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Super Badnik
07-05-11, 21:13
A new protest movement sparked by a policeman's ill-judged advice to women students to "avoid dressing like sluts" has taken root in the US and Canada.

Thousands of people - some dressed in jeans, others more provocatively - are taking part in marches, or "SlutWalks".

The aim, say organisers, is to highlight a culture in which the victim rather than rapist or abuser is blamed.

A "SlutWalk" in Toronto last month attracted some 3,000 people. A similar event is due to take place in Boston.

Nearly 2,500 people have signed up via Facebook to attend Saturday's march in Boston.

Boston organiser Siobhan Connors explained: "The event is in protest of a culture that we think is too permissive when it comes to rape and sexual assault."

"It's to bring awareness to the shame and degradation women still face for expressing their sexuality... essentially for behaving in a healthy and sexual way," the 20-year-old told Associated Press.

Police officer Constable Michael Sanguinetti had been giving a talk on health and safety to a group of students at Osgoode Hall Law School in Toronto when he made the now infamous remarks.

"You know, I think we're beating around the bush here," he reportedly told them. "I've been told I'm not supposed to say this - however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised".

He has since apologised for his remarks and has been disciplined by the Toronto police, but remains on duty.

Meanwhile, his remarks have led to "SlutWalks" not only in Toronto but also in Dallas, Asheville in North Carolina, and in the Canadian capital, Ottawa.

As well as Boston, marches are also planned in Seattle, Chicago, Philadelphia, Reno and Austin.

The SlutWalk Toronto website says the aim of the movement is to "re-appropriate" the world slut.

"Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work," it says.

Everybody, from singles, couples, parents, sisters, brothers, children and friends, are encouraged to join the marches.

The rallies typically end with speakers and workshops on stopping sexual violence and calling on law enforcement agencies not to blame victims after sexual assaults, the Associated Press reports.Source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13320785)
Apparently they will be chanting "Yes means yes, no means no" and "Hey hey, ho ho, patriarchy has to go". But anyway, I agree with this, these attitudes about rape cannot be allowed to continue or make a come back. People should be allowed to dress however they wish to without feeling fearful or even guilty.

NRO.
07-05-11, 21:15
Welcome to the 1950's!

I'm Cave Johnson. *dum dum* I own the place. :pi:

Lemmie
07-05-11, 21:15
Absolutely.

Mad Tony
07-05-11, 21:19
As far as I'm aware people take a very serious attitude to rape. I can't speak for the USA or Canada but here I've never heard the victim being blamed. :confused:

Tjw croft
07-05-11, 21:22
I've heard of the victim being blamed a lot more these days. I've seen people use the excuse "Look at the way she was dressed! That means yes more than her words say no." Sickening. People should be able to dress however the hell they want. Seriously.

xXhayleyroxXx
07-05-11, 21:25
No one deserves rape ~ its so uncaring to be calling them sluts.

Dennis's Mom
07-05-11, 21:26
I agree to a point. But it's called "dressing provocatively" for a reason. The point is to "provoke" a reaction.

There's no excuse for violence ever, but women need to learn clothing sends messages, both good and bad. If walking alone to your car late at night is a bad idea, then maybe wearing the Japan dress to a bar with a bunch of drunk dudes is a bad idea as well.

larafan25
07-05-11, 21:31
I agree to a point. But it's called "dressing provocatively" for a reason. The point is to "provoke" a reaction.

There's no excuse for violence ever, but women need to learn clothing sends messages, both good and bad. If walking alone to your car late at night is a bad idea, then maybe wearing the Japan dress to a bar with a bunch of drunk dudes is a bad idea as well.

I see shirtless guys walking around in the summer and I don't rape them.

Tony9595
07-05-11, 21:32
There's no excuse for violence ever, but women need to learn clothing sends messages, both good and bad. If walking alone to your car late at night is a bad idea, then maybe wearing the Japan dress to a bar with a bunch of drunk dudes is a bad idea as well.

:tmb:

Nerd For Life
07-05-11, 21:34
I agree to a point. But it's called "dressing provocatively" for a reason. The point is to "provoke" a reaction.

There's no excuse for violence ever, but women need to learn clothing sends messages, both good and bad. If walking alone to your car late at night is a bad idea, then maybe wearing the Japan dress to a bar with a bunch of drunk dudes is a bad idea as well.

I think this is terribly close-minded.

Women are allowed to dress however the hell they want.

Laras Backpack
07-05-11, 21:43
I agree to a point. But it's called "dressing provocatively" for a reason. The point is to "provoke" a reaction.

There's no excuse for violence ever, but women need to learn clothing sends messages, both good and bad. If walking alone to your car late at night is a bad idea, then maybe wearing the Japan dress to a bar with a bunch of drunk dudes is a bad idea as well.
These women already know this, but that's not the point. These marches and movements aren't about telling women not to be responsible and street-smart. It's about letting people know, every where, that there are not ifs or buts when it comes to rape or any other kind of assault.

It's also asking why the most common suggestion to prevent rape is to control what women wear, where they go and when. Aren't there other ways to stop rape?

And it's not about dressing provocatively. Is a tank top and jeans provocative? A knee-length dress. For some, yes. For others, no. In some countries, a woman showing her hair in public could be considered a cause if she were attacked. Our idea of what is provocative is culturally constructed, as are most attitudes towards sex and rape IMO.

larafan25
07-05-11, 21:45
^Good points.

Laras Backpack
07-05-11, 22:00
^Good points.

