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Catracoth
24-08-11, 20:43
I know some members are going to boo and shout and get their angry mob weapons ready, so just throw your tomatoes and be gone. However, I wanted to address something and perhaps spark a discussion based on something Funto said in the What really grinds YOUR gears? thread here (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=5654569&postcount=5514).

S/he raised an interesting and incredibly true point: when members share their creative work or what-have-you on the forum, why is it okay for members to blindly praise it by saying "Wow that's amazing!" "AWESOME!!1!" etc. but it's not okay to blindly criticize it by saying "I think it's bad" or "It sucks" or "Ew!" ? Neither of those blind statements offer detail or constructive criticism as to what is so good about it or what is so bad. So why is it that the positive aspect is allowed and encouraged?

I don't agree with what Funto said about things being politically correct, but I don't think that we ought to contradict ourselves nor make ourselves look like fools by allowing one thing, but disallowing something similar, just because it isn't in a most-desired tone.

I won't get into detail about how beauty is in the eye of the beholder and whatnot, but I think we need to work on these rule loopholes, especially ones so painfully obvious as allowing blind praise but not allowing blind criticism.

Thoughts? Opinions? Pitchforks?

[insert Miranda Priestly "That's all..." GIF]

Spong
24-08-11, 20:54
I know some members are going to boo and shout and get their angry nob weapons ready...

That's what I thought your opening line said :D

Damn good point raised though :tmb:
I might say something when I've thought about it properly :pi:

Minty Mouth
24-08-11, 20:59
Criticism, if not given with polite details, can be interpreted as rude or hurtful. Mindless praise doesn't have any similar consequences. It's just a matter of respect for your fellow artist.

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:02
Criticism, if not given with polite details, can be interpreted as rude or hurtful. Mindless praise doesn't have any similar consequences. It's just a matter of respect for your fellow artist.

I doubt any important people that serious artists will deal with down the line will have such a hippie mindset about positivity. I'm sure numerous people will come right out and say something sucks if they believe it so.

The real world doesn't sugarcoat anything, so why should anyone here? :confused:

TheGermanLlama
24-08-11, 21:07
I doubt any important people that serious artists will deal with down the line will have such a hippie mindset about positivity. I'm sure numerous people will come right out and say something sucks if they believe it so.

The real world doesn't sugarcoat anything, so why should anyone here? :confused:

Well, how would you feel if someone took a look at your project and said, "That's the worst peice of **** I've seen in my life. Throw it away and don't even bother trying again!"?

Constructive criticism, when they say something like, "Look, it's not perfect, but here are suggestions that I think will greatly improve it."

Then again, even that could be seen as hurtful to raw beginners, so I guess it depends on the person.

Last thing you want to do is break a creative person's spirit.

just*raidin*tomb
24-08-11, 21:08
Saying someone else's work sucks is just rude. I see where you're coming from, but you are really over thinking this.

I don't think it's sugar coating. It's being polite. Just because "the whole world" is impolite doesn't mean you have to be too.

This is just ignorant. I'm sorry.

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:08
^ No, actually, it's not ignorant. It's a valid point.

Well, how would you feel if someone took a look at your project and said, "That's the worst peice of **** I've seen in my life. Throw it away!"?

I wouldn't care.
I have a mindset to ignore anything that isn't constructive.

Minty Mouth
24-08-11, 21:09
I doubt any important people that serious artists will deal with down the line will have such a hippie mindset about positivity. I'm sure numerous people will come right out and say something sucks if they believe it so.

The real world doesn't sugarcoat anything, so why should anyone here? :confused:
Why bother posting if your only input will be 'I don't like it'. At least 'I like it' is constructive in the sense that it is encouraging.

It's also pretty clear that most of the people here aren't serious artists. If your ultimate goal is to make a name for yourself in your art then you'll have to learn how to take negativity in its unsugarcoated forum, but this is supposed to be a casual environment for sharing, isn't it?

Again, it's just about respect. There's no justification for assaulting someone's ego, offering no constructive comment. Here or anywhere else. The difference is that, here, it can be controlled.

TheGermanLlama
24-08-11, 21:11
I wouldn't care.
I have a mindset to ignore anything that isn't constructive.

Well, you have a thick shell, strong mentality and are able to easily ignore insults and examine real constructive critiques.

