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Phlip
20-10-10, 17:37
Iranian chocolate thief faces hand amputation

An Iranian judge has sentenced a man convicted of robbing a confectionery shop to have one of his hands cut off, Iranian media report.

... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11559750)

How evil!

Sgt BOMBULOUS
20-10-10, 17:38
I bet he won't steal any more chocolate.

robm_2007
20-10-10, 17:40
He stole chocolate? He should be executed.

Encore
20-10-10, 17:40
What? Chocolate is serious business, guys. :ohn:

TRfan23
20-10-10, 17:41
It's Iran what do you expect, been like this since the Iranian Revolution in 1979.

Wouldn't surprise me if the Government set off Hornets nests in people homes for the thrill ;)


But I wish I could've had that chocolate :(

:}hello friend
20-10-10, 17:41
Sick! Anyone who ATTEMPTS to steal such a delicacy should be severly punished. (Or try not to get caught)

LNSNHGTDS
20-10-10, 17:45
What the...:vlol: That's funny in a sad (But still funny :p .) way.

:}hello friend
20-10-10, 17:49
What the...:vlol: That's funny in a sad (But still funny :p .) way.

It isn't funny, it's fun to joke at.

digitizedboy
20-10-10, 17:52
The irony is people murder in this world and nothing happens, and someone loses their hand over a piece of ****ing chocolate.

Legend 4ever
20-10-10, 17:54
The irony is people murder in this world and nothing happens, and someone loses their hand over a piece of ****ing chocolate.

Bingo.

Phlip
20-10-10, 17:55
Would you people read the damn article. He stole about £500 worth of chocolate.

Not saying that's justifiable, though.

TRfan23
20-10-10, 17:57
Would you people read the damn article. He stole about £500 worth of chocolate.

Not saying that's justifiable, though.

And three pairs of gloves...

Why is the price so high?

Encore
20-10-10, 17:58
Would you people read the damn article. He stole about £500 worth of chocolate.

Not saying that's justifiable, though.

Then why are you telling everyone to read the damn article? Knowing the value obviously doesn't make this news any less preposterous.

lara c. fan
20-10-10, 17:58
I'm pretty sure that if this was maybe even 500 years ago, he'd be dead. And we wouldn't know about it.

:p

ajrich17901
20-10-10, 17:59
Iran needs to get there asses out of the dark ages. This is just sickening.

moodydog
20-10-10, 18:00
and that is why iran is corrupt

digitizedboy
20-10-10, 18:02
Would you people read the damn article. He stole about £500 worth of chocolate.

Not saying that's justifiable, though.

It doesn't say anything about the guy stealing £500 worth of chocolate. It just mentions that he had a large amount of chocolate in his car.

Rai
20-10-10, 18:41
It doesn't say anything about the guy stealing £500 worth of chocolate. It just mentions that he had a large amount of chocolate in his car.

He stole around £500, plus the chocolate and gloves. Still, cutting his hand off is extreme, he will also go to jail. The jail term would have been enough. Cutting Hands off is so last...er century...,millennium?

jackali
20-10-10, 18:45
If someone stole my chocolate, no matter how much of it was stolen, I'd have removed even more than a hand. And, well, I have no gloves to be stolen...

Uzi master
20-10-10, 18:47
Police arrested the man in May after finding $900 (£560), three pairs of gloves and a large amount of chocolate in his car, Fars news agency said.

it says he had money in his car AND the chocolate, so you guys were wrong:p


but yeah that is horrible...

xXhayleyroxXx
20-10-10, 18:48
Gosh, that's horrible, and so harsh!

TRfan23
20-10-10, 18:49
@Uzi master - What a wild interpretation us others have :eek:

voltz
20-10-10, 19:01
I always said that place was the land of the savages...

xXhayleyroxXx
20-10-10, 19:02
^ What a wild interpretation we have :eek:

huh? :p

Avalon SARL
20-10-10, 19:12
well, religiously speaking, the islamic law sentences such punishment for thieves (but i guess after that someone being caught stealing for 3 times and the judge should take into consideration all events that pushed the man to steal)...

Anyway, if one wants to follow the law that is great, but this means that all laws should be applied... not just be choosy.

Like many said, there are many other threats out there and the law should be applied on them too

drakl0r
20-10-10, 19:16
This is sad, but I'm not surprised though. I've seen a horrible vid a few years back, a man getting both his hands and feet cut off..