Thank you. :)

I was reading about this sort of thing online today as it happens. There are a lot of really interesting blogs on this sort of thing.

Alas blog is one of my favourites. It has some good, diverse discussions on these issues and movements. It's not perfect, no blog is. But it's thought provoking nonetheless: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2004/01/12/avoiding-rape-and-common-sense/

Ward Dragon
07-05-11, 22:07
I agree to a point. But it's called "dressing provocatively" for a reason. The point is to "provoke" a reaction.

There's no excuse for violence ever, but women need to learn clothing sends messages, both good and bad. If walking alone to your car late at night is a bad idea, then maybe wearing the Japan dress to a bar with a bunch of drunk dudes is a bad idea as well.

I agree with this. I know in an ideal world, people should be able to wear whatever they want. However in the real world, I think it's incredibly stupid to do something like walk through the bad part of town wearing next to nothing. I'm not blaming the victim. I'm simply stating what my self-preservation instincts tell me about avoiding potentially dangerous situations.

Encore
07-05-11, 22:11
However in the real world, I think it's incredibly stupid to do something like walk through the bad part of town wearing next to nothing. I'm not blaming the victim. I'm simply stating what my self-preservation instincts tell me about avoiding potentially dangerous situations.

Yeah I kinda think the same way. Yes, it's terrible in terms of individual freedom and I don't see that woman (who dresses provocatively) as a slut. I also don't agree with DM when she says the woman who dresses that way is always "sending a message". It's not that simple.

However, in terms of personal safety, dressing discreetly in certain circumstances is a perfectly reasonable advice to give.

SamReeves
07-05-11, 22:19
Break out the burkas. Too many boobs are being seen in public! OMG!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/hesiodau/ScreenShot013-2.jpg

Ward Dragon
07-05-11, 22:36
Yeah I kinda think the same way. Yes, it's terrible in terms of individual freedom and I don't see that woman (who dresses provocatively) as a slut. I also don't agree with DM when she says the woman who dresses that way is always "sending a message". It's not that simple.

Yeah, it's a complicated issue. I guess to me, if we say that the clothing doesn't matter at all and doesn't have anything to do with anything, then that's like saying there's nothing that women can do to protect themselves. I hate the idea of being powerless to protect myself.

It makes me feel safer to avoid dressing too provocatively, to not go to bars alone or leave my drink unattended, to avoid walking around alone at night, and similar such things. I think these things do make a difference and I feel better thinking that I'm doing something to protect myself instead of simply trusting every person I meet to be a good law-abiding citizen.

However, in terms of personal safety, dressing discreetly in certain circumstances is a perfectly reasonable advice to give.

Yes, I think that's a very important point :) I'm completely against blaming the victim or showing any leniency to rapists due to how the victim was dressed or any similar such thing. However I do hope that women will be careful and try to protect themselves because it's a fact that some people are dangerous, no matter how unfair that is.

IceColdLaraCroft
08-05-11, 01:33
Break out the burkas. Too many boobs are being seen in public! OMG!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/hesiodau/ScreenShot013-2.jpg

That's part of why women are covered in the ME. Because men can't control themselves.

I'm sorry but women really do need to STOP acting like whores and imitating people like Paris Hilton. What happened to Girl power and women fighting for equality like in the 1990s?

You want to stop being treated like trash...stop acting like it.

larafan25
08-05-11, 01:37
Girl power? Lara Croft makes me think girl power.

Spice Girls make me think girl power.

Act like a whore? How do you act whoreish? Wouldn't you need to be promiscuous to act like a whore? Thus actually being a whore? :/

Encore
08-05-11, 01:42
Wouldn't you need to be promiscuous to act like a whore? Thus actually being a whore? :/

Careful friend, being promiscuous isn't the same as being a whore. ;)

Ward Dragon
08-05-11, 01:42
Act like a whore? How do you act whoreish? Wouldn't you need to be promiscuous to act like a whore? Thus actually being a whore? :/

This is a quote from the article:

The SlutWalk Toronto website says the aim of the movement is to "re-appropriate" the world slut.

"Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work," it says.Surely that's the definition of prostitution? I was going to let that go because it seems irrelevant to the discussion of women being cautious (which I think is a more important issue) but since it got brought up I had to ask XD

larafan25
08-05-11, 01:46
Careful friend, being promiscuous isn't the same as being a whore. ;)

I always thought a whore was just having many sex partners. However apparently it implies you are a prostitute. :/

This is a quote from the article:

Surely that's the definition of prostitution? I was going to let that go because it seems irrelevant to the discussion of women being cautious (which I think is a more important issue) but since it got brought up I had to ask XD

Yes, looks like it. Of course prostitutes shouldn't be raped either. Well nobody should be raped.

However this prostitution thing adds a new dynamic to the discussion I think. As well as the argument of what should be worn.

Lara's Nemesis
08-05-11, 01:53
Complicated issue because of course everyone should be free to dress however they want, but if a male or female dresses in a way that stands out from the crowd then there is always a chance that you will attract the wrong kind of person in this world.

Ward Dragon
08-05-11, 02:01
Yes, looks like it. Of course prostitutes shouldn't be raped either. Well nobody should be raped.

Well yeah, that's why I didn't originally think it was relevant and wasn't going to comment on it until it got brought up. Prostitution is a rather dangerous profession. Considering that it's illegal here, it's pretty much impossible to separate prostitution from drug use and other highly dangerous illegal activities that usually occur in the same places, not to mention the men who visit prostitutes are by definition already willing to break one law so they're probably willing to break other laws as well.

