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IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 13:34
in Palestine, Syria & Lebanon.

Are they TRYING to start a war?!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13373006

"Palestinians are feeling emboldened and inspired by the uprisings elsewhere [in the Middle East]"

Israel and the Palestinians

Unconfirmed reports say several people have died, and dozens have been injured.

In one incident, thousands of Palestinian supporters from Syria entered the Golan Heights, Israel says.

Palestinians are marking the Nakba or Catastrophe, their term for the founding of the Israeli state in 1948.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled or were forced out of their homes in fighting after its creation.

Impetus
Clashes have been taking place at four separate border crossing points - in Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan Heights and the frontier with Lebanon.

The BBC's Jon Donnison, in the West Bank town of Ramallah, said this year's Nakba protests have been given impetus by the uprisings in countries across the Middle East and North Africa.

We are seeing here an Iranian provocation, on both the Syrian and the Lebanese frontiers, to try to exploit the Nakba day commemorations”


Our correspondent, at the Qalandiya checkpoint there, says there is a stand-off now, but dozens of Palestinians have been injured.

Palestinian protesters have been throwing stones at Israeli security forces, who have been firing tear gas and rubber bullets.

On the occupied Golan Heights, the Israeli military said it had only fired warning shots as a large number of protesters tried to breach a border fence near the village of Majdal Shams.

But unconfirmed reports said four people had been killed and at least 10 people injured.

Israel's army says this is a "serious" incursion. Brig Gen Yoav Mordechai said soldiers were still trying to control the crowds and that dozens of protesters had crossed.

The army has reportedly sealed off Majdal Shams and is carrying out house-to-house searches for infiltrators.

Israeli seized the strategic territory from Syria in 1967.

On the Lebanon-Israel border, a large number of protesters also approached the crossing with Israel.

Dozens of buses had brought protesters to the area under the rally slogan of "March for the return to Palestine".


Lebanese soldiers had fired in the air to try to disperse the protesters, who were chanting: "By our soul, our blood, we sacrifice ourselves for you, Palestine."

Gen Mordechai says Israeli troops fired as demonstrators began vandalising the fence. He confirmed casualties among protesters but could give no details on numbers.

Lebanese military officials said at least 10 people were injured in the shooting and one unconfirmed report said four people had been killed.

"We are seeing here an Iranian provocation, on both the Syrian and the Lebanese frontiers, to try to exploit the Nakba day commemorations," Gen Mordechai said.

A spokesman for the UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon called on both sides there to show restraint.

On the Israel-Gaza frontier, at the Erez border crossing, Israeli troops opened fire with tanks and machine guns, injuring dozens, Palestinian medical officials said.

Meanwhile in Tel Aviv, Israeli police are investigating whether an Arab-Israeli lorry driver deliberately ploughed into pedestrians, killing one Israeli man.

Weemanply109
15-05-11, 13:40
WTF? 2011 isn't a good year. :L

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 13:53
haha ! they are trying to do a revolution ! and yes this is the perfect time for it !
it's the 3rd palestinian revolution !
middle east got free now so ..

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 14:05
haha ! they are trying to do a revolution ! and yes this is the perfect time for it !
it's the 3rd palestinian revolution !
middle east got free now so ..This isn't comparable to the revolutions in Libya, Egypt etc whatsoever.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 14:12
This isn't comparable to the revolutions in Libya, Egypt etc whatsoever.

well the real reason of the revolution in libya and egypt and palestin is really tunisia ! tunisia started the revolution and she is the reason why middle east is dealing with revolutions . this is the site of the palestinian revolution
3rditifada.com

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 14:17
well the real reason of the revolution in libya and egypt and palestin is really tunisia ! tunisia started the revolution and she is the reason why middle east is dealing with revolutions . this is the site of the palestinian revolution
3rditifada.comAnd I'm saying clashes on Israeli borders (which are unfortunately quite common) are not comparable to people rising up and ousting dictators in North Africa. Completely different situations.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 14:18
And I'm saying clashes on Israeli borders (which are unfortunately quite common) are not comparable to people rising up and ousting dictators in North Africa. Completely different situations.

well, this revolution is to free palestin, not to kick out dictators

FloTheMachine
15-05-11, 14:19
WTF? 2011 isn't a good year. :L

Was thinking that... ._.

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 14:20
well, this revolution is to free palestin, not to kick out dictatorsIt's not a revolution.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 14:25
It's not a revolution.

no, it is
read about what they're going to do,
the whole middle east is going to participate ! they have a plan

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 14:36
no, it is
read about what they're going to do,
the whole middle east is going to participate ! they have a planLol, sure thing. :vlol:

Look up "revolution" in the dictionary.

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 14:36
It's not a revolution.

Palestinians are putting forth for the UN to recognize them as a state it's headed in that direction that they'd join in the Arab Spring.

What's happening today is the Nakba, but with all the revolutions happening in the ME tensions are high and for Israel to kill Syrians, Palestinians or anyone is like poking an angry tiger. They're asking for War. Not retaliation or attacks, but all out war with countries/neighbors that aren't exactly in a diplomatic mood.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 14:55
Lol, sure thing. :vlol:

Look up "revolution" in the dictionary.

:hea: :hea: agh i'm not ignorant! typically it's not ض revlution ( in her real meaning ) and it's not a war at the same time

cezy rockeru
15-05-11, 14:56
I expected that.

Cochrane
15-05-11, 15:27
I fully expect that Israel will get this under control again pretty sure. I also expect that they won't do that only using reasonable and fair methods.

All in all, the situation in Palestine cannot be compared to Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia or whatever. Notice how the protests in Tunisia, Egypt and so on did not have any serious anti-Israel or anti-US components to them. For most middle-east countries, the Palestine conflict has been really great. They could always say "Look how evil Israel is!" instead of trying to fix their own countries. This excuse is gone now, and we see the revolution.

The situation in Palestine and Israel is very different, though, because the people there can credibly argue that Israel's policies are at least part of their problems. I wouldn't be completely surprised if Israel had more direct influence on the lives of the people there than the very ineffective palestine governments.

Israel's behavior is, of course, questionable. Don't get me wrong, it's far better than what the terrorists do, but their policies seem to be aimed at quiet, not peace, and that's quite a difference. Either way, though, I doubt that the israeli government will truly care about protests from the palestinian side. They've had way too much of that before. And they definitely won't care about protests in Syria (which are likely a government plot to distract from the very bloody actions the government takes against protests in Syria right now).

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 15:36
to be honest , i feel that syria and the others ( the countrys who are fighting for freedom ) shouldn't participate now ! they must kick their dictators first

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 15:54
Palestinians are putting forth for the UN to recognize them as a state it's headed in that direction that they'd join in the Arab Spring.

What's happening today is the Nakba, but with all the revolutions happening in the ME tensions are high and for Israel to kill Syrians, Palestinians or anyone is like poking an angry tiger. They're asking for War. Not retaliation or attacks, but all out war with countries/neighbors that aren't exactly in a diplomatic mood.They're both looking for war by being violent in the first place. Don't try and paint this as if Israel are the aggressors.

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 16:09
They're both looking for war by being violent in the first place. Don't try and paint this as if Israel are the aggressors.

Killing people from other nations isn't being aggressive and asking for retaliation from a country that's already at war with itself?

scoopy_loopy
15-05-11, 16:22
Ugh, how lovely. :|

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 16:29
Killing people from other nations isn't being aggressive and asking for retaliation from a country that's already at war with itself?

today, israel killed many peoples, but palestinians did nothing but trying to get their freedom

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 17:16
Killing people from other nations isn't being aggressive and asking for retaliation from a country that's already at war with itself?They were provoked. Both sides are as bad as each other. People will try and spin it against Israel as usual but it just isn't like that.

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 17:20
They were provoked. Both sides are as bad as each other. People will try and spin it against Israel as usual but it just isn't like that.

And you make it seem as if Israel is innocent as can be.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 17:32
And you make it seem as if Israel is innocent as can be.

yeah :(
israel is never an innoncent country

Goose
15-05-11, 17:32
And you make it seem as if Israel is innocent as can be.

Nakba, is an annual mourning period through parts of the middle east, where everyone outside Israel spends there time thinking about the great catastrophe that is Israel's existance. Some 'mourners' got together, drove to Israel's borders, and tried to break in, there only intention is to destroy the state, some of them got shot after entering territory controled by the IDF.

Thats all that happened, not really shocking to me, but it is unfortunate. Im sure if a Mexican climbed a fence into california with the intention of destroying the government, US border forces wouldnt take to kindly either.

yeah :(
israel is never an innoncent country

When israel was reformed in 1948, thats the exact stance arabs took at the time, even before the state had come to official existance and had the chance to even do anything offensive.

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 17:35
And you make it seem as if Israel is innocent as can be.That's strange, considering that I said both sides are as bad as each other.

To be honest I think they're bad in different ways - Palestinians for constantly trying to cause havoc, however fruitful their attempts may be, and Israel for being heavy-handed sometimes.

daventry
15-05-11, 17:37
Im going to Israel for Two Weeks, so basically i will be far away from all that

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 17:38
Im going to Israel for Two Weeks, so basically i will be far away from all that

no you won't ! delay it ! for your security

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 17:39
no you won't ! delay it ! for your securityDepends where he's going. In all fairness, I doubt Israel is much more dangerous now than it normally is. The threat of terrorism is always there.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 17:40
Nakba, is an annual mourning period through parts of the middle east, where everyone outside Israel spends there time thinking about the great catastrophe that is Israel's existance. Some 'mourners' got together, drove to Israel's borders, and tried to break in, there only intention is to destroy the state, some of them got shot after entering territory controled by the IDF.

Thats all that happened, not really shocking to me, but it is unfortunate. Im sure if a Mexican climbed a fence into california with the intention of destroying the government, US border forces wouldnt take to kindly either.



When israel was reformed in 1948, thats the exact stance arabs took at the time, even before the state had come to official existance and had the chance to even do anything offensive.
i admit that arabs are the reason why israel is killing palestinians now, arabs had the chance to stop israelians but they prefered money :(

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 17:41
Depends where he's going. In all fairness, I doubt Israel is much more dangerous now than it normally is. The threat of terrorism is always there.

we never know what might happen

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 17:43
i admit that arabs are the reason why israel is killing palestinians now, arabs had the chance to stop israelians but they prefered money :(Eh? :confused:

You're acting as if this is some kind of one-sided thing. It's not. The only difference is Israel are a lot stronger and more advanced than everyone around them. If the Palestinians and the likes of Syria and Lebanon had the same military capabilities as Israel I doubt there'd be any Israelis left alive.

Goose
15-05-11, 17:46
i admit that arabs are the reason why israel is killing palestinians now, arabs had the chance to stop israelians but they prefered money :(

Well its abit more complex then arabs wanting money, but one generation agreed to something, that ended up coming into fruition during a next generations period, which will always cause problems.

Its about time the arab countries took a live and let live stance. Israel is a self reliant country in middle eastern terms, they dont want or need arab help, and if they are left alone they wont have any contact with countries around them, unless provoked.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 17:47
Well its abit more complex then arabs wanting money, but one generation agreed to something, that ended up coming into fruition during a next generations period, which will always cause problems.