Cochrane
20-10-10, 19:22
I have to be honest, I don’t really like the Islamic Republic of Iran and its legal system. And this episode has not changed that.

moodydog
20-10-10, 19:25
just type iran into google images and I dont think there is one picture which is decent or can be justified ! :( :mad:

so ****ing corrupt! :hea: :cen:

trXD
20-10-10, 19:27
Yeah that's horrible.

Coincidently I have been learning about this in RE recently, its a rather extreme punishment but its part of the islamic religion, also anyone who commits adultery gets flogged.

lara c. fan
20-10-10, 19:28
just type iran into google images and I dont think there is one picture which is decent or can be justified ! :( :mad:

so ****ing corrupt! :hea: :cen:

Exaggerating a lot there.

How about this one? :p

http://www.ameinfo.com/static/images/countryguides/gallery/iran-1.jpg

Avalon SARL
20-10-10, 19:35
^^^^^^ :p

TRfan23
20-10-10, 19:59
Speaking of harsh punishments. Doesn't one get curious to how much pain certain forms of harm could be, but cringe at the same time?

Yeh I've wanted to know how painful it'd be to have your hands cut off at one point, and I'd imagine it's very painful. Also from what I've been told when you live with no hands for a long time after healing, it feels as though they're kinda there to a certain extent.
I've also wanted to know how painful it'd be, to be in a microwave turned on.

huh? :p

I edited ;)

xXhayleyroxXx
20-10-10, 20:02
I edited ;)

Oh okay ^_^

Dennis's Mom
20-10-10, 20:06
well, religiously speaking, the islamic law sentences such punishment for thieves (but i guess after that someone being caught stealing for 3 times and the judge should take into consideration all events that pushed the man to steal)...


And if there are circumstances, losing a hand isn't going to make it any easier to come by a living honestly . . . .

Melonie Tomb Raider
20-10-10, 20:08
I bet he won't steal anymore chocolate.

:vlol:

Oh gosh, that would be horrible. :eek:

larafan25
20-10-10, 20:16
I bet I could get away with stealing chocolate AND overthrowing the government. :cool:

ozzman
20-10-10, 20:22
now if it was money or something like that, then yes a hand would be ok, but he atleast deserves a finger or toe, in Feudal Japan, you where executed or used to test Swords :D i love Japan :D

Beiber and Gaga need hands chopped for making the worse music ever

Avalon SARL
20-10-10, 20:35
And if there are circumstances, losing a hand isn't going to make it any easier to come by a living honestly . . . .

Punishments teach people :)

that is always the way how people learn lessons
It has always been this way :p

lol
Yes I agree with you, that is why it is not that easy to go and set a punishment as easy as that
the law has got other compilations that according to a fair trial the judge has the right to allow such a punishment or not

I know, with some laws, Islam is very harsh at it, but I still do not mind them because the same way many many people deserve love and kindness,many, many others deserve a punishment for breaking the laws and not being content and accepting their fates

Alpharaider47
20-10-10, 21:19
The way I look at is, you have to respect the laws of where you live. You may not agree with them but you must follow them. If I stole anything, knowing that the punishment was to lose my hand, then i would have no one to blame but myself. And it being a harsh punishment like that sends a pretty strong message. I don't agree with it, but that's how things are there, and this man stole and so he unfortunately has to suffer the consequences of his actions. :o

Lara's home
20-10-10, 22:09
^Say that to the starving.
http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/034/244/original/Quaritch_black_people.jpg?1262894017

Tombraiderx08
20-10-10, 22:14
That is absolutely horrible.

Love2Raid
20-10-10, 22:18
Ouch.

I am not going to defend this form of punishment, which I find barbaric. It's something from old times that just should be banned completely. But that man knew very well what the risk was, the fool. :(

It makes me sick that torture/mutilation/death penalty still exist as a form of punishment.

Lara's home
20-10-10, 22:21
I'm not against death penalty. Some humans are better off dead.
And torture is never okay. The only time I can really "accept" it, would have to be in order to extract vital information from someone closely related to an extremely dangerous organization. Even then, It's scary.

xXhayleyroxXx
20-10-10, 22:23
The way I look at is, you have to respect the laws of where you live. You may not agree with them but you must follow them. If I stole anything, knowing that the punishment was to lose my hand, then i would have no one to blame but myself. And it being a harsh punishment like that sends a pretty strong message. I don't agree with it, but that's how things are there, and this man stole and so he unfortunately has to suffer the consequences of his actions. :o

That's a bit harsh :/ Its a completely different culture to ours.