However I'm guessing nobody actually wants to be a crack whore and they'd get out of the situation if they knew how to, so I think that's a totally separate issue from the clothing discussion. You can't just tell someone to stop being poor or addicted to drugs so it would require a lot more in terms of programs to reach out and help people. The clothing issue is more about whether comparatively rich women should feel any responsibility to take other people's reactions into account when they choose what clothes to wear.

Encore
08-05-11, 02:07
"Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work,"


IMO, if prostitution was legal then they would be right in including it in this argument. But it isn't, and it's a dangerous illegal practice at that, which means that (as heartless as this may sound) society has no obligation to make it safer for those who choose to practice it.

The worst part is, prostitution is one of the forms in which slavery persists in the modern world - many women are FORCED to do it. And it's (for me) one of the ultimate symbols of the oppression of women. It's absolutely appalling that they seem to find it ok.

PS: A quote within a quote. QUOTECEPTION!

Ward Dragon
08-05-11, 02:13
IMO, if prostitution was legal then they would be right in including it in this argument. But it isn't, and it's a dangerous illegal practice at that, which means that (as heartless as this may sound) society has no obligation to make it safer for those who choose to practice it.

The worst part is, prostitution is one of the forms in which slavery persists in the modern world - many women are FORCED to do it. And it's (for me) one of the ultimate symbols of the oppression of women. It's absolutely appalling that they seem to find it ok.

PS: A quote within a quote. QUOTECEPTION!

Yes, I completely agree :tmb: I think if prostitution was legal it would be easier to regulate (and therefore safer) so I wouldn't object to it being legalized but I still don't like the idea of it.

Also, quoteception? :vlol: :D

patriots88888
08-05-11, 02:30
The way I see it, if someone is predisposed to committing rape they are going to do it regardless of the victim's attire (or lack thereof). I've always considered rape to be more about anger/hatred/control issues/disorders and less to do with sexually driven desires (of course, I'm sure there are instances where that it is the case, just not as common)... but I'm no expert on it nor do I care to be. Just saying that not all victims of rape are scantily/prevocatively clothed. I'm wondering the manner in which he had this discussion because I while I can see this clothing issue as a contributing factor, it's certainly not the only one. I'm also wondering if he got that point across with these students because the resulting reaction and these marches/slutwalks (or whatever you wish to call them) seem a bit over-the-top to me... they seem to be out of anger/defiance than for any type of awareness/education purposes.

Amazing the effect/affect one man's words can have, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Tear
08-05-11, 03:22
:vlol: ..."Slutwalks"?

I'd attend.

TRLegendLuver
08-05-11, 03:41
My view on prostitution is this: Prostitution is not the world's oldest profession, but the world's oldest way of abusing women. Even if the women are voluntary to this. They've either been so abused by something in their life, they feel the only way to make themselves better is to sell their bodies. It also makes them feel like it's all their good for.

cezy rockeru
08-05-11, 11:54
Oh Dear Lord. :vlol:

Super Badnik
08-05-11, 12:04
Surely that's the definition of prostitution? I was going to let that go because it seems irrelevant to the discussion of women being cautious (which I think is a more important issue) but since it got brought up I had to ask XDI don't deny prostitution is a bad thing, but putting any amount of blame on prostitutes for being raped is also closed minded. Purely for the reason nobody chooses to be a prostitute. And also because theres a diiference between agreeing to sex and refusing sex regardless if money is involved.

scremanie
08-05-11, 12:08
I'm guessing Lara is their poster child?

the ancient
08-05-11, 12:10
If it there was no prostitiution there would be a lot more raping I think.

trXD
08-05-11, 12:28
I think this is terribly close-minded.

Women are allowed to dress however the hell they want.

She was just being absolutely honest, if you dress provocotivley you are more likely to get raped, therefor it is much safer not to. Women shouldn't be stopped from doing this but they should be warned.

Apathetic
08-05-11, 12:29
These are obviously aimed at me. Oh well, haters gonna hate.

Chocola teapot
08-05-11, 12:34
You go, Gurls.

larson n natla
08-05-11, 12:39
I don't agree that young men and women should be forced to dress in a certain way but then I do agree that less people would be raped if we all went around in sumo-suits etc.

The fact is that it isn't going to happen and that you can not blame a victim of rape if they say the words no.

cezy rockeru
08-05-11, 12:40
i'm guessing lara is their poster child?

trl.

jackles
08-05-11, 13:55
Hmmm if you are a sex worker that still does not entitle anyone to beat you up.


It wasn't long back when a husband could force his wife to have sex because he effectively owned her.There was no such thing as marital rape.

I can still remember when women wouldn't report rapes because of the attitude of the police. This attitude changed in the 80's after a programme about the Thames Valley Police showed aggressive questioning of a victim that caused outrage.

When I was a young teen I was very slim with a rather well developed bust. I was assaulted by men on several occasions. One time on my first day or work in small shop the owner touched my chest 'accidentally'..I walked out. I never wore low tops or short skirts. Infact i changed my whole look eventually, cropped my hair, loads of tattoos...anything other than look girly.

So I can kind of see where they are coming from.

Dennis's Mom
08-05-11, 13:58
She was just being absolutely honest, if you dress provocotivley you are more likely to get raped, therefor it is much safer not to. Women shouldn't be stopped from doing this but they should be warned.

No, that's not what I meant. I meant that clothing sends a message. If you're out there wearing something that announces you're sexually available, then you're likely to get that kind of response.

