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View Full Version : Female leads don't sell Video Games??


Mr GaGa
05-08-10, 05:43
I am mad because Activision believes that games starring females don't sell well. I mean have they ever heard of this certain game called Tomb Raider, Or Resident Evil :confused:. But this kind of attitude from developers is what I feared. For some reason the Video Game market these days mostly want Male leads in first person shooters, people see a female on a front cover and walk on by, but people see this muscle guy a rushes to get it:confused:. I prefer female leads more than anything in my games, I guess my hopes for a female lead in True Crime is out of the question now since Activision turned out to be sexist :(.

Check it out for yourself here
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=258641

I'm glad that the comments on that site are taking up for Lara:hug:

voltz
05-08-10, 05:56
Well if the idea of political corrective-ness of the female form is any indication, men are finding today's female lead standard lacking to their interests... or overuse of female exposure is starting to wear thin.

If female leads are to be of interest to the gamer demographic again, either get more interesting things happening that change up what we're used to, or sport a pair of bigger boobs.

QiX
05-08-10, 06:03
That's odd, cause male leads are a huge turn off when I choose a game. Mass Effect for instance, the default male Shep in the front cover kept me away from it untill I found out you can customize a female Shepard. I bought ME 1 and 2 then and i'm enjoying them.

Not meant to offend, but why the does the majority of straight guys nowadays hates girls? Isn't it a paradox that someone attracted by hairy muscles call a Tomb Raider fan gay? :confused:

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-08-10, 06:42
I think the main problem is probably the portrayal of women in video games. So many of them look like bimbos, which is pretty much a laughing stock and even embarrassing to admit that you play it. If more women were portrayed seriously, I don't think there would be a problem.

One of the many reasons why Lara needs to evolve from her cartoonish proportions and become more realistic, because people will never take her seriously otherwise.

It's time to put the focus on actually making a good game instead of overly sexualizing a character. I feel like many games think they can get away with being bad because their characters are so sexual, but in all reality, the douches that are into that save a lot more money looking at porn instead.

There's a good reason why we are starting to see more natural and realistic women in video games, and it's about time. :tmb: I think the world is starting to realize that not only does it make the game more serious, but also turns out that the females are much more appealing that way anyway.

WSOwen02
05-08-10, 06:43
Who the **** cares what Activision thinks about anything? Worst publisher in the industry.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 06:45
Speaking to Gama, Activision specifically denies the report, saying "Activision respects the creative vision of its development teams," said the company in a statement. "The company does not have a policy of telling its studios what game content they can develop, nor has the company told any of its studios that they cannot develop games with female lead characters."That better be true. StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty sold more in the first two days of release than any of those mentioned games have done overall (Wet, Bayonetta, etc.) but if Activision thinks that's because the game focused on Raynor rather than Kerrigan they're totally wrong. They better not mess with Heart of the Swarm, and I'll be really angry if they try to make Blizzard tone down Kerrigan's role just because of their market research. Also, if that's what actually happened to StarCraft: Ghost, I think it's time for Nova to call down a tactical nuke :pi: :p The game was put on hold before Activision acquired Blizzard, so I'm mostly tongue-in-cheek here, but I do hope that Activision doesn't interfere if Blizzard wants to continue the game (although it would be awesome to play as Tosh, but I bet their market research wouldn't like that either :rolleyes:)

WSOwen02
05-08-10, 06:55
"Activision respects the creative vision of its development teams," said the company in a statement. "The company does not have a policy of telling its studios what game content they can develop, nor has the company told any of its studios that they cannot develop games with female lead characters."

Except when they tell Infinity Ward they have to make another Modern Warfare, when they tell Treyarch they have to make another Call of Duty, when they Neversoft and Vicarious Visions they have to make another Guitar Hero game(s) . . . etc.

TippingWater
05-08-10, 07:02
I think the main problem is probably the portrayal of women in video games. So many of them look like bimbos, which is pretty much a laughing stock and even embarrassing to admit that you play it. If more women were portrayed seriously, I don't think there would be a problem.

One of the many reasons why Lara needs to evolve from her cartoonish proportions and become more realistic, because people will never take her seriously otherwise.

It's time to put the focus on actually making a good game instead of overly sexualizing a character. I feel like many games think they can get away with being bad because their characters are so sexual, but in all reality, the douches that are into that save a lot more money looking at porn instead.

There's a good reason why we are starting to see more natural and realistic women in video games, and it's about time. :tmb: I think the world is starting to realize that not only does it make the game more serious, but also turns out that the females are much more appealing that way anyway.
:tmb:

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-08-10, 07:18
To further illustrate what I was saying, I definitely get how a female lead can be a turn off to gamers if she looked like this:

http://www.videogamegirlsdb.com/Images/Ninja_Gaiden/Rachel/Rachel_NG_03.jpg

Whether you're a girl or a guy, you can pretty much agree that it makes the game difficult to take seriously with a lead character like that. Even though she's not a lead character, there are many similar, and it gets my point across.

However, if we saw more female leads like this:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs163.snc1/6090_99466303129_31118893129_1957993_2936009_n.jpg

I honestly don't think there would be a problem. She's certainly female, but she's not overtly sexualized in a way that would make a joke out of the game. I feel like a female lead like that could contribute just as well as a male lead, and not make the sales any different.

So if that is the point they are trying to make, I totally get that. However, the article leaves the impression that Activision axes female leads based entirely on the fact that, in their opinion, female leads don't sell well and male leads do.
Let's hope the article blew the entire thing out of proprtion, though.

Paddy
05-08-10, 07:21
Personally whether the main characters female or male doesnt decide if I enjoy a game or not or buy it.

uzivatel
05-08-10, 08:22
Never gave it much thought, but many games with female leads do have slower sales. I am sure its mostly about quality of said games, but who knows? maybe there is more to it?

Ceamonks890
05-08-10, 08:37
OMG! Activision are so sexist!!:mad: Why do they think that female leads don't sell video games? Lara is a perfect example that female leads sell video games. I'm seriously beginning to hate Activision now. They pretty much have ruined almost every franchise they own ex: Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, James Bond and are seriously milking Call of Duty. The only games I buy from Activision really are the Spider-Man, X-Men and Marvel Ultimate Alliance series.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 08:59
Never gave it much thought, but many games with female leads do have slower sales. I am sure its mostly about quality of said games, but who knows? maybe there is more to it?

I really think it does depend upon the quality of the games, or at least how they are marketed and how much quality people think the games will have prior to buying them.

Using TR series as an example, TR1-2 each sold 7-8 million copies whereas I think TR5 was only around 1 million. They both have the same female lead, the difference is that TR5 was generally seen as a cheap cash-in on an old game engine so it didn't sell as well as the games which were revolutionary and had something really new to offer at the times of their release. And also with the recent trilogy, Anniversary sold much worse than the other two games because it was a remake and therefore people perceived that it would be lower quality, or something they had already played, or both.

Not all of course, but many games with female leads are blatantly marketed around the character's body and sex appeal which gives people the impression that the game doesn't have anything else to offer, so if they aren't uncontrollably attracted to the character there's no real reason to buy the game. However, many games with male leads have really good trailers with a lot of action, explosions, and generally what a lot of people look for in a videogame. Not to mention if they've got a really creative marketing team they can come up with trailers that are truly amazing, my favorite being the Madworld trailer for Gears of War which as far as games go is probably the poster-child for the macho-male-lead (I'm looking forward to playing as Anya in the third game though :D) but the story was actually emotionally moving at points (at least in the second game, I've yet to play the first).

It really depends what the game is about, how much it has to offer aside from the main character, and how it is marketed. If the marketing focuses on the story aspects then they'll attract people who like deep stories. If the marketing focuses on the action, then they'll attract people who like action. If the marketing only focuses on the main character's body, then they'll only attract the people who want that. It's up to the developers to make a game with real substance and it's up to the marketing team to get across to customers how much the game has to offer rather than focusing only on one aspect of the game and failing to catch the attention of other people who might also enjoy the game if only they knew what it was really about.

Sharon_14
05-08-10, 09:00
she sold games very well because back then people actually considered her a sex symbol, that's why until today non of the TR games are taken seriously.

Alive_and_Funky
05-08-10, 09:15
I prefer female leads more than anything in my games, I guess my hopes for a female lead in Assassins Creed is out of the question now since Activision turned out to be sexist :(.
Doesn't Ubisoft publish the Assassin's Creed games?

Minty Mouth
05-08-10, 09:31
I prefer female leads more than anything in my games, I guess my hopes for a female lead in Assassins Creed is out of the question now since Activision turned out to be sexist :(.