CiaKonwerski
20-10-10, 22:25
The way I look at is, you have to respect the laws of where you live. You may not agree with them but you must follow them. If I stole anything, knowing that the punishment was to lose my hand, then i would have no one to blame but myself. And it being a harsh punishment like that sends a pretty strong message. I don't agree with it, but that's how things are there, and this man stole and so he unfortunately has to suffer the consequences of his actions. :o

Agreed. :tmb: The man knew the consequences...

^Hayley-It may be a different culture, but rules are rules. One has to learn to abide by them.

Cochrane
20-10-10, 22:27
Punishments teach people :)

that is always the way how people learn lessons
It has always been this way :p

lol
Yes I agree with you, that is why it is not that easy to go and set a punishment as easy as that
the law has got other compilations that according to a fair trial the judge has the right to allow such a punishment or not

I know, with some laws, Islam is very harsh at it, but I still do not mind them because the same way many many people deserve love and kindness,many, many others deserve a punishment for breaking the laws and not being content and accepting their fates
The way I look at is, you have to respect the laws of where you live. You may not agree with them but you must follow them. If I stole anything, knowing that the punishment was to lose my hand, then i would have no one to blame but myself. And it being a harsh punishment like that sends a pretty strong message. I don't agree with it, but that's how things are there, and this man stole and so he unfortunately has to suffer the consequences of his actions. :o

You're wrong, both of you.

First of all, this guy did not choose that law. There are two ways he could have chosen the law:
a) By choosing the country he was living in
b) By voting for a government that passes sensible laws.
Option a) is not practical in most situations, so option b is the important one. You know, freedom, democracy and stuff. If the will of the people changes, then they should be able to abolish a law like that. Obviously, not everyone can agree with every law, but everyone should have an equal shot at changing it, directly or indirectly. Iran, though, is for all points and purposes a dictatorship. People can’t actually vote to abolish laws like that in any way, and that makes it and absolutely any other law in the country inherently unfair.

There is also a second aspect. You seem to believe that a country can pass any law it wants. That may have been true a thousand or even a hundred years ago, but international consensus on that changed long before modern Iran was founded. All nations are bound, morally and (through the UN convention and universal declaration of human rights) legally to respect the basic human rights. That means everybody has (among other things) the right to live and not be harmed, to a fair trial and, if found guilty, to a punishment that is not cruel or unusual. This is not something that the government of Iran can opt out of – this is the cornerstone of the modern world, and it arises directly out of the fact that we humans are something special and have a certain dignity that cannot be taken away under any circumstances. Yes, there are differences in interpretation, but a law stating that you can cut off someone’s hands for a silly little theft like that is indisputably in violation of basic human rights and as such plain wrong.

Lara's home
20-10-10, 22:27
Agreed. :tmb: The man knew the consequences...

^Hayley-It may be a different culture, but rules are rules. One has to learn to abide by them.

Okay. Say your country passes a new law, that allows torture of anyone who steal candy.
Will you be okay with that? If no, why?

xXhayleyroxXx
20-10-10, 22:30
Agreed. :tmb: The man knew the consequences...

^Hayley-It may be a different culture, but rules are rules. One has to learn to abide by them.

Think about how much you use your hands though and how vital they are to us. I've stolen before, and learnt from it. It actually takes something like that to appreiciate the law. Removing a hand is taking it too far, and undignified. He won't even be able to do up his pants. And isn't this the country that stones people to death? correct me if I'm wrong.

lara c. fan
20-10-10, 22:33
He won't even be able to do up his pants.

That's quite possible. It's just harder. :p

xXhayleyroxXx
20-10-10, 22:35
That's quite possible. It's just harder. :p

Dude seriously, I tried everything when I broke my wrist :vlol:

lara c. fan
20-10-10, 22:37
Dude seriously, I tried everything when I broke my wrist :vlol:

I try things when I feel like it. I've done it before, seriously! :p

xXhayleyroxXx
20-10-10, 22:39
I try things when I feel like it. I've done it before, seriously! :p

maybe you have prehensile fingers :p Or maybe I'm stoopid...its a possibility.

lunavixen
20-10-10, 22:42
thats the norm for theft, steal one thing, they take a hand, it's pretty common in some countries

Love2Raid
20-10-10, 22:43
Think about how much you use your hands though and how vital they are to us. I've stolen before, and learnt from it. It actually takes something like that to appreiciate the law. Removing a hand is taking it too far, and undignified. He won't even be able to do up his pants. And isn't this the country that stones people to death? correct me if I'm wrong.
I think we all agree on how barbaric this punishment is and that it doesn't fit in modern society, that's a given. The question is whether you believe it is his fault or not. One one hand it is (pun not intended), because he knew what the risk was when he decided to steal something and he handled out of free will (assuming). On the other hand, like Cochrane said, he never had a say in anything, because Iran really is a dictatorship that is ruled by orthodox and highly conservative religious leaders.

