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IceColdLaraCroft
11-11-10, 01:53
This is "freedom of speech" gone too far

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/amazon-defends-sale-of-pedophile-guide-book-20101111-17o56.html

Online retail giant Amazon is under fire for selling a self-published digital book called The Pedophile's Guide to Love and Pleasure.
The reviews page for the book, by a Phillip R. Greaves and available for Amazon's Kindle electronic reader, was deluged with criticism of the Seattle, Washington-based Amazon for offering it for sale.
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"This is a joke, right? What reputable business would even consider allowing this book to be sold from their website?" said a visitor identified as "Emerald Storm." "This is absolutely despicable."
"Shame on Amazon for allowing such garbage to be sold on its site," said another with the handle "thirty something."
The book, whose full title is The Pedophile's Guide to Love and Pleasure: A Child-Lover's Code of Conduct, had received more than 305 "reviews" with 297 giving it a one-star rating, the lowest possible.
Most of the "reviews" were appeals to Amazon to remove the book.
"Amazon, you might want to consider taking this horrid book off your website if you want to have any business this holiday season," wrote "ecirtap."
"Shame on you, Amazon, for allowing a book like this to be uploaded for purchase! This book gives advice to people about something that is ILLEGAL in every state in this nation. It needs to be removed from the site immediately," wrote another customer.
In a statement distributed to TechCrunch and other technology blogs Amazon said it "believes it is censorship not to sell certain books simply because we or others believe their message is objectionable.
"Amazon does not support or promote hatred or criminal acts, however, we do support the right of every individual to make their own purchasing decisions," it said.
In a product description to sell the book, the author frames it as an attempt "to make pedophile situations safer for those juveniles that find themselves involved in them, by establishing certain rules for these adults to follow.
"I hope to achieve this by appealing to the better nature of pedosexuals, with hope that their doing so will result in less hatred and perhaps liter sentences should they ever be caught," Greaves says.

egypt_gypsie
11-11-10, 01:55
O_O

Catracoth
11-11-10, 01:57
I need my pills.

Catapharact
11-11-10, 02:01
I am going to be sick...

How nice... Here we are trying to throw the book at preds and pedos and Amazon wants to create "a safe environment with rules" for them. I hope to God that this is actually a sting operation set up by amazon and the interpol to nail sick *******s around the world.

IceColdLaraCroft
11-11-10, 02:04
I'm pretty sure that if someone buys the book they're put on a watch list

voltz
11-11-10, 02:06
Lol!!!

MattTR
11-11-10, 02:09
The Kindle fails. :whi:

voltz
11-11-10, 02:11
The Kindle fails. :whi:

Wha- you just tried to download it? That sucks. :)

MattTR
11-11-10, 02:12
Wha- you just tried to download it? That sucks. :)

Nope, I'm just stating it fails. :vlol:

I don't read enough to even consider buying one. :ton:

robm_2007
11-11-10, 02:12
I hope all you fellow pedophiles will be able to buy my book, I will be having a book signing and book reading tour starting in NY and finishing in San Diego.

Make sure to bring any kids you know! ;)

Gladous
11-11-10, 02:13
The Pedophile's Guide to Love and Pleasure

Dear... God. :(

That title just proves that the book is a... gross thing? :p

IceColdLaraCroft
11-11-10, 02:18
I wonder if there's a section on Justin Beiber

voltz
11-11-10, 02:20
I wonder if there's a section on Justin Beiber

:smk:

Trigger_happy
11-11-10, 02:25
It has to be a very awkward joke. No one would actually make a book on paedophilia, would they? Would they?

EDIT: From reading the product description, I've decided it was written by a child of incest. There's so many spelling mistakes its untrue. They're either some freakish mutant child with 4 heads, or the ultimate troll. And I'm not talking "My Immortal" kinda troll either.

Evan C.
11-11-10, 02:26
Are you kidding,right?

voltz
11-11-10, 02:27
It has to be a very awkward joke. No one would actually make a book on paedophilia, would they? Would they?

They could, but then again it would have to be a pretty dark sense of humor. If it were a real guide as everyone seems to be going into shock over, then you could keep an eye out and watch something like this get banned from the marketplace.

Andyroo
11-11-10, 02:27
Wow that's twisted. But not really that surprising considering some other books (and any other media - games/movies etc.) there are out there.

There needs to be a very thick line between "freedom of speech" and stuff like this.

leglion
11-11-10, 02:29
This is disgusting... Only in America it seems. :rolleyes:

Trigger_happy
11-11-10, 02:30
Whats even more worrying is that its currently 96th on the Kindle's best sellers list. That either means there's only 100 book on the Kindle, or there's a hell of a lot of kindle owning peadoes. I hope it's the first.

robm_2007
11-11-10, 02:33
This is disgusting... Only in America it seems. :rolleyes:

America is wierd.
-------------------
anyways, who is the publisher? i wonder what other books theyve published.

leglion
11-11-10, 02:36
Does anyone know who wrote it?

Trigger_happy
11-11-10, 02:37
Yeah, Philip R. Greaves, here's a link to the Amazon page for it:

Mod edit: link removed (don't want to accidentally advertise that book)

robm_2007
11-11-10, 02:38
Does anyone know who wrote it?

Roman Polanski?

voltz
11-11-10, 02:38
This is disgusting... Only in America it seems. :rolleyes:

pfft, lolwut?

Ever check japan?

Trigger_happy
11-11-10, 02:39
^ You can buy used knickers from vending machines in Japan. Creepy.

leglion
11-11-10, 02:41
^ You can buy used knickers from vending machines in Japan. Creepy.