You can't really accuse them of being sexist. Don't blame Activision, blame the audience. Sure, the bill might fall back on the developers, if it is their representation of females that is to blame for this; but more than anything, if there is a market problem with female leads, it will be purely do do with the fact that the character is female, and will have nothing to do with what kind of female she is. The common gamer, apparently, just isn't as interested in female leads as they are male leads. It's not Activisions fault.

lara c. fan
05-08-10, 09:43
Doesn't Ubisoft publish the Assassin's Creed games?

My thoughts exactly...

Ubisoft Montreal develop, Ubisoft publish. So don't throw away your hopes just yet :p

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 09:46
You can't really accuse them of being sexist. Don't blame Activision, blame the audience. Sure, the bill might fall back on the developers, if it is their representation of females that is to blame for this; but more than anything, if there is a market problem with female leads, it will be purely do do with the fact that the character is female, and will have nothing to do with what kind of female she is. The common gamer, apparently, just isn't as interested in female leads as they are male leads. It's not Activisions fault.

This isn't argumentative because I really don't know the answer, but what recent videogames have there been with a female lead that weren't overly sexualized? The only one I can think of is Mirror's Edge, and that sold just as well as Prince of Persia 2008 which came out at the same time and had a male lead. I really don't think it's purely the character's gender but rather whether the game has anything to offer beyond just the character (which sadly many games don't if they are just relying on T&A to sell the game).

Minty Mouth
05-08-10, 09:56
This isn't argumentative because I really don't know the answer, but what recent videogames have there been with a female lead that weren't overly sexualized? The only one I can think of is Mirror's Edge, and that sold just as well as Prince of Persia 2008 which came out at the same time and had a male lead. I really don't think it's purely the character's gender but rather whether the game has anything to offer beyond just the character (which sadly many games don't if they are just relying on T&A to sell the game).
I think you are giving the 'common gamer' too much credit. The average person buying Call of Duty, GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Burnout, Assassins Creed, that person isn't like us. He isn't a 'gamer', and he doesn't really care what a game can offer beyond the character. He just wants to do cool things and blow stuff up. That market is the one people want to sell to and that market is mainly males who want to live their fantasies through a projection of themselves on the screen. I would say that developers don't bother trying to create female leads unless they are going to sexualise them, because they know that if they don't sexualise them, the game won't sell as well as it would if there were a male lead. The majority of the gaming market is still males, after all, and products are always determined by their audience.

igonge
05-08-10, 09:56
I prefer a female lead actually.

And look at all the Lara love on that page lol (not really love but people are talking about her lol :p)

TRfan23
05-08-10, 10:22
So when a road is being named after Lara Croft people are like, OMG the TR fans secretly hacked Washington and all that crap and moan about it. Now Activision say this and they're protecting her? LOL.

Not the same people obviously, but you know what I mean :)

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 10:42
I think, to an extent, it's true. Of course there are some that are so good they get the recognition they deserve, Tomb Raider and Bayonetta have done well, but gamers (remember it's a mostly male society) seem to take issue with big female game stars.

People outside the TR fanbase often seem to want to take Lara down a notch. A lot of male gamers seem to dislike how a female has achieved the same kind of iconic status that Mario and Sonic have. I did see one comment on an article (where she is refered to as a classic character) saying that she wasn't classic, just old. Yes, and this is when the likes of Mario, some fat plumber who only utters annoying catchphrases, and whos games, on reflection aren't really all they're said to be is considered to be classic.

Anyone who played through Bayonetta would have found a character who put most male leads to shame. Orginal, strong, funny and loveabley cocky Bayonetta's titular character was praised as being an amazing character by critics and fans of the game. But she didn't go well with other gamers who really actually had little intrest in the game anyway. Strong, funny and cocky in a female is everything misogny hates, and it really didn't help that Bayonetta was very much a woman (if you get my meaning). But if we had a male character who was strong, funny, cocky and had sexuality, just imagination how uncontroversial that would be. It's a shame because IMO Bayonetta's game easily trumpted it's male leading competitors.

Of course we live in a more politically correct world, but at the end of the day we are all sub-counciously sexist, racist and etc.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 10:56
Strong, funny and cocky in a female is everything misogny hates, and it really didn't help that Bayonetta was very much a woman (if you get my meaning).

That's debatable. I'm certainly not a misogynist but I couldn't even get through the Bayonetta demo because I really did not like her personality and the gameplay was very repetitive and boring. You saw her as strong, funny and cocky, fair enough, but that doesn't make everyone else a misogynist for finding her to be arrogant and annoying with lame overly suggestive dialogue (not to mention that she is dressed in fetish gear and gets more naked the longer she fights, which clearly would not appeal to everyone).

Shark_Blade
05-08-10, 11:11
I felt all warm inside reading the comments when they mention Lara.:p
Felt proud for the girl, now if only the games get better!

Other female lead that sells are Heather Silent Hill 3, Claire RE CV and Barbie Explorer begs to differ. Joking about the last one though.

interstellardave
05-08-10, 11:29
Female leads shouldn't sell games... nor should male leads. The game should sell itself. I never bought Tomb Raider because of Lara. I didn't love TR early on because of Lara. It was all about the fun of raiding tombs and various other exotic places.

I have my preferences when I can choose characters in games, sure, and they can add to the appeal of a game, but I've never bought a game based on the characters in it!

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 11:38
Female leads shouldn't sell games... nor should male leads. The game should sell itself. I never bought Tomb Raider because of Lara. I didn't love TR early on because of Lara. It was all about the fun of raiding tombs and various other exotic places.

I have my preferences when I can choose characters in games, sure, and they can add to the appeal of a game, but I've never bought a game based on the characters in it!

Exactly :tmb: If it's an RPG where I can design my own character I usually make it look as close to myself as possible, but if the game has a clearly defined character I don't care what gender that character is. The character's personality matters to me of course, especially if the cutscenes/dialogue are getting in the way of the gameplay and annoy me :p But overall the game is a whole package and I think it's a mistake to pin the sales figures entirely upon who the lead character is.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 11:59
That's debatable. I'm certainly not a misogynist but I couldn't even get through the Bayonetta demo because I really did not like her personality and the gameplay was very repetitive and boring. You saw her as strong, funny and cocky, fair enough, but that doesn't make everyone else a misogynist for finding her to be arrogant and annoying with lame overly suggestive dialogue (not to mention that she is dressed in fetish gear and gets more naked the longer she fights, which clearly would not appeal to everyone).Says the person who only played the demo. :rolleyes:

TRfan23
05-08-10, 12:01
I wouldn't have just gotten TR based on the gender of the character.

In fact my dad got my mum the first two TR games, back in the day when my nan was 72, that was when I started liking it due to the raiding and enemies. She's now 81 I think, so 1999. That can't be right? Unless she's 82 or 83 :confused:

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 12:02
Says the person who only played the demo. :rolleyes:

The demo's job is to interest people in buying the game. If the demo is crap, then don't blame poor sales on misogyny. Other games with female leads sold better and that's down to the game as a whole, not the character's gender.

xXhayleyroxXx
05-08-10, 12:03
Oh dear, I'm a bit shocked at that :/
But Lara ftw :vlol:

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 12:07
Female leads shouldn't sell games... nor should male leads. The game should sell itself. I never bought Tomb Raider because of Lara. I didn't love TR early on because of Lara. It was all about the fun of raiding tombs and various other exotic places.

I have my preferences when I can choose characters in games, sure, and they can add to the appeal of a game, but I've never bought a game based on the characters in it!
Exactly. :tmb:
Says the person who only played the demo. :rolleyes:
I agree with Jenni, and I've played the entire main game. One of the things that really bugged me about Bayonetta was her character. I honestly thought the oversexualization was VERY off putting. The demo represented her character enough for Jenni to make a perfect judgement on the character from the main game, Bayonetta really didn't have much more depth than from what was in the demo.

