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Quasimodo
23-05-11, 22:34
When you're filling out a form or a survey, and you get asked whether your male or female, M or F, you pretty much answer it without hesitation, right? Imagine being raised in such a way that you feel that binary doesn't apply to you. That's what this Canadian family is attempting to do with their youngest child. Anyhoo, here's the link...let's hear your thoughts!
http://www.thestar.com/article/995112

FloTheMachine
23-05-11, 22:35
Seriously?

Ora Dagger
23-05-11, 22:37
I was too lazy too read that long article:o But why wouldn't they just tell people the child's gender? whats the big deal?

Mad Tony
23-05-11, 22:40
That's absolutely bang out of the order. The fact that this child was born normally (that is to say, it was a male or female and not a hermaphrodite) and they're trying to impose their "progressive" (how the hell can they call this progressive?) beliefs on it is disgusting. I know I shouldn't really judge other parents given that I'm not a parent myself but I think this is terrible parenting.

patriots88888
23-05-11, 22:42
I can see this potentially causing a rift between this child and his/her parents. Kid's are often rebellious enough without any of this extra baggage attached to their already tumultuous adolescent years. On the other hand, maybe he/she will be grateful to them for this. Only time will tell, I suppose.

Rai
23-05-11, 22:44
It's an odd decision, but whatever they want, I guess.

larafan25
23-05-11, 22:44
That's absolutely bang out of the order. The fact that this child was born normally (that is to say, it was a male or female and not a hermaphrodite) and they're trying to impose their "progressive" (how the hell can they call this progressive?) beliefs on it is disgusting. I know I shouldn't really judge other parents given that I'm not a parent myself but I think this is terrible parenting.

I don't get what you mean.

Tombraiderx08
23-05-11, 22:46
That's ridiculous, is identifying yourself as either male or female that big a deal?

Mad Tony
23-05-11, 22:46
I don't get what you mean.This kid is either a boy or a girl (we obviously don't know). It's wrong to raise this child as "genderless" when this child actually does have a gender.

Simochka
23-05-11, 22:49
I don't know what to say.

They don't have to tell people what their child have between its legs and I hate the fact that the world is divided into male and female.

But this is pretty weird o.O

larafan25
23-05-11, 22:50
This kid is either a boy or a girl (we obviously don't know). It's wrong to raise this child as "genderless" when this child actually does have a gender.

Obviously they know it has a penis or vagina and they aren't hiding it. However if you meet Storm on the street, what do you do? Say "Hey! I can't tell what you are, are you a boy or girl?" or walk up to Storm and lift up his or her skirt.

It's not like the kid is being forced to keep his or her mouth shut anyways. They said when Storm wants to tell people they can.

So perhaps this means if the kid is trans-gender then it will be easier for them.

!Lara Croft!
23-05-11, 22:54
"If Storm wants to tell people Storm can."

But does storm even know? Does Storm know what is expected of a boy and whats expected of a girl? And their boys with long hair and dresses arent being what boys are. How will they fit in with the other boys at school? Its just setting their kids up to be bullied.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:00
"If Storm wants to tell people Storm can."

But does storm even know? Does Storm know what is expected of a boy and whats expected of a girl? And their boys with long hair and dresses arent being what boys are. How will they fit in with the other boys at school? Its just setting their kids up to be bullied.

What are boys?

I have a penis and wear my shorts above the knee.

I'd rather play Lara Croft than Football.

It may not seem like a big problem now, however when babies are eventually being Bioengineered it will be a problem if they are packaged on shelves with either a football or a tutu.:pi:

I'd like to know what is or isn't setting a child up for bullying. Are you going to be the one bullying the boy for wearing a skirt and not a kilt?:mis:

I was bullied for playing with dolls and drawing girls.

I'm here, 16 years old. Still breathing and I haven't had any need to play or hang with boys. I've no aversion to them, however it took a while to find one who was willing to get along with me and possibly had shared interests.

My interests and characteristics are not forced. They are natural.

Mad Tony
23-05-11, 23:03
Obviously they know it has a penis or vagina and they aren't hiding it. However if you meet Storm on the street, what do you do? Say "Hey! I can't tell what you are, are you a boy or girl?" or walk up to Storm and lift up his or her skirt.

It's not like the kid is being forced to keep his or her mouth shut anyways. They said when Storm wants to tell people they can.

So perhaps this means if the kid is trans-gender then it will be easier for them.Do you not think it's unfair that they're specifically concealing what sex this poor kid is? It's not going to have any idea what gender is which is definitely not a good thing. It's definitely one or the other and hiding it from it is cruel. Sex isn't a man-made thing.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:07
Do you not think it's unfair that they're specifically concealing what sex this poor kid is?

No. They've said when Storm wants he or she can tell. For now nobody knows and it's not hurting anybody. If you want to buy Storm a gift Mad Tony, perhaps you should settle for money?:mis:

Or just ask what they're interested in. Hey, how about that! Asking about someone's interests before their gender. :eek:

It's not going to have any idea what gender is which is definitely not a good thing. It's definitely one or the other and hiding it from it is cruel. Sex isn't a man-made thing.

There are people in this world who identify as Male or Female and have the opposite attachments.

!Lara Croft!
23-05-11, 23:07
larafan25, other than our opinions on the situation we sound quite alike, i used to play with dolls, i pretty much only draw girls and much prefer lara croft to sport. Im 15, a boy and i like art and classical music, also high literature and tomb raider.

Those seperated me from my peers, i was picked on and bullied. I ended up having no friends, i had my TR and my music, but i was lonely.

So, when i switched schools i tried to 'fix' myself to fit and blend in. I practiced 'slang' and undid my top button (both figuratively and literally) and what do you know, suddenly i had friends. I started going to peoples houses, having sleepovers and playing games. I had never been happier.

Mad Tony
23-05-11, 23:11
No. They've said when Storm wants he or she can tell. For now nobody knows and it's not hurting anybody. If you want to buy Storm a gift Mad Tony, perhaps you should settle for money?:mis:

Or just ask what they're interested in. Hey, how about that! Asking about someone's interests before their gender. :eek:Storm isn't even going to know what its sex/gender is. This isn't about something trivial like interests.

There are people in this world who identify as Male or Female and have the opposite attachments.What people identify themselves as is irrelevant. Storm is either biologically a male or a female. Males and females both have separate issues with their bodies when they're growing up (e.g. puberty). Knowing what sex you are is crucial. Whether these nutters want to admit that is another thing.

Quasimodo
23-05-11, 23:11
This kid is either a boy or a girl (we obviously don't know). It's wrong to raise this child as "genderless" when this child actually does have a gender.
Gender is a social construct. You don't have a gender, you're given one. That's where we get the idea of gender roles, etc.

Maybe you're thinking of sex (as in XX chromosomes or XY chromosomes), which is biological.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:14
We sound quite alike, i used to play with dolls, i pretty much only draw girls and much prefer lara croft to sport.

I made my dolls go on spy missions and had them kick each other's butts. I pretty much only draw girls because I have a better understanding of the anatomy and more skill and practice with drawing them. I'd rather go out and climb rocks and raid tombs than sit down and play Tomb Raider. The fun isn't in dressing Lara up.

For the record, Im 15, a boy and i have never been fond of sports. I like art and classical music, also high literature and tomb raider. Those seperated me from my peers, i was picked on and bullied. I ended up having no friends, i had my TR and my music, but i was lonely.

Darn. Kathy and David did a terrible job.:(

My point here is, these things are not forced. It's who you are. Your parents didn't do it.

So, when i switched schools i tried to 'fix' myself to fit and blend in. I practiced 'slang' and undid my top button (both figuratively and literally) and what do you know, suddenly i had friends. I started going to peoples houses, having sleepovers and playing games. I had never been happier.

You've practically allowed yourself to be framed for someone else's crime.

I never tried to fix myself.

I got made fun of for drawing Lara Croft at least once a week at school.

Then a girl in my class called my in the summer asking for help to complete Tomb Raider Legend.

My god, I'm practically praised in high school for simply being.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:17
Storm isn't even going to know what its sex/gender is. This isn't about something trivial like interests.

Storm can see his or her body and see what it is. That's that.

It's not like the second the kid looks down there they suddenly know "I need to sleep with women!" Or "Trucks! i love trucks!" or even "Oh God, what am I doing out here? I should be in the kitchen!"

No. When the child sees his or her privates he or she will simply know it's attached to them.

What people identify themselves as is irrelevant. Storm is either biologically a male or a female. Males and females both have separate issues with their bodies when they're growing up (e.g. puberty). Knowing what sex you are is crucial. Whether these nutters want to admit that is another thing.

You are really misunderstanding this, I think.

edit: ****! I double posted, sooo sooo sorry mods!:/

Mad Tony
23-05-11, 23:22
Storm can see his or her body and see what it is. That's that.

It's not like the second the kid looks down there they suddenly know "I need to sleep with women!" Or "Trucks! i love trucks!" or even "Oh God, what am I doing out here? I should be in the kitchen!"

No. When the child sees his or her privates he or she will simply know it's attached to them.I don't know why you keep on bringing interests into this. Gender roles have nothing to do with what I'm saying. Storm will see what genitalia it has but if for example it's a girl it wont know that it can give birth. Similarly, if it's a boy it wont know that it can't give birth.

You are really misunderstanding this, I think.No, I think it's the other way around. At least, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

!Lara Croft!
23-05-11, 23:26
Does Storm even know that a penis means 'boy'?

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:27
^Does a penis mean 'boy'?

I'm sure the child will be taught penis vs. vagina physique.

I don't know why you keep on bringing interests into this.

Because that is what this is about. Gender stereotypes and roles. The parents are trying to avoid having their children pushed into these roles. They don't want their children to feel as though they can't express themselves the way they truly are because society says their gender cannot be like that. Which it does.

Gender roles have nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Ok, but they have everything to do with the article.

Storm will see what genitalia it has but if for example it's a girl it wont know that it can give birth. Similarly, if it's a boy it wont know that it can't give birth.

Since when is the child not going to know it's own genitalia? And I do hope he or she will have sex ed.

No, I think it's the other way around. At least, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

I probably don't. I always get the raw end of everyone's argument.

!Lara Croft!
23-05-11, 23:32
^Does a penis mean 'boy'?

Yes, yes it does.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:33
Yes, yes it does.

Physically, perhaps.

lara c. fan
23-05-11, 23:35
Physically, perhaps.

Biologically, too.

KyleCroft
23-05-11, 23:35
'WELL IF YOU DONT BUY ME THIS TOY, ILL TELL EVERYONE I HAVE A PEEPEE!'

Pretty much whats gonna happen in the future.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:36
Biologically, too.

True!

'WELL IF YOU DONT BUY ME THIS TOY, ILL TELL EVERYONE I HAVE A PEEPEE!'

Pretty much whats gonna happen in the future.

LOL

Encore
23-05-11, 23:36
Why must those previously discriminated must forcibly turn the table on the rest and suddenly make words like "male", "female" or "straight" become just as demonized as "gay" or "transexual" were before?

Mad Tony
23-05-11, 23:37
I'm sure the child will be taught penis vs. vagina physique.No, they wont. If they're keeping this kids sex secret from it then they're not going to teach it that.

Because that is what this is about. Gender stereotypes and roles. The parents are trying to avoid having their children pushed into these roles. They don't want their children to feel as though they can't express themselves the way they truly are because society says their gender cannot be like that. Which it does.

Ok, but they have everything to do with the article.Clearly you haven't even read the article properly.

When Storm was born, the couple sent an email to friends and family: “We've decided not to share Storm's sex for now"This is not just about gender. This is about concealing a child's biological sex from itself.

Since when is the child not going to know it's own genitalia? And I do hope he or she will have sex ed. Oh so the child is suddenly going to know all of these things about reproduction simply by looking at their genitalia? Come off it.

patriots88888
23-05-11, 23:38
Because that is what this is about. Gender stereotypes and roles. The parents are trying to avoid having their children pushed into these roles. They don't want their children to feel as though they can't express themselves the way they truly are because society says their gender cannot be like that. Which it does.