Its about time the arab countries took a live and let live stance. Israel is a self reliant country in middle eastern terms, they dont want or need arab help, and if they are left alone they wont have any contact with countries around them, unless provoked.

you're right

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 17:49
Eh? :confused:

You're acting as if this is some kind of one-sided thing. It's not. The only difference is Israel are a lot stronger and more advanced than everyone around them. If the Palestinians and the likes of Syria and Lebanon had the same military capabilities as Israel I doubt there'd be any Israelis left alive.

yes it is a one-sided thing ! palestinians are suffering ! israel can leave them alone but they are jusy dog - headed ! now that egypt is going to stop contacting with israel, everything will change ! arabs goal is not to end something called israel, the main goal is to free palestin

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 17:52
yes it is a one-sided thing ! palestinians are suffering ! israel can leave them alone but they are jusy dog - headed ! now that egypt is going to stop contacting with israel, everything will change ! arabs goal is not to end something called israel, the main goal is to free israelIt really isn't.

Free Israel? From what? I don't believe Israelis are crying out to be freed. I get the impression the only thing they want is for their neighbors to stop attacking them.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 17:55
It really isn't.

Free Israel? From what? I don't believe Israelis are crying out to be freed. I get the impression the only thing they want is for their neighbors to stop attacking them.

i meant free palestine just a mistake :D
yeah, and just a point, why are their neighbors are attacking them ? don't you see the news or some sort of these things ? seriously i think you have no idea of what's happening in palestine :( killing, tourchering, taking kids

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 18:05
i meant free palestine just a mistake :D
yeah, and just a point, why are their neighbors are attacking them ? don't you see the news or some sort of these things ? seriously i think you have no idea of what's happening in palestine :( killing, tourchering, taking kidsBecause they want to see them wiped out?

Torturing and taking children? You're going to have to back that up with a source, especially the latter one.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 18:09
Because they want to see them wiped out?

Torturing and taking children? You're going to have to back that up with a source, especially the latter one.

google it , COME ON, everyone knows that ! just one advice, go to palestine and you won't see the light of the morning again :(
+ that happens everyday, so there are many sources looool
didn't you hear about mohammed dorra the child who was killed in the middle of the street with his father while he was crossing the streets? didn't you hear about what happened in 2008's december ? didn't you, didn't you...?

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 18:22
google it , COME ON, everyone knows that ! just one advice, go to palestine and you won't see the light of the morning again :(
+ that happens everyday, so there are many sources looool
didn't you hear about mohammed dorra the child who was killed in the middle of the street with his father while he was crossing the streets? didn't you hear about what happened in 2008's december ? didn't you, didn't you...?You still haven't provided any sources. "everyone knows that" or "google it" isn't good enough.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 18:24
You still haven't provided any sources. "everyone knows that" or "google it" isn't good enough.

the killing thig happens everyday, so how the hell i'm going to just give on or two sources ? no offense and i'm sorry for what i'm going to say but i think that you should educate yourself and know what's really happening in palestine !

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 18:26
In all honesty, all the dictators we have in the ME are nothing compared to Israel, believe it or not.

We are the ones dealing with it,not you... we live next to them and we seethings with our own eyes

We don't rely on any news, magazine or TV.

Everything happened in front of our own eyes

Palestinians, the normal people I mean, are helpless and poor.
all they own is stones in their hands.

Did youever pay a visit to the southern border of Lebanon.

come and see the difference.

Lebanese southern border is a whole mess, while just beside it, Israel has got amazing and outstanding meadows and fields where they plant almost any type of vegetable...
they have rivers running and artificial lakes

This:

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/32480_1308499628125_1099595493_30757480_7148101_n. jpg

While right next to this damned fence,you can see misery and ruined roadways and landmines in certain areas and stuff:cen:

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/12323_1288564049748_1099595493_30719099_4186871_n. jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/12323_1288564089749_1099595493_30719100_5157393_n. jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/12323_1288565449783_1099595493_30719103_152753_n.j pg

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/12323_1288565929795_1099595493_30719104_7667932_n. jpg

The reason is that Israel has not yet proved that it really wants peace in the lands.

their policy is eradicating anyone who oppses them

They differ in nothing from close minded terrorists spread everywhere

they and the terrorists are just two sides of the same coin

May GOD curse them both

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 18:27
In all honesty, all the dictators we have in the ME are nothing compared to Israel, believe it or not.

hello there ! hope everything if fine in lebanon ! peoples think that israelians are doing nothing in palestine !!!!!!!!!!! each day they kill tons of childrens and innoncent guys !

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 18:42
the killing thig happens everyday, so how the hell i'm going to just give on or two sources ? no offense and i'm sorry for what i'm going to say but i think that you should educate yourself and know what's really happening in palestine !Ah, the old "you don't agree with me so you're not educated".

*snip*This is why there'll never be peace in that part of the world. There are too many people like you on both sides of the conflict.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 18:46
Ah, the old "you don't agree with me so you're not educated".

This is why there'll never be peace in that part of the world. There are too many people like you on both sides of the conflict.

no no not like that ! i respect your point of view ! it's just that many peoples don't know about what's really happening in palestine because the media doesn't talk about it ! i can't post pictures here ! because they are very cruel ! take this for exemple ( go to wikipedia ) : gaza 2008 operation, they killed many peoples in one month

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 18:50
^ You're right MR TOMB...


@ MAD Tony :p what does *snip* mean...?

Well reason is occupation happens...
at points it must be dealt with and people should try find some different way out because the way it is, solving it, nothing useful is resulting; on the contrary it has led to very unforgivable sins...

Jihad being misinterpreted. war being shed everywhere and this is wrong.

I don't understand why can't they agree on peace :confused:

Sure it drives me crazy as why Israel turns Muslim mosques into stables and barns; I know Israel does very bad things,but the ones responsible for dealing with these matters (the leaders on both sides) are not wise people and are not apt to hold such a responsibility

It is too much for them

Ward Dragon
15-05-11, 18:52
I'm quite jaded so I think this will follow the same pattern as every other story about Israel -- people will be upset for a few days and accuse Israel of overreacting, more details will come out which imply that the dead people weren't so innocent, and then the story will be completely forgotten and never mentioned again as far as the media is concerned.

Palestinians, the normal people I mean, are helpless and poor.
all they own is stones in their hands.

Did youever pay a visit to the southern border of Lebanon.

come and see the difference.

Lebanese southern border is a whole mess, while just beside it, Israel has got amazing and outstanding meadows and fields where they plant almost any type of vegetable...
they have rivers running and artificial lakes


I'm going to draw an analogy here between the US and Mexico. Relatively speaking, there's a lot more poverty in Mexico compared to the US and that's why so many Mexican citizens want to live in the US instead. However, the difference has nothing to do with the land or even the natural resources. The difference has to do with the government.

Relatively speaking, the Mexican government is corrupt and doesn't help the Mexican people, which is why the US seems better to many of the people who have deal with poor living conditions in Mexico.

However the solution is not for all of the people in Mexico to move to the US or reclaim Texas as part of Mexico. The solution is to reform the Mexican government so that Mexico can be prosperous on its own.

I think the same is true for any of the countries bordering Israel. Conquering Israel won't magically solve all of the problems people are having right now. It will just spread the corruption into Israel as well and then Israel will be just as poor as the surrounding countries. Change needs to happen at home. The surrounding countries should be just as prosperous as Israel if only their governments weren't so corrupt.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 18:53
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205193_178351135547142_178350688880520_384702_7729 246_n.jpg
http://filaty.com/i/1105/98926/flcbqo.jpg
i live in an arabic country, and i know exactly what's happening ! some people don't know, and i don't blame to be honest ! the media is a very important way to sensitize people, on the other hand, it can ruin other's reputation

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 18:54
I'm quite jaded so I think this will follow the same pattern as every other story about Israel -- people will be upset for a few days and accuse Israel of overreacting, more details will come out which imply that the dead people weren't so innocent, and then the story will be completely forgotten and never mentioned again as far as the media is concerned.



I'm going to draw an analogy here between the US and Mexico. Relatively speaking, there's a lot more poverty in Mexico compared to the US and that's why so many Mexican citizens want to live in the US instead. However, the difference has nothing to do with the land or even the natural resources. The difference has to do with the government.

Relatively speaking, the Mexican government is corrupt and doesn't help the Mexican people, which is why the US seems better to many of the people who have deal with poor living conditions in Mexico.

However the solution is not for all of the people in Mexico to move to the US or reclaim Texas as part of Mexico. The solution is to reform the Mexican government so that Mexico can be prosperous on its own.

I think the same is true for any of the countries bordering Israel. Conquering Israel won't magically solve all of the problems people are having right now. It will just spread the corruption into Israel as well and then Israel will be just as poor as the surrounding countries. Change needs to happen at home. The surrounding countries should be just as prosperous as Israel if only their governments weren't so corrupt.

i know, but we just want the killing and the torturing thing to end ! live in palestine is a hell because of israel !

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 18:55
Well its abit more complex then arabs wanting money, but one generation agreed to something, that ended up coming into fruition during a next generations period, which will always cause problems.

Its about time the arab countries took a live and let live stance. Israel is a self reliant country in middle eastern terms, they dont want or need arab help, and if they are left alone they wont have any contact with countries around them, unless provoked.

Israel does the provoking. They've gone in and bombed Lebanon multiple times b/c they said someone had their people or that shots were fired from that country. It isn't the COUNTRY that's to blame is a group within that country. Instead of working with it's neighbors it treats them as if they are all the same people. And they aren't.

You still haven't provided any sources. "everyone knows that" or "google it" isn't good enough.

Oh come on. We've gone through enough of these threads that you should know where to look instead of this trite "show me proof" BS you always come up with.

There are many Arab countries that act on the behalf of Palestinians (NOT Hamas!) because they aren't allowed the basic necessities of life. Israel does not allow them humanitarian aid, and certainly not even things like Bicycles b/c they *could* be broken down and made into weapons.

Israel would even deny them the basic rights as a state. A state should be able to have airspace, but Israel has said that if Palestine were to become a state it would not allow them to have airspace. They would not even be allowed to create their own airports to fly out of the country.

Israel WANTS the Palestinians to suffer and wants them to be dependent on Israel its BS.

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 18:56
I'm quite jaded so I think this will follow the same pattern as every other story about Israel -- people will be upset for a few days and accuse Israel of overreacting, more details will come out which imply that the dead people weren't so innocent, and then the story will be completely forgotten and never mentioned again as far as the media is concerned.



I'm going to draw an analogy here between the US and Mexico. Relatively speaking, there's a lot more poverty in Mexico compared to the US and that's why so many Mexican citizens want to live in the US instead. However, the difference has nothing to do with the land or even the natural resources. The difference has to do with the government.

Relatively speaking, the Mexican government is corrupt and doesn't help the Mexican people, which is why the US seems better to many of the people who have deal with poor living conditions in Mexico.

However the solution is not for all of the people in Mexico to move to the US or reclaim Texas as part of Mexico. The solution is to reform the Mexican government so that Mexico can be prosperous on its own.

I think the same is true for any of the countries bordering Israel. Conquering Israel won't magically solve all of the problems people are having right now. It will just spread the corruption into Israel as well and then Israel will be just as poor as the surrounding countries. Change needs to happen at home. The surrounding countries should be just as prosperous as Israel if only their governments weren't so corrupt.