It's hypocritical of women to think they're exempt from this. We constantly label people according to their mode of dress. Five will get you ten, most of you would call this person Goth (http://www.coolgadgetconcept.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/how-to-be-the-coolest-goth-2.jpg). This guy's (http://metalheadguys.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/stinking-metalhead.jpg) a metal head. These (http://www.thereformedbroker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Nerd-econ.gif) are nerds. And for each of them, we have characteristics we assign them based on those judgments. It's simply human nature.

You can't control who's out there and putting out a blanket message that you want attention when you have no control over who gets the message is simply a bad idea. You don't flash your wad of cash in a crowd either because you don't know the sort of people in that crowd. I feel the same way about dressing provocatively. You just don't know whose getting the message.

We're glossing over patriot88888's very valid point about rape: it is not about sex. It's about violence and power. The idea that "if there were more prostitution there would be less rape" is laughable. Rape is a violent act, not a sexual one, which goes back to my point about messages: do you really want to potentially piss off someone by sending the wrong signals? Men who rape are not going to be swayed by the subtlety of "female empowerment." In fact, it probably is the first step to pissing them off.

It's not a question of who's right or wrong because clearly any one who attacks a woman is wrong. However, it's interesting that women will take all sorts of measures to reduce their odds of being attacked, but this is simply out of bounds.

(Frankly, I have issues with the whole idea that wandering around in a revealing outfit is empowering to women. I wouldn't be surprised if the men who thought up that idea were laughing in a room somewhere. :confused:)

domina
08-05-11, 14:25
I don't follow the correlation between dressing like a "slut" and being the victim of rape, as the quoted police officer is suggesting, and I think the goal of this walk is (or should be) to correct that sort of misinformed opinion, not so much that women should be able to wear or do whatever they want. Although I'm sure for some that's a part of it as well.

I remember in college and high school seminars on the subject of sexual violence, it was always emphasized that the majority of the time, women are raped by someone they know. The statistic from RAINN is 2/3 assaults are committed by someone the victim knows. Not to say this doesn't happen, but rapists often aren't thinking "That girl over there is hot and showing cleavage. I'm going to have sex with her whether she wants it or not." Rape isn't about sexual desire. It's about violence and power. So for a police officer to suggest that sexual violence occurs because of what a woman is wearing is inappropriate at the very least.

Ward Dragon
08-05-11, 17:02
I don't deny prostitution is a bad thing, but putting any amount of blame on prostitutes for being raped is also closed minded. Purely for the reason nobody chooses to be a prostitute. And also because theres a diiference between agreeing to sex and refusing sex regardless if money is involved.

I agree that 100% of the blame in all rapes goes to the rapist. That still doesn't change the fact that prostitution is a very dangerous profession and more needs to be done to help women in that situation to get out of it.

I think it confuses the issue to combine that with what other women choose to wear who are rich enough to avoid things like prostitution. Both issues deserve to be discussed, but I think they are different enough that they should be discussed as separate issues.

The statistic from RAINN is 2/3 assaults are committed by someone the victim knows.

How do they define who the victim knows? I mean obviously if someone randomly gets attacked on the street by a total stranger that would be in the unknown category. But what about a situation where for example a woman goes to a bar, spends a few hours talking to a guy, and then goes home with him? Does that count as someone the woman knows as far as that statistic goes?



On a somewhat different but related topic, someone posted this blog earlier and I wanted to ask about it:


If women avoid doing all the things that they’re supposed to avoid doing in the name of “common sense” measures to avoid rape – if women don’t let themselves ever be alone in a room with a man they don’t know well, if they never walk alone at night or on isolated roads, if they never go to an empty bus station or subway terminal and never ride in an empty train car, and never walk alone in a public garage, never drink in a bar alone, never get drunk at a frat party (actually, better not attend the frat party in the first place!), and of course never wear tight clothing, etc etc…


If a woman actually obeyed all those “common sense” rules, it would be an awful lot like a life lived under house arrest, wouldn’t it?


http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2004/01/12/avoiding-rape-and-common-sense/


If none of those things are reasonable then what can a woman do to protect herself? Or is there nothing we can do and we're completely at the mercy of the would-be rapists? I mean this as a serious question (if there are other proven ways for women to protect themselves then I want to hear about it).

domina
08-05-11, 17:29
How do they define who the victim knows? I mean obviously if someone randomly gets attacked on the street by a total stranger that would be in the unknown category. But what about a situation where for example a woman goes to a bar, spends a few hours talking to a guy, and then goes home with him? Does that count as someone the woman knows as far as that statistic goes?


The statistic references the 2005 National Crime Victimization Survey, which is available for download here (http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/22746). I'm about to head off to work so I don't have time to fully read that, but I'm sure it better defines that ambiguity. RAINN breaks it down like this:

Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate.
7% are a relative.
link (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders)

I would say that the scenario you're describing would probably be put in the "acquaintance" category.

Minty Mouth
08-05-11, 17:30
On a somewhat different but related topic, someone posted this blog earlier and I wanted to ask about it:




http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2004/01/12/avoiding-rape-and-common-sense/


If none of those things are reasonable then what can a woman do to protect herself? Or is there nothing we can do and we're completely at the mercy of the would-be rapists? I mean this as a serious question (if there are other proven ways for women to protect themselves then I want to hear about it).
I wouldn't listen to anything that blogger says: she's infamous on the net for being a bit of a rampant feminist and not a very good one at that.

The way she manipulates that example is comparable to if she had said manipulated the parallel example (which she doesn't manipulate). Her rant on how you have to expand the 'don't go to a guy's hotel room' into all of those other things is the same as if she had expanded the gunman example to say you should have to be almost under house arrest in the US because anybody could be carrying a gun.

Of course women shouldn't stay at home like she seems to think the analogy is suggesting. It's dishonest of her to expand one side of the example like that and ignore the other, neglecting to use her common sense to set up a straw man argument as she always does.

IceColdLaraCroft
08-05-11, 17:32
Rape is never about a guy being turned on by a woman. It's about power. It's not really about sex.

There are cases of senior citizen women being raped. Which boggles the mind.

Sometimes it's that the man in question is transferring his aggression from one woman to another.

Avalon SARL
08-05-11, 17:37
I agree and disagree with this

However people are free to wear whatever they want, still sometimes they share a very little percentage of the guilt;that is why I am in favor of the Religious point of view on clothes; nothing too much to reveal, just moderate clothing :), no need to be overly erotic, no need to be too much hiding within your pajamas as well :p

Encore
08-05-11, 17:52
The way I see it, if someone is predisposed to committing rape they are going to do it regardless of the victim's attire (or lack thereof). I've always considered rape to be more about anger/hatred/control issues/disorders and less to do with sexually driven desires (of course, I'm sure there are instances where that it is the case, just not as common)... but I'm no expert on it nor do I care to be.

I don't have any proof but I always heard that most rapes are casual, not planned. I.E., there isn't necessarily an existing predisposition to do it.

Anyway I'm sure everyone knows clothes aren't the only factor involved in such crimes, in fact it's probably not even an important one. However, I for one wouldn't want to risk testing the myth by walking around with a belt as a skirt around a bar at 4 am. :ton:

Super Badnik
08-05-11, 17:58
I agree that 100% of the blame in all rapes goes to the rapist. That still doesn't change the fact that prostitution is a very dangerous profession and more needs to be done to help women in that situation to get out of it.

I think it confuses the issue to combine that with what other women choose to wear who are rich enough to avoid things like prostitution. Both issues deserve to be discussed, but I think they are different enough that they should be discussed as separate issues.I do agree that prostitution in itself is another serious issue that needs to be dealt with. But the rape of prostitutes, in my opinion, should be treated just the same as the rape of anybody else. Assuming our definition of rape is forced sex. Bearing in mind it is not uncommon to hear of rape happening to other women who, while not prostitutes, are possibly open to sex (night life etc).

Ward Dragon
08-05-11, 18:46
The statistic references the 2005 National Crime Victimization Survey, which is available for download here (http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/22746). I'm about to head off to work so I don't have time to fully read that, but I'm sure it better defines that ambiguity. RAINN breaks it down like this:


link (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders)

I would say that the scenario you're describing would probably be put in the "acquaintance" category.

I can't figure out that site :o

In any case that's what I thought too (that such situations would fall under the acquaintance category). If I understood the RAINN site correctly, it made a very important point that I agree with about this statistic, which is that women should be aware that not all rapists are random thugs on the street and that women should be very careful around someone they don't know very well. Of course that won't completely eliminate the possibility of someone being raped but I think anything that lowers the chances is a good thing.

The site also said the rate of sexual assaults has dropped quite a lot since the '90's, which is excellent news. I think it's a combination of women being more aware and careful, and also of society in general being more vehemently against the rapists (which increases the likelihood of a rape victim going to the police and of a jury convicting a rapist).

I don't have any proof but I always heard that most rapes are casual, not planned. I.E., there isn't necessarily an existing predisposition to do it.

Anyway I'm sure everyone knows clothes aren't the only factor involved in such crimes, in fact it's probably not even an important one. However, I for one wouldn't want to risk testing the myth by walking around with a belt as a skirt around a bar at 4 am. :ton:

Exactly :p

I do agree that prostitution in itself is another serious issue that needs to be dealt with. But the rape of prostitutes, in my opinion, should be treated just the same as the rape of anybody else. Assuming our definition of rape is forced sex. Bearing in mind it is not uncommon to hear of rape happening to other women who, while not prostitutes, are possibly open to sex (night life etc).

I don't think anybody said rape doesn't count for prostitutes (at the very least I certainly never said that). I've simply said that certain things increase the likelihood of being raped and therefore I don't want to put myself in those situations.

Like I said before, prostitution being illegal here means that by default prostitutes are dealing with a lot of men who are willing to break the law and prostitution is also usually heavily involved with other dangerous things like drugs as well.

That means that prostitutes are more likely to get robbed, raped or murdered and less likely to go to the police for help since they're breaking the law themselves and probably don't want to risk going to jail.

That's why I think prostitution is a much more complicated issue that is quite different from the issue of what law-abiding women should or shouldn't do to reduce the chances of being raped.

I mean, for the law-abiding women I'm assuming it's enough to have a discussion of statistics and whether or not it's worth it to avoid things that are perceived to be risky and then they'll make their own decision based on that. On the other hand, for prostitutes they probably need a lot more help like drug rehab and a way to get a legitimate job so they can get away from that life.

Super Badnik
08-05-11, 19:39
I don't think anybody said rape doesn't count for prostitutes (at the very least I certainly never said that). I've simply said that certain things increase the likelihood of being raped and therefore I don't want to put myself in those situations.

Like I said before, prostitution being illegal here means that by default prostitutes are dealing with a lot of men who are willing to break the law and prostitution is also usually heavily involved with other dangerous things like drugs as well.