Not any more you can't.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411gNQpy98L._SL150_.jpg

I'd hate to generalize but this man looks like your typical paedophile: bald, nerdy, and lonely.

robm_2007
11-11-10, 02:41
^ you can buy used knickers from vending machines in japan. Creepy.

I.......am......SO..........THERE...........

^edit: aWWWW

voltz
11-11-10, 02:42
School girls.... tentacles... etc etc....

Trigger_happy
11-11-10, 02:43
^^ Just steal them then- its not like people don't have them on them...


EDIT: The book and the row over it has just made it to the BBC news website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11731928

robm_2007
11-11-10, 02:45
School girls.... tentacles... etc etc....

just like in Princess Robot Bubblegum:

"Monster, Monster, Rapey Time!"

voltz
11-11-10, 02:46
just like in Princess Robot Bubblegum:

"Monster, Monster, Rapey Time!"

I'm so going to look for that now.

Trigger_happy
11-11-10, 02:51
Its just been removed- or Amazon have closed the site- but it doesn't appear any more.

robm_2007
11-11-10, 02:53
I'm so going to look for that now.

its a tv show from The Ballad of Gay Tony, in GTA IV. its really funny.
----------
is there a reason why the book was removed (by Amazon?)

Phlip
11-11-10, 03:00
is there a reason why the book was removed (by Amazon?)

OMFG LOL, as if it isn't obvious. :vlol: :vlol:

robm_2007
11-11-10, 03:07
OMFG LOL, as if it isn't obvious. :vlol: :vlol:

i mean did Amazon give a reason. they did put it on their site, so perhaps it was all just for publicity.

EscondeR
11-11-10, 06:09
Yuck!

The world is decaying :rolleyes: They censor (bash with all political correctness arguments) what can be seen in the "Police Academy" e.g. yet they allow that crap to come afloat :hea:
TBH I rather like America of 70-90's than this modern castrated yet obsessed version *sigh*

Avalon SARL
11-11-10, 06:59
This is so sad :(
Pity :hea:

scremanie
11-11-10, 07:17
Too bad Michael Jackson died. :(

Miharu
11-11-10, 07:34
I think...I think I'm gonna throw up.

Punaxe
11-11-10, 10:13
I'd have to see the contents of the book itself before commenting on it.

Lara Croft!
11-11-10, 10:34
I would justify the selling of this book, if the buyers were tracked down and killed.

IceColdLaraCroft
11-11-10, 11:14
It has to be a very awkward joke. No one would actually make a book on paedophilia, would they? Would they?

EDIT: From reading the product description, I've decided it was written by a child of incest. There's so many spelling mistakes its untrue. They're either some freakish mutant child with 4 heads, or the ultimate troll. And I'm not talking "My Immortal" kinda troll either.

:vlol: spelling mistakes doesn't make one a incest survivor where'd that logic come from :confused:


I have learned that most pedophiles were themselves sexually abused as children, so it's built into them that it's part of growing up.

And the sales of the book are more from the controversy and curiosity of news readers than actual pedos.

interstellardave
11-11-10, 11:45
I am surprised that so many people judge a book by it's title, so to speak. I don't see any discussion about what the actual content of this book is! In one news article I did see that the author wants to guide pedophiles in how to abide by the law. Does that sound bad?

If someone has that inclination, but does not act on it, they have done nothing wrong. It could be--although I don't know for sure 'cause no one seems to care about what this book actually says enough to tell us--that this book doesn't "help" pedophiles to better act on their desires but, rather, to cope with them and not act upon them.

Now, really, which do you think is more likely?

igonge
11-11-10, 11:47
...







...?

Lenochka
11-11-10, 11:50
I am surprised that so many people judge a book by it's title, so to speak. I don't see any discussion about what the actual content of this book is! In one news article I did see that the author wants to guide pedophiles in how to abide by the law. Does that sound bad?

If someone has that inclination, but does not act on it, they have done nothing wrong. It could be--although I don't know for sure 'cause no one seems to care about what this book actually says enough to tell us--that this book doesn't "help" pedophiles to better act on their desires but, rather, to cope with them and not act upon them.

Now, really, which do you think is more likely?

I agree.

If this truly is some sort of guide for those troubled individuals I don't see anything wrong with it. Better having them read this and possibly learning something instead of creeping around looking for a victim.

Gladous
11-11-10, 12:14
This is disgusting... Only in America it seems. :rolleyes:

Winner of most ignorant post goes to Leglion! :yah:

:rolleyes:

Legend of Lara
11-11-10, 12:17
I'm curious as to what this offending tome actually contains.

tomblover
11-11-10, 12:56
I'm curious as to what this offending tome actually contains. Advice on 'grooming'? :p

But yeah, Japan is so much worse. They make up for it by being ridiculously awesome, though.

Squibbly
11-11-10, 13:05
I read about this earlier this morning. I feel disguted. In another article, I read some quotes by the author:


"True pedophiles love children and would never hurt them," Greaves told CNN.

He said he considers his book a how-to guide for pedophiles to indulge their fantasy while abiding by U.S. laws.

"I wrote the book to establish guidelines so that people would behave in a manner that is non-injurious to each other," he told ABC News.

"Penetration is out. You can't do that with a child, but kissing and fondling I don't think is that big of a problem," Greaves told CNN.


http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/amazoncom-yanks-philip-r-greaves-pedophilia-e-book-amid-boycott-threats/19712148


Yeah, thing is, what pedophiles do to children DOES hurt them, no matter which way you go about it or how you look at it. Even if not damanging them physically, they will emotionally, and that more often than not is much worse.