I agree,but you seem to miss the point

In Lebanon, we have many spectacular places with awesome architecture and landscape design.

the point I wanted to make was that there is a risk from rehabilitating that border because for any little problem,Israel will launch its missiles and KAboooooooooooommmmm

why risk millions of dollars over something we are not sure it is going to last for a couple of minutes or even a few years...

not worth it ;)

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 18:57
no no not like that ! i respect your point of view ! it's just that many peoples don't know about what's really happening in palestine because the media doesn't talk about it ! i can't post pictures here ! because they are very cruel ! take this for exemple ( go to wikipedia ) : gaza 2008 operation, they killed many peoples in one monthI think I trust the mainstream media (who are by no means pro-Israel) over some biased Arab source.

*snip*Nothing like a bit of anti-semitism. :rolleyes: If everyone in the Middle East is like you and Avalon SARL I have no hope for a peaceful resolution.


@ MAD Tony :p what does *snip* mean...?
It's basically just a way of quoting somebody without having all the text.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:00
I think I trust the mainstream media (who are by no means pro-Israel) over some biased Arab source.

Nothing like a bit of anti-semitism. :rolleyes: If everyone in the Middle East is like you and Avalon SARL I have no hope for a peaceful resolution.

It's basically just a way of quoting somebody without having all the text.

looooooooooooool ! i'm not going to continue arguing!, but not only arabs speak about palestine, the whole world does, even british peoples, i went to the uk and they really know about everything that happens there !
you should really know the truth before saying what ever

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:00
Nothing like a bit of anti-semitism. :rolleyes: If everyone in the Middle East is like you and Avalon SARL I have no hope for a peaceful resolution.



WT?

I thought you and I are agreeing with one another:confused:

Yes I beleive Israel is cruel and are not doing just,but I am not a stubborn ignorant who believes that the way tosolve the problem is go kill jews/zionists and blah blah blah stuff

Re-read my posts

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:00
WT?

I thought you and I are agreeing with one another:confused:

no he's not ! he's saying that arabs are *********

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 19:02
looooooooooooool ! i'm not going to continue arguing!, but not only arabs speak about palestine, the whole world does, even british peoples, i went to the uk and they really know about everything that happens there !
you should really know the truth before saying what everIn other words, people who hate Israel and want to see it wiped off the map know the "truth" where as everybody else is just a Zionist puppet?

WT?

I thought you and I are agreeing with one another:confused:No.

no he's not ! he's saying that arabs are *********I never said anything like that. :confused: Why do so many Arabs on this forum (I can't speak for anywhere else) have a massive victim complex? This isn't a dig at Arabs, as the few Arabs I have met IRL seem down to Earth (hell, my step-mother is Lebanese) but most of them on here that I've spoken to always lash out at people and start accusing them of hating Arabs for absolutely no reason.

Ward Dragon
15-05-11, 19:05
I agree,but you seem to miss the point

In Lebanon, we have many spectacular places with awesome architecture and landscape design.

the point I wanted to make was that there is a risk from rehabilitating that border because for any little problem,Israel will launch its missiles and KAboooooooooooommmmm

why risk millions of dollars over something we are not sure it is going to last for a couple of minutes or even a few years...

not worth it ;)

I still stand by what I said. Lebanon elected Hezbollah to power, which is a puppet for Iran and Syria to stir up trouble. Iran and Syria don't care what happens to Lebanon. They want to provoke Israel into overreacting, and if Lebanon gets destroyed then that only helps Iran and Syria to further their political agendas. If Lebanon had a more moderate government that wasn't hell-bent on eradicating Israel, then Israel wouldn't be so paranoid about activity on the Lebanese border.

(Note that when I say Lebanon, Iran and Syria I am referring to the governments of those countries, not the general population)

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:06
In other words, people who hate Israel and want to see it wiped off the map know the "truth" where as everybody else is just a Zionist puppet?

No.

I never said anything like that. :confused: Why do so many Arabs on this forum (I can't speak for anywhere else) have a massive victim complex?

i didn't mean anything by typing that ******** . you said so many things that i can't write because you said so many things .
i can't post pictures here like i said , they're too cruel ! come and visit palestine you will know the truth

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:07
In other words, people who hate Israel and want to see it wiped off the map know the "truth" where as everybody else is just a Zionist puppet?

No.

I never said anything like that. :confused: Why do so many Arabs on this forum (I can't speak for anywhere else) have a massive victim complex?

This forum has got like 5 Arab members I guess...

And no, you are wrong.

Can you please say where I have written something that is like I want war and death to zionists please:confused:

You must be read more and carefullybefore youpost.

If saying Israel is cruel will amke me have a massive victim complex or be ignorant, I still have my solid proofs and won't change my mind that Israel, like the others, are so cruel and they are terrorists as well


I still stand by what I said. Lebanon elected Hezbollah to power, which is a puppet for Iran and Syria to stir up trouble. Iran and Syria don't care what happens to Lebanon. They want to provoke Israel into overreacting, and if Lebanon gets destroyed then that only helps Iran and Syria to further their political agendas. If Lebanon had a more moderate government that wasn't hell-bent on eradicating Israel, then Israel wouldn't be so paranoid about activity on the Lebanese border.

(Note that when I say Lebanon, Iran and Syria I am referring to the governments of those countries, not the general population)

This is rather different subject; prefer not to go into details,but their election was not just and it was done by threatening people and gunpower ;)

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 19:07
It isn't just Palestinians that they mistreat.

There are a lot of migrant workers from Asia that come to work in Israel...Israel will not let their children stay. They want to deport them back to their parents home countries even tho the children can read/speak Hebrew.

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 19:09
This forum has got like 5 Arab members I guess...

And no, you are wrong.

Can you please say where I have written something that is like I want war and death to zionists please:confused:

You must be read more and carefullybefore youpost.

If saying Israel is cruel will amke me have a massive victim complex or be ignorant, I still have my solid proofs and won't change my mind that Israel, like the others, are so cruel and they are terrorists as wellI was talking to Mr Tomb.

I have been aggressively accused of hating Arabs many times on this forum simply because I'm pro-Israel (although by no means are they perfect), pro-America and for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:09
this is the simpliest thing that you can read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:09
I was talking to Mr Tomb.

+ Can you please say where I have written something that is like I want war and death to zionists please
same thing :p

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 19:12
+ Can you please say where I have written something that is like I want war and death to zionists please
same thing :pYou haven't explicitly said that, but your posts certainly imply that.

Sharon_14
15-05-11, 19:13
trolololol, quit the "we suffer so much, boohoo" rants, because it's just pathetic.

this "nakba" thing's purpose is only to harm us israelis and spread hatred, no less, it's strange how people are so blind here, seriously, is israel always to blame?

these so called "protesters" shouldn't have been where they have in the first ****ing place, if anything, it's their fault, not our forces'.

but the real question is: will it take longer for our lovely neighbors to realise there is no longer such a place in the middle east called "palestine"? :)

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:14
You haven't explicitly said that, but your posts certainly imply that.

:D nice lool , i have jewish friends, i know some israelians ones, i want peace for this world, but doesn't want to leave palestine alone ! it's so simple, israel can leave palestine without killing ..etc
you might undrestand my world like war and death, others don't

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:15
^ sorry I ama nice, lovely person and hope peace sometimes take place,but Palestine is its name andthat is how it will always be called

Ward Dragon
15-05-11, 19:15
This is rather different subject; prefer not to go into details,but their election was not just and it was done by threatening people and gunpower ;)

I know. All I'm saying is that I think if the Lebanese people could regain control of their government, a lot of the problems with Israel would go away. I think a lot of the current problems with Israel are due to tension caused by Hezbollah and similar groups, and that problem has to be solved first before peace with Israel is possible.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:16
trolololol, quit the "we suffer so much, boohoo" rants, because it's just pathetic.

this "nakba" thing's purpose is only to harm us israelis and spread hatred, no less, it's strange how people are so blind here, seriously, is israel always to blame?

these so called "protesters" shouldn't have been where they have in the first ****ing place, if anything, it's their fault, not our forces'.

but the real question is: will it take longer for our lovely neighbors to realise there is no longer such a place in the middle east called "palestine"? :)

yes, there's nothing called palestine, that's why they're doing what they're doing now :D

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:17
+ @mad tony
plz give me the posts that imply that i said that i want war..etc

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 19:20
trolololol, quit the "we suffer so much, boohoo" rants, because it's just pathetic.

this "nakba" thing's purpose is only to harm us israelis and spread hatred, no less, it's strange how people are so blind here, seriously, is israel always to blame?

these so called "protesters" shouldn't have been where they have in the first ****ing place, if anything, it's their fault, not our forces'.

but the real question is: will it take longer for our lovely neighbors to realise there is no longer such a place in the middle east called "palestine"? :)

You mean because you destroyed the place in the ME called "Palestine" ?

And your people are the ones that cry "boohoo our neighbors hate us" and then throw illegal gas at innocent children.

The purpose of Nakba is to NOT forget what happened and make sure it doesnt happen again

Sharon_14
15-05-11, 19:21
yes, there's nothing called palestine, that's why they're doing what they're doing now :D

...because they all lack intelligence. :)

instead of focusing on most of these countries' real issues, like women's rights and awful individual oppression, they focus on hating us, what a strange world.

You mean because you destroyed the place in the ME called "Palestine" ?

And your people are the ones that cry "boohoo our neighbors hate us" and then throw illegal gas at innocent children.

The purpose of Nakba is to NOT forget what happened and make sure it doesnt happen again

trololol, no.

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:21
I know. All I'm saying is that I think if the Lebanese people could regain control of their government, a lot of the problems with Israel would go away. I think a lot of the current problems with Israel are due to tension caused by Hezbollah and similar groups, and that problem has to be solved first before peace with Israel is possible.

Yes sure,but as we talk about it,it is much easier,but you knowwhat itsays: actions speak larger than words... :)

The government has been trying and trying and tryin,no stop trials, hoping someday something can be done

Lebanon is a great place,but too bad every other country wants to blemish it and the main reason behind this, as I see it, is because it is a country where you can do anything and be anyone and because will you can be of any religion and what makes it worst is that Muslims and Christians are living together so good with very strong relationships and bonds...

a bond I hope will never ever be broken
the past is past...

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:24
...because they all lack intelligence. :)

instead of focusing on most of these countries' real issues, like women's rights and awful individual oppression, they focus on hating us, what a strange world.



trololol, no.

ok, did u hear about the tunisian and egyptian revolution ? do you know why they were made ? + the womans here ( in tunisia ) have their complete rights, a few muslims or arabs does not represent us in general

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg_1q1flLQ8
this what can really happen if arabs do it

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:28
...because they all lack intelligence. :)

instead of focusing on most of these countries' real issues, like women's rights and awful individual oppression, they focus on hating us, what a strange world.



trololol, no.


WOW

I am not arguing this...

So childish actually and when will you stop spreading this nonesenseabout women rights and individual oppression

Would you please stop saying lies

What do you want

Actually women have more rights than males these days

They are hired for jobs before with even higher salaries :pi:

Apathetic
15-05-11, 19:30
Avalon SARL, you're ignorant.

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:36
WT?:confused:

That's so pathetic, a-p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c :pi:

Sharon_14
15-05-11, 19:38
ok, did u hear about the tunisian and egyptian revolution ? do you know why they were made ? + the womans here ( in tunisia ) have their complete rights, a few muslims or arabs does not represent us in general

that's why i said "most of" and not "all of".

i have no hate torwards arabs in general - i just think some of the actions our neighbors (and some far far away nuclear-lovin' psychos as well) do are pretty... well, stupid, there's no other way to say it.

WOW

I am not arguing this...

