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View Full Version : Hooligans at it again - countrywide student protests


Mad Tony
24-11-10, 13:50
Same ****, different day by the looks of it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11566509

touchthesky
24-11-10, 13:52
Stupid idiots.

dizzydoil
24-11-10, 13:52
Stupid.

Lara's Nemesis
24-11-10, 14:23
I'm not seeing much.

Don't have any problems with them protesting, you always get a few who take it a bit far tho.

jackali
24-11-10, 14:30
They're protesting tomorrow as well.

Another Lara
24-11-10, 14:34
Like I've said before, students need to have something to protest about, they think it's something they need to do while they're in University...

This isn't even going to affect them as it's not happening for a few years yet, but still I suppose nothing else is going on that they can protest about!

And for a bunch of people that are supposed to be the clever ones of their generation, they really are stupid! Clearly they don't know how to read and research the things that the media doesn't tell them! :mad:

patriots88888
24-11-10, 14:36
Hope they had/have fun. Protests such as this usually are on the road to nowhere so I don't understand the waste of time.

Another Lara
24-11-10, 14:38
Hope they had/have fun. Protests such as this usually are on the road to nowhere so I don't understand the waste of time.

They're students, that's all they know how to do! I mean, they can't be expected to go to class ALL the time can they?! That would be productive! :rolleyes:

patriots88888
24-11-10, 14:41
Ah, so it's more of a social gathering than anything else?

sandygrimm
24-11-10, 14:42
We have them every year in one city or another.. Not much is really solved. :p

Spong
24-11-10, 14:42
Apart from the very real complaint that the students have, I wouldn't call this news, it's entertainment.

I was watching BBC News24 earlier and the coverage of the protest in Whitehall was hilarious. Seriously, how idiotic have the police become? Driving a van into the middle of a crowd that's baying for blood? They deserve all the vandalism they get. Shame the students didn't manage to roll it over, that would've been awesome :tmb:

Another Lara
24-11-10, 14:42
Ah, so it's more of a social gathering than anything else?

Pretty much yeah... and an excuse to get out of class and obviously the only way they can stick two fingers up at authority! Very sad!

lol, not that I can say much as I did it myself a few years ago... although that was over the war, not tuition fees! :o

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 14:48
they deserve all the vandalism they get. Shame the students didn't manage to roll it over, that would've been awesome :tmb:lulz i wanna see some destruction epic win!11!

interstellardave
24-11-10, 14:50
A tripling of tuition fees is protest-worthy, IMO.

Spong
24-11-10, 14:52
Student fees are going up, pensions are being scrapped, and people wonder why the students are protesting? I'd be mad as hell if I knew I was going to be paying for my education for decades, and then receiving no support at the end of my working life.

It's just a shame that the Conservatives have got their heads so far up their own posh arses that nothing will be done.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 14:52
A tripling of tuition fees is protest-worthy, IMO.

No doubt about it, I'd be in the front line of any fracas.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 14:56
A tripling of tuition fees is protest-worthy, IMO.

Unless this is something new, the last I heard their tuition cap was still a fraction of the average university tuition in the US, and there would still be many universities with low tuition (like the state and city universities here). With that in mind, I have trouble seeing what the big deal is :o

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 14:56
There's nothing wrong with protest and while I don't agree with what they're saying I have nothing against them.

However, the violent protests are a problem.

Spong
24-11-10, 15:01
Unless this is something new, the last I heard their tuition cap was still a fraction of the average university tuition in the US...

The UK government, in all their wisdom, is removing that cap completely.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 15:03
The UK government, in all their wisdom, is removing that cap completely.

Oh, I see. Last I heard they were just increasing it a bit.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 15:03
Unless this is something new, the last I heard their tuition cap was still a fraction of the average university tuition in the US, and there would still be many universities with low tuition (like the state and city universities here). With that in mind, I have trouble seeing what the big deal is :o

Our education system is so heavily flawed and overly expensive that it has become a sick joke. Don't use our system as a standard.

Education should be free. We should be trying to educate more people instead of finding ways to keep the less wealthy away from it. Eliminate all legacy admissions and make higher education available solely based on those who qualify. We should be doing all that we can to advise, assist and direct our young people to the job opportunities that best fit their capabilities.

interstellardave
24-11-10, 15:04
Unless this is something new, the last I heard their tuition cap was still a fraction of the average university tuition in the US, and there would still be many universities with low tuition (like the state and city universities here). With that in mind, I have trouble seeing what the big deal is :o

Still, when fees go up so much almost "overnight" it's still a shock to those that it affects. People said the same thing as you when gas prices abruptly rose over here (along with heating and other expenses). Those on this forum in Europe scoffed at our complaints because gas was already a lot higher there... but that doesn't change the fact that you are used to things as they are, and when they change a whole lot all at once it hurts. Sure you adjust after awhile but at first it's a real punch in the gut!

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 15:06
Our education system is so heavily flawed and overly expensive that it has become a sick joke. Don't use our system as a standard.

Education should be free. We should be trying to educate more people instead of finding ways to keep the less wealthy away from it. Eliminate all legacy admissions and make higher education available solely based on those who qualify. We should be doing all that we can to advise, assist and direct our young people to the job opportunities that best fit their capabilities.

I agree in theory, but from my personal experience with the public education system for middle school and high school, it's so incredibly broken that it makes the college system look perfect in comparison XD I foresee the same thing happening to colleges if they try to adopt a similar public school approach. As it is right now, many universities do give free or greatly reduced tuition to low-income students who qualify. For example my little brother's applying to Harvard because he'd get free tuition if he gets in.

