupied, without rights and having their land taken from them. If they stopped now, all that would happen is the acceleration of Israeli state policy, which is to prevent a Palestinian state and colonize the region and resources.


Before terrorism when? The whole concept of 'palestine' was occupation by arabs, after all, historically, palestine never existed, Israel on the other hand did.

How do you determine who has the rights to the land? Who won the last conflict? Who occupied the land the longest in history? Who's got the most religious ties to the land? Of coures Jews and Isreal win all those arguments. There only problem is there methods, not really much more.

It became palestine through conflict and expansion of empires, what was there before, such as mesapotamia, Persia, Israel, Byzantine, Roman and Greek colonies were wiped away by the expansion of the Islamic caliphate. Then when westerners started colonising, and after the Wars the area was just a ungoverned area, which would be adjusted through the mandate for Palestine. The mandate included Israel, and didnt leave much for Palistine.

Jordon, Syria, Lebanon and others used to be known as Palestine territories, palestine never was a country but an area to be divided, but when the Jewish arrived, the only battles over land seemed to take place in Israel as opposed to Jordon.

Legally, and why the UN cant do anything is that the 1922 mandate created, shows this:
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/1922-mandate_for_palestine.jpg

But of course what was promised to what was given is like this:
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/images/map_israel.gif

amore-guy
31-05-10, 20:35
Before terrorism when? The whole concept of 'palestine' was occupation by arabs, after all, historically, palestine never existed, Israel on the other hand did.

How do you determine who has the rights to the land? Who won the last conflict? Who occupied the land the longest in history? Who's got the most religious ties to the land? Of coures Jews and Isreal win all those arguments. There only problem is there methods, not really much more.

It became palestine through conflict and expansion of empires, what was there before, such as mesapotamia, Persia, Israel, Byzantine, Roman and Greek colonies were wiped away by the expansion of the Islamic caliphate. Then when westerners started colonising, and after the Wars the area was just a ungoverned area, which would be adjusted through the mandate for Palestine. The mandate included Israel, and didnt leave much for Palistine.

Jordon, Syria, Lebanon and others used to be known as Palestine territories, palestine never was a country but an area to be divided, but when the Jewish arrived, the only battles over land seemed to take place in Israel as opposed to Jordon.

Legally, and why the UN cant do anything is that the 1922 mandate created, shows this:
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/1922-mandate_for_palestine.jpg

This is so illogical.. The conclusion is wrong

Goose
31-05-10, 20:38
This is so illogical..

Its not illogical at all, Palestine was a mass of land with no government, it was divided into countries with seperate governments, including Israel. The land promised by the authorities at the time, USA, Britain and France were the ones who pretty much owned the area, never had the west bank or Gaza strip as being palestinian, rather they were to be Israeli, so this is why Israel feels it can take what they consider rightfully there land, as opposed to building settlements in Syria or Jordon, which was never promised to them.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 20:47
Its not illogical at all, Palestine was a mass of land with no government, it was divided into countries with seperate governments, including Israel. The land promised by the authorities at the time, USA, Britain and France were the ones who pretty much owned the area, never had the west bank or Gaza strip as being palestinian, rather they were to be Israeli, so this is why Israel feels it can take what they consider rightfully there land, as opposed to building settlements in Syria or Jordon, which was never promised to them.

So you are telling me that Israel has the right to take Syria, Lebanon and Jordan? And what about the civilizations before the jews? Before Israel? no? There is something called Palestine and there is something called the arab world..
So tell me why dont Americans nowadays give the land (USA) to the rightful owners? Native americans..
If you really love Israelis why dont you offer them a piece of your "Huge" land? Because killing and war, wont do it.. Trust me, it wont.

suli
31-05-10, 20:52
Before terrorism when? The whole concept of 'palestine' was occupation by arabs, after all, historically, palestine never existed, Israel on the other hand did.

How do you determine who has the rights to the land? Who won the last conflict? Who occupied the land the longest in history? Who's got the most religious ties to the land? Of coures Jews and Isreal win all those arguments. There only problem is there methods, not really much more.

It became palestine through conflict and expansion of empires, what was there before, such as mesapotamia, Persia, Israel, Byzantine, Roman and Greek colonies were wiped away by the expansion of the Islamic caliphate. Then when westerners started colonising, and after the Wars the area was just a ungoverned area, which would be adjusted through the mandate for Palestine. The mandate included Israel, and didnt leave much for Palistine.

Jordon, Syria, Lebanon and others used to be known as Palestine territories, palestine never was a country but an area to be divided, but when the Jewish arrived, the only battles over land seemed to take place in Israel as opposed to Jordon.

Legally, and why the UN cant do anything is that the 1922 mandate created, shows this:
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/1922-mandate_for_palestine.jpg[/IM

But of course what was promised to what was given is like this:
[IMG]http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/images/map_israel.gif

oh please for the love of god. so what happens to all the people who lives there? killed and kicked out?

IceColdLaraCroft
31-05-10, 20:53
Here's a better photo:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NE-72ZXux-g/SXEH9TrbnWI/AAAAAAAAH3Q/uN04afu_DAE/s400/israel-palestine_map.jpg

Goose
31-05-10, 20:53
oh please for the love of god. so what happens to all the people who lives there? killed and kicked out?

What do you mean 'what happens'? Its already happened, no-one gets kicked out, its politics, there more then enough land even for immigrants to live on which is why the settlments pop up.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 20:55
Here's a better photo:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NE-72ZXux-g/SXEH9TrbnWI/AAAAAAAAH3Q/uN04afu_DAE/s400/israel-palestine_map.jpg

Haha!:p i can see clearly Israel wants PIECES not peace..

Goose
31-05-10, 20:56
Here's a better photo:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NE-72ZXux-g/SXEH9TrbnWI/AAAAAAAAH3Q/uN04afu_DAE/s400/israel-palestine_map.jpg

Its the exact same photo.... Except it doesnt mention the Mandate and its goal written by the international community to give all that land shown in White to Israel in the first place.

So you are telling me that Israel has the right to take Syria, Lebanon and Jordan? And what about the civilizations before the jews? Before Israel? no? There is something called Palestine and there is something called the arab world..

Id be surprised if you could quote me saying that first part, because i never did. The civilisation before jews were pagans that i mentioned, Persians, Romans and Greeks, Mesapotamians.

suli
31-05-10, 20:57
What do you mean 'what happens'? Its already happened, no-one gets kicked out, its politics, there more then enough land even for immigrants to live on which is why the settlments pop up.

oh yes settlemst sorry i forgot. the ones that assure a living and education and food and HOUSING for the palastinian. yes Israel wants everyone to leave in peace but those stupid palastinian insist on war..I dont know why.