Alive_and_Funky
05-08-10, 12:08
That's debatable. I'm certainly not a misogynist but I couldn't even get through the Bayonetta demo because I really did not like her personality and the gameplay was very repetitive and boring. You saw her as strong, funny and cocky, fair enough, but that doesn't make everyone else a misogynist for finding her to be arrogant and annoying with lame overly suggestive dialogue (not to mention that she is dressed in fetish gear and gets more naked the longer she fights, which clearly would not appeal to everyone).
From what I've heard that side to the game Bayonetta is supposed to be tongue in cheek, taking swipes at games with female characters that are intentionally suggestive (*cough*Dead or Alive!*cough*). However, tongue in cheek or not, I have not bought Bayonetta yet mostly for that reason! I wouldn't want my mum to catch me playing it when Bayonetta is almost naked. XD

Paddy
05-08-10, 12:09
Exactly. :tmb:

I agree with Jenni, and I've played the entire main game. One of the things that really bugged me about Bayonetta was her character. I honestly thought the oversexualization was VERY off putting.
Agreed with both of you there.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 12:11
The demo's job is to interest people in buying the game. If the demo is crap, then don't blame poor sales on misogyny. Other games with female leads sold better and that's down to the game as a whole, not the character's gender.Actually Bayonetta did sell very well and got a string of perfect review scores. ;)
And I love the way nobody takes exception to Ezio's cockiness and sexualisation. :rolleyes:

Paddy
05-08-10, 12:11
Was an average game at best imo. Repetitiveness was one problem I felt with the game.

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 12:12
Actually Bayonetta did sell very well and got a string of perfect review scores. ;)

I don't think she was saying Bayonetta sold bad, I think she was saying if it was a case of a game selling bad. You can't blame the demo for putting people off the main game.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 12:14
Exactly. :tmb:

I agree with Jenni, and I've played the entire main game. One of the things that really bugged me about Bayonetta was her character. I honestly thought the oversexualization was VERY off putting. The demo represented her character enough for Jenni to make a perfect judgement on the character from the main game, Bayonetta really didn't have much more depth than from what was in the demo.

Thank you :hug: I'm usually very good at telling where a game is going, and I have seen several of the cutscenes from later in the game (they were posted here and I had to screen them to make sure they didn't break the T&C :p) so I didn't make my statements out of the blue.

From what I've heard that side to the game Bayonetta is supposed to be tongue in cheek, taking swipes at games with female characters that are intentionally suggestive (*cough*Dead or Alive!*cough*). However, tongue in cheek or not, I have not bought Bayonetta yet mostly for that reason! I wouldn't want my mum to catch me playing it when Bayonetta is almost naked. XD

Exactly. Even if it is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, that doesn't mean I want to stare at her naked ass while she tells me to spank her. That's just not my thing and it's perfectly valid to not like that.

Agreed with both of you there.

Thanks :)

Actually Bayonetta did sell very well and got a string of perfect review scores. ;)

I still stand by my point -- how does it mean someone hates women if they don't like a sexed up dominatrix who constantly strips for the viewer's pleasure? If anything, I would think Bayonetta was aimed at the people who view women as nothing but sex toys.

I don't think she was saying Bayonetta sold bad, I think she was saying if it was a case of a game selling bad. You can't blame the demo for putting people off the main game.

Exactly. Although Underworld did sell better, so yay, go Lara :p

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 12:20
^Exactly, and those are all valid points.
And I love the way nobody takes exception to Ezio's cockiness and sexualisation. :rolleyes:

Ezio wasn't as sexualized as Bayonetta, he actually had depth to him. He wasn't exactly dancing around with his clothes coming off him everytime time he did something. He wasn't sucking on lollipops, and he didn't have a final move called a "Climax". Ezio was a cocky little punk at the start, but later in the game his character was far from being based around sex. Bayonetta was based around a very sexual character who's every move is sugesstive.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 12:24
I still stand by my point -- how does it mean someone hates women if they don't like a sexed up dominatrix who constantly strips for the viewer's pleasure? If anything, I would think Bayonetta was aimed at the people who view women as nothing but sex toys.Hm, yes, people are very naive when it comes to sexism in games. Bayonetta was sexualised, but at the same time she had a strong personality that developed over the game and was a strong, smart, independant woman. Simaliar to Tomb Raider. Yet people say this must sexist. Yet we get games that never recieve this kind of critisicm that blantanly are sexist, GTA4 for example. The respected male cast such as Niko and Patrick are suggested to have had strings of lovers and the player is encouraged to date mulitiple woman in order to have "Warm Coffee" with them. While a female character, Grace who by her own admission likes "fun", is demonised by these male characters as being a whore and recieves much abuse for this. She overall is portrayed as being a negative character for this.

Ezio wasn't as sexualized as Bayonetta, he actually had depth to him. He wasn't exactly dancing around with his clothes coming off him everytime time he did something. He wasn't sucking on lollipops, and he didn't have a final move called a "Climax". Ezio was a cocky little punk at the start, but later in the game his character was far from being based around sex. Bayonetta was based around a very sexual character who's every move is sugesstive.
Bayonetta's character developed too. She obtained more of a motherly instinct due to her relation ship with Cereza and went through an emotional journey. And hey, if you only see Bayonetta as a sexual figure it says more about you than the character.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 12:35
Hm, yes, people are very naive when it comes to sexism in games. Bayonetta was sexualised, but at the same time she had a strong personality that developed over the game and was a strong, smart, independant woman. Simaliar to Tomb Raider. Yet people say this must sexist. Yet we get games that never recieve this kind of critisicm that blantanly are sexist, GTA4 for example. The respected male cast such as Niko and Patrick are suggested to have had strings of lovers and the player is encouraged to date mulitiple woman in order to have "Warm Coffee" with them. While a female character, Grace who by her own admission likes "fun", is demonised by these male characters as being a whore and recieves much abuse for this. She overall is portrayed as being a negative character for this.

Bayonetta is not similar to Tomb Raider in the slightest. Lara is not that sexualized. She's not a dominatrix. She doesn't run around stripping and making sexual comments, or sucking on things while assuming sexual positions for the player to stare at. Lara has class, and that's what makes her a strong, smart independent woman while Bayonetta is just a stereotypical sex object.

Also, GTA has gotten so much flak for pretty much everything that they've done (and they did deserve most of it) so it's naive to complain that GTA never got any criticism. Did you miss all of the lawsuits and controversy around them? They even had to recall one of their games and reissue it without certain content included.

Bayonetta's character developed too. She obtained more of a motherly instinct due to her relation ship with Cereza and went through an emotional journey. And hey, if you only see Bayonetta as a sexual figure it says more about you than the character.

That sword cuts both ways. If you want to see everyone else as a misogynist for not liking Bayonetta, that says more about you than about them.

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 12:40
Bayonetta's character developed too. She obtained more of a motherly instinct due to her relation ship with Cereza and went through an emotional journey. And hey, if you only see Bayonetta as a sexual figure it says more about you than the character.
But did the sexualized nature of her character disappear? No. Did she stop doing suggestive moves, and saying suggestive lines? No. Did she keep her clothes (or hair if you want to get technical) on while doing moves? Once again no. I hardly call her character deep, ever after the whole Cereza thing. She was still based around sex, and was a very sexual figure. Like I said, her character was so over the top with it's sexualization, it's off putting. Why you can't accept that to some people it's not exactly something they would like to play as, than that says a lot about you.
Bayonetta is not similar to Tomb Raider in the slightest. Lara is not that sexualized. She's not a dominatrix. She doesn't run around stripping and making sexual comments, or sucking on things while assuming sexual positions for the player to stare at. Lara has class, and that's what makes her a strong, smart independent woman while Bayonetta is just a stereotypical sex object.

Also, GTA has gotten so much flak for pretty much everything that they've done (and they did deserve most of it) so it's naive to complain that GTA never got any criticism. Did you miss all of the lawsuits and controversy around them? They even had to recall one of their games and reissue it without certain content included.

That sword cuts both ways. If you want to see everyone else as a misogynist for not liking Bayonetta, that says more about you than about them.

Well said. :tmb:

interstellardave
05-08-10, 12:41
Bayonetta is the exact type of game that I might buy when it's $20.00. Enough people say enough good things about it that it could be worth it for that price. Not full price, though, not for me anyway.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 12:44
Bayonetta is not similar to Tomb Raider in the slightest. Lara is not that sexualized. She's not a dominatrix. She doesn't run around stripping and making sexual comments, or sucking on things while assuming sexual positions for the player to stare at. Lara has class, and that's what makes her a strong, smart independent woman while Bayonetta is just a stereotypical sex object.

Also, GTA has gotten so much flak for pretty much everything that they've done (and they did deserve most of it) so it's naive to complain that GTA never got any criticism. Did you miss all of the lawsuits and controversy around them? They even had to recall one of their games and reissue it without certain content included.

