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Cochrane
28-11-10, 20:27
WASHINGTON — A cache of a quarter-million confidential American diplomatic cables, most of them from the past three years, provides an unprecedented look at backroom bargaining by embassies around the world, brutally candid views of foreign leaders and frank assessments of nuclear and terrorist threats.

Some of the cables, made available to The New York Times and several other news organizations, were written as recently as late February, revealing the Obama administration’s exchanges over crises and conflicts. The material was originally obtained by WikiLeaks, an organization devoted to revealing secret documents. WikiLeaks intends to make the archive public on its Web site in batches, beginning Sunday.

The anticipated disclosure of the cables is already sending shudders through the diplomatic establishment, and could conceivably strain relations with some countries, influencing international affairs in ways that are impossible to predict.
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29cables.html?_r=1&hp

The data was released to New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/), The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Der Spiegel (german) (http://www.spiegel.de/), Le Monde (french) (http://www.lemonde.fr/) and El País (spanish) (http://www.elpais.com/global/), and they all have big sections with analysis about this. Wikileaks itself (http://www.wikileaks.org/) is currently down, probably from too much people wanting to download all this. What’s your opinion?

-----

I’ve only read a little bit so far, but it was highly interesting. At least the stuff from Germany is not really embarrassing or dangerous, but fairly good analysis of our current government and its weaknesses, although with a focus on foreign politics. Some of the things, though, such as the arab countries that support Israel and hate Iran, but are not willing to announce that in public for fear of public backlash… I’m not convinced that it was necessarily a good idea to publish that. There does not seem to be any big scandal covered up that was uncovered by this, but lots of small to medium ones. While it is interesting to read about them, I am not convinced that this is really as important as the Iraq and Afghanistan war documents.

Catapharact
28-11-10, 20:50
Some of the things, though, such as the arab countries that support Israel and hate Iran, but are not willing to announce that in public for fear of public backlash… I’m not convinced that it was necessarily a good idea to publish that.

While I agree that Wikileaks need to put a lid on it, this is no new news. Heck I could have told you that Lol! There have been joint blackops operation conducted by many Arab nations and Israel along with under the desk trade deals and intelligence sharing and collaboration. And I am not surprised that Saudi Arabia wanted the U.S. to hit the Iranian Nuclear Reactor.

I will certainly be looking over the transcripts.

Love2Raid
28-11-10, 22:13
I support them when they release for example documents that bring violations of human rights to light, but in this case, the benefits don't seem to outweigh the potential negative consequences at all. To quote the article:

"could conceivably strain relations with some countries, influencing international affairs in ways that are impossible to predict."

Exactly. I think transparancy is highly important, but I am not sure how people can benefit from this. I still have to check this out though.

Catapharact
29-11-10, 00:19
I definitely agree with King Abdullah on this view:

Saudi King Abdullah called President Asif Ali Zardari the greatest obstacle to Pakistan's progress.

Too bad he isn't doing enough to change things within his own nation as well.

scoopy_loopy
29-11-10, 01:08
Seems a few people need to be more careful with their "secret" documents.

Uzi master
29-11-10, 02:33
If the U.S. government has this manny secrets then its not WikiLeaks fault, people should have access to information about what their government they vote for is doing.

I would respect their government if they addmitted what they did instead of trying to cover everything up.

jjbennett
29-11-10, 02:38
I personally like the way they only placed 200 on the site yet gave the whole portfolio to certain websites/companies which is reported to contain over 200,000 of the cables. I'm sure there's more fun to come.

Cochrane
29-11-10, 15:13
I just heard that one of the documents released so far ( 09BERLIN1433 ) reveals, in passing, that US nuclear bombs are stored in Belgium, something that has been kept a secret by Belgian governments since it started in the 1960s (Other european countries also host US nuclear bombs, but are not quite as shy about it). So it would be wrong to underestimate the impact these documents can have.

On the other hand, I do agree that it is not the nicest of moves to store US nuclear weaponry and not tell the own citizens about it.

Alpharaider47
29-11-10, 15:26
If the U.S. government has this manny secrets then its not WikiLeaks fault, people should have access to information about what their government they vote for is doing.

I would respect their government if they addmitted what they did instead of trying to cover everything up.

It's not just the US government though. I wonder how much Canada is hiding that you don't know about? :whi: Everybody has secrets these days. I just hope these guys don't release anything that would screw up major alliances.

Heckler
29-11-10, 15:56
If this crap starts some sort of war I'm moving to the sun with that Spanish woman.

Catapharact
29-11-10, 15:56
It's not just the US government though. I wonder how much Canada is hiding that you don't know about? :whi:

_ZI_aEalijE

tlr online
29-11-10, 16:15
This quote from the BBC made me laugh.

One Republican congressman called for Wikileaks to be designated a terrorist organisation.

I find some of the leaked cables very interesting indeed.

scion89
29-11-10, 16:37
This quote from the BBC made me laugh.



I find some of the leaked cables very interesting indeed.

Most Interesting.

Arab countries supporting Israel and wanting Iranian nuclear reactors bombed is the thing that has really suprised me.

robm_2007
29-11-10, 16:38
We have/had nuclear bombs in Belgium?

Catapharact
29-11-10, 16:44
Arab countries supporting Israel and wanting Iranian nuclear reactors bombed is the thing that has really suprised me.

I am surprised that it surprises you. The Arab nations have more to worry about with a Nuclear capable Iran (which I am sure will try to use that capability to exert its power in the region) as compared to Israel which has no such ambitions (and usually just launches attacks to defend itself.)

Saudi Arabia has repeatedly stopped Yemeni Shi'ite attackers (more like totally decimated them) who have gotten DIRECT fundings from the Iranian government. Then there are Iranian backed terror groups like Hezbullah that have attacked Arab nationals on Saudi soil.

Ward Dragon
29-11-10, 19:44
Most Interesting.

Arab countries supporting Israel and wanting Iranian nuclear reactors bombed is the thing that has really suprised me.

It makes sense. If Iran succeeds in wiping out Israel, they'll go after other Arab countries next XD (And by Iran I mean the leadership, not the general population) It's in everybody's interests not to let someone like Ahmedinejad have access to nuclear weapons.

Mona Sax
29-11-10, 20:43
I support them when they release for example documents that bring violations of human rights to light, but in this case, the benefits don't seem to outweigh the potential negative consequences at all. To quote the article:

Exactly. I think transparancy is highly important, but I am not sure how people can benefit from this. I still have to check this out though.
I think the benefit lies in knowledge and transparency, there doesn't need to be an ulterior motive. Also, it's not Wikileaks that should be held responsible for potential negative consequences, it's the governments who lied to you and plot against each other. Wikileaks is just the messenger.

Love2Raid
29-11-10, 22:00
Now that I have checked some of the documents out and heard what 'the news people' had to say about it, I don't think what they released so far can be considered as a serious threat. There is loads more in the pipeline though...

The comments about the world leaders made me lol, they confirmed what I already thought. :p

The most interesting thusfar is everthing concerning Iran, in my opinion. I agree that the country is a very unstable factor in the Middle East, a much bigger threat than Iraq/Saddam ever was.

The Great Chi
29-11-10, 23:37
I was hoping to find the 2001 report on 5000 tons of shaped charge explosives destined for the twin towers, New York. And also for building 7, you know, the one that was nowhere near the disaster and it blew up, sorry I will rephrase as the official story, fell down too ;)

Mad Tony
29-11-10, 23:57
I was hoping to find the 2001 report on 5000 tons of shaped charge explosives destined for the twin towers, New York. And also for building 7, you know, the one that was nowhere near the disaster and it blew up, sorry I will rephrase as the official story, fell down too ;)You're not going to find stuff that doesn't exist I'm afraid.

The Great Chi
30-11-10, 00:05
You're not going to find stuff that doesn't exist I'm afraid.Your right, building 7 fell down in sympathy for the twin towers :p

or maybe a localised earth quake.

Catapharact
30-11-10, 03:27
Well Canada's cables came out today and for the most part... We are clean Lol! If there is any backlash that's going to come out it, its going to be from the lame-o leftists. Actually, I am kinda disappointed that the CISIS director didn't say this out-right to the Canadian public:

Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) had become "increasingly distracted from its mission by legal challenges that could endanger foreign intelligence-sharing with Canadian agencies."

Judd ascribes an "Alice in Wonderland" worldview to Canadians and their courts, saying federal judges had tied CSIS "in knots," making it difficult to detect and prevent terror attacks in Canada and abroad.

I would have said all of that outright.

The one bit that shocked me was this:

CSIS agreed to "open a channel" to Iran's intelligence service, but was sceptical of their cooperation.

Hell to the no! How do we know that they aren't sending us mis-information?

scoopy_loopy
30-11-10, 04:08
Cat, could you can it with your "leftist" bull**** comments? You're insulting your own intelligence.

Catapharact
30-11-10, 04:12
Cat, could you can it with your "leftist" bull**** comments? You're insulting your own intelligence.

Sure... I could go with plenty of other alternatives; Socialists? Hippies? Liberals? Take your pick ;).

Solice
30-11-10, 04:13
It's not just the US government though. I wonder how much Canada is hiding that you don't know about? :whi: Everybody has secrets these days. I just hope these guys don't release anything that would screw up major alliances.

Canada is hiding this...

http://todaysfacilitymanager.com/facilityblog/wp-content/uploads/stanley-cup.jpg

MangelinaJolie
30-11-10, 04:17
Pretty childish that the Obama administration is lashing out against Wikileaks for this. Trying to shift the negative attention to someone else, it seems.

Catapharact
30-11-10, 04:20
Pretty childish that the Obama administration is lashing out against Wikileaks for this. Trying to shift the negative attention to someone else, it seems.

They have the right to lash out. Some of these documents can put lives at risk and jeopardize international relations and treaties. Wikileaks can be charged with counts of espionage and criminal negligence.... As it should be.

MangelinaJolie
30-11-10, 04:23
They have the right to lash out. Some of these documents can put lives at risk and jeopardize international relations and treaties. Wikileaks can be charged with counts of espionage and criminal negligence.... As it should be.

The focus right now should not be on that, but indeed on amending any potential risks. I'm not saying that Wikileaks isn't guilty (although I do believe that as citizens we have a right to know this information).