That means that prostitutes are more likely to get robbed, raped or murdered and less likely to go to the police for help since they're breaking the law themselves and probably don't want to risk going to jail.

That's why I think prostitution is a much more complicated issue that is quite different from the issue of what law-abiding women should or shouldn't do to reduce the chances of being raped.

I mean, for the law-abiding women I'm assuming it's enough to have a discussion of statistics and whether or not it's worth it to avoid things that are perceived to be risky and then they'll make their own decision based on that. On the other hand, for prostitutes they probably need a lot more help like drug rehab and a way to get a legitimate job so they can get away from that life.No, I didn't think anybody did say it didn't count for prostitutes, maybe there were some wires crossed over prostitutes being a seperate issue. I suppose the answer with this is to legalise prostitution to make rape much less likely to happen and to make it easier for prostitutes to come foward if it does. Obviously though thats not to say prostitution should be accepted as a part of life.

voltz
08-05-11, 21:24
Prostitution = Aids.

Keep it illegal.

Super Badnik
08-05-11, 22:04
Prostitution = Aids.

Keep it illegal.Come up with a way of enforcing it effectively then we'll talk. ;)

voltz
08-05-11, 22:13
Sure.

Infect someone = get castrated. :D

patriots88888
08-05-11, 22:13
I don't have any proof but I always heard that most rapes are casual, not planned. I.E., there isn't necessarily an existing predisposition to do it.

As I stated, I'm not an expert on it but it would seem to me that there can be given that I see it in the same light as any other violent, serious crime I.E. homicide. Would it be fair to say that there are those who are predisposed to such violent acts and crimes, such as serial murderers and even possibly serial rapists?

Anyway I'm sure everyone knows clothes aren't the only factor involved in such crimes, in fact it's probably not even an important one. However, I for one wouldn't want to risk testing the myth by walking around with a belt as a skirt around a bar at 4 am. :ton:

And if you had bothered to quote my entire post I did mention that I can see it as a possible contributing factor, just not the only one. :p I never said I disagreed with the notion that exercising a bit of common sense can go a long way.

Uzi master
09-05-11, 00:37
IMO, if prostitution was legal then they would be right in including it in this argument. But it isn't, and it's a dangerous illegal practice at that, which means that (as heartless as this may sound) society has no obligation to make it safer for those who choose to practice it.

The worst part is, prostitution is one of the forms in which slavery persists in the modern world - many women are FORCED to do it. And it's (for me) one of the ultimate symbols of the oppression of women. It's absolutely appalling that they seem to find it ok.

PS: A quote within a quote. QUOTECEPTION!

Prostitution isn't illegal in Canada, you know;)

organized prostitution is illegal, but one person without any pimps or whatever is legal.

larafan25
09-05-11, 00:39
Sure.

Infect someone = get castrated. :D

Chemically.

Doby
09-05-11, 11:01
Women should wear whatever they want to wear. I think society has put in our minds that dressing "low class" is bad. Where I live it's always hot out and the girls here wear shorts. I always wear shorts, converses, and a tank top. That's my typical outfit. I once heard these girls (I'm guessing they weren't from Puerto Rico) say, "Oh my God! Their shorts are so short! They look like :cen:". I gave them a dirty look.

Apathetic
09-05-11, 11:03
I gave them a dirty look.

Giirl! :ohn: You show em.

nick styger
09-05-11, 11:13
it's very difficult keeping my inner dog on a lead nowadays. (He has a tendency to slobber). I just try not to look.

scoopy_loopy
09-05-11, 11:25
it's very difficult keeping my inner dog on a lead nowadays. (He has a tendency to slobber). I just try not to look.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkg0anPfnM1qb8q4h.gif

interstellardave
09-05-11, 11:56
Dennis' Mom makes the very point these women are trying to fight... that dressing a certain way can make you a victim. She's right that it sends a message... if I see a woman wearing a miniskirt and low-cut top I'm going to be way more likely to think sexual thoughts than if she were wearing snow pants and a parka, but I still have options on how to deal with that. Even if she's specifically looking to attract a man I'd have to live with the fact that I might not be the man she's looking to attract.

So I would have SEX thoughts, not RAPE thoughts. Let's face it, no matter how turned on a women can make a man it is still his responsibility to deal with it in a civilized manner. He can try to engage her in conversation and perhaps hook up with her that way... or he can just move on if she's not interested--he can go home and take care of his excitement himself. The fact is that men CAN control themselves; if they can't then that's entirely their fault.

patriots88888
09-05-11, 12:09
Dennis' Mom makes the very point these women are trying to fight... that dressing a certain way can make you a victim. She's right that it sends a message... if I see a woman wearing a miniskirt and low-cut top I'm going to be way more likely to think sexual thoughts than if she were wearing snow pants and a parka, but I still have options on how to deal with that. Even if she's specifically looking to attract a man I'd have to live with the fact that I might not be the man she's looking to attract.

So I would have SEX thoughts, not RAPE thoughts. Let's face it, no matter how turned on a women can make a man it is still his responsibility to deal with it in a civilized manner. He can try to engage her in conversation and perhaps hook up with her that way... or he can just move on if she's not interested--he can go home and take care of his excitement himself. The fact is that men CAN control themselves; if they can't then that's entirely their fault.