That sword cuts both ways. If you want to see everyone else as a misogynist for not liking Bayonetta, that says more about you than about them.Ha. Objects don't have independance, personalitys or emotions, hence Bayonetta is not a sex object. If Bayonetta wants to assume sexual positions she can do so, nobody forces her to in the game, she's simply a free spirit. And again, the point stands, if this was a male that was being sexualised yet still had a personality and strength, you probably wouldn't be condeming it. I never said GTA4 didn't recieve ANY criticism, I was talking about the blantant sexism. And people would argue Lara is a dominatrix, she is dominant over her male opponents. And Lara has never had a personality as big as Bayonetta's, infact she is often closer to being an "object" than Bayonetta is.

That sword cuts both ways. If you want to see everyone else as a misogynist for not liking Bayonetta, that says more about you than about themSame for you. You don't like Bayonetta so she must be sexist. ;)

But did the sexualized nature of her character disappear? No. Did she stop doing suggestive moves, and saying suggestive lines? No. Did she keep her clothes (or hair if you want to get technical) on while doing moves? Once again no. I hardly call her character deep, ever after the whole Cereza thing. She was still based around sex, and was a very sexual figure. Like I said, her character was so over the top with it's sexualization, it's off putting. Why you can't accept that to some people it's not exactly something they would like to play as, than that says a lot about you.She developed, but she didn't turn into a nun. Yes, she was ahead of her time. I guess people are still too conservative.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 12:58
Ha. Objects don't have independance, personalitys or emotions, hence Bayonetta is not a sex object. If Bayonetta wants to assume sexual positions she can do so, nobody forces her to in the game, she's simply a free spirit.

She's a fictional character who was designed around fantasies of how sexual they could make her without getting an AO rating. This is like arguing whether an out-of-character action makes sense in a given scenario when the real point is that the developers make the scenario in the first place and everything that the character does was a conscious decision by the developers to appeal to the gamers one way or another. Lara appeals to people by impressing them with her cleverness and strength while Bayonetta appeals to people by getting naked and talking dirty to them. Completely different approaches with completely different intents on the part of the designers.

And again, the point stands, if this was a male that was being sexualised yet still had a personality and strength, you probably wouldn't be condeming it.

Name one game with a male lead who is constantly stripping, sucking on lollipops, assuming sexual positions, and propositioning the player? I certainly can't think of any, and if such a game did exist I wouldn't buy it either.

And people would argue Lara is a dominatrix, she is dominant over her male opponents.

That's not what dominatrix means. It's an S&M term and Lara certainly does not fit the description.

And Lara has never had a personality as big as Bayonetta's, infact she is often closer to being an "object" than Bayonetta is.

They're both fictional characters who aren't real. The main difference between them is that Lara is meant to have a somewhat realistic and believable personality while Bayonetta is meant to be an extreme caricature of female videogame characters in general. That's a mark in Lara's favor.

Yes, she was ahead of her time. I guess people are still too conservative.

Or they're just not into S&M and don't want to play games centered around an over-exaggerated and heavily sexualized character where everything from cutscenes to gameplay moves are extremely suggestive if not blatantly sexual.

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 13:00
She's a fictional character who was designed around fantasies of how sexual they could make her without getting an AO rating. This is like arguing whether an out-of-character action makes sense in a given scenario when the real point is that the developers make the scenario in the first place and everything that the character does was a conscious decision by the developers to appeal to the gamers one way or another. Lara appeals to people by impressing them with her cleverness and strength while Bayonetta appeals to people by getting naked and talking dirty to them. Completely different approaches with completely different intents on the part of the designers.

Name one game with a male lead who is constantly stripping, sucking on lollipops, assuming sexual positions, and propositioning the player? I certainly can't think of any, and if such a game did exist I wouldn't buy it either.

That's not what dominatrix means. It's an S&M term and Lara certainly does not fit the description.

They're both fictional characters who aren't real. The only difference between them is that Lara is meant to have a somewhat realistic and believable personality while Bayonetta is meant to be an extreme caricature of female videogame characters in general.

Or they're just not into S&M and don't want to play games centered around an over-exaggerated and heavily sexualized character where everything from cutscenes to gameplay moves are extremely suggestive if not blatantly sexual.

Once again well said, I agree completely. :tmb:

Avalon SARL
05-08-10, 13:06
That's pure idiocy IMO

He is probably upset and teased by our Woman ;)

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 13:22
She's a fictional character who was designed around fantasies of how sexual they could make her without getting an AO rating. This is like arguing whether an out-of-character action makes sense in a given scenario when the real point is that the developers make the scenario in the first place and everything that the character does was a conscious decision by the developers to appeal to the gamers one way or another. Lara appeals to people by impressing them with her cleverness and strength while Bayonetta appeals to people by getting naked and talking dirty to them. Completely different approaches with completely different intents on the part of the designers.



Name one game with a male lead who is constantly stripping, sucking on lollipops, assuming sexual positions, and propositioning the player? I certainly can't think of any, and if such a game did exist I wouldn't buy it either.



That's not what dominatrix means. It's an S&M term and Lara certainly does not fit the description.



They're both fictional characters who aren't real. The main difference between them is that Lara is meant to have a somewhat realistic and believable personality while Bayonetta is meant to be an extreme caricature of female videogame characters in general. That's a mark in Lara's favor.



Or they're just not into S&M and don't want to play games centered around an over-exaggerated and heavily sexualized character where everything from cutscenes to gameplay moves are extremely suggestive if not blatantly sexual.Uh huh. You seem very quick to jump on the fact that Bayonetta is a fictional character, designed by someone, but not so much when it comes to Lara. She too was designed, with big breasts, and well, a completely unrealistic body, I wonder what they were trying to do there...

As for the whole S&M, Bayonetta may be sexual but never commits any sexual acts. She may make cheeky innuendos but then again so do a lot of outgoing people. It's just her personality. ;)

Name one game with a male lead who is constantly stripping, sucking on lollipops, assuming sexual positions, and propositioning the player? I certainly can't think of any, and if such a game did exist I wouldn't buy it either.Don't play naive. We both know that a male sucking on lollipops and assuming Bayonetta's "positions" would not be considered sexualisation for Male, just a bit weird. Males are sexualised in media, they are seen half naked and they do make sexual innuendos, only it goes unnoticed, unlike females such as Bayonetta.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 13:56
Uh huh. You seem very quick to jump on the fact that Bayonetta is a fictional character, designed by someone, but not so much when it comes to Lara. She too was designed, with big breasts, and well, a completely unrealistic body, I wonder what they were trying to do there...

And as they become capable of producing better graphics, her proportions become more and more realistic. Also my point was about Lara's personality -- she's never portrayed as someone who intentionally uses sex to tease anybody, and she never makes sexual comments, references, or innuendos in the games. Sure she's meant to be sexy and attractive, but Core and Crystal both had limits as to how far they'd go in a game because they wanted to get across that she relies on her own skills and doesn't resort to using her body to get what she wants.

As for the whole S&M, Bayonetta may be sexual but never commits any sexual acts. She may make cheeky innuendos but the again so do a lot of outgoing people. It's just her personality. ;)

And I don't like her personality. What part of that is hard to understand? Her personality is obnoxious, irritating, self-centered, and completely inconsiderate of anyone else. If she was real I would avoid her like the plague and I'm certainly not paying to watch her dance around stripping on a computer screen. I've got better things to waste my money on :p

Don't play naive. We both know that a male sucking on lollipops and assuming Bayonetta's "positions" would not be considered sexualisation for Male, just a bit weird. Males are sexualised in media, they are seen half naked and they do make sexual innuendos, only it goes unnoticed, unlike females such as Bayonetta.

Right, you can't name a single game like that. I rest my case.

Samsdad
05-08-10, 13:57
Back on topic, I think Dave made an important point when he said that it was the game not the lead charactrer that influenced his buying decision.

My own impression is that games that have female leads tend to rely on the sex of the lead as the draw and not the game itself. TR was lucky in a way because the actual in game character in TR1 was really not that sexy (loved the witch nose and the triangle tits), so the emphasis was on the game and exploration etc.

Today most developers rely on female characters as sex draws (i.e. the nudity in Heavy Rain that really was not germaine to the story or Bayonetta's obvious sexuality) and do so to up sales. Some times they IMO overrely on this at the expense of game play and story.

With male leads the sexual draw is not as important in sales. This is not to say that male virility does not get its own share of over-emphasis, but it is just not as important.

Paddy
05-08-10, 13:57
GTA should use a female protagonist imo, that would be an interesting change :p

interstellardave
05-08-10, 13:59
I think games are still marketed mostly towards males... heterosexual males, in particular. So sexualized male characters in games are less predominant than females... they wouldn't go over as well to the main demographic. Despite companies continuing to talk the talk of expanding to the female market I don't think they've settled into it yet.