Alpharaider47
30-11-10, 04:52
Pretty childish that the Obama administration is lashing out against Wikileaks for this. Trying to shift the negative attention to someone else, it seems.

I don't think Wikileaks is innocent, but the Obama administration needs to stop blaming other people for problems. To me, it's becoming the "Not our fault" administration...

I think Cat's got some good points, but I think they need to focus on making sure nobody's going to lose their life due to these leaks.

scoopy_loopy
30-11-10, 04:56
Personally I actually think this is being blown out of proportion. Where's the forecasted ****storm from the previous two "massive" leaks?

Ward Dragon
30-11-10, 05:54
I was hoping to find the 2001 report on 5000 tons of shaped charge explosives destined for the twin towers, New York. And also for building 7, you know, the one that was nowhere near the disaster and it blew up, sorry I will rephrase as the official story, fell down too ;)

Building 7 is the red one just to the left of the North Tower. Look how close they are:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f214/WraithStar/Wtc_arial_march2001.jpg

Alpharaider47
30-11-10, 05:58
^^ I can see that building getting knocked down by the two towers falling... don't see why you'd have to think it'd take explosives in addition... :confused: Conspiracy theorists... I'll never understand you :p

ajrich17901
30-11-10, 06:56
^^ I can see that building getting knocked down by the two towers falling... don't see why you'd have to think it'd take explosives in addition... :confused: Conspiracy theorists... I'll never understand you :p

Same, I've read so many theories and I just can't bring myself to believe in it. People will make up a conspiracy for anything they possibly can.

Mad Tony
30-11-10, 07:36
Your right, building 7 fell down in sympathy for the twin towers :pThere's a scientific explanation for it, unlike the "truther" point of view which just says "lol the FBI sneaked bombs in!!1!".

(although I do believe that as citizens we have a right to know this information).Citizens do not have a right to know this kind of information. I think Cat's right, this could cause problems.

Building 7 is the red one just to the left of the North Tower. Look how close they are:Yeah, apparently the building is supposed withstand this

http://www.thepowermall.com/911inplanesite/images2005/01_wtc7.jpg

I think the biggest argument against this nonsense is that it doesn't even make sense. If you were the government and actually carried out 9/11 why would you demolish an entire empty office building and risk blowing your cover when said building isn't even a landmark? It's ludicrous.

Alpharaider47
30-11-10, 07:37
Same, I've read so many theories and I just can't bring myself to believe in it. People will make up a conspiracy for anything they possibly can.

I'll admit that some sound pretty reasonable, but for the most part just no :p

Mad Tony
30-11-10, 07:40
I'll admit that some sound pretty reasonable, but for the most part just no :pWell, compared to the stuff a lot of these people spew out it probably is pretty reasonable.

http://www.infowars.com/

Knock yourself out.

Apparently the current Korean crisis is a US ploy to raise the value of its currency, for example.

Forwen
30-11-10, 11:34
China 'would accept united Korea'

(UKPA) – 3 hours ago

Leaked US diplomatic cables show China's frustration with communist ally North Korea and speculate Beijing would accept a future Korean peninsula unified under South Korean rule, according to the documents released by whistle-blowing website WikiLeaks.

The memos posted online by media organisations indicate the importance American and South Korean diplomats place on China's attitude toward the future survival of the isolated and impoverished hard-line communist regime in Pyongyang.

The release of the documents follows new tensions in the region with North Korea unleashing a fiery artillery barrage on a South Korean island that killed four people a week ago.

The regime also warned that joint US-South Korean naval drills this week had pushed the peninsula to the "brink of war".

China "would be comfortable with a reunified Korea controlled by Seoul and anchored to the US in a 'benign alliance' as long as Korea was not hostile towards China," then-South Korean vice-foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, is quoted as telling US ambassador to South Korea Kathleen Stephens in February.

Chinese officials are also quoted as using mocking language in reference to North Korea, pointing to tensions between the two neighbours in contrast to official statements underscoring strong historical ties.

Then-Deputy Foreign Minister He Yafei is quoted as telling a US official in April 2009 that Pyongyang was acting like a "spoiled child" by staging a missile test in an attempt to achieve its demand of bilateral talks with Washington.

China is also preparing to handle any outbreaks of unrest along its border with North Korea that could follow a collapse of the regime, with officials in Beijing saying they could deal with up to 300,000 refugees but might have to seal the border to maintain order, the memos said, citing an unidentified representative of an international aid group.

The diplomatic cables warned, however, that China would not accept the presence of US troops north of the demilitarised zone that currently forms the border between the two Koreas.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that WikiLeaks acted illegally in posting the material. Officials around the world have said the disclosure jeopardizes national security, diplomats, intelligence assets and relationships between foreign governments.

Copyright © 2010 The Press Association. All rights reserved.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hNJvnjNGstkqmQlTw6akbf1T3LhA?docId=N03481212 91102755741A

Cool.

Johnnay
30-11-10, 11:56
Most Interesting.

Arab countries supporting Israel and wanting Iranian nuclear reactors bombed is the thing that has really suprised me.

And the Iranian President dismissed the claims that it happened

Anyways I'm suprised about two documents about Armenia. My country exported arms to Iran which was used against US Soldiers in Iraq which Armenia nearly got Sanctioned for and something else related to Georgia, but Azerbaijans leaks were rather suprising. Using Russia as a regional gas hub instead of their"brothers" in Turkey because the president didn't trust them, how Aliyev tries and tries to pressure the US to isolate Armenia(BTW is nothing new), Azeri leader refering to Russias medeyev as a new generation intellectual

But the most interesting thing about Azerbaijan is it's true relations with Iran, Aliyev dislikes Ahmadinejad and got the ****s when Mousavi lost the 2009 Iranian election. And that Iran doesn't want Azerbaijan to become a strong power in the region and wikipedia confirmed that iranians do indeed have money launding activities in Baku.

scoopy_loopy
30-11-10, 13:17
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hNJvnjNGstkqmQlTw6akbf1T3LhA?docId=N03481212 91102755741A

Cool.

That is fantastic, really. :p Poor NK ... alone in their madness.

Mad Tony
30-11-10, 15:45
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hNJvnjNGstkqmQlTw6akbf1T3LhA?docId=N03481212 91102755741A

Cool.Pretty much confirms my suspicions that China really doesn't support North Korea that much.

Catapharact
30-11-10, 16:33
Meh... That's actually a no-brainer. I actually chucked every time the news reports declared China as North Korea's "only ally." Ally? What joint venture treaties have they signed in recent years? What joint military programs have they agreed upon? None. Heck Pakistan is more a viable ally to China right now as compared to North Korea. Atleast China and Pakistan developed a fighter aircraft together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder

Mona Sax
30-11-10, 18:47
Well Canada's cables came out today and for the most part... We are clean Lol! If there is any backlash that's going to come out it, its going to be from the lame-o leftists.
I don't know, I read a lot of comments that Wikileaks should be considered a terrorist organization, that what they did was worse than a military attack or that leaking classified information should be punished more severely today... mostly from Republican politicians. True, this doesn't make the Obama administration look very good, but the common denominator of the arguments against Wikileaks is 'national security', which is primarily a conservative concern.

Catapharact
30-11-10, 19:08
I don't know, I read a lot of comments that Wikileaks should be considered a terrorist organization, that what they did was worse than a military attack or that leaking classified information should be punished more severely today... mostly from Republican politicians. True, this doesn't make the Obama administration look very good, but the common denominator of the arguments against Wikileaks is 'national security', which is primarily a conservative concern.

Oh I didn't mean that Wikileaks will be one who is going to take the heat from the left-wingers for releasing the statements made by the CISIS director Mona. I meant to say that the CISIS director HIMSELF will be the target of left wing scrutiny for making statements that most of us generally think and know for sure.

You just have to read up on the case involving the Al-Quaker scumbag named Omar Khadr to know just how screwed up the perception of Justice is for some Canadian Judges.

The Great Chi
02-12-10, 14:40
Well Canada's cables came out today and for the most part... We are clean Lol! .....Clean, what about the great moose smuggling operation into Yellowstone National park :D

We want your moose !

Catapharact
02-12-10, 14:46
We want your moose !

Well looks like we will be halting our little operations :p, and we will only start them up again as soon as the politicians across the border get their heads out of their as*** and stop accusing Canada of having Anti-American sentiments. Heck American citizens and American shows blast their own country each and every day.

Aphrodite22
02-12-10, 16:53
i love julian assange

Catapharact
02-12-10, 18:13
i love julian assange

You love a man who is currently facing rape and molestation charges (pressed by women who work at his own little organization,) and is on Sweden's Most Wanted list?

Wow... No further comment.

Goose
03-12-10, 16:39
i love julian assange

I think its important to look at your own flaws before trying to reveal other peoples. Alot of people do like to point at others when they have there own problems to hide, and from what's been heard about Assange, he's done that on a grand scale.

Johnnay
04-12-10, 08:20
and is on Sweden's Most Wanted list?

.

as well on Interpols Most Wanted List

anyways... heres some photos wikileaks published


http://news.am/pic/news/40305.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5123/5227977069_2907a831ba.jpg
i wonder why they published a photo featuring Ataturk.... there must be something behind this that the Turks or Assange are hiding.:confused:


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5044/5228571638_c4d1c8b699.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5289/5227977221_c82981e4ff.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5004/5227977167_0ea596193f.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5286/5227977121_33323ea485.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5050/5227977105_428d65400a.jpg

The Great Chi
04-12-10, 18:28
You love a man who is currently facing rape and molestation charges (pressed by women who work at his own little organization,) and is on Sweden's Most Wanted list?

Wow... No further comment.Usually when anyone embarass goverments they are found in a field with their wrists slashed, and deemed 'SUICIDE CASES', re: Doctor David Kelly.

The other option is to jail them...... 'John Hill' director of 7/7 ripple effect, at the moment is being extradited from Southern Ireland to the UK to face charges for sending '7/7 ripple effect' DVD to judges and jury in the UK'.

The Southern Ireland Judges did not even look at the DVD, as evidence, before deciding to extradite him.