So childish actually and when will you stop spreading this nonesenseabout women rights and individual oppression

Would you please stop saying lies

What do you want
You want females to go *** males and that is giving women rights
WTF is this...

haha! these are not lies - they are facts. :)

that's not just about sex, that's about not abusing a woman when she's expressing herself, among other things.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:38
i suggest closing this thread before something else happens !

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 19:38
that's why i said "most of" and not "all of".

i have no hate torwards arabs in general - i just think some of the actions our neighbors (and some far far away nuclear-lovin' psychos as well) do are pretty... well, stupid, there's no other way to say it.



haha! these are not lies - they are facts. :)

that's not just about sex, that's about not abusing a woman when she's expressing herself, among other things.

well the fact is that israelians kill many many many peoples each day, they torture them and do awful things !

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:43
that's why i said "most of" and not "all of".

i have no hate torwards arabs in general - i just think some of the actions our neighbors (and some far far away nuclear-lovin' psychos as well) do are pretty... well, stupid, there's no other way to say it.



haha! these are not lies - they are facts. :)

that's not just about sex, that's about not abusing a woman when she's expressing herself, among other things.
Plz, I edited the post, so no need for those...
I was mad at you because you really did make me mad and you'restill making me :p


Where is this happening?

even @ SA women are working

even thousands of years ago, women had the power to protest and make election battles and were even able to participate in votes and become a leader or counsellor/ whatever

Your sarcasm is not friendly either

You make it sound like we go shoot the woman when she is speaking or doing something

can you please justify these facts and these other things?

Sharon_14
15-05-11, 19:47
our army does not kill many many many arabs each day, that's one of the many lies meant to make the hatred torwards us grow.

that's not even hatred torwards our country these, it's a hate of all israelis, it honestly appears as if you're bullying us because we're israelis, not because we "took over" the mythical palestine 60 years ago.

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 19:53
our army does not kill many many many arabs each day, that's one of the many lies meant to make the hatred torwards us grow.

that's not even hatred torwards our country these, it's a hate of all israelis, it honestly appears as if you're bullying us because we're israelis, not because we "took over" the mythical palestine 60 years ago.

You are very sarcastic actually and you like offending otheers asit seems
Again palestine is not mythical

you also make it sound that arabs hate all jews which is not truebecause many jews disagree with you as well

Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing, Thanks GOD

Your dream of building this Solomon temple in place of the golden dome mosque is the myth

Why can't your governement build it somewhere else?

Again as well, you did not write any facts of what you mentioned...

the fact is you are wrong and have no valid proof for what you wrote,because it is not true ;) and you know that

Sharon_14
15-05-11, 20:06
yes, most israelis are very sarcastic when it comes to this subject... perhaps because it's going on forever and we had enough.

never heard of this... "dream" you're talking about, that's indeed a myth, to be honest.

besides, the golden dome is an important archeological and religious site, the israeli goverment will never ruin it.

well, you don't have a "proof" for anything you said either. :vlol:

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 20:08
our army does not kill many many many arabs each day, that's one of the many lies meant to make the hatred torwards us grow.

that's not even hatred torwards our country these, it's a hate of all israelis, it honestly appears as if you're bullying us because we're israelis, not because we "took over" the mythical palestine 60 years ago.

i dont hate you i hate what you do. it's inhumane and uncivilized

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 20:09
i dont hate you i hate what you do. it's inhumane and uncivilized

+1

Peanut
15-05-11, 20:10
Fighting machine guns with rocks again. :pi:

LOL Jk.

Lots of protests in the middle east lately, I really hope everything works out. :/

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 20:11
yes, most israelis are very sarcastic when it comes to this subject... perhaps because it's going on forever and we had enough.

never heard of this... "dream" you're talking about, that's indeed a myth, to be honest.

besides, the golden dome is an important archeological and religious site, the israeli goverment will never ruin it.

well, you don't have a "proof" for anything you said either. :vlol:

There is no evidence that Israel wants to do that, but the place is restricted and muslims are not allowed to be there whenever they like

Israel armies must be there and they are always there...

that is not just
Muslims must pray with the soldiers withguns roaming around them and searching them


Fact is Israel has taken the land by force and still do it

It is difficult for me to get an evidence for such a claim about the dome andtemple,but you can provide proof for your claims, don;t you think ;)

you can come visit with no problem and see for yourself

Sharon_14
15-05-11, 20:14
again with this tortured saint rant? D:

it's like talking to a giant brick wall, so excuse me for not bothering to explain myself to you over and over - your opinions won't change.

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 20:16
Wt? :confused:

How oldare you?

Why should I change my opinion about something that does not even exist anymore:confused:

If not you,can someone else explain this:confused::confused:

Peanut
15-05-11, 20:18
There is no evidence that Israel wants to do that, but the place is restricted and muslims are not allowed to be there whenever they like
Israel armies must be there and they are always there...
that is not just
Muslims must pray with the soldiers with guns roaming around them and searching them
Fact is Israel has taken the land by force and still do it
It is difficult for me to get an evidence for such a claim about the dome and temple,but you can provide proof for your claims, don;t you think ;)
you can come visit with no problem and see for yourself

No offense is intended to Sharon_1 or anything but it's not Israel's fault that they have the balls to dictate or rather take over Palestine. It's done, get over it.

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 20:20
again with this tortured saint rant? D:

it's like talking to a giant brick wall, so excuse me for not bothering to explain myself to you over and over - your opinions won't change.

Israel uses the "woe is me" argument all the time "they hate us b/c we're Jews" No they hate you b/c you act like :cen::cen:

You keep taking land and even when the Int'l community says something you dont give up....funny how the ONLY time I ever see you on this forum is in threads like these

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 20:21
Israel uses the "woe is me" argument all the time "they hate us b/c we're Jews" No they hate you b/c you act like :cen::cen:The thing is though the Palestinians and their supporters do the exact same thing.

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 20:23
The thing is though the Palestinians and their supporters do the exact same thing.

I don't believe you where is your source? News articles? footage?

please show us

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 20:26
I don't believe you where is your source? News articles? footage?

please show usYes because that's the same as claiming the Israelis have been torturing and stealing children.

I don't know why you get so arsey over me asking for sources when people make big claims.

Avalon SARL
15-05-11, 20:29
Unfortunately both groups through claims with noevidence

Truth is both do badthings

Yes Israel kills and do awful things...
however minor compared to Israel,the other group are also spreading false claims

Maybe this land won't be liberated, till the times Jesus comes back...
as the Prophecy says

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 20:30
Yes because that's the same as claiming the Israelis have been torturing and stealing children.

I don't know why you get so arsey over me asking for sources when people make big claims.

b/c you don't ever let it go! You wont say anything else and that's ALL you say.

I never said they tortured and stole children. I said they wanted them deported back to their parent's home country thats completely different.

and to stop you from even saying it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8524723.stm

there's my source where's yours?

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 20:32
b/c you don't ever let it go! You wont say anything else and that's ALL you say.

I never said they tortured and stole children. I said they wanted them deported back to their parent's home country thats completely different.You clearly haven't been reading this thread then. I've made what, 15 posts? Only in one of them did I ask for a source, and I had every right to.

I never said you did say that. That's what Mr Tomb said and that's when I asked for a source at which point you went into another strop.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 20:36
You clearly haven't been reading this thread then. I've made what, 15 posts? Only in one of them did I ask for a source, and I had every right to.

I never said you did say that. That's what Mr Tomb said and that's when I asked for a source at which point you went into another strop.

i never said that ! pfffffff

Archetype
15-05-11, 20:37
It's funny how Israel is always seen as some sort of monster in situations like this...

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 20:37
i never said that ! pfffffffi meant free palestine just a mistake :D
yeah, and just a point, why are their neighbors are attacking them ? don't you see the news or some sort of these things ? seriously i think you have no idea of what's happening in palestine :( killing, tourchering, taking kidsReally?

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 20:38
You clearly haven't been reading this thread then. I've made what, 15 posts? Only in one of them did I ask for a source, and I had every right to.

I never said you did say that. That's what Mr Tomb said and that's when I asked for a source at which point you went into another strop.

Then we have a miscommunication b/c I had mentioned children in one of my previous posts. Since you were talking to me that's what I thought you were referencing, not Mr. Tomb's post.

So please understand when you made that comment it seems like you're talking about what I posted.

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 20:40
Then we have a miscommunication b/c I had mentioned children in one of my previous posts. Since you were talking to me that's what I thought you were referencing, not Mr. Tomb's post.

So please understand when you made that comment it seems like you're talking about what I posted.I think you need to read my posts more carefully then, because it was Mr Tomb's post which I quoted and asked for a source, which got you annoyed over me always asking for sources which led to me pointing out how what I said and what Mr Tomb said are different.

Pietras
15-05-11, 20:40
Here's what the most ridiculous. Israeli people think they're saint, Palestinian people think they're saint. Or more like they pretend to be in front of the rest of the world, trying to portray the other side as the monsters. While in fact both sides use straight out dirty, unethical and unmoral tactics and are very cynical and hypocritical about it. Both think they're entitled to this land. BS. No one is. It's the reality that matters. And the reality is that MILLIONS of people from both nations live there and no one will or should leave.

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 20:44
I think you need to read my posts more carefully then, because it was Mr Tomb's post which I quoted and asked for a source, which got you annoyed over me always asking for sources which led to me pointing out how what I said and what Mr Tomb said are different.

:hea::hea::hea:

Talking to you is exhausting!!! You won't even follow what I'm saying...I was MORE annoyed with the "child torture" comment.

No wonder you support Israel you do the same thing their leaders do and divert from the issue at hand.

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 20:46
:hea::hea::hea:

Talking to you is exhausting!!! You won't even follow what I'm saying...I was MORE annoyed with the "child torture" comment.

No wonder you support Israel you do the same thing their leaders do and divert from the issue at hand.You were the one who made the smart ass comment to me in the first place. You brought this on yourself.

Archetype
15-05-11, 20:48
No wonder you support Israel

What's wrong with supporting Israel?

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 20:53
Really?

yes really ! what i said is that israelians are killing peoples and taking children ! i didn't say i want war or somethings like that !

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 20:54
yes really ! what i said is that israelians are killing peoples and taking children ! i didn't say i want war or somethings like that !Read my posts carefully. You just said "I never said that" to a post where I was talking about what you said about torturing and taking children.

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 20:59
Read my posts carefully. You just said "I never said that" to a post where I was talking about what you said about torturing and taking children.
i know, but i didn't clame, because what they're doing is 100%
i half mise-undrestood you and i'm sorry but the truth is the truth
i was in a bad mood i thought that you said that i said that i want wars ...etc again
i apolojize :)

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 21:11
i know, but i didn't clame, because what they're doing is 100%
i half mise-undrestood you and i'm sorry but the truth is the truth
i was in a bad mood i thought that you said that i said that i want wars ...etc again
i apolojize :)Fair enough. :)

IceColdLaraCroft
15-05-11, 21:14
What's wrong with supporting Israel?

It's immoral.

WWII was supposed to teach us a lesson about not looking the other way when a group of people are targeted and persecuted and that's exactly what Israel does to Palestine. They do not treat them within the norms of humanitarian law or moral codes.

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 21:18
It's immoral.

WWII was supposed to teach us a lesson about not looking the other way when a group of people are targeted and persecuted and that's exactly what Israel does to Palestine. They do not treat them within the norms of humanitarian law or moral codes.If it's immoral to support Israel then it's immoral to support the Palestinians as well.