Society has made huge progress in this respect (more female participation in 'male' sports, stay at home dads, etc...) though and I don't believe it had anything to do with concealing childrens' gender. It's about changing our collective views in this regard and choosing to accept that.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:47
^Yes, our society has made huge progress.

No, they wont. If they're keeping this kids sex secret from it then they're not going to teach it that.

Clearly you haven't even read the article properly.

This is not just about gender. This is about concealing a child's biological sex from itself.

Oh so the child is suddenly going to know all of these things about reproduction simply by looking at their genitalia? Come off it.

/ Anything I was about to say.

I re-read the entire article and do not see what you are saying. At all. I'm sorry I just do not see how you got what you did out of the article.

Dennis's Mom
23-05-11, 23:49
This is as asinine as naming your child some unpronounceable symbol. It's just a silly way to try to opt out of things that make society work.

There's a multitude of reasons to reveal your child's sex: identification, for one. Understanding your body's biology. There are boys and there are girls. It's nature. Pretending it isn't happening is not going to make it not happen.

There's no question that pushing the boundaries of gender roles is a worthwhile occupation. This pushes nothing. This is simply making some child's life an avant garde art project. Even Yoko never did that.

dream raider
23-05-11, 23:49
I don't see why anyone should know the child's gender anyway. If the parents want to keep it secret, I don't think that's illogical and I tend to agree with what larafan25 has to say. Anyway, it'll become obvious what the child actually is as it grows up.

larafan25
23-05-11, 23:51
I don't see why anyone should know the child's gender anyway. If the parents want to keep it secret, I don't think that's illogical and I tend to agree with what larafan25 has to say. Anyway, it'll become obvious what the child actually is as it grows up.

I agree.

I don't think they are trying to shelter their child from any sort of sexual education or from learning about their bodies. They are simply allowing them to...be....without the influence of "gender".

I'm being extremely cautious if anyone can't tell. :pi:

patriots88888
24-05-11, 00:17
They are simply allowing them to...be....without the influence of "gender".

But the point Dennis's Mom and I are trying to make is that these parents don't have to be so extravagant about it... it's completely unnecessary. There are plenty of role models (as well as common, everyday people) for children to identify with these days who have 'broken the gender mold', so to speak. If Storm was to be the first to do that, then it might be a bit more understandable... maybe.

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:21
But the point Dennis's Mom and I are trying to make is that these parents don't have to be so extravagant about it... it's completely unnecessary. There are plenty of role models (as well as common, everyday people) for children to identify with these days who have 'broken the gender mold', so to speak. If Storm was to be the first to do that, then it might be a bit more understandable... maybe.

So you are saying that parents not telling other people the gender of their child is more extravagant then ....perhaps...David Bowie?:/

The children themselves don't need to exaggerate themselves to show that they are do not fit the stereotype. They just need to be allowed the space to find themselves on their own without some other influence.

It's not like the parents are forcing the boys into dresses and vise versa. They aren't trying to force anything.

I might be misunderstanding something. Just a disclaimer.

erosan
24-05-11, 00:22
Mod edit: spam removed

patriots88888
24-05-11, 00:22
So you are saying that parents not telling other people the gender of their child is more extravagant then ....perhaps...David Bowie?:/

The children themselves don't need to exaggerate themselves to show that they are do not fit the stereotype. They just need to be allowed the space to find themselves on their own without some other influence.

It's not like the parents are forcing the boys into dresses and vise versa. They aren't trying to force anything.

I might be misunderstanding something. Just a disclaimer.

By concealing the gender, I'm not convinced they are simply allowing Storm to be.

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:24
By concealing the gender, I'm not convinced they are simply allowing Storm to be.

I have to be brutally honest. I don't know what you mean. I just don't see what is being left out here by concealing the child's gender. Is it what the child is missing? Or is it what other people are missing by not getting an answer?:/

Encore
24-05-11, 00:25
The children themselves don't need to exaggerate themselves to show that they are do not fit the stereotype. They just need to be allowed the space to find themselves on their own without some other influence.


Here's where you're wrong: children can't be "allowed the space to find themselves on their own". They need to be nurtured and educated about life and the world. You're talking about adolescence, but this is a child we're discussing.

Catracoth
24-05-11, 00:28
Wow.

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:28
Here's where you're wrong: children can't be "allowed the space to find themselves on their own". They need to be nurtured and educated about life and the world. You're talking about adolescence, but this is a child we're discussing.

By "space to find themselves" I don't mean to go on a trip around the world to eat, pray, and love. I simply mean crawling over to either the truck or the baby doll.

That's as simple as it was meant.

Of course they need to be nurtured and educated.

Cochrane
24-05-11, 00:30
I can see some of their motivation, but I think that this method is probably not the right way to go about it.

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:32
I can see some of their motivation, but I think that this method is probably not the right way to go about it.

Probably doesn't need to be a way to go about it. I mean, I was different and I still "found myself" and have an identity.

However that being said, I'm not comfortable to go out in public wearing a dress. :pi:

!Lara Croft!
24-05-11, 00:32
So if Storm doesnt have a gender...which bathroom will __ use?

Also we cant use proper english as 'they' is more than one person. We will refer to something as he, she or it. Seeing as calling someone 'it' is derogatory a problem arises.

Also whats with letting her sons shop for clothes in the girls department? I suppose they use the changing rooms there too? If so then how are they supposed to know not to use the girls bathrooms and showers? Or is that a 'gender steriotype'?

patriots88888
24-05-11, 00:34
I have to be brutally honest. I don't know what you mean. I just don't see what is being left out here by concealing the child's gender. Is it what the child is missing? Or is it what other people are missing by not getting an answer?:/

The point is, this 'gender role influence' is just a misconception by the parents that is being projected upon this child. Maybe they could trust Storm a bit more to make his/her own decisions without this need to be so deceptive about it. It's true that most likely this won't have any adverse effects, but why bother in the first place? It seems to me like this is more of a trust issue than it is about gender. Maybe they don't trust society either? *shrugs*

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:38
^To me it simply seems like parents not telling people their child's gender. :/ Allowing the sons to shop in the girl department, their own decisions, etc...

It's simply not saying "Ok honey, you're a boy so you must go over here with the blue colours and pants".

So if Storm doesn't have a gender...which bathroom will __ use?


When I was extremely young my mom took me into the women's washroom so I didn't get abducted.

However that's a good question. Which one?:/

Also we cant use proper english as 'they' is more than one person. We will refer to something as he, she or it. I dont think anyone should be called 'it' and so thats where knowing the gender comes in.

Probably the least of their worries. You could call he or she (s)he. As suggested in the article (if memory serves me).

Also whats with letting her sons shop for clothes in the girls department? I suppose they use the changing rooms there too? If so then how are they supposed to know not to use the girls bathrooms and showers? Or is that a 'gender steriotype'?

God wouldn't it be awkward if you had to change in the same room with someone! Luckily the change rooms (at least the one's I've experienced in stores) are divided into private stalls.

I'm sure the reason they let their sons shop in the girls department is to provide a wider variety of choices.

The other day I was in Urban Planet and saw the nicest pair of pants ever (sort of like the ones Chloe wears in Uncharted) on a girl manikin in the women' section! I knew they'd look good on me.

I'm sure the same issues occur with trans-gender children. I'm not sure how they are worked out though. It's all very confusing.

Encore
24-05-11, 00:45
So if Storm doesnt have a gender...which bathroom will __ use?

Also we cant use proper english as 'they' is more than one person. We will refer to something as he, she or it. Seeing as calling someone 'it' is derogatory a problem arises.

Also whats with letting her sons shop for clothes in the girls department? I suppose they use the changing rooms there too? If so then how are they supposed to know not to use the girls bathrooms and showers? Or is that a 'gender steriotype'?

It's mind boggling. I'm not sure where exactly will the line be drawn. As someone else said before, nature divided us into boys and girls, what's the point in pretending it isn't so? Your mind is free and when you grow old enough you should be free to assume your sexual orientation or even change your gender if you want. That's all fine. But is there any need to distort a fact of nature, that there are boys and there are girls?

Apathetic
24-05-11, 00:46
I think the real question is..... who cares?

!Lara Croft!
24-05-11, 00:48
And how exactly do you pronouce (s)he?

"And how is bracket-s-bracket-he today?"

Also wouldnt that indicate transgender?

Even with transgender kids they will usually assume the most prominent gender in them and stick to it.

The changing rooms in the mall are divided yes, but what about at the pool? They arent.

Occasionally there are items of clothing in the other gender's department that could easily be in both, such as those trousers. But those boys arent just buying a particular pair of trousers which could also be mistaken for being from the boys department, they are buying dresses.

I also used to go with my mum into the womens bathroom, but thats only acceptable till you are about 4 to 5 years of age. (but i only went into the womens with mum if we were out without dad, if he were with us he would take me into the mens.)

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:48
It's mind boggling. I'm not sure where exactly will the line be drawn. As someone else said before, nature divided us into boys and girls, what's the point in pretending it isn't so? Your mind is free and when you grow old enough you should be free to assume your sexual orientation or even change your gender if you want. That's all fine. But is there any need to distort a fact of nature, that there are boys and there are girls?

Perhaps the idea of there being your physical gender and your psychological gender. One overpowering the other. A young girl (physically/ biologically) saying "No I'm a boy, I should be allowed to change in there".

IDK.

And how exactly do you pronouce (s)he?

"And how is bracket-s-bracket-he today?"

Also wouldnt that indicate transgender?

Even with transgender kids they will usually assume the most prominent gender in them and stick to it.

The changing rooms in the mall are divided yes, but what about at the pool? They arent.

Occasionally there are items of clothing in the other gender's department that could easily be in both, such as those trousers. But those boys arent just buying a particular pair of trousers which could also be mistaken for being from the boys department, they are buying dresses.

I also used to go with my mum into the womens bathroom, but thats only acceptable till you are about 4 to 5 years of age. (but i only went into the womens with mum if we were out without dad, if he were with us he would take me into the mens.)

I assume that's what these children will do. As the parent's have said they are letting them decide.

/Me thinking everyone has made this slightly more complex than it truly is.

What's your problem with boys wearing dressing? I honestly cannot understand or accept (I'll learn to tolerate) the opinion.

Apathetic
24-05-11, 00:51
Let me reiterate, who cares? Lmao.

miss.haggard
24-05-11, 00:52
Whats the point? I mean... really? Why freaking bother.

WHAT ****ING BATHROOM IS HE GOING TO USE IN PUBLIC? You think women are going to be ok with a guy whipping out his dongle, or a girl popping a squat in the urinal? They aren't going to think, "Oh, gender equality YAY! Free love, ponies, and rainbows!" That kid is going to get his ass ****ing handed to him like the lady who was beat in the McDonalds restaurant.

!Lara Croft!
24-05-11, 00:52
What's your problem with boys wearing dressing? I honestly cannot understand or accept (I'll learn to tolerate) the opinion.

Because boys arent supposed to wear dresses with pretty lace and such as they are feminine, as in for the female. We have male and female for a reason, and each gender has its exclusive assets.

Encore
24-05-11, 00:52
Perhaps the idea of there being your physical gender and your psychological gender. One overpowering the other.

Yes but that's what I think is happening ATM. In free societies, it is now almost generally accepted that your physical gender doesn't define your psychological development. Ergo, there is nothing wrong in calling yourself a boy or a girl because it's not the "end all be all" definition of yourself.

A young girl (physically/ biologically) saying "No I'm a boy, I should be allowed to change in there".

IDK.

Maybe I can use that excuse to see naked boys in the pool's changing rooms then. :cln:

Seriously, that's pathetic, if the girl has a female body I'm sure she doesn't exactly feel uncomfortable around other females, so there's no reason why she should refuse to be there.