This was a massive embarassment to the UK goverment as they want us to belive the official version, as the DVD explains an alternative view to the bombing in London, where the four British citizens of Indian decent were just acting the part in what they thought as a security training excercise , but ended up being in it for real in yet another false flag attack, similar to 9/11'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7_Ripple_Effect

We await the outcome of his trial in the UK, assuming he does not get help to commit 'suicide' beforehand or fall overboard in the Irish sea on his way to Britain :mis:

Mad Tony
04-12-10, 18:37
Chi, you do realize David Kelly did commit suicide don't you? Stop living in your fantasy world and face the facts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8083520/David-Kelly-case-closed.html

^
Thought I'd source it from somewhere else other than the BBC because you know, the BBC is just the mouthpiece of the UK government which is itself a puppet of the NWO.

The Great Chi
04-12-10, 18:39
Chi, you do realize David Kelly did commit suicide don't you? Stop living in your fantasy world and face the facts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8083520/David-Kelly-case-closed.htmlCase closed .. but suicide it is.

Goose
05-12-10, 12:13
The other option is to jail them...... 'John Hill' director of 7/7 ripple effect, at the moment is being extradited from Southern Ireland to the UK to face charges for sending '7/7 ripple effect' DVD to judges and jury in the UK'.

The Southern Ireland Judges did not even look at the DVD, as evidence, before deciding to extradite him.

John Hill believes he is the messiah to all man kind, he also believes that the script for star wars was given to george lucas through him using 'the force' from the movies...... need i say more? He is actually clinically insane due to these facts.


where the four British citizens of Indian decent were just acting the part in what they thought as a security training excercise.


You start this sentance in confusion, so there is no foundation to the rest of it is there?

They were Pakistanis, vastly different to Indians.

The only benefit of these conspiricy theory 'documentries' such as loose change, is debunking them, which provides us with more indepth knowledge from official sources, on how these plots were put together, and does nothing but harden the resolve of normal people to stop them ever happening again.

The Great Chi
05-12-10, 17:53
The only benefit of these conspiricy theory 'documentries' such as loose change, is debunking them, which provides us with more indepth knowledge from official sources, on how these plots were put together, and does nothing but harden the resolve of normal people to stop them ever happening again.Have you ever seen the DVD ? I bet not !

You have to know all the alternative points before drawing a conclusion that whatever the goverment feeds you is the truth.

7/7 stinks to high heaven as a false flag situation just like 9/11, even the photo of the pakisani/indians was photoshopped, to put them together at the station.

If you do not like knowing about alternative views, well thats up to you.
Just live in your small world and believe everything you are spoon fed is truth.

Mad Tony
05-12-10, 18:16
You know just because people don't believe outlandish conspiracy theories doesn't mean they're just mindless sheep who believe everything the government tells them. There are plenty of people out there who didn't like the Blair government (myself included) but still don't believe the conspiracies. Why? Because they're complete utter BS.

How was the photo of the 7/7 bomber photoshopped anyway?

The Great Chi
05-12-10, 18:18
I asssume BS means British Standards :D

We agree to disagree :hug: :p

Mad Tony
05-12-10, 18:42
Did you miss this part of my post?

How was the photo of the 7/7 bomber photoshopped anyway?

Aphrodite22
05-12-10, 21:08
You love a man who is currently facing rape and molestation charges (pressed by women who work at his own little organization,) and is on Sweden's Most Wanted list?

Wow... No further comment.


cmon, do u really believe in those women words? thats all bs



.

Mad Tony
05-12-10, 21:29
cmon, do u really believe in those women words? thats all bs



.Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?

Aphrodite22
05-12-10, 21:46
Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?

no i dont, i intuitively know it.




:p

Cochrane
06-12-10, 06:41
That seems like a dangerous position. There can be no denying that Assange is doing a great job for the world by releasing those documents (okay, maybe some denying, but I think the overall impact of Wikileaks is positive), but that does not make him a saint. Rape is a serious accusation that one should not dismiss just because the suspect can make a plausible story about how others might be out to get him.

Ikas90
06-12-10, 12:29
You know just because people don't believe outlandish conspiracy theories doesn't mean they're just mindless sheep who believe everything the government tells them. There are plenty of people out there who didn't like the Blair government (myself included) but still don't believe the conspiracies. Why? Because they're complete utter BS.

Have you seen Zeitgeist?

7_E4N5YIycI

I wouldn't say that they're "complete utter BS" after watching all 4 parts of these videos.

Cochrane
06-12-10, 12:36
Damn it, always that movie "Zeitgeist"… I watched the beginning once and it was already horrible. Is there a text summary of the points this thing makes somewhere? Because I’d rather be called ignorant by some people than spend the time to watch all this.

Ikas90
06-12-10, 12:41
I dunno. I always thought it would be easier to watch something than to read something. :p

I wouldn't look around though. You'll probably start being watched. :p

scoopy_loopy
06-12-10, 12:55
LLAAAWWWWLLLLL Previous Australian Prime Minister's gone into damage control after it leaked he advised the US to "use force" if "everything went wrong" concerning China and it's growing power. Also it was revealed that all this Pacific relations crap Australia's been driving hardcore lately was because he was concerned about China's growing influence in the area.

All this is quite hilarious to me, as he is known as the Chinaman loving PM. He speaks fluent Cantonese and all. :pi:

Mad Tony
06-12-10, 16:49
Have you seen Zeitgeist?

I wouldn't say that they're "complete utter BS" after watching all 4 parts of these videos.Yes. That's two hours of my life I'll never get back. All this stuff's been debunked and I reckon I could comfortably dismantle any wacky conspiracy theories concerning 9/11.

Anyway Saki, I never knew you believed in all that. What made you become a "truther"?

The Great Chi
06-12-10, 20:17
Its hilarious watching the world authorities trying to close down Wikileaks one way or another.

Maybe a plane will accidentially ram into the building that holds the Swedish wikileaks server (oh, sorry, that idea has been used before :p TRUTHERS TRUTHERS)

Anyway, I see wikileaks have 'fallback action' if the website is put out of action or a member suddeny commits 'suicide', and the more sensitive leaks will be published by a host of wikileaks 'persons unknown'.

I just wonder what the more sensitive leaks are about, 9/11 and 7/7 we hope, then the truth will out :D

Can we have them now please ;)

Goose
06-12-10, 20:18
Have you ever seen the DVD ? I bet not !

You have to know all the alternative points before drawing a conclusion that whatever the goverment feeds you is the truth.



I lived in London at the time, and watched every aspect of the entire thing unfold as it happened, and have taken an interest in everything since, and having localised TV networks, local knowledge is far wider on the subject then your DVD im afraid.


7/7 stinks to high heaven as a false flag situation just like 9/11, even the photo of the pakisani/indians was photoshopped, to put them together at the station.


Pakistani/Indian? Simply your either one of the other, different religions/culture/politics, so why do you consider them indian when they werent?

It doesnt at all look like a false flag operation, if you want to watch a good documentry, with a far more interesting result ( ie, the Police trying to sue the documentry makers for stiring racial hatred, yet all charges being dropped as it was nothing but truth), watch Dispatches: Undercover Mosque, about Mosques in London and Birmingham, and how radicalisation works in the UK.

Being in the military allows us to be briefed well on terrorism in the uk, and over-seas.

Mad Tony
06-12-10, 20:57
I just wonder what the more sensitive leaks are about, 9/11 and 7/7 we hope, then the truth will out :D

Can we have them now please ;)Yeah funny that. You'd think if 9/111 and 7/7 were inside jobs proper documents about them would've been leaked by now but alas, those documents are kept in Area 51 along with Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson and the set they used to fake the moon landings.

The Great Chi
06-12-10, 22:31
Your debunking is always most interesting - NOT :D

We agree to disagree :hug: :p

Mad Tony
06-12-10, 22:43
Your debunking is always most interesting - NOT :D

We agree to disagree :hug: :pYou never give me anything to debunk.

I even asked you about that supposed photoshopped picture twice and you never answered. Seems like this "we agree to disagree" thing of yours is just a way of getting out of providing evidence for your claims.

scoopy_loopy
07-12-10, 10:36
"THE elusive head of whistle-blower website WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, has been arrested by British police in relation to an international warrant issued by Sweden over alleged sex offences there.
Sky News reported that he was due to appear before magistrates later Tuesday local time.
- More to come"
Source. (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/julian-assange-arrested-by-british-police/story-e6frfku0-1225967231782#ixzz17QA4bvt5)

How ... unexpected! Also; just some other tidbits I found interesting:

""As far as I can see he (Mr Assange) hasn't broken any Australian law," Senator Brandis, a QC, told Sky News.

"Nor does it appear he has broken any American laws."

An open letter to Ms Gillard, prominent academics, lawyers, politicians and journalists called on the Government to protect Mr Assange from the possibility of an "extra-judicial" assassination.

"We therefore call upon you to condemn, on behalf of the Australian government, calls for physical harm to be inflicted upon Mr Assange," the letter said.

"And to state publicly that you will ensure Mr Assange receives the rights and protections to which he is entitled, irrespective of whether the unlawful threats against him come from individuals or states."

Mr Assange is in hiding, saying he'd received "hundreds of death threats", including some targeting his lawyers and children.
A Canadian pundit has called for him to be assassinated for leaking US diplomatic cables, while former Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee said those responsible for the leaks should face execution."
-Source. (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/hunt-for-wikileaks-julian-assange-may-end-with-surrender/story-e6frf7lf-1225967095676)

Ikas90
07-12-10, 11:40
Yes. That's two hours of my life I'll never get back. All this stuff's been debunked and I reckon I could comfortably dismantle any wacky conspiracy theories concerning 9/11.

Anyway Saki, I never knew you believed in all that. What made you become a "truther"?

I don't always like to give in to conspiracies, but I personally wouldn't trust the government who lied to me about the air to breathe after the incident. Many people developed respiratory illnesses and even died, to which afterwards the government went into full deniability that they ever said the air was safe to breathe.

The Great Chi
07-12-10, 11:48
"THE elusive head of whistle-blower website WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, has been arrested by British police in relation to an international warrant issued by Sweden over alleged sex offences there.
Sky News reported that he was due to appear before magistrates later Tuesday local time.- More to come"
Source. (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/julian-assange-arrested-by-british-police/story-e6frfku0-1225967231782#ixzz17QA4bvt5)

How ... unexpected! :vlol: .....(I expect that was a bit of sarcasm there :D )

I wonder how it took them so long to think of something to charge him on :p

Cochrane
07-12-10, 12:00
:vlol: .....(I expect that was a bit of sarcasm there :D )

I wonder how it took them so long to think of something to charge him on :p

This thing has been going on for some months now. It is only now that they managed to get all the paperwork in order.

scoopy_loopy
07-12-10, 14:07
This thing has been going on for some months now. It is only now that they managed to get all the paperwork in order.