Archetype
15-05-11, 21:24
It's immoral.



If it's immoral to support Israel then it's immoral to support the Palestinians as well.

Summed up by Tina.


WWII was supposed to teach us a lesson about not looking the other way when a group of people are targeted and persecuted and that's exactly what Israel does to Palestine. They do not treat them within the norms of humanitarian law or moral codes.

How exactly is israel persecuting palestinians?

Pietras
15-05-11, 21:26
It's immoral.

WWII was supposed to teach us a lesson about not looking the other way when a group of people are targeted and persecuted and that's exactly what Israel does to Palestine. They do not treat them within the norms of humanitarian law or moral codes.

And what Palestine and other Arab countries do to Israel. Or you're gonna pretend multiple military invasions and smaller attacks on Israel never happened?

raiderfun
15-05-11, 21:35
If it's immoral to support Israel then it's immoral to support the Palestinians as well.

WTF ? Defending its country from aggressors, terrorists, colonizers and warmongers who cut off electricity, water and prevent any possible aid is immoral :vlol:

Mr Tomb
15-05-11, 21:55
wtf ? Defending its country from aggressors, terrorists, colonizers and warmongers who cut off electricity, water and prevent any possible aid is immoral :vlol:

:) :)

Pietras
15-05-11, 21:59
And that's exactly what I'm talking about. Both sides act exactly the same, as if they're 100% innocent and it's the other side that's the pure aggressor/terrorist. Ridiculous.

raiderfun
15-05-11, 22:12
And that's exactly what I'm talking about. Both sides act exactly the same, as if they're 100% innocent and it's the other side that's the pure aggressor/terrorist. Ridiculous.

And what shall the Palestinians do ? Cross their arms and wait until they lack food, water and finally get shot ? Are you expecting the UN to intervene ?

Pietras
15-05-11, 22:26
And what shall the Palestinians do ? Cross their arms and wait until they lack food, water and finally get shot ? Are you expecting the UN to intervene ?
And what are Israeli supposed to do? Cross their arms and wait until Palestinians blow up them all? See how this idiotic extreme reasoning works?

raiderfun
15-05-11, 22:40
And what are Israeli supposed to do? Cross their arms and wait until Palestinians blow up them all? See how this idiotic extreme reasoning works?

Lol, you're quite superficial. Are you thinking at least ? Who came to invade the other ? Who needs to protect its country from foreign armed colonizers ? Did you look back at the history before 1948 ?

Mad Tony
15-05-11, 22:51
Pietras is spot on here.

Pietras
15-05-11, 22:51
Lol, you're quite superficial.
I'm not, I brought up a superficial argument from the other side against yours on purpose.

Are you thinking at least ? Who came to invade the other ? Who needs to protect its country from foreign armed colonizers ? Did you look back at the history before 1948 ?
Did you bother to notice THE REALITY? There are millions of Jews living there at the moment, millions of people no worse than Palestinians. WTF do you want? All them to move out? Are you thinking at all?

raiderfun
15-05-11, 22:57
I'm not, I brought up a superficial argument from the other side against yours on purpose.


Did you bother to notice THE REALITY? There are millions of Jews living there at the moment, millions of people no worse than Palestinians. WTF do you want? All them to move out? Are you thinking at all?

Yes, I want them to move out all because that is colonization by force. No one has the right to invade another. They were only few thousands at the beginning, now they are already 7 millions, how many will there be by 2020 ? Here is this answer :

http://australiansforpalestine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/PALESTINE-MAP-CARD-copy.jpg


And are you teasing me when you say that they are "no worse than Palestinians" ? Have you ever put your feet in Palestine or watched documentaries ?

Catapharact
15-05-11, 23:17
And are you teasing me when you say that they are "no worse than Palestinians" ? Have you ever put your feet in Palestine or watched documentaries ?

And have you read headlines of incursions such as this:

http://www.arizona.statenews.net/story/754648

Or this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/18/world/main6310512.shtml

And trust me, there are plenty more examples where these one came from. The first and foremost action that Palestinians need to take is to distant themselves (nay... ERADICATE) extremist organizations like Hamas and Hezbullah before demanding any given sort of peace plan and separation plans from the Israelis.

I am just plain tired of both of em and the ongoing conflict in the region. If it were up to me, I would relocate both of the given ethnic groups and devastate the area with enough toxic laden bombs and pollute the area for at least a millennia... Hopefully by then, both sides would learn to get along.

I proposed a plan before to end all of this fighting, and I think its time I brought it up again:

I have the perfect solution for that (but it requires that I take control of key military and strategic decisions.)

Many of my brothers and sisters might not like me for this but I actually respect Ariel Sharon enough on the fact that he started the "two-state" transition by taking down illegal Jewish settlements and clearly defining a set boundry between Palestine and Israel. He was hated for it... Even verbally attacked for pushing through the plan by his own people but he clearly started something.

I personally want to continue on that path. If I were incharge of things in the region, I will personally gurantee to Israel that I will hand over the puppetmasters who run extremist Organizations like Hamas and Hezbullah. Israel can do whatever they want with em... Beat em, publically humiliate em... Hell I don't care if they use their scrotums to play hacky sack. HOWEVER, I do want Israel to turn over a few IDF commanders that I have in mind. I need to... *ahem* mediate a few things... with them.

After that's done and over with, I will personally see to it that the Arab Leauge and the strongest Military powers of that Leauge (S.A. included) create a military taskforce of the countries' elite Anti-Terror commandos. I personally want S.A. commandos to take the lead on this one since they have been QUITE effective in dealing with terrorist douches on home soil and urban combat seneios. The purpose of this taskforce will be one of two.

a) To systemactically destroy any remaining Hezbullah and Hamas support in the region.

b) To maintain peace and act as a police force to make sure order is restored. Face it, Fatah is corrupt. Its the only reason why Palestinians elected that gimpy party Hamas into power.

After I can assure Israel that I have the area secured and under control, we can get to negotiating things on boundiers, borders and visa and visitation rights.

Is this fair enough in your prespective?

Pietras
15-05-11, 23:23
Yes, I want them to move out all because that is colonization by force.
Great. Now tell us all genius how do you plan to move 7 million people. While you're at it, tell us where exactly do you plan to move them. In the meantime, think for one second you're not talking about numbers, but real people.

No one has the right to invade another.
Of course not. But this is not reversible at this point, not to mention using the word invasion here is highly cynical, unless you happily chose to ignore the fact most of Jews escaped to Palestine after that little thing called rise of Nazism and Holocaust which left 6 million other Jews in Europe killed. You think they were thinking "let's invade that Palestine muahaha!" at that time? I think 99% of them were running for their lives from Europe to a place they considered safer.

They were only few thousands at the beginning, now they are already 7 millions, how many will there be by 2020 ? Here is this answer :
So where's that answer how many will there be by 2020? The map shows 2009, I don't see 2020 anywhere.


And are you teasing me when you say that they are "no worse than Palestinians" ? Have you ever put your feet in Palestine or watched documentaries ?
Teasing you? I'm saying what is a fact. People's lives are equally worthy. You're not better than anyone else because you're Palestinian, French or Chinese. Neither you're worse than anyone else because of where you happened to be born. I'm concerned about people who are living right now. It is more important to me that the Jews and Arabs from Israel/Palestine can stay in their homes than any 'our land!' bull****. I'm concerned about the reality and real living people and their lives.

IceColdLaraCroft
16-05-11, 00:06
And what are Israeli supposed to do? Cross their arms and wait until Palestinians blow up them all? See how this idiotic extreme reasoning works?

No Israel should return to the borders set in 1948 and STOP land grabbing then building walls. They should STOP blockading the Gaza strip and allow the rest of the world to send in aid to Palestinians.

Israel has shown that they're more than willing to attack even their allies. They've killed Americans, they've killed journalists they've killed people from the UN. All without remorse and all without any consequences for their actions.

There's no such thing as an Israeli refugee but there are MILLIONS of Palestinian refugees.

Archetype
16-05-11, 09:45
They should STOP blockading the Gaza strip and allow the rest of the world to send in aid to Palestinians.



There's a blockade because of Hamas, who sponsor militant groups who are firing rockets over the border into Israel and you ask why there's a blockade?

You do the math.

Mr Tomb
16-05-11, 11:23
And what are Israeli supposed to do? Cross their arms and wait until Palestinians blow up them all? See how this idiotic extreme reasoning works?

:confused: :confused: and remind me, why are palestinians blowing israel ? because israel doesn't want to leave them alone ! there is no other way to defend a country rather using force ( which i don't like )

Mad Tony
16-05-11, 14:42
:confused: :confused: and remind me, why are palestinians blowing israel ? because israel doesn't want to leave them alone ! there is no other way to defend a country rather using force ( which i don't like )Firing rockets into Israel is not defense.

Pietras
16-05-11, 15:35
:confused: :confused: and remind me, why are palestinians blowing israel ? because israel doesn't want to leave them alone ! there is no other way to defend a country rather using force ( which i don't like )
Now stop for a moment and think about what you've just said. Because that's EXACTLY the same reasoning on the other side. Do you think they see attacks on their cities and their citizens as DEFENSE? No. After Palestinians attack, they fire back, then Palestinians fire back, then they fire back, they Palestinians fire back etc. It's a never-ending spiral of counter-attacks, dressed up in the excuse of defense. And in the end, innocent people on both side die while you prefer to focus on arguing 'who started first and who should admit it'.

voltz
16-05-11, 15:55
It's no longer defense at this point. Both sides just using it as an excuse to kill each other for hate's sake.

nick styger
16-05-11, 17:20
If you call on Allah in anger, it is not your enemies upon whom he will visit his wrath.

Goose
17-05-11, 17:04
No Israel should return to the borders set in 1948 and STOP land grabbing then building walls. They should STOP blockading the Gaza strip and allow the rest of the world to send in aid to Palestinians.


Something that is always ignored with this subject is the 6 day war, Arab preperations to destroy israel, after the arabs were defeated Israel took the land they used during the fighting. They see it as a trophy of war in some respects, aswell as being the land that Jews had called home before the muslim empire came about. So the grabbed land came as a direct result of arab armies from Syria and Egypt trying to invade Israel.

Also, for a Blockade to work, you need to surround the area, if you hadnt noticed, Egypt shares a border with Gaza, yet they refuse to send aid, do you know why?

Trinity34
21-05-11, 17:46
People should actually go back and read the history of Israel/Palestine after WWII. That is what I had to do and I bet there was more to it than what the history books say. The Jews were given Israel because of what happened to them in WWII but they had to live side by side with the Palestinians who were there. Israel was occupied by many countries and once they all left then a war broke out between the Israelis and the Arab League. People should read up on this because its pretty interesting. People thought the Jews were kicking out the Palestinians because the Jews wanted an "all Jewish state". To be honest, I think the world is to blame for what is happening to the Palestinians and we all need to take responsibility for their plight. Once they become a state and a member of the UN then I think things will get better for them. I also think that if today the other Arab nations declared war on Israel over the Palestinians, I don't think Israel will survive but who wants another world war? Israel better be careful....

Goose
21-05-11, 18:21
People should actually go back and read the history of Israel/Palestine after WWII. That is what I had to do and I bet there was more to it than what the history books say. The Jews were given Israel because of what happened to them in WWII...............

I don't think Israel will survive but who wants another world war? Israel better be careful....