Rape isn't as much about sexual desires as it is about having a sense of control and power over the victim... it's an act of agression. That is why many of us disagree with the notion that dress is an important and determining factor in this.

interstellardave
09-05-11, 12:17
Rape isn't as much about sexual desires as it is about having a sense of control and power over the victim... it's an act of agression. That is why many of us disagree with the notion that dress is an important and determining factor in this.

I know that, but saying that doesn't sink in with the "men get excited and can't control themselves" crowd. Thus the aim of my post was to say that I, as a man, fully understand that women can drive us crazy sometimes--and, yes, the way they dress can get us really hot; BUT that still doesn't matter.

I'm fighting on the oppositions' home ground, as it were... besides, it is about power but isn't that the power to ignore a womans "no" answer? That woman could very well be a woman that the man wants to have sex with; the 80 year old grandmother example notwithstanding. I think "date rape" might fall into my catagory...

nick styger
09-05-11, 12:18
sacrificial lambs on the altar of industry.

patriots88888
09-05-11, 12:27
I know that, but saying that doesn't sink in with the "men get excited and can't control themselves" crowd. Thus the aim of my post was to say that I, as a man, fully understand that women can drive us crazy sometimes--and, yes, the way they dress can get us really hot; BUT that still doesn't matter.

I'm fighting on the oppositions' home ground, as it were...

I see what you're saying now. Yea, some women may think in those terms only. It is funny (not literally) that we seem to be overlooking the fact that rape isn't strictly limited to females. Like male prisons for example, 'you are going to be my bitch' and that sorta thing which does help substantiate that it is more an act of aggression; seeking that power and control over the victim.

Dennis's Mom
09-05-11, 13:19
I know that, but saying that doesn't sink in with the "men get excited and can't control themselves" crowd. Thus the aim of my post was to say that I, as a man, fully understand that women can drive us crazy sometimes--and, yes, the way they dress can get us really hot; BUT that still doesn't matter.

I'm fighting on the oppositions' home ground, as it were... besides, it is about power but isn't that the power to ignore a womans "no" answer? That woman could very well be a woman that the man wants to have sex with; the 80 year old grandmother example notwithstanding. I think "date rape" might fall into my catagory...

That's my point. You can't control the message your outfit can be sending nor who gets the message. A normal guy will take "no" and go home disappointed and maybe miffed. A man pre-disposed to violence might get really, really pissed at what he considered to be mixed signals.

Which is why I think it's safer to put out a less provocative message. Women can march all they want, but thousands of years of human fashion will not be undone overnight. Clothing absolutely creates an impression. Do I think provocative dress is the reason women get raped? No. Do I think it could raise the odds? Yes, which I why I think it's safer in certain situations to control your message.

(I could segway into why I wish women felt empowered by being people and not dependent on a man's perception of them as sexual objects to feel empowered. TBH, I fail to see how controlling men through the promise of sex is progressing the cause of feminism. That's about as "old school "as it gets.)

lunavixen
09-05-11, 13:35
As far as I'm aware people take a very serious attitude to rape. I can't speak for the USA or Canada but here I've never heard the victim being blamed. :confused:

it's more subtle than anything, it's actually against the law (well in australia it is) for the victim to be blamed for the crime especially in the case of sexual assault, and there are actually legal definitions that constitute 'consent', if someone is excessively drunk, they cannot be determined to be giving consent (i thinkt he level is twice the legal limit so 0.10 or higher), there are also legal protections for consent in those mentally unstable, or who have mental deficiencies etc., it's part of the Crime Act 1900 (Cth) [it's over 1000 pages long and i'm way too tired to sift through it to find the relevent sections]

nick styger
09-05-11, 13:46
but why do women feel the need to dress provocatively?

Dennis's Mom
09-05-11, 14:15
Honey, that's another topic entirely. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/LisaB1138/smilies/13.gif

interstellardave
09-05-11, 15:19
but why do women feel the need to dress provocatively?

Why do peacocks proudly display their feathers? To attract a mate. That's timeless behavior...

nick styger
09-05-11, 15:21
but we are'nt peacocks

lara c. fan
09-05-11, 15:23
but we are'nt peacocks

The same basic desires are there. Most humans want to attract a mate in order to continue life. It's hard-coded into pretty much every animal.

SamReeves
09-05-11, 15:25
but why do women feel the need to dress provocatively?

Why does the peacock spread all his tailfeathers?

Not all that different with human beings. :cln:

nick styger
09-05-11, 15:26
that's not what I mean

SamReeves
09-05-11, 15:27
that's not what I mean

Would you like to have somebody draw a picture for you?

interstellardave
09-05-11, 15:28
that's not what I mean

Well that's what it boils down to... now, since we really aren't peacocks it is more complicated... and that's what causes confusion and trouble sometimes. Perhaps the woman just wants the attention; to feel desired without the actual "mating" afterwards. Nonetheless attraction is the key.

nick styger
09-05-11, 15:29
I'm trying to ask a serious question here and all I get are glib answers......it's the 21 st century not cave man times any more.

nick styger
09-05-11, 15:31
Well that's what it boils down to... now, since we really aren't peacocks it is more complicated... and that's what causes confusion and trouble sometimes. Perhaps the woman just wants the attention; to feel desired without the actual "mating" afterwards. Nonetheless attraction is the key.

thank you. That's what I mean. But some do it ALL the time......and then don't like the attention they get.

interstellardave
09-05-11, 15:34
thank you. That's what I mean. But some do it ALL the time......and then don't like the attention they get.