I heard on the news today from an Australian QC that the evidence used to make a case again him (in terms of the sexual allegations) wouldn't be enough to charge him in Australia. So what exactly did he do? Does anyone know?

EDIT: Nevermind: "The women claim he sexually attacked them. Both said they had consensual sex with the notorious campaigner, but said he refused to wear a condom." ... I don't get how this is rape ... if he didn't want to wear a condom, why say yes to the sex?

Mad Tony
07-12-10, 15:24
I don't always like to give in to conspiracies, but I personally wouldn't trust the government who lied to me about the air to breathe after the incident. Many people developed respiratory illnesses and even died, to which afterwards the government went into full deniability that they ever said the air was safe to breathe.What? I've never heard anything about that.

Anyway, you can not trust the government while at the same time not buy into ludicrous conspiracies you know. I think it's very likely that the American government tried to downplay the fact that they were unprepared for a terrorist attack like that though.

lita212
07-12-10, 18:13
i think its a cover up. i dont believe the charges the man has been accussed of. its funny how he gets the info then all of a sudden this happens. imo i think its the goverment doing a cover up. they can do anything to anyone

Mad Tony
07-12-10, 18:41
Is there any proof of this cover-up? It's easy to cry foul play when there is a possible motive. Guess what? There's a possible motive for almost everything.

The Great Chi
07-12-10, 18:47
Lets state it a different way...

Is there any proof that it is not a cover up ?

Anyway this police action just brings more publicity to the whole story worldwide.

Goose
07-12-10, 18:50
EDIT: Nevermind: "The women claim he sexually attacked them. Both said they had consensual sex with the notorious campaigner, but said he refused to wear a condom." ... I don't get how this is rape ... if he didn't want to wear a condom, why say yes to the sex?

Theres 4 charges, and the fourth one would be the reason the allegations are so serious:
Assange has been accused of four sexual assault allegations in connection with two separate incidents when he visited Sweden in August.

Gemma Lindfield, for the Swedish authorities, told the London court the first complainant, Miss A, said she was victim of "unlawful coercion" on the night of August 14 in Stockholm.

The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

The second charge alleged Assange "sexually molested" Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her "express wish" one should be used.

The third charge claimed Assange "deliberately molested" Miss A on August 18 "in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity".

The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on August 17 without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

Forwen
07-12-10, 18:54
Lets state it a different way...

Is there any proof that it is not a cover up ?

Really? I'll say that when you were a kid you used to kick little puppies for funsies - can you prove you didn't?

The burden of proof is on those making the claim.

Mad Tony
07-12-10, 18:56
Really? I'll say that when you were a kid you used to kick little puppies for funsies - can you prove you didn't?

The burden of proof is on those making the claim.Took the words right out of my mouth.

Is there any proof that the Queen isn't a reptilian? No.

Cochrane
07-12-10, 19:21
A different issue: Lots of webhosting and payment processing companies have now stopped supporting Wikileaks (I can find some links to the news stories if you care). What do you think about that?


Personally, I think it is wrong. Wikileaks has not been charged with any crime yet. As a non-US-entity, I don’t think it is bound by US secrecy laws at all, so it seems difficult to charge them with anything. You could bring up copyright issues, but judges have consistently found in similar cases that the right of the public to be informed outweighs copyright and trade secrets.

Forwen
07-12-10, 19:31
A different issue: Lots of webhosting and payment processing companies have now stopped supporting Wikileaks (I can find some links to the news stories if you care). What do you think about that?

Did it start before or after this? http://wikileaks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/06/massive_list_of_foreign_infrastructure_critical_to _us_released Because a revelation like this could cause real, physical harm; it wouldn't surprise me if companies don't want to be associated with potential consequences.

Ward Dragon
07-12-10, 21:49
Did it start before or after this? http://wikileaks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/06/massive_list_of_foreign_infrastructure_critical_to _us_released Because a revelation like this could cause real, physical harm; it wouldn't surprise me if companies don't want to be associated with potential consequences.

Exactly. Plus the former president of Egypt Anwar El Sadat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_El_Sadat) was assassinated for trying to make peace with Israel awhile back, and the atmosphere of the region doesn't seem to have changed all that much since then, so these leaks put all of our Middle Eastern allies in danger. Now that it's publicly known who supports us, the fundamentalists will likely try to kill those people :hea:

The US attorney general is apparently considering charging Assange with Espionage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/29/AR2010112905973.html?sid=ST2010112906806), although it's unclear whether it will go through or not.

The Great Chi
07-12-10, 22:19
The burden of proof is on those making the claim.Just the same, if you claim the opposite, then where is your proof :p

As for Mad Tonys Queen reptilian which he was so desperate to get in here somewhere in this thread, as we know how he just love debunking every conspiricy therory with a jovial statement.

But god knows how royal reptillians come into this :D

Forwen
07-12-10, 22:27
Just the same, if you claim the opposite, then where is your proof :p

I claim nothing. "A government cover-up happened" is a claim that requires evidence. I'm sure someone qualified in law could explain it better than me, but surely you grasp the basic concept.

Mad Tony
07-12-10, 22:27
Just the same, if you claim the opposite, then where is your proof :p

As for Mad Tonys Queen reptilian which he was so desperate to get in here somewhere in this thread, as we know how he just love debunking every conspiricy therory with a jovial statement.

But god knows how royal reptillians come into this :DI was just making a point. I can claim a number of ridiculous things and by your logic the burden of proof doesn't fall upon the person making those claims.

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

The Great Chi
07-12-10, 22:38
I was just making a point. I can claim a number of ridiculous things and by your logic the burden of proof doesn't fall upon the person making those claims.

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

We dissagree to agree... :D :hug:

Anyway have we had anymore leaks yet ?

Mad Tony
07-12-10, 22:52
We dissagree to agree... :D :hug:Ah, the same old comeback.

Still waiting on proof that the 7/7 bomber picture is photoshopped. I think I already know what your answer will be.

The Great Chi
07-12-10, 23:01
Yeh, my answer is watch the '7/7 ripple effect' on DVD or internet, and it answers your very question.

Mad Tony
07-12-10, 23:08
Yeh, my answer is watch the '7/7 ripple effect' on DVD or internet, and it answers your very question.No, I want you to prove it to me. Why is it you conspiracy theorists can never actually try and put your point across in person? All you ever do is link to videos which are a) untrue and b) a waste of time.

Goose
08-12-10, 15:45
Yeh, my answer is watch the '7/7 ripple effect' on DVD or internet, and it answers your very question.

I watched part of it just now, it is a british muslim production, you do realise that right?

I love the opening oxy-moron "Lets discover what, most likely really did happen that day".

Dark Lugia 2
08-12-10, 16:02
I swear almost every muslim believes 9/11 is a hoax. I hate it! I come from a muslim family and everyone believes its a hoax. :confused: The bloody pakistani news channels like ARY news and that other one advertise 'documantaries' about 9/11 hoaxes and the illuminati, its ridiculous. I dont get the interest of conspiracy theories among muslims, really.

It gives muslims a bad name because it looks like theyre trying to shift the blame or cant accept that the people on the planes associated themselves with Islam.

Goose
08-12-10, 17:18
It gives muslims a bad name because it looks like theyre trying to shift the blame or cant accept that the people on the planes associated themselves with Islam.

Its because islamic nations are still theocracies unlike the west. Politics is not religious to us, but in a theocracy it is, so politics abroard in other muslim nations become islamic world politics to them.

No-one likes to believe people they consider there own are capable of doing bad things, so they look for any way to change the truth.

The Great Chi
08-12-10, 18:05
......It gives muslims a bad name because it looks like theyre trying to shift the blame or cant accept that the people on the planes associated themselves with Islam.It is not just some muslims who think it was false flag. There are many faiths here in the USA and the western world that do not believe one word of what we are told about as the 'official truth' about 9/11.

How do we know who was flying the planes? We don't.
Maybe they were flying remote controlled which is possible technically, re: pods on the underside of the planes.

Thats why truthers look at alternatives, and look to see who really stood to gain by the collapse of these towers, and that was to introduce the 'war of terror', and all the illegal wars, and reduction in personal freedoms, re: patriot act, it involved from there on in.

Mad Tony
08-12-10, 18:14
Maybe they were flying remote controlled which is possible technically, re: pods on the underside of the planes.You have GOT to be kidding me. Why not just go one step further and claim the planes weren't even there?

The Great Chi
08-12-10, 18:36
There is no good arguing with you Mad Tony as you are stuck in your ways debunking :D

Mad Tony
08-12-10, 18:44
There is no good arguing with you Mad Tony as you are stuck in your ways debunking :DNo I just think you're being ridiculous, even for a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.

The funny thing is you STILL haven't backed up any of these claims with evidence.

Cochrane
08-12-10, 18:56
There is no good arguing with you Mad Tony as you are stuck in your ways debunking :D

Stuck in not believing what someone tells you without any evidence? I thought you thought that was a good thing. If you manage to give any true evidence, and I do not mean links to videos on youtube, and it’s convincing, then I will reconsider my opinion, and I’m certain Mad Tony will, too. I have followed this discussion for a while, and there are good explanations for anything those "truthers" have brought up so far, so I think it is unlikely that you have any convincing evidence. But if you do have, well, go ahead and surprise us all (but not in this thread). Until you have it, though, you have to accept that we won't take your opinion seriously.

The Great Chi
08-12-10, 18:56
No I just think you're being ridiculous, even for a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.

The funny thing is you STILL haven't backed up any of these claims with evidence.:vlol: :hug: (I just love your questions)

Lattest info on this wikileaks thread.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336882/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-spend-year-Britain-fighting-extradition.html

Mad Tony
08-12-10, 19:03
Same old same old.

In other news, some jackasses have just hacked Mastercard because they withdrew services from Wikileaks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539

scoopy_loopy
08-12-10, 23:27
I hate how maverick the US is being about this. If he's handed over to them, to be packed away in some black bag, or executed, I'm going to be ****ed. No matter my own view views on whether what is doing is "right" or not.