Still, when fees go up so much almost "overnight" it's still a shock to those that it affects. People said the same thing as you when gas prices abruptly rose over here (along with heating and other expenses). Those on this forum in Europe scoffed at our complaints because gas was already a lot higher there... but that doesn't change the fact that you are used to things as they are, and when they change a whole lot all at once it hurts. Sure you adjust after awhile but at first it's a real punch in the gut!

I didn't realize the cap was getting removed completely. I had thought it was just going up a little bit.

jaywalker
24-11-10, 15:11
but again people are seeing only the negative and missing the other points which are `positive` to counter these negatives..

the student fees no longer have to be paid by the student upfront and before they begin their courses, that to me is a MAJOR positive step ensuring many more can actually attend uni..

not ALL unis are just going to say "oh, no cap, right triple our fees" yes the oxbridges of the country will do it, but the rest of the country IF they are clever would realise if they do it right they can get more people to fill the spots if they price themselves right.. you cannot remove elitism in the system, but a clever uni can gain if they pitch themselves right.. again no one sees this..

sighs.. as always the statement `never let the truth get in the way of a good story` holds true. all these protests are against the `possibility` not the `actuality` of something

Catapharact
24-11-10, 15:11
Oh right... "We know that the caps are being removed and the fees are being increases because the taxes are crippling U.K's economy... So lets just supplement the problem by vandalizing public property which the tax payers have to pay to fix."

Bravo... Bravo for being empty minded morons. It seems that people are forgetting about the fact that the average student doesn't even has to start paying back his tuition fees until they find a job that pays a certain wage range per annum.

Tear gas the lot I say. Tear gas em and jail em.

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 15:13
but again people are seeing a negative and missing the other points which are `positive` to counter these negatives..

the student fees no longer have to be paid by the student upfront and before they begin their courses, that to me is a MAJOR positive step ensuring many more can actually attend uni..

not ALL unis are just going to say "oh, no cap, right triple our fees" yes the oxbridges of the country will do it, but the rest of the country IF they are clever would realise if they do it right they can get more people to fill the spots if they price themselves right.. you cannot remove elitism in the system, but a clever uni can gain if they pitch themselves right.. again no one sees this..

sighs.. as always the statement `never let the truth get in the way of a good story` holds trueI agree.

I was watching the BBC News feed earlier and there was some women on there saying how the mere prospect of debt discourages poor children from going to uni - it doesn't. I know a couple of people in my college class who plan on going to uni despite coming from quite poor backgrounds. They know how reasonable the system is and thus are not put off from going.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 15:20
I paid for mine with the sweat of my brow and parental assistance. It was very expensive way back when, but today my nieces and nephews cannot afford it. I am helping a couple of of them with books and living expenses, but they will incur debt on top of this that is so preposterous and outrageous that it isn't even funny. It has become a money making racket, and that is what is in store for jolly old England.

patriots88888
24-11-10, 15:24
Perhaps I would be more sypathetic to the cause if it were directed in a better fashion. From what I have seen in that video posted, that doesn't appear to be the case. I'm having to agree with A.L. here that it seems like a convenient excuse to 'have some fun' and ditch.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 15:24
I paid for mine with the sweat of my brow and parental assistance. It was very expensive way back when, but today my nieces and nephews cannot afford it. I am helping a couple of of them with books and living expenses, but they will incur debt on top of this that is so preposterous and outrageous that it isn't even funny. It has become a money making racket, and that is what is in store for jolly old England.

Maybe I'm spoiled :p I got an academic scholarship which covered my tuition in full, and my parents helped pay the room and board so I've got no debt. My brother who is currently in college got most of the tuition covered through financial aid, and my little brother is applying to schools that would give him significant aid as well.

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 15:26
There's no other way. The government are making cuts across almost every department.

Spong
24-11-10, 15:28
There's no other way. The government are making cuts across almost every department.

And the cherry on the cake? Pretty much all the savings we've made from the cuts are being wasted on bailing out Ireland.

Money sucks.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 15:42
This world has many problems. Nations have many problems. But if you believed all that you read and hear you'd think it was that "there is no money" for everything. Bull****. It is all about prioritizing. The very few rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. The rich are not overtaxed (http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2010/11/22/warren-buffett-tax-me-more-please/), you can take that to the bank... ;)

Here in the USA we spend so much on our defense budget that it is hilarious. And mind you I was in it for 20 years, and on a level that can speak to the tremendous waste and unnecessary spending that we do. The defense industry here is so entrenched and empowered that any attempt to reduce it is met with the fiercest resistance from all sides and from all corners. And the truth is that we could do with one third to one half of what we spend today. And think about what would happen if we spent that money on higher education.

moodydog
24-11-10, 15:44
I was involved in one of the protests!
It was peaceful and loud. Everyone cooperated with the police, and I think everyone felt our presence! :)

Ours was very successful!

Spong
24-11-10, 15:48
I was involved in one of the protests!
It was peaceful and loud. Everyone cooperated with the police, and I think everyone felt our presence! :)

Ours was very successful!

That's good to hear. Truth be told, there's protests happening all over the UK today, but the national news isn't really interested in the quiet & peaceful ones. I had to wait for the local news to hear about the protest in Colchester (a town near me) where everything went off without a hitch, much like yours.

Forwen
24-11-10, 15:50
The UK government, in all their wisdom, is removing that cap completely.

No they're not, unless they changed their mind again from ~9000.

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 15:53
And the cherry on the cake? Pretty much all the savings we've made from the cuts are being wasted on bailing out Ireland.

Money sucks.Since when does 7bn (bailout for Ireland) come close to 81bn (budget cuts)?

Besides, it's a loan. We could end up making money out of it.

Spong
24-11-10, 15:53
No they're not, unless they changed their mind again from ~9000.