Well unwanted attention (groping and such) would be wrong on the mans' part. I hate when women dress like that and then get mad simply 'cause your looking at them, though. Hey, if you're going to wear skimpy clothes I'M looking... I may not be the handsome stud that you want looking at you but it's collateral damage, babe! :p

SamReeves
09-05-11, 16:00
Well unwanted attention (groping and such) would be wrong on the mans' part. I hate when women dress like that and then get mad simply 'cause your looking at them, though. Hey, if you're going to wear skimpy clothes I'M looking... I may not be the handsome stud that you want looking at you but it's collateral damage, babe! :p

Same here. If a chick wears a thong to the beach, I'm looking at your butt! :p

Dennis's Mom
09-05-11, 16:13
Why do peacocks proudly display their feathers? To attract a mate. That's timeless behavior...

*hackles go up*

And every woman out there who doesn't have cleavage down to her belly-button isn't trying to attract a mate? (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQo2yhYs4fwgfrlVbu6rIpBmj3C79Sia BRUCYiQBgiMeiZoCP7V) Really? Women are so unimaginative that the only idea they've got in their head to "catch a mate" is to dress slutty? And the only redeeming factor they're looking for in a male is his ability to respond to her "come hither" garb?

I feel about this concept the way I felt about I felt about Taj El-Din Hilaly's comment that cat's are going to eat meat left out, basically saying that men are less smart than cats (because my cat has been taught not to jump onto the counter.) It was such a grossly insulting statement.

We're not talking about women wanting to look attractive. I'm attractive every day. There's a difference between wanting to be considered attractive and deliberately trying to put sexual thoughts about yourself in someone else's head.

Ward Dragon
09-05-11, 16:14
That's my point. You can't control the message your outfit can be sending nor who gets the message. A normal guy will take "no" and go home disappointed and maybe miffed. A man pre-disposed to violence might get really, really pissed at what he considered to be mixed signals.

Which is why I think it's safer to put out a less provocative message. Women can march all they want, but thousands of years of human fashion will not be undone overnight. Clothing absolutely creates an impression. Do I think provocative dress is the reason women get raped? No. Do I think it could raise the odds? Yes, which I why I think it's safer in certain situations to control your message.

(I could segway into why I wish women felt empowered by being people and not dependent on a man's perception of them as sexual objects to feel empowered. TBH, I fail to see how controlling men through the promise of sex is progressing the cause of feminism. That's about as "old school "as it gets.)

I completely agree with this. If I was on a jury in a rape case I would not take the victim's clothing into account at all when deciding the verdict. However I do feel like it's unsafe to dress too provocatively especially in places like bars. As you said, there's no telling whose attention I might catch and I feel safer simply avoiding that whole situation.

I mean, we teach children not to talk to strangers, avoid free candy, don't go with the nice man looking for his lost puppy, etc. Is it the child's fault for being kidnapped? Hell no. However kidnapping still happens so we try to do everything we can to reduce the chances, which includes teaching the child to be careful and avoid potentially dangerous situations. I don't think that stops being valid once the child grows up into an adult. There are still dangerous and totally unfair situations, so it's still a good idea to be careful and not trust strangers.

Dennis's Mom
09-05-11, 16:28
Exactly. It isn't you can't ever do it. If you're going to a party where you know everyone, if you're out with your boyfriend---there are circumstances that may mitigate the risk.

But heading out to a bar with a bunch of strangers? That seems far riskier.

dexter void
09-05-11, 17:15
Grunge band 7 Year Bitch from Seattle said it best with their song "Dead Men Don't Rape"

You ain't got the right tellin' me i'm uptight
And i'm not obligated to give in 'cuz you're frustrated
No, my revenge is death, 'cuz you deserve the best
And i'm not turned on by your masculinity

Dead men don't rape

I don't have pity not a single tear
For those who get joy from a woman's fear
I'd rather get a gun and just blow you away
Then you'll learn first hand

Dead men don't rape

You're getting sucked into society's sickest
Don't go out alone you might get raped
But not by a dead man 'cuz

Dead men don't rape

You ain't got the right tellin' me i'm uptight

Dead men don't rape

Shirley_Manson
10-05-11, 18:54
Just remember girls, when you dress provocatively (in a black latex suit like Lara), and when you're walking on the docks of the River Thames at night, always bring your guns, uzis, shotguns and assault rifles.

interstellardave
10-05-11, 18:58
*hackles go up*

And every woman out there who doesn't have cleavage down to her belly-button isn't trying to attract a mate? (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQo2yhYs4fwgfrlVbu6rIpBmj3C79Sia BRUCYiQBgiMeiZoCP7V) Really? Women are so unimaginative that the only idea they've got in their head to "catch a mate" is to dress slutty? And the only redeeming factor they're looking for in a male is his ability to respond to her "come hither" garb?

I feel about this concept the way I felt about I felt about Taj El-Din Hilaly's comment that cat's are going to eat meat left out, basically saying that men are less smart than cats (because my cat has been taught not to jump onto the counter.) It was such a grossly insulting statement.

We're not talking about women wanting to look attractive. I'm attractive every day. There's a difference between wanting to be considered attractive and deliberately trying to put sexual thoughts about yourself in someone else's head.

You take it personally... I only said women who do that do it to attract--and it DOES. I think that's pretty obvious. It doesn't mean every women does that, or that any woman needs to. But some do; it doesn't matter if you're not one of them.

Dennis's Mom
11-05-11, 11:56
*sigh* Agreed. But I think there's waaaaay more going on and much of it is this idea of "sex=power", an idea marketed by those able to profit from it.