GenyaArikado
05-08-10, 14:02
I agree with Super Badnik, Bayonetta was defnitly designed to be extremely sensual (not sexual) but it was more for the LOL factor (I dont think that anyone finds Bayonetta moves SERIOUSLY sexy, or atleast more sexy than hillarious)

Bayonetta is actually the only one genuinely female playable character in the game industry so far, considering that most female Playable characters are either: A) Man in a female body B) Colder than ice C) Lolita or D) Im so hot so people around me check me out.
Bayonetta certanly doesnt behave like a man, she is isnt cold, has kinda childish moments but doesnt behave like a sexy kid and when she dance she isnt doing it to seduce Luka, Rodin, Jeanne or the Laguna, she dances to herself, she does because she likes it not because the others like it

Name one game with a male lead who is constantly stripping, sucking on lollipops, assuming sexual positions, and propositioning the player? I certainly can't think of any, and if such a game did exist I wouldn't buy it either.
Cho Aniki

Mod edit: link removed for inappropriate content

They're both fictional characters who aren't real. The main difference between them is that Lara is meant to have a somewhat realistic and believable personality while Bayonetta is meant to be an extreme caricature of female videogame characters in general. That's a mark in Lara's favor.
Bayo is sensual, over the top, hillarious but all in a tasteful maner (maybe with the expection of her climaxes). Lara was a rock in TR1 (IMO). She still is educated most of the time (on the other hand Jeanne, who is the Umbran Heiress, the closest to cherry pie in their culture is kinda rude and the pouty mouth ever).

That's not what dominatrix means. It's an S&M term and Lara certainly does not fit the description.Bayonetta, besides Joy torture attack, neither, just because she wears a leather looking outfit doesnt mean dominatrix. She doesnt seduces anybody in the game.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:03
Wasnt Lara a character though to show that females can and should be leads just as much as males rather then the idea of sexualising her?

interstellardave
05-08-10, 14:05
Wasnt Lara a character though to show that females can and should be leads just as much as males rather then the idea of sexualising her?

That's the spin on it after the fact. I remember reading way back when that they just thought it was more enjoyable for them to look at a womans' butt through the whole game than a mans butt (a viewpoint I do not disagree with, LOL!).

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:06
Hahaha too true.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 14:09
That's the spin on it after the fact. I remember reading way back when that they just thought it was more enjoyable for them to look at a womans' butt through the whole game than a mans butt (a viewpoint I do not disagree with, LOL!).

I thought it was just because they didn't want to get sued for copying Indiana Jones :p

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:10
Who the **** would wanna copy him? xD

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 14:11
Who the **** would wanna copy him? xD

Our friendship ends here Pat.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:13
Our friendship ends here Pat.
Sorry it had to come to that :p

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:17
And as they become capable of producing better graphics, her proportions become more and more realistic. Also my point was about Lara's personality -- she's never portrayed as someone who intentionally uses sex to tease anybody, and she never makes sexual comments, references, or innuendos in the games. Sure she's meant to be sexy and attractive, but Core and Crystal both had limits as to how far they'd go in a game because they wanted to get across that she relies on her own skills and doesn't resort to using her body to get what she wants.



And I don't like her personality. What part of that is hard to understand? Her personality is obnoxious, irritating, self-centered, and completely inconsiderate of anyone else. If she was real I would avoid her like the plague and I'm certainly not paying to watch her dance around stripping on a computer screen. I've got better things to waste my money on :p



Right, you can't name a single game like that. I rest my case.Right, Lara had an unrealistic body, even when she didn't have to. She was tonned down in Underworld, but before that she looked very unrealistic and sexualised. I did already mention Ezio as being sexualised, but his obvious innuendos apparently don't count. I suppose in a way that shows just how society views men and women differently when it comes to sex. And Bayonetta isn't "self-centered, and completely inconsiderate of anyone else". You may get those assumptions from playing two minutes of the game maybe, but Bayonetta does come to care very much for Cereza, Luka and Jeanne. Bayonetta does also rely on her incredible skill to get what she's after. She never uses her body to get what she wants, she never sleeps with anyone to achieve her aims, like Lara she just happens to have it. Her enemies are a bunch of demonic angels, her body isn't gonna get her very far.

And I love the way my orginal point was actually completely ignored just so some could attack me for playing a video game. TRF hasn't changed an awful lot.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:18
Who was attacking you? Looked all like just giving each other opinions to me :p

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:19
Who was attacking you? Looked all like just giving each other opinions to me :pIt started here:

That's debatable. I'm certainly not a misogynist but I couldn't even get through the Bayonetta demo because I really did not like her personality and the gameplay was very repetitive and boring. You saw her as strong, funny and cocky, fair enough, but that doesn't make everyone else a misogynist for finding her to be arrogant and annoying with lame overly suggestive dialogue (not to mention that she is dressed in fetish gear and gets more naked the longer she fights, which clearly would not appeal to everyone).And just gets more dogmatic after that.

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 14:19
^That's far from her attacking you, I know Jenni, she never attacks anyone.
Who was attacking you? Looked all like just giving each other opinions to me :p

Exactly, there was no attacing envolved. Jenni & I just stated our opinion towards Bayonetta.

Ward Dragon
05-08-10, 14:21
Bayonetta is actually the only one genuinely female playable character in the game industry so far, considering that most female Playable characters are either: A) Man in a female body B) Colder than ice C) Lolita or D) Im so hot so people around me check me out.
Bayonetta certanly doesnt behave like a man, she is isnt cold, has kinda childish moments but doesnt behave like a sexy kid and when she dance she isnt doing it to seduce Luka, Rodin, Jeanne or the Laguna, she dances to herself, she does because she likes it not because the others like it

I disagree with that. I think it's wrong to say that all women have a certain personality type or that a character is a "man in a female body" if she doesn't behave like Bayonetta. I don't like Bayonetta's personality and so far I haven't met any real women who behave like her either so I'm quite sure she's not meant to be a genuine female character (as you said, she was designed for the LOL factor, which didn't really work on me because it made me roll my eyes rather than laugh).

Cho Aniki

Mod edit: link removed for inappropriate content

I had to remove that link for the content, but holy crap, I really don't like that game either, I'm never going to play it, and I never want to see it again :p I'm absolutely certain that a lot of people would complain about that if they actually knew about XD

Bayo is sensual, over the top, hillarious but all in a tasteful maner (maybe with the expection of her climaxes). Lara was a rock in TR1 (IMO). She still is educated most of the time (on the other hand Jeanne, who is the Umbran Heiress, the closest to cherry pie in their culture is kinda rude and the pouty mouth ever).

I don't know who Jeanne is so can't comment on that. I didn't think Bayonetta was funny or tasteful at all, but I really don't care if other people like her. This whole mess started because I was annoyed at the implication that anyone who doesn't like Bayonetta must be a misogynist. That's simply not the case. People can like or dislike her personality without it being a sign of sexism.

Bayonetta, besides Joy torture attack, neither, just because she wears a leather looking outfit doesnt mean dominatrix. She doesnt seduces anybody in the game.

I was commenting on her outfit and dialogue, which seems intended to give the impression that she's a dominatrix even if they don't show any actual bondage on the screen.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:21
I seriously dont see how that was attacking you. Far from it.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:23
Whatever, she still decied to ignore my actual point and attack my opinon instead.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:24
^That's far from her attacking you, I know Jenni, she never attacks anyone.


Exactly, there was no attacing envolved. Jenni & I just stated our opinion towards Bayonetta.
Exactly, overeacting quite a lot tbh.

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 14:24
Whatever, she still decied to ignore my actual point and attack my opinon instead.

So now disagreeing with someone's opinion counts as "attacking" one's opinion? :confused:

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:27
Having been attacked for an opinion myself in the past I can see clearly there was none there, was just an opinion as Nate said.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:27
So now disagreeing with someone's opinion counts as "attacking" one's opinion? :confused:Well yes, she clearly attacked what I had said in my orignal post, not that theres nessacarily anything wrong with that, but my point was simply ignored just so she could spend the last 3 pages bashing a video game she played the demo of.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:28
Wasnt bashing, she gave her reasons why she didnt like the game as did Nate.

trXD
05-08-10, 14:29
Its hard to say, im sure some people are like that, but i really dont care either way.

That's odd, cause male leads are a huge turn off when I choose a game. Mass Effect for instance, the default male Shep in the front cover kept me away from it untill I found out you can customize a female Shepard. I bought ME 1 and 2 then and i'm enjoying them.