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:52
Whats the point? I mean... really? Why freaking bother.

WHAT ****ING BATHROOM IS HE GOING TO USE IN PUBLIC? You think women are going to be ok with a guy whipping out his dongle, or a girl popping a squat in the urinal?

Who the fudge would even? :confused:

larafan25
24-05-11, 00:55
Yes but that's what I think is happening ATM. In free societies, it is now almost generally accepted that your physical gender doesn't define your psychological development. Ergo, there is nothing wrong in calling yourself a boy or a girl because it's not the "end all be all" definition of yourself.


Yes, of course.:)

Maybe I can use that excuse to see naked boys in the pool's changing rooms then. :cln:

Maybe I don't need that excuse.:cln:

Seriously, that's pathetic, if the girl has a female body I'm sure she doesn't exactly feel uncomfortable around other females, so there's no reason why she should refuse to be there.

I'm sure if she doesn't feel all gooey inside about them, then it would be fine.:)

Dresses with pretty lace and such are feminine, as in for the female.

Your argument is fluff.

edit: OH MY GOODNESS!

I did it again. I'm sorry. I feel helpless right now. From this moment on I will never double post again. I promise. I had the intention of copying this message and editing it into the other, I just got caught up and forgot!

!Lara Croft!
24-05-11, 00:59
Just because im unable to argue my case that the kid should have a gender (never developed debating/argueing the skill) doesnt mean it isnt wrong that ___ doesnt.

larafan25
24-05-11, 01:01
Just because im unable to argue my case that the kid should have a gender (never developed debating/argueing the skill) doesnt mean it isnt wrong that ___ doesnt.

That's not what I was getting at.

I'm talking about dresses.

Perhaps frilly pink things are conveniently located in the girl section of clothing stores for the fact that the majority of the female population likes them.

It's not about being assigned what to wear. It's about liking what you wear (and it's appropriateness in certain settings).

I once enjoyed wearing dresses. Until of course I feel down the stairs in one.

patriots88888
24-05-11, 01:10
I'm not understanding why this topic has steered in the direction of sexuality. This is about 'gender roles' which aren't limited to how one feels about themselves in any sexual way. Straight men and straight women have broken and continue to break the perceived 'gender mold' all the time. The idea of a female President or daddy staying at home to take care of the children while mommy is out running her business was unheard of (or at least frowned upon in the second example) until society made the conscious decision to accept these changes, thankfully.

Aphrodite22
24-05-11, 01:16
interesting ... experiment....

CiaKonwerski
24-05-11, 01:23
I honestly do not find it that odd. They are just not telling everyone whether or not the child is a boy or a girl, there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe they do not want others to treat the child differently after being told the child is a boy or a girl. It is not like the parents are saying she is not a girl. Because they know she is, they just do not feel like telling everyone. Not sure how it is weird. :/ I find that this way Storm can grow up without feeling the need to like this or that because of her gender or whatever. I am sure all will go well in the future but for right now it is not really a big deal.

larafan25
24-05-11, 01:31
I honestly do not find it that odd. They are just not telling everyone whether or not the child is a boy or a girl, there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe they do not want others to treat the child differently after being told the child is a boy or a girl. It is not like the parents are saying she is not a girl. Because they know she is, they just do not feel like telling everyone. Not sure how it is weird. :/ I find that this way Storm can grow up without feeling the need to like this or that because of her gender or whatever. I am sure all will go well in the future but for right now it is not really a big deal.

/All my efforts

So ....clear...concise....AMAZING. >_>

patriots88888
24-05-11, 01:32
It is not like the parents are saying she is not a girl. Because they know she is, they just do not feel like telling everyone

How did you discover Storm's gender?

CiaKonwerski
24-05-11, 01:38
How did you discover Storm's gender?

I meant her sex not her gender. They are two different things I understand this. This is from someone who thinks they are transgendered so I can see the point of this parent's doing.

@larafan25- :tmb:

patriots88888
24-05-11, 01:42
I meant her sex not her gender. They are two different things I understand this. This is from someone who thinks they are transgendered so I can see the point of this parent's doing.

At any rate, they are not doing a good job at concealing it then. Which leads me to believe this is more about the parents wanting to bring attention to themselves rather than out of any genuine concern for their child to 'live their own life' or 'simply be' without this.

CiaKonwerski
24-05-11, 01:44
At any rate, they are not doing a good job at concealing it then. Which leads me to believe this is more about the parents wanting to bring attention to themselves rather than out of any genuine concern for their child to 'live their own life' or 'simply be' without this.

I see what you mean considering the article, they obviously told other people but I am not sure. I do not really think the parents want it on themselves though. I guess we will just have to see how it pans out. But whatever this child's parent's reasoning is, I do not find it weird if other parents want to do this with their children because personally I think it is interesting. But then again, the child's SEX is not a secret. They are just not putting the gender on anything right? I did not read the entire article but that is what I am assuming

Lizard of Oz
24-05-11, 02:37
I read the method and I liked some of their ideas... but I don't think revealing their gender is such a big deal.

scremanie
24-05-11, 03:14
Who are these people any way? They act as if everyone wants or needs to know the gender of this child, as if they can't even go out in public with everyone looking at them and wondering if this baby is a boy or girl.

If I seen them walking down the street, I wouldn't even think anything of it, simply because I have no clue who they are. What do they expect to achieve from this? The child is going to know if it's a boy or girl in the future. Nowadays, it's hard to shield children from things like, oh say... Google. Storm can just google "Boy" or "Girl" and see that a boy has a penis, a girl has a vagina, and then within a few clicks they'll be learning how many sex positions there are.

With most babies, it's hard to tell the gender any way. I seriously have no idea what this family is trying to achieve, except 5 minutes of fame.

Ikas90
24-05-11, 03:27
It looks to me that they're trying to get the child to recognise it's own gender by nature, rather than by the influence of society.

I don't think it'll work. We're humans. We need education to survive, because our survival is dependent on intelligence, not instinct.

Tear
24-05-11, 03:58
That's ****in' awesome!:tmb:

All these 'gender roles' are ridiculous. I'm absolutely supportive.

cezy rockeru
24-05-11, 04:24
That's just weird.

Avalon SARL
24-05-11, 06:22
“In fact, in not telling the gender of my precious baby, I am saying to the world, ‘Please can you just let Storm discover for him/herself what s (he) wants to be?!.” Witterick writes in an email.

This is the most ridiculous thing ever

It is life...

everything is divided into two...

Alpha and Omega, black and white,yin and yang, male and female, positive and negative...

Someone better tell them to GET REAL

remote91
24-05-11, 06:26
That's different.. I respect it, but it's definitely.. odd.

Sharon_14
24-05-11, 06:33
trololol "gender-free baby" my butt, do they want their children to have mental issues when they grow up? D:

dream raider
24-05-11, 06:34
This is the most ridiculous thing ever

It is life...

everything is divided into two...

Alpha and Omega, black and white,yin and yang, male and female, positive and negative...

Someone better tell them to GET REAL

If everything is so clear, and black and white to you...

wait till you see PINK!!!:eek:

EscondeR
24-05-11, 06:35
Too much free time at their hands... and attention seeking.
But, whatever rocks their socks...

I just hope the child won't get any troubles because its (heh-heh) parents had nothing better to do when it was a baby.

Avalon SARL
24-05-11, 06:46
If everything is so clear, and black and white to you...

wait till you see PINK!!!:eek:
:p

LOL...but this isn't about colors at all... you know that.

It is just they way of the world...

Reminds me of Genesis song:

Why is there blue sky
why is there red sky,
now's the time to ask the reason,
should the blue sky, meet the red sky
should the rules have to change at all
we all know whatever they say, time is on our side
Ooh this world has been here before just going round and round

We all agree as far as we can see
It's just the way of the world,
that's how it's meant to be
There's right and there's wrong
There's weak - oh and there's strong
It's just the way of the world
and that's how it's meant to be

scoopy_loopy
24-05-11, 09:04
The kid is going to learn pretty quickly what sex it is, anyway - I assume the parents just wont that their child won't have learnt typical gender roles by the time it does. In the end, I guess I see no real harm in this, apart from the fact the kid may be bullied if this news story is ever remembered by them time s/he goes to school (and frankly, if the kid ever asks what sex it is, I think the parents should tell him or her -- it's as obvious as a hair colour anyway...).

toxicraider
24-05-11, 09:10
That's really weird; I don't think the children will choose what gender they are, the fact that people are assuming their sons are girls will only make them think they are girls, rather than actually choosing to be girls, so they'll probably end up having a sex change. That non-schooling idea is ridiculous; I would actually like my kids to be able to get a job when they're older, it doesn't even sound like these kids will be literate.

Rai
24-05-11, 10:20
The kid is going to learn pretty quickly what sex it is, anyway - I assume the parents just wont that their child won't have learnt typical gender roles by the time it does. In the end, I guess I see no real harm in this, apart from the fact the kid may be bullied if this news story is ever remembered by them time s/he goes to school (and frankly, if the kid ever asks what sex it is, I think the parents should tell him or her -- it's as obvious as a hair colour anyway...).

Well physically speaking it'll be obvious as they'll be pointing at their boy or girl parts. My son was well impressed with his little 'willy' aged about 2. Whatever gender they are, sooner or later it's going to become an issue. Like when s/he's in school and s/he needs the toilet. A teacher is bound to tell him which one to use: the little boys room or the little girls room.

'My willy is for potty.' 'that's right.' 'but Marie doesn't have one. Why mummy?' 'Because sh...Marie is different to you.' 'Why mummy?' 'Because. Because...go to your room.' :pi:

irishhips
24-05-11, 10:26
Bit stupid

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 10:36
It's mind boggling. I'm not sure where exactly will the line be drawn. As someone else said before, nature divided us into boys and girls, what's the point in pretending it isn't so? Your mind is free and when you grow old enough you should be free to assume your sexual orientation or even change your gender if you want. That's all fine. But is there any need to distort a fact of nature, that there are boys and there are girls?This sums it up for me. Why can't they just explain to Storm what it is (girl or a boy) and then emphasize that it doesn't have to conform to that it doesn't have to conform to gender roles?

Forwen
24-05-11, 11:33
I thought the point of gender and sex equality was that a person's gender or sex were irrelevant in how the world treats them; that in short, it's no big deal. And I feel those parents managed to make a HUGE deal out of their child's sex, whether it was their intention or not, by acting over the top.

I've never been to Canada but I find it hard to believe gender equality is an issue there.

interstellardave
24-05-11, 11:51
^^^ Ironic, isn't it, Forwen?

It's just like the feminist movement... it started out as "women can be anything, do anything they want"... and men couldn't tell you what to do! Eventually, however, it was some women telling other women what they could and couldn't do--and should and shouldn't do--based on what was good for "womens' progress".

I agree with what I read somewhere regarding this... by not choosing to reveal the babies sex they've still made a choice; the outcome is not necessarily as rosy as they imagine it to be, however. Only time will tell.

Dennis's Mom
24-05-11, 12:07
By concealing the gender, I'm not convinced they are simply allowing Storm to be.

I'm just concerned they're so in love with their art project they're forgetting the fact that loving, supportive, communicative parenting is the best antidote to society's foibles.

Not revealing the sex is really a game. I see no advantage that good parenting wouldn't provide without the awkward "oh, I can't tell you because you're going to do something horrible and irreparable to my child with that knowledge."

Seems to me offering a backhand to your friends, neighbors, co-workers, healthcare providers, teachers, etc., is probably going to stigmatize your child a bit more than say . . . gifts in the color of pink.

Super Badnik
24-05-11, 13:46
I don't get the their angle. Are they making some sort of elaborate statement on gender identity or are they just fed up with people questioning the gender of newborns? Either way this seems a bit silly.

NRO.
24-05-11, 14:35
What is this I don't even...