Some do not have this mentality. To some people, it doesn't take much at all to damage their self-esteem.

lance6439
24-08-11, 21:12
I ask for a fair opinion on my art. lol

just*raidin*tomb
24-08-11, 21:12
^ No, actually, it's not ignorant. It's a valid point.
I think its ignorant to suggest that pure rudeness is okay.

"This looks like total ****. WTF are you even doing? You're not a ****ing artist!!"

I mean really? Do we have be so uncivilized to get a point across? I don't think so.

"I'm sorry, but I don't like it."

Much more civilized and polite.


I wouldn't care.
I have a mindset to ignore anything that isn't constructive.
That's good for you.

EscondeR
24-08-11, 21:12
Well, IMO if someones "creative work" sucks indeed and gets only a few (positive, "asskissing", whatever) comments then sinks down, it is an obvious sign (for the author and others) already that the work sucks and something needs to be changed/altered. There is no practical need to kick and mock someone just because they haven't mastered their field of art yet.

Really good work gets loads of positive replies when shared. Nothing else necessary to encourage.

Mikky
24-08-11, 21:14
I complete agree with what Funto said. I always have and I always will. I don't give a reason for liking something, so I don't see why I should give a reason for disliking something. And if people think it's rude, oh well, live with it. :p

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:17
I think its ignorant to suggest that pure rudeness is okay. I mean really? Do we have be so uncivilized to get a point across? I don't think so.

Oh hey, guess what? No one's suggesting that pure rudeness is okay.
You might not have noticed, but the original post is asking why it's allowed for mindless praise but not mindless criticism. No one ever suggested anything. If anything, it'd be suggested that mindless praise not be allowed either.

That's good for you.

http://i56.************/n5ftxl.jpg

I complete agree with what Funto said. I always have and I always will. I don't give a reason for liking something, so I don't see why I should give a reason for disliking something. And if people think it's rude, oh well, live with it. :p

Reminds me of that "sticks and stones my break my bones..." phrase. People should incorporate that back into their lives.

TheGermanLlama
24-08-11, 21:17
Well, IMO if someones "creative work" sucks indeed and gets only a few (positive, "asskissing", whatever) comments then sinks down, it is an obvious sign (for the author and others) already that the work sucks and something needs to be changed/altered. There is no practical need to kick and mock someone just because they haven't mastered their field of art yet.

Really good work gets loads of positive replies when shared. Nothing else necessary to encourage.

Well yeah.

I'm a member of a creative writing forum where we critique each other's stories (including our own). We don't tell each other that we suck at our own projects. We say, "Okay, look, here are some things you could do to make this better."

Sometimes someone has no idea how to make it work, so we have to build from the ground up.

EscondeR
24-08-11, 21:18
@ Mikky: Are you ready to stick to that principle when being judged yourself then? Not hitting the Report button each time?

Well yeah.

I'm a member of a creative writing forum where we critique each other's stories (including our own). We don't tell each other that we suck at our own projects. We say, "Okay, look, here are some things you could do to make this better."

Sometimes someone has no idea how to make it work, so we have to build from the ground up.
That is called "constructive criticism". TBH the OP haven't left the feeling that it was exactly what it aimed to conduct... at least for me...
Sorry, if I'm mistaking. I'd like to be, frankly speaking...

Rai
24-08-11, 21:18
I feel constructive criticism is far more helpful to an artist/writer than one word of praise or plain rudeness is. I admit I do sometimes will just say 'That's amazing' for a piece of work, usually art, if I do like a piece and as a non artist, I really don't feel adequately justified to say more. If I don't like something I just won't post or if I like it but I feel it is lacking in some way or can be improved I'll try and say. Sometimes one or two word answers are all you feel you can say. Though I see your point about the seemingly negative vibes over more negative opinions. There should not be one rule for 'nice' posts and another for 'bad' posts (amazing! or Ew etc).

Lenochka
24-08-11, 21:20
I think this is one of the reasons why people stay here. I always see comments about how this place is accepting and alot nicer than other communities. Sure you might have to bite your tongue from time to time, but overall it makes being here a lot more comfortable. If people want an abrasive, unpleasant, brutally honest environment they should look somewhere else.

lance6439
24-08-11, 21:21
http://i56.************/n5ftxl.jpg


LMFAO! XDD i love this gif....sorry for being off-topic. xD

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:21
I feel constructive criticism is far more helpful to an artist/writer than one word of praise or plain rudeness is.