Id be careful what you read, as that is not correct, the mandate for palestine pre-dates world war 2 and the holocaust by almost 2 decades. It was written up after the collapse of the ottoman empire after World war 1, the empire covered most of the middle east as one nation of autonomous regions. Palestine never existed under the ottoman empire as a country of people, just a region of one larger union.

Secondly, thats already happened....twice, and the arab countries didnt do so well....

IceColdLaraCroft
21-05-11, 18:31
Goose you're making the argument that there was "never a Palestinian state" well there was never a Jewish state. It wasn't as if Hitler kicked them out of the area and that's why it was settled. They're basis goes back 1,000 years and that is NO basis for a modern state. Because someone ONCE lived there!? That's :cen: ridiculous. The only reason Europe went along with it was because no one wanted the Jews. They should've been resettled in Canada.



President Obama and Netaynahu are disagreeing about returning to the 1967 borders.

Netayanhu is just like any other Israeli you cannot talk to them. They will not budge and it's their way or no way at all. It's ridiculous.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/52867000/gif/_52867348_westbank_old_new_624.gif

Mad Tony
21-05-11, 18:33
Netayanhu is just like any other Israeli you cannot talk to them. They will not budge and it's their way or no way at all. It's ridiculous. As a person so passionate about gay rights and so against generalizing gays I find it incredibly ironic that you're now generalizing all Israelis.

IceColdLaraCroft
21-05-11, 18:40
As a person so passionate about gay rights and so against generalizing gays I find it incredibly ironic that you're now generalizing all Israelis.

#1 I'm not passionate about gay rights and generalizing gays you have me confused with someone else.

#2 I meant the politicians or anyone in power in Israel. The people that the world try to talk to and try to get them to negotiate it's ALWAYS on Israel's terms as if they control everything.

The US seriously should cut back on their funding to Israel. It's the ONLY way to send a strong message. Senators and Congressmen are all about paying world leaders to get them to cooperate. Well Israeli leaders don't cooperate with the US, so why keep throwing money at them?

There is absolutely NOTHING that Israel gives to the US that justifies their relationship.

Mad Tony
21-05-11, 18:58
#1 I'm not passionate about gay rights and generalizing gays you have me confused with someone else.

#2 I meant the politicians or anyone in power in Israel. The people that the world try to talk to and try to get them to negotiate it's ALWAYS on Israel's terms as if they control everything.

The US seriously should cut back on their funding to Israel. It's the ONLY way to send a strong message. Senators and Congressmen are all about paying world leaders to get them to cooperate. Well Israeli leaders don't cooperate with the US, so why keep throwing money at them?

There is absolutely NOTHING that Israel gives to the US that justifies their relationship.I'm not confusing you with anyone. Regardless, as a gay person you most probably experience prejudice and generalizations and I would've thought you wouldn't want to generalize others. You say "people in power", but you just said Netayanhu is "like any other Israeli".

I expect the US strongly supports Israel because it's one of the only democracies in the Middle East and it's in their interest (probably the UK's as well) to support Israel given that Israel do help to fight terrorism. Perhaps Israel need to change their tactics and be less heavy-handed.

Trinity34
21-05-11, 18:59
They're basis goes back 1,000 years and that is NO basis for a modern state. Because someone ONCE lived there!? That's :cen: ridiculous.





You have to realise that the Jews think the land was given to them by God. Would you not fight for something God gave you?

IceColdLaraCroft
21-05-11, 19:06
I'm not confusing you with anyone. Regardless, as a gay person you most probably experience prejudice and generalizations and I would've thought you wouldn't want to generalize others. You say "people in power", but you just said Netayanhu is "like any other Israeli".

I expect the US strongly supports Israel because it's one of the only democracies in the Middle East and it's in their interest (probably the UK's as well) to support Israel given that Israel do help to fight terrorism. Perhaps Israel need to change their tactics and be less heavy-handed.

Do you have difficulties with reading comprehension? Because you didn't understand anything I said.

You have to realise that the Jews think the land was given to them by God. Would you not fight for something God gave you?

No I'm a Buddhist.

Creating a political entity out of the basis of a religious position on a piece of land that is shared by three religions is a BAD move.

Mad Tony
21-05-11, 19:10
Do you have difficulties with reading comprehension? Because you didn't understand anything I said.Do you have difficulties putting your feelings into words? Because you don't seem to understand what you said.

Cochrane
21-05-11, 19:17
I think there is far more justification for removing most americans (all who only have ancestors that reached the continent after 1492) from the US than to remove the Israelis from Israel. Depending on your point of view, you could argue that both are similar, but the US treated the native americans much worse than Israel treats the Palestinians, and the jewish can actually make a historic claim to the land (even if it is a bit weak), something the US never could, no matter how often they invoked "Manifest Destiny".

Also, in both cases, all economic development of the area happened only after the new states were formed, and the regions and their inhabitants would be much worse off if that never happened.

Apart from analogies: The conflict in Palestina was never handled well. It wasn't handled well by the british and the international community after the first world war, it wasn't handled well by the UN in 1947, and it hasn't been handled well by both arabs and israelis during all the time at least since the state was founded. Neither the current situation nor how it came to it are ideal. But I think it should be possible to find a peaceful, mutually beneficial solution, if both sides just want to.

Of course, I often doubt that the sides do want a peaceful solution…

Mad Tony
21-05-11, 19:20
Of course, I often doubt that the sides do want a peaceful solution…Looking at a lot of the posts in here I think you're right.

I am slightly pro-Israel, but as I've said before, they need to perhaps be a bit more tactful as well.

IceColdLaraCroft
21-05-11, 19:29
Do you have difficulties putting your feelings into words? Because you don't seem to understand what you said.

Oh so you know more than i do about my own experiences with prejudice and generalizations about being gay?

And when you were unclear what I said about "israelis" and then clarified my statement/meaning you were still confused.

But yet I don't understand what I said and you do?....right


Also, in both cases, all economic development of the area happened only after the new states were formed, and the regions and their inhabitants would be much worse off if that never happened.


0_o are you seriously saying that native American's would've been WORSE off? Living in harmony with nature?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of the world's problems TODAY come from Colonization by European powers. The issues in Africa, the Middle East, parts of Asia and Europe itself. Are all legacies of colonization.

The palestinian territories could simply have been given to the people living there, but instead a group of Europeans were moved there because of a war that had NOTHING to do with the people in that territory.

Cochrane
21-05-11, 19:41
0_o are you seriously saying that native American's would've been WORSE off? Living in harmony with nature?
"Living in harmony with nature" is a slogan for travel agencies. Obviously, it's not easy to say what would have been better for the native americans because it depends on what you call better, and I do realize that their current situation is far from ideal as well. But if you look at things like infant mortality, life expectation, hunger or literacy, i.e. common measurements for how well a society is doing, that did go up.

All of the world's problems TODAY come from Colonization by European powers. The issues in Africa, the Middle East, parts of Asia and Europe itself. Are all legacies of colonization.
Interesting point of view. I assume that includes the conflicts in and between the former soviet republics like Georgia and Russia or Armenia and Azerbaijan. It also includes all the animosity still happening in the former Yugoslavia, right? Human rights violations in Iran and China? The current civil wars in the middle east? Global pollution? Mismatch of railway gauges between most of Europe and most of Asia?

Over-simplification rarely helps matters.

The palestinian territories could simply have been given to the people living there, but instead a group of Europeans were moved there because of a war that had NOTHING to do with the people in that territory.
You do realize that by the time the Ottoman empire was broken up, there was already a steady stream of jewish people to the area, and had been for forty years? I'm not saying this was unproblematic, but the common argument "they moved the jews to Palestine because after WW2, they did not want to be in Europe anymore" is plain wrong.

Mad Tony
21-05-11, 20:08
Oh so you know more than i do about my own experiences with prejudice and generalizations about being gay?

And when you were unclear what I said about "israelis" and then clarified my statement/meaning you were still confused.

But yet I don't understand what I said and you do?....rightWell, are you telling me people have never generalized you becuase of your sexuality?

I wasn't unclear, you seemed unclear about what you wrote in the first place. In future, if you mean people in power, say people in power.

All of the world's problems TODAY come from Colonization by European powers. The issues in Africa, the Middle East, parts of Asia and Europe itself. Are all legacies of colonization.Ah yes, let's all blame it on those evil Europeans.

IceColdLaraCroft
21-05-11, 20:27
"Living in harmony with nature" is a slogan for travel agencies. Obviously, it's not easy to say what would have been better for the native americans because it depends on what you call better, and I do realize that their current situation is far from ideal as well. But if you look at things like infant mortality, life expectation, hunger or literacy, i.e. common measurements for how well a society is doing, that did go up.


Interesting point of view. I assume that includes the conflicts in and between the former soviet republics like Georgia and Russia or Armenia and Azerbaijan. It also includes all the animosity still happening in the former Yugoslavia, right? Human rights violations in Iran and China? The current civil wars in the middle east? Global pollution? Mismatch of railway gauges between most of Europe and most of Asia?

Over-simplification rarely helps matters.


You do realize that by the time the Ottoman empire was broken up, there was already a steady stream of jewish people to the area, and had been for forty years? I'm not saying this was unproblematic, but the common argument "they moved the jews to Palestine because after WW2, they did not want to be in Europe anymore" is plain wrong.

Native American's lives didn't get BETTER when Europeans started coming to North America. They brought disease, poverty, ignorance and wiped out their cultures.

The situations on the borders of Europe/Russia are from the lines drawn by Europeans, just like Africa. There was no consideration of the cultural/ethnic divisions.

I didn't say Jews were moved to Palestine b/c they didn't want to be in europe EUROPEANS didn't want the Jews in Europe. There were huge resettlement issues. Many European governments didn't want the Jews, didn't want to handle the issue. The Jews pushed for a homeland and it made Europe happy to be rid of them.

And yea there were Jews living there before Israel...happily...without severe issues. So what happened?

Well, are you telling me people have never generalized you becuase of your sexuality?

I wasn't unclear, you seemed unclear about what you wrote in the first place. In future, if you mean people in power, say people in power.

Ah yes, let's all blame it on those evil Europeans.

No i never have been generalized because of my sexuality.

No matter what I say in the future you or someone else is going to read it wrong.

There is a clear legacy with European colonialism and today's issues. If you can't see any of them then you're blind.

amore-guy
21-05-11, 20:37
Native American's lives didn't get BETTER when Europeans started coming to North America. They brought disease, poverty, ignorance and wiped out their cultures.

The situations on the borders of Europe/Russia are from the lines drawn by Europeans, just like Africa. There was no consideration of the cultural/ethnic divisions.

I didn't say Jews were moved to Palestine b/c they didn't want to be in europe EUROPEANS didn't want the Jews in Europe. There were huge resettlement issues. Many European governments didn't want the Jews, didn't want to handle the issue. The Jews pushed for a homeland and it made Europe happy to be rid of them.

And yea there were Jews living there before Israel...happily...without severe issues. So what happened?



No i never have been generalized because of my sexuality.

No matter what I say in the future you or someone else is going to read it wrong.

There is a clear legacy with European colonialism and today's issues. If you can't see any of them then you're blind.


So true! Well said mate.

Mad Tony
21-05-11, 21:10
No i never have been generalized because of my sexuality.Ok. The way people go on about it on this forum I was under the impression all homosexuals were faced with constant generalizations and prejudice.

No matter what I say in the future you or someone else is going to read it wrong.No, not necessarily. If in future you said "people in power" there's absolutely no room to interpret that the wrong way.

There is a clear legacy with European colonialism and today's issues. If you can't see any of them then you're blind.There's a legacy but that doesn't mean European colonialism is the main cause. It's time to stop looking at the past and look at what the issues are today.

Cochrane
21-05-11, 21:49
Native American's lives didn't get BETTER when Europeans started coming to North America. They brought disease, poverty, ignorance and wiped out their cultures.
Okay, then let me rephrase what I meant: The US are a hugely important nation, the most important economy on the planet, have very good infrastructure, educational system, scientific institutions, health systems and so on. None of these are perfect, obviously, but the point is that modern prosperity is due to immigrants, and very, very few people would say "Get out of this land and take all that stuff with you!"

The situations on the borders of Europe/Russia are from the lines drawn by Europeans, just like Africa. There was no consideration of the cultural/ethnic divisions.
I still think that oversimplifies issues, but even if I grant you that, we still have human rights violations in China and Iran, civil wars or similar situation in the middle east and global pollution.

I am not saying that there aren't problems caused by european colonization. You are probably right when you say that most of Africa's issues were caused by that. It's blaming EVERYTHING on european colonization that I have a problem with.

I didn't say Jews were moved to Palestine b/c they didn't want to be in europe EUROPEANS didn't want the Jews in Europe. There were huge resettlement issues. Many European governments didn't want the Jews, didn't want to handle the issue. The Jews pushed for a homeland and it made Europe happy to be rid of them.

And yea there were Jews living there before Israel...happily...without severe issues. So what happened?

You do realize that the british mandate authority was very, very reluctant to allow jewish immigration into Israel? You keep arguing that the european powers pushed the jewish people into Israel, which is provably wrong.

It is also questionable to say that there were people living there before. The total population at the start of the 19th century was only about 300,000. Immigration of arabs started only in large numbers when the jewish decided to make the region their home. The idea that there is one palestinian people, instead of just arabs from the former Ottoman empire that happened to live there, comes only from the second half of the 20th century.

My point is: The situation is difficult. Any attempt to pretend it isn't will only serve to make it more so.

Mr.Burns
22-05-11, 00:55
Have an issue with the Israeli government? Fine. Have an issues with the Jewish people? Go **** yourselves.

Signed,

A Jew. :wve:

IceColdLaraCroft
22-05-11, 01:09
israel claims land of Palestine.

China claims land of Tibet.

People support Tibet, but not Palestine. why not?

Mad Tony
22-05-11, 09:20
israel claims land of Palestine.

China claims land of Tibet.

People support Tibet, but not Palestine. why not?You seem to have a very black and white way of looking at things. They're not the same at all.

Cochrane
22-05-11, 10:12
israel claims land of Palestine.

China claims land of Tibet.

People support Tibet, but not Palestine. why not?

Because the two situations are not identical, nor in fact very similar. You could make a similar claim for any case where borders ever changed, and it wouldn't help the discussion much either.

Beans-Bot
22-05-11, 17:44
While I find this difficult to say in accordance to my beliefs, I really don't support either side, honestly. I've heard reports from both Israel and Palestine of awful, ungodly atrocities that both places have done to each other's citizens, so I refuse to support such violence as a misguided act of piety. The actions I've seen are not anything to be condoned by the God I believe in. I still believe that Israel is the holy land, I just also believe that they shouldn't hold that as some "get out of jail free" card. They can clean up their act before I ever support them.

Goose
22-05-11, 18:24
Goose you're making the argument that there was "never a Palestinian state" well there was never a Jewish state. [/IMG]

Im not making an argument, im stating a simple fact, The country of Palestine is as old as the current state of Israel.



Because someone ONCE lived there!?


Thats not the case at all.....unless you choose to ignore everything that happened between 1000 AD and 1947.... then yes your correct.

This was the middle east, as one nation up until 1920:
http://1.2.3.9/bmi/img1.loadtr.com/b-404575-Ottoman_Empire_1.gif

The state/union you see there came under our rule after world war 1, we commanded that region, and put about reform. Part of that reform was to house the jewish communities that had no homes. Palestine and Israel were both Syria and arabia up and till 1920, as defeated empires they couldnt remain that way. Have a read of this for better information on the hows and whys... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine

In its simplist explanations, the reason why Israel is in Palestine, is similar to why Germany is not the same size as it was Pre-World war one. After getting there ass kicked, we called the shots.

Trinity34
24-05-11, 23:13
Of course, I often doubt that the sides do want a peaceful solution…


Did you see the news about the Israeli prime minister is willing to "compromise" and hand over some land for a Palestinian state? I was like... :yik:

Cochrane
24-05-11, 23:24
Did you see the news about the Israeli prime minister is willing to "compromise" and hand over some land for a Palestinian state? I was like... :yik:

Such things have been said in the past. The important questions remain: How much and what land, what will happen to Palestinians who (used to) live or work outside that zone, and of course what concessions are the Palestinians willing to make? For the moment, I remain skeptical.

Trinity34
24-05-11, 23:44
Such things have been said in the past. The important questions remain: How much and what land, what will happen to Palestinians who (used to) live or work outside that zone, and of course what concessions are the Palestinians willing to make? For the moment, I remain skeptical.

I am skeptical too but its the fact that he changed his mind so quick after stating no land would be given over. Makes me wonder if there is A LOT of pressure coming from other countries... umm, US maybe? :pi:

Cochrane
24-05-11, 23:54
I am skeptical too but its the fact that he changed his mind so quick after stating no land would be given over. Makes me wonder if there is A LOT of pressure coming from other countries... umm, US maybe? :pi:

Maybe, but I think the pressure was more general. After all, he tried to exert pressure on the US first to remove the reference to 1967, and Obama was forced to clarify his statement in front of jewish audiences in the US. So I seriously doubt he'd completely change his mind right now.

I think this is not changing his mind, it's damage control. He can't afford to leave no perspective for the Palestinians, and he can't afford to have too much of a rift between the US and Israel. So now he tries hard to find something that sounds vaguely like what Obama said, but can be interpreted as something that the more conservative parts of Israel still find acceptable.

Trinity34
24-05-11, 23:58
Now Obama is touring Europe and to be honest I think he is trying to gain support for a Palestinian state. Can't wait to see what happens. :D Ahh the drama... :p

Ward Dragon
25-05-11, 04:08
Such things have been said in the past. The important questions remain: How much and what land, what will happen to Palestinians who (used to) live or work outside that zone, and of course what concessions are the Palestinians willing to make? For the moment, I remain skeptical.

Indeed. I don't expect Israel to give away land that would pose a security risk to them (as I understand it, most of the land in question is a buffer zone that Israel controls only to prevent people from getting close enough to fire rockets into Israeli cities) so I wonder which territory might be given which fits that requirement.

Johnnay
25-05-11, 04:56
Such things have been said in the past. The important questions remain: How much and what land, what will happen to Palestinians who (used to) live or work outside that zone, and of course what concessions are the Palestinians willing to make? For the moment, I remain skeptical.

hes just playing games though, the possibilty of Palestinians getting their land is no more or less than any unreconizged State out there, but Palestine is now recognized by a lot of countries out there and that odes increase their chances(though once again it might just be a game)

Avalon SARL
25-05-11, 04:59
Now Obama is touring Europe and to be honest I think he is trying to gain support for a Palestinian state. Can't wait to see what happens. :D Ahh the drama... :p

Where did you get that from?

Trinity34
25-05-11, 23:36
Where did you get that from?

Its just my personal opinion, no news stories about it. What made me think it was the fact Obama was talking about going back to the borders established in 1967. Obviously he supports a Palestinian state and now after that conflict with the Israeli prime minister, Obama tours Europe talking with leaders about the middle east. This is my opinion but I think Palestine is on his agenda... maybe its not 100% his agenda because lots of other things are going on like the uprisings but I would bet Palestine comes up in the talks.

Cochrane
25-05-11, 23:47
Support for a palestinian state in general is there. This is part of the Oslo Roadmap that all european countries have, officially or unofficially, declared to be a good idea. The question is whether palestine is currently in a position where such a state could sustain itself without descending into chaos. Last I heard, this was not entirely confirmed.

IceColdLaraCroft
25-05-11, 23:50
Its just my personal opinion, no news stories about it. What made me think it was the fact Obama was talking about going back to the borders established in 1967. Obviously he supports a Palestinian state and now after that conflict with the Israeli prime minister, Obama tours Europe talking with leaders about the middle east. This is my opinion but I think Palestine is on his agenda... maybe its not 100% his agenda because lots of other things are going on like the uprisings but I would bet Palestine comes up in the talks.

I don't think that's too far off. The Obama administration wants a Palestinian state. The issue is set to come before the UN and I think the US is putting it out there that it needs to go through. But I think most European countries are already in favor of the idea.

Pietras
26-05-11, 00:11
I don't think that's too far off. The Obama administration wants a Palestinian state. The issue is set to come before the UN and I think the US is putting it out there that it needs to go through. But I think most European countries are already in favor of the idea.
Most countries are in favor, this is kind of a Kosovo situation, everyone knows it (Palestinian state) will and should happen so it's just waiting for that moment.

Alex Shepherd
28-05-11, 01:50
They're both looking for war by being violent in the first place. Don't try and paint this as if Israel are the aggressors.

Bro... Your mother may brought a pizza for you... go and eat pizza... Or watch some cartoons... Tom and Jerry are really smart to watch... Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world... You are not important here at all man... Believe me you have been brainwashed... Totally brainwashed...

Cochrane
28-05-11, 09:25
Bro... Your mother may brought a pizza for you... go and eat pizza... Or watch some cartoons... Tom and Jerry are really smart to watch... Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world... You are not important here at all man... Believe me you have been brainwashed... Totally brainwashed...

Good reply, sir! I expect he'll take this to heart and re-evaluate his position thoroughly, after you made such a convincing argument.

Mad Tony
28-05-11, 10:04
Bro... Your mother may brought a pizza for you... go and eat pizza... Or watch some cartoons... Tom and Jerry are really smart to watch... Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world... You are not important here at all man... Believe me you have been brainwashed... Totally brainwashed...All I have to say:

LOL!

Johnnay
28-05-11, 21:22
Most countries are in favor, this is kind of a Kosovo situation, everyone knows it (Palestinian state) will and should happen so it's just waiting for that moment.

except more countries reconizge Palestine than Kosovo, and the Palestinian issue is much older and a bigger problem than what Kosovo has done,

and(not about your post), but i like to add a point, no matter what Obama says when it comes to a Palestinian State, the last people who will prevent such a thing are the Zionists which Control the American Government so the possibility of a Palestinian state IMO is barely zero.

Mad Tony
28-05-11, 21:31
the last people who will prevent such a thing are the Zionists which Control the American Government so the possibility of a Palestinian state IMO is barely zero.Give it a rest. I can't tell you how annoying the whole Zionist conspiracy stuff. If it really was true, don't you think it's kind of silly that their "puppet" (Obama) has come out in support of a Palestinian state?