That's a bit silly.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:29
Wasnt bashing, she gave her reasons why she didnt like the game as did Nate.Yes, giving reasons in the form of bashing could still be seen as bashing.

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 14:31
Well yes, she clearly attacked what I had said in my orignal post, not that theres nessacarily anything wrong with that, but my point was simply ignored just so she could spend the last 3 pages bashing a video game she played the demo of.

She didn't bash anything, she was stating her opinion of the character she saw in the demo which is a "demonstration" of the game. It's a fair judgement of the game too, I played the full game and I can back up what she said completely. She's also already stated she's had to watch gameplay videos and cutscenes that were posted on this forum to make sure they were appropriate so her judgement isn't exactly wrong. She wasn't bashing anything either, she just clearly stated her opinion that she personally does not like the character, and neither do I. You seem to be the only one who has an issue dealing with other people's opinions. She didn't attack you, you're overacting to be quite honest. Jenni has been nothing but respectful, you're the one making judgements on us calling us conservative.
Yes, giving reasons in the form of bashing could still be seen as bashing.
I wasn't bashing anything, I said I didn't like the character. Where did I say the game was terrible or anything? Right, I didn't.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:32
Wouldnt bother, its just gonna keep going in circles lol.
****ing ridiculous.
She didn't bash anything, she was stating her opinion of the character she saw in the demo which is a "demonstration" of the game. It's a fair judgement of the game too, I played the full game and I can back up what she said completely. She's also already stated she's had to watch gameplay videos and cutscenes that were posted on this forum to make sure they were appropriate so her judgement isn't exactly wrong. She wasn't bashing anything either, she just clearly stated her opinion that she personally does not like the character, and neither do I. You seem to be the only one who has an issue dealing with other people's opinions. She didn't attack you, you're overacting to be quite honest. Jenni has been nothing but respectful, you're the one making judgements on us calling us conservative.

I wasn't bashing anything, I said I didn't like the character. Where did I say the game was terrible or anything? Right, I didn't.
Nah was just an opinion, thats all it was. Just a mountain being made out of a molehill.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:36
She didn't bash anything, she was stating her opinion of the character she saw in the demo which is a "demonstration" of the game. It's a fair judgement of the game too, I played the full game and I can back up what she said completely. She's also already stated she's had to watch gameplay videos and cutscenes that were posted on this forum to make sure they were appropriate so her judgement isn't exactly wrong. She wasn't bashing anything either, she just clearly stated her opinion that she personally does not like the character, and neither do I. You seem to be the only one who has an issue dealing with other people's opinions. She didn't attack you, you're overacting to be quite honest. Jenni has been nothing but respectful, you're the one making judgements on us calling us conservative.Calling you conservative? Now who has an issue? Unless your name is 'People'. Anyway, I played the whole game more than once and what both you and Ward Dragon said was actually incorrect, in that the character does actually go through change and does have a personailty. I don't really see why you have such a big issue with me defending a fictional character, giving my opinon and pointing out a few things about sex in video games.

Oh and Ward Dragon has done just as much arquing as I have in this thread before you decide to go and make judgements on me.

Antonio
05-08-10, 14:43
While I was reading this thread I have see so many different opinions and I realize it's not all about how female characters should look like, it's about how we accepting them. The way how we look and how Activision probably see it, males and females have way different side of view. I'm not talking about likeness, it there behavior. In game (movies and books) when male is lead character, they making game about awesome and badass with a lot action, but when is females takes the lead, the main theme in game is sexy scenes. The problem in most games with female lead character is how we looking it. We all accept that females are gentle and helpless and there secret weapon is sex. Lara is not gentle and helpless character but also she is sexy person and reason is they want to make a assure sells.

I have played Jedi Academy, Rainbow six: Vegas 2, Mass Effect (there are only games which came through my mind) which they have option to make and chose the characters sex. But they all focus as a male character, but when games are focus on females you have feeling that they try to flirting with every character you meet in game. Maybe that is the problem why Activision don't want a females as a leads characters.

In my opinion every game to me is important that is awesome. Games like Jedi Academy, Rainbow six: Vegas 2, Mass Effect I have finished and when I wanted to reply the game sometime I chose a female characters because I want to see how awesome is.

If someday developers make a game like Splinter Cell Conviction as a female lead character with Sam's attitude, definitely I looking forward to the game.:D

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:43
Lol youre seriously overeacting now. You were getting aggressive to begin with. Least thats what it looked like.

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:45
Lol youre seriously overeacting now. You were getting aggressive to begin with.Why? Did my previous post insult anyone? No, I was simply defending myself.

Paddy
05-08-10, 14:45
Why? Did my previous post insult anyone? No, I was simply defending myself.
Neither were they tbh if you think they were why dont you take it up with them privately?

Clara [CA]
05-08-10, 14:47
One of the many reasons why Lara needs to evolve from her cartoonish proportions and become more realistic, because people will never take her seriously otherwise.
While I understand the need to make a 'normal and closer to the potential buyers' character, I do not think that being taken seriously is that important. Lara losing her caricatural features to be 'more like the others' doesn't seem right. To me, a good game stays good, the gender of the main character doesn't matter.

On another hand...
That's pure idiocy IMO
He is probably upset and teased by our Woman ;)
I heard the guy recently lost a lawsuit for sexual harassment :D

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 14:51
Neither were they tbhNever said they did. Attacking an opinon maybe, but that isn't the same as insulting. Have you ever considered that perhaps you have been closer to overreacting than anyone else? Nothing here was aimed at you yet you seemed to have felt the need to take issue with me.

Alive_and_Funky
05-08-10, 14:52
Name one game with a male lead who is constantly stripping, sucking on lollipops, assuming sexual positions, and propositioning the player? I certainly can't think of any, and if such a game did exist I wouldn't buy it either.
Cho Aniki
Argh, you got there before me. :p

You can't even say that Cho Aniki was aimed at females though, wasn't it intended to be homoerotic?

I had to remove that link for the content, but holy crap, I really don't like that game either, I'm never going to play it, and I never want to see it again :p I'm absolutely certain that a lot of people would complain about that if they actually knew about XD
I've heard the sequel is better. (Yep, there's a sequel! I think I heard something about a new PSP game as well.) :p

Despite companies continuing to talk the talk of expanding to the female market I don't think they've settled into it yet.
Unfortunately, I think their ideas of expanding the female games market is something along the line of making games to do with fashion, pets, dancing, etc.

Actually, I saw one of the Dragon Quest IX advertisements on TV earlier today that seemed aimed towards females as it pretty much just featured a girl showing one of her friends (who also happened to be female) how you can customise the characters. Customisation is cool and everything, but the way the advert was so obviously attempting to attract females made me cringe.

Mr.Burns
05-08-10, 14:56
Enough already. Everyone here needs to take a moment to step back, take a breather. If people can't control their emotions then it's best that they leave this thread rather than drag out any drama.

Love2Raid
05-08-10, 15:41
I canīt believe they scrapped the Black Lotus concept, it would have been awesome. :(:(

Damn you Activision. :mad:

On another note, it doesnīt happen very often that I agree so much with those who comment on gaming articles that involve TR/Lara in any way. :D

Super Badnik
05-08-10, 16:35
Enough already. Everyone here needs to take a moment to step back, take a breather. If people can't control their emotions then it's best that they leave this thread rather than drag out any drama.Ok. I'm sorry if I overreacted at anything or if I offended Paddy, Carbonek or Ward Dragon. I don't know why I felt the need to drag out this pointless arquement.

Fallen.Angel
05-08-10, 16:44
If I recall, Final Fantasy XIII did just fine. Sure, people were disappointed with it, but it still sold well nonetheless. Tomb Raider has been incredibly successful, with the exceptions of the last several games, and Bayonetta.... extremely good game but unfortunately it cannot appeal to the majority of people, so it is a bit underrated.

Look at the Resident Evil franchise. In the end, I agree with those who say that the gender of the character doesn't make the game good. Although I myself personally enjoy being able to play as a female lead.

It's a shame they canceled Black Lotus. :(

Mr GaGa
05-08-10, 16:44
I think, to an extent, it's true. Of course there are some that are so good they get the recognition they deserve, Tomb Raider and Bayonetta have done well, but gamers (remember it's a mostly male society) seem to take issue with big female game stars.