Catapharact
31-05-10, 21:02
Cat, you intrigue me day by day...I wish I could know all about you now :p

Seeing as you're of Arab origins, you definitely have a perspective very different from what I hear here on daily basis.
Yeah, probably you now live a happy life and not feeling the bitterness some people have here, but then again, bitterness will get us nowhere.

I do find your post very very interesting. :tmb:

Well a little mystery keeps things interesting non ;)?

My prespective is this:

Too many lives have been lost already over this land and I don't think God will ever forgive us who let this conflict continue on and on with no near end in sight; Especially on a land that is holy to three of this world's strongest faiths. And yes, the blame lies just as much with Arab states as it does with Israel. We haven't done enough to secure that zone... We have allowed extremists to nest there and we have allowed them to prey on people's miseries to the point where bitter hate divides two states that can easily co-exist and prosper.

I will say this clearly: Israel HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST! It has proven itself as a self-sufficient state and its a perfect trading partner. Imagine the investments and the business opportunities... Not to mention a viable military alliance.

So if people REALLY want to secure that region, they will follow on the guidelines I wrote in my previous post.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 21:02
Its the exact same photo.... Except it doesnt mention the Mandate and its goal written by the international community to give all that land shown in White to Israel in the first place.



Id be surprised if you could quote me saying that first part, because i never did. The civilisation before jews were pagans that i mentioned, Persians, Romans and Greeks, Mesapotamians.

Forgetting something? Phoenicians, Arabian gulf, Egyptians etc.? But no we dont mention the truth because they are terrorists ;)

suli
31-05-10, 21:07
Well a little mystery keeps things interesting non ;)?

My prespective is this:

Too many lives have been lost already over this land and I don't think God will ever forgive us who let this conflict continue on and on with no near end in sight; Especially on a land that is holy to three of this world's strongest faiths. And yes, the blame lies just as much with Arab states as it does with Israel. We haven't done enough to secure that zone... We have allowed extremists to nest there and we have allowed them to prey on people's miseries to the point where bitter hate divides two states that can easily co-exist and prosper.

I will say this clearly: Israel HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST! It has proven itself as a self-sufficient state and its a perfect trading partner. Imagine the investments and the business opportunities... Not to mention a viable military alliance.

So if people REALLY want to secure that region, they will follow on the guidelines I wrote in my previous post.

cat you are a very very smart guy and I have lots and lots of resepct for you..but I cant see arabs especially here dealing with Israel at all.

Mr.Burns
31-05-10, 21:14
Just a reminder here, Judaism has been around long before Islam. Another point, the current incarnation of the Jewish people are mostly of European decent. At one time, most Jews were of arab decent. Despite that fact, the "government" of Israel needs to be held accountable. Everyone can argue all they like about being Pro Israel or Pro Palastine but the fact is that Israel isn't going anywhere, whether we like it or not. instead of arguing over who has rights to the land, it would be a better use of everyone's energy to discuss, in a civil manner, ways to peacefully end the conflict.

To run with that last point, I haven't much of an idea as to what to do but to me, it's feels like the current government of Israel needs to be held accountable for their actions. They're giving Jews a bad name. Regardless if people say that the government doesn't represent all Jews, the fact remains that the country was initially founded as a homeland for the Jewish people. So by association, we are sometimes, or many times, unfairly associated with that government.

amore-guy
31-05-10, 21:17
Just a reminder here, Judaism has been around long before Islam. Another point, the current incarnation of the Jewish people are mostly of European decent. At one time, most Jews were of arab decent. Despite that fact, the "government" of Israel needs to be held accountable. Everyone can argue all they like about being Pro Israel or Pro Palastine but the fact is that Israel isn't going anywhere, whether we like it or not. instead of arguing over who has rights to the land, it would be a better use of everyone's energy to discuss, in a civil manner, ways to peacefully end the conflict.

To run with that last point, I haven't much of an idea as to what to do but to me, it's feels like the current government of Israel needs to be held accountable for their actions. They're giving Jews a bad name. Regardless if people say that the government doesn't represent all Jews, the fact remains that the country was initially founded as a homeland for the Jewish people. So by association, we are sometimes, or many times, unfairly associated with that government.

True:tmb:

Gregori
31-05-10, 21:33
Before terrorism when? The whole concept of 'palestine' was occupation by arabs, after all, historically, palestine never existed, Israel on the other hand did. Before the PLO uprising and the Intifadas. Other states have existed historically, it doesn't justify resurrecting them today. The Palestinians live there now, and they have a right not to be kicked of their land and colonized.

How do you determine who has the rights to the land? Who won the last conflict? Who occupied the land the longest in history? Who's got the most religious ties to the land? Of coures Jews and Isreal win all those arguments. There only problem is there methods, not really much more. Might is not right. Winning conflicts doesn't give you a right to land or to turn others into refugees. If that were so, countries like Iran asking to wipe Israel of the map with force would be justified.

Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have ties that last over 1000's of years to this piece of land, so they all have equally valid claims. Of course, if we kept recounting who lived on land thousands of years ago, the world would be a geopolitical nightmare. Anybody who lived anywhere thousands of years ago would have a claim to founding a state. Native Americans would be justified in kicking all whites out of America and forming a state only for native Americans. The consequences are pretty silly. In fact, what you're saying justifies much of what Hitler did. I'd like to think you don't appreciate Hitler and Nazism.

Northern Ireland is a similar conflict and the solution to it has not been racism or kicking people off their land. What matters are the people who now live in that region be they muslim, christian or jewish. There should be a democratic state that represents all people who live there.

Johnnay
31-05-10, 21:34
I
I personally want to continue on that path. If I were incharge of things in the region, I will personally gurantee to Israel that I will hand over the puppetmasters who run extremist Organizations like Hamas and Hezbullah. Israel can do whatever they want with em... Beat em, publically humiliate em... Hell I don't care if they use their scrotums to play hacky sack. HOWEVER, I do want Israel to turn over a few IDF commanders that I have in mind. I need to... *ahem* mediate a few things... with them.


a) To systemactically destroy any remaining Hezbullah and Hamas support in the region.

b) To maintain peace and act as a police force to make sure order is restored. Face it, Fatah is corrupt. Its the only reason why Palestinians elected that gimpy party Hamas into power.