Alpharaider47
20-10-10, 23:24
That's a bit harsh :/ Its a completely different culture to ours.

Which is precisely why I respect it. They created those laws which reflect their culture. Coming from another it's not my place to tell them they're right or wrong :o As an outsider I have to respect and abide by their rules.

Love2Raid
20-10-10, 23:26
Which is precisely why I respect it. They created those laws which reflect their culture. Coming from another it's not my place to tell them they're right or wrong :o As an outsider I have to respect and abide by their rules.
No. :o

Alpharaider47
20-10-10, 23:27
No. :o

I'm speaking broadly here not specifically about Iran. At any rate it's not my place to argue with the government of another country and that's where I stand- right or wrong :o

CiaKonwerski
20-10-10, 23:27
Which is precisely why I respect it. They created those laws which reflect their culture. Coming from another it's not my place to tell them they're right or wrong :o As an outsider I have to respect and abide by their rules.

Precisely.

Love2Raid
20-10-10, 23:33
I'm speaking broadly here not specifically about Iran. At any rate it's not my place to argue with the government of another country and that's where I stand- right or wrong :o
Of course. I'm not judging you for thinking like this. Stoning, cutting off limbs etc. violates human rights and should never be accepted. But when you go to one of the countries where they still practice this madness, as an individual, there is nothing you can do to change things. So you will have to accept the rules because you have no choice.

I think a lot of people who live there would put a stop to this if they could.

Little-Lara
20-10-10, 23:36
thats the norm for theft, steal one thing, they take a hand, it's pretty common in some countries

IMO it's messed up, and shortsighted.

The Great Chi
20-10-10, 23:38
I dont understand these weird rules....

You lose a hand for stealing
Yet for adultery you get flogged.

Surely it should be the offending piece of anatomy that should be cut off for adultery, so they will not think of doing it again :D

jjbennett
20-10-10, 23:38
Do you think the western world would see a decrease in theft if we implemeted this punishment? I personally think so.

Love2Raid
20-10-10, 23:42
Absolutely.

But only 'small' thefts, I don't think it would work against bigger criminals who work on a much larger scale. So you are punishing the wrong people then.

The Great Chi
20-10-10, 23:54
Ah, but what happens if the so called 'guilty party' is found later on to be innoccent.

You cannot stick their head back on again :D

Well you can, but they would still be dead :p

jjbennett
20-10-10, 23:56
Again, like my view on the death penalty, it would need to be a completely sealed case. No doubt of the crime.

Love2Raid
21-10-10, 00:01
Ah, but what happens if the so called 'guilty party' is found later on to be innoccent.

You cannot stick their head back on again :D

Well you can, but they would still be dead :p
Well, you could offer a free prosthesis... :o
No, I'm not being serious. :p

But doesn't the same apply to imprisonment? You can never give someone their years in freedom back.

This way of punishing is wrong not only because it's too 'brutal', but also because it simply doesn't work the way it's intended. Not in this society where organized crime is a much larger problem than people who steal some candy. You can't cut off the hands of both the small thief and the big guy at the top, that wouldn't be fair. Also, the small thief would have a bigger chance to get caught than the bigger criminal. So like I said, you are punishing the wrong people.

Alpharaider47
21-10-10, 00:56
Of course. I'm not judging you for thinking like this. Stoning, cutting off limbs etc. violates human rights and should never be accepted. But when you go to one of the countries where they still practice this madness, as an individual, there is nothing you can do to change things. So you will have to accept the rules because you have no choice.

I think a lot of people who live there would put a stop to this if they could.

Ah, see here we can agree :p I apologize if i came off as rude btw.

scremanie
21-10-10, 00:59
Thank **** I live in Australia.

Lizard of Oz
21-10-10, 01:24
How savage and barbarian.

I really do feel for those people who are unfortunate enough to happen to be born there.