AFAIK know they have. Or at least they will be shortly.

EDIT

Since when does 7bn (bailout for Ireland) come close to 81bn (budget cuts)?

Fair enough, I was wrong on that figure.

Besides, it's a loan. We could end up making money out of it.

You really think that? We'll never see that money again.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 15:54
The rich are not overtaxed (http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2010/11/22/warren-buffett-tax-me-more-please/), you can take that to the bank... ;)

Warren Buffett is a mother****ing *******. He says taxes should be higher, but he's got the vast majority of his wealth sheltered so it can't be taxed. If the taxes do get raised like he wants, poor people like me are going to be the ones paying them, not him.

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 15:56
You really think that? We'll never see that money again.Of course we will. Do you really think the government would just lend Ireland 7bn if they didn't think they would get it back eventually?

@Eddie Haskell: I can't speak for the US but here there is no other option other than spending cuts. I was in favor of spending cuts anyway because the government here has gotten far too large.

Forwen
24-11-10, 16:00
AFAIK know they have. Or at least they will be shortly.

No fee cap was a proposition of Lord Browne's review, not the government's. The coalition proposed their own cap of some nine grand, and last I heard they're not planning to change that.

Spong
24-11-10, 16:03
Of course we will. Do you really think the government would just lend Ireland 7bn if they didn't think they would get it back eventually?

They have no real choice do they? If Ireland went down the swanny, it'd impact on us too because of the intrinsic economic connections (and I'm going by other people's views here, not my own). I assume that the 7bn is less than what we'd potentially lose if Ireland did sink.

xcrushterx
24-11-10, 16:05
There were protests at my uni today lol. Had to walk through them all, awkward moment was awkward.

Chocola teapot
24-11-10, 16:08
I'd be there If I could be, Potentially no Uni for me otherwise.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 16:10
Warren Buffett is a mother****ing *******. He says taxes should be higher, but he's got the vast majority of his wealth sheltered so it can't be taxed. If the taxes do get raised like he wants, poor people like me are going to be the ones paying them, not him.

My observations of the lives of the various people around this world of ours has led me to this conclusion:

The greatest problem facing the majority of the people is exploitation. The rich exploit the masses in many ways, I have seen it time and again all over the world. Some ways they do it are explicit and obvious, others more subtle and insidious. The best way to reverse this is via education, but the wealthy have that taken care of via their gatekeepers and watchdogs.

Sir Croft
24-11-10, 16:16
They have the right to protest, so let them protest, I say. Even if it doesn't affect them, as Another Lara said, it's very selfish to think that you should just protest about things that affect you directly.

Spong
24-11-10, 16:20
They have the right to protest, so let them protest, I say. Even if it doesn't affect them, as Another Lara said, it's very selfish to think that you should just protest about things that affect you directly.

I hadn't thought about it like that. You're right, why shouldn't the mothers & fathers of students protest as well?

Another Lara
24-11-10, 16:21
I hadn't thought about it like that. You're right, why shouldn't the mothers & fathers of students protest as well?

And the brothers and sisters, and the aunties and uncles as well while we're at it! ;)

Spong
24-11-10, 16:22
And the brothers and sisters, and the aunties and uncles as well while we're at it! ;)

If they have children that are students, why not?

See how I turned that around? :D

jaywalker
24-11-10, 16:22
that explains why the scottish students are protesting.. since they get it all for free ;)

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 16:23
My observations of the lives of the various people around this world of ours has led me to this conclusion:

The greatest problem facing the majority of the people is exploitation. The rich exploit the masses in many ways, I have seen it time and again all over the world. Some ways they do it are explicit and obvious, others more subtle and insidious. The best way to reverse this is via education, but the wealthy have that taken care of via their gatekeepers and watchdogs.

I think it starts much earlier than college. The failing public school system ensures that many children never even have a chance. I think that needs to be fixed first before we even begin to worry about the way the college system is set up. As flawed as the college system is, it's much better than the public school system that children have to suffer through in order to even make it to college in the first place. I can't see how to make college free for everybody without basically turning it into public school all over again with the government in charge making the same decisions that drove the public education system into the ground.

Another Lara
24-11-10, 16:24
If they have children that are students, why not?

See how I turned that around? :D


lol, touche! ;)

But the reality of this type of situation is that most people will not take such drastic action as to get off their asses and protest/speak out about something unless it directly affects them... or they just want to cause havoc like the Anarchists who cause 90% of the trouble!

Spong
24-11-10, 16:29
that explains why the scottish students are protesting.. since they get it all for free ;)

Had no idea they were protesting. I can't deny that seems both stupid and pointless.

But the reality of this type of situation is that most people will not take such drastic action as to get off their asses and protest/speak out about something unless it directly affects them... or they just want to cause havoc like the Anarchists who cause 90% of the trouble!

Granted, most people take a self-centred attitude towards these types of things, if it doesn't noticeably affect them then they just don't care. God knows I'm like that most of the time :o

patriots88888
24-11-10, 16:41
Granted, most people take a self-centred attitude towards these types of things, if it doesn't noticeably affect them then they just don't care. God knows I'm like that most of the time :o

LOL! I believe it's called being realistic. No one can be expected to protest everything and anything under the sun, which is why people only protest those things which do directly affect them. Let's not get carried away here with more of that idealistic principles crap.

xcrushterx
24-11-10, 16:41
Had no idea they were protesting. I can't deny that seems both stupid and pointless.
Well it does affect us indirectly. If they punt up the fees down south then it'll probably happen here too.