After I can assure Israel that I have the area secured and under control, we can get to negotiating things on boundiers, borders and visa and visitation rights.

Is this fair enough in your prespective?


Oh Cat, dont take Hezbollah very seriously. besides theyre not "terriorists" like Hamas "is". theyre a force to be reckoned with. i mean they do not attack unlike the latter, they defend Lebanon, they wouldnt be foolish now to attack Israel anyway

and besides support for Hezbollah is very strong around the Arab World and the Hezboplah is accepted in the Lebanese government which is a pure win for Iran
Well a little mystery keeps things interesting non ;)?

My prespective is this:

Too many lives have been lost already over this land and I don't think God will ever forgive us who let this conflict continue on and on with no near end in sight; Especially on a land that is holy to three of this world's strongest faiths. And yes, the blame lies just as much with Arab states as it does with Israel. We haven't done enough to secure that zone... We have allowed extremists to nest there and we have allowed them to prey on people's miseries to the point where bitter hate divides two states that can easily co-exist and prosper.

I will say this clearly: Israel HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST! It has proven itself as a self-sufficient state and its a perfect trading partner. Imagine the investments and the business opportunities... Not to mention a viable military alliance.

So if people REALLY want to secure that region, they will follow on the guidelines I wrote in my previous post.

yes but one thing... it has a military alliance alright but its army is not invinicible anymore like it was before. face it it was meant to "destroy" Hamas and hizbullah during the Gaza and Lebanon Wars. what happened... they failed to destroy both organistations with their invinicible army because theyre still alive and even stronger than before( definitely for hizbullah but im not sure about hamas)...

Israel may have the right to exist but the Zionists who are in the state certainly dont and most of these Zionists are the leaders(i think) of Israel. its meant to be a peaceful state, not a state which the Zionists use as an excuse to oppresses other people.. Even Jews are protesting against their own "Government" for this reason.

anyways this dumb operation by Israel was a win-win for Hamas.

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 00:54
They just showed on Bloomberg Netanyahu saying "there were reports of gun fire, so our men retaliated or they might have been killed"

But it's been revieled that the men on those boats had PAINT ball guns!

aktrekker
01-06-10, 00:55
The latest article I've seen is
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_on_an/ml_israel_fallout_analysis

I would like to point out one particular paragraph.

In the most immediate fallout, the interception of the six-boat flotilla carrying 10,000 tons of supplies for Gaza trained the global spotlight on the blockade of the territory. Israel and Egypt sealed Gaza's borders after Hamas overran the territory in 2007, wresting control from Abbas-loyal forces.


So Israel is not alone in the blockade.
Just thought that was relevant to the discussion.

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 00:58
Egypt doesn't want Hamas in their country b/c they already have issues with extremists, but there are tunnels that run from Egypt to Gaza for supplies (like WATER!) yes guns too, but it's ridiculous that Israel shuts off their resources.

Dark Lugia 2
01-06-10, 02:01
I dunno whats happened, but the outcomes are horrifying... :/ So many people on facebook are bashing Jews, calling them scum, wishing they could kill them.

Kittypower
01-06-10, 02:29
^
I was just on facebook, i havent seen any yet but if i do then there straight off my friends list.


They just showed on Bloomberg Netanyahu saying "there were reports of gun fire, so our men retaliated or they might have been killed"

But it's been revieled that the men on those boats had PAINT ball guns!

I thought it had been reported that the israelis had paint ball guns and side arms.

On a side note, ive seen a few reports that say the "peace activists" were the ones who started the fighting.

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 06:13
I thought it had been reported that the israelis had paint ball guns and side arms.

On a side note, ive seen a few reports that say the "peace activists" were the ones who started the fighting.

That's what I heard. The Israeli forces warned the ships to stop before the blockade and dock at the appropriate port so that the aid could be inspected and then taken to Gaza. The ships said they were going to break the blockade but would be nonviolent. Israeli soldiers boarded the first five ships without any problems. Then on that last ship, as the soldiers were boarding, the aid workers attacked them with knives and clubs. The soldiers defended themselves with nonlethal means like paintball guns and riot control for as long as they could, but some of the aid workers got their handguns away and shot a few of the Israeli soldiers so they returned fire. This last ship appears to have planned the ambush all along to generate bad PR for Israel.

voltz
01-06-10, 07:50
Well generate news they did, but its no surprise they were willing (foolish) to get themselves killed over it. In time a thing like this can be cleared so that effort will be in vain.

TRLegendLuver
01-06-10, 07:53
Hmmm

lara c. fan
01-06-10, 07:56
They just showed on Bloomberg Netanyahu saying "there were reports of gun fire, so our men retaliated or they might have been killed"

But it's been revieled that the men on those boats had PAINT ball guns!

Yeah, they're gonna just take 5 seconds under fire to check what guns they were. I'd definitely do that.

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 08:02
Well generate news they did, but its no surprise they were willing (foolish) to get themselves killed over it. In time a thing like this can be cleared so that effort will be in vain.

Indeed. I expect in a few days once the facts can be independently confirmed, this news story will fade away. It's what happens every time. There's some outrageous news story that Israel committed an atrocity, the world jumps to condemn Israel, and then once the facts come out it turns out that Israel's story was true and then everyone just kind of ignores it and moves on with life.

voltz
01-06-10, 08:05
Everyone with a bias just looks for an angle to chip away at, any other point to them are otherwise meaningless.

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 08:08
Everyone with a bias just looks for an angle to chip away at, any other point to them are otherwise meaningless.

That's true. Granted my own interpretation of what happened is based upon what makes the most sense given everything that's happened in the past, but if there was reasonable proof contradicting that then I would consider changing my opinion.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 08:38
Anything new?

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 10:12
Anything new?

Yes. Israel has detained 30 Brits and says "they had no choice" in their actions, but the United Nations has condemned Israel and said that this is "State murder"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10201165.stm

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 10:35
I dunno whats happened, but the outcomes are horrifying... :/ So many people on facebook are bashing Jews, calling them scum, wishing they could kill them.Can't say I'm surprised. I just feel so sorry for the Jews sometime. I hear they've already had a lot of abuse thanks to the financial crisis which they had nothing to do with and then whenever Israel does something people don't approve of they get it for that as well. It's stupid.

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 10:39
Can't say I'm surprised. I just feel so sorry for the Jews sometime. I hear they've already had a lot of abuse thanks to the financial crisis which they had nothing to do with and then whenever Israel does something people don't approve of they get it for that as well. It's stupid.