I'm sickened by his words... that kissing and fondling should be acceptable.

"...I hope to achieve this by appealing to the better nature of pedosexuals, with hope that their doing so will result in less hatred and perhaps liter sentences should they ever be caught," Greaves says.

No. You touch a kid, in any inappropriate way, something needs to be done about it. Current sentences are not harsh enough.

The whole "free speech" bit shouldn't apply in this case. I'm sure that the First Amendment was to also protect the proliferation of pedophilia. :rolleyes:

Mikky
11-11-10, 13:08
Oh, wow. I'm actually speechless.

interstellardave
11-11-10, 13:12
^^^ Thanks for providing some insight into what he is saying...

Okay then, he IS advocating inappropriate behavior... kissing and fondling, IS inappropriate! I would defend him if he was helping people with pedophile tendencies to deal with them; turn that desire into something else or indulge it in some way that doesn't harm anyone... but he's trying to say "a little bit isn't bad". That's a mighty slippery slope...

tomblover
11-11-10, 13:13
/headdesk

Miharu
11-11-10, 13:13
I read about this earlier this morning. I feel disguted. In another article, I read some quotes by the author:





http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/amazoncom-yanks-philip-r-greaves-pedophilia-e-book-amid-boycott-threats/19712148


Yeah, thing is, what pedophiles do to children DOES hurt them, no matter which way you go about it or how you look at it. Even if not damanging them physically, they will emotionally, and that more often than not is much worse.

I'm sickened by his words... that kissing and fondling should be acceptable.

"...I hope to achieve this by appealing to the better nature of pedosexuals, with hope that their doing so will result in less hatred and perhaps liter sentences should they ever be caught," Greaves says.

No. You touch a kid, in any inappropriate way, something needs to be done about it. Current sentences are not harsh enough.

The whole "free speech" bit shouldn't apply in this case. I'm sure that the First Amendment was to also protect the proliferation of pedophilia. :rolleyes:

There's only one thing to do...

ARREST THE AUTHOR.

Phlip
11-11-10, 13:31
Too bad Michael Jackson died. :(
LOL! :vlol:
I'd have to see the contents of the book itself before commenting on it.
This. I don't even know what it's actually about...
i mean did Amazon give a reason. they did put it on their site, so perhaps it was all just for publicity.

No it just said the page can't be found. I don't think Amazon has stated an official reason anywhere.

Squibbly
11-11-10, 13:58
^ I think the quotes by the author I posted are enough to judge by.
The guy has pretty much stated that it should be fine to do things with a child that are arguable in court.

He seems to also be saying that the harm done to a child is purely the physical harm, and that's what should be avoided. That is very, very false.

Phlip
11-11-10, 14:32
^ I think the quotes by the author I posted are enough to judge by.
The guy has pretty much stated that it should be fine to do things with a child that are arguable in court.

He seems to also be saying that the harm done to a child is purely the physical harm, and that's what should be avoided. That is very, very false.

Yeah, I missed your post.

I think it's ****ed up. Amazon was selling a book saying it's ok to break the law and psychologically damage children! ****ing idiots.

Encore
11-11-10, 14:56
I can understand Amazon's position though. Just think: should they ban everything that has content that promotes murder and violence as well? Oh, there goes half the movie and videogame stock collection....

The issue, for me, is not whether this book is "acceptable", because it obviously isn't; the issue is what precedent will banning said book open up.

Phlip
11-11-10, 15:15
I can understand Amazon's position though. Just think: should they ban everything that has content that promotes murder and violence as well? Oh, there goes half the movie and videogame stock collection....

The difference with this is that it isn't fiction.

Miharu
11-11-10, 15:16
I can understand Amazon's position though. Just think: should they ban everything that has content that promotes murder and violence as well? Oh, there goes half the movie and videogame stock collection....

The issue, for me, is not whether this book is "acceptable", because it obviously isn't; the issue is what precedent will banning said book open up.

I dont think movies/videogames really promote violence well I guess they do... but in the case of movies/videogames it's not really encouraging people to go out and start shooting people or stabbing them with knifes...

Where as this book is pretty much: How to be a pedophile 101, which in my eyes is pretty encouraging and promotes it.

Plus movies/videogames are all fiction, no-one gets hurt for real and you'd have severe mental issues to go out and kill someone because they did it in the movie. Whereas the book...I'd like to call it non-fiction but it's just too unacceptable/disturbing to be called non-fiction.

Squibbly
11-11-10, 15:17
I can understand Amazon's position though. Just think: should they ban everything that has content that promotes murder and violence as well? Oh, there goes half the movie and videogame stock collection....

The issue, for me, is not whether this book is "acceptable", because it obviously isn't; the issue is what precedent will banning said book open up.

I see what you're saying, but the movies and games that have content regarding muder and violence aren't blatant how-to guides. That's the sick part.

Encore
11-11-10, 15:17
The difference with this is that it isn't fiction.

Then what about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mein+kampf&x=0&y=0

Phlip
11-11-10, 15:21
Then what about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mein+kampf&x=0&y=0

That'd educational. Not promoting doing the stuff Hitler did or w/e.

Miharu
11-11-10, 15:23
Then what about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mein+kampf&x=0&y=0

Isn't that book used more for educational purposes?