Mad Tony
09-12-10, 00:09
The US are rightly ****ed off (as are a number of other governments) but I don't think they (the federal government) are calling for his execution.

Cochrane
09-12-10, 00:29
There are people calling for Wikileaks to be designated a terrorist organization, making Assange by definition a terrorist as well. And while I have not heard anything of executions yet (not counting precision strikes by drone), the US is not known for humane treatment of suspected terrorists.

Uzi master
09-12-10, 01:30
so... telling people the truth is terrorism?

what those hackers are doing is bad, but they're not officially working for wikileaks but mearly support it. a lot.

Andyroo
09-12-10, 01:35
I hate how maverick the US is being about this. If he's handed over to them, to be packed away in some black bag, or executed, I'm going to be ****ed. No matter my own view views on whether what is doing is "right" or not.

Yeah.

Ward Dragon
09-12-10, 01:49
so... telling people the truth is terrorism?

The leaks reveal the identities of people in the Middle East who support us, which puts them in danger of being assassinated. Not to mention some of the leaks also listed buildings around the world which are important to the military which could be easily used as a list of targets for terrorists.

Catapharact
09-12-10, 01:52
The leaks reveal the identities of people in the Middle East who support us, which puts them in danger of being assassinated. Not to mention some of the leaks also listed buildings around the world which are important to the military which could be easily used as a list of targets for terrorists.

Not to mention a serious breech of security protocols, international espionage, and possible ties with blacklisted organizations (who knows who these "hackers" are associated with or which organizations they support and belong to.)

Johnnay
09-12-10, 01:58
im hearing that Wikileaks is Zionist Poison.... and seeing this link sounds... interesting much

http://nationalsocialistbritain.blogspot.com/2010/12/wikileaks-is-zionist-poison.html

though im having a feeling this is just a hoax.

Catapharact
09-12-10, 02:01
im hearing that Wikileaks is Zionist Poison.... and seeing this link sounds... interesting much

http://nationalsocialistbritain.blogspot.com/2010/12/wikileaks-is-zionist-poison.html

Johnnay... Do you even TRY to look into the credentials of your sources?

Here is a hint:

You may wanna stay away from sites that have the words "national socialist" embedded in URL.

Johnnay
09-12-10, 02:04
Johnnay... Do you EVER try to look into the credentials of your sources?

Here is a hint:

You may wanna stay away from sites that have the words "national socialist" embedded in URL.

No i dont really.

... and i really didnt believe the article anyway so i'll have to take your hint.

Cochrane
09-12-10, 09:33
Not to mention a serious breech of security protocols, international espionage, and possible ties with blacklisted organizations (who knows who these "hackers" are associated with or which organizations they support and belong to.)

That’s all quite difficult to prove, though. Assuming that Wikileaks did not steal the documents themselves, which seems likely, it is hard to prove that they violated any US law at all. A big, major newspaper would not be treated like a criminal institution in such a situation. And in fact none of the big newspapers who reported about this in collaboration with Wikileaks are facing pressure anything like what the US is doing to Wikileaks. That seems… odd, to say the least.

scoopy_loopy
09-12-10, 10:57
Not to mention a serious breech of security protocols, international espionage, and possible ties with blacklisted organizations (who knows who these "hackers" are associated with or which organizations they support and belong to.)

WikiLeaks didn't make the US leak those files. Blame the Americans involved's lazy adherence to security protocol for that.


But why am I speaking with you, you'd side with the government regardless and call anyone else a "leftist extremist", whatever other opinions arise. :pi:

Andyroo
09-12-10, 11:04
Julian is just the scapegoat in all this. If it wasn't given to him and his group then it would have gone somewhere else, whoever gave the information out wanted it to be out in the public.

Maybe they should start looking in their own ranks for the people who are really responsible for all this.

scoopy_loopy
09-12-10, 11:09
MANY of the 250 people who gathered in central Brisbane tonight brandished masks of the WikiLeaks founder currently held in a UK prison, claiming "we are all Julian Assange".

Mr Assange is under arrest, facing extradition to Sweden on sex charges after publishing leaked documents on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and 250,000 US diplomatic cables that have embarrassed governments around the world.
A message from Britain-based Australian journalist John Pilger was read to the crowd in support of the demonstration.

"The defence of Julian Assange is one of the most important issues of my lifetime," Mr Pilger's message said.

Mr Pilger and speakers at the rally described Mr Assange's arrest on sex charges as a stunt to silence him.

Rally organiser Jessica Payne called on Australians to stand up for free speech.

"We're here to defend WikiLeaks, to defend our right to freedom of information, to defend our right to know what our elected representatives are up to," Ms Payne said.

"We are all Assange, and if they want to take down Assange, they have to take down all of us."

Former Australian Democrats senator and now Greens member Andrew Bartlett said Mr Assange deserves the rule of law, as do the women who have levelled serious charges against him.

"What is important is that those charges are dealt with according to the rule of law, that they are not dealt with according to political pressure," Mr Bartlett said.

"WikiLeaks is about a lot more [than] Julian Assange," he said.
He said WikiLeaks laid bare the workings of government and was being subjected to appalling bullying as pressure was brought to bear to shut it down.

Queensland Council for Civil Liberties president Michael Cope said the Australian government was willing to ignore the right of its citizens to curry favour with the US.[Of course it is! PATHETIC!]

"It's entirely inappropriate that people be extradited simply to be questioned as appears to be happening in this case," Mr Cope said.
He said the basic issue was the right to freedom of speech.
Mr Cope said government attempted to restrict that freedom "to protect themselves from being exposed to their dishonesty, their corruption and their mistakes".

About 200 of the protesters later marched through the CBD chanting slogans in support of Mr Assange.)

-Source. (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/hundreds-rally-for-wikileaks-founder/story-e6frfku0-1225968540167)

Ward Dragon
09-12-10, 11:14
Maybe they should start looking in their own ranks for the people who are really responsible for all this.

They are. The guy who actually stole the info is currently detained and faces a sentence of up to 52 years in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning#Arrest_and_criminal_charges

IceColdLaraCroft
09-12-10, 11:44
:vlol: Now they say that Desperate Housewives is a "secret weapon" against terrorism

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/wikileaks-jihad-sorry-i-dont-want-to-miss-desperate-housewives-20101209-18qd7.html

scoopy_loopy
09-12-10, 12:07
:vlol: Now they say that Desperate Housewives is a "secret weapon" against terrorism

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/wikileaks-jihad-sorry-i-dont-want-to-miss-desperate-housewives-20101209-18qd7.html

It makes sense, really it does. It could work wonders in NK too!

Chug a Bug
09-12-10, 12:29
From what I've seen these leaks are only embaressing to governments. Big whoop. If lives are at risk, then that would be different, but so far I don't see anything other than causing red faces in Washington and elsewhere. Its certainly exposed our government for being the pathetic lackey it is.

Whats the odds on Assange disappearing overnight and reappearing in handcuffs Washington couple of days later? At the very least it's got to make it easier to lean on Stockholm to get an extradition warrant when he's under lock and key than when he's a free man. His trial won't stop Wikileaks of course, but Washington won't stop until they've found someone to crucify over this.

Mad Tony
09-12-10, 13:08
From what I've seen these leaks are only embaressing to governments. Big whoop. If lives are at risk, then that would be different, but so far I don't see anything other than causing red faces in Washington and elsewhere. Its certainly exposed our government for being the pathetic lackey it is.Lives are at risk because of these leaks. Have you not been following this story?

Catapharact
09-12-10, 14:46
That’s all quite difficult to prove, though. Assuming that Wikileaks did not steal the documents themselves, which seems likely, it is hard to prove that they violated any US law at all.

... Unless offcourse they catch all the hackers responsible for this leak and make them squeal. Wikileaks isn't classified as a journalist or even a free-lance based media based group but rather a new media non-profit organization... Much like a glorified blogging site. Which leads me to the second part of your argument:

A big, major newspaper would not be treated like a criminal institution in such a situation. And in fact none of the big newspapers who reported about this in collaboration with Wikileaks are facing pressure anything like what the US is doing to Wikileaks. That seems… odd, to say the least.

Big newspaper companies are officially designated as news media groups and as such are protected under Journalist protection laws. Bloggers however aren't and as such can be held accountable for any association with... "shady" individuals and organizations.

WikiLeaks didn't make the US leak those files. Blame the Americans involved's lazy adherence to security protocol for that.

Oh right... America DESERVES to have its security breeched and its secret documents thrown out to the world because a hacker (infringing on God knows how many federal laws) managed to get to them.[/SARCASM]

But why am I speaking with you, you'd side with the government regardless and call anyone else a "leftist extremist", whatever other opinions arise. :pi:

Offcouse I am going to back the government on this. Its their job to create foreign diplomatic ties and protect itself and its allies against any and all malicious entities... Including jackoff anarchist lamos who hide behind the doctrine of "free speech" to put people's lives in danger and risk possible peace creating alliances. They just need to stay clear of the private sector and economic decisions.

But then why am I talking to you... You would go on board with any half wit anarchist who wants to "stick it up to the man."

scoopy_loopy
09-12-10, 14:58
Oh right... America DESERVES to have its security breeched and its secret documents thrown out to the world because a hacker (infringing on God knows how many federal laws) managed to get to them.[/SARCASM]

Not, what I mean. :rolleyes:



But then why am I talking to you... You would go on board with any half wit anarchist who wants to "stick it up to the man."

Oh please. When have I ever been anarchist? I resent that opinion, at least mine of you was accurate. :pi:

Catapharact
09-12-10, 15:02
Oh please. When have I ever been anarchist? I resent that opinion, at least mine of you was accurate. :pi:

Seems pretty much like it if you can't seem to grasp the fact that Assange needs to get his Ass-ange tuned for what he did. And you are accurate to what degree? According to your leftist ideologies? All you have is this idea planted in your head that Wikileaks does not deserves the scrutiny its getting when infact it does! You can't seem to accept the fact that lives are in danger now and alliances might be dissolves which would have brought lasting peace in disputed regions because wikileaks thinks it perfectly alright to "stick it up" to the governments.