I think Mr. Burns (TRF) said it best that it isn't right that ALL Jews get blamed for Israel's actions, but it's going to happen b/c Israel was created as a Jewish state for Jews. And it's not like Zionist walk around with labels.

I hadn't heard of the financial crisis being blamed on them. I can see where the stereotype comes from, but this was irresponsible government financial policy and spending/borrowing by people who had no money.

Kelly Craftman
01-06-10, 10:41
I dunno whats happened, but the outcomes are horrifying... :/ So many people on facebook are bashing Jews, calling them scum, wishing they could kill them.

Im always on facebook and i've never seen that :S
Is it your friends or is it people making pages and groups?

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 10:42
I think Mr. Burns (TRF) said it best that it isn't right that ALL Jews get blamed for Israel's actions, but it's going to happen b/c Israel was created as a Jewish state for Jews. And it's not like Zionist walk around with labels.I don't even think random Israelis should just attacked over this either, but no doubt that will happen.

Catapharact
01-06-10, 11:25
Indeed. I expect in a few days once the facts can be independently confirmed, this news story will fade away. It's what happens every time. There's some outrageous news story that Israel committed an atrocity, the world jumps to condemn Israel, and then once the facts come out it turns out that Israel's story was true and then everyone just kind of ignores it and moves on with life.

Unfortunately in this case the damage is way too significant. Consider the fact that Israel is getting way too isolationist for its own good. They damaged their ties with a lot of significant allies recently including Malta, and now Turkey (which also happens to be a NATO member.) If things end up going down this road then things could get really really rough for them in years to come.

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 11:33
Unfortunately in this case the damage is way too significant. Consider the fact that Israel is getting way too isolationist for its own good. They damaged their ties with a lot of significant allies recently including Malta, and now Turkey (which also happens to be a NATO member.) If things end up going down this road then things could get really really rough for them in years to come.

The new Turkish leader was just looking for an excuse to go against Israel anyway. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else. So far the latest reports say that 9 people were killed after attacking the Israeli soldiers with knives, pipes, clubs, and even a few handguns. There's also video of the Israeli soldiers boarding the ship and then being mobbed by people attacking them. This seems pretty clear-cut self-defense, and once that's independently confirmed then I think the issue will be forgotten. Nobody will admit they were wrong for condemning Israel, but the media usually drops the issue once it's public knowledge what really happened.

Catapharact
01-06-10, 11:45
The new Turkish leader was just looking for an excuse to go against Israel anyway. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else. So far the latest reports say that 9 people were killed after attacking the Israeli soldiers with knives, pipes, clubs, and even a few handguns. There's also video of the Israeli soldiers boarding the ship and then being mobbed by people attacking them. This seems pretty clear-cut self-defense, and once that's independently confirmed then I think the issue will be forgotten. Nobody will admit they were wrong for condemning Israel, but the media usually drops the issue once it's public knowledge what really happened.

True but tactics wise, I have to say the IDF command bungled up big time by taking the ship in international waters where it has little Jurisdiction. I personally have a hard time swalloing that given the fact that even if there was a possibility that the "protestors" had long range missles, they could have been easily taken out with drone attacks after they had confimed with video survilance that they were packing significant heat.

Otherwise they should have let em float in their territory and THEN boarded the ship;Thereby reducing liability on themselves. I seriously question IDF command's decisions sometimes on a LOT of things.

Offcourse, I can't say for sure yet and I am waiting for reports. Thus far, all what they have found on the ship are Aid supplies and slingshots.

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 12:09
True but tactics wise, I have to say the IDF command bungled up big time by taking the ship in international waters where it has little Jurisdiction. I personally have a hard time swalloing that given the fact that even if there was a possibility that the "protestors" had long range missles, they could have been easily taken out with drone attacks after they had confimed with video survilance that they were packing significant heat.

Otherwise they should have let em float in their territory and THEN boarded the ship;Thereby reducing liability on themselves. I seriously question IDF command's decisions sometimes on a LOT of things.

Offcourse, I can't say for sure yet and I am waiting for reports. Thus far, all what they have found on the ship are Aid supplies and slingshots.

I don't know what the actual international law is, but I heard an Israeli representative saying that because the ships made clear their intention to run the blockade and enter Israeli waters, that was enough for Israel to stop them. So, that's apparently why they tried to inspect the ships where they did.

Plus it sounds like the ship where the violence occurred was the last ship in the flotilla, so perhaps the closest ship actually was in Israeli waters when they stopped the convoy? It's confusing because some places say it was the lead ship in the convoy and others say it was the last to be boarded, but why would they board the lead ship last? Definitely have to see what the reports say on this.

In any case, taking this scenario where six ships have announced that they intend to run the blockade, bypass inspection, and deliver unknown supplies to Gaza (possibly including weapons or materials that can be used to build bunkers). How should Israel have handled that?

Catapharact
01-06-10, 12:18
In any case, taking this scenario where six ships have announced that they intend to run the blockade, bypass inspection, and deliver unknown supplies to Gaza (possibly including weapons or materials that can be used to build bunkers). How should Israel have handled that?

If they had intended to do just that then the Israeli blockade should have kept a staggered line formation, kept their cannons fixed at the ships (just in case the ships decided to increase speed and get the idea of ramming past the blockade) and only when have the ships entered Israeli waters should they have boarded it. You get cooperation that way... and if you don't, you have the right to sink em ;).

M.A.
01-06-10, 12:21
Interesting to know that they are detaining most of the 600 activists and cutting out all forms of communication so that it won't contradict their version of the story...

So my guess was right, we are getting just one side of the story...

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 12:23
If they had intended to do just that then the Israeli blockade should have kept a staggered line formation, kept their cannons fixed at the ships (just in case the ships decided to increase speed and get the idea of ramming past the blockade) and only when have the ships entered Israeli waters should they have boarded it. You get cooperation that way... and if you don't, you have the right to sink em ;).

I agree, but can you imagine the backlash if they actually did sink any of those ships? If people are this angry over 9 dead activists, they'd totally flip out over ~650.

Interesting to know that they are detaining most of the 600 activists and cutting out all forms of communication so that it won't contradict their version of the story...

So my guess was right, we are getting just one side of the story...

Approximately 50 activists were released after agreeing to be deported. The rest wouldn't cooperate and are being held until Israel can determine who they are.

Cochrane
01-06-10, 12:25
I don't know what the actual international law is, but I heard an Israeli representative saying that because the ships made clear their intention to run the blockade and enter Israeli waters, that was enough for Israel to stop them. So, that's apparently why they tried to inspect the ships where they did.

Plus it sounds like the ship where the violence occurred was the last ship in the flotilla, so perhaps the closest ship actually was in Israeli waters when they stopped the convoy? It's confusing because some places say it was the lead ship in the convoy and others say it was the last to be boarded, but why would they board the lead ship last? Definitely have to see what the reports say on this.

In any case, taking this scenario where six ships have announced that they intend to run the blockade, bypass inspection, and deliver unknown supplies to Gaza (possibly including weapons or materials that can be used to build bunkers). How should Israel have handled that?

The UN force that has the job of stopping weapons delivery to the Hezbollah in the south of Lebanon has the right to monitor the area of up to 50 nautical miles away from the coast, including inspecting suspicious civilian ships. You could make a case that Israel has some sort of moral right to perform similar actions in a similar distance. However, there is no UN mandate for doing so.

If Israel has asserted a Contiguous Zone, which may be at the most 24 miles from the coast, then they have the authority to regulate customs, immigration and a few other issues there, which would probably allow such an action. I have no idea how far the boats were out, so it is hard to say. The action most certainly still happened within Israelís exclusive economic zone, but Israel has no police rights there. The correct thing would have been to wait until the ships were within 24 nautical miles off the coast, possibly shadowing them with war ships until that point to show them that they are unwelcome, and only then take action.

Catapharact
01-06-10, 12:32
I agree, but can you imagine the backlash if they actually did sink any of those ships? If people are this angry over 9 dead activists, they'd totally flip out over ~650.

As cynical as this sounds, its all about doing things by the book when it comes to situations such as these. Like you said yourself, Israel would have gotten a bad PR either way but I personally would like to see little, if no legal loop holes involved in their action so that situaitons like these can be put to rest without any cause for concern legality wise and Israel not lose anymore international support.

Besides... There is a famous saying in the east... "Execute one man to warn a thousand." You can sure bet that once the first ship in the convoy gets obliterated, the others will be more inclind to stop themselves from proceeding on ;).

M.A.
01-06-10, 12:32
Approximately 50 activists were released after agreeing to be deported. The rest wouldn't cooperate and are being held until Israel can determine who they are.

Why I got the feeling that those 50 aren't among the people who was involved on that ship that got attacked...

You got to wonder though, why fight knives and clubs with live bullets? Aren't they trained in riot control?

Lemmie
01-06-10, 12:33
I have no idea how far the boats were out, so it is hard to say. The action most certainly still happened within Israelís exclusive economic zone, but Israel has no police rights there. The correct thing would have been to wait until the ships were within 24 nautical miles off the coast, possibly shadowing them with war ships until that point to show them that they are unwelcome, and only then take action.

This (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10201165.stm) BBC News article asserts that the approximate site of the raid was more than 100 kilometres from the Israeli coastline. I'm not sure how far that is in terms of nautical miles; maybe fifty or so?

Catapharact
01-06-10, 12:35
This (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10201165.stm) BBC News article asserts that the approximate site of the raid was more than 100 kilometres from the Israeli coastline. I'm not sure how far that is in terms of nautical miles; maybe fifty or so?

About 54.

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 12:42
The UN force that has the job of stopping weapons delivery to the Hezbollah in the south of Lebanon has the right to monitor the area of up to 50 nautical miles away from the coast, including inspecting suspicious civilian ships. You could make a case that Israel has some sort of moral right to perform similar actions in a similar distance. However, there is no UN mandate for doing so.

Okay, that makes sense. Lemmie's article puts the incident at around 50 nautical miles from the coast so Israel was probably following the line of reasoning that you explained.

As cynical as this sounds, its all about doing things by the book when it comes to situations such as these. Like you said yourself, Israel would have gotten a bad PR either way but I personally would like to see little, if no legal loop holes involved in their action so that situaitons like these can be put to rest without any cause for concern legality wise and Israel not lose anymore international support.

Besides... There is a famous saying in the east... "Execute one man to warn a thousand." You can sure bet that once the first ship in the convoy gets obliterated, the others will be more inclind to stop themselves from proceeding on ;).

I suppose, but I still think it would be worse PR to sink a ship and kill nearly 700 people XD

Why I got the feeling that those 50 aren't among the people who was involved on that ship that got attacked...

Perhaps. It sounds like anyone who was willing to be deported got released and everyone else got detained for not cooperating.

You got to wonder though, why fight knives and clubs with live bullets? Aren't they trained in riot control?

Apparently some of the people managed to get their hands on the soldiers' backup handguns and started shooting the soldiers, so the soldiers returned fire.

Cochrane
01-06-10, 12:48
Why I got the feeling that those 50 aren't among the people who was involved on that ship that got attacked...

You got to wonder though, why fight knives and clubs with live bullets? Aren't they trained in riot control?

Well, detaining suspected criminals and not giving them media access is standard police and military procedure all over the world. I don't think Israel did follow the law correctly when acquiring them, but not releasing them immediately seems justifiable.

As for the riot control, first of all I have no idea whether Israeli navy soldiers would be trained in that. But letís assume that they are: A ship is very different from an open and wide street. You canít for example try to disperse a crowd there, because where are they going to run? I have no idea about fight tactics at all outside of video games, but I do trust that the Israeli military knows very well how to deal with insurgents and suspected terrorists, so I would defer to their judgement there, even if that may be biased.

Johnnay
01-06-10, 12:52
Unfortunately in this case the damage is way too significant. Consider the fact that Israel is getting way too isolationist for its own good. They damaged their ties with a lot of significant allies recently including Malta, and now Turkey (which also happens to be a NATO member.) If things end up going down this road then things could get really really rough for them in years to come.


Turkey-Israel ties were strained way before this event came.

jackles
01-06-10, 13:36
this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10201165.stm) is the most recent bbc video I have seen today. My take is that extremists of any belief will often behave in an extreme manner.

ggctuk
01-06-10, 14:04
Now I stopped reading this thread about halfway through page one. I find the bias against Israel quite disgusting as it seems to be any excuse to hate them. Of course, death is unpleasant when it can be avoided. But nobody stops to think about this. An 'aid convoy' is a handy disguise for smuggling weapons, soldiers, people, contraband etc into a country. Israel warned them that they were sailing into a blockade, to turn around and they refused. When they boarded to find out what was on board, they were attacked. Not in self-defense - is it self-defense to try to pull a helicopter down? No, they were possibly hiding something. And they knew full-well that this was the reaction they'd get. So even if there was nothing suspicious on board, they've probably done what they set out to do.