People outside the TR fanbase often seem to want to take Lara down a notch. A lot of male gamers seem to dislike how a female has achieved the same kind of iconic status that Mario and Sonic have. I did see one comment on an article (where she is refered to as a classic character) saying that she wasn't classic, just old. Yes, and this is when the likes of Mario, some fat plumber who only utters annoying catchphrases, and whos games, on reflection aren't really all they're said to be is considered to be classic.

Anyone who played through Bayonetta would have found a character who put most male leads to shame. Orginal, strong, funny and loveabley cocky Bayonetta's titular character was praised as being an amazing character by critics and fans of the game. But she didn't go well with other gamers who really actually had little intrest in the game anyway. Strong, funny and cocky in a female is everything misogny hates, and it really didn't help that Bayonetta was very much a woman (if you get my meaning). But if we had a male character who was strong, funny, cocky and had sexuality, just imagination how uncontroversial that would be. It's a shame because IMO Bayonetta's game easily trumpted it's male leading competitors.

Of course we live in a more politically correct world, but at the end of the day we are all sub-counciously sexist, racist and etc.

You speak the truth:tmb:. people at my school hated Bayonetta and didn't even want to give it a try because she was simply a woman, But then god of war 3 came out and everyone went crazy:confused:. I'm a guy and I just don't get it. Bayonetta is 10 times as strong as Kratos and her game was nearly flawless, but everyone wanted GOW3 because he was a big muscular guy.... I'm talking about guys acting like this:eek:.

I wore my tomb raider shirt to school and People looked at me like I was crazy .
I personally think that females are the best fighters, I wish that Chloe was the main character in Uncharted 2.

Lara's Nemesis
05-08-10, 16:46
It would be good if more games gave you the option between male and female for the main character.

Saints Row 2 did a pretty good job of this, I played a female in that.

Lara's home
05-08-10, 16:48
Oh well.

There's a good reason why we are starting to see more natural and realistic women in video games, and it's about time. :tmb: I think the world is starting to realize that not only does it make the game more serious, but also turns out that the females are much more appealing that way anyway.

We are?

tranniversary119
05-08-10, 16:53
As others have already stated, I think it's just the way these female characters are presented that turns some gamers off. Would a hardcore (COD, Halo, Gears of War, etc) gamer want to play a game with
http://i36.************/30vev81.jpg
as a main character, or:
http://i35.************/2hxyl1h.jpg
I'd probably say Master Chief, IMO.

remote91
05-08-10, 16:54
Tomb Raider.. Bayonetta..Beyond Good & Evil..Mirror's Edge.. Silent Hill.. RE..

Mr GaGa
05-08-10, 16:54
Oh well.


We are?

The tomb raider 9 concept is a good example.

http://i30.************/6tlqv8.jpg

Oh and Rubi from Wet

http://www.videogamegirlsdb.com/gamegirl/Images/Wet/Rubi/Rubi_wet_portrait_01.jpg

Games are starting to portray females in reasonable ways, but gamers still hate playing as Females. WET should have sold way more copies than it did.

Lara's home
05-08-10, 17:18
^First is a concept, and Ruby looked like man ingame..
And did WET even sell well?

Carbonek_0051
05-08-10, 17:22
^First is a concept, and Ruby looked like man ingame..
And did WET even sell well?

Rubi didn't look like a man, I really hate when people say that. And yes Wet sold well.

Lara's home
05-08-10, 17:24
Even so, that's pretty much 1 example you (gaga) have there. Concepts do not count since they never represent the end product.
The GOL model was released after the concept art, and it doesn't look very realistic.

EDIT: According to VGchartz (I know it's unreliable), it sold 0,51million units.. Not that good.
EDIT2: Nevermind. I failed. That was for Xbox360, alone. At least I think.

Dennis's Mom
05-08-10, 18:41
The main thing going on is that you've got competing tastes.

For men, it's a lot easier to accept a powerful woman if she's dressed in a "sexy" outfit. I call it the "sure, I can kill you, but here's a nice view so you can hold out hope I'll **** you instead" effect.

When women dress in provocative ways, they acknowledge the power men have over them. They want to be considered attractive to men. They are seeking men's approval. So it doesn't matter if she can backflip onto your shoulders, put your neck in leg vise and break it, she is still weak enough to seek male approval and attention. She always views herself relative to men. Men like this. Frankly, women not interested in being interesting to men are not interesting. :D

Now women, *cough* real women don't view themselves relative to men. They see themselves as people. Oh sure, there's specific times when we are actively seeking a relationship with a man, but by and large, most of our thoughts, wardrobe and activities are not couched in terms of what a man would think about them. We look at female characters like Rachel and think, "Really? You're out to avenge your family and the first thing you think to do is floss your butt?"

So there's this competition: designers think men can't handle a woman character who doesn't need men, and women would rather die than play a woman so in need of male approval she saves the world in a Thong of Shielding.

This is all gross over-simplification, I'm sure, but I think this tug of war exists with designers. I don't think there's any way to continually please both camps.

Survival horror is one genre that seemed to succeed, but I think that is largely because "victim" is one of the allowable characters for women in video games. Both genders can identify with someone thrust into a survival situation, so characters don't have to meet other expectations. Pity survival horror is dead. :(

Samsdad
05-08-10, 19:09
To a certain extent, there is a male flip side to this question. Imagine Uncharted if Drake looked like Jim Parsons from Big Bang. Drake is supposed to be Joe-average-guy but he ultimately comes out to be Joe-super-hero.

Most male leads in games are buff and never seem to break a sweat, can run all day carrying god knows how much weight and leap over obstacles that make me dizzy just to look at. Young male gamers seem to eat that type of image up and I have seen female gamers drool over male leads on more occasions than I care to remember.

Developers seem plenty willing to provide the male/female eye candy to lure gamers.

Sex sells, both the male and female manifestations.

Alpharaider47
05-08-10, 19:10
I think it would be cool to see more games with strong female leads. I kinda like the whole "beautiful but deadly" thing myself, but I don't view it as like a male superiority thing. I think in games I see it more as women have a power over men because not only are many of them beautiful, but they can kill you if they wanted to as well :p But that's me =/

Who the **** cares what Activision thinks about anything? Worst publisher in the industry.
Nah you forgot EA :D

As others have already stated, I think it's just the way these female characters are presented that turns some gamers off. Would a hardcore (COD, Halo, Gears of War, etc) gamer want to play a game with
http://i36.************/30vev81.jpg[/IMG]
as a main character, or:
http://i35.************/2hxyl1h.jpg[/IMG]
I'd probably say Master Chief, IMO.
The hardcore Halo fan is already going to be familiar with Master Chief though =/ Personally I'd play both, but i find Master Chief as a character more appealing because of his anonymity. For all i know it could be me under that armour in the games.

I think that in some cases it comes down to taste in games as well. I don't buy games solely for the lead character, I'm interested in a lot of other aspects as well.

Lara's home
05-08-10, 19:17
To a certain extent, there is a male flip side to this question. Imagine Uncharted if Drake looked like Jim Parsons from Big Bang. Drake is supposed to be Joe-average-guy but he ultimately comes out to be Joe-super-hero.

Most male leads in games are buff and never seem to break a sweat, can run all day carrying god knows how much weight and leap over obstacles that make me dizzy just to look at. Young male gamers seem to eat that type of image up and I have seen female gamers drool over male leads on more occasions than I care to remember.

Developers seem plenty willing to provide the male/female eye candy to lure gamers.

Sex sells, both the male and female manifestations.

I was about to say something similar, but you did a much better job.
And I'm going to say something else, that will probably lead to me being flamed:
Women complain a lot more than men.

larafan25
05-08-10, 19:28
To further illustrate what I was saying, I definitely get how a female lead can be a turn off to gamers if she looked like this:

http://www.videogamegirlsdb.com/Images/Ninja_Gaiden/Rachel/Rachel_NG_03.jpg

Whether you're a girl or a guy, you can pretty much agree that it makes the game difficult to take seriously with a lead character like that. Even though she's not a lead character, there are many similar, and it gets my point across.

However, if we saw more female leads like this:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs163.snc1/6090_99466303129_31118893129_1957993_2936009_n.jpg

I honestly don't think there would be a problem. She's certainly female, but she's not overtly sexualized in a way that would make a joke out of the game. I feel like a female lead like that could contribute just as well as a male lead, and not make the sales any different.

So if that is the point they are trying to make, I totally get that. However, the article leaves the impression that Activision axes female leads based entirely on the fact that, in their opinion, female leads don't sell well and male leads do.
Let's hope the article blew the entire thing out of proprtion, though.

I agree, a lot.:)

Mr GaGa
05-08-10, 19:47
^First is a concept, and Ruby looked like man ingame..
And did WET even sell well?

Rubi doesn't look like a Man :confused: well at least not to me

http://www.villagegamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Rubi.jpg

And WET sold well over 1 million copies;). And her outfit was reasonable and didn't reveal to much. A sequel has to come out:jmp:.

Lara's home
05-08-10, 19:48
I guess we have ot disagree ;p

larafan25
05-08-10, 19:50
Considering men and women are of the same species, they sometimes do look alike.:)

interstellardave
05-08-10, 19:50
When women dress in provocative ways, they acknowledge the power men have over them. They want to be considered attractive to men. They are seeking men's approval. So it doesn't matter if she can backflip onto your shoulders, put your neck in leg vise and break it, she is still weak enough to seek male approval and attention. She always views herself relative to men. Men like this. Frankly, women not interested in being interesting to men are not interesting. :D

This sounds like a classic feminist view of it (the more sexy a woman is the more weak it makes her)... but there's another viewpoint that many women would hold, and that's the fact that women dressing in provacative ways is an exhibition of the power they have over men... particularly if they are strong-willed. It's also a way to demonstrate superiority over other women.

The bottom line is: clothes don't make the woman. A woman is who is she is, and she is what she is. Her choice of clothes could be on account of any one of a thousand reasons.

Tommy123
05-08-10, 19:54
To further illustrate what I was saying, I definitely get how a female lead can be a turn off to gamers if she looked like this:

http://www.videogamegirlsdb.com/Images/Ninja_Gaiden/Rachel/Rachel_NG_03.jpg

Whether you're a girl or a guy, you can pretty much agree that it makes the game difficult to take seriously with a lead character like that. Even though she's not a lead character, there are many similar, and it gets my point across.

However, if we saw more female leads like this:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs163.snc1/6090_99466303129_31118893129_1957993_2936009_n.jpg

I honestly don't think there would be a problem. She's certainly female, but she's not overtly sexualized in a way that would make a joke out of the game. I feel like a female lead like that could contribute just as well as a male lead, and not make the sales any different.

So if that is the point they are trying to make, I totally get that. However, the article leaves the impression that Activision axes female leads based entirely on the fact that, in their opinion, female leads don't sell well and male leads do.
Let's hope the article blew the entire thing out of proprtion, though.

Agree! I think its crap that they think female leads dont sell. I would love to see more female leads IMO.

Clara [CA]
05-08-10, 21:08
Well to be fair the busty one posted by Melonie is ugly.
I was about to say something similar, but you did a much better job.
And I'm going to say something else, that will probably lead to me being flamed:
Women complain a lot more than men.
I was about to say something like that too. Along the years I have read tons of complaints about women in videogames, coming mostly from women. And even though I see myself as a feminist, I also think that game characters should have a strong characteristic design that will allow the public to ID them instantly, like these....
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3580/adaax.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3580/adaax.jpg) http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9229/chunlic.th.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9229/chunlic.jpg)
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1664/mileena.th.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1664/mileena.jpg)http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3826/kaileena.th.jpg (http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3826/kaileena.jpg)http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5785/bloodrayne.th.jpg (http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5785/bloodrayne.jpg)

If each time you play a game with a chick you get the average girl nextdoor... I suppose you might lose interest.

Samsdad
06-08-10, 13:19
Maybe part of the problem is that women tend not to go into the game developemnt industry.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sc-biz-0806-women-gamers-20100805,0,2857114.story

Dennis's Mom
06-08-10, 13:21
This sounds like a classic feminist view of it (the more sexy a woman is the more weak it makes her)... but there's another viewpoint that many women would hold, and that's the fact that women dressing in provacative ways is an exhibition of the power they have over men... particularly if they are strong-willed. It's also a way to demonstrate superiority over other women.

Well, it's still classic male win, if that's the case, isn't it? "We've got 'em believing that they can punish us with cleavage and show up the other girls. Now they'll all have to show us cleavage! Life is good, ain't it, bro?" (I'm suddenly reminded of Futurama's "death by snoo-snoo.")

There's a difference between being sexy and dressing for sex. Women have been sold a cheap bill of goods if they think the only way they can be considered sexy is to have a skin to clothing ratio of 90 to 10.

Isn't there a disconnect for a woman to claim to be intelligent and powerful, yet the only way she can display her power is with her a$$crack? Again, it makes her worth and power completely relative to a man's perception.

The bottom line is: clothes don't make the woman. A woman is who is she is, and she is what she is. Her choice of clothes could be on account of any one of a thousand reasons.

Spoken like a person who has never once looked in the mirror before he left for work wondering if this outfit was "sending the wrong message."

Clothes absolutely do make the woman in any situation where she wants to be viewed as a person and not 'a girl." I realize most of the girls on this forum aren't old enough yet to have careers, but trust me, one does not instill confidence in one's job-related abilities by whale-tailing.

Shark_Blade
06-08-10, 13:34
Rubi doesn't look like a Man :confused: well at least not to me

http://www.villagegamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Rubi.jpg

And WET sold well over 1 million copies;). And her outfit was reasonable and didn't reveal to much. A sequel has to come out:jmp:.She does look like a man to me. Like a Korean film hero or something.

Her outfit is reasonable. And for a sequeal to come out, I hope her face will be more feminine and closer to her original artwork like this:

http://www.videogamegirlsdb.com/gamegirl/Images/Wet/Rubi/Rubi_wet_portrait_01.jpg

ozzman
06-08-10, 14:45
i realy only play as the females, as they usualy run faster, like Jill in RE5, she is one of the most realistic looking female charactors out there, same with Claire, seems capcom isn't like alot of the other companies, the MK team just makes Them Slutty

Sir Croft
06-08-10, 17:37
And it's true. Our very Lara is one of the few exceptions. Limited male players usually think female leads are unrealistic because women are supposed to be weak.

Peanut
06-08-10, 17:40
Melonie, You've got a point Rachel looks disguasting and it's not like Activision is great anyways.

ClankDaxter
06-08-10, 17:45
Who the **** cares what Activision thinks about anything? Worst publisher in the industry.

Agree! The only good games from them where actually the Star Wars (and if I wasn't a fan of the films I'd probably not like those) and the latest Transformer games! Can't remember any games from them that where actually good. Call of Duty is fine but I'm not a big fan of that one...

I don't care what Activision says. There are other plenty of publishers doing a great job with Female Leads. Sega, Square Enix, etc. I like Japanese stuff better! They can portray characters better than anyone else xD

Lara's home
06-08-10, 17:51
And it's true. Our very Lara is one of the few exceptions. Limited male players usually think female leads are unrealistic because women are supposed to be weak.

They have to be so limited that they are retarded? Never heard of that.
Thing is, a lot of men prefer to put themselves as the character. It's a bit easier doing that if the characted is a guy. (Especially if he is masked, like mC). If they are not going to "be" the character, he or she should at least be eye-candy.

Let it be known that, by "a lot of men", I mean most of the guys I have been talking with.


I don't care what Activision says. There are other plenty of publishers doing a great job with Female Leads. Sega, Square Enix, etc. I like Japanese stuff better! They can portray characters better than anyone else xD

That's because they only make female characters. :ton:

ClankDaxter
06-08-10, 18:27
That's because they only make female characters. :ton:

No! They also make male characters... Final Fantasy IX and X are examples of that! They stared male protagonists. Kingdom Hearts aswell! We can consider Sonic male, and etc. They don't "only make female characters"

ozzman
06-08-10, 18:44
there are plenty of strong Female Charactors in games here's a list

Chloe Fraser [Uncharted 2 ,Don't know how to spell well though]
Elene[Uncharted]
Jill Valenting[Biohazerd series]
Lara
Sun Shang Xiang [Dynasty Warriors Series]
Nohime[Sengoku Musou]
Bayonetta
Excella Gionne [Biohazard 5]
Sheva Alomar[Biohazard 5]
Claire Redfield [Biohazard 2/Code Veronica]
Kitana[Mortal Kombat Series]

the list goes on, they just made a huge false statement

Weemanply109
06-08-10, 18:54
Activision = Fail!

Lara's home
06-08-10, 21:47
All PR is good PR suddenly comes to mind..

Tonyrobinson
14-08-10, 08:00
Yes, it's true most female leads are those with huge tits. :o

Lara_Fan_33
14-08-10, 08:07
WOW! :eek: almost every comment on that sight mentions lara! and not only that, most of them are backing lara up, without mentioning her setback a in 2003! :eek: