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Forwen
12-10-10, 12:41
Universities in England should be able to charge unlimited fees, a major review of university funding has recommended.

Lord Browne's review calls for the £3,290 cap on fees, which students borrow in loans, to be scrapped.

Instead it proposes a free market in fees - setting out models of charges up to £12,000 a year for a degree course.

The UCU lecturers' union said the plan was "the final nail in the coffin for affordable higher education".

However, Lord Browne's review makes clear that universities that charge more than £6,000 a year would lose a proportion of the fee to help cover the cost of student borrowing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11519642

ultima espio
12-10-10, 12:56
Heard about that before. I guess that puts a lot of people off going :/

Another Lara
12-10-10, 13:06
I think it's disgusting... looks like we're going back to the old days when only the toffs can afford to go to uni! :mad:

Chocola teapot
12-10-10, 13:11
Rediculous.

Just... Rediculous.

xb4b1x
12-10-10, 13:13
I think it's disgusting... looks like we're going back to the old days when only the toffs can afford to go to uni! :mad:

:mad:

xcrushterx
12-10-10, 14:44
Wow..I disapprove.

Cochrane
12-10-10, 15:56
That sounds like the worst education related idea I’ve heard this decade.

lara c. fan
12-10-10, 15:57
Oh ****.

Mad Tony
12-10-10, 16:07
I think it's disgusting... looks like we're going back to the old days when only the toffs can afford to go to uni! :mad:As Red Ed would say - come off it.

It says in the article that the report sets out a model for fees up to £12,000. That's a lot but not that much. There are student loan services that are there to help people pay for university.

I'm applying for university myself, although I'm aware these changes probably wont be in place until 2012.

Catapharact
12-10-10, 16:14
That sounds like the worst education related idea I’ve heard this decade.

Completely disagree. Its actually been proven that salary caps effect a university's program funding (and as a result, the quality of the education provided) greatly. Removing the cap means students can finally get the high quality education they are paying for.

Have a look at this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/cap-on-university-fees-threatens-uk-science-1805621.html

The cap on student fees must be lifted if universities are to continue to provide the high-quality scientists the UK needs, a leading government adviser warns today.

John Holman, director of the government-funded National Science Learning Centre, said it was "difficult" to see how quality could be maintained without a financial boost.

xcrushterx
12-10-10, 16:15
As Red Ed would say - come off it.

It says in the article that the report sets out a model for fees up to £12,000. That's a lot but not that much. There are student loan services that are there to help people pay for university.

I'm applying for university myself, although I'm aware these changes probably wont be in place until 2012.
Huh? £12k a year is a lot. After a four year degree, even without taking inflation into account that's £48,000. With a student loan or not, that's a lot of money. Here, even overseas students don't have to pay anywhere near that much and their costs are significantly higher than UK residents.

Forwen
12-10-10, 16:18
^Only this article dates from a year ago, and so from before the elections. The coalition is rolling out cuts further this month and the number most commonly floated is 25% for most departments, so removing the cap would first and foremost serve to save that quality of teaching, not boost it.

Mad Tony
12-10-10, 16:22
Huh? £12k a year is a lot. After a four year degree, even without taking inflation into account that's £48,000. With a student loan or not, that's a lot of money. Here, even overseas students don't have to pay anywhere near that much and their costs are significantly higher than UK residents.Yeah, it is a lot hence:

That's a lotIt's just not so high that only rich people will be able to afford going to university.

Ward Dragon
12-10-10, 16:23
Huh? £12k a year is a lot. After a four year degree, even without taking inflation into account that's £48,000. With a student loan or not, that's a lot of money. Here, even overseas students don't have to pay anywhere near that much and their costs are significantly higher than UK residents.

I think he was comparing it to the cost of getting a degree in some other countries. In the US, a four-year degree usually is a few hundred thousand dollars and then most people get some kind of scholarship, financial aid, or loans to help pay for it (which to some extent ends up inflating the costs overall because universities charge tuition rates expecting that students will have this financial aid to help pay for it). But there are still universities with very low or even free tuition. For example, Harvard has a very large endowment and they don't charge any tuition for students whose families make less than $60,000 a year (and low tuition for families who make more than that). So even if the tuition cap is removed in England, that doesn't mean every university will raise costs to an unaffordable level :)

xcrushterx
12-10-10, 16:24
Yeah, it is a lot hence:

It's just not so high that only rich people will be able to afford going to university.
I was targetting the 'not that much', but it is that much. Who wants £48k worth of student loans to pay back when they graduate? That's more than four times to norm.

woody543
12-10-10, 16:32
What annoys me about this, is the fact that lib dems got a lot of votes based on their want to get rid of tuition fees altogether...