Cochrane
09-12-10, 15:38
Lives are at risk because of these leaks. Have you not been following this story?
The US government has claimed that lives may be at risk. So far, I have not heard any evidence that someone was actually in trouble.

... Unless offcourse they catch all the hackers responsible for this leak and make them squeal. Wikileaks isn't classified as a journalist or even a free-lance based media based group but rather a new media non-profit organization... Much like a glorified blogging site. Which leads me to the second part of your argument:

Big newspaper companies are officially designated as news media groups and as such are protected under Journalist protection laws. Bloggers however aren't and as such can be held accountable for any association with... "shady" individuals and organizations.
So you’re only a journalist as long as the government agrees you are one? That sounds horrible. I have no idea how the legislation is in the US, but at least here, we don’t have such a narrow view of journalism.

Blogging can be journalism, too. Especially in the technology world, but more and more in all areas, the boundaries between "glorified blogs" and "true" news outlets are vanishing. Not giving these new offerings full journalistic protection without registering with the government or American Association Of Really Important Media or whatever may be the dream of some old media moguls who don't understand those damn kids and their intertubes. But it would be a huge impact on what americans like to call "First Amendment Rights".

So far, I have not heard anyone give a good legal reason why Wikileaks should not be treated like a newspaper, other than "they’re evil!".



Somewhat off-topic:
:vlol: Now they say that Desperate Housewives is a "secret weapon" against terrorism

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/wikileaks-jihad-sorry-i-dont-want-to-miss-desperate-housewives-20101209-18qd7.html
Yeah, this story may sound weird, but it’s more likely to be true than you might realize. The US have a lot of media influence and a lot of weight to spread their culture around. One could actually say that one of the reasons why Germany is an ally instead of an enemy of the US today is because of the mass of american culture and the very positive image of the country that has been imported since world war two.

Catapharact
09-12-10, 15:47
So you’re only a journalist as long as the government agrees you are one? That sounds horrible. I have no idea how the legislation is in the US, but at least here, we don’t have such a narrow view of journalism.

It doesn't sounds so horrible when you take into account all the hate mongering blog sites out there (such as the little link that Johnnay posted.)

Blogging can be journalism, too. Especially in the technology world, but more and more in all areas, the boundaries between "glorified blogs" and "true" news outlets are vanishing. Not giving these new offerings full journalistic protection without registering with the government or American Association Of Really Important Media or whatever may be the dream of some old media moguls who don't understand those damn kids and their intertubes. But it would be a huge impact on what americans like to call "First Amendment Rights".

So far, I have not heard anyone give a good legal reason why Wikileaks should not be treated like a newspaper, other than "they’re evil!".

Bloggers can get accredited as journalists IF they go through all the legal proceedings of registering themselves as a Freelance news agency, etc. and get approval for it on REASONABLE grounds. I guess Wikileaks didn't really has much of a reasonable ground to place itself as a sound news organization... Or maybe that moof Assange just doesn't likes the idea of being registered by governments :whi:.

Assange himself admitted that he just likes to stick it up to Authority. Wow... VERY professional grounds to set up a news agency upon.

patriots88888
09-12-10, 15:51
So far, I have not heard anyone give a good legal reason why Wikileaks should not be treated like a newspaper, other than "they’re evil!".

I don't know, maybe journalistic integrity. That would be, acting reasonably, and even more importantly, responsibly with the position that they have. As of right now, I'm not seeing much of that from them. There is to an extent a degree of limitation in journalism, something that many are unaware of.

ggctuk
09-12-10, 16:06
Anonymous has been attacking any site that has rebuked WikiLeaks - MasterCard, VISA, PayPal... Amazon, Twitter and Facebook are next, apparently. I disagree with what WikiLeaks released, sure, because there are things we should know and things we are better off knowing. That's not to say I am against freedom of speech - far from it. However, Anonymous seems patently unaware that what they are doing is throwing oil to put out a fire. This is going to affect people in the millions, and in the end it will probably allow Congress in the US to force through a bill banning WikiLeaks from the US, and will probably encourage other governments to do the same. There is such a thing as collateral damage, but this is just ridiculous.

Cochrane
09-12-10, 16:11
It doesn't sounds so horrible when you take into account all the hate mongering blog sites out there (such as the little link that Johnnay posted.)
Hm… no, it still sounds bad. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to defend sites like that at all, but if we want to have a fully free press and free speech, then we have to accept that this includes a right to be stupid. If they do incite to hatred or crimes, journalists can be charged just like anyone.

Bloggers can get accredited as journalists IF they go through all the legal proceedings of registering themselves as a Freelance news agency, etc. and get approval for it on REASONABLE grounds. I guess Wikileaks didn't really has much of a reasonable ground to place itself as a sound news organization... Or maybe that moof Assange just doesn't likes the idea of being registered by governments :whi:.
So freedom is insight into necessity now? I am not really a fan of that line of thinking. Out of curiosity, do you describe the legal system of the US here? Could you give me some more links so I could check this out for myself?

As for Wikileaks: What country do you propose they register in? And for that matter, what is so wrong about not wanting to be registered by a government? I don’t want to be registered by any government either unless it’s absolutely necessary, since it has turned out that governments cannot always be trusted. And with that I don’t just mean the twentieth century dictatorship. All modern governments, the US government in particular, keep stuff secret that the public really should know. Hence the need for whistleblowers and for websites that publish that information. So yes, I do see a legitimate reason for Wikileaks to be considered journalism.

Are the contents of these cables things that the public (both US and world wide) should have a right to know? For the most part not, I guess, but some of them definitely yes, such as the parts where US embassy personal is asked to spy on UN delegates. And they also have a long track record of releasing things that definitely should have been released (such as the german Toll Collect contracts, although I guess that won’t matter much to you).

Assange himself admitted that he just likes to stick it up to Authority. Wow... VERY professional grounds to set up a news agency upon.
Yeah, I get that you don’t like him. That’s not the issue here, though.

The Great Chi
09-12-10, 16:25
Julian is just the scapegoat in all this. If it wasn't given to him and his group then it would have gone somewhere else, whoever gave the information out wanted it to be out in the public.

Maybe they should start looking in their own ranks for the people who are really responsible for all this.Now this is a very good point, the 'conspirist theory part of me' thinks some of these leaks are not a bad thing, and have been delibertely put out to the public.

Consider our little korean dictator friend in North Korea. These leaks show in public that he has no suporters anymore, Red China does not want him or his country. So the dictator now knows where he stands in the International community, and might just shut up and toe the line.

Eventually he may give in and take in western capitalism like South korea, including the influx of KFC, McDonalds and multiplex cinemas which he could run in an enterprising sort of way :D

Mad Tony
09-12-10, 17:13
The US government has claimed that lives may be at risk. So far, I have not heard any evidence that someone was actually in trouble.Do you not agree that releasing a list of global sites the US considers important to national security isn't putting lives at risk?

Catapharact
09-12-10, 17:44
So freedom is insight into necessity now? I am not really a fan of that line of thinking. Out of curiosity, do you describe the legal system of the US here? Could you give me some more links so I could check this out for myself?

I'll one up on this and give you the link to the landmark ruling that happened in a Jersey courtroom that exempted bloggers from Journalist shield laws:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/291232

As for Wikileaks: What country do you propose they register in? And for that matter, what is so wrong about not wanting to be registered by a government? I don’t want to be registered by any government either unless it’s absolutely necessary, since it has turned out that governments cannot always be trusted. And with that I don’t just mean the twentieth century dictatorship. All modern governments, the US government in particular, keep stuff secret that the public really should know. Hence the need for whistleblowers and for websites that publish that information. So yes, I do see a legitimate reason for Wikileaks to be considered journalism.

How about he starts off by actually sticking to REAL journalistic integrity and link it with its associate partner firm; The Sunshine Press. The Sunshine Press supports wikileaks but doesn't seems to want to integrate itself with it... Or its sources. Hmmm... I wonder why.

As for not trusting the governments to register himself down as an accredited journalist, it seems that he wasn't too shy about being a LEGIT journalist when he uncovered the extrajudicial killings in Kenya for which he was awarded by Amesty International. Seems like its only AFTER he got in trouble with the law on hacking based crimes and the like that he decided to go after governments world wide.

jamieoliver22
09-12-10, 18:13
The rate of DDoS attacks that are happening as a result of the attacks on Wikileaks is actually quite amazing... http://pandalabs.pandasecurity.com/tis-the-season-of-ddos-wikileaks-editio/

tampi
09-12-10, 18:27
I am happy they publish all these things.
At least now there are not only suspicions on hypocrisies and lies of some politicians.

Goose
09-12-10, 18:29
That’s all quite difficult to prove, though. Assuming that Wikileaks did not steal the documents themselves

Everyone in the military signs a form of official secrets act whatever the american version may be. If i break that contract, i break the law, and whoever helps me todo so is complicit with that crime. Theres loads of reasons why what wikileaks has done is against the law.

If there is no specific law atm, then reason would make someone write one up.


Consider our little korean dictator friend in North Korea. These leaks show in public that he has no suporters anymore, Red China does not want him or his country. So the dictator now knows where he stands in the International community, and might just shut up and toe the line.

Eventually he may give in and take in western capitalism like South korea, including the influx of KFC, McDonalds and multiplex cinemas which he could run in an enterprising sort of way :D

To be honest, for someone who's into conspiricies your not thinking for yourself, rather your jumping on other peoples band wagons, like that ripple effect. To me, of all those 'false flag operations' you went on about, the whole wikileaks scheme would be the most obvious one to actually be a government lead operation. They have official files being released that point to key enemies in the middle east and asia as being isolated from there only friends, to countries in both those regions offering messages of support to the US in physically removing the enemies by force, and they have a martyr in the shape of Assange just to make it more reaslistic.

If the government issued these statements without any of the wikileaks buildup, would anyone listen? Would anyone even believe that muslim countries want the west to destroy iran? Or that we have good reason to attack the north?

jackles
09-12-10, 18:49
To me it signals how invasive the use of technology has become in our lives...and that people don't seem to understand how once information is out there.....it is 'out there'.




jamie...interesting link.

lara c. fan
09-12-10, 19:37
The rate of DDoS attacks that are happening as a result of the attacks on Wikileaks is actually quite amazing... http://pandalabs.pandasecurity.com/tis-the-season-of-ddos-wikileaks-editio/

Holy ****... That's madness.