That aside, we all still think it's a joke and want to support our fellow students (:

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 17:11
I think it starts much earlier than college. The failing public school system ensures that many children never even have a chance. I think that needs to be fixed first before we even begin to worry about the way the college system is set up. As flawed as the college system is, it's much better than the public school system that children have to suffer through in order to even make it to college in the first place. I can't see how to make college free for everybody without basically turning it into public school all over again with the government in charge making the same decisions that drove the public education system into the ground.

I was a Chicago Public School student. I found my education first class. And the proof is in the pudding, the vast majority of my classmates (and mind you we had over 30 kids in our class) went on to college. I went on to a top college as did many of the others.

No one can create an equal playing field better and faster than the government. No one.

interstellardave
24-11-10, 17:13
sighs.. as always the statement `never let the truth get in the way of a good story` holds true. all these protests are against the `possibility` not the `actuality` of something

You protest the "possible" so it doesn't become the "actual". Assuming you're going to get shafted is a good self-defense mechanism because, quite often, you do get shafted when you're the one ultimately paying the bill... especially when that bill is deferred to a later date.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 17:19
I was a Chicago Public School student. I found my education first class. And the proof is in the pudding, the vast majority of my classmates (and mind you we had over 30 kids in our class) went on to college. I went on to a top college as did many of the others.

No one can create an equal playing field better and faster than the government. No one.

And I did my student teaching last year in a poor NY school where kids were lucky to not get beaten up every day let alone actually learn something. High school students didn't even know what it meant to round a number to the tenths place, let alone learn any hard math or science, and their reading levels were barely up to an elementary school level. I seriously had to spend a goddamned week teaching eighth grade students how to use a ruler to measure things. The government destroys everything it touches. "No Child Left Behind" could more accurately be described as "Nobody Gets Ahead."

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 17:19
Well it does affect us indirectly. If they punt up the fees down south then it'll probably happen here too.But there are no fees to punt up in Scotland. :vlol:

xcrushterx
24-11-10, 17:29
But there are no fees to punt up in Scotland. :vlol:
There are, technically. We have to apply to some agency to have them paid for us, and if they put the fees up then it's not unlikely that the agency will be scrapped and we'll have to pay ourselves.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 17:46
And I did my student teaching last year in a poor NY school where kids were lucky to not get beaten up every day let alone actually learn something. High school students didn't even know what it meant to round a number to the tenths place, let alone learn any hard math or science, and their reading levels were barely up to an elementary school level. I seriously had to spend a goddamned week teaching eighth grade students how to use a ruler to measure things. The government destroys everything it touches. "No Child Left Behind" could more accurately be described as "Nobody Gets Ahead."

Yeah, you're right. Anarchy is the way to go. Then my "clan" and I can do whatever we want since we are a bit higher on the food chain than most people. We'll hire some of the locals to join our personal army for periphery protection, and provide them and their family with the basics of life. Since we would have no services we would have to provide them for ourselves, and since we would be competing for resources with other "clans" we would need to negotiate treaties for access to goods and services that we would need to survive (that could not provide for ourselves), wage war with our enemies who seek to take what is ours, and educate our children and other dependents as we see fit. With no "destroying" government to provide for any common welfare or to bring order to any chaos we would need to do it ourselves.

And where does this inevitably lead? The most powerful warlord swallows up all the others and becomes king. Then he lays down his law (aka government) and we go from there. :)

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 17:52
Yeah, you're right. Anarchy is the way to go. Then my "clan" and I can do whatever we want since we are a bit higher on the food chain than most people. We'll hire some of the locals to join our personal army for periphery protection, and provide them and their family with the basics of life. Since we would have no services we would have to provide them for ourselves, and since we would be competing for resources with other "clans" we would need to negotiate treaties for access to goods and services that we would need to survive (that could not provide for ourselves), wage war with our enemies who seek to take what is ours, and educate our children and other dependents as we see fit. With no "destroying" government to provide for any common welfare or to bring order to any chaos we would need to do it ourselves.

And where does this inevitably lead? The most powerful warlord swallows up all the others and becomes king. Then he lays down his law (aka government) and we go from there. :)

Or we could drop the sarcastic mockery and give poor families vouchers with the power to choose their own schools and provide their children with the same education that Obama's kids have, or any other member of Congress who denies poor children a quality education in the name of "fairness" while their own children are receiving the best that money can buy.

For the same money per student that the government is wasting, that child could go to a private school and receive a much better education. You complained earlier about wasteful spending in the military. The public school system is no different. The government is irresponsible with spending because it's not their own money and they know they can always get more by raising taxes or just printing it. Any private corporation that tried to handle money that way would be bankrupt or under investigation for fraud.

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 17:54
There are, technically. We have to apply to some agency to have them paid for us, and if they put the fees up then it's not unlikely that the agency will be scrapped and we'll have to pay ourselves.How much would you then be likely to pay?

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 17:56
Or we could drop the sarcastic mockery and give poor families vouchers with the power to choose their own schools and provide their children with the same education that Obama's kids have, or any other member of Congress who denies poor children a quality education in the name of "fairness" while their own children are receiving the best that money can buy.

If every kid decided to go to the few best schools...how is this possible? This idea takes us nowhere. If you give every parent the choice of schools, which ones would choose the worst? Which ones would choose the mediocre? None of course. So this system is doomed to fail since every kid has to go to school and inevitably some would be forced to attend "lesser" schools. Fair? Of course not. So the real answer is improving education all across the board.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 17:59
If every kid decided to go to the few best schools...how is this possible? This idea takes us nowhere. If you give every parent the choice of schools, which ones would choose the worst? Which ones would choose the mediocre? None of course. So this system is doomed to fail since every kid has to go to school and inevitably some would be forced to attend "lesser" schools. Fair? Of course not. So the real answer is improving education all across the board.