Lemmie
12-10-10, 16:34
Completely disagree. Its actually been proven that salary caps effect a university's program funding (and as a result, the quality of the education provided) greatly. Removing the cap means students can finally get the high quality education they are paying for.

Have a look at this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/cap-on-university-fees-threatens-uk-science-1805621.html

Yes, increasing tuition fees by an exorbitant amount would certain offset the government cuts that will be made to research both inside and outside the higher education sector.

How very much better everyone will feel about that.

Catapharact
12-10-10, 16:43
Yes, increasing tuition fees by an exorbitant amount would certain offset the government cuts that will be made to research both inside and outside the higher education sector.

How very much better everyone will feel about that.

Once the government interjects and provides funding for Post-secondary education institutions, it ends up calling the shots on how it precieves the funding should be allocated for programs. In Canada, the University of Toronto (my University) had the same problem with government funded programs (specifically in area of life sciences, Medical Schools and Engineering.) Fortunately, Rothman school of business interjected and provided funds for the programs and created the necessary business realted links for medical related programs.

Now, not only is U of T of the prime and highly recognized schools to get a medical degree from but Rotman in return benifited greatly from establishing contacts with the medical community ;).

Government input in post-secondary education is really not needed.

Mad Tony
12-10-10, 16:44
I was targetting the 'not that much', but it is that much. Who wants £48k worth of student loans to pay back when they graduate? That's more than four times to norm.If people feel it's too much they can just not go.

Cochrane
12-10-10, 16:51
Completely disagree. Its actually been proven that salary caps effect a university's program funding (and as a result, the quality of the education provided) greatly. Removing the cap means students can finally get the high quality education they are paying for.

Have a look at this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/cap-on-university-fees-threatens-uk-science-1805621.html
That is really more of an argument for better funding for the universities, which I agree is a good thing. But why does that have to come from the students? What is the benefit of increasing tuition fees vs. paying for it through taxes?

It's just not so high that only rich people will be able to afford going to university.
It is definitely high enough that many people will not go to university or drop out of university for monetary reasons. Student loans can reduce the pressure somewhat, but not fully eliminate it. For example, if the future of the job market is uncertain, people might face a risk of having a huge loan and no way to pay it off.

Europe, the UK in particular, cannot afford turning people away from getting a university degree for any reason other than that they are too stupid. All future economic growth will be in areas where the majority of workers have to be highly qualified. Not having those qualified people available means no such economic growth. I think we can all agree on that.

Getting a university degree is difficult enough as it is, and that is mostly acceptable. But if there is a chance for finances to become a problem as well, the number of people who’ll even try is definitely going to drop. And that will lead to social selection, where the children of richer families are more likely to get a better education than the children of poorer families. That is not only a social problem, it also means that intelligent people won’t be available for the industry.

The solution to the finance problems is fairly easy, and I am 100% sure that you will totally oppose it: Raise taxes. Or delay tax cuts or similar. The bulk of the money will then come from those who are already successful and through university (assuming they went there, but that is probably quite likely), as opposed to those who might become those some day. Instead of a temporal redistribution of wealth, which is what student loans would be (I transfer my future wealth to now), it would be one through society, but the net effect would not be very different. In fact, for the rich, successful people who went to university, i.e. the kind of people you and I plan to be in the future (I assume), it would be cheaper.

Catapharact
12-10-10, 17:00
What is the benefit of increasing tuition fees vs. paying for it through taxes?

Options.

Not everyone thinks that investing in a post-secondary degree is the right decision for them. So why should they pay taxes for something they don't believe in investing in?

Any and all highly qualified students are given incentives by universities to attend their given program in the form of tuition cuts, scholarships, bursaries, etc. Some Universities in Canada even cover the costs of equipment for highly qualified engineering students.

Universities do provide viable support for those people who have the right stuff to attend their given program of choice.

Cochrane
12-10-10, 17:10
Options.

Not everyone thinks that investing in a post-secondary degree is the right decision for them. So why should they pay taxes for something they don't believe in investing in?
In short: Because they are wrong. I realize that this point of view might not be universally shared, to put it mildly, but I think having more people with a university degree in the country helps everybody, including those who decided not to get such a degree, because people with higher education will, on average, contribute more to the economy than people without.

Any and all highly qualified students are given incentives by universities to attend their given program in the form of tuition cuts, scholarships, bursaries, etc. Some Universities in Canada even cover the costs of equipment for highly qualified engineering students.

Universities do provide viable support for those people who have the right stuff to attend universities.
That is good, but I think a system where this wouldn’t be necessary because going to university is free would be even better.

Forwen
12-10-10, 17:12
It is definitely high enough that many people will not go to university or drop out of university for monetary reasons. Student loans can reduce the pressure somewhat, but not fully eliminate it. For example, if the future of the job market is uncertain, people might face a risk of having a huge loan and no way to pay it off.

You don't begin to pay back until you're earning £21k. Until that moment there's also no interest on your loan. It's also canceled after 30 years (if those changes go ahead) if you never make it past the 21k mark.

Cochrane
12-10-10, 17:15
You don't begin to pay back until you're earning £21k. Until that moment there's also no interest on your loan. It's also canceled after 30 years (if those changes go ahead) if you never make it past the 21k mark.

Ah, OK. Are there any conditions on who can get the loan, or is it open to any student?

Forwen
12-10-10, 17:21
Ah, OK. Are there any conditions on who can get the loan, or is it open to any student?

Currently it's available to all UK and EU students, but I don't know if that would change. The threshold at which the graduates start paying is also scaled to the country they move to, I think.

TheBloodRed
12-10-10, 17:26
Look at the USA's college prices... it is disastrous and death defying(as I don't know how people live through their tuition costs!).

Semesters are upwards from $10k to $30k and especially more than this.

Catapharact
12-10-10, 17:49
In short: Because they are wrong. I realize that this point of view might not be universally shared, to put it mildly, but I think having more people with a university degree in the country helps everybody, including those who decided not to get such a degree, because people with higher education will, on average, contribute more to the economy than people without.

From a personal viewpoint, I completely agree but pragmatically speaking, we just have to settle for the next best thing... For now ;).

More and more jobs are now emphisizing the need for experienced and technically qualified workers so it will automatically shift the market to a point where more and more compaines will actually cover the tuition costs for their workers (my company does that actually.)

Another Lara
13-10-10, 07:51
As Red Ed would say - come off it.

It says in the article that the report sets out a model for fees up to £12,000. That's a lot but not that much. There are student loan services that are there to help people pay for university.

I'm applying for university myself, although I'm aware these changes probably wont be in place until 2012.


I thought you said you didn't come from a rich family?! You really don't understand how finances work if you don't think £12k a year is a lot of money, or "not that much" as you put it...

I went to university, but I was a lucky one as in I still got to live at home and had my parents to support me, so I only needed my student loan to pay for my tuition fees. When I graduated, I was £7,600 in debt, which is nothing compared to what most of my friends had, including credit cards and overdrafts etc to help pay for living expenses and the general cost of being a student for 3 to 4 years.
Even though I graduated 4 years ago, I think I've only just paid off the first £1,500 of my loan, so it will be a good while yet before I can say I'm completely debt free!

The fact that students (not all students admittedly) could end up with at least a £30k debt before they've even got a job is just appalling in my eyes and the fact that you need to add interest to that (even though student loan interest is low, it still exists) and even though the time in which to pay it back has raised, there is no easy way for that amount of money to be paid off in that amount of time, unless you go into an amazing highly paid job (which would mean the more out of your wages each month), which isn't a given with your degree (most employers go for experience rather than qualifications, but how can you get the experience if no one will give you a job?!) so a lot of the time a degree will be seen as an extreme waste of money!

As I know this doesn't count towards all unis (I can see a lot of universities actually using this to their advantage by having low fees) but all the top notch unis like Oxford and Cambridge will I'm sure embrace the opportunity to raise the fees so the poorer families are put off from letting their kids go there even if they have amazing potential.

A cartoon in a paper the other day captured this I think greatly, unfortunately I can't find a copy of it online to post, but basically it was showing how kids with potential but low finances will miss out on a good education because of this, which isn't right.

EDIT: And just so I don't get misinterpreted, I think what the government is planning is a great idea in terms of methods on how it will be paid etc, I just don't agree with taking off the cap, £12,000 a year is way too much money!

jaywalker
13-10-10, 07:58
Yeh theres a lot of `good` things coming out of this report not being `noticed/reported` as the unfortunate big headline of `cap removed` dwarfs all other bits in the media.

Things like a higher pay starting point, ie have to earn £6k more before even start paying. Fact that 30% of lower income family students will get more help to even get into uni.. all very good and positive, but as Another Lara says the removal of the cap will just allow the elite unis to go back to being exactly that and turn their nose up at the ultra bright just because they are not called `Geoffrey Bigusmoneyfamilius Thorpewood III` thats plain wrong.. altho there IS a clause in the report that states to increase the fees would require an explanation and backing up of reasons (but i get feeling i can see what oxford/cambridge will put, here goes `cos we is oxbridge, the end`

TR FAN 18
13-10-10, 10:57
£12,000?! :yik:
No way I'm going to uni then.

scion05
13-10-10, 13:51
Thank god I'm on an NHS funded course.

TR FAN 18
13-10-10, 16:20
I do Open University so I can learn at home. :)
It's far cheaper than going to University.