I agree completely.
In spite of what just*raidin*tomb insinuated, I do not believe plain rudeness is okay, but if you can't be bothered to offer constructive praise, then don't bother commenting. You're not giving anything by giving mindless praise or criticism. :p

That's the point I was trying to make.
I think some people just enjoy deliberately taking things out of context.

I think this is one of the reasons why people stay here. I always see comments about how this place is accepting and alot nicer than other communities. Sure you might have to bite your tongue from time to time, but overall it makes being here a lot more comfortable. If people want an abrasive, unpleasant, brutally honest environment they should look somewhere else.

Just because TombRaiderForums is the land of naiveness and sprinkles and sunshine doesn't mean we have to disallow brutal honesty. People won't take things seriously if we sugar coat every sound that comes out of our mouths.

Lenochka
24-08-11, 21:26
Just because TombRaiderForums is the land of naiveness and sprinkles and sunshine doesn't mean we have to disallow brutal honesty. People won't take things seriously if we sugar coat every sound that comes out of our mouths.

Who cares? This is an internet forum based around a video game. I doubt most people joined to 'take things seriously'. I do agree that constructive criticism is fine, but people should be careful how far they go with it.

Rai
24-08-11, 21:30
I have noticed though that for some artists/writers even constructive criticism doesn't even go down so well. Say I or someone else says 'i like it but...[criticism here]..perhaps..' etc, the 'bad' part of the post can be jumped on and go down like a lead balloon. You have to be very careful how you word things. Artists are sensitive souls :p.

Angelus
24-08-11, 21:30
Who cares? This is an internet forum based around a video game. I doubt most people joined to 'take things seriously'. I do agree that constructive criticism is fine, but people should be careful how far they go with it.

Exactly. :tmb: If some members spoke to people in real life the way they do on here they'd get their heads caved in.

Weemanply109
24-08-11, 21:32
Exactly. :tmb: If some members spoke to people in real life the way they do on here they'd get their heads caved in.

:vlol: I love you :p

EscondeR
24-08-11, 21:36
Exactly. :tmb: If some members spoke to people in real life the way they do on here they'd get their heads caved in.

I guess I know who you're about :vlol: And, yes, he would :D

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:37
Who cares? This is an internet forum based around a video game. I doubt most people joined to 'take things seriously'. I do agree that constructive criticism is fine, but people should be careful how far they go with it.

Hey, guess what?
There are OTHER sub-forums here with OTHER topics to discuss.
There's even a debate forum. You think discussions in that forum are all sunshine and unicorns? No.

Exactly. :tmb: If some members spoke to people in real life the way they do on here they'd get their heads caved in.

Well if your attitude was as it was two years ago, you'd be the first.

Lenochka
24-08-11, 21:40
Hey, guess what?
There are OTHER sub-forums here with OTHER topics to discuss.
There's even a debate forum. You think discussions in that forum are all sunshine and unicorns? No.


Then why are you complaining? go hang out in there.

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:42
Then why are you complaining? go hang out in there.

1. I'm not complaining.
2. Those subjects don't interest me.
3. You're not God. Worry about yourself, not those around you.

Angelus
24-08-11, 21:43
1. I'm not complaining.
2. Those subjects don't interest me.
3. You're not God. Worry about yourself, not those around you.

If you took your own advice then this thread wouldn't exist.

lance6439
24-08-11, 21:43
Just because TombRaiderForums is the land of naiveness and sprinkles and sunshine doesn't mean we have to disallow brutal honesty. People won't take things seriously if we sugar coat every sound that comes out of our mouths.

Totally the opposite sometimes .. IMO .... but i think some people should be honest :)

Sgt BOMBULOUS
24-08-11, 21:44
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that has noticed that people heap only positive praise onto... ANYTHING. I think they're all just too worried about hurting someones feelings. Notice how I never make an appearance in the fan artwork section? :wve:

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:49
If you took your own advice then this thread wouldn't exist.

That was a rather failed attempt at being ironic and holier-than-thou. Try harder next time. I'm not worrying about anyone, just sharing my opinion.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that has noticed that people heap only positive praise onto... ANYTHING. I think they're all just too worried about hurting someones feelings. Notice how I never make an appearance in the fan artwork section? :wve:

:vlol:
I only make comments on writing, when I know I can offer constructive criticism. Otherwise, I don't say anything.

Spong
24-08-11, 21:50
Notice how I never make an appearance in the fan artwork section? :wve:

Ditto.

Angelus
24-08-11, 21:52
That was a rather failed attempt at being ironic and holier-than-thou. Try harder next time. I'm not worrying about anyone, just sharing my opinion.



:vlol:
I only make comments on writing, when I know I can offer constructive criticism. Otherwise, I don't say anything.

I'm glad it failed because that's not what I was trying to do at all, I was just "sharing my opinion." ;)

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:57
I'm glad it failed because that's not what I was trying to do at all, I was just "sharing my opinion." ;)

http://i25.************/16appn4.jpg

larafan25
24-08-11, 21:58
why is it okay for members to blindly praise it by saying "Wow that's amazing!" "AWESOME!!1!" etc. but it's not okay to blindly criticize it by saying "I think it's bad" or "It sucks" or "Ew!" ?

Because I will get bent out of shape.

Catracoth
24-08-11, 21:59
Because I will get bent out of shape.

That sucks.

Weemanply109
24-08-11, 22:02
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that has noticed that people heap only positive praise onto... ANYTHING. I think they're all just too worried about hurting someones feelings. Notice how I never make an appearance in the fan artwork section? :wve:

I agree, check the Forum Member Picture thread :p

Spong
24-08-11, 22:02
I agree, check the Forum Member Picture thread :p

Again, ditto.

Nerd For Life
24-08-11, 22:03
I do think the reason constructive criticism isn't even given to people who post their art because they're either: a) super sensitive about it and say things like "but it's my style!" "I intended for that arm to look like it's been run over by a truck!", b) get their army of friends defending said artist "omg nobody asked u! if u dont hav nething nice 2 say, say nuthin at all!" and variants of these, c) purely ignore it and reply only when their work is being praised.

Catracoth
24-08-11, 22:03
I do think the reason constructive criticism isn't even given to people who post their art because they're either: a) super sensitive about it and say things like "but it's my style!" "I intended for that arm to look like it's been run over by a truck!", b) get their army of friends defending said artist "omg nobody asked u! if u dont hav nething nice 2 say, say nuthin at all!" and variants of these, c) purely ignore it and reply only when their work is being praised.

:vlol:
Way too true.

larafan25
24-08-11, 22:05
That sucks.

Getting bent out of shape about everything? Or just the smallest things?

Yes, it does. We should all give ourselves an easier time.

I do think that if you have a negative view, it can't merely be a negative view, you should give more reason. For the sake of civility, people can still post short, sweet, and maybe hollow compliments.

At the same time. I pester the crap out of people when they say something good or bad about a TR game, looking for an explanation.

I guess we could just leave it to the author of the work, if they want a better explanation, then they can ask for it.

Lately I can't help but feel people are trying to be stupid (yeah that was rude). There is frequently a fan art thread posted in one of the TR game sections, and it's obvious that it's just art in the wrong section yet people will spam the beginnings of the thread with "WTF?" answers.

If someone says "I made...blah blah....", then that's the hint.

toxicraider
24-08-11, 22:07
I'm not sure how it is any different to real life, to be honest. I don't think we are really banned from posting negative comments; people just assume the reaction would be bad, so don't post them. Posting negative comments without any constructive aid doesn't really serve any purpose whatsoever, whereas saying nice things, albeit without being constructive, would at least give confidence. For this reason I don't say anything if I can't say anything nice and can't think of any constructive comment.


I complete agree with what Funto said. I always have and I always will. I don't give a reason for liking something, so I don't see why I should give a reason for disliking something. And if people think it's rude, oh well, live with it. :p
I really interpreted Funto as saying 'positive comments without construction are as bad as negative comments without construction', and that you shouldn't do either, not that you should do both. :p

Dark Lugia 2
24-08-11, 22:13
Its better to be nice and keep a friendly atmosphere really. Seeing negative comments everywhere 'just because' where would be enough for lots of members to leave. I see your point, though I don't think its a very important issue.

It can get annoying though, you see comments from some people's forum friends that are a little OTT, like "Omg! SO AMAZING Draw more :hug: Its so good!" And I'm thinking is anyone going to offer some honest constructive criticism, or are y'all going to carry on giving fake compliments to make your friend feel good? Cause I sure don't want to spoil any party with my constructive criticism if its going to be received negatively... even if its something like "If you take a little more time with your shading it'll look better, but it still looks great!" you'll get someone else saying "Well... I think your shading is FANTASTIC the way it is :hug:"

KC Mraz
24-08-11, 22:13
I agree, check the Forum Member Picture thread :p

YES! The amount of mutual praise in thread in unbearable, one of the forum's darkest spots. Same could be said, to an extent, to the "Your mood" thread.

Tony9595
24-08-11, 22:19
I really love it when X member posts the most horrible thing ever and yet their (lol) online friends go and say it's the best thing their eyes have ever seen. But I've took the silent way and just go to another thread. (to get some more lulz)

jarekhanzelka
24-08-11, 22:22
if u dont hav nething nice 2 say, say nuthin at all!

Oh god...that line. That sentence. Those words. Couldn't count how many times I've read it around here, never once understanding what kind of point was it supposed to make. :confused:

Anyway I agree. Both blind praise and pure rudeness should be outta anywhere. It's not hard to write at least something somehow constructive. Saying "omg that's amazing!!" seems just lazy, if you ask me. And perhaps a good way to rapidly boost up your post number.

trlestew
24-08-11, 22:23
Your OP is AWESOME!!1! :p

I don't like blind praise either, but blind criticism isn't any better. Both just seem like "lazy posts" to me.

xXhayleyroxXx
24-08-11, 22:26
I believe in constructive criticism -- but it has to be very VERY carefully worded or it can upset and bring people down. You have to genuinely want to help that person instead of being like 'oh, thats ****. Try again'. Or it could achieve the complete opposite. Comments like 'ZOMG AWESOME' can make people work harder, believe it or not. If used together -- with a comment that is highly detailed and thought out -- it'll probably mean a hell of a lot more and help out in the process. Win, win situation :)

sheepman23
24-08-11, 22:31
I think I'm in agreeance with the OP. In my review threads, it's always good to either have someone post:

A) Something saying "great job!" but also elaborating as to why they think it was good, or
B) Asking if something could be changed to improve the reviews (constructive criticism)

Comments like "OMG this is amazing!!!!!" are OK, but don't actually add anything to the work. ;)

Gracious Days
24-08-11, 22:37
Well. I don't think anyone would post something to be judged on that they themselves didn't think was at least good. Most people are probably proud of what they do so, they like to have their ego stroked a bit and others are happy to do so. :p That's why I think it's not unreasonable to expect "blind praise", although I'd still also like people to expand upon why they like a certain something. Constructive critcism is also always welcome as far am I'm concerned.

People who rush to someone's aid when there's a negative opinion, well those people are probably underestimating their friends. They can handle it, and most likely welcome it. What "artist" wouldn't want to improve their craft?

matrix54
24-08-11, 22:38
This reminds me of the Tomb Raider Level Editor forum - those who visit can agree. I've seem rooms that could use a lot of improvement, but instead of actually telling someone where they need help, or how to actually improve - both gameplay and visual quality - we get a bunch of "That looks amazing!"s or "OMG! :eek:"s, and I, myself, can spot quite a few flaws.

I don't give a lot of feed back because people tend start flying off the wall and go bananas because you'll say something such as this:

"I don't think the room is lit properly, and it looks very flat. Maybe you could try to use a shadow bulb in the corner to give the room some depth, and a sun bulb to give the room atmosphere."

Immediately following comes a post like this:

"What are you talking about about? That room looks Fantastic! Don't change a thing!"

Which is more helpful? Telling someone something to give them a little bit of confidence momentarily, or telling them something that could better their skills and give them even more confidence. Of course, the person who made the room/level/whatever WILL wig out and go on tirade, removing posts and images, blocking comments and threatening to cancel projects because someone has said their room need a bit of lighting work.

Anyone who has been on the Level Editor forum for more than a few years (or maybe even months) will know this happens quite often. Such a shame. Therefore, threads are flooded with praise and not help.

aidanmalone
24-08-11, 22:41
^Titak handles that quite well :)

larson n natla
24-08-11, 22:43
It's my view that if you have formulated an opinion, and it is asked for, that you should be able to do with it what you wish.

If you dislike something, you can tell the person, give reason and turn it into something positive, or just insult and come across as a slight jerk.

In the end it's up to you. Just don't expect there not to be a consequence.

Nerd For Life
24-08-11, 22:51
Oh god...that line. That sentence. Those words. Couldn't count how many times I've read it around here, never once understanding what kind of point was it supposed to make. :confused:

[...] Saying "omg that's amazing!!" seems just lazy, if you ask me. And perhaps a good way to rapidly boost up your post number.

Yes, I don't get it either. Unless you're being a right jerk, I don't see a reason why constructive criticism shouldn't be given to people who are posting their art or things of the sort.

Hearing "omg that's amazing!" over and over again won't give people room to improve and work out things they could be doing better.

EscondeR
24-08-11, 23:01
Yet you won't deny that simple "that sucks" comment is useless crap. For God's sake write "that sucks, because this and that... you'd better ...". And if someone is going to write "you're a blind idiot and your art is poop", they can equally easy STFU or shout that from their window... not to clog people's caches :p

Encore
24-08-11, 23:02
Well, I already commented on this on the other thread.

I'd just like to add one other thing: I personally have stopped making negative comments on other people's artwork, period. I've realized that 99% of the people who post online just don't want to hear anything negative, even if they claim they welcome so called "constructive" comments. And I'm not gonna risk getting flamed back just for a chance of hitting those other 1% who honestly don't mind.

And one funny thing that happened to me and that I've seen quite often on DA - sometimes, the artist him/herself isn't the one that gets most offended by a negative comment. It's the "groupies". IE, those fans who religiously follow that person's art and will post "ZOMG THIS IS THE BEST DRAWING EVAAAAAA ;_;" on every single work.:p

sheepman23
24-08-11, 23:03
@ matrix54 - I check out the TRLE forum now and then, and due to my lack of experience with even making custom levels, I tend to not post anything regarding the projects, unless there's something that I can truly say is fantastic. :D I guess I don't want to suggest anything, since it's hard for me to know what making a custom game is like (since I've never done one myself :o).

matrix54
24-08-11, 23:08
@ matrix54 - I check out the TRLE forum now and then, and due to my lack of experience with even making custom levels, I tend to not post anything regarding the projects, unless there's something that I can truly say is fantastic. :D I guess I don't want to suggest anything, since it's hard for me to know what making a custom game is like (since I've never done one myself :o).

Well, if you think anything could be of help, try and help. Stretched walls textures are not nice looking - we all know this. People really do want to say something, but it's hard because of [refer to my previous post].

You can show off what you want, that's up to you - the good and the bad, but if viewers actually posted helpful comments and creators actually used them, the community would have a hell of a lot less cracks and stretched walls,and pointlessly large rooms that do nothing. ;)


And one funny thing that happened to me and that I've seen quite often on DA - sometimes, the artist him/herself isn't the one that gets most offended by a negative comment. It's the "groupies". IE, those fans who religiously follow that person's art and will post "ZOMG THIS IS THE BEST DRAWING EVAAAAAA ;_;" on every single work.:p

If I see another "It's not bad because they worked really hard on it" again, I'll claw someones eyes out with a barbie sized butcher knife. :pi:

klona
24-08-11, 23:09
^Titak handles that quite well :)

Titak is the MASTAH of TRLE... :mis:

matrix54
24-08-11, 23:12
Not to be an meanie or anything (I really don't want to be) but she isn't. She does DAMN GOOD work, but she is not.

Paddy
24-08-11, 23:28
If someone gets offended by a constructive and well thought out honest opinion then its them with the problem in my opinion, if you are gonna do projects with intent to display you gotta be prepared for possibly criticism.
Easier to respect people who can handle criticism when it is called for.
How do they get better if you won't point out where you think they went wrong otherwise?

sheepman23
24-08-11, 23:29
Well, if you think anything could be of help, try and help. Stretched walls textures are not nice looking - we all know this. People really do want to say something, but it's hard because of [refer to my previous post].

You can show off what you want, that's up to you - the good and the bad, but if viewers actually posted helpful comments and creators actually used them, the community would have a hell of a lot less cracks and stretched walls,and pointlessly large rooms that do nothing. ;)

Well, I obviously can tell when a wall texture is stretched badly :p, but I sometimes feel that any advice from myself would be immediately discredited, as I have very little knowledge with the Level Editor (I'm still learning ;)). And there seem to be plenty of skilled designers on there who provide enough constructive criticism that my comments probably aren't needed as much. :)

Funto
24-08-11, 23:34
Just so we're clear, that wasn't related to these forums. I was merely rambling about my life, and although it fits when talking about TRF or plenty other topics, such as art, that wasn't the case at all. This friend of mine asked me if I would read her master's dissertation. I did, and the first thing I said was that it sucked. Her subject is interesting, but what she's done with it so far is terrible. Of course her work is nowhere near completion, and I did offer help, things I'd change, bibliography, etc., but I basically thrashed her work.

Her first reaction wasn't that good, saying I should be more "político" (hence the political correctness comment), mentioning that quite a few people said it was good, but I don't do that. Now here's the funny part, when I asked her "what did they like about it?" her answer was "I don't know, I didn't ask." And I bet they wouldn't know either, if she had asked them. So why do they get away with a simple "AWESOME!!1ÇL12!"? So you see, I bashed her work but I gave something back, while most people just go "yeah, it's cool" and it stops there because that's safer than saying that it's just not good.

The point is, I'm not stupid, I know everyone likes to hear compliments, but I often wonder how honest they are. I tend to be a "negative" person, and I prefer when someone criticizes whatever it is that I did because it feels more genuine. Today I can safely say that quite a few people like the fact that I don't "hold back" with my comments. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they disagree, sometimes they prove me wrong and put me in my place, and life goes on. To me, that's far better than being false just so everyone can be happy, but I do know there's a right time and place where being false is what I should do.

I do see people praising each other left and right here on TRF, but I figure, from what I've seen so far, that this is a place where people come to feel good about themselves, so I try to avoid saying anything that others might not like, since I see a lot of "if you have nothing to say then don't".

If people want an abrasive, unpleasant, brutally honest environment they should look somewhere else.

Look no further than outside your window.

Also, Spong's comments in this thread are pretty funny.

Encore
24-08-11, 23:34
If someone gets offended by a constructive and well thought out honest opinion then its them with the problem in my opinion, if you are gonna do projects with intent to display you gotta be prepared for possibly criticism.
Easier to respect people who can handle criticism when it is called for.
How do they get better if you won't point out where you think they went wrong otherwise?

Yes that's true especially for people with ambitions of working in any sort of art related job. If you're serious about it, you have to be ready, because you'll get FAR WORST comments for sure. And - just as an example - if you're making art for a client, the client doesn't have to tell you why he dislikes your work. All he has to say is that he dislikes it, and it's your job to make it the way he wants.

That's the real world.

Nerd For Life
24-08-11, 23:37
Yet you won't deny that simple "that sucks" comment is useless crap. For God's sake write "that sucks, because this and that... you'd better ...". And if someone is going to write "you're a blind idiot and your art is poop", they can equally easy STFU or shout that from their window... not to clog people's caches :p

Have you actually read my posts?


Yes, I don't get it either. Unless you're being a right jerk, I don't see a reason why constructive criticism shouldn't be given to people who are posting their art or things of the sort.

I think "that sucks", "you're a blind idiot and your art is poop" fall under the category of being a jerk.

Funto
25-08-11, 00:00
the client doesn't have to tell you why he dislikes your work. All he has to say is that he dislikes it, and it's your job to make it the way he wants.

That's the real world.

Very true. The client may not even know what he wants, so you create the greatest visual identity ever made, for example, and he'll say "oh, but I just saw this clip-art here, it looks pretty cool, can you do this? Also can you use comic sans it's so pretty." There's no middle finger big enough.

The internet is a very hostile place, so people should use it as a tool to get thicker skin. This is constructive criticism, right?

Paddy
25-08-11, 00:03
Very true. The client may not even know what he wants, so you create the greatest visual identity ever made, for example, and he'll say "oh, but I just saw this clip-art here, it looks pretty cool, can you do this? Also can you use comic sans it's so pretty." There's no middle finger big enough.