Johnnay
21-10-10, 01:36
because this is coming from Iran.... No Surprises there.

Ikas90
21-10-10, 01:49
This is just retarded.


Umm, the Dark Ages called. They want their justice system back.

scoopy_loopy
21-10-10, 02:20
LOLIran!

Tony9595
21-10-10, 05:01
"he deserves more than that to be honest"

Hairhelmet12
21-10-10, 05:05
Umm, the Dark Ages called. They want their justice system back.

LMFAOLMFAOLMFAO!!

Perfect. :tmb:

cezy rockeru
21-10-10, 05:49
cruel:pi:

Mikky
21-10-10, 12:20
OMG. How ridiculous. God forbid if he stole white chocolate. :vlol:

Keir_Eidos
21-10-10, 12:32
Maybe the mods should implement this punishment for people that spam TRF :tea:

Mikky
21-10-10, 12:36
Maybe the mods should implement this punishment for people that spam TRF :tea:

:vlol:

But in order for that to happen, we'd need to actually meet one of the mods, right? I wouldn't mind, I'd love to meet a mod! :D I can just get a wooden hand later, or something. :ton:

Paddy
21-10-10, 12:45
This is just retarded.


Umm, the Dark Ages called. They want their justice system back.

:vlol: :vlol:

CerebralAssassin
21-10-10, 13:04
poor guy....

hopefully at least they spare him the hand he beats off to:p

jjbennett
21-10-10, 13:37
Oh my lord! :vlol:

michaeldt
21-10-10, 13:40
serves him right

Avalon SARL
21-10-10, 13:42
Maybe the mods should implement this punishment for people that spam TRF :tea:

:D :vlol:
Sounds nice

Sgt BOMBULOUS
21-10-10, 13:43
They should have turned his hand to chocolate. Like in the Treehouse of Horror where Homer get's his head turned into a donut...





http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/742/742680/thesimpsons-devilandhomersimpson_1162263663.jpg

Chocola teapot
21-10-10, 14:12
How tragic.

Shirley_Manson
21-10-10, 15:57
No chocolate is worth a man's limbs. :(
Chocolate is made for enjoyment, it is not reason for severing someone's arms.

Lara's home
21-10-10, 15:59
I'm a bit surprised how you all joke about a guy losing an arm because he stole chocolate, but thinks that it's the most inhumane thing in the world to put a cat in the bin.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
21-10-10, 16:01
I'm a bit surprised how you all joke about a guy losing an arm because he stole chocolate, but thinks that it's the most inhumane thing in the world to put a cat in the bin.

Hey don't look at me... I see the humor in both. :p

Shirley_Manson
21-10-10, 16:05
I'm a bit surprised how you all joke about a guy losing an arm because he stole chocolate, but thinks that it's the most inhumane thing in the world to put a cat in the bin.

And I see inhumanity in both.
*Sigh*

Spong
21-10-10, 16:14
I'm a bit surprised how you all joke about a guy losing an arm because he stole chocolate, but thinks that it's the most inhumane thing in the world to put a cat in the bin.

That's kids for ya :rolleyes:

Frankly, I don't see what people are complaining about, especially those people from countries that still support the death penalty.

Lara's home
21-10-10, 16:15
Hey don't look at me... I see the humor in both. :p

Sorry, but I'm waaay to lazy to look at someone else. :ohn:

Ward Dragon
21-10-10, 16:19
Frankly, I don't see what people are complaining about, especially those people from countries that still support the death penalty.

Usually people only support the death penalty for extremely violent crimes (serial killings and mass murder). In this case the criminal appears to be a non-violent thief, so it's completely a different situation.

Spong
21-10-10, 16:31
Usually people only support the death penalty for extremely violent crimes (serial killings and mass murder). In this case the criminal appears to be a non-violent thief, so it's completely a different situation.

Granted, but on the flip-side I've seen people say they'd happily gun a person down in so-called "self defence" if that person merely broke into their home. But I digress...

Ward Dragon
21-10-10, 16:33
Granted, but on the flip-side I've seen people say they'd happily gun a person down in so-called "self defence" if that person merely broke into their home. But I digress...

That's because most thieves who are only after stealing stuff will stake out the house and break in when no one's home. If someone breaks in while the people are at home, chances are they intend violence. In that case I think it's totally understandable that people would want to defend themselves.

interstellardave
21-10-10, 16:45
^^^ Well said... when someone breaks into your home and you're confronted by them it could be you who is severly hurt or killed. You don't have time to wonder what they will do if you don't act first.

Spong
21-10-10, 16:58
^^^ Well said... when someone breaks into your home and you're confronted by them it could be you who is severly hurt or killed. You don't have time to wonder what they will do if you don't act first.

Therein lies the fundamental difference between others and myself. I'd never inflict harm on anyone first, not even if there was a possibility of them doing harm to me. Getting the pre-emptive doesn't justify any kind of violence, reasonable restraint maybe, but violence? No. If I got shot and killed because I failed to react first, then so be it. At least I'd die in the knowledge that the moral high ground is mine. That's more important to me than stopping someone nicking my Xbox.

But anyway, wandering off-topic somewhat...

Alpharaider47
21-10-10, 17:06
^^ I wouldn't necessarily intend to harm someone who broke into my house, but I'll take any means at my disposal to tip the odds in my favour. If they see you're armed they might high tail it out of there without taking anything. If they're armed then I'll have no sympathy and shoot first :o To me, if someone breaks into your house armed- they mean business.

xXhayleyroxXx
21-10-10, 18:06
Which is precisely why I respect it. They created those laws which reflect their culture. Coming from another it's not my place to tell them they're right or wrong :o As an outsider I have to respect and abide by their rules.

So you think stoning women for looking at men other than their husbands is okay?

Spong
21-10-10, 18:14
So you think stoning women for looking at men other than their husbands is okay?

What does it matter if we personally feel it's right or wrong? As Alpharaider said, it's not our place to say, we just have to respect their law.

xXhayleyroxXx
21-10-10, 18:16
What does it matter if we personally feel it's right or wrong? As Alpharaider said, it's not our place to say, we just have to respect their law.

*shrugs* I think some cases I've heard of are very wrong -- and I don't respect their law if things like that can happen. I guess I'm never going to Iran then...

Spong
21-10-10, 18:19
I guess I'm never going to Iran then...

That'd probably be for the best ;)

Ward Dragon
21-10-10, 18:19
*shrugs* I think some cases I've heard of are very wrong -- and I don't respect their law if things like that can happen. I guess I'm never going to Iran then...

Pretty much. I have a basic sense of morality and human rights, and any law which violates that is wrong in my opinion, regardless of whether it's culturally acceptable elsewhere.

xXhayleyroxXx
21-10-10, 18:21
That'd probably be for the best ;)

I know right :p :vlol:

Pretty much. I have a basic sense of morality and human rights, and any law which violates that is wrong in my opinion, regardless of whether it's culturally acceptable elsewhere.

High 5!

MangelinaJolie
21-10-10, 18:23
High 5!

I just wanted to point out the irony of this in context with the thread... :vlol:

xXhayleyroxXx
21-10-10, 18:25
I just wanted to point out the irony of this in context with the thread... :vlol:

Oh you :p

Dennis's Mom
21-10-10, 19:12
I just wanted to point out the irony of this in context with the thread... :vlol:

Good one! :D

Laras Dream
21-10-10, 21:58
Every country should be like Iran. I love their system. :D

trlestew
21-10-10, 22:07
*Defends Iran by saying "That is their law" and causes a whole bunch of political drama and stuff for not bashing them*

Cochrane
21-10-10, 22:14
*complains about many people disagreeing with one particular opinion, but refuses to provide any new arguments in favor of that opinion*

Mona Sax
21-10-10, 22:31
I think there are limits to what kind of behavior can be excused by cultural differences - otherwise, the most horrible atrocities could be justified, and human rights would lose their universal validity.

In this particular case, the damage done to the store owner and the retaliatory measures are in no reasonable balance at all. Therefore, the sentence is unjust, regardless of moral doctrine. It would be wrong in London as well as in Tehran.

Apathetic
21-10-10, 22:33
I think there are limits to what kind of behavior can be excused by cultural differences - otherwise, the most horrible atrocities could be justified, and human rights would lose their universal validity.

In this particular case, the damage done to the store owner and the retaliatory measures are in no reasonable balance at all. Therefore, the sentence is unjust, regardless of moral doctrine. It would be wrong in London as well as in Tehran.

Exactly x100.

Legends
21-10-10, 22:36
This is why I never ever plan to visit Iran. Not because I plan to steal, but its ridicules what the laws are.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
21-10-10, 22:36
Has anyone considered a comparison of petty theft statistics there and elsewhere? I can't help but wonder if laws this harsh are better at deterring crime. I'm not attempting to justify them, but they have to have come about based on some logic, as hard as that is to wrap our heads around.