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 14:09
I think the comment in the opening post about Israel "getting a taste of its own medicine very soon" was very Ahmadinejad-esque.

Goose
01-06-10, 17:32
Forgetting something? Phoenicians, Arabian gulf, Egyptians etc.? But no we dont mention the truth because they are terrorists ;)

Forgetting? Why would i forget them, they were not part of the territories, the map i put showed that. People like Egypt just joined in during the 1960's when it seemed apparant Israel was about to be defeated during the 6 day and Yom kippur wars.

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 17:54
I think the comment in the opening post about Israel "getting a taste of its own medicine very soon" was very Ahmadinejad-esque.

Did you run out of things to say? 'Cause that's pretty low.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:00
Did you run out of things to say? 'Cause that's pretty low.

Seems that way!

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 18:02
Seems that way!And yet all you've done in this thread is just agree with people who are anti-Israel. :confused: You've hardly posted anything besides a few words stating that you agree with somebody.

Did you run out of things to say? 'Cause that's pretty low.Nope, just making a comment based on my observations.

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 18:07
And yet all you've done in this thread is just agree with people who are anti-Israel. :confused: You've hardly posted anything besides a few words stating that you agree with somebody.

Nope, just making a comment based on my observations.

But you went all the way back to the first post. We've moved on since then and it really looks like you're nit-picking.

And it doesn't even add to the debate about Israel's actions. You're commenting on Johnnay's statement which was obviously made more with emotion rather than analysis.

For someone that continually states "I don't see how you're adding to the debate" you seem be doing a lot of trolling.

Latest:

Other ships that were in the vicinity are saying Israel's claims aren't adding up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10208027.stm

And earlier today Egypt opened it's border with Gaza "indefinitely for now" to allow medical and other aid to be transported. This is a big deal b/c usually Egypt only gives a few days.

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 18:11
But you went all the way back to the first post. We've moved on since then and it really looks like you're nit-picking.

And it doesn't even add to the debate about Israel's actions. You're commenting on Johnnay's statement which was obviously made more with emotion rather than analysis.ggctuk's post just reminded me of the original post.

For someone that continually states "I don't see how you're adding to the debate" you seem be doing a lot of trolling.Rather funny coming from you don't you think?

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:17
And yet all you've done in this thread is just agree with people who are anti-Israel. :confused: You've hardly posted anything besides a few words stating that you agree with somebody.

Nope, just making a comment based on my observations.

Facepalm*
Of course im Anti-Israeli.. I say it out loud i dont care dude. When you experience war and bombs above your head dropping drown to kill you.. you will never care who you hate, and why.. I mean even Jews are saying Israel is a bad image for them (WTH?!)
Obviously you wont understand that!
And i dont bother posting here because i know it will do nothing.. Thats where i agree with some member..
You have your thoughts i have mine. Thats it dude.

jackles
01-06-10, 18:20
Emotive though this topic is lets try and keep the personal comments out of it.




A good debate should be that....a debate.

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 18:20
ggctuk's post just reminded me of the original post.

Rather funny coming from you don't you think?

:confused::confused:

I've contributed a lot to this thread in the form of debate, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

In fact i'm going to block you b/c you might be willing to get banned, but I'm not going to be put on suspension b/c of someone like you. Enjoy talking to yourself.

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 18:21
:confused::confused:

I've contributed a lot to this thread in the form of debate, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

In fact i'm going to block you b/c you might be willing to get banned, but I'm not going to be put on suspension b/c of someone like you. Enjoy talking to yourself.Not in this thread, but you're always trying to troll me/just generally insulting me.

Good, now I wont have you throwing petty insults at me in every thread.

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:22
what they dont tell you is simply the fact that there were weapons on the ships, there's even filmed proof, of course its easier to blame the israeli goverment that was trying to stop those boats, did you see the clips where soilders were violently hit by those so called "peaceful activists"? of course not! you blame the israeli soliders first before even knowing what you are talking about :wve: they tell you what they want you to think, but its all false, the israeli soliders landed on the boats with paint guns, PAINT GUNS, they were attacked by the people on the boat and had to defend themselves, please, the people on the boat are not holy.

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 18:24
what they dont tell you is simply the fact that there were weapons on the ships, there's even filmed proof, of course its easier to blame the israeli goverment that was trying to stop those boats, did you see the clips where soilders were violently hit by those so called "peaceful activists"? of course not! you blame the israeli soliders first before even knowing what you are talking about :wve: they tell you what they want you to think, but its all false.

The israeli soldiers used LIVE ammunition on a PEACE keeping ship. Their lives were never endanger only their pride. Even Israel's allies are condemning their actions.

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:25
@Sharon: Oh God. Just, oh God.

jackles
01-06-10, 18:27
The whole situation is a mess. Maybe this will be a motivator for things to start sorting themselves out.

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:27
just admit you honestly dont know what actually happend there, the soliders warned them about it plenty of time before they started the trip over there, they didnt listen to these warnings, and well, thats the result, i dont think its ok to keep Gaza blocked like this either, but it did happen for a reason.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:27
Sharon please keep the lies to yourself! the Israelis started attacking the ships!

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:28
and i said they didnt? they did attack them because they didnt listen to the warnings the soliders gave them.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:29
The whole situation is a mess. Maybe this will be a motivator for things to start sorting themselves out.

Threads like that never live for a long time.. just a couple of days!

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:30
and i said they didnt? they did attack them because they didnt listen to the warnings the soliders gave them.

A very valid and justifiable pretext. Maybe the Israeli should learn to part ways with their natural instinct of violence.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:30
and i said they didnt? they did attack them because they didnt listen to the warnings the soliders gave them.

But why should there be warnings? Is food now dangerous?

jackles
01-06-10, 18:30
Hmm from what I have seen the Israelis landed on the ships and the people on them began attacking the troops. Now maybe they shouldn't have stopped the ships...maybe the people on the ships shouldn't have attacked the troops if they were being peaceful. Either way one big balls up.


Threads like that never live for a long time.. just a couple of days!


Pardon? I was referring to the political situation.

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 18:31
A very valid and justifiable pretext. Maybe the Israeli should learn to part ways with their natural instinct of violence.That's a bit rude don't you think? The Israelis are often provoked with violence, hence the violent retaliations.

Threads like that never live for a long time.. just a couple of days!Normally because people can't be mature about things.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:32
Hmm from what I have seen the Israelis landed on the ships and the people on them began attacking the troops. Now maybe they shouldn't have stopped the ships...maybe the people on the ships shouldn't have attacked the troops if they were being peaceful. Either way one big balls up.

I see you like politics?:p
I never saw you posting that much:D

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:32
but the moment they landed on the boat they were attacked by those "peaceful activists", they had to defend themselves, and ill repeat saying they took paint guns with them because they thought that they will be able to use the paint gun shots as a warning.

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:35
That's a bit rude don't you think? The Israelis are often provoked with violence, hence the violent retaliations.

What provoked them to resort to violence this time for instance?

jackles
01-06-10, 18:35
I see you like politics?:p
I never saw you posting that much:D


I prefer to maintain a balanced opinion politically, I only enjoy debates where actual debating takes place and not arguing.

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:37
we all know it was a set up to do the whole media drama :wve:

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:38
we all know it was a set up to do the whole media drama :wve:

A setup to kill all these innocent people?

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:39
A setup to kill all these innocent people?

it was a set up to make trigger the world's media on being anti-israeli again, and like the Gazans didnt aim rockets at our country to murder innocents, of course they did, this is why the goverment reacted the way it did back then.

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:41
it was a set up to make trigger the world's media on being anti-israeli again, and like the Gazans didnt aim rockets at our country to murder innocents, of course they did, this is why the goverment reacted the way it did back then.

A setup by who may I ask?

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 18:42
What provoked them to resort to violence this time for instance?Some of the activists apparently attacked the Israelis first.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:43
it was a set up to make trigger the world's media on being anti-israeli again, and like the Gazans didnt aim rockets at our country to murder innocents, of course they did, this is why the goverment reacted the way it did back then.

Just like the set up you are doing these day by bashing and humiliating arabs right?

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:43
A setup by who may I ask?

do i really need to say it? you know it.

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:44
do i really need to say it? you know it.

No, I don't know it, that's why I asked.:confused:

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 18:44
A setup by who may I ask?

the peace keepers. Sharon is advocating that this whole thing was designed by them as a set up of the commandos to kill them and show the world what Israel did to them.

Sharon is making Israel look like a victim. Something a LOT of Israeli's do when it comes to incidents like this.

Like when they were bombing Lebannon. It was Lebannon's fault did you know that Tony? All those bombs and air raids were YOUR fault.


(end sarcasm)

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:46
Sharon is making Israel look like a victim. Something a LOT of Israeli's do when it comes to incidents like this.


I'm very much aware of what Sharon is doing. Or trying to do, to be more precise.;) That's why I asked, because I want her to elaborate.

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:48
right, peace keepers who attack israeli soliders the moment they land on their peaceful humanitarian boats, both sides did a mistake, and im not saying either side is right.

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 18:49
Why are you even bothering Sharon? On the internet many people wont treat you with any respect unless you're loud and proud anti-Israeli/pro-Palestinian.

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:51
i know, its nice how theres hatred about these subjects, instead of solving them in a mature way, both people and the goverments are acting like little children, this is sick.

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:51
Why are you even bothering Sharon? On the internet many people wont treat you with any respect unless you're loud and proud anti-Israeli/pro-Palestinian.

I'm not bothering Sharon! I just asked her to elaborate, she did. I respected her opinion and didn't answer back. I'm treating her with a lot of respect honestly. And I don't need respect tips from you, thank you very much!

Mad Tony
01-06-10, 18:53
I'm not bothering Sharon! I just asked her to elaborate, she did. I respected her opinion and didn't answer back. I'm treating her with a lot of respect honestly. And I don't need respect tips from you, thank you very much!I was talking to Sharon as in "Why are you even bothering, Sharon?".

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 18:53
:vlol:

http://i48.************/10f48yg.jpg

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 18:54
I found a first-hand detailed account of what happened here (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html):

Our Navy commandoes fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vesselís bridge and order the Marmaraís captain to stop.


Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operationís commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.

Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.


However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.


One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other ďdonít shoot, donít shoot,Ē even though they sustained numerous blows.


ĎI saw the tip of a rifleí

The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.


The planned rush towards the vesselís bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. ďThrow stun grenades,Ē shouted Flotilla 13ís commander who monitored the operation. The Navy chief was not too far, on board a speedboat belonging to Flotilla 13, along with forces who attempted to climb into the back of the ship.


The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.


Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the riotersí legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.


ďI saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell,Ē one commando said. ďHe fired at us and we fired back. We didnít see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldnít find him.Ē Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.


2 errors

During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.


Some passengers on the ship stood at the back and pounded the soldiersí hands as they attempted to climb on board. Only after a 30-minute shootout and brutal assaults using clubs and knifes did commandoes manage to reach the bridge and take over the Marmara.


It appears that the error in planning the operation was the estimate that passengers were indeed political activists and members of humanitarian groups who seek a political provocation, but would not resort to brutal violence. The soldiers thought they will encounter Bilin-style violence; instead, they got Bangkok. The forces that disembarked from the helicopters were few; just dozens of troops Ė not enough to contend with the large group awaiting them.


The second error was that commanders did not address seriously enough the fact that a group of men were expecting the soldiers on the top deck. Had they addressed this more seriously, they may have hurled tear-gas grenades and smoke grenades from the helicopter to create a screen that would have enabled them to carry out their mission, without the fighters falling right into the hands of the rioters, who severely assaulted them.

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:55
I was talking to Sharon as in "Why are you even bothering, Sharon?".

Oh I see

amore-guy
01-06-10, 18:56
:vlol:

http://i48.************/10f48yg.jpg

Couldnt resist:p but so true lol

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 18:58
I found a first-hand detailed account of what happened here (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html):

yes, thats pretty much everything that happend there, the soliders were equipped with paint guns and they were attacked by the activists, so they had to defend themselves, i saw a clip on tv where a solider was cornered by a few activists and got knifed in the arm by one of them.

tonyme
01-06-10, 18:59
yes, thats pretty much everything that happend there, the soliders were equipped with paint guns and they were attacked by the activists, so they had to defend themselves, i saw a clip on tv where a solider was cornered by a few activists and got knifed in the arm by one of them.

So now it's the activists' fault for attacking? When you see a bunch of soldiers going through you with guns (fake, maybe, but guns nevertheless) do you just sit there staring?

amore-guy
01-06-10, 19:01
yes, thats pretty much everything that happend there, the soliders were equipped with paint guns and they were attacked by the activists, so they had to defend themselves, i saw a clip on tv where a solider was cornered by a few activists and got knifed in the arm by one of them.

Then if you really are innocent why didnt you let them pass?

IceColdLaraCroft
01-06-10, 19:02
So now it's the activists' fault for attacking? When you see a bunch of soldiers going through you with guns (fake, maybe, but guns nevertheless) do you just sit there staring?

They weren't told they were paint guns and since they were in Int'l waters they had no jurisdiction. they were supposed to contact Turkish officials. The Israeli commandos act like they're helpless little children who got attacked. It was a SWAT team boarding a vessel to try to stop it from moving anyway it could.

tonyme
01-06-10, 19:03
They weren't told they were paint guns and since they were in Int'l waters they had no jurisdiction. they were supposed to contact Turkish officials. The Israeli commandos act like they're helpless little children who got attacked. It was a SWAT team boarding a vessel to try to stop it from moving anyway it could.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. They go there, the activists HAVE to protect themselves, of course there's gonna be reaction. By the Israeli soldiers, it was a massive massacre.

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 19:05
So now it's the activists' fault for attacking? When you see a bunch of soldiers going through you with guns (fake, maybe, but guns nevertheless) do you just sit there staring?

The other five ships stopped, didn't give any problems, and nobody got hurt. It was just that one ship where people attacked the soldiers and escalated it until someone died.

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 19:07
Then if you really are innocent why didnt you let them pass?

"you"? are you talking to me as my country? i am not my country, no, but the rest of the ships were taken away with no big issues and Ward Dragon mentioned, it was the Marmara ship that the whole incident happend in.

ggctuk
01-06-10, 19:10
Just like the set up you are doing these day by bashing and humiliating arabs right?

Again, I'll say this clear. I can't expect the people who seem to believe Israel shouldn't exist in this thread to see the picture. I'm not particularly in favour or against Israel. But the picture is this. The Israelis warned them they were approaching an Israeli blockade. Five ships stopped. One did not. They boarded the ship and were attacked. Some even tried to bring the helicopter down by tying it to the boat while it was moving. Several crew members took the commandos' backup sidearms. The Israelis found weapons on board. Yeah, that sounds really peaceful :rolleyes:

amore-guy
01-06-10, 19:11
"you"? are you talking to me as my country? i am not my country, no, but the rest of the ships were taken away with no big issues and Ward Dragon mentioned, it was the Marmara ship that the whole incident happend in.

no of course not you only! i mean the government! Still if its one or ten boats this doesnt give you the right to be aggressive because it was an aid

tonyme
01-06-10, 19:12
The Israelis found weapons on board. Yeah, that sounds really peaceful :rolleyes:

Weapons for protection and for an emergency like what actually happened

amore-guy
01-06-10, 19:13
Again, I'll say this clear. I can't expect the people who seem to believe Israel shouldn't exist in this thread to see the picture. I'm not particularly in favour or against Israel. But the picture is this. The Israelis warned them they were approaching an Israeli blockade. Five ships stopped. One did not. They boarded the ship and were attacked. Some even tried to bring the helicopter down by tying it to the boat while it was moving. Several crew members took the commandos' backup sidearms. The Israelis found weapons on board. Yeah, that sounds really peaceful :rolleyes:

Facepalm with both hands*

Sharon_14
01-06-10, 19:15
no of course not you only! i mean the government! Still if its one or ten boats this doesnt give you the right to be aggressive because it was an aid

no, among the aid there was weaponry, do they really need those weapons in Gaza?

The Israelis found weapons on board. Yeah, that sounds really peaceful :rolleyes:

:vlol: :hug:

oh yes. :ohn:

tonyme
01-06-10, 19:18
The Israelis found weapons on board. Yeah, that sounds really peaceful :rolleyes:

The Israelis attacked everyone on board. Yeah, that sounds really peaceful :rolleyes:

EDIT:

Israel begins releasing flotilla activists as aid reaches Gaza
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 1, 2010 -- Updated 1843 GMT (0243 HKT)

(CNN) -- Israel began releasing activists detained from a Gaza aid flotilla Tuesday as humanitarian cargo aboard the ships was unloaded and taken into the blockaded Palestinian territory.

Israel's moves came as the Jewish state came under blistering international criticism, especially from Turkey, its closest Muslim ally.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused Israel of a "bloody massacre."

"We see clear murder taking place, and we see an aggressive country" that's not regretting this, Erdogan said Tuesday in a parliamentary address. "We're sick and tired of your lies. Be honest."

Also Tuesday, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak approved the opening of the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt for humanitarian purposes, state-owned television reported.

The border crossing linking Egypt to Gaza will be kept open for only a few days, Palestinian officials said.

[...]

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.resolution/?hpt=T1

ggctuk
01-06-10, 19:18
Oh, come on. You can't really be that naive. Cruiseliners don't have weapons. Cargo ships don't have weapons on board. Did the other five have weapons? I doubt it. The only ones wth an excuse to have weapons on board are navy warships, subs, pirate ships etc. I hear a quote: "We were prepared to face human rights activists and instead we found people who came for war."

amore-guy
01-06-10, 19:19
As if Israel was very peaceful! of course they do need these weapons for back up! You never know how the Israeli soldiers will act.. maybe a set up ;)

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 19:21
The Israelis attacked everyone on board. Yeah, that sounds really peaceful :rolleyes:

EDIT:

Israel begins releasing flotilla activists as aid reaches Gaza
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 1, 2010 -- Updated 1843 GMT (0243 HKT)



http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.resolution/?hpt=T1

So Israel is delivering the aid to the Palestinians anyway and there really was no need for the activists to attack the soldiers. They should have just went to the port as directed and the aid would have been delivered without anyone getting hurt.

amore-guy
01-06-10, 19:23
So Israel is delivering the aid to the Palestinians anyway and there really was no need for the activists to attack the soldiers. They should have just went to the port as directed and the aid would have been delivered without anyone getting hurt.

Woopee, Thats the first time they do! Under pressure of course!

Ward Dragon
01-06-10, 19:25
Woopee, Thats the first time they do! Under pressure of course!

Israel has been delivering aid to Gaza for the entire time of the blockade. They don't want any ships going through, but if anyone delivers aid at the port where it can be inspected then it will be delivered overland.