What's happening now is that poor families are literally forced to send their children to horrible schools. If we give those families the choice, then of course no one would choose the bad schools. Those schools would then go out of business while the good schools would expand. That's how the system should work.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 18:07
What's happening now is that poor families are literally forced to send their children to horrible schools. If we give those families the choice, then of course no one would choose the bad schools. Those schools would then go out of business while the good schools would expand. That's how the system should work.

Private means profit. Profit means cost cutting and maximum return on monetary investment. Wrong for education. Every penny should go directly to the education of the students.

I will not stand here and say that there is a perfect way to do this. But let's say that we were to abolish public schooling. Now only private schools are available. Unless we change the law, every kid needs to go to school. So now parents must find a school that fits their needs (cost, location, etc). First, I assume that some kind of standard is set for these schools, in order to guarantee a proper education. Who sets these standards?

xcrushterx
24-11-10, 18:09
How much would you then be likely to pay?I'd assume we'd have to pay in full, but I don't know any actual figures.

Before most of us knew how this could affect us, the majority of us were still against them rising. I think it's BS and I'm very glad that there have been protests up and down the country all day.

TRfan23
24-11-10, 18:13
Irrelevant to the given topic of the protest.

But there was a not so much a protest at my college, but a petition a bunch of students made up because the Government are scraping EMA. Students were crowding around the main reception debating over it...

I just loled, do they really think they're going to stop it? Eitherway the whole thing's going to happen whether anyone likes it or not.

I mean seriously the EMA system has been abused and a complete waste of money (I'd prefer it if it was used to fund students education or something more productive), many idiots in my class have come in to get their EMA signed and then walked out... Why should students be paid to go to college/sixth form (school).

There were a few students on my course who do get EMA supported it being scrapped. They viewed it as a pointless abused system.
But a few others who thought that EMA was good to attract people to get education :/ Not from what I've seen.


As for the Tuition Fee Protests, well providing it's peaceful then I don't see a problem. As for the one's who are violent, they most likely don't care and just want to have 'fun' so they create drama. Or they let their emotions get so high, they get all irrational and major issues arise.
Just extradite them to NK, let them have their violent fun there.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 18:20
Private means profit. Profit means cost cutting and maximum return on monetary investment. Wrong for education. Every penny should go directly to the education of the students.

I disagree. I think motive to make a profit is the only real incentive to improve the quality of the education that's being provided. As it is right now, all of the government attempts to improve education have only made things worse. All of the complaints about "teaching to the test" are totally true. If it's not on the government-required assessment, the students don't learn it, and if it is on the assessment then the students are expected to memorize the answers without understanding why they are the answers. As long as the students pass the tests, the school doesn't lose government funding and that's all they care about. If instead the school's funding was determined by whether parents were pleased with the quality of the education (as it is with private schools) then the school will be forced to provide a better education in order to entice more parents to use that school.

I will not stand here and say that there is a perfect way to do this. But let's say that we were to abolish public schooling. Now only private schools are available. Unless we change the law, every kid needs to go to school. So now parents must find a school that fits their needs (cost, location, etc). First, I assume that some kind of standard is set for these schools, in order to guarantee a proper education. Who sets these standards?

Why must a universal standard be set? If parents are happy with the education provided by a school, then that school will do well. If not, then it will go out of business. Schools should be required to provide statistics to parents about things such as average student SAT/ACT scores, acceptance to colleges, which colleges most students go to, etc. and then parents can decide for themselves if the school is successful enough to entrust their child to it.

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 18:26
Standards need to be established. Without a baseline, education will be all over the place. Some kids will get all of the needed "educating", whilst others will get less.

And why have any government if it isn't going to do anything? With your "logic", why not just have a series of giant corporations run things? They would have a profit motive to do things right. Ever watch Robocop? :p

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 18:33
Standards need to be established. Without a baseline, education will be all over the place. Some kids will get all of the needed "educating", whilst others will get less.

That last sentence is exactly what's happening right now with the public education system. Government standards don't ensure that education gets improved. Quite the opposite, in fact, because that tells the schools that all they have to do is meet the standards and there's no need to do more than that. I literally saw one teacher "teaching" by showing the students the New York State standards for his class on a Powerpoint, having them read it out loud and copy it in their notebooks, and that was the entire lesson on the topic. That's it. Just memorizing a crude summary of the material and then spitting it back when the standardized tests came around. That **** would never fly if parents had the ability to send their kid somewhere better and the school knew it could lose students (and funding) if parents weren't happy.

And why have any government if it isn't going to do anything? With your "logic", why not just have a series of giant corporations run things? They would have a profit motive to do things right. Ever watch Robocop? :p

The government is necessary for some things, mainly safety issues (police, fire department) where it would be counterproductive to have competition, or for issues like roads where it makes no sense to have competition due to extremely limited resources (such as free space between buildings).

Eddie Haskell
24-11-10, 18:40
The government is necessary for some things, mainly safety issues (police, fire department) where it would be counterproductive to have competition, or for issues like roads where it makes no sense to have competition due to extremely limited resources (such as free space between buildings).

I disagree. When my house is on fire I want competing fire fighting corporations racing to the scene. The fastest one to get there gets my check. And competing police departments would be awesome! Which one will catch the murderer first! That one get's my vote for my neighborhood protection! Screw those guys in Niles, they can have their cheaper, multi-national corporation crew, I like the big name, more expensive, nicer uniform guys better. They close up the gates on my "community" with gusto. :p

Sorry for taking this thread out of its original intent. I apologize and will refrain from further commentary. Thanks.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 18:44
I disagree. When my house is on fire I want competing fire fighting corporations racing to the scene. The fastest one to get there gets my check. And competing police departments would be awesome! Which one will catch the murderer first! That one get's my vote for my neighborhood protection! Screw those guys in Niles, they can have their cheaper, multi-national corporation crew, I like the big name, more expensive, nicer uniform guys better. They close up the gates on my "community" with gusto. :p

That's a serious safety concern though. Firetrucks can kill people if they hit a car while speeding to the scene of the fire. Therefore it's an unnecessary risk to have more firetrucks going to the same fire than are needed to put that fire out.