Plus the man was IMHO completely deranged so it's no surprise that he would promote or encourage violence but I kind of doubt his book did.

interstellardave
11-11-10, 15:23
The prospect of banning books based on the ideas presented within is much worse than just publishing this book and letting people decide for themselves. As usual the controversy surrounding this book--based on the actions of those protesting it--have given it far, far, greater prominence than it ever would have had otherwise.

BTW, this book is supposed to be educational, too... it purports to help people understand pedophiles better according to the author.

Squibbly
11-11-10, 15:26
Then what about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mein+kampf&x=0&y=0

Although what Hitler did was unspeakably evil, it's not comparable as Mein Kampf has a strong historical purpose. We shouldn't ignore/ban anything related to the genocide. It should be remembered.

Mein Kampf is historically relevant since it's the diaries of the most famous madman ever. I don't think we can compare these writings with a "how to fiddle children without going to jail" manual written by some pedo.

Miharu
11-11-10, 15:27
The prospect of banning books based on the ideas presented within is much worse than just publishing this book and letting people decide for themselves. As usual the controversy surrounding this book--based on the actions of those protesting it--have given it far, far, greater prominence than it ever would have had otherwise.

BTW, this book is supposed to be educational, too... it purports to help people understand pedophiles better according to the author.

The book in my eyes seems only educational to pedophile's...so they dont get caught, I dont possibly see how it helps other people understand.

Encore
11-11-10, 15:29
The prospect of banning books based on the ideas presented within is much worse than just publishing this book and letting people decide for themselves.

My feelings exactly.

That'd educational. Not promoting doing the stuff Hitler did or w/e.

You can argue that anything can be maintained for educational purposes. Even the pedophile book. Psychologists could say it was a way to understand how their mind works.

That'd educational. Not promoting doing the stuff Hitler did or w/e.

It was written by Hitler himself, so yes, it was meant as a promotion of his own beliefs. Neo-nazis still take their ideas and inspiration from it. It was banned in my country for some time for that exact reason, and even though I hate fascism as much as the next person, I didn't agree with it back then because I believe freedom of expression is too important a right to be dropped at the least sign of fear.

interstellardave
11-11-10, 15:40
The book in my eyes seems only educational to pedophile's...so they dont get caught, I dont possibly see how it helps other people understand.

Well neither of us has read it, so we can't be sure either way. I'm going by his stated intentions, though. The book might have many different aspects to it for all we know.

Miharu
11-11-10, 15:44
Well neither of us has read it, so we can't be sure either way. I'm going by his stated intentions, though. The book might have many different aspects to it for all we know.

It could...

But...

^^^ Thanks for providing some insight into what he is saying...

Okay then, he IS advocating inappropriate behavior... kissing and fondling, IS inappropriate! I would defend him if he was helping people with pedophile tendencies to deal with them; turn that desire into something else or indulge it in some way that doesn't harm anyone... but he's trying to say "a little bit isn't bad". That's a mighty slippery slope...


Changed your mind?

But anyways the idea of kissing and fondling a kid that's not yours nor related sounds politically incorrect as it is.

Chocola teapot
11-11-10, 15:46
Good Lord.

Can they not take it down?

Squibbly
11-11-10, 15:49
Mein Kampf is not a how-to manual.

You're not allowed to sell books that explain the best way to dispose of bodies, nor videos that explain the best way to create bombs.

What the pedobook seems to be, judging by the author's own quotes, is a tutorial on how to get around the law and still be sexually active with children. He clearly said that fondling should be okay.

The issue isn't the fact that the book has pedophilia in it. The fact is that the book is like an instruction manual on how to be pedophilic, and it's dangerous because that encourages the proliferation of pedophilia.

Zebra
11-11-10, 15:53
As disgusting as this might be, from a logical point of view, Amazon is perfectly right. It WOULD be censorship to take this product off their site. However, I think writing a guide to how pedophiles can live with who they are WITHOUT committing crimes would have been a far smarter move than teaching them how to avoid being caught. That doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help the pedophiles who follow these advices and it most certainly doesn't help the children involved (That depends on the advices given in the book, of course, but something like this is always terrible for a child, no matter what kind of "rules" there are).

interstellardave
11-11-10, 15:56
It could...

But...



Changed your mind?

But anyways the idea of kissing and fondling a kid that's not yours nor related sounds politically incorrect as it is.

No changing of my mind... I would not advocate his idea that kissing and fondling is right behavior. That doesn't mean that everything in his book is wrong or inappropriate, however. None of it means that Amazon should cave into pressure and stop selling this book. If their principle is that they don't remove books from sale based on the ideas in them then this book has to be part of that.

Writing a book is not a crime. Buying a book is not a crime. Reading a book is not a crime. Ideas are not crimes.... and, lastly, neither are thoughts.

Miharu
11-11-10, 16:01
No changing of my mind... I would not advocate his idea that kissing and fondling is right behavior. That doesn't mean that everything in his book is wrong or inappropriate, however. None of it means that Amazon should cave into pressure and stop selling this book. If their principle is that they don't remove books from sale based on the ideas in them then this book has to be part of that.

Writing a book is not a crime. Buying a book is not a crime. Reading a book is not a crime. Ideas are not crimes.... and, lastly, neither are thoughts.

Oh ok, now I see your point.

But I think it was only a matter of time before that notorious book was removed.

But I do believe promoting something in terms of "how to do this" in the subject of violence, pedophilia etc. etc. is a crime well should be treat as a crime. Pedophiles need help with a therapist, not some self-help book that says, "you can do this, to satisfy your urges without being arrested" is just wrong, to me it's saying "you can kiss and fondle and USE a kid, so you can get some sexual kick out of it."