Apathetic
21-10-10, 22:41
Has anyone considered a comparison of petty theft statistics there and elsewhere? I can't help but wonder if laws this harsh are better at deterring crime. I'm not attempting to justify them, but they have to have come about based on some logic, as hard as that is to wrap our heads around.

There's a difference between harsh and immoral.

Mona Sax
21-10-10, 22:43
Well, experiences with the death penalty show that it does not have a deterring effect, quite the opposite. I imagine it's the same with dismemberment. The only thing that seems to prevent crime is a high probability of getting caught. A highly efficient police force seems to be more important than harsh penalties.

Another factor is social control. In Japan, for example, committing a crime has a very negative impact on your family's social status. The result is the lowest amount of violent crimes worldwide.

lara c. fan
21-10-10, 22:45
Another factor is social control. In Japan, for example, committing a crime has a very negative impact on your family's social status. The result is the lowest amount of violent crimes worldwide.

I think that's mainly because Japan is quite the respect-based country, whereas countries like England and America aren't, really.

Mona Sax
21-10-10, 22:47
Yes, absolutely. People don't want to lose face at any cost - that means they will not only hesitate to commit crimes themselves, they will also keep an eye on any family members likely to break the rules.

lara c. fan
21-10-10, 22:48
Yes, absolutely. People don't want to lose face at any cost.

So a translation of Japan's system wouldn't really work over here.

Ward Dragon
21-10-10, 22:50
Another factor is social control. In Japan, for example, committing a crime has a very negative impact on your family's social status. The result is the lowest amount of violent crimes worldwide.

Japan's legal system is also stacked against the defendant. If someone gets accused of a crime they're pretty much done no matter how much evidence they have proving their innocence. Japan also has capital punishment and is relatively efficient at carrying out the sentences as soon as the final appeal has been exhausted. Those factors probably play into the low crime rate as well.

Mona Sax
21-10-10, 22:51
So a translation of Japan's system wouldn't really work over here.
I don't think it's possible to basically import a worldview, no. There are other kinds of social control that could work, though - community centers, charity work, social solidarity. Providing alternatives to a criminal lifestyle, basically.

Mona Sax
21-10-10, 22:54
Japan's legal system is also stacked against the defendant. If someone gets accused of a crime they're pretty much done no matter how much evidence they have proving their innocence. Japan also has capital punishment and is relatively efficient at carrying out the sentences as soon as the final appeal has been exhausted. Those factors probably play into the low crime rate as well.
Yes, I think the conviction rate is at about 99%. If you get caught, you're screwed.

Personally I don't think that system is desirable at all. It's just not possible for a legal system to avoid prosecuting innocent citizens with a conviction rate that high.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
21-10-10, 22:59
Well, experiences with the death penalty show that it does not have a deterring effect, quite the opposite. I imagine it's the same with dismemberment. The only thing that seems to prevent crime is a high probability of getting caught. A highly efficient police force seems to be more important than harsh penalties.

Another factor is social control. In Japan, for example, committing a crime has a very negative impact on your family's social status. The result is the lowest amount of violent crimes worldwide.

Yeah but that's because in the US the bureaucracy will keep you alive for as long as 20 years even after you're sentenced to death. In the end there is little difference between the death penalty and a long prison sentence. If however, the system were more swift, and punishment dealt out more quickly, it might be more effective.

Mona Sax
21-10-10, 23:09
That is true. Instant fines and bans issued during sports events have proven to leave a bigger impression than an ordinary prosecution. The problem is that it's much harder to guarantee a fair trial.

TRfan23
21-10-10, 23:18
Speaking of capital punishments is it true that it's cheaper to do them, then to put someone in prison?

Lara's home
21-10-10, 23:34
I think that's mainly because Japan is quite the respect-based country, whereas countries like England and America aren't, really.

Look up Norway. We treat our prisoners extremely good compared to most other countries, and our statistics are rather low.

Mad Tony
21-10-10, 23:43
I think that's mainly because Japan is quite the respect-based country, whereas countries like England and America aren't, really.I think you're being a bit harsh on Britain and America and bit generous on Japan there. While honor does play a bigger part in Japan I wouldn't go as far as to say people respect each other more there.

Dennis's Mom
21-10-10, 23:45
Speaking of capital punishments is it true that it's cheaper to do them, then to put someone in prison?

Not in the US. The endless appeals process consumes far more resources than life in prison would.

larafan25
21-10-10, 23:46
Woah did the title of this thread just change!? D:

Ooooo it's magic!

TRfan23
21-10-10, 23:51
^ Either you've psychologically made me think the same. Or it's the same title but you're mind is playing tricks on you? :confused:

Not in the US. The endless appeals process consumes far more resources than life in prison would.

Then my RE teacher (back at school) was correct then (just sometimes I found she got her facts wrong).

Spong
21-10-10, 23:52
Woah did the title of this thread just change!? D:

What? No.

Ward Dragon
22-10-10, 00:11
Yes, I think the conviction rate is at about 99%. If you get caught, you're screwed.

Personally I don't think that system is desirable at all. It's just not possible for a legal system to avoid prosecuting innocent citizens with a conviction rate that high.

I agree, I don't think that system is desirable either. I was responding because you made the argument that the death penalty isn't a deterrent, but then you pointed to Japan's low crime rate when Japan has the death penalty. I was trying to make the point that any given system has a lot of factors influencing the outcome, so we have to be careful when assuming that a low (or high) crime rate is because of any one policy or custom. Japan's low crime rate might be because of the focus on social responsibility, or it might be because of fear of getting prosecuted and/or executed, or maybe because of something else that we haven't even considered.

I think different policies might be effective in different countries depending upon all of the unique characteristics of that country. I'm fine with each country deciding upon a policy that works for it, as long as those policies don't violate my idea of human rights. Dismembering people does violate my idea of human rights (along with executing people for nonviolent crimes or without a fair trial) so I will never agree with such policies no matter where they occur.

Mona Sax
22-10-10, 16:05
I was mainly referring to studies in the US (Japan is just the best example for the social factor). Some of them show a negative correlation between the death penalty and the number of murders (which would implicate a deterring effect), while others show a positive one (usually attributed to a brutalizing effect on society - 'the state kills people, so it must be acceptable'). It's also possible that some societies are more violent for other reasons and therefore rely on harsher punishment.

I think that ultimately, it's impossible to isolate a single factor. We may get closer to an ideal penal system - whatever 'ideal' means in a particular time and environment! - but ultimately, crime is a subject so complex that we may never fully understand all of the influences.

Peanut
22-10-10, 16:58
Wow.. They take Islamic laws to the max. :eek:
I find it hilarious. :vlol:

toxicraider
22-10-10, 17:32
You need to take into account other factors, for example, looking at population pyramids for Japan and the US, clearly shows that Japan has a much older population.
http://images.nationmaster.com/images/pyramids/us-2010.png
http://images.nationmaster.com/images/pyramids/ja-2010.png

The number of people that would represent the peak criminal age is significantly lower in Japan - For example, in the US, male 20-24 year olds make up the 2nd largest group, representing about 3.5% according to that diagram, whilst in Japan that group makes up closer to 2%. Obviously I'm not suggesting that all crimes are carried out by male 20-24 year olds, or youths in general, but a country with half the population over 45, and a third of the population over 60, is probably going to have a lower crime rate per capita, regardless of what punishments are available.

tampi
22-10-10, 17:54
'the state kills people, so it must be acceptable'). t.


This sentence is appalling and is effective in some situations. I dont know whether it should be acceptable. I have doubts.:confused:

The truth is that the state wants healthy citizens, workers and bring wealth to their particular political machine. Everything else is expendable, just allow it to avoid the population against them.

Lara Croft!
22-10-10, 18:16
Amputation for a chocolate? And I was just wondering how different countries have so different beliefs and laws. It's just beyond me. Even if we took the "eye for an eye" cruel law, he should give money to pay for the chocolate, not have his hand cut off. So, I guess if he had stolen a bike, he would never walk again. Or even worse a belt -he'd be cut in half.

Dennis's Mom
22-10-10, 18:52
In its proper context, "eye for an eye" was revolutionary. It meant that the punishment should fit the crime. So if someone stole one of your sheep, you couldn't steal all of his as retaliation.

Solice
23-10-10, 03:38
Would you people read the damn article.


That just gets in the way of opinions :D

lunavixen
25-10-10, 12:21
IMO it's messed up, and shortsighted.

oh i quite agree but unfortunately it's still happening

peeves
25-10-10, 16:47
I can't believe how strict people are in other countries. In fact some guy named steven told me in China if people misbehaved in jail they'll cut that person's hands off.