View Full Version : If there is a God, then who created God
I don't want to be against any religion and anyone is entitled to what they want to believe in their life, but I think this is a good question. We might never know the real answer but who created God? I don't really know what to answer but the nearest thing I heard was that God has and will always be there. What do you think. Also if this does feel like it is upsetting what you believe, then ask the Mods to close this thread, the last thing I want to do is to upset anyone to what they believe in.
scoopy_loopy
11-10-11, 08:57
In the beginning there was God.
Duh.
In the beginning there was God.
Duh.
Yeah, but something must of created "God".
sandygrimm
11-10-11, 09:08
According to belief, God is, was, and forever will be= infinite, he always was it's too much for us to understand.
That or humans imagination of higher power.
Or collision of multiverses
Or the egg, or chicken.
Can you imagine space? As endless... space, which is in... guess... space :p
Take God existance (if you believe in God) right the same ;)
Can you imagine space? As endless... space, which is in... guess... space :p
Take God existance (if you believe in God) right the same ;)
So you're saying God, just goes on, and on, and on, longer then any human could imagine.
I'm not saying that ;)
But theoretically - why not?
Even absolute vacuum has some energy/fluctuations, just out of nowhere. Some things are just there, they don't have to be created by something or someone. M-theory would say you that :wve:
scoopy_loopy
11-10-11, 09:26
Yeah, but something must of created "God".
Tee hee, actually I asked my sunday school teacher this same question when I was 6 or 7 and she gave me the same answer as I gave you, minus the, "duh". Then she brought out a Bible, it's the very first line. It's one of my clearest memories and I think the first time I ever remember being frustrated by someone's opinion on what was logical.
Religion and science both have an insatiable fixation on needing a beginning for everything.
I personally don't see why it is necessary for there to be one.
Religion and science both have an insatiable fixation on needing a beginning for everything.
I personally don't see why it is necessary for there to be one.
Why not? We would be able to track the earlest of our routes. I'd say before the dinosaurs (if we haven't gone that far yet).
Shark_Blade
11-10-11, 09:54
God is Eternal and Absolute.
Our knowledge is limited, so we wouldn't know much (yet?).
The whole thing with the life, planets, universe, god, anything related with US is just a mystery, we'll never know!
If there was a god how did he crate the planet and us, who created him, who created the human that created god.. who made the universe, what about the past before universe was made... UHH!! Don't think about it cause you'll never get the right answer. ;)
Why not? We would be able to track the earlest of our routes. I'd say before the dinosaurs (if we haven't gone that far yet).
How does that relate to the beginning of the universe?
Core Design did, just a little before they created Tomb Raider.
The whole thing with the life, planets, universe, god, anything related with US is just a mystery, we'll never know!
If there was a god how did he crate the planet and us, who created him, who created the human that created god.. who made the universe, what about the past before universe was made... UHH!! Don't think about it cause you'll never get the right answer. ;)
Wrong approach. If everybody though this way we would never have quantum mechanics, cosmology, astrophysics and many other sciences. People would just browse for internet pr0n and nothing more. Wait ... there wouldn't be even internet.
Wrong approach. If everybody though this way we would never have quantum mechanics, cosmology, astrophysics and many other sciences. People would just browse for internet pr0n and nothing more. Wait ... there wouldn't be even internet.
Ok then tell me if there was the "Big Bang" thing how did the universe look like before it? And all the documentaries made for the big bang are just one suppose.
Everything is made by something, have that in mind.
P.S. I'm not against GOD, or science just saying my opinion, that's all
Debating the origins of mankind is a big enough can of worms, this can of worms is in a league of it's own.
But since there's a thread about it, I don't think about it. Not to say that the thought of how did God come into existence hasn't crossed my mind, it's just too complicated to understand.
If there is a God, then who created God
I did! ;)
No... but there are things you can't explain. It's like asking ourselves "Why do we exist? Why does the universe exists?", it's nearly impossible to explain what we are or how we became what we are, with science or without.
I did! ;)
No... but there are things you can't explain. It's like asking ourselves "Why do we exist? Why does the universe exists?", it's nearly impossible to explain what we are or how we became what we are, with science or without.
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! YOU'RE THE BEST!
I LOVE YOU! :gki:
Ok then tell me if there was the "Big Bang" thing how did the universe look like before it? And all the documentaries made for the big bang are just one suppose.Universe was created after the Big Bang. What was before that no one can tell. And it's a theory. It can be wrong but it doesn't mean that it is wrong. That's why people work on this theory.
Everything is made by something, have that in mind.
Not necessarily. A theory of everything (TOE) suggests that universes can be created spontaneously. No third parties required. To approve/disprove all these theories humankind needs some time ;)
Not necessarily. A theory of everything (TOE) suggests that universes can be created spontaneously. No third parties required. To approve/disprove all these theories humankind needs some time ;)
I know this is theory placed into sci-fi but there is sort of a third party to creating universes, we are the sort-off third party in creating universes. Every choice we make could result in creating a universer.
Who knows ...
Who was one for first?! Egg or Chicken?!
ultima espio
11-10-11, 11:48
I was just thinking about this, it's an interesting thought :)
I doubt he created "himself".
You can say us human beings have a hunger for knowledge. Now, the Bible comes to explain to us how the world was formed, but since we live in slightly more modern times, this explanation is not accepted by a lot of people, so they feel the urge to discover how the universe we live in came to existence.
We will never know if these theories are correct, no matter how much we will look into them, simply because we are not supposed to bother ourselves with these thoughts. :)
I know this is theory placed into sci-fi but there is sort of a third party to creating universes, we are the sort-off third party in creating universes.TOE is no sci-fi. It's real theory which physicists are studying. Because neither future nor past are defined. In quantum world present events can depend on the future events. What's strange for regular world ain't strange for the quantum world.
Every choice we make could result in creating a universer.
Every choice we make affects future and past at the same time, it builds another sets of alternate realities. Every your choice creates reality. In this case you're right, we create them every moment.
You can say us human beings have a hunger for knowledge. Now, the Bible comes to explain to us how the world was formed, but since we live in slightly more modern times, this explanation is not accepted by a lot of people, so they feel the urge to discover how the universe we live in came to existence.
We will never know if these theories are correct, no matter how much we will look into them, simply because we are not supposed to bother ourselves with these thoughts. :)
I agree with you :)
Who knows ...
Who was one for first?! Egg or Chicken?!
to remind me on that one :) my grandmah used to tell me that! none of them :)
Personally, I don't believe that there is a god. But if there was one, I don't think it would be necessarily wrong to say "nobody created God, he has existed for always". If there truly is such a supernatural entity, then there is no guarantee that our concept of time even applies to it.
On an unrelated note:
Who knows ...
Who was one for first?! Egg or Chicken?!
Egg. Duh.
I was just thinking about this, it's an interesting thought :)
I doubt he created "himself".
Exactly
You can say us human beings have a hunger for knowledge. Now, the Bible comes to explain to us how the world was formed, but since we live in slightly more modern times, this explanation is not accepted by a lot of people, so they feel the urge to discover how the universe we live in came to existence.
We will never know if these theories are correct, no matter how much we will look into them, simply because we are not supposed to bother ourselves with these thoughts. :)
So your saying that in away, it might be good, that we might never know the answer.
to remind me on that one :) my grandmah used to tell me that! none of them :)
All grandees told that! :D
Personally, I don't believe that there is a god. But if there was one, I don't think it would be necessarily wrong to say "nobody created God, he has existed for always". If there truly is such a supernatural entity, then there is no guarantee that our concept of time even applies to it.
On an unrelated note:
Egg. Duh.
Than who was created Egg?! You will never knows the answer.
Actually it wasn't, I've said that because of you will never knows what was exist from First One, it's always mention to be a existing a god, and that's created us, but patently question is who is the god, and why and what is that for?! I think ...
I believe in god, and respect it who doesn't, it must be a reason for all of this.
we might never know the real answer but who created god?
The SUPERGOD.
So your saying that in away, it might be good, that we might never know the answer.
Well, yes. I think that's why it's so complicated and above our level of comprehension. :o
In anicent times, people mostly relied on religion to explain a lot of things, like our existence and the existence of God. Some people still do rely on religion to explain these matters, but some had moved to science. You can say that, for some people, science is religion. I assume these people aspire to expand and share their knowledge, just like people shared and believed in religion and God in ancient times.
I don't believe in God or any other god but if he truly existed my best guess is that he had been existing before the beginning of, everything.
It's, obviously, something that whoever began Christianity forgot to add.
I don't believe in God or any other god but if he truly existed my best guess is that he had been existing before the beginning of, everything.
It's, obviously, something that whoever began Christianity forgot to add.
Wasn't God mentioned before Christianity? Also I know God is discribed as a man with a long white beard in a white robe. But who knows? God could be a woman.
Than who was created Egg?! You will never knows the answer.
I never understood the particular chicken and egg question, because I think it's obvious: All birds lay eggs, and have laid eggs long before the modern chicken developed. In fact, most animals lay eggs, including several extinct species (such as all dinosaurs). These eggs are the ancestors of modern chickens, so obviously the egg came first.
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 12:26
I never understood the particular chicken and egg question, because I think it's obvious: All birds lay eggs, and have laid eggs long before the modern chicken developed. In fact, most animals lay eggs, including several extinct species (such as all dinosaurs). These eggs are the ancestors of modern chickens, so obviously the egg came first.
It goes further than even that, these ancient egg laying creatures came from eggs but if the egg came first what laid it? (I know you are toying with the age old question, chicken or egg and focusing on the word chicken but it is still a valid question)
It goes further than even that, these ancient egg laying creatures came from eggs but if the egg came first what laid it? (I know you are toying with the age old question, chicken or egg and focusing on the word chicken but it is still a valid question)
As the first living creatures were unicellular organisms who reproduced via division (without eggs), the creatures who eventually came to lay eggs were there first.
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 12:34
As the first living creatures were unicellular organisms who reproduced via division (without eggs), the creatures who eventually came to lay eggs were there first.
Then it is not a question of chickens or eggs, it is a question of what came before unicellular organisms?
Wasn't God mentioned before Christianity? Also I know God is discribed as a man with a long white beard in a white robe. But who knows? God could be a woman.
Was he, I don't know :p ? By Saying "God" I mean the god Christians worship, not another god before him and, from what I know, the Christians are the ones who "invented"/started to believe in God first. What you describe is propably not God, God doesn't look like something, it's just that, if you believe, you know he's there.
It goes further than even that, these ancient egg laying creatures came from eggs but if the egg came first what laid it? (I know you are toying with the age old question, chicken or egg and focusing on the word chicken but it is still a valid question)
Did we, human beings, needed to be born by some other human? No, we were created by microbes, which evolved to fish, which evolved to serpents, which evolved to apes, which evolved to human beings.
My best guess is that birds started as microbes, then became fish, then dinosaurs, then flying dinosaurs and then some sort of prehistoric birds.
Then it is not a question of chickens or eggs, it is a question of what came before unicellular organisms?
From what I know so far these unicelar organisms were created by the big bang, so I guess they existed somehwere in the big planet than later broke apart and became our solar system.
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 12:43
So all life came from microbes or bacteria, which came from the big bang. What was before the big bang? Even an endless void of blackness is still something I guess.
Was he, I don't know :p ? By Saying "God" I mean the god Christians worship, not another god before him and, from what I know, the Christians are the ones who "invented"/started to believe in God first. What you describe is propably not God, God doesn't look like something, it's just that, if you believe, you know he's there.
Well I think Judaism started well before Christianity and Christianity was founded within Judaism. Jesus, who we know as the son of God, was actually Jewish himself, and he was one of the founders of Christianity.
So all life came from microbes or bacteria, which came from the big bang. What was before the big bang? Even an endless void of blackness is still something I guess.
There must've always been something before something else. I guess the only way it would make sense to us would be if it was like an endless cycle. That, one day, our universe is going to go back into the state it was in before the big bang, that there's going to be another big bang and there you go again :p.
Avalon SARL
11-10-11, 12:56
Surat Al-'Ikhlāş (The Sincerity) - سورة الإخلاص
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
Thinking of GOD drives someone crazy actually, that is why in Islam we are advised to admire GOD'sCreations and not think of GOD Himself because it is useless and our brains cannot acquire an answer about that.
There must've always been something before something else. I guess the only way it would make sense to us would be if it was like an endless cycle. That, one day, our universe is going to go back into the state it was in before the big bang, that there's going to be another big bang and there you go again :p.
That is totaly true actually
The universe and the world are going back to their original and there will be another big bang, but in the Quran it says that at this time resurrection takes place :)
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 13:02
There must've always been something before something else. I guess the only way it would make sense to us would be if it was like an endless cycle. That, one day, our universe is going to go back into the state it was in before the big bang, that there's going to be another big bang and there you go again :p.
What if everything that we have ever known or claim to know about our creation is all wrong? Now I don't want to come off as a crazy person, just somebody with a healthy imagination;
What if we were created by other beings from the other end of infinity as a sort of petri dish experiment for example.
I know that kind of trails off as being a little off topic and maybe a little crazy. Heck, it doesn't need answering. Just food for thought really, spark off a discussion.
patriots88888
11-10-11, 13:14
I don't believe in God or any other god but if he truly existed my best guess is that he had been existing before the beginning of, everything.
It's, obviously, something that whoever began Christianity forgot to add.
Not true, it is accepted that God is the Alpha and the Omega. Nothing more needs to be said in this respect nor explained as that should be self-explanatory and understood as is. Your 'best guess' indicates this... 'all eternal'.
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 13:19
Not true, it is accepted that God is the Alpha and the Omega. Nothing more needs to be said in this respect nor explained as that should be self-explanatory and understood as is. Your 'best guess' indicates this... 'all eternal'.
It's not accepted at all, and a lot needs to be said about the subject. The existence of god is accepted by those of faith, while he is not accepted by people with no faith. It's a subject that can neither be proved or disproved. You cannot say that something like this is accepted and there is no call to challenge that statement.
Avalon SARL
11-10-11, 13:22
May I ask why are Atheists so much in pain and always nagging about GOD and seek many ways in trying to disprove Him :confused:
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 13:28
May I ask why are Atheists so much in pain and always nagging about GOD and seek many ways in trying to disprove Him :confused:
It's a two way street I'm afraid. Atheists try to disprove while the faithful try to prove. Either choice is acceptable but the one that is not chosen will always leave a bad taste in the others mouth.
Avalon SARL
11-10-11, 13:35
It's a two way street I'm afraid. Atheists try to disprove while the faithful try to prove. Either choice is acceptable but the one that is not chosen will always leave a bad taste in the others mouth.
Actually atheists do it much more and more and they try to prove it with any single thing they do
Faithfuls don't have this as much as atheists do; when something complex gets in our face... ok, great lord... and we move on :)
However atheists make things very complex for themselves and everyone else and it is sad their answers are always fruitless and some answers are given to them which they reject before even considering them ;)
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 13:38
Actually atheists do it much more and more and they try to prove it with any single thing they do
Faithfuls don't have this as much as atheists do; when something complex gets in our face... ok, great lord... and we move on :)
However atheists make things very complex for themselves and everyone else and it is sad their answers are always fruitless and some answers are given to them which they reject before even considering them ;)
Yes but you are singling out atheists as being all the same, I know that all people are different and should have different opinions. True that there are people that are forceful in their opinions (both faithful and faithless) you cannot generalize in such a way as it is simply untrue.
I did! ;)
No... but there are things you can't explain. It's like asking ourselves "Why do we exist? Why does the universe exists?", it's nearly impossible to explain what we are or how we became what we are, with science or without.
I'd just like to chime in, here, and note, for the record that: "Why do we exist?" and "How do we exist? (aka who or what being/process created us?)" are two completely different questions.
patriots88888
11-10-11, 14:07
It's not accepted at all, and a lot needs to be said about the subject. The existence of god is accepted by those of faith, while he is not accepted by people with no faith. It's a subject that can neither be proved or disproved. You cannot say that something like this is accepted and there is no call to challenge that statement.
Obviously, what was stated in my reply was directed at those who are believers. Which makes me wonder why anyone who doesn't would even care in the first place.
Tonyrobinson
11-10-11, 14:10
We are all just co-existing in one realm of fantasy in an age through time in a universal perception.
No idea.... :pi:
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 14:16
Obviously, what was stated in my reply was directed at those who are believers. Which makes me wonder why anyone who doesn't would even care in the first place.
I care because this is a discussion, and singling out the non-believers would seem pretty pointless for a discussion. Doesn't it just fascinate you though, other people's way of thinking and believing? I mean a world that is completely run by a religious way of thinking, that's pretty extraordinary if you think about it from a non-believer's point of view, is it not?
Actually atheists do it much more and more and they try to prove it with any single thing they do
Well, those atheists are foolish and hardly representative. Everyone knows the burden of proof is on the believers since you cannot prove a negative.
However atheists make things very complex for themselves and everyone else and it is sad their answers are always fruitless and some answers are given to them which they reject before even considering them ;)
What does this even mean?
patriots88888
11-10-11, 14:32
I care because this is a discussion, and singling out the non-believers would seem pretty pointless for a discussion. Doesn't it just fascinate you though, other people's way of thinking and believing? I mean a world that is completely run by a religious way of thinking, that's pretty extraordinary if you think about it from a non-believer's point of view, is it not?
Perhaps my reply would have been better stated as, 'my reply was in respect to those who believe and accept God's existence' instead of, '...directed at those who believe'. My mistake, sorry for that. That said, I still wonder why anyone who doesn't believe would concern themselves about such. To put it as some atheists do, it would be much the same as asking why the Easter bunny isn't an Easter cat, or dog, or horse. Does it really matter or is it at all important (from a non-believers POV)?
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 14:42
Perhaps my reply would have been better stated as, 'my reply was in respect to those who believe and accept God's existence' instead of, '...directed at those who believe'. My mistake, sorry for that. That said, I still wonder why anyone who doesn't believe would concern themselves about such. To put it as some atheists do, it would be much the same as asking why the Easter bunny isn't an Easter cat, or dog, or horse. Does it really matter or is it at all important (from a non-believers POV)?
I can't speak for others but for me it's always important to try and think about things quite deeply, try to see it from another angle so to speak. In regards to religion I find that it would be quite easy for me to give in and follow a faith, put my trust in a higher power. I'm not that way inclined though, there are a lot of factors in religion as a whole that do not make sense to me, that I simply can't dismiss and carry on like they do not exist. I think it's quite sad that our culture as human beings is mostly based on religion and cannot move forward because religion prevents it. I just feel that if the world cared less about god and more about each other things could be better. (But that's just one man's opinion, so please treat it as such)
I'd rather not think about what existed before the beginning of existence itself. My mind always ends up in a frustrating loop where I can't find even the most absurd answer. I find it hard to accept that God merely existed, or that nothing suddenly became everything.
Actually atheists do it much more and more and they try to prove it with any single thing they do
Faithfuls don't have this as much as atheists do; when something complex gets in our face... ok, great lord... and we move on :)
What world are you living on?
God = vacuum
He's everywhere, deep in between the subatomic particles, all around the infiniteness of the universe, beyond the boundaries of the same universe. He exists today, always existed in the past, always will exist in the futere, forever and ever. Clear your mind of all thoughts, and He's there with you.
Hail the Vacuum.
Amen.
I have no idea. I also wonder if, if there is a god, is there more than one? And if not, why not?
Sounds very lonely otherwise.
:confused:
Well God is eternal so he's always existed, there's no timeline of his existence, only a timeline for everything else...
God = vacuum
He's everywhere, deep in between the subatomic particles, all around the infiniteness of the universe, beyond the boundaries of the same universe. He exists today, always existed in the past, always will exist in the futere, forever and ever. Clear your mind of all thoughts, and He's there with you.
Hail the Vacuum.
Amen.
Oh, okay :)
http://www.chemiclean.co.uk/images/Numatic/henryextra.jpg
http://forum.chaos-project.com/Smileys/default/bow.gif
^I see how that vacuum has a male name. :whi:
:p
Dark Lugia 2
11-10-11, 17:16
Actually atheists do it much more and more and they try to prove it with any single thing they do
You just described exactly how you act here. Seriously! :o
Faithfuls don't have this as much as atheists do; when something complex gets in our face... ok, great lord... and we move on :)
So you think a thirst for knowledge is a bad thing? Why? As a religious person don't you believe that our high intelligence is god-given, therefore we should make the most of it? If your god exists, do you think he'd be happy with you avoiding anything complex and limiting your knowledge for no good reason?
However atheists make things very complex for themselves and everyone else and it is sad their answers are always fruitless and some answers are given to them which they reject before even considering them ;)
You say Athiests answers are fruitless because you reject them before even considering them yourself, I've seen it from your posts on here many times. You usually respond with a quote from the Quran or you give up and say something like 'they will never learn...'.
knightgames
11-10-11, 18:32
eidos created god.
Noun 1. eidos - (anthropology) the distinctive expression of the cognitive or intellectual character of a culture or a social group
attribute - an abstraction belonging to or characteristic of an entity
anthropology - the social science that studies the origins and social relationships of human beings
Tyrannosaurus
11-10-11, 18:36
I never understood the particular chicken and egg question, because I think it's obvious: All birds lay eggs, and have laid eggs long before the modern chicken developed. In fact, most animals lay eggs, including several extinct species (such as all dinosaurs). These eggs are the ancestors of modern chickens, so obviously the egg came first.
^ Thank you! This is what I've been trying to tell people for a long time.
Anyway, regarding this thread's question:
This is a standard Philosophy 101 conundrum. It seems to demonstrate that the teleological argument is self-refuting. If anything that is complex and purposeful requires a creator/designer, then does God need one? If we can suppose that there is one exception to this rule (God), then why not others? Why does the universe require a creator?
A first cause, on the other hand, is another matter, and theologians have tried for ages to articulate a notion of God as a necessary first cause. In this regard, they have answered the question of "Who made God?" by asserting that the question is meaningless because it assumes a self-contradiction. There are also some interesting related arguments for God's existence have been built up over the centuries, like the cosmological argument and the argument from contingency. While I like both of these arguments myself, I'm not certain their premises always apply.
But more about this dilemma can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument
My view on this is that God is timeless, ageless, and does not 'exist' in the same manner we do. As biological beings, we move forward through time, we age, and as such we are able to mark the passage of time, but since God is not biological, he does not follow the same rules we do in that regard. I do not think we will ever know the answer for certain.
Avalon SARL
11-10-11, 18:50
You just described exactly how you act here. Seriously! :o
Not true at all.
I always avoid fighting/arguing here because many times it has proven to be fruitless ;)
So no
So you think a thirst for knowledge is a bad thing? Why? As a religious person don't you believe that our high intelligence is god-given, therefore we should make the most of it? If your god exists, do you think he'd be happy with you avoiding anything complex and limiting your knowledge for no good reason?
That is different.
THE SCIENTISTS (THE LEARNED/EDUCATED) FEAR HIM MOST (Quran 5.35: V.27-28)
Ofcourse not, as a muslim I am obliged to get educated ;):
The Apostle of God (pbuh) has said:
"WHEN A SON OF ADAM DIES, HIS WORK CEASES EXCEPT IN THREE AREAS; HIS ALMS WHICH CONTINUE, HIS SCIENCE WHICH BRINGS BENEFIT AND AN UPRIGHT SON WHO PRAYS FOR HIM".
"WHOEVER LEARNS KNOWLEDGE WHICH SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE GLORY OF GOD BUT UTlLISES IT TO GAIN FOR HIMSELF THINGS OF THE WORLD, HE WILL REACH NOTHING OF PARADISE ON RESURRECTION DAY"
"SCIENCE IS FEAR OF GOD AND PIETY"
"WHOEVER SEEKS SCIENCE TO OUTSHINE OTHER SCIENTISTS IN GLORY OR TO ENTER INTO CONTROVERSIES WITH THE FOOLISH OR TO ATTRACT THE ATTENTION OF PEOPLE TOWARDS HIM, HE WILL BE CAST INTO HELL"
WhatI meant in the previous post is that Atheists work very very hard to try disprove God's to comeup with their own laws and make many banned things legal
You say Athiests answers are fruitless because you reject them before even considering them yourself, I've seen it from your posts on here many times. You usually respond with a quote from the Quran or you give up and say something like 'they will never learn.
That is not true at all, unless they 100% contradict Quran which yes I will.
For your notice, whatever truth/fact Quran speaks of, it is always negotiable and none has been totally disproven or rejected, on the contrary it has lots of backup and it isamazing that any verse in the Quran encourages you to search for answers;)
Every single verse inthe quran says this. "Seek, work, do, think, try this, do that, get knowledge, go here, go there, ask this, ask about that...";)
While when someone speaks about GOD and many come and say speak from a source other than Quran, I am really SORRY, BUT NO ;)
Material world = Finite
Inmaterial world = Infinite
What things sacred books talk about? What do they teach?
Love to God. Love yourself and all things that God has created.
How many times have we heard that God is love?
So the answer seems easy.
Theories on the creation of the universe are mostly materials. Physics. Nothing says otherwise.
It seems that scientists are sometimes unable to believe in love. I wonder who will say their partners. lol (:tea:)
A man dies and his bones turn to dust. But his love for humanity can prevail over the millennia.
Don't be so prejudiced. A woman by your side, your kids in the yard, a dog running to you when you get home, having a beer with old times friends, see your football team winning on the finals, your books and favourite movies, find unexpected surprises in your day-to-day routine. The life of an atheist can be so full of love. God has nothing to do with love, not necessarily. I love love :hug:
Don't be so prejudiced. A woman by your side, your kids in the yard, a dog running to you when you get home, having a beer with old times friends, see your football team winning on the finals, your books and favourite movies, find unexpected surprises in your day-to-day routine. The life of an atheist can be so full of love. God has nothing to do with love, not necessarily. I love love :hug:
Hopefully one day you will understand it.
....
And I too.
So we see a new dawn together.
Avalon SARL
11-10-11, 20:29
^ true, but also, GOD is much more than this.
To love means to be fair and to be caring, to help poor, there are much other qualities besides Love that are associated to GOD
To say that someone who spent his whole life maltreating people and threatening them will be equal to someone who spent his whole life taking care of people and helping them is very ridiculous;
I'd rather not believe in GOD than believe that in the end both persons are the same in His eyes:confused:
Oh, but I'm not against God and religion, they just don't have a role in my life, not anymore. I know how important religion can be in one's life, I just say that from my personal experience religion is no longer an answer. I do take care of people and help them. I teach poor teenagers in an educational NGO in Brazil, they are awesome kids. I love my job, I do it with pleasure, I won't move away after a higher salary and become a frustrated middle aged man when i retire. I only happen to be agnostic, I don't expect to be rewarded in the afterlife. Enjoying the ride is good enough for me ;)
Well, i'm out again. Be back in a few hours. Later folks :hug:
Don't be so prejudiced. A woman by your side, your kids in the yard, a dog running to you when you get home, having a beer with old times friends, see your football team winning on the finals, your books and favourite movies, find unexpected surprises in your day-to-day routine. The life of an atheist can be so full of love. God has nothing to do with love, not necessarily. I love love :hug:
John 4:19 - 'We love because he first loved us'.
Orionvalentine
11-10-11, 21:34
Don't be so prejudiced. A woman by your side, your kids in the yard, a dog running to you when you get home, having a beer with old times friends, see your football team winning on the finals, your books and favourite movies, find unexpected surprises in your day-to-day routine. The life of an atheist can be so full of love. God has nothing to do with love, not necessarily. I love love :hug:
This is exactly how I feel, exactly how I live my life already. I am happy to experience life and religion plays no part in it.
John 4:19 - 'We love because he first loved us'.
I don't mean in a wrong way against the Bible but if God loved us then we wouldn't wars; and answer our prayers.
I remember reading a verse in the bible about Jesus saying that God creates both Good & Evil... Though it was sometime ago, and I don't remember the chapter & verse number or what book it was in :o
So people really need to stop with the questions over, why does God allow wars to happen and natural disasters...
<---- Clearly understands any creature or being more powerful then civilization can be characterized as a GOD. :(
I remember reading a verse in the bible about Jesus saying that God creates both Good & Evil...
So people really need to stop with the questions over, why does God allow wars to happen and natural disasters...
Let's just be honest with this..... God's a @!$%#!, otherwise he'd never allow this to happen. We were left with free will for a reason, perhaps as an experiment to watch how we evolve and decide if our race is worthy for some cause we couldn't understand.
Please don't take Avalon SARL as a representative of religious people in general.
I remember reading a verse in the bible about Jesus saying that God creates both Good & Evil... Though it was sometime ago, and I don't remember the chapter & verse number or what book it was in :o
So people really need to stop with the questions over, why does God allow wars to happen and natural disasters...
Here it is thanks to a quick Google search :)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:7&version=KJV
It wasn't Jesus though :o
Let's just be honest with this..... God's a @!$%#!, otherwise he'd never allow this to happen. We were left with free will for a reason, perhaps as an experiment to watch how we evolve and decide if our race is worthy for some cause we couldn't understand.
Suppose you could put it that way, we're doooooooooooooooomed until we're dead :(
I don't mean in a wrong way against the Bible but if God loved us then we wouldn't wars; and answer our prayers.
Wrong. God is perfect love. Man has chosen to make war against his fellow man, for many reasons, but mainly to gain power.
God answers plenty of prayers, I can testify to this myself.
Let's just be honest with this..... God's a @!$%#!, otherwise he'd never allow this to happen. We were left with free will for a reason, perhaps as an experiment to watch how we evolve and decide if our race is worthy for some cause we couldn't understand.
I don't believe for a single moment that God created evil as God is not evil. He gave us free will so that we may choose him ourselves.
War's happen because of man's wretchedness. Natural disasters are a form of God's wrath. He is love, he is merciful, he is patient... but he is the judge, jury and executioner.
Natural disasters are a form of God's wrath. He is love, he is merciful, he is patient... but he is the judge, jury and executioner.
But the list of people who we all agree are evil and the list of people who get hit by natural disasters are almost completely orthogonal. Yes, we don't understand God's plan, but surely it is not particularly wrath-worthy to live on the Pacific Ring of Fire or in Tornado Alley, compared to, say, New York City, most of Europe, Russia or similar.
I think if there is a God, and I'm believing in him, then I've already put enough faith into him that I don't need to question how he was made or came about.
I don't think God is....a killer....I guess perhaps he sends people here a certain way or them to overcome those wayez and such. So...I guess...
IDK. :/
But the list of people who we all agree are evil and the list of people who get hit by natural disasters are almost completely orthogonal. Yes, we don't understand God's plan, but surely it is not particularly wrath-worthy to live on the Pacific Ring of Fire or in Tornado Alley, compared to, say, New York City, most of Europe, Russia or similar.
Ask him when you see him. He knows better than I do :)
Ask him when you see him. He knows better than I do :)
I have to say, that's the best answer I ever heard to any question I asked about religion.
I have to say, that's the best answer I ever heard to any question I asked about religion.
I can't quite tell whether your being sincere or not :p
I can't quite tell whether your being sincere or not :p
To be honest, I'm not sure either. :D But I can't prove it wrong in any way, and it's 100% compatible with anything I know about religion.
Interesting question. You know, it's the main argument of anti-atheists that everything has to be created.
Professor: All matter was created by the big bang.
Students: But who made/created the big bang?
Professor: No one. It just happened.
Student: You're meaning to tell me if i just sit here some planets are gonna appear on the desk without me doing anything?
Professor: ...out.
So this is a huge whole in that theory. :whi:
Interesting question. You know, it's the main argument of anti-atheists that everything has to be created.
Professor: All matter was created by the big bang.
Students: But who made/created the big bang?
Professor: No one. It just happened.
Student: You're meaning to tell me if i just sit here some planets are gonna appear on the desk without me doing anything?
Professor: ...out.
So this is a huge whole in that theory. :whi:
Yes, the "anti-atheists" and creationists and so on like to use that, but of course they forget that professors don't actually say that, instead preferring to say "We don't know why the big bang happened and since the cause must necessarily have been outside the universe and outside of time, we will probably never know". Just another example how those people are discrediting themselves. Good thing we don't listen to them.
Dark Lugia 2
11-10-11, 23:44
Interesting question. You know, it's the main argument of anti-atheists that everything has to be created.
Professor: All matter was created by the big bang.
Students: But who made/created the big bang?
Professor: No one. It just happened.
Student: You're meaning to tell me if i just sit here some planets are gonna appear on the desk without me doing anything?
Professor: ...out.
So this is a huge whole in that theory. :whi:
That reminds me of how a lot of religious people don't understand evolution and say things like 'you mean to tell me that we came from monkeys?'. You just know that they sat through the class not listening at all as soon as they saw the title "Evolution". And then they feel like they are in a position to say that it doesnt make sense. :p
Anyone heard about the guy Ian McCormack? :)
http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/ians-testimony/video/
Now that is interesting :cool:
Ian's Testimony: Ian was night diving off the island of Mauritius when he was stung multiple times by Box Jellyfish, which are among the most venomous creatures in the world. Ian is not 100% sure which species of Box Jelllyfish that stung him as it has been very hard to find info from Mauritius on them. Ian suffered as a child from allergies and had to take antihistamines on a regular basis as even a mosquito bite would cause him to swell up, so his reaction to these jellyfish stings was very bad. His testimony relates how he clung to life while getting to hospital, was declared clinically dead soon afterwards, and how during this time he had an encounter with God, which radically changed the direction of his life.
the answer to the question is also heavily dependent on what your view of God is in the first place. So lets set up some "ifs"...
1. IF God posesses ALL power...
2. IF God posesses ALL knowledge...
3. IF God is everywhere at once...
4. IF God created the entire universe and everything that is in it (time, space, matter, energy,...and us)...
then to me, that would indicate that there are many aspects about God that would be so far beyond our comprehension, including the ability to live OUTSIDE of time. I have a mental picture of this that seems to be useful, even if totally inadequete...
Picture the entire universe as a fishbowl that is made out of one-way glass...can see in, but not out. The inhabitants of the fishbowl only know what is inside of their little world. They have no concept of what is outside of it, because it is the only world that they have any experience with. They are also limited in their ablility to understand anything outside of the bowl because of the way their minds are designed.
On the other side of the glass is God...having the ability to live outside of the laws that govern the inside of the bowl, because He created things that way. He can also see the entirety of everything within the bowl, including time, because he put it in there as well. The nice thing is He can come inside of the bowl anytime He chooses to. He made it, he can certainly visit it.
Because of our experiences within the confines of linear time, it is nearly impossible to conceptualize any other existence that does not rely on it. We ask "Who created God" or "did God have a beginning" only because we have no experience with the idea of limitless existence OUTSIDE of linear time.
Time isn't linear it's cyclical like a circle.
It has no beginning and no end. So everything is infinite.
God I'd call this giant infinite cycle of everything. If there is a God it's waayyyy beyond anything we could comprehend. Much more than just a "creator."
sheepman23
12-10-11, 02:06
Good question.
I really love to think about this at times, too. Imagine if there was... nothing. I mean, the entire space just ceased to exist. Reality was no longer a thing. Just a huge, black gaping hole... oh wait, that doesn't even exist, because reality wouldn't exist.
Therefore; where did God come from? I can't answer that question myself... like so many others have pointed out, it's beyond human understanding.
Time isn't linear it's cyclical like a circle.
It has no beginning and no end. So everything is infinite.
God I'd call this giant infinite cycle of everything. If there is a God it's waayyyy beyond anything we could comprehend. Much more than just a "creator."
If it is so uncomprehendable, how do we know it exists in the first place? ;) How could we manifest this thing that is so uncomprehendable into one entity and call it 'god'?
If it is so uncomprehendable, how do we know it exists in the first place? ;) How could we manifest this thing that is so uncomprehendable into one entity and call it 'god'?
We have a hunch based on observations just like theories. I just don't think we could ever describe God or the creator in words.
We have a hunch based on observations just like theories. I just don't think we could ever describe God or the creator in words.
Such as?
This is a very silly question and renders any discussion related to it pointless. It's annoying.
Nothing "created" God. If something had to create God, then God wouldn't be God. It contradicts the definition.
Science is trying to chase something that doesn't exist. That something is called "beginning". How can there be a beginning? Everything is eternal.
Even if scientists discovered what occurred before the Big Bang, obviously there's still going to be something before that... and before that, and before that.
Uzi master
12-10-11, 05:07
This is a very silly question and renders any discussion related to it pointless. It's annoying.
Nothing "created" God. If something had to create God, then God wouldn't be God. It contradicts the definition.
Science is trying to chase something that doesn't exist. That something is called "beginning". How can there be a beginning? Everything is eternal.
Even if scientists discovered what occurred before the Big Bang, obviously there's still going to be something before that... and before that, and before that.
And you know this because?
I mean, you seem really sure of yourself.
This is a very silly question and renders any discussion related to it pointless. It's annoying.
Nothing "created" God. If something had to create God, then God wouldn't be God. It contradicts the definition.
Science is trying to chase something that doesn't exist. That something is called "beginning". How can there be a beginning? Everything is eternal.
Even if scientists discovered what occurred before the Big Bang, obviously there's still going to be something before that... and before that, and before that.
I have to agree with you there. Because the quest for the Higgs Boson is now apparently a dud. Scientists are starting to believe it doesn't really exist since they haven't been able to find it.
Scientists are starting to believe it doesn't really exist since they haven't been able to find it.
One doesn't necessarily result from another :whi:
Personally I do not believe in god, but we just can't know.
Theory 1: God made us- "God made the world, it was too empty, so he made the grass and the trees, still it was something missing, he made the rivers and the seas some we can make difference, then he made the animals, and finally the human, he said: "The man will rule with every living creature on Earth"."
Theory 2: The "Big Bang''- how did the universe look alike before it?
The newest theory 3: We are just one small base for the aliens.
WTF?? everything is just mystery, we can just suppose and we'll NEVER KNOW WHO MADE AS, WHO MADE THE THING THAT MADE US, WHO MADE THE THING WHO MADE THE THING THAT MADE US,etc.
Not to mention "God" being she or it [some entity which doesn't identify itself by some gender, not what you all thought :p] equally possible ;)
it's he that's what we got in the bible :/
Bible is written by human beings = subjective. Considering the period it is sexist and patriarchal as well.
Time isn't linear it's cyclical like a circle.
Were you transferred from the ancient Egypt right into our days? :eek:
:D
I want to quote Carl Sagan
Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws
You'll surely be missed and remebered, Carl. Here's another his quote:
The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.
edit: I watched a few of his films that's why I remembered when he said that.
Avalon SARL
12-10-11, 10:36
Please don't take Avalon SARL as a representative of religious people in general.
what?
Why?
I did not say anything wrong?
Yes GOD gave man free will and put him under a test to prove whether he is worthy of having a good eternal afterlife or not.
Itis GOD who created everything, both good and bad and gave us the choice
What wrong did I say? :confused:
Adding to that, it is not necessary to say that being religious will make you good,or other fasle thoughts.
It all depends how you are raised and how well you understand religious/social beliefs and the laws and not take any of them for your own advantage ;)
so if an atheist does good and loves kindness etc... there is no problem.
human beings on Earth are all the same and equal in everything ;)
they are as equal as the teeth of a comb :)
whatever GOD decides in the afterlife,it is HIS decision alone...
He Isn't named MOST MERCIFUL for no reason ;)
Zelda master
12-10-11, 10:55
human beings on Earth are all the same and equal in everything ;)
Not trying to go offtopic here, as saying who created god is out of anyone's reach. But this quote made me giggle...
You are saying that everyone is equal in everything, but in another topic you said, that you thanked Allah for the fact that he made you better then most of his creations...
As I said, I don't want to go offtopic here, but you sir are a hypocrite.
Avalon SARL
12-10-11, 11:21
Not trying to go offtopic here, as saying who created god is out of anyone's reach. But this quote made me giggle...
You are saying that everyone is equal in everything, but in another topic you said, that you thanked Allah for the fact that he made you better then most of his creations...
As I said, I don't want to go offtopic here, but you sir are a hypocrite.
Just like this, I wouldn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, or call them names, like what you just did just because of something you didnt understand or perhaps I did not explain well.
There is always a better way to ask for explanation ;)
sometimes we just don't write, maybe forget to write every thing we think of or what we really mean.
He made me better, yes,like caring for others for example, helping someone,feeling with them, while many others don't give a *********** about it...
I care for nature and the ecology, yeah Allah made me better in this than million others.
Come to my country to see how the ecology and forests are dying and it is like over than 60% of the people don't care
We now have lost over than 65%of our forests and no one cares :yik:
However, I excuse you calling me hypocrite maybe it was my bad notexplaining things very well
However,that aboiut people being equal like theteeth of acomb, it is a hadeeth by the greatest of all Prophets pbu-him and them all, and it means that on Earth human beings must be treated equally in everything;
God giving you more things than others is not what this is meant, let's say money for example.
It is speakingabout the rights and what you can do and how much to get paid and many other things included.
It refers as well that any one who does this certain sin (stealing for example) should be punished despite who he is, whether he is a poor old man or the president of the states ;)
it will take lots of time discussing this, but hope it makes sense now.
God favors me or you spiritually, that is none of anyone's concern and whatever GOD decides to do in the afterlife it is also none of anyone's concern
Orionvalentine
12-10-11, 11:45
Just for the record, because it's quite irritating to see all the time. Religion is not the be all and end all and shouldn't be treated as such. It is a personal belief and should not be thrust upon others as fact, just remember that when you post Avalon SARL. Can you not see another opinion other than your own?
Anyone heard about the guy Ian McCormack? :)
http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/ians-testimony/video/
Now that is interesting :cool:
Near death experiences like that have been reported by many people and they are certainly not superficial. Scientists have been able to recreate them (and/or similar experiences) by manipulating the electric currents in the brain.
Near death experiences like that have been reported by many people and they are certainly not superficial. Scientists have been able to recreate them (and/or similar experiences) by manipulating the electric currents in the brain.
I know, well not the bit about scientists managing to recreate them but from what I've read, a lot of people have said that they've seen a white light.
Ian's case seems to be the most elaborative NDE I've ever heard.
Avalon SARL
12-10-11, 13:53
Just for the record, because it's quite irritating to see all the time. Religion is not the be all and end all and shouldn't be treated as such. It is a personal belief and should not be thrust upon others as fact, just remember that when you post Avalon SARL. Can you not see another opinion other than your own?
Actually it is very wrong to come say that what I anm writing is my opinion...
Religion has its own rules, laws, explanations and I am just pointing them out.
I didn't invent them in the first place and I am 100% sure what I wrote offends no one, neither have I attacked anyone or cursed anyone orsaid anything immoral
I don't know whatever you found vicious in whatever I wrote:confused:
Neither did I say what I am writing is the only point of view and you should accept...
It is just a certain point of view I wrote down and it hurts no one reading;)
unlike you, I don't know how you find things offending when they are not even about you or anyone else in the first place
If you really care to explain very well what is it that I expressed to be as a fact or whatever you are talking about?
what?
Why?
I did not say anything wrong?
Yes GOD gave man free will and put him under a test to prove whether he is worthy of having a good eternal afterlife or not.
Itis GOD who created everything, both good and bad and gave us the choice
What wrong did I say? :confused:
Adding to that, it is not necessary to say that being religious will make you good,or other fasle thoughts.
It all depends how you are raised and how well you understand religious/social beliefs and the laws and not take any of them for your own advantage ;)
so if an atheist does good and loves kindness etc... there is no problem.
human beings on Earth are all the same and equal in everything ;)
they are as equal as the teeth of a comb :)
whatever GOD decides in the afterlife,it is HIS decision alone...
He Isn't named MOST MERCIFUL for no reason ;)Well you're pretty extreme and seem incapable of accepting that other people have different beliefs (that applies to certain atheists on here as well).
Avalon SARL
12-10-11, 14:05
Well you're pretty extreme and seem incapable of accepting that other people have different beliefs (that applies to certain atheists on here as well).
Where on Earth did I write that
I am really mad now because THIS is TOTAL LYING
If you dare point them out
Where did I evenbash anyone or tried to disprove anything or saidthis is right and that is wrong :confused:
IF Accepting someone else's belief means never expressing mine= ODD THINKING
Orionvalentine
12-10-11, 14:13
Avalon SARL, you seem incapable of an intelligent debate when it comes to religion. Most of the things that I have written for you to read in response to your own questions are just countered with a religious quote. That isn't thinking on your own, I'd like to see your own opinions and not religious doctrine.
Avalon SARL
12-10-11, 14:33
^ now you contradict yourself, because up you said I am enitiled to my opinion
:confused::confused:
anyway, As the title says: LET US SAY THERE IS A GOD
To me, GOD can not be GOD if He would have to be like us humans in the first place.
Neither that He is as others portray Him, like a vicious beast with a pool of lava created human beings just for the fun of it
I still wonder where is it being extreme in stating what the Religious doctrine itself says about this, anyway...
Well the whole debate differs because, as much as there is common between christianity and Islam or other beliefs, still within Islam many things are different because in Islam belief is not treated as being a personal opinion,but more as deducing GOD's existence from daily living, finding Him with you, supporting you, doing wonders for you, which I mean previously that GOD has made me better than many of His people (yes) because it depends how much good deeds bring you good work and good forune andthrough this you can feel that GOD is helping you; it is a law that you make applicable
I never said I get proud or that I exalt myslf over anybody else, on the contrary
Islam, unlike what you think, entices you to think, that in many places GOD tells you that if you Do not belive in Him,then Go and seek truth...
the whole book GOD keeps invitingyou to believe in Him, advising you with words like, " SEEK, SEARCH, ASK, LOOK, INVETSIGATE, WORK, ASK, DIVE, WONDER, QUESTION..."
Anyway, I'm still going off topic
However, you and I haven;'t even debated over anything so you can tell me that I replied you with whatever I wrote :)
There was barely anything to debate over, so?
Avalon SARL, you seem incapable of an intelligent debate when it comes to religion. Most of the things that I have written for you to read in response to your own questions are just countered with a religious quote. That isn't thinking on your own, I'd like to see your own opinions and not religious doctrine.
This makes no sense at all
Some people here need to grow a thicker skin. Avalon SARL is obviously explaining about his religion.
Were you transferred from the ancient Egypt right into our days? :eek:
:D
I actually strongly believe I had previous incarnations in ancient Egypt. Since I was young I always had an obsession with that culture.
But anyways if you believe in reincarnation then the answer to your question is yes. And I'm sure whatever happened during the time of ancient Egypt will happen again as history repeats. The forms are all that change.
Anyone heard about the guy Ian McCormack? :)
http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/ians-testimony/video/
Now that is interesting :cool:Thanks for the link, I've downloaded this to play on my Gogear later. I love this kind of thing. :)
Edit: Hmmm, gets a bit "religious" towards to the end, but the story was an intriguing one. I don't believe he saw Jesus / God though.
Right. My opinion on the matter is that the keeping of time is a material thing, so if God created the material universe, why should he be bound to the rules therein? Ergo, no beginning since 'beginning' has a connotation of a time-scale.
And you know this because?
I mean, you seem really sure of yourself.
Because obviously, you can't get something out of nothing. Think about it.
Besides, it's a proven fact that energy is not created or destroyed.
Our universe, for all we know, COULD have a beginning... But not the multiverse of universes. Or perhaps it could go even further - ultraverse of multiverses. My point is - existence is infinite. There is no "nothingness".
Uzi master
12-10-11, 23:48
Because obviously, you can't get something out of nothing. Think about it.
Besides, it's a proven fact that energy is not created or destroyed.
Our universe, for all we know, COULD have a beginning... But not the multiverse of universes. Or perhaps it could go even further - ultraverse of multiverses. My point is - existence is infinite. There is no "nothingness".
Stephen Hawking disagrees.
A show I saw had him explaining a theory, the universe is made of matter, and anti-matter. supposedly, if you added it all together it would equal nothing. Kinda like having a flat dirt field, you want a hill so you dig a hole to make that hill. you now have a positive elevation of dirt, and an equal negative elevation that together go to zero. I can't really explain it clearly myself, you'd have to see it yourself, but the gist of it is we don't need a creator because there is nothing to have created, all the matter and anti-matter adds up to nothing.
It is more like a magnet. You have the positive pole (matter) and the negative pole (anti-matter). Neither pole is actually neutralized, just negated.
Orionvalentine
13-10-11, 11:18
Stephen Hawking disagrees.
A show I saw had him explaining a theory, the universe is made of matter, and anti-matter. supposedly, if you added it all together it would equal nothing. Kinda like having a flat dirt field, you want a hill so you dig a hole to make that hill. you now have a positive elevation of dirt, and an equal negative elevation that together go to zero. I can't really explain it clearly myself, you'd have to see it yourself, but the gist of it is we don't need a creator because there is nothing to have created, all the matter and anti-matter adds up to nothing.
That's a pretty good theory, I'd never though of it like that before. Cheers for sharing that Uzi :hug:
One thing I really enjoy is thinking about the 'what ifs' and getting my teeth into a good theory. I spend a lot of my life thinking about the 'what ifs' :o
I've been pondering the existence of God for some time and I suspect that God is the very essence of truth's existence. A good name for God would be "Truth Is". It's easy to show why truth exists. Consider the following logic:
Lets assume "truth doesn't exist". This would mean nothing could be true. This means that "truth doesn't exist" isn't true - which contradicts our assumption. Therefore the assumption is impossible which means that truth exists. If God is the essence of the existence of truth, then he exists because it is impossible for him not to.
Another interesting conclusion is that without truth, mathematics would not function, even 1+1=2 couldn't be true. Truth is required for math to work, the laws of physics require math - the universe formed using the laws of physics. If God is the essence of truth's existence, then Steven Hawking got it wrong when he said that the universe doesn't require God.
Stephen Hawking disagrees.
A show I saw had him explaining a theory, the universe is made of matter, and anti-matter. supposedly, if you added it all together it would equal nothing. Kinda like having a flat dirt field, you want a hill so you dig a hole to make that hill. you now have a positive elevation of dirt, and an equal negative elevation that together go to zero. I can't really explain it clearly myself, you'd have to see it yourself, but the gist of it is we don't need a creator because there is nothing to have created, all the matter and anti-matter adds up to nothing.
I remember Hawking saying that the total amount of Universe energy equals to zero. That was supersymmetry theory if my memory serves me...
Lara Croft!
14-10-11, 11:27
Just because we can't answer if the chicken created the egg or the egg created the chicken, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
If there is a God, then who created God
God.d:
Orionvalentine
14-10-11, 12:42
God.d:
Are there any examples of insects or micro bacteria that can in a sense 'create' themselves without need of incubation or 'parents'?
I'm just curious really.
The writers of the bible seemed less interested in proving whether God exist's but much more interested in what God is like. Exactly how I feel...
I've been pondering the existence of God for some time and I suspect that God is the very essence of truth's existence. A good name for God would be "Truth Is". It's easy to show why truth exists. Consider the following logic:
Lets assume "truth doesn't exist". This would mean nothing could be true. This means that "truth doesn't exist" isn't true - which contradicts our assumption. Therefore the assumption is impossible which means that truth exists. If God is the essence of the existence of truth, then he exists because it is impossible for him not to.
Another interesting conclusion is that without truth, mathematics would not function, even 1+1=2 couldn't be true. Truth is required for math to work, the laws of physics require math - the universe formed using the laws of physics. If God is the essence of truth's existence, then Steven Hawking got it wrong when he said that the universe doesn't require God.
That's circular logic if I ever saw it. Besides the fact that the truth is relative and based on subjective perceptions, things either are or are not existing in actuality. Truth has everything to do with it, just not for the reasons you suggest. If you ask a believer if god exists, they will say yes. If you ask an athiest if god exists, they will say no. Both are correct according to the truth as they see it.
I've been pondering the existence of God for some time and I suspect that God is the very essence of truth's existence. A good name for God would be "Truth Is". It's easy to show why truth exists. Consider the following logic:
Lets assume "truth doesn't exist". This would mean nothing could be true. This means that "truth doesn't exist" isn't true - which contradicts our assumption. Therefore the assumption is impossible which means that truth exists. If God is the essence of the existence of truth, then he exists because it is impossible for him not to.
Another interesting conclusion is that without truth, mathematics would not function, even 1+1=2 couldn't be true. Truth is required for math to work, the laws of physics require math - the universe formed using the laws of physics. If God is the essence of truth's existence, then Steven Hawking got it wrong when he said that the universe doesn't require God.
This approach does not work, because you don't explain how God is the essence of truth.
If you take mathematical logic (IMHO the only kind of logic worth looking at when discussing properties of logic itself, because anything else is not well defined enough) and there in particular first-order logic, which is the basis for all other forms, then the idea of "truth" is rather arbitrary. In there, any statement is just a set of symbols. The meaning (semantics) of those symbols are defined by an interpretation. Whether something is true or not is then simply calculated from the formula based on a very simple algorithm.
It goes a bit beyond that, actually (you can describe the interpretation as another first-order logic formula, for example), but the basic thing is this: Truth is just a property derived from a statement and a set of definitions for the various parts of that statement. There is nothing particularly holy or otherwise noteworthy about truth.
So yes, truth does exist, but so does the number two (or, in fact, 42). It's just a result of the axioms and definitions we use. There is no reason to say that Truth is God or God is Truth anymore than there is a reason to say God is the number 2 or God is NP-completeness.
Uzi master
14-10-11, 22:10
I remember Hawking saying that the total amount of Universe energy equals to zero. That was supersymmetry theory if my memory serves me...
Matter and energy are essentially the same thing, according to http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/5/2/c/52c7687643df1c12231b39e324850586.png
That's circular logic if I ever saw it. Besides the fact that the truth is relative and based on subjective perceptions, things either are or are not existing in actuality. Truth has everything to do with it, just not for the reasons you suggest. If you ask a believer if god exists, they will say yes. If you ask an athiest if god exists, they will say no. Both are correct according to the truth as they see it.
Which is why Buddhism doesn't concern itself with the creator. If there was a creator at this point it's not that important or relevant to our lives. Our focus should now be on us and our present reality.
This approach does not work, because you don't explain how God is the essence of truth.
I first considered how the Bible described God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit:
the word of God is usually called the word of truth.
Jesus said he was the truth.
the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth as well as the Spirit of God.
This gave me the idea to begin with.
I then looked at the properties of God:
Eternal and omnipresent - truth's existence doesn't depend on the physical world, time or space - it would be eternal and omnipresent.
self existent, not created - truth exists on its on merit
infinite - truth can be found on any number (1, sqrt2, pi, googolplex, gongulus, etc.), mathematical shape (triangle, cube, tesseract, quadrillion dimensional fractal, etc.), function, set, etc.
According to the Bible, God can't lie - he only tells truth. - this leads to an interesting thing to consider: God submits to the truth, so his authority is equal to or less than truth's. But God is defined as the highest authority in all things, so his authority is equal to or greater than truth's. These two statements will mean that God's authority is equal to truth's. The Bible says there's only one God, not two - so they must be one.
God is considered as the ultimate foundation of reality - the foundation of mathematics is logic, and it is founded on truth and definitions.
I've thought of other properties as well.
So yes, truth does exist, but so does the number two (or, in fact, 42). It's just a result of the axioms and definitions we use. There is no reason to say that Truth is God or God is Truth anymore than there is a reason to say God is the number 2 or God is NP-completeness.
I suspect that the number 2, the triangle, the tesseract, etc are eternal mathematical truths that are merely specks off of God, he is the truth that flows through these things to give them existence and an essence. The Bible says all things exist and have their being through God.
@Draco: Believing in something doesn't make it true - but it would be true that the person believes in it if he does. For example some people might believe that Alpha Centari system has planets, others may believe that it doesn't. Unless their definition of planet is different, both of them couldn't be right. The actual truth of the situation would determine which belief is right.
Tyrannosaurus
15-10-11, 05:01
That's circular logic if I ever saw it. Besides the fact that the truth is relative and based on subjective perceptions, things either are or are not existing in actuality. Truth has everything to do with it, just not for the reasons you suggest. If you ask a believer if god exists, they will say yes. If you ask an athiest if god exists, they will say no. Both are correct according to the truth as they see it.
I think we can be fair in saying that neither one is a liar, and both have justifiable reasons for believing as they do, but one is objectively closer to the truth than the other. Aristotle defined truth in this famous syllogism consisting of 39 words, with 1 syllable each:
“To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true”.
Matter and energy are essentially the same thing
In supersymmetry yes. Matter and energy are both made up of particles/wave packets. They even suggest that all amount of matter = amount of energy.
Electrons act like waves. No they don't exactly. They act like particles. No they don't exactly. Feynman said this.
If look at this that way then everything just emits waves (visible and invisible).
Matter and energy are essentially the same thing, according to http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/5/2/c/52c7687643df1c12231b39e324850586.png
Didn't they say recently that Einstein could of been wrong with the whole http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/5/2/c/52c7687643df1c12231b39e324850586.png thing. Seeing that scientists have found something going faster then the speed of light.
Didn't they say recently that Einstein could of been wrong with the whole http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/5/2/c/52c7687643df1c12231b39e324850586.png thing. Seeing that scientists have found something going faster then the speed of light.
Way too early to tell; scientists are still trying to figure out whether those measurements were correct. But even if they are, it would be likely that E=mc² remains.
Way too early to tell; scientists are still trying to figure out whether those measurements were correct. But even if they are, it would be likely that E=mc² remains.
Yeah for a close result most likely.:D
Didn't they say recently that Einstein could of been wrong
What it got to do with Einstein. He didn't say that it's not possible to exceed the speed of light, he even talked about spooky effect which is 10 000 faster than light.
What it got to do with Einstein. He didn't say that it's not possible to exceed the speed of light, he even talked about spooky effect which is 10 000 faster than light.
I only said that because he came up with that theory.
It seems that Einstein also said:
"Man finds God behind every door that science is able to open."
It seems that Einstein also said:
"Man finds God behind every door that science is able to open."
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
That behind every discovery that science discovers, appears even greater enigma.
As these neutrinos traveling faster than light.
That behind every discovery that science discovers, appears even greater enigma.
That's called epistemology (http://relationary.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/epistemology-how-we-know-what-we-know/)
http://relationary.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/epistemology.jpg
Well then, perhaps God is the infinite which will ever be and we will never see.
The point in life is to move closer to God, but we can never get him.
^ On the other hand, if the God is infinite, we are already as close to he/she/it as is ever possible ;)
That's true, if we're moving at the same pace as infinite. If infinite has a pace.
Ward Dragon
16-10-11, 02:26
I think the question is impossible to answer (at least with humanity's current level of knowledge). Any solution that could adequately explain the existence of God could also be applied to the universe itself (like it doesn't need a creator, has existed forever, is cyclical, etc.). This is one of those questions that will probably never be answered and will end up coming down to faith rather than empirical evidence.
We are God.
Universal collective consciousness. All part of the same thing; all as one.
God is the essence of being. The manifestation of life into being to the point of consciousness.
Without God, there is no consciousness. There is no being. Everything in the universe becomes useless, because there is no observer to observe it.
We are God.
Universal collective consciousness. All part of the same thing; all as one.
God is the essence of being. The manifestation of life into being to the point of consciousness.
Without God, there is no consciousness. There is no being. Everything in the universe becomes useless, because there is no observer to observe it.
That sounds like it came straight from the Borg Queen lol
That sounds like it came straight from the Borg Queen lol
:vlol: I thought the exact same thing :vlol:
Avalon SARL
16-10-11, 10:07
I think the question is impossible to answer (at least with humanity's current level of knowledge). Any solution that could adequately explain the existence of God could also be applied to the universe itself (like it doesn't need a creator, has existed forever, is cyclical, etc.). This is one of those questions that will probably never be answered and will end up coming down to faith rather than empirical evidence.
The best answer throughout the whole pages;
the best answer to be given :tmb:
RunrigNutter
17-10-11, 23:17
I'm a christian, and thing is we may never know. Who created wind, air, love? You can't see these things. Suppose with love; you can in a sense, but we don;t know if we find love, or love finds us.
^ How can love be created anyway? :confused: It's a complex thing that can be felt, a state of mind or soul. No science can describe what love is (if there's a real love).
Well then, perhaps God is the infinite which will ever be and we will never see.
The point in life is to move closer to God, but we can never get him.
^ On the other hand, if the God is infinite, we are already as close to he/she/it as is ever possible ;)
That's true, if we're moving at the same pace as infinite. If infinite has a pace.
We can speculate and make a first conclusion about this.
We could even say that infinite is only five days ahead us.
We might even hit.
RunrigNutter
18-10-11, 20:32
Drone exactly.
Science didn't exist many thousand of years ago; do we know how air is formed or air we breath. You can't see wind; but we can fell effects of it, but we don;t know how it was formed. I believe in a god, but i'm not bashing anyone; you can have different view as long you accept mine. I believe god created wind; but if he didn't who did?
Uzi master
18-10-11, 22:19
Drone exactly.
Science didn't exist many thousand of years ago; do we know how air is formed or air we breath. You can't see wind; but we can fell effects of it, but we don;t know how it was formed. I believe in a god, but i'm not bashing anyone; you can have different view as long you accept mine. I believe god created wind; but if he didn't who did?
Try studying weather, winds can be explained scientifically.
Quick Google search: http://www.atmos.illinois.edu/earths_atmosphere/wind_formation.html
Wind is hardly a mystery to us now.
Wind is hardly a mystery to us now.
lol, try telling that to our local meteorologist...they way his forecasts go sometimes, i think wind is still a mystery
Avalon SARL
19-10-11, 16:18
Ofcourse wind is a mystery; even the most advanced technology used, wind can always trick scientists; you never know when it shifts its course and change direction
From Religious Point of View, Wind moves on according to directions given to it by GOD :)
Drone exactly.
Science didn't exist many thousand of years ago; do we know how air is formed or air we breath. You can't see wind; but we can fell effects of it, but we don;t know how it was formed. I believe in a god, but i'm not bashing anyone; you can have different view as long you accept mine. I believe god created wind; but if he didn't who did?
You know what? It's true. The turbulent movement of the air and fluids and also whirls are barely studied. That process is complex, much more complex than previously expected. It only shows how less we know.
As my father always says: Wind is air that's in a hurry.
Weather patterns, of which wind is a major part, are incredibly complex systems. Of course we don't understand it in detail. But we do understand the basics well enough to give accurate predictions for the next day most of the time, with the accuracy dropping to 50% for the three-day forecast (all of this on average). Perfect? No. But it shows that the weather is not exactly a complete mystery either.
That sounds like it came straight from the Borg Queen lol
hehe... RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! :)
Hmm some interesting replys to this topic. Makes me wonder if humans were created to show that God existed. Would God exist if no one worshipped him/her/it? Do the Greek Gods still exist even tho we do not worship them anymore? How would we know? But that's another topic....
Well if God is a spirit then how do you create a spirit? How do you create energy? Energy is always constant it just changes form. Sounds like a circle to me. Also makes me think there are different dimensions we don't know about yet. May this collider will show us.
Avalon SARL
20-10-11, 04:58
^ The reason for having One GOD is much more reasonable than having multiple gods is because during judgement it is not 100% exact that all gods will be having the same judgements upon you; also, how can they be gods if they do not share or own certain powers; an ulimate god, to be a GOD, has to have outstanding qualities and characteristics and must be capable of doing whatever you can imagine or may never ever dare to think of or even recognize
It is very logical to say GOD created everything than to spend Fruitless Years and Generations seeking answers that has not gven any much interesting yield
The more humanbeings dicover things, the more complex the system becomes
Who says when you find answers to evolution or any other still mysterious thing you will find evidence for excluding GOD from life;
The way I see it, the more you find answers the more complex things will become for everybody and there will never ever be any escaping the fact for people, but GOD will be a possibility in anything to be discovered
How do you explain the relatively recent appearance of god? It is more than well documented that a great many gods and belief systems predate any idea of a singular penultimate ghost god.
God= Father
No matter the scale.
I'm sorry. I will try to expand more my mind. Often I think everybody can read my thoughts.
I could talk on number "1" and other things, but is more like a feeling as "Ser" (To Be) or "Estar" (To be).
I can't not translate in a bettrer way the feeling.
^ The reason for having One GOD is much more reasonable than having multiple godsIs it? If I were a god and was on my own the very first thing I'd do with my ultimate powers is create other gods so that I would have other beings to talk to. I would make them my equals too (with maybe just a little bit more power in my favour, just in case. lol :D), because relationships with equals are the most satisfying.
Anything else is having a pet. Which is nice, but not the same.
Unless of course, god isn't emotional in that sense, and so doesn't have those needs. In which case that would rather make it a supernatural force of benign, but cold and indifferent, power. Not the kind of god that would give any care to the fate of mankind.
(Side thought: Hmmm. The ponderings you can have in this debate and political discussion thread. :D)
God= Father
No matter the scale
Then Nietzsche is an orphan. You mean father as a creator or just father? Expanding space-time and Big Bang theories suggest that it all could be a spontanous process. Like Hawking says in M-theory there can be some other origin of everything, cosmos itself. But he never denied God's existence. I feel the same way. Was that high frequency oscillations of space-time that affected my destinty, gave me choice or took it all away, made me live or die, well I don't know. Didn't get my head around this yet.
The Great Chi
20-10-11, 17:51
If there is a God, then who created God
This question is really beyond us in Earthy form, because it brings in the question of who created the material universe. We do not know how matter was created (big bang or god), we do not know the shape of the universe, we do not know the size of the universe, we do not know what is outside the universe. we do not know if there are more dimensions or parallel universes, we do not know if the universe has multi-layered levels of existence within it. A lower plane to a higher one, and a higher one beyond that, which by faith we would perceive as going on beyond death.
Why do we not know, because in material form we are limited to our five senses and even using machines to check spectrums and frequences beyond our senses, only gives us a little more information.
A good example of why we cannot answer these questions is the mythical FLAT world.
People on a flat world where there is no height are two dimesional.
If you put a 3D object through a 2D world, you would see a cross section of the 3D object at any one moment, but could not visulise easily what the 3D object was shaped like. In fact they would not know what a 3d object is.
Same goes for us in a 3D world where a 4D object is sent through our plane of existence. ect, ect going up the dimensions. Can we percive a 4D object going through us, or a 5D, or 6D...... No !
Only once we are out of our normal plane of existence, will we be able to see answers to questions we did not even think of, and maybe including an answer to the question above.
Until then I think we better accept 'the hitch-hickers guide to the galaxys' answer to everything, and that is .......42 :D
Avalon SARL
20-10-11, 18:08
Is it? If I were a god and was on my own the very first thing I'd do with my ultimate powers is create other gods so that I would have other beings to talk to. I would make them my equals too (with maybe just a little bit more power in my favour, just in case. lol :D), because relationships with equals are the most satisfying.
Anything else is having a pet. Which is nice, but not the same.
Unless of course, god isn't emotional in that sense, and so doesn't have those needs. In which case that would rather make it a supernatural force of benign, but cold and indifferent, power. Not the kind of god that would give any care to the fate of mankind.
(Side thought: Hmmm. The ponderings you can have in this debate and political discussion thread. :D)
You made me:p
But GOD is not like us; we can;t speak of GOD from our perspective or depict Him as someone with the same feelings and desires as ours
GOD is above us and it is complicated thinking of GOD's self; Thatis why prophets advised us no to think of Allah himself and how He looks Like and what He does and Feels, but rather ponder and admire His magificent Creations
How do you explain the relatively recent appearance of god? It is more than well documented that a great many gods and belief systems predate any idea of a singular penultimate ghost god.
Not according to Islam
there has never been gods ever, it is just historical documentation which is not necesarily true
God has existed since the very begining; :p. ofcourse, He created everything
There has always been prophets everywhere calling people to worship GOD alone, but human beings always went pagan or created whatever other religion they created
It still happens till today
Also, GOD never visited Earth and never will, not even for any certain group of people or prophets; all human beings are treated equally and to let this happen, GOD wouldn't visit anyone and not reveal himself to someone else
It is either to all or none
People see revelations, visions, see hints and messages, But GOD is Exalted to descend down so some people believe
He kept belieiving a choice in man's hands
@Drone, I talk on "Father" in the sense of "Come from".
I took the whole afternoon doing this, thinking if I should put a message of movement ("MOVE" or "A movement" before the message "light" or if the pictures look like real so I'm trying to represent.
Finally I choose this option:
http://i.imgur.com/RVSDk.gif (http://imgur.com/RVSDk)
Imagine another time scale, a time scale as fast as the speed of light.
At that speed, the speed of light, form the moon. In the fraction of time in which the spectrum of light is seen.
I try to condense all the ideas, all the possibilities, mixing and creating something new and more logical.
We perceive time as 24 hours of a turn on ourselves.
But what if that speed, in the beginning, had been as fast as the speed of light?
I try to condense all the ideas, all the possibilities, mixing and creating something new and more logical.
We perceive time as 24 hours of a turn on ourselves.
But what if that speed, in the beginning, had been as fast as the speed of light?
Time is not what clocks show, clocks are just ... clocks - a pair of arrows or any other kind. Time always changes. Space-time is expanding, the scale of everything is changing that's why it's impossible to detect it. To detect it you have to be an observer located outside of our universe which is impossible. Big Bang theory says that Inflation happened faster than speed of light and time flew differently then (much faster). So most likely the universe is not 14 billion year old at all (it's older). EST claims that cosmological expansion is the source of everything, it made Time progress and it created all the energy and energy created matter. In a nutshell: Cosmological expansion -> time -> motion -> existence of quantum world. Big world affects tiny world. And without time motion cannot exist. Space is married to Time.
Oh Drone, please. Forget about Big Bang.
Think of the earth revolving around the sun at a lot of speed.
As fast as the wheel of an F1.
About that time I mean.
At that time each year around the sun, for earth is still a year, but for us, now, at this moment, the translational motions of the earth could have given around the sun could be thousands.
I'm talking about speed reference(related) to time.
If in the beginning, the speed of earth around the sun would have been much greater than it is now, in every year of ours years now, could fit a lot of years of those when the earth travel faster around the sun.
Thus, the transitions between planet formation, creation of life, formation of larger species. Extinctions. Glaciation, pangea transformer in what is now our planet, could have a new interpretation as far as time is concerned, based on speed.
Because tell me. If the earth moved around the sun much faster than it does now,
that year would have the same result for the earth and its evolution than it does now?
Perhaps we may find that although the movement is faster, does not interfere greatly as to the result for the Earth would be. Understand, tides, weather, life cycles.
That way everything is much more condensate, not in relation to our time as human beings, but the time in reference to the speed of the planets.
Get it?:confused::D
Avalon SARL
20-10-11, 19:44
Oh Drone, please. Forget about Big Bang.
Think of the earth revolving around the sun at a lot of speed.
As fast as the wheel of an F1.
About that time I mean.
At that time each year around the sun, for earth is still a year, but for us, now, at this moment, the translational motions of the earth could have given around the sun could be thousands.
I'm talking about speed reference(related) to time.
If in the beginning, the speed of earth around the sun would have been much greater than it is now, in every year of ours years now, could fit a lot of years of those when the earth travel faster around the sun.
Thus, the transitions between planet formation, creation of life, formation of larger species. Extinctions. Glaciation, pangea transformer in what is now our planet, could have a new interpretation as far as time is concerned, based on speed.
Because tell me. If the earth moved around the sun much faster than it does now,
that year would have the same result for the earth and its evolution than it does now?
Perhaps we may find that although the movement is faster, does not interfere greatly as to the result for the Earth would be. Understand, tides, weather, life cycles.
That way everything is much more condensate, not in relation to our time as human beings, but the time in reference to the speed of the planets.
Get it?:confused::D
This is interesting, but complex to understand :p
can you explain more with some simpler examples
This is interesting, but complex to understand :p
can you explain more with some simpler examples
No at the moment. :D
I'm trying, but I have so much information in my head that thoughts travel much faster than the time it takes to write. So I'm in the process of sonic reverberation between my inner thoughts and my thoughts outside. It is very difficult to write well.:o
I do not believe in the Big Bang as I have stated several times here.
I think that each planet is where it is, because it has to be where it is. (Or something similar)
I think there was a movement, a move, a wave, that made all move and turned around and made known through light.
I think for each planet, star or anything visible, palpable or whatever. between infinite speed that process about itself and about the other planets and the picture of the universe we see now, there is a very different time scale.
I do not believe that the universe out of an explosion. But all things had the opportunity to expel theirs breath in a process of heat and cold from the first day. And for some reason, that boiling, on this planet, on earth, there was a sigh, a breath, something that formed the atmosphere around us. Something that made us, our planet, expel water in massive quantities and allowed us to create this atmosphere. Or I don't know.
As an attempt to explain in this gif, craters are not craters done by meteorites(well, some do) but circles that a bubble leaves when it bursts.
So hot and so cold suddenly.
And the real asteroids and craters formed by asteroids, are nothing but the remains of these bubbles of hot material that rapidly become cold and floated in space like asteroid.
Is it? If I were a god and was on my own the very first thing I'd do with my ultimate powers is create other gods so that I would have other beings to talk to. I would make them my equals too (with maybe just a little bit more power in my favour, just in case. lol :D), because relationships with equals are the most satisfying.
Create other Gods and maybe .... um... call them Angels? :whi:
Alex Shepherd
20-10-11, 23:08
I don't want to be against any religion and anyone is entitled to what they want to believe in their life, but I think this is a good question. We might never know the real answer but who created God? I don't really know what to answer but the nearest thing I heard was that God has and will always be there. What do you think. Also if this does feel like it is upsetting what you believe, then ask the Mods to close this thread, the last thing I want to do is to upset anyone to what they believe in.
God is perfect and he is the Creator. If he is not then there would be someone else who created him.
Had you ever think about the end of the space? So this is one of the miracle that plays within your mind.
Create other Gods and maybe .... um... call them Angels? :whi:Yes but, angels aren't god's equals, they're his servants. They do his bidding and have to do what he thinks or he punishes them and casts them out of heaven. According to that particular belief structure anyway.
That sounds like a very lonely existence for god, to me, and not exactly pleasant for the eternally in servitude Angels either.
^ But if you were God, and you created other gods for company, but with slightly less power.....what would you do if one of those created gods disagreed with you or made you angry, or possibly tried to overthrow you and become the head god?
Concerning the universe being cyclical and repeating, with what we currently know about the universe it is impossible. The universe is expanding at an increasing rate. Unless that changes, the universe will end up expanding so rapidly that every atom will be ripped apart and matter and energy will be impossible. The universe will not collapse and start over.
As for the original question, the answer doesn't matter. Even if God does have a creator it doesn't matter to us. We don't answer to God's creator, only to our creator. Let God deal with his creator if he has one. And we must deal with our creator and live by his rules.
Oh Drone, please. Forget about Big Bang.
Because tell me. If the earth moved around the sun much faster than it does now, that year would have the same result for the earth and its evolution than it does now?
Perhaps we may find that although the movement is faster, does not interfere greatly as to the result for the Earth would be. Understand, tides, weather, life cycles.
Why should I? Nothing disproved that.
Earth's motion, its distance from the sun, its angular moment and so on played a big part in Earth life formation. If Earth was a little bit cooler or warmer then life wouldn't be the same. BB doesn't disprove this. It just can't answer all the questions (how was life created and why it was created in the first place and what's the reason). And that's why scientists work on M-theory. M-theory could answer why we have exactly these laws and not others and why we live in this particular universe/space-time. The goal of that theory is to find the Grand Design if it even exists.
Why should I? Nothing disproved that.
Earth's motion, its distance from the sun, its angular moment and so on played a big part in Earth life formation. If Earth was a little bit cooler or warmer then life wouldn't be the same. BB doesn't disprove this. It just can't answer all the questions (how was life created and why it was created in the first place and what's the reason). And that's why scientists work on M-theory. M-theory could answer why we have exactly these laws and not others and why we live in this particular universe/space-time. The goal of that theory is to find the Grand Design if it even exists.
Grand Design or Grand Designer?
Anyway.
Then, the best way they have to achieve this is to start telling some truths. No matter how uncomfortable they are.
That way we'll be all those who think in something real.
And no a fairy tale how they do now.
How can I ask to 8 years old person when I show a picture of a moon crater: "What do you think? This hole is formed by a stone that fell here or a bubble that...?"
-A bubble.
How something that is so evident, even to a child who could only see things in those eight years, is a bubble that has burst and they say that they are the remains of a meteorite?
Why try to continue to justify a theory with so many failures?
Why not go fixing things slowly in the right direction?
Why not seek the truth, really?
Why not please everyone, admit his ignorance and mistakes and move forward in a true direction?
Little by little! Step by stpe!. Nobody would admit a sudden change, a surprising finding unless it is absolutely clear.
As the bubble and the meteorite.
Do you think they may try to sell me another thing other than that?
As for speed, this issue was related to the conversation about fossils and gravity.
We will try to move forward.
That time of superspeed.
I'm agree. Any change in speed, on earth, should have some sort of impact on climate because the time constant would (though that we have no certainty). In this way life would have been very different.
But we go forward in time ...
That first moment has passed and the earth rotates slower and slower. The shape of pangea is due to the unique characteristics of our planet. Water produces that earth can be deformed, but the cold of space, begins to act at the poles and the speed is decreasing. At this point we could find any sign of life on earth. Plant life. That beat the heat and cold and all substances shaking and moving as in a cocktail shaker ferment may produce a phenomenon that created a greenery live .. The pangea breaks and a big bust happens. The speed is reduced and life is transformed again. and seas and plants and earth and fire comes life. other life.
Perhaps animals with giant jaws. Jaws full of pain. Babies full of pain. So desperate, be born then. Dinosaurs like hotcakes elongated, distorted by the excessive speed of the planet. Animals with back in the form of plant. With bones sticking out of their bodies. Displaced by massive force due to the speed of rotation of the entire planet yet. And that is why so great, so much inertia. And another cataclysm. Another land that is dismembered by the cold and heat.
And more, and more slowly, almost as now.
And so, in various processes of slowing down, it comes in which we live.
^ But if you were God, and you created other gods for company, but with slightly less power.....what would you do if one of those created gods disagreed with you or made you angry, or possibly tried to overthrow you and become the head god?I would never use my extra power to put myself above the other gods, so there would be nothing to overthrow. I would make them my equals, but just keep a little bit of extra power so that I could defend myself if one of them went crazy or something. lol. :D
And if one of the other gods made me angry, I'd have to deal with it like I do now with my equals - try to resolve it. Sometimes I would just have to swallow it, and other times, the other person / being would see my side.
Unequal relationships are hell. It's not nice to be the underdog or the overdog. If you want to be loved freely, you have to be equal. Don't you think?
Chug a Bug
21-10-11, 15:54
I don't want to be against any religion and anyone is entitled to what they want to believe in their life, but I think this is a good question. We might never know the real answer but who created God? I don't really know what to answer but the nearest thing I heard was that God has and will always be there. What do you think. Also if this does feel like it is upsetting what you believe, then ask the Mods to close this thread, the last thing I want to do is to upset anyone to what they believe in.
It's one of those circular arguments for which there is no answer, like what was here before the Big Bang? Answer, nobody knows...
Time and space began with the Big Bang, before that there was no time and no space, and no matter and no energy.
So what existed before the Big Bang? Technically, nothing. How do you define nothing? What caused the Big Bang to be created out of nothing? Even the cosmologists don't have a answer for that one.
Grand Design or Grand Designer?.
Design. Design and designer become one and the same, if designer is totally immersed in his work that he becomes a part of his own idea. If not then designer is indifferent to his "child" (aka design).
Why try to continue to justify a theory with so many failures?
Why not go fixing things slowly in the right direction?
Why not seek the truth, really?
Why not please everyone, admit his ignorance and mistakes and move forward in a true direction?
Every theory has its flaws, because we are just mortal humans. We will never find true direction because true direction is not set, it wanders in space-time. But remember, human will never stop. He can fall back but he will continue. He will seek and find the truth.
Every theory has 2 main goals
Number 1: Does the new theory provide better agreement with observations?
And number 2: Are there any new predictions that might confirm it?
Scientists don't waste time. They are working. If BB fails we still have EST. If EST fails there's still M-theory and T.O.E.
Every theory has 2 main goals
Number 1: Does the new theory provide better agreement with observations?
And number 2: Are there any new predictions that might confirm it?
Scientists don't waste time. They are working. If BB fails we still have EST. If EST fails there's still M-theory and T.O.E.
I'm trying to give a theory with a more realistic basis. With more logical explanations to the naked eye and without speaking of particles, or things that very few people understand.
Yeah, I guess that list of inventions is long.:pi:
Anyway, thanks for listening Drone.
edit:
btw, i iked a lot you first answer.
reedit: I always forget to put a link on this (http://novan.com/earth.htm) Quick search, sorry. Other (http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae695.cfm)
Quick search, sorry. Other (http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae695.cfm)
Ah I just noticed this. I digress but whatever...
Yes I've heard that everything will slow down and finally spiral down to its star. It will happen very slowly I don't even know how many years from now. But yes I believe that. EST predicts that also. It's an effect caused by cosmological expansion of space and time. Nice link, nice read.
...it's too much for us to understand.
That's the worst excuse I've ever heard, and every time I mention God and how it started, that's the excuse I'm always given.
psychichammer
28-10-11, 19:20
I believe I and We are God; consciousness. That we are undefinable and our ego-selves are illusion. Awareness has always existed and it is 'thought' that created matter which is illusion. You can look up Alan Watts on YouTube and elsewhere online to get a better idea of this.
Awareness has always existed and it is 'thought' that created matter which is illusion.If (self)awareness is an information then it's more or less "material" because it does exist.
That's the worst excuse I've ever heard, and every time I mention God and how it started, that's the excuse I'm always given.
It's actually the most logical thing to say.
Probably a good thing to do is rather than ask people about God, ask God who he is and what he's like.
Ward Dragon
28-10-11, 23:18
That's the worst excuse I've ever heard, and every time I mention God and how it started, that's the excuse I'm always given.
It's the truth, regardless of whether God is a sentient being or simply the laws of physics. At present moment, we don't have the knowledge, technology, or intelligence to figure out what happened at the beginning. That shouldn't stop people from trying to figure it out, though :) We'd never make any progress if people simply accepted that we can't understand something.
Uzi master
29-10-11, 04:16
It's the truth, regardless of whether God is a sentient being or simply the laws of physics. At present moment, we don't have the knowledge, technology, or intelligence to figure out what happened at the beginning. That shouldn't stop people from trying to figure it out, though :) We'd never make any progress if people simply accepted that we can't understand something.
There's a big difference between not understanding and not being able to understand, the latter is the excuse usually given and the one that is annoying. In my opinion its an incredibly stupid thing to say.
There's a big difference between not understanding and not being able to understand, the latter is the excuse usually given and the one that is annoying. In my opinion its an incredibly stupid thing to say.
So do you understand God then?
That's the worst excuse I've ever heard, and every time I mention God and how it started, that's the excuse I'm always given.
Well I think it's equally silly to proclaim that we know and understand everything about the universe and our existence.
It's not an excuse. It's an infallible and undeniable fact that we do not understand everything, and I don't think we need to, either. It's that way for a reason.
If we knew for a fact that God existed, people would take way too much in their lives for granted. Many of us already do.
Ward Dragon
29-10-11, 14:39
There's a big difference between not understanding and not being able to understand, the latter is the excuse usually given and the one that is annoying. In my opinion its an incredibly stupid thing to say.
People alive today are incapable of understanding a lot of things. The human race will figure it out eventually, but we'll all be dead by then. I think that's more or less the same as saying we can't understand something :p
my theory is that god is a natural force, like wind and rain, and not a physical being, i feel that god was there from the very beginning of the planets creation
my theory is that god is a natural force, like wind and rain, and not a physical being, i feel that god was there from the very beginning of the planets creation
Thats closer to the chinese concept from thousands of years ago, where there is this natural force, that isnt a form of conciousness like god, but isnt unconcious either, its just a balanced force, that even if we dont exist, will still exist.
If there is a God, then who created God
Geez, questions like ths make my head spin. lol
Thats closer to the chinese concept from thousands of years ago, where there is this natural force, that isnt a form of conciousness like god, but isnt unconcious either, its just a balanced force, that even if we dont exist, will still exist.
So technically God exists & doesn't exist?
Now that's a paradox :p
Tyrannosaurus
08-11-11, 23:31
^ This is why I've never understood pantheism.
Ward Dragon
08-11-11, 23:57
So technically God exists & doesn't exist?
Now that's a paradox :p
I don't think that's what he was saying. Rather that the universe seeks balance, which could be called God, and that would happen even if humans didn't exist. At least that's how I read it :)
Avalon SARL
09-11-11, 04:51
I don't think that's what he was saying. Rather that the universe seeks balance, which could be called God, and that would happen even if humans didn't exist. At least that's how I read it :)
Yeah, this is what I understood as well :)
It's like the mobius strip, no?
At some strip point, there is a reason this has no end and can be conceived.
No one created God he has always been there :P
Uzi master
18-11-11, 18:47
No one created God he has always been there :P
Which begs the question, why do we need to have been created when this supposed creator doesn't?
Greenapple968
21-12-11, 01:46
Nothing created God. God is the ultimate creator.
Which begs the question, why do we need to have been created when this supposed creator doesn't?
This is the truth.
If "god" didn't need to be created, then why did we?
Which begs the question, why do we need to have been created when this supposed creator doesn't?
We are eternal, just as everything else in the universe is. 'Created' isn't necessarily the right word to use for us humans. Nothing can actually 'be created', because as you said yourself, all matter and anti-matter equals zero. This must mean that the universe didn't have a cause - it has always existed.
Following this idea, if there is a God, he didn't create us - he just organised all the necessary components to put us together, while an equal negation must have occurred elsewhere, in order for all matter and anti-matter to equal zero.
Either you can't get something out of nothing, or something has to have a cause. Both these statements lead to paradoxial loops.
Dark Lugia 2
21-12-11, 16:12
Not to mention that creation is a man-made concept...
RunrigNutter
21-05-12, 21:30
I don't agree. If creation is made-made; who created us, animals if it wasn't God. I respect your opinion though.
God is everything, so he created himself.
RunrigNutter
21-05-12, 21:39
If God created himself; then it doesn't explain why we have wind. Many thousand of years ago; when science didn't exist; how could we explain wind. Afterall, when we have weather; it's so unpredictable, so you don't know whether it's sunny or wind. Also look at the sun, the stars, million of years old; hyet we don't know why the stars are there.
If God created himself; then it doesn't explain why we have wind. Many thousand of years ago; when science didn't exist; how could we explain wind. Afterall, when we have weather; it's so unpredictable, so you don't know whether it's sunny or wind. Also look at the sun, the stars, million of years old; hyet we don't know why the stars are there.
I dunno, we were pretty good about figuring out the weather by looking outside.
Greenapple968
21-05-12, 22:11
If God created himself; then it doesn't explain why we have wind. Many thousand of years ago; when science didn't exist; how could we explain wind. Afterall, when we have weather; it's so unpredictable, so you don't know whether it's sunny or wind. Also look at the sun, the stars, million of years old; hyet we don't know why the stars are there.
We are only human. A lot of stuff is beyond our comprehension. God made everything how it is for a reason and after death we will find out.
jarekhanzelka
21-05-12, 22:16
God was created by men as far as I'm concerned.
If God created himself; then it doesn't explain why we have wind. Many thousand of years ago; when science didn't exist; how could we explain wind. Afterall, when we have weather; it's so unpredictable, so you don't know whether it's sunny or wind. Also look at the sun, the stars, million of years old; hyet we don't know why the stars are there.
I'm really not sure what you're trying to tell me here. We understand weather patterns pretty well now, and the mechanics were just the same before we had the scientific explanations, so I'm not sure where the question of where deities come from fits into the equation.
Dark Lugia 2
21-05-12, 22:30
I don't agree. If creation is made-made; who created us, animals if it wasn't God. I respect your opinion though.
I meant the concept of creation. :p Because we have created so much on earth, we assume that we must have been created by something as we are so used to the idea. To clarify, I don't believe that everything has to have been created by something. And I respect your opinion as well. :D
Legend of Lara
21-05-12, 23:56
You see, when a man and a woman love each other very much, etc.
Uzi master
22-05-12, 01:42
You see, when a man and a woman love each other very much, etc.
... They use a condom because children are terrible.
And they don't trust whether or not the other has an STI.
In my opinion it is arrogant to assume that we human beings are the pinnacle of all creation.
The fact that we know so little should speak volumes. But we're conscious, so that counts to something. Could be the universe observing itself. Consciousness needs to be somewhere in order for an opinion about the universe to be formed.
dream raider
22-05-12, 11:24
The answer is in the dark matter. :cln:
Tyrannosaurus
24-05-12, 05:26
Two sources that came to mind at the very title of this thread . . .
y4uG3qC6KBw&feature=BFa&list=FLJdqB8quaMdIFLRvQHO9Ahw
And this paper, which deconstructs many of the philosophical assumptions both theists and atheists make:
No Gaps, No God?: On the Differences between Scientific and Metaphysical Claims (http://sonoma.academia.edu/TeedRockwell/Papers/1192954/No_Gaps_No_God_On_the_Differences_between_Scientif ic_and_Metaphysical_Claims)
Anyway, I was always under the impression that a created god was something of an oxymoron, like a square circle. However, even if God is conceived of as the necessary being, a first cause etc., I also understand that these concepts are not necessarily required to account for the universe. Of course, I accept God as the origin of everything, but I won't tout this as a scientific hypothesis.
Better arguments for the existence of God are less abstract and found elsewhere, namely with the moral and existential arguments, and the argument from desire etc.
God was created by an ancient civilization who needed something to justify the way the world operates.
the conditions or physical properties that encompass our reality define what God(a higher power) is ...
skylark1121
24-05-12, 06:38
I will tell you all who created God! D:
------
You see, it was a very sunny afternoon when a disheveled Richard Croft bumped into a random lady and they both fell on the floor. That woman's name happened to be Amelia. The rest... is history. :D
:vlol:
just*raidin*tomb
24-05-12, 06:42
If there is a God he is laughing at this question.
skylark1121
24-05-12, 06:44
If there is a God he is laughing at this question.
He/She/it's also laughing at my previous post. :pi:
I will tell you all who created God! D:
------
You see, it was a very sunny afternoon when a disheveled Richard Croft bumped into a random lady and they both fell on the floor. That woman's name happened to be Amelia. The rest... is history. :D
:vlol:
disheveled - that is such a great word, kind of like discombobulated
Big Bang theory is the most ridiculous thing I have seen.
just*raidin*tomb
24-05-12, 09:25
Big Bang theory is the most ridiculous thing I have seen.
Yeah that show is totally overrated omg.
Yeah that show is totally overrated omg.
Yes, the arguments can be as outlandish as this.
The current findings are destroying the entire orbital theory, but still refuse to acknowledge that the model used is wrong.
robbie_rawr
24-05-12, 10:02
Well gods mammy and daddy gave each other a special hug and....I'm just kidding hes not real. :D
God is the very definition of 'passing the buck'.
patriots88888
24-05-12, 12:04
Three words: Alpha and Omega
God wasn't created by anyone nor anything because He has always been and always will be. I know most peeps have a tough time with that concept (of all eternal) but for me it's really quite easy to comprehend and understand.
So, why is the omniscient god a new one relatively speaking? Why weren't we worshipping Abraham's god more than a few millenia ago? Why did we first have pantheons of gods? Why did Abraham's god only have an epicenter and not a global universal release?
sandygrimm
24-05-12, 12:18
If you don't know, how are we .. also humans supposed o comprehend or know too?
Khaled_Kroft
24-05-12, 12:45
I think the question is ' where are we going to when we die ? '
Stop asking ridiculous questions and just accept the fact that go exists
God is God , Jesus is Jesus ..... They all exist , and if you don't ... well
adios amigos ! :)
I think the question is ' where are we going to when we die ? '
Stop asking ridiculous questions and just accept the fact that go exists
God is God , Jesus is Jesus ..... They all exist , and if you don't ... well
adios amigos ! :)
That's YOUR oppinion.
Not all of us believe in god. Deal with it.
I think the question is ' where are we going to when we die ? '
Stop asking ridiculous questions and just accept the fact that go exists
God is God , Jesus is Jesus ..... They all exist , and if you don't ... well
adios amigos ! :)
Oh look, a comedian.
God was created when humans first had imagination enough to imagine his existence.
God was created when humans first had imagination enough to imagine his existence.
This :)
Adults with imaginary friends? Nah.
lara c. fan
24-05-12, 18:37
I don't get why atheism isn't accepted everywhere yet, and why theists seem to think atheists (Generally, obviously not in every case) as less worthy or something. Don't most religions teach to respect other opinions or something similar?
patriots88888
24-05-12, 19:24
^ What I'd like to know is why those who don't believe seem to think those who do are of lesser intelligence/are less educated. I know for a fact that there are some on this forum who think this way. The lack of respect appears to go both ways.
Not every nonbeliever is like that though.
patriots88888
24-05-12, 20:03
Not every nonbeliever is like that though.
The same with what was said in post #247 (for those who do believe)... which was my point. I guess (certain) peeps just have a difficult time accepting that not everyone shares the same likes/dislikes/beliefs/etc... this forum serves as a perfect example of that.
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