Maybe the author does have some valid and fair points but right now he hasn't painted a pretty picture.

Lara's home
11-11-10, 16:04
This book is a must have!
Also, very disappointed with the lack of pedobear. Especially you LoL. Very disappoint indeed.
http://ellectu.net/404/pedobear.png

Encore
11-11-10, 16:05
Mein Kampf is not a how-to manual.

You're not allowed to sell books that explain the best way to dispose of bodies, nor videos that explain the best way to create bombs.

What the pedobook seems to be, judging by the author's own quotes, is a tutorial on how to get around the law and still be sexually active with children. He clearly said that fondling should be okay.

The issue isn't the fact that the book has pedophilia in it. The fact is that the book is like an instruction manual on how to be pedophilic, and it's dangerous because that encourages the proliferation of pedophilia.

All fair points, but I should remind you that in the US there is a lobby group called NAMBLA that promotes pedophilia and is allowed to operate because of the right to freedom of speech. This is no different. I tell you, NAMBLA disgusts me and all of these things thread a fine line between what should be legal and what shouldn't.... But it's certainly not a straightforward, black and white issue. Mostly it's an issue of what constitutes a priority in a democracy.

MangelinaJolie
11-11-10, 16:07
You're not allowed to sell books that explain the best way to dispose of bodies, nor videos that explain the best way to create bombs.

Mod edit: removed a referral link to a product (was The Anarchist's Cookbook)

Then what's that?

interstellardave
11-11-10, 16:10
Well as far as "kiss and fondle" goes I wonder whether or not that's even in the book. Obviously he thinks that shouldn't be wrong, based on statements he's made, so that may be his view, but I don't see how he can tell people that they can actually do that as if it's legal. If his book truly helps pedophiles keep within the law then it can't tell them to kiss and fondle children!

Tear
11-11-10, 16:12
This is despicable.:rolleyes:

xXhayleyroxXx
11-11-10, 16:20
That needs to be burned immediantly 0_0 all copies!

Squibbly
11-11-10, 16:23
Although some may like to entertain the idea that we live in a society that supports free speech unconditionally, it's simply not true. What is acceptable and what is censored changes based on the society.
Society has spoken on this issue, and it seems that most people believe that the pedobook is not something that should be protected under free speech, so supporters of "free speech" need to understand that it's not a hard rule where everything is accepted. It's based on what society can accept and this book is not that.

As for what the book is about, you don't need to read it if the author has given his own synopsis. Shouldn't that be the most credible of sources?
If you needed to write a book report on Harry Potter, wouldn't you trust JK Rowling to fill you in enough for you to know what's going on?

Perhaps it doesn't explicitly state that you can foddle kids, but it seems clear to me that he's telling pedophiles they're not really that bad, it's okay what they do. Anything that isn't penetration can be arguable in court, and it seems to me that's just what he's saying. To be careful of how far you go to avoid getting caught. :rolleyes:

Encore: NAMBLA sickens me beyond words. I didn't even think of them until you said that. It is kind of the same thing, you're right. However, since Amazon isn't a government, it doesn't have to worry about any constitutional laws. It just needs to appease its customer base. And since there's been enough of a stink raised about the book, it's in Amazon's best interest to scrap it. So, if free speech supporters think that this is ridiculous, they can start their own e-book store and sell the pedomanual.
With companies, it is far more black & white than in government: Do a significant amount of customers want it banned? How will this affect our corporate image? If their brand won't take too much of a hit and lots of people want it banned, there is no corporate constitution binding their hands.

interstellardave
11-11-10, 16:33
If you are advocating majority rule on issues like this, Squibbly, then I beg you to think it through. Sure today it's this pedophile book... tomorrow it could be a book about Muslims, or a book that is critical of government policy, etc, or a book that seeks to help people understand the views of terrorist organizations... basically any kind of ideas that many people might find wrong or offensive.

This is exactly the place where freedom of speech has to be protected because it's the first place it will be assailed--but hardly the last. Has history taught us nothing?

snork
11-11-10, 16:39
I'm pretty sure that if someone buys the book they're put on a watch list

:D

Really, I don't expecct a copy to be sold for this very reason - well maybe to some journalists who want to find out about this.

RockSteady101
11-11-10, 16:44
Is it a bad time to say I'm expecting mine in 2-3 weeks?

xb4b1x
11-11-10, 16:48
Is it a bad time to say I'm expecting mine in 2-3 weeks?

:vlol:

Squibbly
11-11-10, 16:52
Dave:
It's simple economics: If retailer x does go off the deep end and start banning media left and right, they will open up niches for new competitors in the market. Companies will always provide what people demand if they can make a profit. As long as it's a company doing the censoring you have nothing to worry about because due to economics and the capitalist system, there will almost always be somewhere you can buy anything. Except if it's banned by government.


No one is stopping the pedoauthor from writing, they're just stopping him from selling it at Amazon. He can still sell an e-Book on his own.

Legend of Lara
11-11-10, 16:52
This book is a must have!
Also, very disappointed with the lack of pedobear. Especially you LoL. Very disappoint indeed.
http://ellectu.net/404/pedobear.png

:(

Mad Tony
11-11-10, 16:54
If you are advocating majority rule on issues like this, Squibbly, then I beg you to think it through. Sure today it's this pedophile book... tomorrow it could be a book about Muslims, or a book that is critical of government policy, etc, or a book that seeks to help people understand the views of terrorist organizations... basically any kind of ideas that many people might find wrong or offensive.That's ridiculous. You can't defend the sale of a book like this simply by saying it could lead to the banning of books that really shouldn't be banned. It's like saying people shouldn't be stopped from protesting violently because it might one day lead to peaceful protests being stopped too.

interstellardave
11-11-10, 17:11
Dave:
It's simple economics: If retailer x does go off the deep end and start banning media left and right, they will open up niches for new competitors in the market. Companies will always provide what people demand if they can make a profit. As long as it's a company doing the censoring you have nothing to worry about because due to economics and the capitalist system, there will almost always be somewhere you can buy anything. Except if it's banned by government.