Johnnay
28-05-11, 21:40
Give it a rest. I can't tell you how annoying the whole Zionist conspiracy stuff. If it really was true, don't you think it's kind of silly that their "puppet" (Obama) has come out in support of a Palestinian state?

but the Israeli Prime Minister doesnt want it to happen, and judging by the Jewish Settlement buildings in the West Bank which is continuing i dont think Obama could do much,

and i so found this recent article to be funny
http://www.hudson-ny.org/2153/obama-zionist-agent
:)

Mad Tony
28-05-11, 22:32
but the Israeli Prime Minister doesnt want it to happen, and judging by the Jewish Settlement buildings in the West Bank which is continuing i dont think Obama could do much,Newsflash: the US president runs the US, not the Israeli Prime Minister.

Apathetic
28-05-11, 22:35
Bro... Your mother may brought a pizza for you... go and eat pizza... Or watch some cartoons... Tom and Jerry are really smart to watch... Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world... You are not important here at all man... Believe me you have been brainwashed... Totally brainwashed...

What a psycho.

Cochrane
28-05-11, 23:25
I tend to ignore any argument that includes the word "zionist" in a serious manner. Much like "inside job", "antispeciesism", "Micro$oft" or "Bielefeld", that term is mostly used by people who already have a very strong and firm opinion on the issue. Arguing with them is neither productive nor fun, because they tend to ignore that there are multiple sides to an argument.

I'm not saying zionism does not exist. But many people seem to think it is a huge conspiracy, like the ones supposedly behind 9/11 or Bielefeld. And many more don't seem to think at all, and just use it as a generic term for assumed evil when coming from Israel or Jews. It has tragically become something quite similar to the Reductio ad Hitlerum, and I propose Godwin's Law should be amended to include it.

So Johnnay, if you want to convince any of us, then don't say "Obama's zionist friends won't allow it" or similar. Give us proof of that conspiracy, or explain why you think that Obama won't see it as politically wise to do so. That is far more interesting and helpful than just saying "It's because of zionism".

Mad Tony
28-05-11, 23:34
Give us proof of that conspiracyYou're gonna get flamed for that. Certain members here don't like it when proof is demanded from those peddling outlandish theories.

Cochrane
28-05-11, 23:49
You're gonna get flamed for that. Certain members here don't like it when proof is demanded from those peddling outlandish theories.

True; but damn, you get awesome prose out of that. Just look at this again:
Bro... Your mother may brought a pizza for you... go and eat pizza... Or watch some cartoons... Tom and Jerry are really smart to watch... Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world... You are not important here at all man... Believe me you have been brainwashed... Totally brainwashed...
Such a post is quite an achievement. I think I'll print it out and have it framed so I can keep it forever. There you go along, reading normal posts in a normal forum, and suddenly: Bam, possible pizza!


Okay, I'm sorry @Alex Shepherd, that was mean. I don't want to offend you or anyone. Still, I think that post is a bit surreal. And I don't like it either when people tell other people "you're stupid for not believing my conspiracy theory, open your eyes, yada yada yada". The point of a forum, in a hypothetical ideal world, is discussion, having own points of view, convincing others of them, but also altering yours as you learn more from other people. And surprisingly often, forums can deliver that. But any argument along the line "if you were smart, you'd already agree with me" is about as helpful as arguing about Lady Gaga, and way more offensive.

Mad Tony
28-05-11, 23:52
I thought the "Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world" was the most disturbing. He must have some serious issues if he thinks people who don't agree with him should go kill themselves.

amore-guy
29-05-11, 00:21
Just wanted to post this:
:vlol::vlol::p

Alex Shepherd
29-05-11, 00:45
I thought the "Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world" was the most disturbing. He must have some serious issues if he thinks people who don't agree with him should go kill themselves.

Defending on murderers makes people keep saying this to you... Just keep your opinion a little fact away from illusion and imaginary...


Such a post is quite an achievement. I think I'll print it out and have it framed so I can keep it forever. There you go along, reading normal posts in a normal forum, and suddenly: Bam, possible pizza!
Okay, I'm sorry @Alex Shepherd, that was mean. I don't want to offend you or anyone. Still, I think that post is a bit surreal. And I don't like it either when people tell other people "you're stupid for not believing my conspiracy theory, open your eyes, yada yada yada". The point of a forum, in a hypothetical ideal world, is discussion, having own points of view, convincing others of them, but also altering yours as you learn more from other people. And surprisingly often, forums can deliver that. But any argument along the line "if you were smart, you'd already agree with me" is about as helpful as arguing about Lady Gaga, and way more offensive.

Sorry but I wasn't thinking right when I post this... And my apologies to him. :)

Pietras
29-05-11, 00:59
Bro... Your mother may brought a pizza for you... go and eat pizza... Or watch some cartoons... Tom and Jerry are really smart to watch... Or just go and suicide... You don't belong to this world... You are not important here at all man... Believe me you have been brainwashed... Totally brainwashed...
You deserve a nice long ban for this, gonna make sure you get one

Alex Shepherd
29-05-11, 01:17
Just wanted to post this:
:vlol::vlol::p

http://www.freeiconsweb.com/Freeicons/Face_icon/Huh!.png

IceColdLaraCroft
29-05-11, 02:40
http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/graphs/israels_hatched_egg.jpg

Goose
29-05-11, 07:43
http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/graphs/israels_hatched_egg.jpg

Whats that meant to be?

Obama hatching out of isreal? Surely Obama cracking an egg with the israeli flag would make more sense, as he's trying to damage the defensive perimeter the set up?

Alex Shepherd
29-05-11, 09:54
http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/graphs/israels_hatched_egg.jpg

Way good!! Now America really must wake up for this :tmb:

Cochrane
29-05-11, 10:23
http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/graphs/israels_hatched_egg.jpg

Could you provide a translation for the text in the upper right? Because right now it seems as if this is trying to tell us that Obama (or his policies) has been hiding in Israel (or their politics), and I'll be damned if I know how that makes sense. If it were the other way around, Israeli interests hiding in Obama's agenda, I'd at least understand it, but this is just plain weird.

Mad Tony
29-05-11, 10:31
Defending on murderers makes people keep saying this to you... Just keep your opinion a little fact away from illusion and imaginary..."Makes people keep saying this to you"? So far, only you've told me to kill myself because I hold different views. Furthermore, you defend terrorists and suicide bombers, so it's quite rich you telling me I support "murderers" when you do the same thing but worse.

amore-guy
29-05-11, 12:54
I say stop debating (fighting actually) because its worthless, a nice trip to the middle east wont hurt anybody since you guys are very professional in this(for the members who are living outside of it).:p Yet again the US warns travelling there. Its up to you!:p

Goose
30-05-11, 12:43
I say stop debating (fighting actually) because its worthless, a nice trip to the middle east wont hurt anybody since you guys are very professional in this(for the members who are living outside of it).:p Yet again the US warns travelling there. Its up to you!:p

I already had a trip there, was very nice actually, Dubai was more Americanised then San diego (if that could possibly happen), iv been to both.

Odd how alot of middle eastern countries claim to support those they call brothers in Palestine, yet alot of nations there live more decadent lifestyles then us in the west.

Maybe your preaching to the wrong people, or do those in the arab world who have money, fast cars, mansions and oil not care?

Lemmie
30-05-11, 13:21
I already had a trip there, was very nice actually, Dubai was more Americanised then San diego (if that could possibly happen), iv been to both.

Odd how alot of middle eastern countries claim to support those they call brothers in Palestine, yet alot of nations there live more decadent lifestyles then us in the west.

Maybe your preaching to the wrong people, or do those in the arab world who have money, fast cars, mansions and oil not care?

You think the majority of people in the Middle East live decadent and luxurious lifestyles?

Goose
30-05-11, 13:33
You think the majority of people in the Middle East live decadent and luxurious lifestyles?

Nope, just that we are not the corrupt ones. The standard of living of people in say Saudi arabia or UAE is vastly different to Others.

amore-guy
30-05-11, 14:01
I already had a trip there, was very nice actually, Dubai was more Americanised then San diego (if that could possibly happen), iv been to both.

Odd how alot of middle eastern countries claim to support those they call brothers in Palestine, yet alot of nations there live more decadent lifestyles then us in the west.

Maybe your preaching to the wrong people, or do those in the arab world who have money, fast cars, mansions and oil not care?

True:tmb:, this is because Dubai has a lot of foreign workers there even more than arabs I believe, we all know when people have luxurious lives (anywhere you want) they just simply dont care, not all of them but most of them if you want. So basically they dont do anything. Especially the countries that you just named up there^:p

Lemmie
30-05-11, 14:13
Nope, just that we are not the corrupt ones. The standard of living of people in say Saudi arabia or UAE is vastly different to Others.

You're talking about the powerful minority in Saudi Arabia or the UAE. Their support of the Palestinians doesn't de-legitimise the cause of the Palestinians, right?

IceColdLaraCroft
30-05-11, 14:24
I already had a trip there, was very nice actually, Dubai was more Americanised then San diego (if that could possibly happen), iv been to both.

Odd how alot of middle eastern countries claim to support those they call brothers in Palestine, yet alot of nations there live more decadent lifestyles then us in the west.

Maybe your preaching to the wrong people, or do those in the arab world who have money, fast cars, mansions and oil not care?

How does having a decadent lifestyle make them any less supporters of Palestine? UAE has oil and is a financial center.

They can't send them food, equipment or supplies because Israel won't let those things into Palestinian territories. Money wouldn't do anything b/c they then can't use it to buy anything.

I really don't see how their economic status has anything to do with whether or not they're supportive of their Palestinian brothers.

I also REALLY doubt that YOU sat down with some of these decadent Arabs and had a conversation about Palestine.

Goose
30-05-11, 14:42
You're talking about the powerful minority in Saudi Arabia or the UAE. Their support of the Palestinians doesn't de-legitimise the cause of the Palestinians, right?

No, there lack of support, aswell as egypts up untill this month.


I really don't see how their economic status has anything to do with whether or not they're supportive of their Palestinian brothers.


Mainly its about Sunni, shia and Wahabbism. Its also about the Arab League's stance when debating the region with the UN, the arabs dont really care. Why else would Egypt have shut its borders for 5 years? They could have sent millions of dollars worth of food and aid to gaza without anyone stopping them.

I lived alongside Saudis and UAE army when doing my Phase 2 training for a year. There private's are on four times as much as me at that time. Had saudi recruits driving about camp in brand new BMW's.

IceColdLaraCroft
30-05-11, 14:50
So it sounds like you have more of an issue that someone else got paid more than you for doing the same or a lesser job.

What would qualify as "support" in your eyes?

Goose
30-05-11, 14:53
So it sounds like you have more of an issue that someone else got paid more than you for doing the same or a lesser job.

What would qualify as "support" in your eyes?

Lol, not really, economy and standards of living in Saudi arabia means that they are on the same wage as me in reality, just not in the UK.

Supportive means the arab league, convincing the UN to send aid to Gaza and Palestine, using Egypts border along with Jordans.

But Islam has so many sects that actually hate each other, instead of blaming the west, they should look at themselves and there neughbours for help.

They certainly should not expect help from Israel.

IceColdLaraCroft
30-05-11, 15:03
There already are programs that attempt to send aid to gaza and palestine. ISRAEL WONT LET THEM. They sift through everything and say "no they can't have bikes the metal could be used for weapons" "no they can't have concrete it could be used against us"

there are more UN resolutions against Israel than there were against Sadaam's regime in Iraq!

Goose
30-05-11, 15:06
There already are programs that attempt to send aid to gaza and palestine.

Now how has Israel stopped Egypt from sending food to Gaza if i may ask? Considering there is zero Israeli presence on the Egyptian-Gaza border?