The internet is a very hostile place, so people should use it as a tool to get thicker skin. This is constructive criticism, right?

Agreed.

matrix54
25-08-11, 00:08
^Oh, if that's the case, than why do they need an artist in the first place. If all your doing is copying/emulating something else, then why get an artist? Design isn't a vary hard skill to learn - it take no time at all to crack open MS Paint and go bananas.

Tombraiderx08
25-08-11, 00:13
Idk. I mean, if they like something, they should just say so without going overboard. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to be an ass about it and they can just say "I don't like this...and here's why" or "This doesn't quite appeal to me, but here's why." without totally talking something down.

t-raider26
25-08-11, 00:15
I agree. I mean, if someone is going to post anything on the internet, I'm sure they know that not everyone is going to like it. I think that people should be able to say they dislike it if they really dislike it, and people should say they like it if they really like it. However, when it gets to the point where it's rude and hurtful, it needs to stop. People, on this forum especially, don't seem to know where to draw the line between rude, and constructive criticism.

patriots88888
25-08-11, 03:09
Is the OP's point restricted to only artistic works?

I just recently stated in the TR level poll thread that Desert Railroad sucks but went on to say why I believe that to be true. Just leaving my comment to a one-liner would only cause others to question why I feel that way so it only makes sense to be as expressive as possible as to my reasons. It's compulsive of me to try my best to be as complete as possible in my views so I can avoid all the, 'Well your opinion sucks' replies. :vlol:... at least there's something tangible behind my opinions/views by stating those reasons and they lend a more focused direction for positive discussion to build off of them. :)

Paddy
25-08-11, 03:12
I noticed this elsewhere that whenever someone has a negative opinion of something they are deemed close minded which is the most common pathetic argument someone could use to why something is good. Heck it happens here too, people get looked down upon and are deemed close minded if they don't agree with the rest, actually having your own opinion here is looked down on.

Sir Croft
25-08-11, 03:18
People are very protective about their work, and most will get pissed at the simplest "I don't like it", so I guess it's better to just avoid it.

cbragg09
25-08-11, 03:26
There is a difference between being positively critical about something and negatively critical about something. But I agree, it seems well and dandy to like anything you want on here but the second you dislike something or its not what you prefer, some folks go haywire.

It is odd

Paddy
25-08-11, 03:31
People are very protective about their work, and most will get pissed at the simplest "I don't like it", so I guess it's better to just avoid it.

If they intend to be a professional artist they better get used to people saying that.

Quasimodo
25-08-11, 03:57
S/he raised an interesting and incredibly true point: when members share their creative work or what-have-you on the forum, why is it okay for members to blindly praise it by saying "Wow that's amazing!" "AWESOME!!1!" etc. but it's not okay to blindly criticize it by saying "I think it's bad" or "It sucks" or "Ew!" ? Neither of those blind statements offer detail or constructive criticism as to what is so good about it or what is so bad. So why is it that the positive aspect is allowed and encouraged?

It's nice to get comments like "that's awesome" on your creative work, but I know the comments that really brighten my day are ones where folks compliment something specific about the work. When I posted the cover art for a TR origins fan comic way back, Reggie typed out a really thoughtful comment about inferences he made about the story based on the way I painted Lara's expression and the content and style of the background. That's an exceptional example, but I do try to comment on something specific about a work to sorta pay that feeling forward.

I do feel awkward giving criticism on people's work here, but sometimes you do people a disservice by not pointing something out that they could improve on next time. I felt like I was too harsh in my feedback on the voting thread for the 14th fanfic comp. I pointed out some things that didn't work in some of the entries, but I didn't go into detail about why those certain aspects didn't strengthen their entries. The last thing you want to do is give someone the impression that they goofed up the whole thing and shouldn't try to be creative anymore.

It's easier to accept a "that's awesome!" than a "that sucks!," but neither of those provide a person with information that could help them grow creatively.

NRO.
25-08-11, 04:19
Sorry if I misunderstood, but this is my very artsy opinion:

It's okay when you point out what's wrong. It's not okay when you only post "I hate it" "I don't like it" "It sucks". Well, what sucks with it? The hand shape? The shading? I like when people point it out so I can improve next time.