Sorry for taking this thread out of its original intent. I apologize and will refrain from further commentary. Thanks.

I found the discussion to be very interesting and I considered it to be on topic since it was discussing how best to handle costs of an education system, but you're probably right. I hope we didn't take the thread too far off topic :o

Lemmie
24-11-10, 18:55
I saw some student protests today when I went to have lunch. Winter graduations were going on at the same time. Somewhat awkward. :p

I think one of the biggest issues about the raising of fees is further stratifying higher education. If prestigious institutions are allowed to charge much more than others, very capable students might end up doing their degree somewhere where neither the teaching nor the resources are very good, because of financial constraints.

larson n natla
24-11-10, 19:01
I agree.

I was watching the BBC News feed earlier and there was some women on there saying how the mere prospect of debt discourages poor children from going to uni - it doesn't. I know a couple of people in my college class who plan on going to uni despite coming from quite poor backgrounds. They know how reasonable the system is and thus are not put off from going.

While I don't agree with the way the students are going about getting their point across I do agree that the price increase is a big problem.

I myself already thought that the cost of university was tremendously high. With this new price many of my friends have already discovered that university is no longer an option as it is too expensive. Is it the right of a politician to deny a hard working aspirational child the right to participate in higher education? I think not. Personally I am not discouraged from university because for me it was never an option always a must. However the debt I will then carry after will be a heavy burden.

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 19:10
Is it the right of a politician to deny a hard working aspirational child the right to participate in higher education? I think not.Except that's not what's happening. What's happening is because of the exceptionally high levels of borrowing the previous government took part in we now have to severely cut back on public spending. The government reduced funding for universities (as they have had to do with a lot of other things) and raised the tuition fee cap so that universities could try and recoup some of those losses.

Besides, tuition fees going up isn't denying anyone the chance to participate in higher education.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 19:19
The government reduced funding for universities (as they have had to do with a lot of other things) and raised the tuition fee cap so that universities could try and recoup some of those losses.

Is there such a thing in the UK as financial aid for college or flat out scholarships that don't need to be paid back? I've seen people mentioning loans so far but I haven't seen financial aid really talked about yet. Basically what I'm wondering is whether the higher tuition cap will affect all students, or if low-income students would receive a reduced tuition anyway due to their financial situations.

TRfan23
24-11-10, 19:22
Except that's not what's happening. What's happening is because of the exceptionally high levels of borrowing the previous government took part in we now have to severely cut back on public spending. The government reduced funding for universities (as they have had to do with a lot of other things) and raised the tuition fee cap so that universities could try and recoup some of those losses.

Besides, tuition fees going up isn't denying anyone the chance to participate in higher education.

Just so I can understand the issue more:

Am I right in saying that students can take out a loan, and gradually pay off the loan over time providing they have the money?

So technically it just means the loan's going to be bigger, as more money is needed to pay it back. But in 25 years if not all of the loan is paid off, then it gets scrapped?

larson n natla
24-11-10, 19:23
Except that's not what's happening. What's happening is because of the exceptionally high levels of borrowing the previous government took part in we now have to severely cut back on public spending. The government reduced funding for universities (as they have had to do with a lot of other things) and raised the tuition fee cap so that universities could try and recoup some of those losses.

Besides, tuition fees going up isn't denying anyone the chance to participate in higher education.

Do you not agree that this will prevent the less wealthy members of our society from participating?

I don't see your logic, sure its because the last government royally screwed up but still the people that do not have the money to pay for higher education will now be restricted to lesser quality of life.

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 19:23
Is there such a thing in the UK as financial aid for college or flat out scholarships that don't need to be paid back? I've seen people mentioning loans so far but I haven't seen financial aid really talked about yet. Basically what I'm wondering is whether the higher tuition cap will affect all students, or if low-income students would receive a reduced tuition anyway due to their financial situations.Not sure. There are grants you can get and these depend on how much your parents earn.

I think there are scholarships too.

Do you not agree that this will prevent the less wealthy members of our society from participating?Sure it will prevent some people from going to uni but it's not like they can't.

I don't see your logic, sure its because the last government royally screwed up but still the people that do not have the money to pay for higher education will now be restricted to lesser quality of life.Talking of not having the money, the government doesn't have the money to keep funding higher education like it used to. As I said, nobody will be restricted because there are things called student loans.

lara c. fan
24-11-10, 19:39
Like I've said before, students need to have something to protest about, they think it's something they need to do while they're in University...

This isn't even going to affect them as it's not happening for a few years yet, but still I suppose nothing else is going on that they can protest about!

And for a bunch of people that are supposed to be the clever ones of their generation, they really are stupid! Clearly they don't know how to read and research the things that the media doesn't tell them! :mad:
It may not effect them, but why shouldn't they protest? To say that they're being idiots for protesting is idiotic in itself. They most probably plan to protest for, you know, the future generation.
Student fees are going up, pensions are being scrapped, and people wonder why the students are protesting? I'd be mad as hell if I knew I was going to be paying for my education for decades, and then receiving no support at the end of my working life.

Completely agree with this. :tmb:

but again people are seeing only the negative and missing the other points which are `positive` to counter these negatives..

the student fees no longer have to be paid by the student upfront and before they begin their courses, that to me is a MAJOR positive step ensuring many more can actually attend uni..

not ALL unis are just going to say "oh, no cap, right triple our fees" yes the oxbridges of the country will do it, but the rest of the country IF they are clever would realise if they do it right they can get more people to fill the spots if they price themselves right.. you cannot remove elitism in the system, but a clever uni can gain if they pitch themselves right.. again no one sees this..

Student loans may be a step forward, but people will still pay more due to this raise. You earn over 21,000 (I think) a year, and you can say goodbye to 9% or something of your income for god knows how long until you pay back that student loan.

They have the right to protest, so let them protest, I say. Even if it doesn't affect them, as Another Lara said, it's very selfish to think that you should just protest about things that affect you directly.
You got that right.
As I said, nobody will be restricted because there are things called student loans.

You still have to pay those back, so I would call that a restriction.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 19:43
Student loans may be a step forward, but people will still pay more due to this raise. You earn over 21,000 (I think) a year, and you can say goodbye to 9% or something of your income for god knows how long until you pay back that student loan.

That salary sounds like a lot of money to me, so can't someone making that much afford to pay back 9% towards the loan? :o

patriots88888
24-11-10, 19:47
I guess I just don't understand the mindset with this generation. You want higher education to be free? Where is my refund then? It wasn't exactly easy for me to pay back my tuition costs. I understand the sentiment that's being conveyed here and to a certain degree I can honestly say I sympathise, but times are tough across the board for everyone, so much of the bellyaching will only fall on deaf ears.

lara c. fan
24-11-10, 19:53
That salary sounds like a lot of money to me, so can't someone making that much afford to pay back 9% towards the loan? :o

21,000 a year works out as 1750 a month. Add food, water, electricity, possibly gas, rent/mortgage...

You'd be left with about a total of 1575 a month to pay for all that. Granted, I don't have much of an idea how high rent or mortgages are nowadays, but...

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 19:58
21,000 a year works out as 1750 a month. Add food, water, electricity, possibly gas, rent/mortgage...

You'd be left with about a total of 1575 a month to pay for all that. Granted, I don't have much of an idea how high rent or mortgages are nowadays, but...

Doesn't rent cover the costs of water, electricity and gas? :o I guess it really depends how much rent is where the person is living, but I think a single person without any kids should be able to live on that much until they get a raise and/or pay off the loan :o

lara c. fan
24-11-10, 20:01
Doesn't rent cover the costs of water, electricity and gas? :o I guess it really depends how much rent is where the person is living, but I think a single person without any kids should be able to live on that much until they get a raise and/or pay off the loan :o

I'm not sure on that account... I didn't think it did, though. Seeing as rent is a mostly fixed rate, if you were a landlord, and your tenant started using much more electricity, gas, and water, then you'd be losing money. So I doubt that, but I don't have any firm evidence.

It doe depend on the amount of rent, yes. However, you also have to think about the varying taxes and such... I'll try and do a mock-up of how much one person could be looking at in a month. I have myself intrigued now. :p

larson n natla
24-11-10, 20:01
Not sure. There are grants you can get and these depend on how much your parents earn.

I think there are scholarships too.

Sure it will prevent some people from going to uni but it's not like they can't.

Talking of not having the money, the government doesn't have the money to keep funding higher education like it used to. As I said, nobody will be restricted because there are things called student loans.

Scholarships are very rare and only the brightest students can ever hope to receive one.

You still have to repay a student loan you know, and it does gain interest so when a student graduates and does start earning they begin so far in the red that it will take years to fully repay the debt.

TRfan23
24-11-10, 20:02
I'm not sure on that account... I didn't think it did, though. Seeing as rent is a mostly fixed rate, if you were a landlord, and your tenant started using much more electricity, gas, and water, then you'd be losing money. So I doubt that, but I don't have any firm evidence.

It doe depend on the amount of rent, yes. However, you also have to think about the varying taxes and such... I'll try and do a mock-up of how much one person could be looking at in a month. I have myself intrigued now. :p

How is it you know all this and I don't? :confused:

Does this knowledge come natural to you, where did you learn it?

lara c. fan
24-11-10, 20:06
How is it you know all this and I don't? :confused:

Does this knowledge come natural to you, where did you learn it?

I have no idea, really. I've just always had an incredibly intense interest in how I'd sort out my future life money-wise and such. It's a subject I've given a lot of thought to.
And I tend to approximate values based on what my family gets through the post...

Also, hang on a sec. If university fees are meant to reach way past 18,000 in debt, earning the bare minimum for the repayment of student loans would have you paying for... Around 102 months, if you're sticking at 18,000. Holy ****.

Ward Dragon
24-11-10, 20:14
I'm not sure on that account... I didn't think it did, though. Seeing as rent is a mostly fixed rate, if you were a landlord, and your tenant started using much more electricity, gas, and water, then you'd be losing money. So I doubt that, but I don't have any firm evidence.

It doe depend on the amount of rent, yes. However, you also have to think about the varying taxes and such... I'll try and do a mock-up of how much one person could be looking at in a month. I have myself intrigued now. :p

I guess that depends on the place too. Around here rent is high (around $1000 a month) but it includes utilities as far as I know (I haven't looked into it in a whole lot of depth though because I can't afford to move out yet either way :o).

Also, hang on a sec. If university fees are meant to reach way past 18,000 in debt, earning the bare minimum for the repayment of student loans would have you paying for... Around 102 months, if you're sticking at 18,000. Holy ****.

That's 8.5 years. I would assume in that time the person would hopefully get a raise and be able to pay off more each month (thereby paying it off faster and incurring less interest) :o

lara c. fan
24-11-10, 20:19
I guess that depends on the place too. Around here rent is high (around $1000 a month) but it includes utilities as far as I know (I haven't looked into it in a whole lot of depth though because I can't afford to move out yet either way :o).