The Great Chi
09-12-10, 20:00
To be honest, for someone who's into conspiricies your not thinking for yourself, rather your jumping on other peoples band wagons, like that ripple effect. ....Lighten up man, its nearly Christmas :D :hug:

Goose
09-12-10, 20:32
Lighten up man, its nearly Christmas :D :hug:

Im working christmas this year, so im not bothered lol.

Either way, if you want a conspiricy that actually makes sense, here it is, wikileaks is a propoganda event to convince the west that people in power over-seas want us to invade our enemies.

Ward Dragon
09-12-10, 22:20
For the most part not, I guess, but some of them definitely yes, such as the parts where US embassy personal is asked to spy on UN delegates.

Why is that news? I had assumed that's what we were doing before the leak confirmed it, and I am sure other countries are doing the same. That's how it works.

I'll one up on this and give you the link to the landmark ruling that happened in a Jersey courtroom that exempted bloggers from Journalist shield laws:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/291232



Exactly. He's not acting as a responsible journalist, so he shouldn't be entitled to the same shield laws. Those laws are meant to protect honest journalists who do due diligence, fact check their information, and carefully consider how to present the story without putting anyone's lives in danger. I don't think any of that applies to Assange. The information that he's publishing was clearly illegally obtained and could very easily put lives at risk, so I think the government is well within their rights to ask him where he got it.

To be honest, for someone who's into conspiricies your not thinking for yourself, rather your jumping on other peoples band wagons, like that ripple effect. To me, of all those 'false flag operations' you went on about, the whole wikileaks scheme would be the most obvious one to actually be a government lead operation. They have official files being released that point to key enemies in the middle east and asia as being isolated from there only friends, to countries in both those regions offering messages of support to the US in physically removing the enemies by force, and they have a martyr in the shape of Assange just to make it more reaslistic.

If the government issued these statements without any of the wikileaks buildup, would anyone listen? Would anyone even believe that muslim countries want the west to destroy iran? Or that we have good reason to attack the north?

Whoa, I actually half believe that now :eek:

scoopy_loopy
09-12-10, 22:35
Seems pretty much like it if you can't seem to grasp the fact that Assange needs to get his Ass-ange tuned for what he did. And you are accurate to what degree? According to your leftist ideologies? All you have is this idea planted in your head that Wikileaks does not deserves the scrutiny its getting when infact it does! You can't seem to accept the fact that lives are in danger now and alliances might be dissolves which would have brought lasting peace in disputed regions because wikileaks thinks it perfectly alright to "stick it up" to the governments.

I'm not a "leftist" ... at all. I'm hardly political, if I were I'd be pretty damn centrist.

Not once in this thread have I said that I believe that they're (WikiLeaks/Julian) doing the right thing, I'm very much on the fence. What I am trying to say, is that I should hope that Australia would want to protect it's citizen and fight for his rights to fair justice.

Never mind whether he's right or wrong. We can't pretend we're oh-so-civilised, and take the ideology of justice and freedom to heart, and then take all that away when one guy will serve as such an excellent scape goat.

It's hippocritical BS and it really rubs me the wrong way. Just last month or so, the government fought the US extraditing a man who murdered his Wife, because it was feared he'd be subject to the death penalty.

But sure, let's just GIVE the US Assange, and let's be really vocal about it too, because it'll earn us more brownie points. :rolleyes:

Weemanply109
09-12-10, 22:52
Wow, a war is gonna go down here!

Uzi master
09-12-10, 23:25
Okay, so I havent been active in this disscusion, but I have heard a lot of people say peoples lives could be in danger...

Well the only people tha get in danger are peopel that are part of these secrets, spie's government officials ect. who knew what they were getting into when they took the jobs. but hey, whatever...

Mad Tony
09-12-10, 23:30
Well the only people tha get in danger are peopel that are part of these secrets, spie's government officials ect. who knew what they were getting into when they took the jobs. but hey, whatever...Wrong. I suggest you thread through the thread. Entire peace deals could be at risk and these leaks could severely destabilize regions like the Middle East.

And of course, let's not forget that revealing a list of sites that are important to US national security is ridiculously dangerous and a threat to everybody.

Love2Raid
09-12-10, 23:46
The rate of DDoS attacks that are happening as a result of the attacks on Wikileaks is actually quite amazing... http://pandalabs.pandasecurity.com/tis-the-season-of-ddos-wikileaks-editio/
Sarah Palin's website got attacked as well. :D
(That grin is just referring to Palin's website being attacked, just so that you know...)

Ward Dragon
09-12-10, 23:52
Sarah Palin's website got attacked as well. :D
(That grin is just referring to Palin's website being attacked, just so that you know...)

Ah, I found the article about that:


Hackers in London that the Palin team believe to be affiliated with “Operation Payback” – a group of supporters of Julian Assange and Wikileaks – have tried to shut down SarahPac and have disrupted Sarah and Todd Palin’s personal credit card accounts, SarahPAC aide Rebecca Mansour said.

“No wonder others are keeping silent about Assange's antics,” Palin emailed ABC News. “This is what happens when you exercise the First Amendment and speak against his sick, un-American espionage efforts.”

Palin has criticized Wikileaks founder Assange, writing on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin#%21/notes/sarah-palin/serious-questions-about-the-obama-administrations-incompetence-in-the-wikileaks-/465212788434) that his “past posting of classified documents revealed the identity of more than 100 Afghan sources to the Taliban. Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders?...Assange is not a 'journalist' any more than the 'editor' of al-Qaeda's new English-language magazine Inspire is a 'journalist.’ He is an anti-American operative with blood on his hands."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/12/exclusive-palin-under-cyber-attack-from-wikileaks-supporters-in-operation-payback.html

Love2Raid
09-12-10, 23:58
I do think it's getting out of hand though. They have also attacked Amazon for some reason.

Mad Tony
09-12-10, 23:58
So in other words, criticize Wikileaks and you get hacked? Very fascist that.

It would be so hilarious if Wikileaks themselves got hacked. I hope the FBI Cyber Crime unit are already on it.

patriots88888
10-12-10, 02:10
To me it signals how invasive the use of technology has become in our lives...and that people don't seem to understand how once information is out there.....it is 'out there'.

jamie...interesting link.

Exactly! Welcome to the information age where everybody actually thinks it's important to know everything about everyone. Now we get to know what Missy the pop star had during her lunch and what color socks Mr. Joe athlete will be wearing at the next game.

Okay, not exactly on topic but I think it's a relative point considering how this Wikileaks seems to be following that trend of getting as much info. (some meaningful, most of it useless uber junk) out there. Personally, I think Wikileaks is playing a dangerous game just for the sake of making a name for themselves.

ggctuk
10-12-10, 15:33
So in other words, criticize Wikileaks and you get hacked? Very fascist that.

It would be so hilarious if Wikileaks themselves got hacked. I hope the FBI Cyber Crime unit are already on it.

I was supporting them before with the whole copyright war thing, but this is why I'm not supporting Anonymous with this one. The problem is, how would one attack Anonymous?

Catapharact
10-12-10, 16:35
I'm not a "leftist" ... at all. I'm hardly political, if I were I'd be pretty damn centrist.

And I don't always side with the government. If anything, there are a lot of things that the government needs to keep its nose out of... Like forceful implementation of environmental laws that end up doing more harm then good... But that is a whole new topic.

Not once in this thread have I said that I believe that they're (WikiLeaks/Julian) doing the right thing, I'm very much on the fence. What I am trying to say, is that I should hope that Australia would want to protect it's citizen and fight for his rights to fair justice.

Never mind whether he's right or wrong. We can't pretend we're oh-so-civilised, and take the ideology of justice and freedom to heart, and then take all that away when one guy will serve as such an excellent scape goat.

I personally would like to see Julian shipped off to the U.S. for what he is done... The same way I believe that Canadian "Citizen" (I use the term loosely) Khadr needs to stay in Gitmo for supporting of Al-Quakers. I have little tolerance for those who say that they are free born citizens of a nation that provides them the means and resources to make something of themselves and then they turn around and backstab the nation that provides them refuge and citizenship status.

I for one am amused (but not surprised) that the world is remotely shocked over Middle East's support for Western Nations and Israel... Or China choosing not to back North Korea. If people actually read up on the political histories of the respected regions, they would probably wouldn't be so shocked at these "revelations" provided by Wikileaks (I certainly wasn't.) Then again, the world is way too preoccupied with Angelina Jolie, Lady Gaga and other moofettes to actually pay attention the issues happening around them.

Mad Tony
11-12-10, 23:31
I didn't know this but apparently Assange has a "poison pill" file.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-12-08/us/wikileaks.poison.pill_1_julian-assange-wikileaks-key-encryption?_s=PM:US

He's holding the world at ransom and trying to hide behind "free speech".

Johnnay
12-12-10, 03:33
a tiny bit off topic but Thanks to Wikileaks it has just been revealed after all even the Pope doesnt want Turkey in the EU because of the Christian Roots in the Union.. after all no one wants Muslim Turks and Turkey in the Christian Club;). see what i did there


speaking of the hacking of the sites, the hackers are calling it a "World Cyber War" which is to me gonna last what... a few days i reckon

Goose
12-12-10, 07:45
a tiny bit off topic but Thanks to Wikileaks it has just been revealed after all even the Pope doesnt want Turkey in the EU because of the Christian Roots in the Union.. after all no one wants Muslim Turks and Turkey in the Christian Club;).


No one cares, but of course the pope wouldnt want that, its no secret. The muslim turks invasion of constantinople (Istanbul) is the center of two crusades and numerous other conflicts. The pope still lives in the past.

lara c. fan
13-12-10, 19:04
Wikileaks defectors to launch Openleaks alternative
By Jonathan Fildes
Technology reporter, BBC News


Daniel Domscheit-Berg, who left the site after disagreements with its founder, plans to launch Openleaks in the coming months.

The technology, which can be embedded in any organisation's sites, will allow whistle-blowers to anonymously leak data to publishers of their choice.

Its founders say it will address problems they had with Wikileaks.

"We felt that Wikileaks was developing in the wrong direction," Mr Domscheit-Berg told BBC News. "There's too much concentration of power in one organisation; too much responsibility; too many bottlenecks; too many resource constraints."

He said that the team did not want the responsibility of deciding what was or was not relevant and what would be good for the organisation as a whole to publish.

"This is the wrong question and should never be asked."

Network effect
Unlike Wikileaks, Openleaks will not publish or verify material; leaving that role to newspapers, "NGOs, labour unions and other interested entities".

"We are trying to build a community of various organisations that need or have use for anonymously submitted information," former Wikileaks member Herbert Snorrason told the BBC.

Mr Domscheit-Berg, said the decision to be a "conduit" rather than publisher was made because of the team's experience at Wikileaks.


The idea came out of a project developed during the team's time at Wikileaks
"That was another constraint we saw - if your website becomes too popular then you need a lot of resources to process submissions," he said.

Instead, Mr Domscheit-Berg said the organisation would be a "technology provider", supplying anonymous online drop boxes for organisations.

"[Openleaks] aims to provide the technological means to organisations and other entities around the world to be able to accept anonymous submissions in the forms of documents or other information," said Mr Domscheit-Berg.

This would form a distributed network of submissions pages across the web, powered by Openleaks technology for keeping sources anonymous and documents secure.

Whistle-blowers would be able to submit documents to an organisation's site, which would then be available for them to use for an exclusive period, specified by the source.

"If after that time you choose not to publish the document yourself the document will be shared with the rest of the subscribers in the system," said Mr Domscheit-Berg.

"If you choose not to publish it, many other parties will receive the document - and we are pretty sure that one of them will publish it."

“We do not think that Openleaks will be in Wikileaks shadow”

In addition to the technology, he said, Openleaks will offer legal advice to organisations about dealing with and publishing sensitive material.

Initially, the team will work with a handful of small organisations, with the aim of growing the project slowly.

Over time, he said, the group hopes the network of participating organisations will become more "diverse, complex and dynamic", which will afford more protection when dealing with sensitive material.

"With each new entity you are adding more nodes to the network; you're adding more complexity to the network so everyone is protecting everyone else."

The result, he said, would be "technically and legally very powerful".

'Evolutionary step'
The project was born out of an idea for a "Wikileaks button" that was developed before Mr Domscheit-Berg left the organisation. All of the team behind the project have now left Wikileaks because of disagreements about how the site was run.

"One of the main issues we see with Wikileaks today is that it has become too much about the project," said Mr Domscheit-Berg, who said he still supports Wikileaks founder Julian Assange.

"It has become too much about self-promoting the project and self-promoting people involved with the project which is rather distracting from the content of the documents."

Mr Assange, in particular, has been criticised for his high-profile role; something he has said was necessary.

"I originally tried hard for the organisation to have no face, because I wanted egos to play no part in our activities," he recently told the Guardian newspaper.

"In the end, someone must be responsible to the public and only a leadership that is willing to be publicly courageous can genuinely suggest that sources take risks for the greater good."

One problem Openleaks may face is increased competition amongst a raft of established sites and new competitors - including Brusselsleaks - for documents from leakers. It may also need to establish its credibility, alongside the highly successful Wikileaks.

But Mr Domscheit-Berg does not think this will be a problem.

"I believe lots of people are aware of some of the issues that Wikileaks has right now and there is already some critical debate."

He said the site was already "drowning in contact requests" and that it would be targeting different material - for example documents from councils that local newspapers may be interested in.

"Way more people are sceptical about the direction Wikileaks are heading and see what we are doing as the right step into the future. So, I don't think credibility will be a problem."

To build further trust, he said, the group would establish a foundation in Germany to handle and publish its finances.

In addition, he said, the model they had chosen to use would mean that Openleaks would rarely be in the spotlight.

"We're not aiming for any front pages," said Mr Domscheit-Berg. "If anything at all, this organisation is to enable others to do that."

It has now launched a website which will detail the evolution of the project before it goes live in the coming months.

"We do not think that Openleaks will be in Wikileaks' shadow," Mr Domscheit-Berg said. "We are a completely different approach. We do not see ourselves as competitors - we are the next evolutionary step."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11981301

Oh dear...

Mad Tony
13-12-10, 19:35
Great, another website for hackers to submit confidential documents to for the purposes of destabilization and chaos.

Cochrane
13-12-10, 19:38
Great, another website for people to submit confidential documents to for the purposes of informing the public about incompetence, corruption and just general wrong or questionable things in their government!

Mad Tony
13-12-10, 19:41
Great, another website for people to submit confidential documents to for the purposes of informing the public about incompetence, corruption and just general wrong or questionable things in their government!I wouldn't mind if it was just things like that (e.g. the expenses scandal we had over here least year), but it's not.

Cochrane
13-12-10, 19:48
I wouldn't mind if it was just things like that (e.g. the expenses scandal we had over here least year), but it's not.

That's probably true, and whether any particular document fits better in one category or the other is probably hard to say in many cases. But I think the overall net effect of such sites is on the positive side.

Mad Tony
13-12-10, 19:52
That's probably true, and whether any particular document fits better in one category or the other is probably hard to say in many cases. But I think the overall net effect of such sites is on the positive side.All I've seen is chaos. Also, the methods of obtaining these documents are most certainly questionable if not down right wrong.

pemides
16-12-10, 03:10
I agree that wikileaks should be more carefull in what they publish. The list of strategic US infrastructures shows no wrongdoing of questionable behaviour on the part of the US government, and should not have been published. Some cables are pure gossip, and should not have been published.

Nevertheless, I think wikileaks should be given the benefit of the doubt, given what they have disclosured so far. Anyone remembers this video? http://www.collateralmurder.com/

The war logs from Afghanistan and Iraq also show bad behaviour on the part of the people involved.

And getting back to the cables, while most of them are pure gossip, some have given relevant information. If the USG is pressing sweden to strongly fight piracy, of has written most of the Spanish bill on piracy, that is of concern to me and I'm happy it has been published. Portuguese prime minister told the portuguese parliament he has not received any request for CIA flights carrying Guantanamo prisioners to go through Portuguese airspace some time ago. The cables proved he was lying and that is of concern to me. The USG was pressuring the German government to let go of a murder of an inocent in Germany by a CIA official. That worries me.

Politically I am a right wing person, and I look at the United States economic model as an example of meritocracy that many countries should follow. So please do not call me esquerdist, as I take that as an insult :D But in foreign policy, the US does a lot of crap, commits a lot of war crimes, manipulates countries at his own will. The world deserves to know about that! So I fully support the wikileaks concept, although I don't agree with some particular publishing decisions.

Now for something completely different: the united states reaction to the leaks is completely disproportional. Treason? Really? They are not americans, and they have not signed any confidentiality agreements. Plus, they are working above the law to try to silence wikileaks, pressuring companies to stop working with them. Isn't the rule of law supposed to be important in the US? Work by your laws, and stop making pressures and calling for assassinations... the consequence of not working within the law is the emergence of groups like anonymous that will retaliate. And very well in my opinion. And I hope they continue to fight the US fight to wikileaks. Because this last one is not going by any rules.

To finish, how coward the Time's editors for not following the readers choice of Assange for the person of the year...

--edit--

See the history of the main leaks so far (not cablegate... the main leaks since 2007):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8152326/WikiLeaks-release-Timeline-of-the-key-WikiLeaks-revelations.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8070253/Wikileaks-10-greatest-stories.html

Tell me they did not leak important information that the public should know about...

Ward Dragon
16-12-10, 03:51
Now for something completely different: the united states reaction to the leaks is completely disproportional. Treason? Really? They are not americans, and they have not signed any confidentiality agreements.

The people who are yelling treason and demanding executions are either not an actual part of the government, or else they aren't in a position to actually carry out what they are saying. Last I heard, the actual government was considering charges of espionage, not treason. Someone doesn't have to be a US citizen to spy on the US and release classified documents where the US's enemies can see them, so I can see how that charge might apply. Don't know if they'll follow through with charging him though.

Forwen
16-12-10, 08:54
pemides, this is a great post.

pemides
16-12-10, 12:48
The people who are yelling treason and demanding executions are either not an actual part of the government, or else they aren't in a position to actually carry out what they are saying. Last I heard, the actual government was considering charges of espionage, not treason. Someone doesn't have to be a US citizen to spy on the US and release classified documents where the US's enemies can see them, so I can see how that charge might apply. Don't know if they'll follow through with charging him though.

If the US law system allows them to charge wikileaks with espionage, that US is in their right to do so. As long as they work whitin the law I respect that.

In my opinion, they were not responsible for the original leak. They are just an intermediaire, and are publishing the leaks to the same extent the new york times and other european journals. So why should they be guilty of espionage and not those journals?

But my opinion aside, if the USG feels they could win a court case of espionage, then go ahead and press charges. Courts will then do their job. I prefer that they press charges through the appropriate chanels, than having senators working above the law, exerting political pressure to shut wikileaks down. It doesn't work, and it just looks desperate. It does not favour the image of the United States abroad, and by working above the law, they give moral justification for other groups such as anonymous to do the same.

ggctuk
16-12-10, 14:48
Assange has been granted bail (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Julian-Assange-Granted-Bail-At-London-High-Court-Pending-Extradition-Moves-Against-WikiLeaks-Boss/Article/201012315856590?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15856590_Julian_Assange_Granted_Bail_A t_London_High_Court_Pending_Extradition_Moves_Agai nst_WikiLeaks_Boss), and Anonymous talks about its plans regarding DDoSing anti-Wikileaks sites (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Technology/Cyber-Warriors-Anonymous-Internet-Insurgents-Who-Support-Julian-Assange-And-WikiLeaks/Article/201012315856259). I have one thing to say to that last one: Their supporters are over 9000! :vlol:

dizzydoil
16-12-10, 15:06
Can he plz leak some UFO crap? I'd love that. :pi:

Goose
16-12-10, 17:14
I thought it was funny that when Assange was granted bail, he asked the judge to keep his bail house location secret. It seems everyone is fair game to wikileaks, except who they are and where the info comes from.

After all, if we dont know who's telling us these things, why should you believe them?

pemides
16-12-10, 17:22
It is a legit concern of him, I think. Given the assassination calls some important people have been making :o

And no one has yet disputed the authenticity of the cables, so it's pretty obvious they are legit. What some dispute is the truth of what is said in the cables (some European leaders claim US officials were lying when they wrote some stuff in the cables).