No one is stopping the pedoauthor from writing, they're just stopping him from selling it at Amazon. He can still sell an e-Book on his own.

True, but Amazon clearly decided to sell it originally and they defended their stance. What is going on now is a mob trying to force them not to sell it despite their decision--based on their principled beliefs. These protestors would not want anyone else to sell it either, trust me. They would want it banned outright, like Mad Tony does.

That's ridiculous. You can't defend the sale of a book like this simply by saying it could lead to the banning of books that really shouldn't be banned. It's like saying people shouldn't be stopped from protesting violently because it might one day lead to peaceful protests being stopped too.

I believe that concepts such as free speech are universal. No crime is committed here. It's a book that espouses ideas that I personally don't advocate--and most people don't--but nothing about it is criminal. It's just a book. Anyone who reads it hasn't committed a crime by doing so either.

Cochrane
11-11-10, 17:12
Free speech has inherent limits (the famous "fire in a crowded theater" line comes to mind). I certainly don‘t think a book like that should be published, because from the description in that article, I think there is a good reason that it can have a harmful effect on society.

However, creating the legal basis for banning such a book seems extremely difficult to me, because any law that banned this could also be applied to ban a lot of other books that are not currently favored by a government. Many examples of what is today considered world literature were once banned, because they were considered harmful to children or to society or something like that. Ultimately, I think it would be better if that book remained available and nobody read it (which I think is very likely already) than if a legal basis for censorship was created.

Should Amazon sell that book or not? It is not illegal, nor do I think that it should be for the reasons I mentioned. Whether it is morally acceptable for Amazon to sell this book is a question they have to answer for themselves. I can certainly understand why they don't want to implement censorship in their store, but a single retailer not selling something is quite different from something being forbidden by law, no matter how large and important Amazon is.

Mad Tony
11-11-10, 17:20
I believe that concepts such as free speech are universal. No crime is committed here. It's a book that espouses ideas that I personally don't advocate--and most people don't--but nothing about it is criminal. It's just a book. Anyone who reads it hasn't committed a crime by doing so either.Pedophillia is illegal. This is exactly the same as a book giving advice to terrorists, although I assume you would also not be in favor of banning those books either since it would be against freedom of speech?

interstellardave
11-11-10, 17:22
Pedophillia is illegal. This is exactly the same as a book giving advice to terrorists, although I assume you would also not be in favor of banning those books either since it would be against freedom of speech?

This is the second time you said pedophilia is illegal. It is not. Child sexual abuse is illegal. Pedophilia is the desire; the disorder; whatever. It is not an act... it is not a crime.

Squibbly
11-11-10, 17:24
True, but Amazon clearly decided to sell it originally and they defended their stance. What is going on now is a mob trying to force them not to sell it despite their decision--based on their principled beliefs. These protestors would not want anyone else to sell it either, trust me. They would want it banned outright, like Mad Tony does.

Amazon is a publicly traded company. That means whatever they do, they do because a mob (aka their shareholders) forces them to. Amazon doesn't have honour or principles at all because Amazon isn't a person. It's a group of people looking to make a lot of money. That's it. It's simple economics and math. If a publicly held company tells you that it has principled beliefs, they are lying to you to sell their brand and therefore their products.

Cochrane, I agree with you. I'm obviously against the idea of this book, but I'd be uneasy if the government started censoring things. Amazon, though, I'm not overly concerned.

interstellardave
11-11-10, 17:29
Amazon is a publicly traded company. That means whatever they do, they do because a mob (aka their shareholders) forces them to. Amazon doesn't have honour or principles at all because Amazon isn't a person. It's a group of people looking to make a lot of money. That's it. It's simple economics and math. If a publicly held company tells you that it has principled beliefs, they are lying to you to sell their brand and therefore their products.

Chocrane, I mostly agree with you. I'm obviously against the idea of this book, but I'd be uneasy if the government started censoring things. Amazon, though, I'm not overly concerned.

I find common ground with you... :) I said "principled" because that's what they indicated in their statement. Whatever decision was made it was not made out of some kind of knee-jerk reaction, though, nor did they bow to public pressure, at least not initially. They may have now, though.

Alpharaider47
11-11-10, 17:39
True, but Amazon clearly decided to sell it originally and they defended their stance. What is going on now is a mob trying to force them not to sell it despite their decision--based on their principled beliefs. These protestors would not want anyone else to sell it either, trust me. They would want it banned outright, like Mad Tony does.


You might not be able to get it at Amazon, but you'll certainly be able to get it elsewhere if this guy had it sold somewhere else. I can certainly understand why Amazon would no longer want to sell a book like this, and that's their choice.

And like Cochrane said, if there was some form of legal action to ban a book like this, it could have unintended consequences. Now I'm gonna put uncharacteristic faith in the US legal system at least and say that our government would probably not ban it :p

And just to make it clear, I don't support a book like this, but I don't think the government needs to stick it's fingers in the pie and ban it.

Squibbly
11-11-10, 17:41
^ Yeah. See, like I've already stated, I'm very much against this book, and it would be nice if things like this were not allowed, but I don't want to open up the can of worms that would come with that.
What is allowed? What is banned? What are the consequences? It would just be too much.

Alpharaider47
11-11-10, 17:45
^ Yeah. See, like I've already stated, I'm very much against this book, and it would be nice if things like this were not allowed, but I don't want to open up the can of worms that would come with that.
What is allowed? What is banned? What are the consequences? It would just be too much.

And then everything would be open to government interpretation too.

Cynic
11-11-10, 17:52
Pedophillia is illegal. This is exactly the same as a book giving advice to terrorists, although I assume you would also not be in favor of banning those books either since it would be against freedom of speech?

Actually, you can buy books from Amazon about how to make your own explosives (and also ones about home-made psychodelic drugs).

Oh, and my favourite: Mantrapping by Ragnar Benson (I actually don't own it)

Mod edit: removed a referral link to the book (referrals keep track of where the link came from for advertising purposes)

MangelinaJolie
11-11-10, 18:06
^ I already linked one before but it was ignored or overlooked or nobody cared to comment. :p

Alpharaider47
11-11-10, 18:10
Actually, you can buy books from Amazon about how to make your own explosives (and also ones about home-made psychodelic drugs).

Oh, and my favourite: Mantrapping by Ragnar Benson (I actually don't own it)

Mod edit: removed a referral link to the book (referrals keep track of where the link came from for advertising purposes)

It's amazing what you can find these days :vlol:

FloTheMachine
11-11-10, 18:51
-_- Do I have to say anymore.

lara c. fan
11-11-10, 18:54
Has anyone read this book? You do get a few joke books that pop up...

FloTheMachine
11-11-10, 18:56
Even if they did I don't imagine they would say tbh :)

lara c. fan
11-11-10, 18:57
Even if they did I don't imagine they would say tbh :)

And as such, we won't know if it's a joke book or not until someone says.

Rai
11-11-10, 18:57
-------------------
anyways, who is the publisher? i wonder what other books theyve published.

It's self-published, so no actual publisher was involved.

Words cannot describe what I think. One can only hope no-one buys it - and if they do, they're tracked down somehow.

Sir Croft
11-11-10, 18:57
Shall them sell organs as well? Or drugs? Or prostitutes?

interstellardave
11-11-10, 19:05
Words cannot describe what I think. One can only hope no-one buys it - and if they do, they're tracked down somehow.

That's the kind of world I want to live in! :rolleyes:

Minty Mouth
11-11-10, 19:16
Said book was written a LONG time ago, and has since been removed from Amazon, I'm pretty sure.

The brilliant irony is, if noone had mentioned it, noone would have known about it.

Alpharaider47
11-11-10, 20:31
Said book was written a LONG time ago, and has since been removed from Amazon, I'm pretty sure.

The brilliant irony is, if noone had mentioned it, noone would have known about it.

Isn't that how it always goes though?

Minty Mouth
11-11-10, 20:42
Isn't that how it always goes though?

How what always goes?

JACOBryanBURNS
11-11-10, 21:10
I beg your pardon? This must have been something that made it to the actual online marketplace on Amazon by mistake. I can't see anybody in a big company's marketing actually springing for this. This looks very poor for Amazon.

just*raidin*tomb
11-11-10, 21:10
-_-

Ward Dragon
12-11-10, 04:40
^ I already linked one before but it was ignored or overlooked or nobody cared to comment. :p

I removed the link. A lot of links to specific products on Amazon (and other sites) contain information to track where the link came from for advertising purposes. Therefore I removed that referral link (and a few others in the thread that got posted after yours).

I believe that concepts such as free speech are universal. No crime is committed here. It's a book that espouses ideas that I personally don't advocate--and most people don't--but nothing about it is criminal. It's just a book. Anyone who reads it hasn't committed a crime by doing so either.

I don't know how this book fits into the law, but I've seen news stories in the past about people being arrested for writing or reading about fictional child abuse which was very explicit (I think one case was a woman writing short stories that she sold online, and another was a guy who imported a lot of freaky manga or something similar). With that in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if this pedophile guidebook is already illegal according to current laws.

Dave:
It's simple economics: If retailer x does go off the deep end and start banning media left and right, they will open up niches for new competitors in the market. Companies will always provide what people demand if they can make a profit. As long as it's a company doing the censoring you have nothing to worry about because due to economics and the capitalist system, there will almost always be somewhere you can buy anything. Except if it's banned by government.


No one is stopping the pedoauthor from writing, they're just stopping him from selling it at Amazon. He can still sell an e-Book on his own.

I completely agree with this. I'm nervous about the government banning things. However, if it's a private retailer doing the banning, then as you say if they go overboard another retailer will always step up and offer whatever there is a demand for.

And I don't think Amazon should offer this book for sale. From the author's description it does sound like he intended it to be a manual about how to molest children without getting caught, so that really hurts Amazon's image to sell such a thing. I'm still not sure if the book actually breaks any laws (that's for the prosecutor to figure out) but either way, Amazon can and should choose not to be associated with the book (and it appears they have done so since the news just mentioned the book and said it's no longer being sold on Amazon).

Anyway, I don't think banning a book would actually do anything to stop criminals from getting it (which is why I don't want the government to ban things). However, if the private retailer bans the book then that means I don't have to see the book, which is good enough for me because I don't want to think about that kind of crap or be reminded of it just from walking down a book store aisle or browsing for textbooks or whatever XD If they hypothetically banned something I did care about, like a videogame, then chances are I'd already be aware of said game and would look for it elsewhere so I don't really think there's a danger of the retailer controlling what I read by banning something. Hell, they already do that anyway to an extent by not stocking what doesn't sell well.

patriots88888
12-11-10, 05:06
And I don't think Amazon should offer this book for sale. From the author's description it does sound like he intended it to be a manual about how to molest children without getting caught, so that really hurts Amazon's image to sell such a thing. I'm still not sure if the book actually breaks any laws (that's for the prosecutor to figure out) but either way, Amazon can and should choose not to be associated with the book (and it appears they have done so since the news just mentioned the book and said it's no longer being sold on Amazon).

What I'd like to know is, why anyone would even publish this rubbish to begin with? I've always been under the understanding that it's extremely difficult to get a book published. If it was intended to be as you say, a manual about how to molest children, then I can't see what 'value' or interest it would provide to anyone who isn't either at least curious or actually intending on committing such acts and because of that, I am happy to see Amazon had enough common sense to discontinue it.

I believe that concepts such as free speech are universal. No crime is committed here. It's a book that espouses ideas that I personally don't advocate--and most people don't--but nothing about it is criminal. It's just a book. Anyone who reads it hasn't committed a crime by doing so either.

As far as I'm concerned, this type of material goes well beyond the principles of freedom of speech. Sometimes common sense should dictate and I believe it has. Thank goodness!

Ward Dragon
12-11-10, 05:15
What I'd like to know is, why anyone would even publish this rubbish to begin with? I've always been under the understanding that it's extremely difficult to get a book published. If it was intended to be as you say, a manual about how to molest children, then I can't see what 'value' or interest it would provide to anyone who isn't either at least curious or actually intending on committing such acts and because of that, I am happy to see Amazon had enough common sense to discontinue it.


I didn't read the book so I can't say what it actually contains. I was just going off of the quotes the news articles had from the author in which he explained why he wrote the book. It basically sounded like he was telling people that child abuse doesn't count as abuse if there's no penetration, and that he wanted to help pedophiles act on their desires without getting prison sentences.

In any case, this was apparently an e-book, not an actual paper book. I would imagine it's a lot easier to sell and distribute an e-book. I would guess he got it put up for sale on Amazon's e-book list without them really knowing the content, then when people started complaining Amazon defended it on principle, and then either they caved to the complaints or else they actually read it themselves and decided they didn't want it on their site.

patriots88888
12-11-10, 05:56
I've seen the posts saying that banning certain reading material can lead to a bad precedent being set, but the very same could be said for allowing such material. I suppose this is a good example of something that one has to weigh out and assess in their own mind as to what is more important here. While I agree that thoughts themselves may not be illegal, allowing such material to be freely published certainly can result in very unfavorable consequences. Obviously, this leads to the next question(s) of what then should be considered acceptable and thus allowed vs. what does go too far in regards to the allowance of those freedoms... but I would say that if this material was published for the sole purpose which has been alluded to, then as I have said, common sense IMO should prevail. Freedom of speech does have it's limitations. And if you don't believe that, I'll gladly point out some examples for you. Whether or not you agree with those limitations and restrictions, well that of course is up to you to decide.

In any case, this was apparently an e-book, not an actual paper book. I would imagine it's a lot easier to sell and distribute an e-book. I would guess he got it put up for sale on Amazon's e-book list without them really knowing the content, then when people started complaining Amazon defended it on principle, and then either they caved to the complaints or else they actually read it themselves and decided they didn't want it on their site.

Well that explains a lot. Wanting to make money off of a controversial (not to mention disgusting) topic. What an interesting new concept. :rolleyes:

sandygrimm
12-11-10, 06:41
I thought such things could only be found on Ebay,along with ear wax models of Jay Lenno. :p
Some people just like to push the boundries of " freedom of expression" just to see what they can stur up. I'm guessing he knew what was to follow, but why he thought he can get away with it as beeing allowed to circulate.

Minty Mouth
12-11-10, 08:06
Guys, not only was this an eBook, but it was self-published. That means nobody had to read it before it was listed on Amazon. They can't read or even check every book that goes through their system because thousands go through every day from places such as Lulu and Createspace.

Just to clear up any worries anyone had about one particularly shady publishing house existing out there :p

Ward Dragon
12-11-10, 08:39
Guys, not only was this an eBook, but it was self-published. That means nobody had to read it before it was listed on Amazon. They can't read or even check every book that goes through their system because thousands go through every day from places such as Lulu and Createspace.

Just to clear up any worries anyone had about one particularly shady publishing house existing out there :p

Ah, thank you :) I had assumed that was the case, but I wasn't certain because I'm not really familiar with how publishing e-books works.

LNSNHGTDS
12-11-10, 09:12
*several facepalms* :rolleyes: I'm going to reconsider going out with my friends tonight,especially if I see someone with the copy of the book waiting outside of my house :p .

Capt. Murphy
12-11-10, 15:25
This reminded of... (can't link to video due to language) Geoffrey Leonard.

Mad Tony
12-11-10, 16:00
This reminded of... (can't link to video due to language) Geoffrey Leonard.That guy is both funny and scary at the same time.

Little-Lara
12-11-10, 23:19
I am going to be sick...

How nice... Here we are trying to throw the book at preds and pedos and Amazon wants to create "a safe environment with rules" for them. I hope to God that this is actually a sting operation set up by amazon and the interpol to nail sick *******s around the world.

I'm pretty sure that if someone buys the book they're put on a watch list

Oh that'll be just perfect...We can tell Amazon to do that.