So they're going to chop off the child's genitals and turn him to a mannequinn? I'm Atheist but now I wanna yell "God gave people genitals to see the difference between genders." You are either a girl or a boy. This article has damaged my ability to form words... oh boy...

*brain explodes*

cbragg09
24-05-11, 14:59
Seems like they are freely letting their children chose to be homosexual or not.

Im not trying to say every boy who wears pink is gay, but little boys who dress up, wear dresses, paint their fingernails and wear earrings, is a good indication of more estrogen and that female mindset which normally leads to a gay lifestyle.


Im gay, and I opted for barbies, lipstick, and bright colors when I was a child too and my twin brother, who is 100% not gay, was the exact opposite and while not to the extreme, our parents normally let us freely choose our own toys and entertainment

Dennis's Mom
24-05-11, 15:00
I don't get the their angle. Are they making some sort of elaborate statement on gender identity or are they just fed up with people questioning the gender of newborns? Either way this seems a bit silly.

You know, I get it on some level. I'm a big Yoko Ono fan, and I totally get the concept of things like bagism. Art that makes you think is great.

But this is a child's life. I think it's wrong to make a statement out of your kid's life.

toxicraider
24-05-11, 15:11
Seems like they are freely letting their children chose to be homosexual or not.

Im not trying to say every boy who wears pink is gay, but little boys who dress up, wear dresses, paint their fingernails and wear earrings, is a good indication of more estrogen and that female mindset which normally leads to a gay lifestyle.


Im gay, and I opted for barbies, lipstick, and bright colors when I was a child too and my twin brother, who is 100% not gay, was the exact opposite and while not to the extreme, our parents normally let us freely choose our own toys and entertainment

Thing is, nobody really knows if letting your sons act as girls would make them end up gay or even trans-gendered, because most parents are never going to be willing to let their children be brought up as the wrong gender just as an experiment. That is essentially what these people are doing; experimenting with their children's lives.

Not to mention. the statement they are trying to make; that the way a person adopts gender is a product of being influenced by others is already quite obvious; clearly a girl brought up in isolation would not want to paint her nails, which is something that is influenced by other people. Anyway, these children are not even making their own decisions anyway; The boys are called princesses, so are being treated as girls by other people, plus the second and third child will be influenced by the oldest child's preference for girly things.

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 15:17
Seems like they are freely letting their children chose to be homosexual or not.

Im not trying to say every boy who wears pink is gay, but little boys who dress up, wear dresses, paint their fingernails and wear earrings, is a good indication of more estrogen and that female mindset which normally leads to a gay lifestyle.


Im gay, and I opted for barbies, lipstick, and bright colors when I was a child too and my twin brother, who is 100% not gay, was the exact opposite and while not to the extreme, our parents normally let us freely choose our own toys and entertainmentThis has got very little to do with sexuality.

Legend 4ever
24-05-11, 15:38
larafan25, other than our opinions on the situation we sound quite alike, i used to play with dolls, i pretty much only draw girls and much prefer lara croft to sport. Im 15, a boy and i like art and classical music, also high literature and tomb raider.

Those seperated me from my peers, i was picked on and bullied. I ended up having no friends, i had my TR and my music, but i was lonely.

So, when i switched schools i tried to 'fix' myself to fit and blend in. I practiced 'slang' and undid my top button (both figuratively and literally) and what do you know, suddenly i had friends. I started going to peoples houses, having sleepovers and playing games. I had never been happier.
So you're saying changing who you are to fit the gender stereotypes the society has offered us is a good thing? If it makes you feel better, I'm happy for you. It's pretty sad IMO.

However, I still think what these parents are doing is weird and it might confuse the child later on. If they're not born with ambiguous genitalia there is no reason for the parents to keep his or her sex a secret. Gender is a social construction and it's different from the term sex, which so many people overlook. Practically, no matter what the parents do, the kid will eventually construct his or her gender themselves, by interacting with the outside world and by introspection.

Seems like they are freely letting their children chose to be homosexual or not.

Im not trying to say every boy who wears pink is gay, but little boys who dress up, wear dresses, paint their fingernails and wear earrings, is a good indication of more estrogen and that female mindset which normally leads to a gay lifestyle.

Im gay, and I opted for barbies, lipstick, and bright colors when I was a child too and my twin brother, who is 100% not gay, was the exact opposite and while not to the extreme, our parents normally let us freely choose our own toys and entertainment

You played with Barbie dolls because you were gay. You did not "become" gay because you played with Barbie dolls.

What is this I don't even...

So they're going to chop off the child's genitals and turn him to a mannequinn? I'm Atheist but now I wanna yell "God gave people genitals to see the difference between genders." You are either a girl or a boy. This article has damaged my ability to form words... oh boy...

*brain explodes*
You do know that gender is not defined by genitals alone, right? And I know a lot of people who would challenge you on the "You're either girl or a boy." statement.

Because boys arent supposed to wear dresses with pretty lace and such as they are feminine, as in for the female. We have male and female for a reason, and each gender has its exclusive assets.
Have you ever heard of the word construct? What "femininity" is is a construct. What "masculinity" is is a construct. We were not given those by default, those were constructed during history. Did you know that going mad was considered a "normal" thing three hundred years ago. Who would let a crazy person live a "normal" life without any supervision nowadays? The point is, nothing is "natural" or "normal", people have decided it to be normal. Same goes for the "straight" and "gay" categories. People decided that the former will have the power and dominance over the latter, it's a learned thing, not something that's given to us as it is.

jackles
24-05-11, 16:55
I am torn on this issue.


Firstly because as a girl I didn't exactly conform to my gender stereotypes. I happily wore boys clothes and baseball boots in an age when it was rare. I was the classic tomboy. Even as an adult I preferred to be identified offically just by my initals so that I wasn't prejudged as a female. I also believe that my avatar is another symptom of my desire not to be judged as a fluffy female even though I might be exactly that. So I can understand that need to be judged as a person...a human being....not defined by my gender.

BUT..I was able to do this my self. I had the choice to do things my way. I think my mum just respected that I was an individual. There was no pressure on me to look a certain way or even act a certain way. But it was my decision. I did it naturally without it being imposed on me.

The first thing my son ever made from stickle bricks was a gun. There were no guns in the house, I don't even know where he got the idea from....but I was aware that even when he was born he was different from my daughter. (And I brought my daughter up to believe that she could do anything a boy could do!!) Yet if he had wanted to dress up as a girl I would have let him get on with it...but he didn't.

Saying that atleast two of the boys I played with as a child dressed up as girls with me(complete with long skirts and hats) quite openly..it was just seen as 'lark'. We even ventured out to the shops like it! :D

I believe that people should be free to express themselves....but I am not keen on the imposition of others ideas on children. Then it becomes an experiment....and some experiments go wrong.

larafan25
24-05-11, 20:31
I am torn on this issue.


Firstly because as a girl I didn't exactly conform to my gender stereotypes. I happily wore boys clothes and baseball boots in an age when it was rare. I was the classic tomboy. Even as an adult I preferred to be identified offically just by my initals so that I wasn't prejudged as a female. I also believe that my avatar is another symptom of my desire not to be judged as a fluffy female even though I might be exactly that. So I can understand that need to be judged as a person...a human being....not defined by my gender.


Whenever I see your avatar I think if Fluffy.:pi:

http://www.tombraiderwiki.com/images/thumb/5/55/Fluffy8_b.jpg/200px-Fluffy8_b.jpg

To me I think this entire practice takes on it's own form in everyone. In fact I think the only part of it which these parents are initiating or doing differently is not telling people their child's gender. That's all, the rest would come naturally anyhow, at least that's how it seems.

Uzi master
24-05-11, 22:26
So when parrents do things like chop off there sons forskin and force them to be whatever religion they are its "their children" but when they let there boys dress up in "girly" cloths and not teach them gender roles, something most parrents don't do, its now considered a travesty?

domino92
24-05-11, 22:34
I personally have two different opinions. Similar to jackles, I agree that it is right to create your own identity but.......

I was raised as a boy. Ive always been a fairly confident person. Until Grade 6 I was happy. Then I went to Intermediate school and all that changed. Everyone made it so you had to conform, or else you ended up being pointed at and excluded. I know because I had to change. The school was racist and homophobic, and I went along with it, telling myself I was like them and trying not to be left out.
I graduated and went off to High School and immediatly I was warmly greeted. I go to an arts school that is so awesome. Anyway, it was hard at first, since I brought myself to believe I wasnt like everyone in the school, since I thought they were the people I used to laugh at.
Then I began to open up, get more friends like that, and now I have opened up about my sexuality and I can now do everything I was afraid to do. I have completely changed as a person, and Im back to being happy.

Here's what I found out.
The people I was around determined who I was. At my Intermediate school I pretended to be something I wasnt to be happy (or at least not be miserable). So I can see where the parents are coming from. They're rasing their child in an environment where they're comfortable to make their own choices (which was High School for me). I dont think these parents are going to ruin their child. Ive seen much worse.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3565711/Mum-injects-her-girl-7-with-Botox.html#ixzz1LbpJ1QoP

These parents are letting their child decide what they want them to be, and in the end, I think isnt that the kind of society we want? A place where you get to decided who you want to be without discrimination? Ultimately their purpose is worth it, but their method is flawed. It wont work in our society, not yet.

leglion
24-05-11, 22:45
So when parrents do things like chop off there sons forskin and force them to be whatever religion they are its "their children" but when they let there boys dress up in "girly" cloths and not teach them gender roles, something most parrents don't do, its now considered a travesty?

lol i was gonna create a really long post but i deleted all that cuz this all sums it up. :vlol:

Simochka
24-05-11, 22:49
Seems like they are freely letting their children chose to be homosexual or not.

Im not trying to say every boy who wears pink is gay, but little boys who dress up, wear dresses, paint their fingernails and wear earrings, is a good indication of more estrogen and that female mindset which normally leads to a gay lifestyle.


Im gay, and I opted for barbies, lipstick, and bright colors when I was a child too and my twin brother, who is 100% not gay, was the exact opposite and while not to the extreme, our parents normally let us freely choose our own toys and entertainment

Wearing those stuffs won't make anyone gay.

Ever heard about the word "androgyne" ?

It's not like. "Hello son. I bought two outfits for you. Here's a blueshirt with blue jeans and here's a pink dress. Choose wisely cause it will affect you for the rest of your life"

\Tomb Raider/
24-05-11, 22:50
“If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs,” says Stocker.


I think its a great idea! it will prove to hetersexual people that we homosexuals do not choose our sexuality and gender < does that make any sense ? :p

trXD
24-05-11, 22:50
It's not right, it is the child's decision whether it wants to be genderless or not.

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 22:51
So when parrents do things like chop off there sons forskin and force them to be whatever religion they are its "their children" but when they let there boys dress up in "girly" cloths and not teach them gender roles, something most parrents don't do, its now considered a travesty?Lol, you bringing up religion. Shocker.

Anyway, it's not comparable to either of those (just to clarify, I'm very much against parents circumcising their children without a good reason and forcing a religion on them). This is more than just letting their child dress up in any clothes it wants and not teaching it gender roles.

“If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs,” says Stocker.


I think its a great idea! it will prove to hetersexual people that we homosexuals do not choose our sexuality and gender < does that make any sense ? :pWhy do people keep bringing sexuality up? It has nothing to do with that.

leglion
24-05-11, 22:57
It's not right, it is the child's decision whether it wants to be genderless or not.

You're missing the point. They're keeping the child genderless by not teaching him/her gender rolls or conform him/her to gender stereotypes. That means when they go to the toy store and he/she runs over to the boys/girls section and picks up a barbie or G.I joe, the parents don't so "HEY you're a boy, you can't play with that, it's for girls" or "HEY you're a girl, you can't play with that. It's only for boys." The child gets to choose what gender it wants to be whether it be a boy or a girl. If the child wants to tell people what gender it truly is, they can. The parents said that themselves which would imply they are teaching the child about his/her privates. I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, i think it's far better than conforming your child to a stereotype.

Rai
24-05-11, 23:00
Domino, it's one thing to feel at ease in your own skin and to be able to just be you and to not have to worry about what your sexuality is. but this isn't about sexuality is it? Sexuality isn't a choice. What sex you are born into isn't a choice either. You're born a boy or a girl. Now i realise that sometimes a person can be born a boy or girl and later in life choose to become the opposite. So in a way I understand that the parents are letting their children just be whatever feels natural. I can kind of see what these parents are doing, they're not allowing society to have preconceived ideas of their child's gender. Yet their sons are often confused for girls. No matter how hard the parents are trying, society will place them in one box or another. People like teachers etc will inevitably place him/her as a boy or girl when it comes to things like sending him to the 'correct' changing rooms or toilets. S/he will, until s/he's old enough to decide for themselves, be subject to being 'placed'. S/he may well end up confused, not knowing which way to turn as his parents no doubt will try and teach them that whatever body parts they have won't matter to how they feel. So where will the poor mite go when s/he wants a pee? Or to change for swimming? We don't live in a gender-less society. I can't help but wonder at how confusing it will be for him/her. Sooner or later, his body parts will matter - until he's what? a teenager? and can choose.

That was very difficult to type as I'm reluctant to use the term 'it'. :p

Ps: This thread just suddenly moved very quickly. Now I have to go over what's been said since domino's post :p.

Edit: As for telling the child what parts he has, and then saying you're a boy, but that doesn't matter: That's all well and dandy, but why not just do that yet in the mean time they're refusing to tell others if he's a boy or girl? This is where the confusion will come in. S/he needs to know he has boy or girl parts anyway - even if for practical reasons (like changing), but if he is a boy but has a liking for dolls and girls clothes etc and feels like a girl - so he'll think himself as a girl - but physically be a boy and others will eventually see that. It will be confusing. I guess that's whay they're keeping their kids out of school.

Simochka
24-05-11, 23:01
Lol, you bringing up religion. Shocker.

Anyway, it's not comparable to either of those (just to clarify, I'm very much against parents circumcising their children without a good reason and forcing a religion on them). This is more than just letting their child dress up in any clothes it wants and not teaching it gender roles.


He didn't compare them.

I just don't see what they are doing wrong? Is it so important to tell if your child have a penis or vagina?

And gender roles is so pointless. So stupid and made up entirely by humans

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:02
He didn't compare them.

I just don't see what they are doing wrong? Is it so important to tell if your child have a penis or vagina?

And gender roles is so pointless. So stupid and made up entirely by humansHe did. Read the post again.

So when parrents do things like chop off there sons forskin and force them to be whatever religion they are its "their children" but when they let there boys dress up in "girly" cloths and not teach them gender roles, something most parrents don't do, its now considered a travesty?That is comparing.

Simochka
24-05-11, 23:06
He did. Read the post again.

That is comparing.

No it's not. People call them bad parents because they see their child as a human instead of a walking sex.

But still many people thinks it's ok of parents to circumcise their baby and brainwash it with religion bull****.

How exactly is that comparing gender roles with circumcision?
It's just a way to explain how stupid people can be when thinking something horrible is ok and something that's not even a problem for anyone is wrong.

Capt. Murphy
24-05-11, 23:06
“If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs,” says Stocker.


I think its a great idea! it will prove to hetersexual people that we homosexuals do not choose our sexuality and gender < does that make any sense ? :p

It makes absolutely none. That's like a... (thinks of an example) A black crayon calling itself white. Or a wall calling itself a door (no matter how bad it wants to be one). :pi:

What I mean is!... Gender is gender. Sexuality is different. It's what is done (as in an act) or how one feels.



I wonder if someone could take these parents fingers and smash 'em with a hammer? I wonder if they'd tell you if it hurt or not? That's just an example. Not making any threats here that would be impossible to carry out anyway. I'm just saying. :rolleyes:

leglion
24-05-11, 23:09
Lol, you bringing up religion. Shocker.

Anyway, it's not comparable to either of those (just to clarify, I'm very much against parents circumcising their children without a good reason and forcing a religion on them). This is more than just letting their child dress up in any clothes it wants and not teaching it gender roles.

Why do people keep bringing sexuality up? It has nothing to do with that.

How isn't it comparable?

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:10
No it's not. People call them bad parents because they see their child as a human instead of a walking sex.

But still many people thinks it's ok of parents to circumcise their baby and brainwash it with religion bull****.

How exactly is that comparing gender roles with circumcision?
It's just a way to explain how stupid people can be when thinking something horrible is ok and something that's not even a problem for anyone is wrong.Yes it is comparing. He's saying "look at these things which parents do yet people don't have a problem with them yet look at this which people do have a problem with". He's comparing some of the things parents do yet doesn't seem to get that this whole experiment is completely different to circumcising your child at birth or raising them to believe in a certain religion.

How isn't it comparable?How is it?

domino92
24-05-11, 23:10
Domino, it's one thing to feel at ease in your own skin and to be able to just be you and to not have to worry about what your sexuality is. but this isn't about sexuality is it? Sexuality isn't a choice. What sex you are born into isn't a choice either. You're born a boy or a girl. Now i realise that sometimes a person can be born a boy or girl and later in life choose to become the opposite. So in a way I understand that the parents are letting their children just be whatever feels natural. I can kind of see what these parents are doing, they're not allowing society to have preconceived ideas of their child's gender. Yet their sons are often confused for girls. No matter how hard the parents are trying, society will place them in one box or another. People like teachers etc will inevitably place him/her as a boy or girl when it comes to things like sending him to the 'correct' changing rooms or toilets. S/he will, until s/he's old enough to decide for themselves, be subject to being 'placed'. S/he may well end up confused, not knowing which way to turn as his parents no doubt will try and teach them that whatever body parts they have won't matter to how they feel. So where will the poor mite go when s/he wants a pee? Or to change for swimming? We don't live in a gender-less society. I can't help but wonder at how confusing it will be for him/her. Sooner or later, his body parts will matter - until he's what? a teenager? and can choose.

That was very difficult to type as I'm reluctant to use the term 'it'. :p

Ps: This thread just suddenly moved very quickly. Now I have to go over what's been said since domino's post :p.

Well I do agree, I do think that the child has to decide for theirself. Their parents are forcing them to make a decision. Thats why I said that I agree and disagree, and that their method was flawed but ideals were well meant.

Hopefully though this kid figures out who they are. I would hate to be them when they finally decided, although their parents will deffinately accept who they are. It probably wont be as stressful as my coming out was! :)

Simochka
24-05-11, 23:12
Yes it is comparing. He's saying "look at these things which parents do yet people don't have a problem with them yet look at this which people do have a problem with". He's comparing some of the things parents do yet doesn't seem to get that this whole experiment is completely different to circumcising your child at birth or raising them to believe in a certain religion.

Seriously.

I'm sure he means peoples opinions. Like how can people think that circumcision and brain washing is ok but not not telling what gender your child is?

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:15
Seriously.

I'm sure he means peoples opinions. Like how can people think that circumcision and brain washing is ok but not not telling what gender your child is?That's comparing. :confused: By simply bringing those two examples into the conversation is making a comparison.

Simochka
24-05-11, 23:19
That's comparing. :confused: By simply bringing those two examples into the conversation is making a comparison.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

He's comparing peoples reactions and opinions on two different "things" but he's not comparing the "things"

leglion
24-05-11, 23:20
Yes it is comparing. He's saying "look at these things which parents do yet people don't have a problem with them yet look at this which people do have a problem with". He's comparing some of the things parents do yet doesn't seem to get that this whole experiment is completely different to circumcising your child at birth or raising them to believe in a certain religion.

How is it?

You answered a question with a question. In most cases, i would yell bull ****, but in this case, i must add something else: BULL****! you don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you did you would have explained it to me from the beginning but you're trying to play little child games. This isn't anything new from you from what I've observed. But I'll entertain you.
with something that's been posted before.
No it's not. People call them bad parents because they see their child as a human instead of a walking sex.

But still many people thinks it's ok of parents to circumcise their baby and brainwash it with religion bull****.

How exactly is that comparing gender roles with circumcision?
It's just a way to explain how stupid people can be when thinking something horrible is ok and something that's not even a problem for anyone is wrong.
I see what you did there. You focused on something and completely ignored something that proved you were wrong. You're trying to start a trivial argument about whether it's a comparison or not aren't you? You're completely ignoring the valid part of the post, aren't you? Yes you are, typical.

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:23
You answered a question with a question. In most cases, i would yell bull ****, but in this case, i must add something else: BULL****! you don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you did you would have explained it to me from the beginning but you're trying to play little child games. This isn't anything new from you from what I've observed. But I'll entertain you.
with something that's been posted before.Why should I answer your question when you're acting this rude and childish (funny you should accuse me of that)?

Anyway, I've already explained why they're not comparable to Simochka. You need to observe more.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

He's comparing peoples reactions and opinions on two different "things" but he's not comparing the "things"That still counts as comparing. He's comparing the three things as if they should all be treated the same when they clearly shouldn't as this is a whole lot different from the two examples he gave.

voltz
24-05-11, 23:24
This thread ----> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Yua0jSZwYN0/TYyJlKrEhDI/AAAAAAAAFVw/WH_Es4Wgj5I/s1600/its-pat.jpg

leglion
24-05-11, 23:29
Why should I answer your question when you're acting this rude and childish (funny you should accuse me of that)?

Anyway, I've already explained why they're not comparable to Simochka. You need to observe more.
That still counts as comparing. He's comparing the three things as if they should all be treated the same when they clearly shouldn't as this is a whole lot different from the two examples he gave.

Tony, dear, i never said you were rude. I said you play little child games to prevent from losing an argument. A perfect example of that is answering a question with a question.

I see you failing at that, but i don't see you addressing what he/she said.

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:31
Tony, dear, i never said you were rude. I said you play little child games to prevent from losing an argument. A perfect example of that is answering a question with a question.

I see you failing at that, but i don't see you addressing what he/she said.No, I said you were rude.

I don't need to prevent "losing an argument". I've already explained why I believe they're not comparable. If you really wanted to know that you would look through my posts. Instead however you're just interested in playing little child games and picking a fight.

leglion
24-05-11, 23:35
No, I said you were rude.

I don't need to prevent "losing an argument". I've already explained why I believe they're not comparable. If you really wanted to know that you would look through my posts. Instead however you're just interested in playing little child games and picking a fight.

This post speaks for it self. I don't think i need to call it little child games or point it out.

Anyway, he's comparing people's reaction, he's not comparing the things. You explained why you think the two things are incomparable which is completely redundant.

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:37
This post speaks for it self. I don't think i need to call it little child games or point it out.

Anyway, he's comparing people's reaction, he's not comparing the things. You explained why you think the two things are incomparable which is completely redundant.Actually, he's also comparing the things (which I have also explained).

Why is it redundant? You asked me why they weren't comparable did you not?

leglion
24-05-11, 23:41
Actually, he's also comparing the things (which I have also explained).

Why is it redundant? You asked me why they weren't comparable did you not?

Bringing two examples into a conversation is not a comparison unless those two things are directly compared and contrasted. The reactions were compared to show the hypocricy in our society. Any other way would make no sense. and make you seem like you're grasping at straws. >.>

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:45
Bringing two examples into a conversation is not a comparison unless those two things are directly compared and contrasted. The reactions were compared to show the hypocricy in our society. Any other way would make no sense. and make you seem like you're grasping at strawsThe reactions were compared which by extension means the things themselves were compared, given that uzi master seemed to have a problem with the reactions.

leglion
24-05-11, 23:46
The reactions were compared which by extension means the things themselves were compared, given that uzi master seemed to have a problem with the reactions.

Not it doesn't. If it does, explain to me what was compared between the things, kindly.

Minty Mouth
24-05-11, 23:51
Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt did the same thing with Shiloh, only they didn't make a song and dance about keeping the sex a secret.

It's clearly a boy, anyway. Going by the picture.

Queer theory always confused me, anyway. A society with no recognised gener roles is comparable to some kind of dystopia. Perhaps I'm projecting my own moral values, here, but I don't think this is constructive.

Mad Tony
24-05-11, 23:52
Not it doesn't. If it does, explain to me what was compared between the things, kindly.I've already explained it. See my previous posts to Simochka.

leglion
24-05-11, 23:54
I've already explained it. See my previous posts to Simochka.

That still counts as comparing. He's comparing the three things as if they should all be treated the same when they clearly shouldn't as this is a whole lot different from the two examples he gave.

lol

domino92
25-05-11, 00:07
It's clearly a boy, anyway. Going by the picture.

People thought I was a girl until I was 4. Looks can be deceiving.

Legend 4ever
25-05-11, 07:57
It makes absolutely none. That's like a... (thinks of an example) A black crayon calling itself white. Or a wall calling itself a door (no matter how bad it wants to be one). :pi:

What I mean is!... Gender is gender. Sexuality is different. It's what is done (as in an act) or how one feels.

It's not at all like that. People are not defined by their genitalia. There are such things as male and female brain. When people are doubters I just ask them a well known question "If you woke up tomorrow with a penis (or a vagina) if you're a guy, would you settle with it, not freak out and carry on with your life even though you know that your genitalia does not represent your gender?
I doubt a lot of people would say yes. It's not at all like a white person saying "I'm actually black". We know there's more to gender than the physical characteristics. It's more like having a cleft lip and knowing you have to fix it.

Capt. Murphy
25-05-11, 09:03
It's not at all like that. People are not defined by their genitalia. There are such things as male and female brain. When people are doubters I just ask them a well known question "If you woke up tomorrow with a penis (or a vagina) if you're a guy, would you settle with it, not freak out and carry on with your life even though you know that your genitalia does not represent your gender?
I doubt a lot of people would say yes. It's not at all like a white person saying "I'm actually black". We know there's more to gender than the physical characteristics. It's more like having a cleft lip and knowing you have to fix it.

Then I must presume you're taking the word 'genitalia' and exaggerating it's definition.

gen·i·ta·li·a
   [jen-i-tey-lee-uh, -teyl-yuh]
–plural noun Anatomy .
the organs of reproduction, especially the external organs.

Saying what someone is, or what their Gender is is another way of saying what type of genital they have.

You're taking the meaning of 'sexuality' and applying it to the word 'Gender'.

When someone "identifies" or Emphatises with a certain gender, they can call it (something like) a gender identity crisis. Why is it a crisis? Because that isn't THEIR natural born gender (i.e. they don't act like what their genitals should dictate their actions or "lifestyle" would presumably be). And I'm basing this statement on the naturally complimentary structures of male and female genitalia.

So the matter of gender, or what genitals you have has nothing to do with one's self perception of their sexuality.


If I may put the gender/genital idea another way.

Lets say you want to identify a person, and they just happen to be naked (for the sake of this argument). You identify them by saying "that girl", or "that boy"... This is a matter of gender.

On the flip side; You want to identify someone. If you can't use any terms relating to gender then your only other option is to point out the genitalia. So you'd say "the person with the ______". So using terms of "Gender" is just a polite way to say what said person has between their legs.


As for what's between their ears?.... Their 'Sexuality'... That's another matter entirely. :)

tampi
25-05-11, 09:38
The abuse of parental thinking about their children, it's insulting at times.
This is ridiculous.
Will have the child at the waist one of those plastic cones as dogs to not bite?
From the moment it is legal to kill your child in your womb, we have become insane.
That said.
This is an experiment.
Why not some authority (grandparents, perhaps) overrides the sex of the parents with the intention that they too have their own data on gender and thus complete the experiment in a better way?
Why do we not become protozoa, ignorant of our sex and method of reproduction?
Why this world is back to its origins?
These parents believe that the millions of years that nature has developed has forgotten any chance?
They believe that they have not been enough natural experiments in which human beings we are been involved?
O therefore, they seek to remind us of something that happened billions of years?
First sentence of my post, again.

Human rights are trampled every day. The rights of children are also victims of the whims of parents.

The child eats the food that the parents choose, wear clothing that parents choose to live the life that parents choose. Now the children have to suffer the possible processes also egomaniacs of the parents, making these children to become laboratory rats.

There's nothing like getting notoriety, fame and money through public and media experimentation on an innocent child outside/others to this process.

hello :pi:

Lara Croft!
25-05-11, 12:12
This is one of the weirdest and stupidest things I've heard. I get it that gender social characteristics are created and supported by the social environment, but this differentiation stems from the genetic differences in body and behavior. It's another thing to grow your boy as a boy, and if he is gay to accept it and another thing not to direct your child at all.


“What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It’s obnoxious,”
Srsly???

Wow, and isn't the fact that they decided to raise him like a sexless child, also a huge decision for its life? Raise your kid and don't pay much attention to blue and pink shirts, Barbies or G.I Joes, but don't just make the child a tabula rasa. Human being are mimetic creatures and need models to copy so as to create their individual self. Want to offer freedom to your kid? Let him study whatever he pleases, allow him to follow his dreams. Don't deny him of a normal childhood.

patriots88888
25-05-11, 14:26
This is one of the weirdest and stupidest things I've heard.

“What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It’s obnoxious,”

Srsly???

The opitome of hypocrisy right there. Ah well, hopefully this will all go well, which most likely it will. Most likely he/she will turn out just fine and eventually will see how pointless this all was and ask the parents why they made such a big deal out of it in the first place. Maybe even be a bit rebellious about it, and understandably so. One of those occasions where the kid teaches the parent(s) a thing or two. Over-parenting does not = good parenting.

domina
25-05-11, 14:38
Quasi pointed this out earlier in the thread, but I think this bears repeating: gender and sex are not the same thing. Sex refers to your genitalia, your physical attributes. Gender refers to the social constructs associated with sex. A statement about sex would be "Females have vaginas." A statement about gender would be "Girls wear pink."

The parents aren't hoping to raise a sexless child; that wouldn't be possible in this case without some really messed up situations. They're hoping to a raise a genderless child, one who doesn't fall "victim" to predefined gender roles.

Of course, this isn't to say I agree with their methods. They've already raised two boys who obviously aren't concerned with gender roles, but they themselves and the world know what their sex is. Others have said that in this thread, they still rejected gender roles while still knowing what their sex is. The two obviously don't have to go hand-in-hand, and I actually think it's more effective and profound to raise a child with that understanding rather than to keep information from him or her.

Right now, withholding that information about Storm really doesn't effect "him" because he's too little to understand, so it's just piquing people's curiosity about the baby. But eventually "he's" going to have questions about himself, questions to answer from others, make decisions in which sex, not just gender, may be a factor, and I don't think what the parents are doing is going to properly prepare him for the world.

Squibbly
25-05-11, 15:28
While the methods these parents are using are questionable, I see what they're trying to do. The minute you're said to be a girl or a boy, you're tossed into a category of what girls and boys should be and should do. Gender roles are applied to children from an early age. Go into a Toys R Us or something similar, and what do you see? Aisles of pink for girls: pink dolls, pink mini stollers, pink brooms, pots and pans that say "Just Like Mom" on them. For boys, it's commonly trucks, footballs, race cars and action figures.

These parents are trying to keep their child out of these gender roles and let them decide for themselves who they want to be, without being told that because they are a girl or a boy, they have to play with their gender specific toys or dress a certain way.

As a personal example, I'm female but when I was a child I wanted the race car tracks, transformers, remote controlled cars... all the "cool" things my friends who were boys had. My mother bought me a race car track one year for Christmas and even though I was very excited about it, my father took it back to the store the next day because "those toys aren't for girls, she can't play with this." I hated dolls, I hated playing "mother", but because I wasn't a boy, I was expected to like these things.

I think people are getting sex and gender confused. I don't think this kid is going to be clueless about what bathroom to use in the future or anything like that. I'm sure s/he will be taught about the specifics eventually. It's the societal stereotypes of gender that the parents don't want to force on them.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about the parents' method of schooling for their children. The article says: ""Witterick practices unschooling, an offshoot of home-schooling centred on the belief that learning should be driven by a child’s curiosity. There are no report cards, no textbooks and no tests. For unschoolers, learning is about exploring and asking questions, “not something that happens by rote from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. weekdays in a building with a group of same-age people, planned, implemented and assessed by someone else,” says Witterick."

What qualifications do they have to create a curriculum? These children are going to be missing out on content and won't be able to formulate a proper opinion on what they like or don't like in school. I believe it's important to do things we don't like as it broadens are horizons and makes us a more complete person. Being forced to take a number of subjects, whether they initially interest us or not, determines what it is we want to do with our lives because it teaches us a little of everything.

Legend 4ever
26-05-11, 09:02
Post

No, I am absolutely not talking about sexuality. A persons gender is not defined by their genitalia. That is why intersex and transsexual people's issues are treated by surgery, not medication and therapy to stop the symptoms of the feeling their body does not represent their gender. Quite the opposite -- surgery, hormones and a therapist support all work towards bringing those people towards the sex they feel they are, because their gender is already fixed and cannot change.
It's not a psychological issue, it's a physical one. The genitals say what sex someone is. Gender is a social construct, defined by the way we live out lives and gender roles we take. It is also a psychological part of our identity. It's completely separate from sex, although this fact is still not mainstream enough for people to differentiate between the two.

I'll give you two examples -- a boy was born with a penis and during circumcision the surgeon messed up and botched the surgery, mutilating the kid. They offered the parents to perform sex reassignment surgery and give him a vagina. They accepted, never mentioned any of this to their kid, raised their child as a girl and what do you know, from the early age the kid kept saying he's a boy, not a girl. Later in life he transitioned into male, the way he always felt he was supposed to be (which was true). This shows that we are not defined by what's between our legs and that gender is in our brain. We do not learn who we are simply by looking at our bodies.

The other story -- it's a friend of mine. She was born intersex(hermaphrodite). She was not a true hermaphrodite. Then again, few of the intersex people are. She had an enlarged clitoris, she did not have a womb, she had testicles etc. it was all mixed up. The parents decided to raise her as a boy, but in her early childhood she started telling her parents she's a girl. She later transitioned and lives a normal life as a woman now. What I've learned from this is that everything on the outside can be misleading, but there is always one true gender in our brain.

silver_wolf
26-05-11, 15:37
That's absolutely bang out of the order. The fact that this child was born normally (that is to say, it was a male or female and not a hermaphrodite) and they're trying to impose their "progressive" (how the hell can they call this progressive?) beliefs on it is disgusting. I know I shouldn't really judge other parents given that I'm not a parent myself but I think this is terrible parenting.
Oh, that is bull ****.
It's an odd decision, but whatever they want, I guess.
It's that sort of attitude that get's "parents" like these thinking they can twist and manipulate their children into whatever sort of person they want. I don't care, some people should not be parents.

Mad Tony
26-05-11, 16:36
Oh, that is bull ****.Care to explain why instead of just swearing at me?

larafan25
26-05-11, 17:12
Care to explain why instead of just swearing at me?

Honestly, the post itself (of yours which he quoted) doesn't really give much reasoning for why you think it's disgusting. You simply crack at them imposing their beliefs on the child.

So it seems like an easy post to just...well...swear at.

Their beliefs are progressive. Progressive in the sense that they are trying to move away from gender roles. Moving away from any sort of claustrophobic feeling of being restricted to what society allows of your gender. Which someone has already pointed out that in this respect, society has come a long way. However it's still relevant.

All your post really says is "I don't like the idea because....I'll tell you the rest later..." In a teasing way.:pi:

larson n natla
26-05-11, 17:19
It's a sweet idea but the fact is that this will lead to the child facing unnecessary difficulties. It will know what gender it is and will naturally develop in a certain way during puberty. The parents are just delaying the inevitable.

Plus their main reason for doing this, from what I can gather, is that their son who is mistaken for a girl (When I saw his photo I personally thought he was female) faced criticism for his appearance. I understand that it doesn't matter but psychologically allowing a child to develop without direction is harmful.

Mad Tony
26-05-11, 17:32
Honestly, the post itself (of yours which he quoted) doesn't really give much reasoning for why you think it's disgusting. You simply crack at them imposing their beliefs on the child.

So it seems like an easy post to just...well...swear at.

Their beliefs are progressive. Progressive in the sense that they are trying to move away from gender roles. Moving away from any sort of claustrophobic feeling of being restricted to what society allows of your gender. Which someone has already pointed out that in this respect, society has come a long way. However it's still relevant.

All your post really says is "I don't like the idea because....I'll tell you the rest later..." In a teasing way.:pi:Funnily enough though my first post wasn't my only post. I've made many more explaining my point of view. Obviously silver_wolf is just too lazy to read through the thread before commenting on other posts.

lararoxs
26-05-11, 17:51
I can understand the reasoning but I think it's pretty selfish to use the children as an object to make a point.

Forwen
26-05-11, 18:29
I find it pretty ironic that people applaud those parents for wanting to fight "gender roles", and then go on to list such terrible examples of social oppression like being dressed in pink or receiving toy cars as gifts. I also understand the kids aren't receiving structured schooling? If these are considered to be unacceptable pressures then I'm sorry for the kids when they grow up and have to face real difficulties.

larafan25
26-05-11, 19:01
Funnily enough though my first post wasn't my only post. I've made many more explaining my point of view. Obviously silver_wolf is just too lazy to read through the thread before commenting on other posts.

I can't blame him.

Capt. Murphy
26-05-11, 20:55
No, I am absolutely not talking about sexuality. A persons gender is not defined by their genitalia. That is why intersex and transsexual people's issues are treated by surgery, not medication and therapy to stop the symptoms of the feeling their body does not represent their gender. Quite the opposite -- surgery, hormones and a therapist support all work towards bringing those people towards the sex they feel they are, because their gender is already fixed and cannot change.
It's not a psychological issue, it's a physical one. The genitals say what sex someone is. Gender is a social construct, defined by the way we live out lives and gender roles we take. It is also a psychological part of our identity. It's completely separate from sex, although this fact is still not mainstream enough for people to differentiate between the two.

I see what you're getting at, but you have to ask yourself if it makes sense.

Would you say there is a difference between the words "Female" and other words like Girl, Lady, Woman, Lass, Chick, Dudette, etc. etc....?

Like... Would you say "that Female has a Penis"? Their "sex" is that of having a "Male" organ, but their "Gender" is that of a "female"? :confused:

It seems to me that when someone has a penis or vagina - they would be labeled as a Male or Female respectively. This would be their 'Sex'? Right? Then how and where do you apply the Label for "Gender"?

Just help me out here in... your understanding.


Is it like; Physically (sex wise) they could be a Girl (they have a Vagina), but their "Gender" is that of a Male since they.... (get ready!) Act like a boy in that they do boyish things, dress like a boy, and like girls...?

I still say we're crossing the line into sexuality somewhere with this idea. I could go on and give more examples - but the way the idea works just gets confusing.

Hmmm... Confusing? :-o

I guess it really is a psychological issue. -imo

igonge
26-05-11, 21:06
What's the point?

Mad Tony
26-05-11, 21:52
I find it pretty ironic that people applaud those parents for wanting to fight "gender roles", and then go on to list such terrible examples of social oppression like being dressed in pink or receiving toy cars as gifts. I also understand the kids aren't receiving structured schooling? If these are considered to be unacceptable pressures then I'm sorry for the kids when they grow up and have to face real difficulties.Yeah, the schooling is another thing. I have nothing against home schooling but I really can't see their style of teaching (if it can be called that) working. People will probably say most of the stuff you learn in school is redundant but it isn't.

silver_wolf
27-05-11, 00:31
Care to explain why instead of just swearing at me?
I was agreeing with you, actually. My swearing was directed at the situation, I know it wasn't very clear.

Mad Tony
27-05-11, 09:01
I was agreeing with you, actually. My swearing was directed at the situation, I know it wasn't very clear.Oh, ok.

yourtea
27-05-11, 09:51
I haven't read the entire article but I can understand why they would want to keep their child genderless. However, the influence on Storm is clearly too strong. Storm is a human being and they're labelling the baby too strongly I feel. A lot of people do not want to be recognised by gender because they feel it doesn't matter and in my opinion, in most cases it doesn't.

We know people don't always want to be their gender or want to be labelled, I understand that. However, it is sort of Storm's decision, not theirs.

Solice
28-05-11, 01:57
When you're filling out a form or a survey, and you get asked whether your male or female, M or F, you pretty much answer it without hesitation, right? Imagine being raised in such a way that you feel that binary doesn't apply to you. That's what this Canadian family is attempting to do with their youngest child. Anyhoo, here's the link...let's hear your thoughts!
http://www.thestar.com/article/995112

There is a fine line between being principled and being stupid.

Rai
28-05-11, 10:41
I haven't read the entire article but I can understand why they would want to keep their child genderless. However, the influence on Storm is clearly too strong. Storm is a human being and they're labelling the baby too strongly I feel. A lot of people do not want to be recognised by gender because they feel it doesn't matter and in my opinion, in most cases it doesn't.

We know people don't always want to be their gender or want to be labelled, I understand that. However, it is sort of Storm's decision, not theirs.

Yes. They're contradicting their own principles in a way. They say they're against parents making too many decisions for their children but then this is what they're doing for Storm - choosing for him to hide his gender - for the moment at least. He's too young to choose.

FourBalls
29-05-11, 06:06
I think this is ridiculous. Alright, so they don't buy "Storm" clothes that are "just pink" or "just blue" and don't "force gender roles" on their child...But this is just a new extreme. As was mentioned in the article, the child might face a lifetime of bullying (or if maybe not a lifetime, then at least it's childhood years). I just hope they raise him/her to be strong enough as well, instead of just being all liberal and stuff.

By the way, what pronoun do you use in this case? Always writing "him/her" or "Storm" is a bit odd :p

QiX
29-05-11, 06:33
Alright, I can even understand the 'tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation' part of it. But allowing journalists to make their decision an openly global media fact won't itself generate an even worse stygma? The poor kid will be known as 'genderless' for his/her whole life probably, I wonder how he/she will suffer at school.

larafan25
29-05-11, 14:08
I haven't read the entire article but I can understand why they would want to keep their child genderless. However, the influence on Storm is clearly too strong. Storm is a human being and they're labelling the baby too strongly I feel. A lot of people do not want to be recognised by gender because they feel it doesn't matter and in my opinion, in most cases it doesn't.

We know people don't always want to be their gender or want to be labelled, I understand that. However, it is sort of Storm's decision, not theirs.

Technically....Through giving Storm the option to say "I would like to be associated with boys" or girls, they are in turn forcing this idea onto them.

However the idea itself is practically transparent and weightless through my eyes.

Mad Tony
08-07-11, 20:04
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14038419

Thought I'd bump this thread instead of create a new one with a rather bizarre story about how this kind thing is being applied in a school in Sweden. I can't understand why anyone would want to send their child to such a school.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
08-07-11, 20:35
Someone should put hidden camera's around their house and spill the beans publicly. That'll show em'!!!

kooky
08-07-11, 20:40
I've heard a story like this about a month ago. When I heard it, I found absolutely sick & outrageous. The first time I heard about this was when these have referred they 5-year old boy as their "little princess" & letting him wear girls clothing instead of an average boy's clothes...

MBBffc0Rtc8

I do believe this is bringing the wrong message to him that it is okay for men to wear women's clothes & the same pattern with women wearing men's clothes. There is honestly something mentally wrong with his parents, I believe they need some kind of serious help. Also another story I've heard was about a genderless preschool in Sweden, where they do not refer the kids as "he" or "she" but as "friends". Definitely the wrong message to these young minds, when I saw this at first I was like what has society gone too.

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/06/28/genderless-preschool-in-sweden/

larafan25
08-07-11, 23:10
edit: ^ :eek: Anti-bullying book!?

I wore dresses and makeup as a child and I almost failed marketing class.:(

Who should I refer my parents to?

KyleCroft
08-07-11, 23:19
edit: ^ :eek: Anti-bullying book!?

I wore dresses and makeup as a child and I almost failed marketing class.:(

Who should I refer my parents to?

You took a marketing class as a child?

larafan25
08-07-11, 23:20
You took a marketing class as a child?

Nope, I took it last year. But I almost failed it (technically recovered from a fail) and I was just thinking "I bet it's because I wore dresses and makeup as a child".

That's probably not the case though.

Simochka
08-07-11, 23:50
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14038419

Thought I'd bump this thread instead of create a new one with a rather bizarre story about how this kind thing is being applied in a school in Sweden. I can't understand why anyone would want to send their child to such a school.

I don't see what's so wrong with it.
I hate the "girl= pink, boy= blue" thing going on. I think they take it too far when they don't call anyone her or him though.
But letting boys play with dolls etc.. isn't wrong at all and will only give positive "experience" in life.

Mad Tony
09-07-11, 00:17
I don't see what's so wrong with it.
I hate the "girl= pink, boy= blue" thing going on. I think they take it too far when they don't call anyone her or him though.
But letting boys play with dolls etc.. isn't wrong at all and will only give positive "experience" in life.Because it goes further than just allowing boys to play with dolls and associate themselves with the color pink. The words "him" and "her" are avoided, classic children's books aren't present because of the teachers obsession with battling gender roles. I find it very hypocritical that the school is supposedly all about giving kids more freedom and more variety yet things such as books are carefully selected based on promoting "genderlessness" (if that's even a word), with any books that might invoke gender roles deemed inappropriate. What if a kid wants to read a classic Disney book at school? He or she can't because said books don't fall in line with the views of the teachers. That's not freedom or variety. If anything it's the opposite.

People obsessed with eliminating gender roles in society have it in their heads that the reason why men primarily act like... men (for lack of a better word) and women primarily act like women is because that's how society has drilled them to think, when in actual fact it's got more to do with how we as humans are and how men and women are biologically different in many ways. Personally I don't feel that when growing up I was pushed into being a typical male. I had quite a liberal upbringing and schools don't force gender roles as much as these nuts believe, but even if I was brought up in some controlled "gender-neutral" environment, I still would have grown up into the same person I am today. For example, I don't like action films because I've been forced into the typical male gender role, I like action films because they entertain me and that's how I am.

I know this may not make total sense as I'm having a hard time putting my feelings into words but basically what I'm trying to say is that there are gender roles because they're generally true of both genders. Gender roles don't control who we are, it's the other way around.

scremanie
09-07-11, 00:35
Because it goes further than just allowing boys to play with dolls and associate themselves with the color pink. The words "him" and "her" are avoided, classic children's books aren't present because of the teachers obsession with battling gender roles. I find it very hypocritical that the school is supposedly all about giving kids more freedom and more variety yet things such as books are carefully selected based on promoting "genderlessness" (if that's even a word), with any books that might invoke gender roles deemed inappropriate. What if a kid wants to read a classic Disney book at school? He or she can't because said books don't fall in line with the views of the teachers. That's not freedom or variety. If anything it's the opposite.

People obsessed with eliminating gender roles in society have it in their heads that the reason why men primarily act like... men (for lack of a better word) and women primarily act like women is because that's how society has drilled them to think, when in actual fact it's got more to do with how we as humans are and how men and women are biologically different in many ways. Personally I don't feel that when growing up I was pushed into being a typical male. I had quite a liberal upbringing and schools don't force gender roles as much as these nuts believe, but even if I was brought up in some controlled "gender-neutral" environment, I still would have grown up into the same person I am today. For example, I don't like action films because I've been forced into the typical male gender role, I like action films because they entertain me and that's how I am.

I know this may not make total sense as I'm having a hard time putting my feelings into words but basically what I'm trying to say is that there are gender roles because they're generally true of both genders. Gender roles don't control who we are, it's the other way around.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree completely.

It's rather idiotic of them to state they throw freedom around, yet won't let the children think on their own. The children are too young to even know what is going on, so enforcing this "you can choose how you want to live your gender" is rather pointless, and going against what they're trying to do in the first place. They aren't giving them choices if they're forcing them to do this little experiment of theirs. You couldn't even ask the children how they feel about this, because they're just too young to understand, not to mention that as they grow like this, their views are going to be distorted and they'll only end up getting confused. It's cruel, and selfish. If you want to give them freedom, let them do whatever they please. If the boy wants to play with a truck, don't throw him a barbie.

Simochka
09-07-11, 00:42
Because it goes further than just allowing boys to play with dolls and associate themselves with the color pink. The words "him" and "her" are avoided, classic children's books aren't present because of the teachers obsession with battling gender roles. I find it very hypocritical that the school is supposedly all about giving kids more freedom and more variety yet things such as books are carefully selected based on promoting "genderlessness" (if that's even a word), with any books that might invoke gender roles deemed inappropriate. What if a kid wants to read a classic Disney book at school? He or she can't because said books don't fall in line with the views of the teachers. That's not freedom or variety. If anything it's the opposite.

People obsessed with eliminating gender roles in society have it in their heads that the reason why men primarily act like... men (for lack of a better word) and women primarily act like women is because that's how society has drilled them to think, when in actual fact it's got more to do with how we as humans are and how men and women are biologically different in many ways. Personally I don't feel that when growing up I was pushed into being a typical male. I had quite a liberal upbringing and schools don't force gender roles as much as these nuts believe, but even if I was brought up in some controlled "gender-neutral" environment, I still would have grown up into the same person I am today. For example, I don't like action films because I've been forced into the typical male gender role, I like action films because they entertain me and that's how I am.

I know this may not make total sense as I'm having a hard time putting my feelings into words but basically what I'm trying to say is that there are gender roles because they're generally true of both genders. Gender roles don't control who we are, it's the other way around.

Actually you are making sense and I agree.
The things with the books is just stupid.
When I was young I could play with both girl and boy toys. AND read both princess books and... boy books.
Some people are taking it too far. As you said. It's not freedom. If a girl wants to be a princess, or a boy wants to be a... football player then that's fine. As long as people don't teach them that the opposite is wrong.

If the boy wants to play with a truck, don't throw him a barbie.

And IF he wants to play with a barbie, don't throw him a truck like many parents and teachers do.

Ward Dragon
09-07-11, 00:48
I read the article and I'm not completely clear about what the school is doing. I mean, I get that they are trying not to teach the children typical gender roles. However, would they stop a girl from doing "girly" things or a boy from doing "boyish" things? I wouldn't agree with it if they were preventing the children from doing things that fit with the gender roles. However if it doesn't restrict the children's behavior and is just meant to teach the children to accept everyone whether or not they conform to the gender roles then that's fine with me.

Simochka
09-07-11, 00:54
I read the article and I'm not completely clear about what the school is doing. I mean, I get that they are trying not to teach the children typical gender roles. However, would they stop a girl from doing "girly" things or a boy from doing "boyish" things? I wouldn't agree with it if they were preventing the children from doing things that fit with the gender roles. However if it doesn't restrict the children's behavior and is just meant to teach the children to accept everyone whether or not they conform to the gender roles then that's fine with me.

I think they can choose what they want. If they want to play with dolls then that's fine, if they want to play with cars then that's fine too.

I think it's a great idea. They are taking some things too far.
I remember when I was young. I loved playing with dolls, getting them dressed and fix their hair. But I was ashamed for it for so many years. I was even ashamed that I was a Britney Spears fan until I was 15. And that's all because of pre-school and school.
So I think this is a great idea and they're teaching the children to be more open minded.

scremanie
09-07-11, 00:56
And IF he wants to play with a barbie, don't throw him a truck as many parents and teachers do.

Exactly. :tmb:

It seems as if they're trying to remove any activity that seems remotely male or female, depending on the child.

If a boy wants to play with a barbie, good for him.
If a boy wants to play with a truck, good for him.
If a girl wants to play with a truck, good for her.
If a girl wants to play with a barbie, good for her.

They're kids, they don't even know what gender is. It seems to me that these parents and teachers don't want the kids to freely play with what they choose, or pick a colour of clothing freely. It seems they're forcing the opposite of what is genderly stereotypical just to see how they react, and when they get no reaction, they think "Oohhh they chose that! See, they know what that colour represents or what that activity or toy represents! That is freedom!" No. Just, no. They don't even understand what the things represent because you're too busy forcing "freedom" down their throat.

Uzi master
09-07-11, 02:32
Exactly. :tmb:

It seems as if they're trying to remove any activity that seems remotely male or female, depending on the child.

If a boy wants to play with a barbie, good for him.
If a boy wants to play with a truck, good for him.
If a girl wants to play with a truck, good for her.
If a girl wants to play with a barbie, good for her.

They're kids, they don't even know what gender is. It seems to me that these parents and teachers don't want the kids to freely play with what they choose, or pick a colour of clothing freely. It seems they're forcing the opposite of what is genderly stereotypical just to see how they react, and when they get no reaction, they think "Oohhh they chose that! See, they know what that colour represents or what that activity or toy represents! That is freedom!" No. Just, no. They don't even understand what the things represent because you're too busy forcing "freedom" down their throat.

And were is it that anyone was forced to comply to the opposite gender role?

Maybe I missed something but unless theres a story about a parrent forcing their son to wear dresses or refusing to give their daugter a barbie doll and instead gives her trucks that she hates I don't see the point some of you are trying to get across.

Miharu
09-07-11, 07:43
This kid is either a boy or a girl (we obviously don't know). It's wrong to raise this child as "genderless" when this child actually does have a gender.

This.

Regardless of gender, everyones equal (which is probably what the parents are trying to teach...)...But that doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge our gender, Infact we must acknowledge our gender!

scremanie
09-07-11, 08:37
And were is it that anyone was forced to comply to the opposite gender role?

Maybe I missed something but unless theres a story about a parrent forcing their son to wear dresses or refusing to give their daugter a barbie doll and instead gives her trucks that she hates I don't see the point some of you are trying to get across.

My point is that the teachers/parents are hypocrites. They're saying that they're giving the children freedom of choice, yet they're deciding what the choices are. If they were truly giving the children freedom and letting them make their own choices, they wouldn't be enforcing this genderless upbringing upon them.

Uzi master
09-07-11, 08:45
My point is that the teachers/parents are hypocrites. They're saying that they're giving the children freedom of choice, yet they're deciding what the choices are. If they were truly giving the children freedom and letting them make their own choices, they wouldn't be enforcing this genderless upbringing upon them.

How are they forcing it? if they were forced to be genderless they wouldn't be allowed to play with or use stuff of either gender role. What they seem to be doing is removing things that show which things belong to which gender, like girls are the princesses with dresses and pearls and guys are the prince driving a truck, or whatever.

Perhaps thats not it, but I don't see them making choices other than removing the media influence that forces girls to pink and boys to blue. How is making the choice to let them play with anything worse than making the choice to only let them play with stuff associated with their gender?

It's not like they're saying there is no such thing as boys or girls, but that being a boy doesn't mean you have to do the things associated with boys and beign a girl doesn't mean you have to do things associated with being a girl. It's more like not telling them what Boys and Girls are supposed to be in according to gender roles.

scremanie
09-07-11, 08:59
That's just it. It's the parents choice to do this. Not the kids.

Uzi master
09-07-11, 09:21
That's just it. It's the parents choice to do this. Not the kids.

They chose to let the kids choose, thats as close as they can get, unless you have a better alternative?:p

scremanie
09-07-11, 09:31
They're letting them choose what? Letting the boy choose if he wants to play with his barbie in a dress? He's a kid, he doesn't know that those represent the stereotype of the opposite gender. They're not letting the kids choose anything. They're enforcing their own choices of making the kids grow up genderless. That's not freedom of choice on the kids behalf.

FloTheMachine
09-07-11, 09:35
Is it not the same sort of line of argument... say for example kids getting circumcised at birth, thats the parents choice, as these parents made a choice.

Although most including myself disagree with them, they think they have their child's best interest at heart. I don't think we're at liberty to judge, its like looking someone up and down and telling them they're a bad parent.

Poor kid. :/

Ward Dragon
09-07-11, 09:36
He's a kid, he doesn't know that those represent the stereotype of the opposite gender.

I think that's the whole point. They're trying not to teach the children stereotypes so that the children will be more accepting of trying different things, and won't bully the children who are different. Whether it will work remains to be seen of course, but I don't think it's a bad idea in theory.

FloTheMachine
09-07-11, 09:37
I think that's the whole point. They're trying not to teach the children stereotypes so that the children will be more accepting of trying different things, and won't bully the children who are different. Whether it will work remains to be seen of course, but I don't think it's a bad idea in theory.

Would other children not bully him/her?

Ward Dragon
09-07-11, 09:38
Would other children not bully him/her?

Oh, I was talking about the Swedish school, not the kid in the opening article.

FloTheMachine
09-07-11, 09:39
Sorry. :o

scremanie
09-07-11, 09:40
I think that's the whole point. They're trying not to teach the children stereotypes so that the children will be more accepting of trying different things, and won't bully the children who are different. Whether it will work remains to be seen of course, but I don't think it's a bad idea in theory.

I think it'll end up backfiring in the future, as the kid matures and hits the hormonal teenager state. It'll be rather confusing for them, IMO. Growing up knowing your gender is hard enough. :p

Ward Dragon
09-07-11, 09:43
Sorry. :o

No problem :) In retrospect the thread is a bit confusing to follow since there are a few different conversations going on :p

I think it'll end up backfiring in the future, as the kid matures and hits the hormonal teenager state. It'll be rather confusing for them, IMO. Growing up knowing your gender is hard enough. :p

The kids will still know what gender they are and what gender they're physically attracted to :p I don't think the purpose of the school is to eliminate gender, just to avoid teaching the children how boys and girls are "supposed" to behave until the children are old enough to decide for themselves what they want to do.

Uzi master
09-07-11, 09:49
They're letting them choose what? Letting the boy choose if he wants to play with his barbie in a dress? He's a kid, he doesn't know that those represent the stereotype of the opposite gender. They're not letting the kids choose anything. They're enforcing their own choices of making the kids grow up genderless. That's not freedom of choice on the kids behalf.
they are given the choice of what they want to be, they are not enforcing stereotypes is bassically what this is, not teaching them the stereotypes in the first place so they don't feel they need to ajust to society and can just be whatever feels natural to them. Whether or not it actualy works as intended in practice doesn't make it any worse than other methods.

what are they being forced into by letting them choose to play with a barby or a truck?
And if that isn't letting him choose then what is it you think the child should be choosing?

scremanie
09-07-11, 09:54
I was talking more about the children from the one family in the opening post. :p

Uzi master
09-07-11, 10:01
well, I'm too lazy to read the article again for details:p, but from what I remember the brothers liked their cloths and toys and whatever so the parrents let them be like that, while keeping the childs gender from other people may be a little extreme as soon as the child is capable to make choices it can decide to tell people right?

peeves
09-07-11, 16:17
Maybe parents have a right sometimes to keep their child's gender a secret but if i had a child i'd tell people whether they're male or female.

larafan25
09-07-11, 17:31
This.

Regardless of gender, everyones equal (which is probably what the parents are trying to teach...)...But that doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge our gender, Infact we must acknowledge our gender!

They're letting the child acknowledge their gender on their own terms.