That's 8.5 years. I would assume in that time the person would hopefully get a raise and be able to pay off more each month (thereby paying it off faster and incurring less interest) :o

I don't think that's how it happens here, seeing as I've had my parents moaning at me that I'm getting their electricity bill too high... :p

It really depends, to be honest. That 21,000 a year job might well be the best you can do. :p

Mad Tony
24-11-10, 20:26
Scholarships are very rare and only the brightest students can ever hope to receive one.Yes, and? I was just asking Ward Dragon's question.

You still have to repay a student loan you know, and it does gain interest so when a student graduates and does start earning they begin so far in the red that it will take years to fully repay the debt.Interest on student loans is negligible.

trXD
24-11-10, 21:02
If you ask me, this was bound to happen.

What's happening is terrible, hundreds of thousands of students are now going to have to compromise their future and not pursue their goals and dreams.

I don't agree with the violant protests, but seriously, this isn't even common, peaceful protests are happening all over the country.

Solice
24-11-10, 22:30
Ah, so it's more of a social gathering than anything else?

A Socialist gathering:D

Joely-Moley
25-11-10, 15:03
Hooligans? This is set to be a peaceful protest, and I say good on them.
Sure there may be some idiots that ruin it again, but that is only a tiny percentage of the people that will be there. I wouldn't even call them protesters, they are simply people who go looking for trouble.

Mad Tony
25-11-10, 15:10
Hooligans? This is set to be a peaceful protest, and I say good on them.
Sure there may be some idiots that ruin it again, but that is only a tiny percentage of the people that will be there. I wouldn't even call them protesters, they are simply people who go looking for trouble.Yes, hooligans. Is it not true that the hooligans who were causing trouble two weeks ago were again causing trouble again yesterday?

Joely-Moley
25-11-10, 15:14
Didn't see there was more violence yesterday, my bad. But it really is such a small minority of people. I wouldn't even call them protesters tbh.

Goose
25-11-10, 18:21
What's happening is terrible, hundreds of thousands of students are now going to have to compromise their future and not pursue their goals and dreams.


They dont have to compromise anything, if they want to go to uni then get a student loan, and pay it back like everyone else does, might take a couple more years to pay it off, but me as a worker now, is already paying extra tax and tightening my belt, so i would expect any uni kid to do similar if they have any desire to get the economy back on track.

Im sure a degree can wait for most, if they dont like the idea of the loan, spend 3 or 4 years working and save up money to do what they want.

All i personally can see is a bunch of kids demanding more from our government, while adults are putting in more to save us from future hardship.

Primary, secondary and college is already free to go to, A levels and AS levels are being handed out for free, anything else on top of that is a plus, not a right to have. Theres a serious lack of discipline, common sense and feeling of working as part of a country in people now.

Another Lara
25-11-10, 18:44
They dont have to compromise anything, if they want to go to uni then get a student loan, and pay it back like everyone else does, might take a couple more years to pay it off, but me as a worker now, is already paying extra tax and tightening my belt, so i would expect any uni kid to do similar if they have any desire to get the economy back on track.

Im sure a degree can wait for most, if they dont like the idea of the loan, spend 3 or 4 years working and save up money to do what they want.

All i personally can see is a bunch of kids demanding more from our government, while adults are putting in more to save us from future hardship.

Primary, secondary and college is already free to go to, A levels and AS levels are being handed out for free, anything else on top of that is a plus, not a right to have. Theres a serious lack of discipline, common sense and feeling of working as part of a country in people now.



Brilliant post! Spot on! :tmb:

Beans-Bot
26-11-10, 02:39
rgxwTF-qeAo

What complete monsters! :eek:

With the violence just getting more severe every protest, I fear that someone will take a note from Guy Fawkes and try to blow something up. I hope the Parliament listens to the protests before that happens, though. Eventually these will turn into mini-war-zones and that's not good.

lara c. fan
26-11-10, 07:43
[QUOTE=Goose;5018938]
All i personally can see is a bunch of kids demanding more from our government, while adults are putting in more to save us from future hardship.
/QUOTE]

Demanding more? No, I think they're rather demanding the same that any adult that went to University got.

Forwen
26-11-10, 12:16
The new students will pay for their university through either increased fees or increased taxes. I find it curious that some people consider keeping the old fees 'fairer' - because that would mean higher taxes paid by everyone. Sooo it's fair when someone else pays for your education. I guess things are only unfair when they happen to you.

Mad Tony
26-11-10, 12:37
I hope the Parliament listens to the protests before that happens, though. Eventually these will turn into mini-war-zones and that's not good.Just because they're not giving in doesn't mean they're not listening.

Goose
26-11-10, 12:48
[QUOTE=Goose;5018938]
All i personally can see is a bunch of kids demanding more from our government, while adults are putting in more to save us from future hardship.
/QUOTE]

Demanding more? No, I think they're rather demanding the same that any adult that went to University got.

Of course they are demanding more, firstly we are in an entirely different economic climate, and secondly those who had the cheaper rates are now paying more tax in the work place, so neither current nor previous students are better off.

That's why students have no right to protest let alone destroy anything.

Entirely self motivated and totally ignoring the wider countries stability.

Beans-Bot
26-11-10, 17:40
http://www.demotix.com/news/518402/met-police-deny-horse-charge-caught-camera

You've got to be kidding me. The police should be ashamed of themselves. Sending horses through crowds, kettling people in near-zero temperatures for hours, planting police vans just so protesters can destroy them and have themselves look bad, tisk. :pi: